Add Esperanto to the list of languages
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Dear Professional Staff of Library Thing,
You need to add Esperanto to the pop-up list of languages in which groups conduct themselves. There are between 500,000 to 1,000,000 Esperantists on Earth. Esperantists are by nature international communicators, and the amount of Esperanto-language traffic on the Internet has been estimated at roughly half that of Italian, which makes Esperanto a very significant Internet language. In addition, it is estimated that 30,000 to 40,000 books have been published in Esperanto, which makes it a significant written language as well.
Please let me know your decision.
I'm sure the humility of your request is leaving them speechless.
Are all "Esperantists" this pushy, or is it just the ones on the Internet?
It's always so pleasant when people with just 1 book on the site blow into Talk and start telling folks what they NEED to do.
Personally I think it rather evangelical to ask people to "become an Esperantist". Rather insulting to those who consider themselves Esperanto speakers and do not want to be part of an "Esperantist" sect or an "Esperantist" religion.
As an Esperanto speaker myself however I would add that the Esperanto study course http://www.lernu.net is now receiving 123,000 hits per month.
That can't be bad :)
Dear friends; some weeks ago while working on publisher series in Esperanto as Stafeto, Beletraj kajeroj, Belliteratura serio, Oriento-Okcidento etc. (I tagged related books with …•epo and "to dos" with …•epo-X; these books can be sorted by the comment field depending on your catalog setup) I noticed that
I was not able to insert cannonical titels in Common Knowledge in Esperanto. Many works are imported with improper selling from various book sources due to character encoding problems.
Having Esperanto as a language for Common Knowledge is a must. I did not post much at talks because I was busy adding author pictures, Common Knowledge, links etc.
Today I also noticed that group "Esperanto! does not show up at Explore groups by language because group setup does not offer Esperanto as language option there.
This should be only a setup issue. I assume that is a configuration issue of less then 15 minutes. Thank you very much for all your efforts. Best regards and greetings from Munich Germany.
Uups! fixed html (the links did not show up)
A curriosity note: I used Russian as Common Knowledge language to create a list of Esperanto authors (Эсперанто many with new pictures and WP links). There are more hundereds to come ...
Ah! So there is a hierarchy of librarything members; more books, more right to a hearing. Once again I find myself consigned to the voiceless underclass. "Esperantists"? Quotation marks as a textual sneer?
Wow! It is a day for rudeness. JohnT.DaleJr., I personally think your request is reasonable and stated in a most becoming fashion.
I don't know much about Esperanto or the Esperanto/ist(?) community, but FWIW I also thought the language request perfectly reasonable, and was confused by the hostility of the responses.* OP, you might want to drop one of the staff an email with your suggestion, in case they don't notice this thread.
*(Even weirder, poster 3 seems to have joined only to post that message, and I think it's actually spam, since someone identically named has been posting links to that site all over the internet.)
He might had posted it as spam but the site is legit (and popping up anytime when Esperanto is mentioned). Not that it is a good idea someone to just show up and post it -- that actually pisses me off most of the time... sounds almost like shoving it down everyone's throat with no real reason and alienating people from the site.
As for the community - you have your extremists and you have people that simply speak and enjoy the language but do not subscribe to the "Let's use that for international communication everywhere" crusade :)
A short explanation of languages and LT would I think be helpful.
As well as the main site LibraryThing.com there are copies of the site in other languages www.LibraryThing.de for German, cym.librarything.com for Welsh etc. One place where you can get a list of these is to select zeitgeist and then languages. All are connected to the same database of 64 Million books, but each has its own Common Knowledge. The way these site have been generated is that a for each phrase used - "Jump to first unread" and "Groups you admin" are two examples on this page - are stored in each language. When a new language is introduced all the phrases are set to those used on the English site, and the users of the language are invited to contribute translations. Thus the new language sites evolve, some more successfully than others.
The available "group languages" options are the languages of these sites.
Having a local site requires someone to do the translation... which makes it a bit restrictive - we do have a Bulgarian version because I spent a lot of time translating (and need to get back to that). I am keeping my own profile out of there though because it is screwing up the stats (I have more books than all other members combined...)
Adding a language for a group can be a first step for identifying new languages for that... So I don't see why this list should not be the list allowed for books... :)
a) The statistic "Language: Esperanto" (on LT) lists the counter 520
Originally in Esperanto. It seeems that this counter has not been updated since long time. btw: As can be seen at Language: Hausa showing the counter 12 but listing one work only we can see the need of two counters (one for works and one for copies) and an indication (timestamp) about when the statistic was made.
b) "TagWatch will return shortly. Work in progress." tag Esperanto shows: Using the tag Esperanto
LevGalicia (2634), gangleri (734), Bibliotekisto (304), acmf (155), prosfilaes (57), nealmcb (47), Micheletto (43), jhbadger (40), Budz888 (36), agrao (25), Josxko (24), sowdman (17), stancliff (17), MMcM (17), klerulo (13), stevo (12), walterggreen3 (11), casuistry (11), illinoisray (11), ioan_glan_tawe (10), bca (8) ... and 217 other members
My catalog sorted by timestamps (when I added the books) lists 797 books.
c) Esperanto is using the following special characters not included in the basic Latin character set: Ĉ, Ĝ, Ĥ, Ĵ, Ŝ, Ŭ, ĉ, ĝ, ĥ, ĵ, ŝ, ŭ. There have been many ways used in the past to encode these characters in varoius catalogues from combined diacritical marks, substitutions (either ch, gh, hh ... or cx, gx hx ...), usage of UTF-8, simplification etc. The result is quite chaotic.
Examples for required LT Common Knowledge canonical titles:
c1) not Aŭstralia antologio but Aŭstralia antologio ...
c2) not Duonvoce but Duonvoĉe ...
c3) not Ĉiu-Ĉiun but Ĉiu-Ĉiun ...
d) There is a lot of Common Knowledge cleanup required for:
d1) Honora Membro de UEA
d2) Akademio Internacia de la Sciencoj San Marino / International Academy of Sciences San Marino
d3) Akademio de Esperanto / Academy of Esperanto
d4) Esperanto and Эсперанто
from my FF bookmark list of involved authors: (hardcoded to www - English LT)
>5 gangleri: Note on the …•epo and …•epo-X tags:
"TagWatch will return shortly. Work in progress.".
Books where I added (publisher) series so far: …•epo
To dos: …•epo-X
Depending on catalogue column customization you may sort on the column "comments". This way the series will be sorted ;-)
P.S.. replaced && in links with &
Now if you slow down and say in human terms what the problem is, that might help.
The special characters exist in a lot of Central European languages - if they cannot be used really in CK, that's a real issue... I believe they can be used now? Although we cannot use canonical title in Esperanto on the English site.
As for old records - the same problem exist in a lot of language - including German and the Scandinavian ones. And it will keep showing up because the sources are the same mess. We just need to combine...
#14. What the fuck?
Are you talking to us or preaching?
A really strange thread for an
"internatural language for common communication".
What went wrong?
Re. #17 "Are you talking to us or preaching?"
Exactly. I have never encountered an "Esperanto fan" on the web who was not a pushy jerk, insisting that their little pet made-up language had to be accommodated by what ever site, organization, database, etc. they showed up on. Can you imagine if the "Klingon fans" were making the same demands (especially with how all the assorted diacritical marks appeared!)? At least with the Klingon folks, the aggressive demanding would be in character as opposed to the "kumbayah" official line of the Esperanto groups. I suspect that Esperanto appeals to a particular type who would otherwise spend their lives being "a little Hitler" at the DMV or similar governmental morass ... the sort who gets their biggest thrills from telling you that you didn't fill out the paperwork exactly according to regulations and so they're rejecting it.
>14 gangleri: The list is about to dos. If you look at my contributions you may understand that there are many things to do here. The problem is that the corresponding language for Common Knowledge in Esperanto is missing so far.
btw: I learned that language in 1978 in Romania and contributed in 1979-1981 to two books published in the University of Timişoara. With a group of many closed friends we made the dictionaries ro-eo and eo-ro with both having 10,000+ words. I met all kind of "experts" on that language during the decades ...
>17 guido47:, 18, OK, chill (please?). We all know that this kind of communication sometimes misses people's intentions. I thought the request in #1 was quite polite. 14 and 15 might be a bit over-technical, but hey, so what? Tim will either say yes or no. AnnieMod obviously understands at least part of the problem. The rest of us don't have to get so bothered.
That's his way, not just Esperanto-related. You should see some of his old threads in Combining (hey gangleri) :) It is just technical stuff - in most cases it is really useful but way too technical :)
>18 BTRIPP: I have never encountered an "Esperanto fan" on the web who was not a pushy jerk
Nice meeting you then... Although I am somewhat offended by your... definitions. Wonder why. You might want to reconsider your suspicions on who the language appeals to. Oh hold on, maybe you did not even realize that you have another "Esperanto fan" in this thread - I don't seem to match your definitions so I don't exist or what? :)
I said it above - there are different people that use Esperanto. Some are pushy and they are a lot more visible. Some are not. Same as with any group of people. People usually would not push that much for a language that has native speakers (although I do know people that raised their kids with Esperanto as native language) -- an artificial language is just a tiny bit different in that regard.
And it is not about accommodating -- maybe I was pushy back in the days when I asked Tim for adding Bulgarian (if I remember correctly - I tend to do that on a lot of sites when BG is not an option and I might have found it here already setup)? Esperanto is a language and has books written in it. It is normal for people to want to use it...
A site is missing as well technically :) Fancy translating LT in Esperanto if we convince Tim to get it added so translations can be started? Because we cannot have CK if we don't have a language site (as someone pointed out) although I wish we could use the CK as a first step (as I mentioned above). And not all of the Esperanto speakers speak English (so Esperanto CK will help for the special symbols so we can see what the book is... but in the long run it won't help anyone that does not speak English to actually have a better grasp on the site. Just thinking aloud.
I know Esperanto so I know what they are talking about. And working with various languages that use different alphabets (Bulgarian is my native one after all), I am usually on the short end of any issues that LT has with encoding :)
Re. #21: "I don't seem to match your definitions so I don't exist or what? :)"
Well, you would certainly be "a first" in 30 years!
:) Or maybe you just never paid attention to the not-so-vocal part of the community :)
Don't get me wrong - I know the pushy type and they annoy me as much as they annoy you I suspect. But not everyone is like that :)
How interesting! How did you end up learning Esperanto?
Got bored and stumbled upon a site while searching for something else :) I love languages so decided to try it - they have a free course with a real human checking your exercises. It was more a game than anything else initially... I was on a mission to learn to count to 10 in as many languages as I can... and ended up never doing that but learning Esperanto instead. Its ordered grammar actually helps deal with a lot more complicated grammars (not that the Bulgarian or the Russian or the German ones are easy but I can see how it can be used to introduce people to the concepts so they can understand better the grammars with a lot of exceptions.
But I would never push Esperanto to anyone - for me it is a language, not a political platform. And one of the things that make it somewhat preferable sometimes (together with Latin, Ancient Greek and any other classical language) is that it has no native speakers (the odd few exceptions notwithstanding). So I was on a common ground with a native English speaker. If I had found a site that was allowing me to learn Latin in the same way instead, I would have done that I suspect - the whole thing was really a case of luck - at least initially. Besides I like the idea of an eas-ish common language that can be used in cases with no other common languages... How well it works is a different story - I can understand any speaker of Esperanto but the way the sentence is ordered and the choice of some words over others in most cases give away the family of the native language of the speaker. Still - I can understand it. :)
These days things are different but back then (not so long ago really), my written English needed a lot more work. :) It's actually easier for me to use English these days... but I still like Esperanto and use it for reading occasionally (and for translations Eo->Bg on various Esperanto-related sites).
#18: I have never encountered an "Esperanto fan" on the web who was not a pushy jerk, insisting that their little pet made-up language had to be accommodated by what ever site, organization, database, etc. they showed up on.
So now people who have ponies you don't need are pushy jerks? It's a nice place of privilege, being an English-only speaker who gets everything handed to them and can sneer at people who need support for other languages.
I see Hitler's name has surfaced in this exchange. That'll be the same Hitler who outlawed Esperanto and sent Esperantists to the labour camps.
His spirit lives on.
>27 JemmyHope: That's life! I know people with a high opinion about themselves which would never give a dime to a beggar.
LT is a place where you can find many sources related to a sentence / a quote from Schindlers list "Saving one life is saving the whole world.".
re. "preaching": Budapest is a place where notable examples of help to other people happened. To understand that Esperantists learned what world the want to have I can tell you what happened to me at the eave of 1981 in Budapest. I was still a Rumanian citizen and participated a Esperanto New Year meeting where around 300 people where participating. I decided never to return to Rumania and survive in the underground if necessary. I asked 150 people to help me to go West. At the 2nd of January a Croation friend asked me: "Reinhardt did you get help?" I answered "No." He answered "Take my passport." I went that evening by train to Vienna. He got the passport back in 24 hours via friends. We met again during the next years at various E-meetings. I was never able to return similar help to another person but the amount does not matter.
That is a wonderful story, gangleri. Congratulations! See, that is what I love about LT -- I get to learn about other parts of the world and other people's perspectives, as well as finding new and interesting books to read.
Back to the subject: if Tim can take the time to do Pirate Talk (which I think was very worthwhile! Smirk!), I think Esperanto would not be unreasonable. How does that work? Does someone have to volunteer to continually translate, or is it a one-time thing to translate the major headings for work pages, talk groups etc. Obviously I am very naive about the process.
It is a continual translation effort but anyone can help once we start. So as long as it gets started, people can chime in and whatever is not translated is seen in English.
The big translation usually happens pretty early and does not get changed much :)
". . .add Esperanto to the pop-up list of languages"
I have nothing for or against Esperanto, but I think a more useful revision would
be to replace the pop-up list altogether: Just give us a chance to type in what-
ever language is applicable to the book that we're entering. Then, I wouldn't have to
compile a list, containing, like " Hawaiian, Hawai'i CReole, tongan, Maori (Etc.)..."
The advantage of the popup list is that then all listings for a language are the same. If you typed in what you said, someone who entered Hawai'i Creole would make a different listing than your CReole - and someone who typed in Hawaii Creole would make yet another (just as an example).
#31: Have you ever looked at a system that had that? The list of languages runs English, Englifh, Eligish, French, Francois, François, etc.
I don't understand your objection, prosfilaes (33), that "the LIST of languages runs (etc.)" There wouldn't BE any list in what I'm proposing, just a space for typing in the name. I could understand the argument -- "I like the list --the way it is or reformable", --though I don't myself like it. (Addendum 07/28: and Iʻm not talking about the languages of Groups, here, just about languages that can be called "Primary, Secondary, or Original language of a particular book.
Another member and I have discussed this in messages. You can read this member, Roberto's, commentary, which is in Castillian, in the message Section of my Profile. He favors adding "gallego"* to the existing list, just as the adding of Esperanto was suggested in this thread, but he also raises the question of HOW it would be expressed; "galego" or ""Galician", (like your mention of "Hawai'i Creole" vs. "Creole".) But that's irrelevant to what I'm suggesting, as it wouldn't become part of a list.
*Gallego: Romance language of Northwestern Spain; or, some would say "dialect" (or Portuguese) rather than "language".
But that's irrelevant to what I'm suggesting, as it wouldn't become part of a list.
Actually, it's incredibly relevant, Roland. Take a look at, say, this page posted by gangleri. There's a list of languages to the side there. If, as you suggest, we allow people to fill in the languages for themselves, lists like these will get cluttered with typos and people referring to a language differently. It would get unwieldly and cumbersome to use. Language names could be combined, sure, but it's still nowhere near ideal. A standardised list doesn't have those problems because everyone will, by necessity, use the same word and the same spelling.
I know we're talking group creation mostly, but the same issues still apply.
(Edited to polish up phrasing a little.)
And then we will count how many mistakes can people make while typing a language name. I have experience with a similar system - what ended up happening was a combination system for languages so we can indicate that English, Anglese, Englis, Inglish, Amercan, USAn (real examples by the way) and so on are the same one. It was fast replaced by a list. And LT already has a long list(the one that you book can be written in) - technically speaking if a language is not there, you cannot put books in that language so it makes no sense to have CK in that language...
The above proposal to add all languages available for book languages makes much sense. Exceptions should be the options ";(blanc)" , "mul;Multiple languages" and "und;Undetermined":
To see this list of language names in your actual LT language proceed as follows:
a) edit one of your books; go to the language setup ("Primary language")
b) select the "show all languages" (if not already displayed);
c) you may look at the source code of the page and search for either "div class="languageMenu" or "select name="field_lang"" or "id="field_lang"" or "select name="field_lang2"" or ""field_lang2"";
d) the LT language options will follow with language codes and translations for your LT language.
See them sorted by language codes and English names:
afh;Afrihili (Artificial language)
cai;Central American Indian (Other)
cpe;English-based Creoles and Pidgins
cpf;French-based Creoles and Pidgins
cpp;Portuguese-based Creoles and Pidgins
crp;Creoles and Pidgins (Other)
gmh;German (Middle High)
goh;German (Old High)
hat;Haitian French Creole
idl;Thingamabraian (the ideal language)
luo;Luo (Kenya and Tanzania)
nai;North American Indian (Other)
nbl;Ndebele (South Africa)
pro;Provençal (to 1500)
sag;Sango (Ubangi Creole)
sai;South American Indian (Other)
++++ end of list
If I have some time I will add to this list corresponding language codes from http://ethnologue.com/ relations to ISO639-3 and WikiMedia Foundation language codes. Example:
☛Ethnologue: http://ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=per per Not an Ethnologue 16 language code
>>> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=per (per) Persian
>> >> http://ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=fas (fas) Persian
>> >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/special:SiteMatrix#fa (special:SiteMatrix#fa)
#36: http://www.archive.org/browse.php?field=language&collection=opensource is a live example of such a list. I count 15 tags for Spanish, not including multiple languages stored in one field.
>37 gangleri: would solve also No accessing English Common Knowledge from other sites
The three you mention are basically added to the standard list to allow LT to deal with strange situations.
The list itself is pretty standard.
But it really comes back to something simpler - what is the point of having CK in LanguageA if there is no site in that language? The idea of the multilanguage CK is to make a local site complete (it has its quirks and troubles but that is the idea)... not to gather all data available for a book.
:) Yeah - they still deal with that.
The list itself is pretty standard.
The list itself is just some ISO standard.
starting from > 31 trough > 37 ...
When expanding the available languages for CK one should also expand the available languages for "groups_edit.php". While the option "mul;Multiple languages" might not make sense for CK it should be available for "groups_edit.php": see "Cighid" where "mul;Multiple languages" can not be selected today.
I can see the point of adding 'other' to the list of group languages. Adding Esperanto when the group that is using it only has three messages added this year seems unnecessary.
"I can see the point of adding 'other' to the list of group languages. Adding Esperanto when the group that is using it only has three messages added this year seems unnecessary"
Well, the main language of the group *is* Esperanto, not other :-). The easiest solution would be to add the ISO list used elsewhere on the LT site. Perhaps there will never be a group using Yao or Tlingit, but why have more work in maintaining two (or more) separate language lists, when you can just put a reference to The Mother Of All Language-Lists? Which, on the book pages, I believe, has a "20 most popular" mode, that makes all the exotic languages go away until you click "all" (or something, too lazy to check on the page).
Esperanto Day, is celebrated on 15 December, the birthday of Esperanto creator L. L. Zamenhof. It is the most widely celebrated day in Esperanto culture.
Could LT manage to start eo.librarything.com until that day? Else I believe that Santa could be very sad ...
What does the o in eo. librarything.com stand for?
(OK to answer in English, Dutch, Esperanto, Latin, Spanish, Hawaiian, Tongan or French)
I suspect it came by its code from the first and last letters: Espiranto.
That is, as in Maine
And es was already taken (for Espanol, with that squiggly thing over the n).
That squiggle is called a tilde. The HTML for the letter N wearing one is ñ -- ñ.
To take off from the title of this Thread:
Why can we not:
Add HAWAIIAN to the List of Languages ?
My wife can write it, but thatʻs not the main reason for adding it.
It is, among other things, one of only 3 or 4 languages that are official languages* of a U. S. state.
*The other "official" non-English languages are Spanish and
(unless Louisiana has dropped it) French.
Thanks, justjim. A good llsting, and There are in fact a
lot of languages on that
list that I would like to see added to the Language Menu
What I was arguing in June was not the adding of a
particular language, but the feasibity of writing in''the
name of whatever language is wanted for a partlicular
entry, Technicallyimpossible! is the consensus answer,
if I'm reading this thread rightly. THe main objection
was that different people have different ways of referring
to aparticular language, e.g. does one say "Gaelic" or
"Irish", or "Irish Gaelic"?
This wasn't applicable to what I was suggesting,
but I've begun to accept that the answer is "NOT feasible".
Why isn't it feasible? Sorry, I don't understand. I thought AnnieMod said it just takes volunteers to do the translating.
"Why isn''t (writing in a language name) feasible?" (57)
I don't know either; just accepting that on faith. I'm
getting the idea that whateveris written in* would'
not be a one-shot deal, that it would have to become
part of a data base -- compiled from it and the other
write-ins. Correct me,anybody,if I'm wrong.
* #37 doesn't address whatever is wrong
or right about the idea of the write-ins, But,
to my mind, as list to replace the current
list, it would be good.
Having people write in languages would mean that you could no longer do anything interesting with the language fields. They would be an incoherent mess; take a look at http://www.archive.org/browse.php?field=language&collection=opensource and despair.
And for what? The current list has just about every language. I'm missing Klingon, but that's on the modern version of the list--the problem is Tim not updating the list, not the list. There are theoretical holes on the list, but mostly of languages that aren't written. To switch away from this list would serve virtually no users of LibraryThing. Even if it were an unquestioned good, it probably wouldn't be worth Tim's time.
What would be nice, and much more useful, is being able to select our own languages for the short list.
I've added Esperanto, both as a site and to the list.
Best of luck!
Thanks a lot Tim! I noticed it 5 minutes before. Have a nice weekend and take care of your dog. My twins are in a new place since I was in the hospital in October last year.
Esperanto isnʻt on the last Language List I looked at
(02/17, ca. 8:55 PM EST)
Where? It's on the nav when you're signed out, and on the Zeitgeist.
"Where (is Esperanto not listed?) (63)
I meant (62) it is not listed
in the "pop-up List of Languages" as mentioned
in Post # 1 of this thread. I
thought that was the list
were talking about throughout most of this thread.
"Nav" is new to me. I did
see the mention of Esperanto
in Zeitgeist, and I notice
that we Latinists are "ahead
of" it in membership"
by some 565 - 5!
Sorry, what do you mean the "pop-up list of languages?" Languages available to new groups? (They're there.) Where else can you mean?
#65: I think what he means is the short list of languages that pop up when changing the languages for a book.
Ah. That won't be changing. It's a short list. It has to make cuts. Everyone's mileage will vary. It's why we have the longer one.
If someone says they'll translate it, I'll add it. But I don't want it to end up like Maori.
". . .to end up like Maori." (71)
Since Iʻm interested in all the Polynesian languages, Iʻm curious: how DID Maori
I also have to ask (at the r isk of sounding like a former president) what does "it" (as in "if. . . they ʻll translate IT") mean? If you mean a non-English languaage into English, I went to the link given in #70, and that was already in English. So how does "translat(ing)" enter into it?
Roland, new LT language sites need to be translated from English (they all start as a clone of the .com site) into the new languages. Hawaiian and Maori, among others, would be right up your alley!
there is also a group LibraryThing in Maori
a tag search /groups/tag/Maori
a Zeitgeist page /zeitgeist/language/mao
the last is correctly linked to the Maori translation page http://mi.librarything.com/translations.php
(while the Esperanto translation page http://epo.librarything.com/translations.php does not have a link to Esperantlingvaj tradukoj - this was reported elswhere and was not clear enough)
see /topic/135240 "Links related to Maori"
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