Discussion: Women Characters in Novels and the "Bechdel Test"

Conversation moved from the What are You Reading thread:

CitizenJoyce said:

So many books, it seems, are able to have one fully actualized female character, but the rest are watered down. In the mean time, there are frequently plenty of fully developed male characters.

Avaland asked:

say more here please, I'm intrigued.

CitizenJoyce responded:

Off hand I'm thinking about my recent read of the Hunger Games series. Katnis is a good female role model, but there was no other female to look up to. Many women were mentioned as being in charge of one thing or another, but we didn't get to know them. Meanwhile we got to know quite a bit about her 2 male suitors and about her male mentor, also about some of her fellow male fighters. Her mother and sister are mentioned, but not followed.

Pope Joan also shows one strong female character, Joan-John. The midwife is mentioned and well portrayed at the beginning of the book, then no other women of note aside from the bitchy, frigid wife of her love interest and the good wife of a helper. A little girl is mentioned briefly and we get the idea that she does well in life, but she is not followed in any way.

Alas, both these books are by women.

LizT added:

I have recently been having trouble as I identify whether the books I read (as well as films I see etc) pass the Bechdel test. I'm sure it's been mentioned on librarything before, but it's a very succinct approach and horrifying how much popular culture fails to have:
1) two named female characters
2) who talk to each other
3) about something other than a man.

Even for items (especially films) which do pass, it still does quite a good job of highlighting the fact that most of the time, it's a throwaway comment - there just don't tend to be multiple female characters with developed relationships in much popular culture, especially that which is expected to be consumed by both genders.

Nickelini added:

Even for items (especially films) which do pass, it still does quite a good job of highlighting the fact that most of the time, it's a throwaway comment - there just don't tend to be multiple female characters with developed relationships in much popular culture, especially that which is expected to be consumed by both genders.

I greatly agree with your concern, so I feel I have to direct your attention to the new film Made in Dagenham. Many female characters--with names--talking to each other, and yes, it's a film that men can watch and enjoy too. I saw it at a film festival last night and loved it. It's going to be released in general distribution in the near future. Here's the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0LF-F1QNAw

>CitizenJoyce, It's interesting to note that both books you mentioned are not set in the present, one in the medieval past and other in a dystopian future.

>Liz T, that's an interesting "test" (I saw it mentioned over on Twitter also) and I notice, according to the graphs, that 50% of the movies listed pass the test. It sounds like a movie only has to contain a scene that passes the test, rather than the whole storyline.

OK, if one cast a critical eye at super-bestselling books written by women and looked at the female characters in the books, what would we see?

I'm talking: Harry Potter, The Hunger Games, and Twilight (and I want to note here that all three series were originally marketed to children or young adults)

And if we were casting the same critical eye on recent (last year or two) prize-winning books:

Wolf Hall, Olive Kitteridge, The Lacuna

Not much help here because I've only read the first four Harry Potter books, and it was back when they were first published, but I suspect somewhere Hermione has a conversation with one of the female teachers about her school work. So technically the book that had that scene would pass.

The test isn't a particularly good way of judging whether a film or book IS feminist, but rather, I think, a way to find films and books that MIGHT be. And of course there are wonderful films and books that fail the test. I just find it a really interesting way to look at the world.

Having used this test for a few months, I've come to wonder something. It's made me notice that not all conversations between two women--even if they have names--that are about a man are the same. For example, in the movie I mentioned above (Made in Dagenham), two of the important scenes are between the main character, Rita, and the rich wife of an auto exec. In one of the scenes they talk about standing up to a male teacher. In another the rich wife says she supports Rita in part because her own husband treats her like she's daft. On the surface it looks like they are talking about a man, but I guess they're really talking about themselves. Anyway, both scenes are very empowering and completely feminist. So I don't think all conversations about a man are necessarily un-feminist (non-feminist?).

Hm, I'm planning a re-read of Harry Potter rsn. I might just keep my eyes extra open while reading it! It certainly has more than two named female characters, but because Harry is in pretty much every scene, it might be quite tricky. Does it count if it's a conversation between Harry, Hermione and Luna (say)?

I can't recall any such scenes in Twilight, but that might be because I've mostly purged my mind of such dross. (Apart from the occasional Tourette-like symptoms of "sparkle! argh!".)

I've always liked the Bechdel Test for movies (well, ever since I discovered it here sometime in the last six months or so). I don't think a movie passing the test qualifies as "feminist", just as reflecting reality. (So far today, I've had numerous conversations with fellow (female) workers, only two of which concerned men: one was a b*tch session about our incompetent manager; the other was about a sick husband (who also works here). I don't see any of the lack-of-discussing-men as feminist, just reflecting our reality as working women and mothers. Which is of course a result of early feminist fights, yay us!)

Although if we need to be feminist to get our reality reflected in popular culture, bring it on. I'm not afraid of the "F" word. :)

I wasn't so much suggesting that we hold these books up to the Bechdel test, as we ask what they are saying about women in general and their position in our culture.

I can't speak for the bestsellers, as I haven't read any of them; and, of the prize-winners, I can only speak about Olive Kitteridge which stands out as a really unusual prize-winner because it's about a woman's life (I have always argued that women win prizes mostly when they write about men). Olive is about a real woman, not some ideal or victim. Oh, she may not be someone you want to cozy up to, but she's entirely credible.

Just wanted to say a quick thank you for sharing The Bechdel test. A very simple device, that I'll be most interested in trying out on the books I read.

Another simple exercise that I've found to be pretty telling is just going through your LT library and count how many books you own that are written by men and have a female protagonist.

Nickelini, I recently saw Made in Dagenham and absolutely loved it! It really made my day (evening) and I've already recommended it to all my female friends. Although, I agree with you that it should appeal to men as well, as its main point (to me at least) is how individuals or small groups of every day people can achieve changes of huge importance for the society as a whole. So hopeful and optimistic!!!

The House of Night series by P. C. and Kristin Cast are wonderfully girl centered and feminist as I remember was Libba Bray's Gemma Doyle Trilogy of which I read only the first A Great and Terrible Beauty. What these books have in common is that the stories revolve around a feminist centered religion. Everything changes is a book if the value of women is changed by religion.

I truly love the Lisbeth Salander character created by Stieg Larsson, but he's written her as a loner with only brief contacts with others.

In The Healer's War Elizabeth Ann Scarborough writes about a modern woman, a nurse in the Vietnam war. She has many interactions with other females, both Vietnamese and American, and they all come off as real people.

In The Elegance of the Hedgehog the characters start off as loners but develop a strong relationship which includes both men and women.

In The Secret Diaries of Charlotte Bronte the sisters interact with each other in family situations and regarding their writing careers.

So religion and philosophy can unite women, as can working toward a common goal. Detective type stories seem to involve loner types, though Helen Smith's Alison Wonderland involves women detectives who work together and have women friends.

Interestingly, I think a lot of the cosy mystery genre actually falls into this category - the Earlene Fowler books set in California have a female central character who has lots of interactions with her grandmother and women in her craft collective, and the Betsy Devonshire books by Monica Ferris have the same kind of feel to them, lots of discussions among a community of women and best friends who discuss crimes not men!

>6 I'm afraid that would take too much time! However, I will say that I do note when I come across a novel written by a man which has a very credible female protagonist. - sounds like another discussion thread! (actually, I think there is a similar old thread).

OK, here's an exercise: Go look at the last three novels (of any genre) you read which were written by a woman and tell us about how the women were presented in each one. Is it a positive representation? A negative one? Something complicated? Is what Joyce mentioned in #1 true in these books' cases?

Mine are:

World and Town by Gish Jen, Zombie by Joyce Carol Oates, and Missing by Karin Alvtegen.

Zombie is told from the viewpoint of a serial killer who has not been caught. There is a mention of his mother, and some grandmotherly attention from the grandmother, but essentially the killer is very obsessed elsewhere. I think the representations of the two women are kind of neutral.

Missing is a psychological suspense novel about a homeless woman who is thought to be the brutal killer of a businessman. The reader does spend some time wondering if she did or did not do it. Alvtegen has created a credible woman, I think, resourceful and bright, but troubled. In particular, I liked the resourcefulness and survival skills of the character so I would give this a plus in the positive representation category. I don't expect fully-realized characters in most genre books. I think Alvtegen's homeless woman is credible but still a bit underdeveloped.

World and Town features a wonderful, fully-realized, complex, independent woman protagonist. She's a half Chinese, retired scientist, and a widow. Complex, I think, is the key world here. She's not an ideal, nor a stereotype, but very much an individual - an excellent positive representation. Jen has always presented women well.

As a matter of note, I looked at the last three novels I read written by men and Buddha's Orphans by Samrat Upadhyay stands out for also containing a fully-realized female protagonist and I think quite credible within its cultural context. There are two protagonists in the story and I was surprised that the woman turned out to be the more developed of the two.

Currently, I'm reading War for the Oaks by Emma Bull, which is urban fantasy about a woman rock musician who gets pulled into the middle of a Faerie war. It definitely passes the Bechdel Test, as protagonist Eddi and her bandmate Carla have plenty of exchanges that don't involve men. Eddi is a strong, intelligent character, and while we don't know as much about Carla (at least, not where I am in the book), it's clear that she is talented, brave, and a loyal friend. The other central characters are mostly male, although the rulers of the two faerie courts are both formidable women.
Before this, I read The Remains of the Dead by Wendy Roberts, which is a paranormal mystery about a woman who runs a crime scene cleaning company and can also communicate with ghosts. This books passes the Bechdel test, but I didn't think it was a very good book overall. Protagonist Sadie is, I think, supposed to be "feisty," but a lot of the time she just comes off as cranky and kind of rude. She has the potential to be a really interesting and complex character, but I just don't think Roberts' writing is that great. Her sister and her female best friend are not that well-developed, although the psychic Maeva is fairly interesting.
Before that, I read Soulless by Gail Carriger, and I think my mention of it in the "what are you reading" thread is what prompted CitizenJoyce's comment about the lack of development in female characters. It's a paranormal mystery set in Victorian times and Alexia is a strong protagonist--smart, capable, independent. Her mother, sisters, and best friend are all a lot less interesting, however. There is a vampire queen and her mortal female "drone" (someone who exchanges blood for the vampire's patronage) who both have a lot of potential, but they just weren't developed in this book.

The last 3 novels by women that I read were:
1. Suite Française
2. A Room of One's Own
3. The Enchanted April

In Suite Française, the major distinction between good and bad people is social class, not gender. The wealthy women are snobs and narrow-minded. However, I think there is still a general theme of men cheating on their wives or not trusting their wives, which makes all of the wives sympathetic characters.

In A Room of One's Own, women are presented very sympathetically. Virginia Woolf makes the point that the lack of funds, formal education and a "room of one's own" have kept women from excelling in literature. They are the victims of a male-dominated society.

In The Enchanted April, I don't know what to think. Women are presented as human, I guess. They have their flaws, their weaknesses, but also their strengths and, most importantly, they can be redeemed by positive experiences. It does seem that redemption is quantified to a large extent by how well they reconcile with their men by the end of the book. Perhaps the exception is the elderly woman, Mrs. Fisher, who finds her redemption by accepting a symbolic position as part of Mrs. Wilkins's family.

k4k

The last 3 novels by women that I read were:

Room by Emma Donoghue
A Secret Kept by Tatiana de Rosnay
Under This Unbroken Sky by Shandi Mitchell

The main female character in Room is a victim of abduction and confinement by a man that grabbed her off a street corner one morning. She is represented as overall positively strong but complicated, especially considering what she has gone through, while trying to protect her young son. Room has some interesting interactions between the female lead and her mom and one interaction with a female nurse, but that is about it for fitting in with the Bechdel Test.

A Secret Kept actually has a lead male protagonist. The females are represented for the most part as varying degrees of typical - some stronger than others, depending on what characteristic you are looking for to be representative of the person. The female characters did not have much interaction with one another. Not much information to pull from there and I don't think it passes the Bechdel Test.

Under This Unbroken Sky has two main female characters that appear to represent two sides of the same coin - Maria is strong, resilient, capable and balanced while Anna is shattered, broken and depressed. It is a one-sided relationship between the two as Maria tries at times to understand what is going on inside Anna's head but Anna won't let Maria help her. Good strong complex female characters here that has left me thinking about the book further since finishing it.

Just finished Jane Eyre and it passes the Bechdel test in flying colours. First example is a young Jane giving her Aunt Reed a dressing down for not treating her well. And there are many more: Jane and Helen Burns; Jane and Mrs Fairfax; Jane and Adele; and Jane and Mary & Diana Rivers.

Another recent read that does well on the Bechdel test is The Women in Black by Madeleine St John.

I recently read The Help by Kathryn Stockett, which definitely passes the Bechdel test.

Though written by a man, Batwoman: Elegy also passes, although this is partly because in this version Batwoman is a lesbian and we see her with various girlfriends in the present and past. But there's also her in relation to her twin sister, her mother, her stepmother; in addition, the villain in this book is also female and the two interact.

Another one that came to mind as passing the Bechdel test is Persepolis, both the book and the movie based on it.

Offhand, I can't think of any others, but if I were at home and able to look at the books on my shelves, I might find some others.

Okay, I knew if I thought about it for a bit, I'd come up with some others that pass the Bechdel test:

- I think anything by Jane Austen should count. Although men and marriage are often the topic of conversation among women, this is not always the case. On a related note, The Jane Austen Book Club also passes.
- There's also the entire No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency series.
- Fried Green Tomatoes, both the book and the movie, involves a close female friendship.
- The Vanishing Act of Esme Lennox, which I read recently, revolves around three female family members and their relation to each other.
- Annie on My Mind, a YA novel, deals with two girls falling in love with each other, so obviously a lot of interaction between the two but not sure if that really counts.
- In Carmilla, Laura recounts how she met and developed an odd friendship with Carmilla - who turns out to be a vampire trying to feed off of Laura so I'm not sure if that one counts either!
- Some others that I don't think of as particularly feminist but pass the test are Never Let Me Go, Gone with the Wind, In Her Shoes, and The Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood books.

Last month I read books by women for African American History month, and they all passed the test:
Mama Day by Gloria Naylor
Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl by Harriet Jacobs
Quicksand by Nella Larsen
Passing by Nella Larsen
The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N. K. Jemisin
The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson
The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks by Rebecca Skloot
Wench by Dolen Perkins-Valdez

strangely enough, even the book I'm reading now, which is by a man Dexter is Delicious (I know, guilty pleasures) has a very powerful female police sergeant who talks, yells at other investigating officers both male and female.

It has been several years since I read it, but how about Unless by Carol Shields -- the mother, (father), and the two daughters -- I think it passes this test -- and it is a disturbing and powerful story.

#17> I think anything by Jane Austen should count. Although men and marriage are often the topic of conversation among women, this is not always the case.

I do like the conversations in Jane Austen, but I'm always left wondering: what is sprigged muslin?

Poor Dad had to read Emma back at High School when he were but a lad, and still shudders at some dialogue about apples, which he reckons went on for four pages. (Did not. I had to study it too, and it only went for half a page!)

Recent reads of mine which probably did pass the Bechdel Test, but I wasn't paying close attention to that when I read them: Started Early, Took My Dog, The Hours, The Help (as also mentioned by sweetiegherkin above), and The Idea of Perfection. And then my memory starts to get too blurry...

Poor Dad had to read Emma back at High School when he were but a lad, and still shudders at some dialogue about apples, which he reckons went on for four pages. (Did not. I had to study it too, and it only went for half a page!)

Ask him if he remembers the conversation that went on for four pages about whether the window should be opened or closed. That's the part of Emma that did it for me. It was my first Austen, and although I liked the language and some of the humour, I found it too yakky, rather tedious, and I was troubled by the absence of serious issues. I've changed my mind about all of that now, and have read and loved all her other novels. Perhaps I should reread Emma and see if I like it better the second time. I'll never forget that endless conversation about the window, though.

Off to research "sprigged muslin".

Google is my friend.

Sprigged muslin = those cotton dresses that we see in the film versions of P&P and S&S

Sprigs - a small shoot or plant
sprigged - decorated with sprigs
muslin - a simple cotton cloth

Can you believe we managed to grow to adulthood and make it through school without Google?

> 20 & 21 - Wow, I've re-read Emma recently (back in September or October I think) and you two have me stumped. I don't remember a long conversation about apples, but there is one about strawberries, which I suspect might be the one you're referring to (although I could be wrong and there's something about apples, too). Although it is probably a page long, I do like the strawberries passage because it's rather amusing - it takes place at a picnic where the characters are picking strawberries and Mrs. Elton starts off by saying how she adores strawberries and picking them fresh is the only way to go ... and then she starts noticing little things to complain about which build up until she finally decides that she hates picking strawberries and retires into the house.

As for the window passage, I really can't remember but it sounds like something that would happen with Emma's father as he is a hypochondriac. I enjoy Emma a lot because of the humor and language, but you're right that there it doesn't really cover serious issues, unlike some of Austen's other novels. Still, Emma's always at the top of the list for me when I'm trying to pick a favorite Austen novel. If you do try it a second time, I'd suggest the audio version with Michael Page. I was little surprised to find a man reading a book called Emma, but he was excellent. He really got the ironical parts, so that a passage like the strawberries one was very funny instead of being tedious.

Just came upon this thread -- very thought-provoking. Going back to the question in post 10, the last three novels by women I read were Bogeywoman by Jaimy Gordon, Who Was Changed and Who Was Dead by Barbara Comyns and Vacant Possession by Hilary Mantel. I am cheating a little because I actually read another Jaimy Gordon, She Drove Without Stopping, after the Mantel, but I thought it would be more interesting to talk about different authors.

Bogeywoman has a variety of strong female characters, but I should note that the protagonist, an older teenager, is bothconfined in an upscale mental institution for a good portion of the novel and a lesbian, so men are less of an issue. I felt for the most part the women were portrayed positively in the sense that they were strong and unusual, but they were certainly all complicated people, with good and bad features.

Who Was Changed and Who Was Dead has multiple primary characters, some who are women or girls and some who are men or boys. Again, each character had his or her own good and bad points, and the women/girls certainly talked about other things than men/boys.

Vacant Possession again features a female protagonist who has certain mental issues and has emerged from a mental institution. She is fascinating, strong, and flawed and a wonderful character. Most other characters (both male and female) are weak in some way, although not weakly portrayed, and the key issues of the book are certainly not men (although relationships between men and women play a role in the novel).

I guess I don't read a lot of books by women in which women are portrayed in a negative way, or in which there is only one main female character. Certainly this can be so in books by men I've read, and in fact in some of these women are portrayed extremely negatively.

I would also say I'm not necessarily looking for "women to look up to" when I read novels, but I'm looking for women (and characters in general) who are interesting and complex, though possibly flawed or worse.

I would also say I'm not necessarily looking for "women to look up to" when I read novels, but I'm looking for women (and characters in general) who are interesting and complex, though possibly flawed or worse.

Agreed. I'm not looking for a role model in my reading and although sometimes someone I can relate to is a nice feature, I'm mostly interested in characters who are compelling enough for me to care about their story - regardless of gender.

#24> No, there's also half a page (not four) about apples, Miss Bates is one of the conversants, and it's there to show how silly Miss Bates is.

I re-read Emma about 8 or 9 years ago now, and didn't enjoy it so much. I may have to wait longer for the horror of having to study it at High School wears off, and then I can find the four pages about windows. :)

I haven't read many recent books that pass the Bechdel (although to be fair, I read mainly non-fiction), but I think one of my childhood favorites, Anne of Green Gables, would pass the test with flying colors, as most of the book's characters are girls and women, who talk about, well, everything. :)

> 27 Oh okay, now I think I recall that passage - something about Mr. Woodhouse giving the Bateses some apples and Miss Bates goes on and on about how that nice was?

>28 Great choice! I've been meaning to re-read Anne of Green Gables for some time now but we'll see when that actually happens...

>3: The point that I've always taken from the Bechdel Test is not that it marks "feminist" themes in books/movies; very often exploring feminist themes requires a focus on male characters to prove whatever point is being made. The Bechdel Test, on the other hand, just highlights a very simple fact that is usually ignored -- women have existences completely outside of men. We form relationships with each other over work and hobbies and families(1), and those relationships can be pleasant or acrimonious, but they would exist even if all the men on the planet disappeared. Men get shown bonding over these things ad nauseum, but women rarely do, because female characters so rarely have existences outside their relationships with men.

So the scenes you describe are certainly feminist, in that they're drawing attention to dysfunctional gender relationships and the way the patriarchy can seriously screw up women, but they don't pass the Bechdel Test, because the scene is still about women reacting to men, rather than to anything-other-than-a-man. And, on the other hand, plenty of books/movies pass the Bechdel Test while being significantly anti-feminist; for example, most of those horrible Katherine Heigl romantic comedies pass the Bechdel Test because she's shown talking with her girlfriends about things like clothes.

My point being that it's important to gauge BOTH the feminism of a work AND whether or not it passes the Bechdel Test; the two things are not at all the same, though obviously they're related and equally important tools in a feminist's arsenal.

---

(1) It's really fascinating to me that even when books/movies show women talking to each other about their families they're more often talking about male children than female children. . . because what, it's more important for boys to be raised well than girls? Or because women and their relationships with each other are only important enough to show if they've managed to produce a son?