Member: johnlilburnfreemason

You were kind enough to write:
"You'll have to explain further the etymology of "christus". The usual interpretation is that is comes from "christos", or "annointed" - a Greek translation of the Hebrew for the same term. I am also unclear about your comment on Philo of Alexandria. He was a Jewish gnostic writer. Since it is difficult to attribute anything to Jesus of Nazareth other than materials written some years after his death in c. 30 C.E., you will need to be more specific about which statements from Philo have been attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. You can find an online copy of Philo at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yo....["early Christian" sic]"

The translation issue arises from the fact that Tacitus and Plutarch use the word "Christus" in reference to the Christian sect, and the word has no Latin meaning (messiah, annointed, or otherwise). ["Chr" is not Latin, by any etymol/orthography, and no other Latin "Chr" words not borrowed from Greek]. This is one of the many proofs that the Josephus reference [Jew writing in Latin using a word that did not exist at the time; cf "Messias"] was a forged insertion.

In turn, the Greek link is not a contemporary translation of "Jesus Christ" in Aramaic or Hebrew, since no contemporary records refer to Jesus or "Christians" -- although we have many references to Messiah and Annointed associated with other figures other than any crucified or resurrecting personages. No link/ usage with a crucified figure. Many references to Sects, and in other work, for example "Galileans" and "Jesus of Nazareth" in contemporary Apocrapha. Many luminous descriptions of sublime men, among Jews, even Jews writing in Greek (cf Philo). But no Jesus Christ or Jesus the Messiah/Annointed one.

There are Roman/Latin references to historical persons of "Jesus" [as a Latinization/name]. But the coupling with a Messiah is hundreds of years AFTER any attempted placement of a Crucifiction event. Note the word "Christian" is first used in Antioch among Syriac speakers (a Pauline observation --Acts 11:26, cf 1 Pet 4:16]. Paul's letters of course, composed generations later [but prior to any of the Gospels] provide the Greek coupling of Joshua Christos - and "all things are become new in Christ" Corinthians.

A Messiah has long been associated with Jewish nationalism. Zionism certainly burned in the veins of The Baptist, and was the hope of the leaders of three revolts of Jerusalem against Rome. A longed-for "Fuhrer" - which vicious detractors have bent to ironic uses -- or redeemer, is arguably a sustaining hope for all people who are oppressed -- the sermon in Nazareth, just before Capernaum, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath annointed me to preach...deliverance to the captives..." etc. But the key to this lesson is humility, a form of gratitude. It is not affluence, conquest or acquisition or even salvation. He tells the whores and tax collectors he loves them, and tells the rich to give everything away, and then he forgives the soldiers and the Sanhedrin "for they know not what they do".

The Dead Sea Scrolls (unedited by later Christians, such as is the case with the otherwise helpful Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs) reveal no connection or even interest in "annointed ones" as saviors. No link to "Jesus" in any writings in Jesus' time.

Christos is Greek with the "annointed" meaning, not necessarily messianic. "Messiah" is absent in Q gospels. Many scholars view the first linkage (Jesus and Messiah/Christ) as forms of derision. [Harper's Bible Dictionary, "Messiah" at 630]. This fact is not really helpful, since none of the uses of "Messiah" in Jewish writings point to any suffering death. Of couse, the time-frame of the references again speak volumes. I compare Aramaic "Messiah" and Greek "Christ" in the dialogue between the debates with the evangel Greek Christian confession and the Jewish tradition - each is fairly consistent and unadulterated.

Thirty pieces of silver is significant as the cost of a mediocre slave in Jerusalem during the Roman occupation. If there was a crucifiction of a Jew by the Romans, named "Jesus", then they could have written about him as "slave-worthy". The Romans would use their own words - and I have no doubt there were literate Roman Christians in the 1st century after the crucifiction, (and thereafter of course culminating nicely with Augustine, their first doctrinal apologist), they really did not have the belief that a Messiah would come tomorrow. Compare the Zionists and the Greek Christians -- they were all apocalyptic. THAT Jesus would have been "Jesus Messia".

I hope you also find this interesting...I apologize for having to cut this short.

posted by keylawk at 3:53 pm (EST) on Aug 27, 2009

I am delighted with your library. I rarely acquire current works, although there is a hunger for them, and so they keep appearing. Referring to Ahamed's "Lords of Finance", is it convincing? It seems obvious that the bankers certainly helped break the world, but it's more complicated, right?

posted by keylawk at 1:20 pm (EST) on Aug 27, 2009

Just read your post to Pierce. "I am reading a book recommended by a friend: The Pagan nations of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy....I'm learning a lot about the Celtic "tradition" that passes for "history" in our contemporary world. According to Hutton, much of it is not supported by any evidence. Even my favorite - the Mabinogian Legends from Wales - turn out to be a Medieval collection of tales from Greece and Rome!"

Accord, Graves' "White Goddess".

I see on the Wikipedia entry for Philo of Alexandria, this Greek-speaking Jew is apparently credited with many of the ideas we now think were started by Jesus "Christ" (the word derived from "chrestus", or slave) of whom no contemporary records exist. What was it about Greece?

posted by keylawk at 4:49 pm (EST) on Jul 19, 2009

Hi. Thanks for your comment on my profile. The Ferguson book was originally published in 1998 under the title "The Pity of War". German translations are always a little bit off. So I hope I could help you out with that. It's a really great book and he is an absolutely amazing author. Also thanks for the recommendation of "Europe's Last Summer" by David Fromkin. Sounds very interesting. I'll be reading it as soon as get to it.

posted by BBE853 at 7:49 am (EST) on Jun 25, 2009

Hi John,

I've just begun to read Terry Melanson's book 'Perfectibilists', and so far am finding it to be very "illuminating". Of particular interest to me is his documentation of the activities of Illuminati leader Johann Joachim Christoph Bode (1730-1793) during his 1787 trip to Paris with fellow Illuminatus Christian Wilhelm von dem Bussche (1756-1817). The purpose of their visit on said occasion has long been debated, and the "conspiracy theories" concerning it have supposedly been debunked.
The bombshell information is contained in a little-known travel journal kept by Bode, first published in 1994 by German scholar Hermann Schuttler, in which Bode recorded his Paris activities, and in correspondences found in the Kloss archives housed in the Library of the Grand Orient of the Netherlands, between Illuminati Bode, von Bussche, and Ludwig X Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt(1763-1830), published by French historian/mason Charles Porset of the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique.
The evidence shows that Bode was successful, during his 1787 visit, in establishing an Illuminati lodge in Paris, and in initiating several important figures into the Illuminati order. Bode, in his journal, records having initiated Jean-Pierre Louis de Beyerle (b. 1740); Savalette de Langes; Taillepied de Bondy; Alexandre-Louis Roettiers de Montaleau (1748-1808); Francois-Antoine Lemoyne Daubermesnil; Francois-Marie, Marquis de Chefdebien d'Armissan (1753-1814); and Jean-Baptiste Le Sage. (1767-1838).
Bode records, among other things, a July 30th meeting with Savalette de Langes during which they worked out the details of how the Illuminati should operate within France, how to avoid detection by the court censors, etc.

Very interesting indeed!

-Chris

posted by MeetMeInTheStacks at 9:07 pm (EST) on Apr 1, 2009

I have information I could share with you about the Masonic connections of some of the other Illuminati whom I've mentioned- It's just not at my fingertips at this moment. Another known Illuminatus whose biography appears in the aforementioned book is the Austrian poet Aloys Blumauer (1755-1798) who was a member of the Masonic lodge 'Zur wahren Eintracht' in Vienna, and was part of the circle of Illuminati members Ignaz von Born, Gottfried van Swieten, and Joseph Sonnenfels.

posted by MeetMeInTheStacks at 11:15 am (EST) on Mar 22, 2009

I haven't read the Melanson book yet either. I have it on order from Amazon.

A book in my collection- 'A Biographical Dictionary of Modern European Radicals and Socialists (Volume One, 1780-1815)' edited by David Nicholls and Peter Marsh- has some interesting biographies of some of the known members of the order, such as Joseph Brunner (1759-1829), Anton Joseph Dorsch (1758-1819), Andreas Joseph Hofmann (1752-1849), Adolph Freiherr von Knigge (1752-1796), Matthias Metternich (1741-1825) and Johann Georg "Eulogius" Schneider (1756-1794).
I am interested in the prominent role played by many former Illuminati in the government of the short-lived Mainz republic, and in the governmental positions held by some in the French republic.

Have you read 'Fire in the Minds of Men' by Librarian-of-Congress James Billington? That's a very good read...

-Chris

posted by MeetMeInTheStacks at 8:07 pm (EST) on Mar 21, 2009

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to look for the book by Arendt which you mentioned...

posted by MeetMeInTheStacks at 8:44 pm (EST) on Mar 19, 2009

Thanks John,

I'm also very interested in the French Revolution, and revolutionary movements in general- being particularly interested in the period in Europe between 1750-1850. I've recently moved, and I haven't yet been able to fully catalogue my library on this site. Are you familiar at all with the Consortium On Revolutionary Europe? The members' papers are published annually in the Consortium's Proceedings.

Your library is also very interesting.

-Chris

posted by MeetMeInTheStacks at 5:40 pm (EST) on Mar 19, 2009