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Lexile Measures Added to Catalog

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1jbd1
Apr 5, 2011, 10:47am Top

See the blog post.

Background thread.

Feel free to discuss here!

2BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 11:01am Top

Fascinating. (I feel a bit like Mr. Spock observing aliens). ;-)

3keristars
Apr 5, 2011, 11:03am Top

I poked around a bit and it's kind of interesting, but what do the bars underneath the main Lexile page do? It looks like you're meant to drag them (why else the 'refresh'?), but they don't move or anything for me. (FF4, all javascript allowed for LT by default)

4rsterling
Apr 5, 2011, 11:07am Top

Could we get a "help" link somewhere on that memberlexile page/view? The help link at the top right - for all these new views in Your Books - goes to a generic link for the catalog/your books. Maybe the on left side of the lexiles, there could be a column with a link to a helpthing page?

5BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 11:11am Top

Very surprised to learn that Kant's Kritik der reinen Vernunft has a much lower Lexile rating than 25946963::Absolutely mad inventions by A.E. Brown

(Touchstone doesn't seem to want to stick for Brown even when forced. That's http://www.librarything.com/work/1021161/book/25946963).

6AnnaClaire
Apr 5, 2011, 11:12am Top

I have the same problem as keristars, but in an earlier version of FF (3.6.something).

Also, changing the collection being viewed doesn't change anything, except that some links come up empty if there's nothing at that lexile in said collection. Since the screenshot would be so damn wide, here's the text of what I see with "All collections" selected:
Your Lexile measures

(1), NP (10), 700L (1), 750L (2), 760L (1), 770L (1), 840L (2), 850L (1), 860L (2), 870L (1), 880L (3), 890L (1), 910L (2), 920L (2), 930L (2), 940L (2), 950L (3), 960L (1), 980L (1), 990L (2), 1000L (1), 1020L (1), 1030L (1), 1040L (1), 1060L (2), 1070L (2), 1080L (3), 1090L (2), 1100L (1), 1110L (2), 1120L (3), 1150L (2), 1160L (4), 1170L (3), 1180L (2), 1190L (1), 1220L (1), 1230L (2), 1240L (2), 1250L (1), 1260L (1), 1270L (1), 1280L (1), 1290L (1), 1310L (3), 1330L (1), 1340L (3), 1360L (2), 1370L (1), 1390L (1), 1400L (1), 1410L (2), 1430L (1), 1440L (1), 1450L (2), 1460L (1), 1480L (3), 1530L (1), 1560L (1), 1570L (1)


While this is what I get when I change to Favorites, a much smaller collection (68 books, or 12% of All Collections):
Your Lexile measures

(1), NP (10), 700L (1), 750L (2), 760L (1), 770L (1), 840L (2), 850L (1), 860L (2), 870L (1), 880L (3), 890L (1), 910L (2), 920L (2), 930L (2), 940L (2), 950L (3), 960L (1), 980L (1), 990L (2), 1000L (1), 1020L (1), 1030L (1), 1040L (1), 1060L (2), 1070L (2), 1080L (3), 1090L (2), 1100L (1), 1110L (2), 1120L (3), 1150L (2), 1160L (4), 1170L (3), 1180L (2), 1190L (1), 1220L (1), 1230L (2), 1240L (2), 1250L (1), 1260L (1), 1270L (1), 1280L (1), 1290L (1), 1310L (3), 1330L (1), 1340L (3), 1360L (2), 1370L (1), 1390L (1), 1400L (1), 1410L (2), 1430L (1), 1440L (1), 1450L (2), 1460L (1), 1480L (3), 1530L (1), 1560L (1), 1570L (1)


Once that's fixed, can we get a shiny graph displaying the distribution?

7rsterling
Apr 5, 2011, 11:15am Top

The bars also don't move for me. Also the numbers in parentheses don't seem to correspond to what I get if I click on the lexile. I clicked on one with (4) next to it, and it only showed me one book.

I feel a bit like Mr. Spock observing aliens
Ha - I know. I have absolutely no idea what these numbers/codes mean. Is there a guide/translation somewhere for each number?

Ah, I see that the "map" helps a bit there.

8timspalding
Apr 5, 2011, 11:16am Top

Sorry. The bars should now move. I hate JavaScript minification.

9rsterling
Apr 5, 2011, 11:17am Top

6 - Ah, that would explain one thing I noted in post 7. It doesn't take collections into account, and it's not sensitive to what collection you're in.

10keristars
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 11:19am Top

6> Your Lexiles look different from mine. I have a lot with letters in front, which I have no idea what they mean.

Also, speaking of links coming up different - "NC370L" shows (2), but when I click it, I find 5.

(I'm viewing All Collections.)

11timspalding
Apr 5, 2011, 11:18am Top

Ah. Working on collections. It should take them into account.

12BarkingMatt
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 11:22am Top

Nope, neither the bars nor refresh do anything for me either (FF3.6.16). Firefox compatibility problem maybe?

Fixed while I was typing it seems.

13clamairy
Apr 5, 2011, 11:20am Top

#5 - I see a lot of ratings that have me bug-eyed. As much as I loved The Good Earth I just can't see it having such a high Lexile rating. It's got a 1530L , and Rabelais's Gargantua and Pantagruel is a measly 1340L. LOL

This is fun, though!

14AnnaClaire
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 11:22am Top

>5 BarkingMatt:
I was surprised that the highest-lexile book in my library is The Devil in the Shape of a Woman at 1570, while the Iliad came in at 1330.

I didn't find Devil in the shape of a Woman particularly difficult (and it's made its way into my "favorites" collection. But I had to read the Iliad for class, and even so I a) didn't read as much of it as I was supposed to, and b) only got as far as I did because it was for class.

Edited to force touchstones to just work already, dammit.

15keristars
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 11:25am Top

Another thing I'm seeing - NC1370L, NC1270L, and NC1280L all show the same set of 5 books. (And none of those show a count of 5. Plus, one of those books shows up in 1280L, which has 2, but only predicts 1.)

ETA: I think I see what's happening here. I saw that I have HL#### listings, too, and those all show the same 7 books, which are different from the NC books. So probably if there are letter prefixes, they're confusing the algorithm that knows what to display.

16reading_fox
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 11:25am Top

Needs a (Not catagorised ) option.

Why does the (I) not do anything on the header? It looks like it ought to be an hovertext explanation or link, but it isn't.

It would be helpful to have the basic grades as in the blog post displayed by the numbers.

The bars work fine in IE8

I think the most I have is 7 books in any one category, but its very hard to parse the long strings of numbers.

On the other hand it isn't anything I'll be using so 'Meh' and why can't developers be working on the "Other authors" problem or something.

17clamairy
Apr 5, 2011, 11:25am Top

#14 - So, who can we blame for these numbers, anyway. :o)

Sheesh, now I really want to start a 'What's your chewiest book?' thread somewhere.

18TLCrawford
Apr 5, 2011, 11:26am Top

The ratings seem arbitrary even though I know (?) they are not.

The Fellowship of the Ring 860L
The Old Man and the Sea 940L
Tarzan of the Apes 1270L

I looked at Stephen R. Donaldson, who has the longest most complicated sentences I can think of but his books have not been rated.

19rsterling
Apr 5, 2011, 11:26am Top

Huh: A Handmaid's Tale is 4th grade level (750L). That's just a smidge above Twilight (720L). The first Harry Potter is 880L (6th grade approx).

Is this just based entirely on difficulty of prose?

On their website, it says, "A Lexile text measure is based on two strong predictors of how difficult a text is to comprehend: word frequency and sentence length."

Is that it? How weird.

20AnnaClaire
Apr 5, 2011, 11:26am Top

>10 keristars:
I have no idea what that "NP" with ten books is. The link is right after the ULO (Unidentified Lexile Object) -- and while we're on it, what's up with that???

21timspalding
Apr 5, 2011, 11:26am Top

>15 keristars:

Weird. Working on it.

22Scorbet
Apr 5, 2011, 11:31am Top

>10 keristars:/20

Lexile Codes
AD: Adult Directed
NC: Non-Conforming
HL: High-Low
IG: Illustrated Guide
GN: Graphic Novel
BR: Beginning Reading
NP: Non-Prose

So NP for me has a bunch of plays in it.

23keristars
Apr 5, 2011, 11:36am Top

22> Strange. NP contains, for me, Nothing but the Truth and The Tale of the Unknown Island, which are both prose. Witness is borderline, since I recall it being like prose, but is probably considered poetry or something.

What does High-Low mean?

24AnnaClaire
Apr 5, 2011, 11:39am Top

>22 Scorbet:-23
And "Adult Directed"? Doesn't the high end of the Lexile range cover grad-school stuff? And aren't most grad students adults? So why should "adult directed" be an issue?

25timspalding
Apr 5, 2011, 11:40am Top

Another thing I'm seeing - NC1370L, NC1270L, and NC1280L all show the same set of 5 books. (And none of those show a count of 5. Plus, one of those books shows up in 1280L, which has 2, but only predicts 1.)

Fixed. It was matching on the NL, not the Lexile measure itself.

For weirdness there are two possible sources:

1. Lexiles can be counterintuitive. Books that are for adults, with hard ideas can be easy on the Lexile scale, which looks at the expression alone.

2. We could have got it wrong, abstracting from an edition to the work level.

If something looks weird, you can also check Lexile.com, which has a searchable database.

26BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 11:40am Top

> 23: What does High-Low mean?

You skipped Sesame Street ;-)

27Scorbet
Apr 5, 2011, 11:40am Top

>23 keristars:

I just copied that from one of the "Lexile Range" pages given in the blog post. Promptly started wondering what High-Low meant.

28timspalding
Apr 5, 2011, 11:41am Top

Adult Directed

No, adult directed means a book you read to your kid. Mostly kids don't read Goodnight Moon. It's read to them.

Lexiles are their own little world. It's clear to me that a segment of LT's users—school teachers and librarians—will love it. But they mostly use LT just for cataloging, and aren't on Talk. The rest of you will find a lot to scratch your head over. I'm with you on that to some degree.

29Scorbet
Apr 5, 2011, 11:43am Top

Aha, an explanation of the codes:

http://www.lexile.com/about-lexile/lexile-codes/

30brightcopy
Apr 5, 2011, 11:44am Top

It's useless for me, but so is Dewey. I think it's cool that it's there for the people who will use it. Gives LT one more bullet point of superiority over other systems.

31timspalding
Apr 5, 2011, 11:45am Top

>30 brightcopy:

It's useful for me, for you. I mean, how else would I know that Go dog go! in your library was for kids? It's an instant kid-meter.

32keristars
Apr 5, 2011, 11:46am Top

29> Thank you for the link!

It explains why my HL books are also YA. and HL seems to be the opposite of NC - either difficult content with relatively simple language, or the other way around.

33brightcopy
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 11:50am Top

31> Heh, never thought of that. Good point. Although I'd probably catalog them directly into a collection so it wouldn't matter much to me. But it might be useful when importing, especially if it was available through Power Edit. Very much so if you entered all your books before figuring out what collections are for. But again, that's not me.

Of course, that's assuming that I agree Go dog go! is for kids. I freaking love that book to this day. I even asked for it for a Christmas/birthday present a few years ago (and got it!) :D

34AnnaClaire
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 12:12pm Top

>25 timspalding:
Weird weirdness: Alias Grace doesn't have a lexile, in our system or theirs.

More weird weirdness: Pride and Prejudice has three lexlies: 1100L, 770L, and 1190L. (The annotated version that I have doesn't have any.)

Edited to fix HTML

35timspalding
Apr 5, 2011, 11:58am Top

>34 AnnaClaire:

My understanding is that usually the publisher pays for the Lexile. They've got something like 100k titles in, so it's pretty standard. But it's still spotty on occasion.

36BarkingMatt
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 12:17pm Top

So do we get an average Lexile score in memes, or something like that?

No, I'm cool with this. If it pleases teachers and (school) librarians - great! But it just begs to be made fun off.

p.s.: Neener-neener! My Lexile scores go into higher categories than Tim's*. ;-)

* Don't ask me why though.

37TadAD
Apr 5, 2011, 12:04pm Top

Interesting to try to figure out what is going on. The young adult The Incredible Journey shows as significantly harder than An American Tragedy? Moby Dick, which can be tough sledding at times, has a fairly low score. It would be interesting to see what Ulysses comes in at, but they don't have that in their database.

38lucien
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 12:07pm Top

If I understand the blog post correctly there are lexile scores per ISBN and that LT now has that data. I wonder if this data could be used to help find incorrectly combined works. If a work has multiple lexile scores and there is a large discrepancy between them it might be caused by a children's edition, graphic novel, or abridgement.

I'd think a list of editions (title and isbn) sorted by work then by lexile of works with more than lexile would be a helpful tool for combiners.

39BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 12:08pm Top

> 38: Good idea - if doable of course.

40prosfilaes
Apr 5, 2011, 12:08pm Top

The second highest book in my library, Lexile-wise, is The Tales of Beedle the Bard. I don't know how you measure that and figure that it's more complex then the Harry Potter books. And I love how Murder on the Orient Express is 640L--sans AD--and Oh, the Places You'll Go! is AD600L, as if it were more adult directed.

41keristars
Apr 5, 2011, 12:12pm Top

40> Adult Directed means "adult directing a child" - it's for children's books that the child wouldn't read on his own.

42lorax
Apr 5, 2011, 12:14pm Top

No interest for me -- as many others have noted, it's meaningless for books intended for adults -- but I know this is something people have been clamoring for for ages, so as long as it's not too intrusive on the edit page I don't have a problem with it.

43brightcopy
Apr 5, 2011, 12:17pm Top

38> Now that is a very cool idea that was completely not obvious!

42> I thought it was meaningless, until #38. It's still meaningless to me as a lexile, but could be quite nice as another tool in the combining/separating toolbox.

44clamairy
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 12:27pm Top

#36 - It appears that jbd1 has us all soundly beaten with this 1840L gem, Transgressing the Bounds: Subversive Enterprises among the Puritan Elite in Massachusetts, 1630-1692, Matt.

Edited to add: I have to eat my own words. You have an 1880L in Renaissance and renascences in western art. I think jbd1's book looks chewier, though. ;o)

45BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 12:30pm Top

>44 clamairy:: Don't even ask why it got that score. It's a bit stuffy for non-specialists, but not hard to read.

46rsterling
Apr 5, 2011, 12:34pm Top

There should be a challenge: to write the most intellectually challenging or obtuse book with the lowest possible lexile score.

I'm still balking at the fact that a tool quantifying word variation and sentence length is money-making in the book industry and education sectors.

47BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 12:37pm Top

> 46: Now that would be fun.

48DragonFreak
Apr 5, 2011, 12:37pm Top

Wow, that's cool. Now when I figure out how to actually use the numbering system, it'll be even cooler.

49clamairy
Apr 5, 2011, 12:40pm Top

#45 - I find it all so odd. Did someone say it's the publishers who get to assign the numbers? Or did I dream that...

50BarkingMatt
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 12:46pm Top

> 49: Tim in #35 maybe, but I don't think he was entirely sure either.

51TLCrawford
Apr 5, 2011, 1:02pm Top

I thought that publishers paid to have their books evaluated.

My top score is a paltry 1810L for Workers on the Edge: Work, Leisure and Politics in Industrializing Cincinnati, 1788-1890.

52gordon361
Apr 5, 2011, 1:02pm Top

My highest, at 1580, is First Ladies which is a collection of short biographies that doesn't seem too challenging. Second, at 1500, is An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations. I'm somewhat baffled.

53rsterling
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 1:16pm Top

My highest is at 1840 for Descartes' Discourse on Method (including the French version - Are there lexiles for French too? Or does lexile on LT apply to the work rather than the edition here?) and a history book which I doubt is that hard to read, though perhaps it has advanced and varied vocabulary:
Travel and ethnology in the Renaissance: South India through European eyes, 1250-1625.
Next highest is 1830 with a couple of history books that also don't strike me as particularly difficult or complicated.

Very little of my philosophy and theory has a lexile score. I'd be curious to see where Derrida or Deleuze factored. Some of the authors I did find in the Lexile website's search had surprisingly low scores, such as 980 for this:
Three Steps on the Ladder of Writing. Short sentences maybe.

54BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 1:20pm Top

Or does lexile on LT apply to the work rather than the edition here?

I guess so, otherwise my Kant in German (see #5) would probably not have gotten a rating.

55clamairy
Apr 5, 2011, 1:20pm Top

I found this: "The Lexile Framework for Reading was developed after more than 20 years
of research by the renowned psychometric team at MetaMetrics®, an
educational measurement and research organization. The organization’s
research was initially funded with grants from the National Institute of Child
Health and Human Development, part of the National Institutes of Health.
Today, MetaMetrics continues to pioneer scientific measures of student
achievement that link assessment with targeted instruction to improve
teaching and learning."

From: http://www.lexile.com/

56clamairy
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 1:26pm Top

Oh ho! here we go:

CONS: DIFFICULTIES WITH USING LEXILES

• Not universal. Many schools, libraries, and book publishers do not use these measures at all (because MetaMetrics requests a fee to have books assessed a Lexile level).

• Limited and limiting. Many books have not been assigned a Lexile yet, and kids may feel that they cannot read outside their Lexile range; a 400L may feel restricted to the 12 books that are 400L on the Lexile site whereas at the Library he could choose from hundreds of books right for his reading skill.

• Does not judge content or conceptual complexity. Parents should review the books for their child’s Lexile score for content.

From: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=14&ved=0CCgQFjADOAo&amp...

57AnnaClaire
Apr 5, 2011, 1:27pm Top

My top score is a paltry 1810L... (#51)

Imagine how I feel! I don't even break 1600L!

58eromsted
Apr 5, 2011, 1:33pm Top

Only about 300 of the books in my physical library currently have Lexiles, that's less than a sixth. So this is a rather limited toy for me. I hope the coverage is better for the kinds of books owned by people who want to use Lexile as a tool.

59rsterling
Apr 5, 2011, 1:35pm Top

I think Lexiles are weird, but I think it's interesting data for LT to have.

60clamairy
Apr 5, 2011, 1:38pm Top

#59 - I'm picturing the staff at MetaMetrics doing shots of tequila and tossing the books (and possibly their cookies) onto a large numbered grid, for scoring purposes. Call me jaded. :oD

61timspalding
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 1:38pm Top

Does not judge content

Wouldn't it be great if they were forced to decide what sexual identities and practices were appropriate for what ages to read about?

See why LT's TOS judges expression, not meaning?

62lorax
Apr 5, 2011, 1:40pm Top

I'm really befuddled at why people are playing the "my highest Lexile" game, or caring about the results; it's obvious that they're meaningless for anything beyond middle-school levels, and ludicrous that they even pretend that vocabulary and sentence structure have anything to do with complexity above that level. They shouldn't even bother to assign them. It's a neat tool for people with children's books, but really, I don't give a damn where they think a physics textbook clocks in, because it doesn't mean anything.

63lorax
Apr 5, 2011, 1:41pm Top

61>

See why LT's TOS judges expression, not meaning?

Can we please not drag that up again here? You mean something very different by both "expression" and "meaning" than I do when you say this.

64clamairy
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 1:50pm Top

#62 - "I'm really befuddled at why people are playing the "my highest Lexile" game, or caring about the results..."

Because it's fun! I get a kick out of seeing just how random these numbers appear to be. If that makes me seem even more weird than I already do... well, so be it.

65BarkingMatt
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 1:59pm Top

> 62: Just fooling around. These Lexile thingies are silly, and I happen to like silly.

(And in the mean time checking it out, in case I see any bugs).

p.s.: But, and now I'm befuddled, if these things only apply to middle school level (tops) - then why are there Lexile ratings for works that are clearly at an academic level? There are things there I wouldn't advize for undergrads.

66staffordcastle
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 2:04pm Top

This message has been deleted by its author.

67lorax
Apr 5, 2011, 2:04pm Top

65>

Sorry, I was unclear; I'm saying that despite the fact that they're assigned for grad-level works, they shouldn't be. Sentence structure and vocabulary are not how you judge complexity above a fairly basic level, but the Lexile people are trying to do it, and it's just stupid.

68staffordcastle
Apr 5, 2011, 2:04pm Top

It is amusing! I clock in at 1770L, with "The Three-Piece Suit and Modern Masculinity : England, 1550-1850." But only 68 of my books have them, which is about 1.78% of my catalog.

I'm really curious to see what James Joyce's books would be assigned; off the charts, I'm guessing!

Sorry, touchstone not loading at all for the book.
http://www.librarything.com/work/1315665/book/47795483

69brightcopy
Apr 5, 2011, 2:06pm Top

62> Might as well make the same type of criticisms over on almost everything listed here:

http://www.librarything.com/zeitgeist

There's caveats and problems galore with so many of those categories, if you focus on the individual records. But rolled up, it can be kinda fun. That's pretty self-evident, given that people are having fun with it.

70JonathanGorman
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 2:30pm Top

Like other's, I was surprised at some of the scores assigned the books. However, comparing them to other metrics that I'm aware of, like Flesch–Kincaid, and the scores seem similar. I'm not an expert though, I hadn't even heard of Lexile before.

I mean...
Animal Farm - 1170L
Sometimes a Great Notion - 1020L
Of Mice and Men - 630L

The Flesch–Kincaid info taken shamelessly from Amazon
Animal Farm - 63% are harder
Sometimes a Great Notion - 75% are harder
Of Mice and Men - 96% are harder

From reading in here it's more focused on early education, so it might make sense that the few adult books are more over the map.

I tend to find having more metrics and statistics (how long is average sentence, how many words, number of unique/unfrequently found words) etc more useful than these formula approaches anyhow, but I understand the need for them.

(I must say though, you'd think an organization like Lexile would experiment with multiple metrics and also start using things like comparison of vocabulary found in other books. Maybe they do.)

Also, I've noticed some of my graphic novels/comic books/etc are in the system, but don't have GN. (The Tale of One Bad Rat).

* slight bit of editing to fix an awkward first sentence, then realized I don't really care enough to fix the rest of the sloppiness ;).

71Katya0133
Apr 5, 2011, 2:14pm Top

>23 keristars:, etc.

What does High-Low mean?

"High-Low" is short for "High Interest, Low Reader." They're books written for children who are reading below their grade level. So, the subject matter is likely to interest (or at least not talk down to) older kids (= "high interest"), but the reading level is below that of most books written for that age group (= "low reader").

The library where I work has a bunch of high-low books that are kind of a hybrid between a graphic novel and a regular book. (I suppose the graphic novel part is supposed to help make them easier to read.)

Any teacher or school librarian is welcome to correct anything I've said above—this is just what I've gathered from working with the juvenile collection in a university library.

72lorax
Apr 5, 2011, 2:15pm Top

70>

{I}t might make sense that the few adult books are more over the map.

Oh, it does. I just don't think they should even be trying to put them on the map in the first place.

73andyl
Apr 5, 2011, 2:20pm Top

#58

Only 134 of my books have Lexiles. Out of 3587 that is a pretty low percentage.

The book I own with the highest lexile is fiction (quite surprising as non-fiction generally scores quite a bit higher) and is The Plot Against America at 1640L.

74rsterling
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 2:23pm Top

I'm really befuddled at why people are playing the "my highest Lexile" game, or caring about the results; it's obvious that they're meaningless for anything beyond middle-school levels

Your latter sentence is why I find it amusing to play. I'm befuddled by the whole thing, and I find it amusingly incomprehensible why certain books get certain scores.

ETA - and even the middle school levels include many bizarre results.

75BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 2:24pm Top

> 71: working with the juvenile collection in a university library.

Juvenile collection in a university library??? Wow, things really are very different on the other side of the pond.

76rsterling
Apr 5, 2011, 2:26pm Top

Wouldn't you want a university library to have collections of juvenile literature, for people who are studying/training in elementary education or library science?

77BarkingMatt
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 2:43pm Top

Ah, I see. Neither of these topics are taught at university in my country. They are, what we would call, "higher professional education", which ranks slightly below university level and has its own schools.

You need a higher diploma to enter a university than one of those schools.

78keristars
Apr 5, 2011, 2:39pm Top

My university library had juvenile literature also for the students/employees with children. The school has a large number of "non-traditional" students, and many of them have children. Of course, the education department is quite large and made use of it, but plenty of my friends who had nothing to do with that department would pick out books for their kids after class on Friday, then bring them back the next week. It saved a lot of time and money (rather than having to go to the public library or bookstore). That's how I found out about the juvenile section, actually.

79jjwilson61
Apr 5, 2011, 2:40pm Top

Fiefs and Vassals 1820L.

Maus and Maus II are both labeled NP even though they're graphic novels.

80AnnaClaire
Apr 5, 2011, 2:50pm Top

>79 jjwilson61:
When did they come out again? I remember reading them in high school (and if I'd done college on schedule I'd have finished that nearly a decade ago), and they were hardly brand spankin' new at the time. I think the popularity of graphic novels as a format didn't really take off to the extent of needing a separate code until only a couple of years ago.

81BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 2:50pm Top

>78 keristars:: I find these differences very interesting. Sure, many students and empoyees here have kids too - official stance: their problem. No way a university would provide child care or something like that.

But we're getting way off topic.

82prosfilaes
Apr 5, 2011, 2:53pm Top

This message has been deleted by its author.

83BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 2:53pm Top

> 80: Have they ever been out of print?

84AnnaClaire
Apr 5, 2011, 3:03pm Top

>83 BarkingMatt:
Probably not, but "NP" and "GN" in lexiles are apparently for the book itself, rather than for whether it's been out of print.

85BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 3:09pm Top

Sure, Lexiles have no concern with In/Out of print status. But I was responding to your "When did they come out again?"

86jjwilson61
Apr 5, 2011, 3:21pm Top

I too was a little confused as to why post 80 asked about the print status of the books (my copies could be from the 80's). According to post 22 NP means non-prose, if that's where this confusion comes from.

87TLCrawford
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 3:30pm Top

#62 Sorry lorax, I see it as simply a mindlessly competitive guy thing akin to "mine is bigger then yours".

You see these as having any value? I think they are just another corporate drain on the nations education funding that offers no benefits. A good librarian can tell you anything that these numbers will without an extra charge.

The Fellowship of the Ring 860L
The Old Man and the Sea 940L
Tarzan of the Apes 1270L

Do you believe that The Fellowship of the Ring has shorter sentences than The Old Man and the Sea? That the words are less "frequent" (What does that even mean? Words come one after another in every book I read)

I understand that Burroughs made up a lot of nouns for the Tarzan books but Tolkien did the same thing and, somehow, Burroughs is considerably more difficult?

If this makes LT more useful for educators, even if its only benefit is making it easier for the schools to qualify for funding, then God bless it. However, I see no reason not to heap on all the disrespect this system of nonsense deserves.

Just my opinion, your mileage may very.



88BarkingMatt
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 3:35pm Top

> 87: a mindlessly competitive guy

Now where is that yellow flag when you need it ;-) Aw, come on. I started that bit of sillyness and you all (well, most of you) know me better than that. Just being the looney I always pretend to be. It's a survival mechanism in a world much too serious.

89AnnaClaire
Apr 5, 2011, 3:36pm Top

>86 jjwilson61:
Again, I meant when did they first come out. Go back and read the remaining 2/3 of my post, and you'll see why I asked.

90rsterling
Apr 5, 2011, 3:42pm Top

I see it as simply a mindlessly competitive guy thing akin to "mine is bigger then yours".
Um, I take exception to that. Why are the explanations offered already (we're explicitly being silly) not sufficient?

91BarkingMatt
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 3:48pm Top

> 89: Ah, okay. But that's not what you said before - well, maybe you meant to, but you didn't literally.

As far as I know Maus first came out in 1986, and Maus II in 1991. Not 100% sure though.

92BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 4:00pm Top

> 67: Sentence structure and vocabulary are not how you judge complexity above a fairly basic level, but the Lexile people are trying to do it, and it's just stupid.

Sorry, missed that post of your's before somehow. Exactly! Which is why I've been poking fun at them all along this thread.

But I am also prodding this new feature, just to see if it works, despite of what I think of Lexiles. And occasionally, if I don't see anything seriously wrong, I still report back here with a bit of sillyness, just to keep what's left of my sanity.

93TLCrawford
Apr 5, 2011, 4:10pm Top

#90 Your explanations were sufficient except that I was interrupted while writing mine and did not see any of your before I finished mine. I hope mine also came across as silly.

I just wish those customers would quite interrupting me. ;-)

94BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 4:15pm Top

Customers, nasty smelly customers, we hates them...

95TLCrawford
Apr 5, 2011, 4:26pm Top

They are nice to have when payday rolls around...

96jjwilson61
Apr 5, 2011, 4:36pm Top

89> I see. You said "When did they come out again?" when you meant to say "When did they come out again?". Funny how the exact same sentence can mean different things depending on where you put the inflections.

97brightcopy
Apr 5, 2011, 4:43pm Top

96> Funny how the exact same sentence can mean different things depending on where you put the inflections.

Or, you know, commas.

98MarthaJeanne
Apr 5, 2011, 4:58pm Top

Shouldn't this be on the work details page, and not on the book details page?

99jjwilson61
Apr 5, 2011, 5:03pm Top

For a translated work with several different translations each one could potentially have a different Lexile.

100MarthaJeanne
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 5:07pm Top

The blog post says they 'hope they’ll be unobtrusive to others.' Things in green on the details page pull the eye, and are anything but unobtrusive when I am trying to check what I have entered.

101BarkingMatt
Apr 5, 2011, 5:16pm Top

> 99: True, but see my #5 and #54. That's the Critique of pure reason, in it's original German, in an edition that compares the 1781 and 1787 versions on facing pages. And it get's a lower Lexile than a English language booklet about 19th century inventions (which mostly consists of pictures, by the way).

So, I think we can safely assume that Lexiles, at least on LT, don't distinguish between editions, translations, and such.

102jbd1
Apr 5, 2011, 5:19pm Top

>101 BarkingMatt: - Some changes coming to that, as mentioned in the blog post. Sooner rather than later, in fact.

103jjwilson61
Apr 5, 2011, 5:21pm Top

101> Tim's blog post said that the Lexile score of a book in your catalog will first use the ISBN and if it can't find a match it then goes to the work level which he says is extrapolated from all the ISBNs that make up that work. He doesn't specify how he extrapolates if different ISBNs have different lexile values.

104jbd1
Apr 5, 2011, 5:26pm Top

We're going to be limiting display of Lexile measures to exact ISBN matches (which will, in the process, also eliminate some confusion, we hope!).

105jjwilson61
Apr 5, 2011, 5:51pm Top

104> So if someone has a work in their catalog that has a lexile score but their particular ISBN isn't in the database then their copy of the book won't show it. How much is that going to decrease the number of books with lexiles in our libraries? I know that a lot of the books in my library don't have ISBNs so none of those will get a lexile score. Is the confusion so great as to really justify this?

106MarthaJeanne
Apr 5, 2011, 5:55pm Top

Will you be making some way of not having them dispaly short of removing all ISBNs?

107jbd1
Apr 5, 2011, 5:57pm Top

>105 jjwilson61: - Not entirely our call.

>106 MarthaJeanne: - Display where? On your edit books page, or someplace else?

108MarthaJeanne
Apr 5, 2011, 5:59pm Top

On the book details page.

109jbd1
Apr 5, 2011, 6:01pm Top

They'll be displayed on the book details page, but I suspect you'll notice significant changes when the switches we're making currently take effect (there will be many fewer to be displayed).

110jjwilson61
Apr 5, 2011, 6:02pm Top

107> Not entirely our call.

What do you mean? Is MetaMetrics tying your hands somehow?

111MarthaJeanne
Apr 5, 2011, 6:03pm Top

I really hate the way green stuff pulls my eye there.

112brightcopy
Apr 5, 2011, 6:41pm Top

110> I notice when you search on their website for Gone With the Wind, you only get one ISBN result: 0446365386.
http://www.lexile.com/book/details/9780446365383/

And if you instead search for the two most popular ISBNs from GWtW's editions page, it says it doesn't know what book you mean.

I wonder if part of the "not entirely our call" has to do with claiming a book has a Lexile that doesn't. You can probably get away with it at a work level, but possibly not on the level of an ISBN not in their master list? Just pondering.

113PhaedraB
Apr 5, 2011, 7:05pm Top

Neither my book nor any of my husband's have Lextiles, which is the first thing I looked for. My library maxes out on Knots by R. D. Laing at 1820.

When my husband's first book came out in 1971, they told him it was written at a 12th grade level. A few years later, it was reissued by a different publisher, who told them they would not ask him to rewrite it even though it was written at a college-graduate level. In 1989, the current publisher picked it up, and told him they would go ahead and publish it anyway, even though you would need a graduate degree to read it. True story.

114timspalding
Apr 5, 2011, 7:10pm Top

>113 PhaedraB:

Not at all surprised. I think it means that graduate degrees handed out in past years are now super-duper-graduate degrees, and their recipients gods among men.

115PhaedraB
Apr 5, 2011, 7:34pm Top

114 >

He would be pleased to know he was talking to the Gods :-)

116rsterling
Edited: Apr 5, 2011, 7:47pm Top

"gods among men."

Ha. Yes, and what's the going market rate for a god these days? No really, as a grad student hoping to finish soon, I'd really like to know. ;)

ETA 113, 114, So is it that scholarship is getting more obscure or general intellectual and reading abilities are getting lower, and that 12th graders in 1971 could understand what it now takes a graduate degree to grasp? Or maybe it's both.

117PhaedraB
Apr 5, 2011, 8:45pm Top

116 >
So is it that scholarship is getting more obscure or general intellectual and reading abilities are getting lower, and that 12th graders in 1971 could understand what it now takes a graduate degree to grasp? Or maybe it's both.


The latter, IMNSHO.

118TLCrawford
Apr 6, 2011, 1:54pm Top

Something changed since the silliness yesterday. I noticed that the book I mentioned in #51 no longer has a lexile value listed.

Is the system updating or backing away from the project?

119jjwilson61
Apr 6, 2011, 1:57pm Top

118> Is the system updating or backing away from the project?

See posts 104, 105, 107, and 110.

120jbd1
Apr 6, 2011, 2:01pm Top

They're now running on exact IBSN-matches only.

121TLCrawford
Apr 6, 2011, 2:08pm Top

OK, I think I see now. MetaMetrics charges to "evaluate" not a book but an ISBN. Therefore applying the rating from the hardback, which MetaMetrics was paid for, to the trade paperback printed off the same plates, would be stealing from MetaMetrics. I wish I had a racket like that.

122BarkingMatt
Apr 6, 2011, 2:15pm Top

MetaRackets™

123theapparatus
Sep 17, 2011, 12:02pm Top

I'm sitting here looking at:

http://www.librarything.com/memberlexile/theapparatus

I slide the End bar all the way to the tight and click refresh and it just sits there.

Shouldn't it give me a list of the few works that I have lexile numbers on? I have like 9 listed.

124libraian
Oct 25, 2014, 12:52am Top

How do I find the Lexile numbers?

Sorry to revive a dormant thread so late, but are there still Lexile numbers on LT?

I'm volunteering in a club library, where we shelve the children's books by (more or less) reading level, and I'm looking for an easy way to assign them, rather than relying on my (and other librarians') assessment of the moment. Lexile numbers would be an enormous help here, but I can't find them for a particular book.

Since they aren't my books, they aren't in my library.

125MarthaJeanne
Oct 25, 2014, 2:56am Top

It's on the work details page.

126libraian
Oct 28, 2014, 5:16am Top

I see, thanks. I was looking at a book that didn't have a Lexile number assigned to it.

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