I didn't see a topic especially for introductions, so here goes ...

Wow, I'm so happy to have found this group I wasn't even aware existed. To simply read through your posts and realize that there are many other people who share my dismay and disillusionment with religion is so refreshing and inspiring. Thank you in advance for reading ideas, fellowship, and a general sense of shared enlightenment. :)

Hi ryner, and welcome to our fine little group. I may be biased, but I think you will find the coolest of LibraryThing’s members here. It’s a fun bunch. Ready everyone, big group hug... ;-)

*hugs*

Welcome ryner.

toot cute, ryner. a pleasure meeting you. love the hard hat.

Welcome, ryner!
The more the merrier, as they say.
:o)

a general sense of shared enlightenment... I like that.

Welcome, ryner.

Welcome, Ryner. Looking at your catalogue, I would say you might also enjoy the merriment & witty banter to be found at the Green Dragon.

yeah, this is a great group...oh, I hope someone told you that everyone here is GOING TO HELL!

Well, maybe just Heck.

Watch out though, I hear there are Satin Worshipers here. (I prefer Polarfleece myself).

Hell's fine by me; it's the prospect of an eternity in heaven that scares me!
;-)

You’re not kidding Busifer. Can you imagine what the music is like up there? Not to mention the company ... Oh, and there’s probably a potluck picnic everyday!

Do they serve ambrosia salad and macaroni salad and tuna casserole? HOw about Jello? Do they have Jello in heaven and does it come from the hooves of animals that have been bad and are in hell?

I'm sure they have coffee, but it's probably really bad watered down coffee.

Doesn't matter what they serve, or what the amenities are.

They have a "no pets" policy.

If I can't meet up with my pets there, I'm not going!
We all know I'm not going anyway. ;o)

oh no, you got it wrong...you see, hell for you is having to live eternally in heaven...no one gets out of it!

As I've said on other threads, if my dogs aren't there, it's not heaven. Perhaps Arctic-Stranger is right, and that's how I'll know I'm in hell...

Anyone ever heard that song by Elvis Costello where hell is all the little irritating things or things that are slightly off. It's called "This is Hell" and it's on Brutal Youth.

“They have a "no pets" policy.”

Yeah, and now we’ve learned that there will be lots of crying babies there, too!

PS Thanks for giving me a hearty laugh myshelves!

They have a "no pets" policy.


What? My dog isn't in heaven? What kind of place is this heaven?

>17 Yeah, and now we’ve learned that there will be lots of crying babies there, too!

Sorry, that's my fault. I keep asking for restaurants to include a "child-free" section. It's absurd how many expensive meals in fine dining restaurants have been ruined by screaming children.

Sartre said "Hell is other people." And being a dyed in the wool introvert I can only say. It's so true.

Myshelves, I think you got it wrong. It was a "No Petting" policy. You can have pets, but only St. Bernards and Angelfish.

Artic, are you saying there's no sex in heaven? Now I really don't want to go there!

Hullo, ryner! Welcome aboard.

As far as heaven goes, I'm assuming they won't let in cats named after wizards. Well then, hell it is! C'mon, Gandalf!

(This was sent to me as an e-mail long ago, & more recently posted on an LT thread.)

A man and his dog were walking along a road.

The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead. He remembered dying, and that the dog had been dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them. After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble.

At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight. When he was standing before it, he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother of pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold. He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side. When he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, where are we?"

"This is heaven, sir," the man answered.

"Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" The man asked.

"Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up." The man gestured, and the gate began to open.

"Can my friend," gesturing toward his dog, "come in, too?" The traveler asked.

"I'm sorry; sir, but we don't accept pets."

The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way he had been going.

After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road which led through a farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence. As he approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book.

"Excuse me!" He called to the reader. "Do you have any water?"

"Yeah, sure, there's a pump over there" The man pointed to a place that couldn't be seen from outside the gate. "Come on in."

"How about my friend here?" The traveler gestured to the dog.

"There should be a bowl by the pump."

They went through the gate, and sure enough, there was an old fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it. The traveler filled the bowl and took a long drink himself, then he gave some to the dog. When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree waiting for them.

"What do you call this place?" The traveler asked.

"This is heaven," was the answer.

"Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "The man down the road said that was heaven, too."

"Oh, you mean the place with the Gold Street and pearly gates? Nope.

That's hell."

"Doesn't it make you mad for them to use your name like that?"

"No. I can see how you might think so, but we're just happy that they screen out the folks who'll leave their best friends behind."

That’s fantastic!

Awwww.

And thanks for the friendly welcome, all. :)

That made me smile, myshelves. :)

Hi all, I'm visiting to check the place out thanks to an invitation from clamairy. I have had a variety of experiences, ranging from wonderful to horrifying, with several organized (and less so) religions. I'm not currently participating anywhere, but I definitely haven't ruled out doing so at some future point. I'm not antagonistic to those who embrace some flavor of organized religion, except when they've decided that it's the only way for me as well as for them. I tell such folks, "I'm a militant agnostic: I don't know and neither do you."

Welcome, Jim53! I invited you because of the post you made yesterday in the Christianity group. It seemed like you'd make a nice addition, here.

I'm with you. I haven't ruled out anything, BUT I will admit I'd be a very hard sell. I'd need something like a personal note from god that was certified by a Notary Public, at the very least. ;o)

I've ruled out some things that are blatantly impossible or contradictory. One definition of agnostic says that the agnostic sees no reasons to believe or disbelieve in a god. I see plenty of reasons to disbelieve in the oxymoronic gods people have told me about!

Beyond that. . . I'm an atheist. The Greek prefix "A" for not, added to theist. Not a theist.

Is there life on other planets. I do want there to be! It seems probable, doesn't it?? But there is no evidence that it is the fact. (Unless you have "faith" in abductee stories.) So I do not believe in life on other planets. I'm an a-life-on-other-planets-ist. Does that mean that I rule it out. Hell no! If SETI picks up something that can have no other explanation, you'll hear me cheering, wherever you are.

Saying that I don't believe in something doesn't mean that I'll ignore any evidence that comes along showing that it exists. It doesn't say whether or not I'd be pleased to find out that it does exist. (Unicorns would be nice. Banshees not so nice.) But without any evidence, I do not believe.

Jim53,

I don't know . . . a guy who goes around implying that God doesn't care about football. . . . That's a lot worse than a heathen or an atheist. :-)

Clam,

Damn near anyone can become a Notary Public. (Though there was a 1961 Maryland case, Torasco v. Watkins, in which an atheist had to go all the way to the US Supreme Court to become one.)

Anyway, that's a pretty minimal demand for proof. :-)

"I'm an a-life-on-other-planets-ist." That makes you an Aloopist.

Ah, thank you, WHL. I'll use that and confuse the unenlightened. :-))

#30 - "Anyway, that's a pretty minimal demand for proof. :-)"

Hence the winky that followed my statement. ;o)

Funny you should mention it, but I got this note from the Almighty yesterday wherein S/he states:

1) Disco is the proof of the Fall.

2) Baseball was invented in heaven; football in purgatory.

3) Sex was a practical joke and whenever the Divine and the Angelic Hosts get bored, they tune in on our sex lives.

4) The highest life form on earth is actually the cockroach; If we really knew how enlightened they were, we would worship them.

5) Cats got all the negative aspects of deity; hence the aloofness.

6) The preferred language in heaven is French.

and finally

7) Death was an experiment gone awry. We were never intended to die, but the whole Cain and Abel thing got so interesting for the observers, that things got way out of hand before they realized it and before they could do anything about it, Cain was dead. (They writers of the Bible actually got the story wrong.) But while everyone was looking at the dead Cain, one of the Angelic observers blurted out, "Hey, this could affect that coming population problem we have been worrying about!" so they decided to keep it.

(Yes all this is divine revelation. I will be leading a group of idiots...er...disciples to my new enclave in Barrow, Alaska, to prepare for the second coming of Elvis.)

#34 - Bwaa haa haa!!!!!!!
Very good stuff, Arctic.

Damn. I don't speak French. Well, I know how to say 'cheese.'

Vous ne parlez pas francaise? Quel fromage!

Artic, I read the whole post before I realised it was you! I should have known. Do I have to move to Alaska, or can I start a chapter of your religion down here in the lower 48?

Jim53, you should hang out in the Green Dragon. They're really into fromage there.

I like it, Arctic. But I just read the "Prophecy" posts to various religious groups. 27 years of direct dictation from Jesus would seem to top your one note. It looks as if I'll need to learn German. Quel dommage!

Has anyone else noticed that the Happy Heathens explore issues of ethics, morality and our place in the world with far more thought and analysis than other perhaps less heathenish sorts? It seems that no matter where you start from, curious theologians of any religious tradition ultimately arrive at the same universalist neighborhood and end up surprised at how much they all have in common.

I hadn't thought much about it, varielle, but you are on to something there.

I will say I have noticed these stats:

Happy Heathens (1430 messages)
Christianity (1396 messages)

Christianity (467 members)
Happy Heathens (142 members)

We're a lot more chatty than a certain other group, despite the fact we have 30.406% of their membership numbers. ;o)

Perhaps we have more to think and talk about.

I always thought faith must be very limiting.

We all want to be happy. We just want other people to allow us to be happy. I think that's what is great about HH. We get it.

It's Friday afternoon. My deck installers are finally working. My work is done for the day. And I have a pint of Warsteiner keeping me cool (after a pint of some good Czech stuff).

No matter what anyone says, I shall remain happy!

And Scary - anyone read my latest short story? Can't believe I get paid to have fun!

scary, which story is yours?

Sorry.

Puppies.

added: must be getting forgetful in my old age, although it could be two pints of excellent beer . . .

mmmm, beer, arghhhh . . .

Ooooo. Puppies would work with me, too. *shudder*

Puppies, kittens... cheese. I'd be toast.
Nice job, SCARYguy.

*shivers*- shouldn't have read that at 11pm, on my own with the wind howling outside.

>34

Too bad you didn't think of this plan a few years ago. Here in Portland, we used to have a 24 Hour Church of Elvis. (As Dave Barry would say, I am not making this up!) Prior to its demise, this was one of the favorite sites in Portland to take visiting relatives, and a favorite wedding site for those not affiliated with traditional religious institutions.

The actual "church" is temporarily closed, due to landlord issues, but they still have a website where they are selling Elvis merchandise in an attempt to raise money for a new location.

Gallery shots of the former 24 Hour Church of Elvis in its glory days.
www.24hourchurchofelvis.com/picturegallery.html

Has anyone read St. Dale by Sharyn McCrumb?

Yeah ... I don't do auto racing, but I love her writing, and to my surprise I enjoyed the book. It features a group of diverse pilgrims on a special tour of racetracks.

She postulates that there are modern secular saints, such as Elvis and Dale Earnhardt, appearing at Walmart or a race track, answering the prayers of the devout, . . . .

So why not churches? :-)

Hello Heathens! I thought I'd stop by and say Hi, how is everyone today?

TANE!!!! Welcome!!!!!
:o)

JPB, darrow, Atomic and I all know Tane from BLT*!
He's a big part of The Green Dragon, too.

*BEFORE LibraryThing. ;o)

That's right, I'm a big part of the Green Dragon... mostly the belly ;-)

(and evidently not very funny).

Wait a minute clam, are you suggesting that there *was* life before LibraryThing?

Anyway, hi Tane.

Hey Dodger... nice group you've got going here, an enlightened bunch o'folks, for sure.

Thanks Tane, I’ve tried, though I’m pretty sure I can’t take credit for all of the enlightenment!

Yay, Tane-y goodness arrives to grace the Happy Heathens. What took you so long?

#53 dodger, there was no life before LibraryThing. Some say that the LT Server was created by a supernatural being in 6 days. He then created the first two members. There is no evidence for this except for ancient on-line documents of dubious origin.

LT's origins began with The Big Crash. Code appeared spontaneously, followed by a period of rapid expansion. The groups and members evolved over time.

Very good, darrow!

And on the seventh day, Tim rested. Well, he tried to, but I'm sure something needed tweaking. ;o)

We are not alone. I believe there is life on other servers. They look just like us.

Other servers? Really? Next you'll be saying that this server really isn't flat! Preposterous ;-)

and Littlegeek, I think it took me a while to really discover my Heathenness, but now I'm here, I know I'm in the right place.

What do you all think....is LT expanding indefinitely, or will it reach a critical mass and collapse on itself again, starting the need for a whole new cataloguing universe?

I think that perhaps there are a whole bunch of LTs just fractions of a nanometer apart, and every time someone uploads a new book another LT comes into existence... including, somewhere, an LT full of miscatalogued books.

He he. Darrow, clam, littlegeek, Tane,

Thanks for starting my day off with a smile!

Perhaps you can explain what this business is about some sort of burning mainframe that supposedly spoke to John? ;-)

#57 an onward... I just laughed my ass off!!!!!! And that's not always a good thing at work, in an office landscape ;-)
But, guys, you just made may day a whole lotta brighter and that's worth anything!

So, Busifer... are you going to join the group? Hmmm?

:o)

So, I actually believe I have, as of some weeks ago?
As I remembers it it must've been somewhere in april, but my memory don't work to well right now ;-)

OH! All I remember is that you said that you wanted to read the posts for a while before you decided. LOL

So sorry.

I am glad you're here.

I did say that, and then I waited some weeks, and then I decided to join!

I'm glad I'm here as well, and today I had a discussion over lunch about related issues with a colleague. Interesting.

I'm trying to interest him in LT, and I think my mentioning of this group may have tipped the scales...

I'm just glad to see you back Busifer, we missed you! I think you'll fit in great here in HH land.

Would people be offended if I called this group a Godsend?

Oh, and I've just picked up a copy of The God Delusion, the number one Happy Heathens book ;-)

71: I just finished that one yesterday. Great stuff.

But as usual, the fact that such a book had to be written in the 21st century fills me with despair. :/

Thank god! I found you.

Been sharing this guy Jesus birthday for a while and a bit POed about it. Oh, ok lets keep Christmas. The pressys I mean.

Like to think I am a little bit pagan a little bit buddist with a touch of zen, but what do I know.

Am I still the only person with Unintelligent Design Why God isn't as smart as she thinks she is.

Cheers

KimB,

The social page says 10 people have the book. But no one has reviewed it. How about doing a review? Is it as good as the title?

73: Keep Christmas? I say we bring back the old versions of christmas, before christians messed it up. I mean, just read Wikipedia's description:

"Yule logs were lit to honor Thor, the god of thunder, with the belief that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year. Feasting would continue until the log burned out, which could take as many as twelve days. In pagan Germania (not to be confused with Germany), the equivalent holiday was the mid-winter night which was followed by 12 "wild nights", filled with eating, drinking and partying."

A 12-day party!

#74 I'm not quite up to a review at the moment..but in answer to your question...BETTER!

#75 Sounds good but where are the presents! Must keep St Nick....or are u telling me he isnt real either.....
In my part of the world it is Santa Klaus and he wears boardshorts, thongs and drinks beer.

Must go....have to read little women to my daughter...I kid u not! But she will follow in her mothers footsteps and not be swayed by godlyness.

I joined your group yesterday and just noticed this thread. Thought I would stop in an introduce myself.
I recently made the decision to stop attending the church we have been attending for years. Several reasons for it but mainly I just haven't gotten anything of it in years. Things about the bible have always bothered me. When I would question certain things that bothered me I was always made feel like something was wrong with me not the bible. I just didnt have enough faith. Honestly one of the biggest complaints I had was I was tired of feeling like second class because of being a woman. I am sick and tired of the sexist views of the SBC (Southern Baptist Church).
Anyway I promise I won't get on a soap box about the church. Glad to be a part of your group. =)
Kathy

Welcome Kathy!

I took the advice to become like a little child in church. Watch them - they're bored out of their skulls and want to be somewhere else. I followed my child-like heart to the silver-lining of freedom! ;)

Cheers,

Scary

The more the merrier, I say!
:o)

Welcome, Kathy.

Indeed, welcome! And by all means, feel free to climb onto a soapbox anytime here! ;-)

I decided to finally join after seeing this group mentioned so much in the Green Dragon.
I also need fresh ammunition for an employee of mine who is Methodist and constantly praying for my salvation. I keep telling him that one day, God will hear him and She'll strike him with lightning! *grin*
Plus he's a conservative Republican and I'm a Damn Liberal Democrat. *snicker*
Makes the shift go quickly...

Well, as the landlord don't seem to be around at the moment I take it on myself to welcome you over here in this, eh, heathen, corner the LT universe :-)

Landlord, LOL. Is that me? Hmmm, that reminds me Busifer, I haven’t recieved your rent check this month!

Anyway, welcome AnjilaG! And just tell your employee that you don’t mind him praying for you, but see if he could get his god to get you a(n) _________ (fill in the blank) while your here on Earth. ;-)

Well, this IS your house, isn't it? ;-)

So, I'm monitoring this thread, thinking "gosh, it's great to have a place to read and express my views on spirituality and the state of our world (that would be the mental world as well as the physical world)" and it's nice to know a few of my fellow-travelers a bit better. Then, looking through this thread from the beginning, I noticed that I have not introduced myself (here). Sorry about that.

So, I consider myself a graduated Roman Catholic. I have moved beyond the confining structures of traditional religions, and find myself worshipping just about everything equally and nothing primarily. I like the fact that we humans are still struggling with ultimate questions, but I find the regular "religions" particularly stifling when it comes to complexity and the like.

I am, professionally, an IT operations and policy analyst. I am paid to think outside the box of IT, though, and find my work to be very challenging and rewarding. Unlike other computer-oriented analysts, I get to look at business processes and try to revision the process (rather than trying to replicate an existing process) before we consider any IT solutions, and I am asked to take an enterprise view of things. Heady, but very interesting work.

And we humans are all about information processing, aren't we? Happy Heathens is a comfortable place for me, because we seem to be OK with being (and talking about being) outside the box.

Nice work! I was a systems analyst for a bank back in the days of massive deregulation. We had just installed a new mainframe and the Burroughs people (anyone remember Burroughs?) were writing the software for it. I was the guy between the users, software writers, and hardware guys.

It was a cross between the seventh level of hell, and a dream job.

Seventh level of hell! LOL. Most of my immediate circle of peers think that we are creating a new form of heaven on earth, but can't describe it in words that the rest of the universe would immediately understand. Kind of like Babel.

:)

I was an IT geek for Y2K. That may have been the 8th level.

When we were doing our work in 1983, I started asking what would happen when the year 2000 rolled around, because we were just coding two digits for the year. The answer I got was, basically, "I won't be working here at that time; let them worry about it later."

Aha! Thanks for trying to fight the good fight, Artic, for all the good it did.

#86 - Do I "remember Burroughs?" he asks. Ha! I worked for Sperry back in those days. Your company bought my company and became Unisys. "The power of two." (Not.) I worked on the program design specs for the navigation system for Trident submarines, among other things. I wasn't too happy there. LOL

Burroughs kept me in work until finally the bank realized that they were being taken for a BIG, LONG ride, and went with IBM. But I was long gone by then.

One of my job was to evaluate "microcomputers." I had a Burrough PC, a DEC, Digital, an Apple Lisa (!), and several CPM machines. I bucked the trends and recommended two upstarts: PC-DOS (which later merged with Microsoft to become MS-DOS) and Macintosh. Neither was proven at that stage, and everyone knew that C/PM was the better system.

i'm glad i found this group.

24> great story about dogs in heaven - i'll assume foster dogs & homeless pups are welcome as well :-)

35> no worries! all you have to know how to say in french is Voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir? it'll keep a smile on your face

91> cool sounding job -- too bad it wasn't enjoyable

Hello - v happy to find this group here. I live and work amongst a lot of God fearing people here in NW London - in fact my best friend is a follower and I have been to her baptism etc etc. God has never appeared in my life thank goodness and never will. My kids are being raised with morals and self belief but are free to look at religions if they want - (well they have to at school). When they school visit a religious establishment I advise my daughter to find out if women are able to do the top jobs there. My experience is that the school ignores this aspect of religion.

#94

School visits to religious establishments?

Please elaborate.

>95 In middle school my 8th grade Honors Social Studies class took a trip to a Catholic Church during our Reformation studies.

Absolutely. Over year 4,5,6 visits school visits to Neasden Hindu Temple, Hari Krishna Temple, Synagogue, C of E church, Mosque as part of National Curriculm RE.

That's interesting. I'm guessing that the visit isn't just sightseeing, but involves a lecture/interview featuring someone connected with the place?

Yes for example at the Hindu temple they sit in on a ceremony whereby the doll like Gods are served food and prayer. It's all explained to them by a worker or rep with the history and customs given and they can ask questions etc, they then go back to school, write reports and discuss.

Hello,

I've posted a few times, but thought I should properly introduce myself. I'm pretty new to LT, and while fairly internet-savvy, I've never belonged to a "group" before. I like it.

I was raised in a dogmatic Christian denomination and have been working furiously ever since to reclaim my brain. At present, I am challenging subconscious beliefs and patterns.

I've noticed how unwilling people are to think for themselves where religion is concerned, and I'm really glad to be able to talk to people like you. So, thanks for having this group.

BTW, I'm a believer and I don't need anyone else to believe what I believe. Talk to you soon.

100:

I like how you phrased that: "working furiously ever since to reclaim my brain."

:)

I have been on LT for about three weeks and I am totally addicted to this place! I love having a place to talk about books I am reading and ideas that are floating around. I was in a fanatical Christian... well "cult" is the best way to describe it. They controlled every aspect of my life and even had me "confessing" some my thoughts and dreams as sins. I left and have not returned to religion. I have sort of bult a philosophy about the spiritual realm, but I tend to avoid organized religion altogether. It is nice to have a place to chat and refine my thoughts on things! Great group!

welcome jan w. I haven't officially introduced myself either, I am a retired school teacher and quite committed to being free to discuss everything. I enjoy this site. My "religious" background consists of being very committed Christian in high school and college - actually a great way to escape from a depressing home and socialize with people. Left "the church" when my congregation could not bring themselves to support a political issue on the ballot which made descrimination in housing against the law! I could not believe anything they said after that blatant uncharitable stance. Have not seen or heard anything since (45 years later) which tempts me to rejoin a religious group. I much prefer life lived on its own terms.

Hello everyone. I'm glad I found this group, too. I was raised in a negligently Catholic home, and then discovered Wicca/Paganism in high school. That was fun for a while, but the more pagans I met, the more I realized my beliefs didn't really jive with that either. I'm currently firmly in the realm of Agnostica. Not quite a full-fledged atheist, but I find the idea of organized religion absolutely abhorrent. I'm not looking for someone/-thing to take responsibility for my life situation, but rather a better understanding of the world around me.

I'm currently reading Reading Lolita in Tehran, which among other things, constantly underscores the destruction caused by mixing religion and politics.

I've been reading HH for awhile now and finally joined/posted. Originally, when I first saw the group's name in the Talk page, I assumed it was a pagan group (i.e. some neo-pagans, especially the Asatru, refer to themselves as "heathens").

As an infant, I was baptized Lutheran; then later was raised basic Protestant Christian and, later still, in a much more conservative Calvinist-Baptist vein, in which my much-loved parents remain today.

I am fascinated by religions of all kinds and study them constantly, and always try to be respectful towards people of all (or no) faiths, but don't adhere to any myself, aside perhaps from a loose practice of some Buddhist tenets.

I'm also a new member, and glad to be here, and if I'm in the wrong area or if I'm upsetting the rules of this site, let me know. Apart from being an atheist, if you want a label, I'm also a heavy reader. I'd like to review a book that was issued this year and is a wonderful odyssey for our times. If you're one of those people who skip to the end of reviews for a sound bite I'll be kind and start with one: (Jude: Level 1), by Julian Gough, is that rare thing, a novel that's funny and beautifully written.

For those who like a bit more meat in a review I'd say this is funny, stimulating, vividly exciting, and brilliantly written without a single boring cliche in sight. It's got a bit of (Douglas Adams) in it, and a smattering of (Flann O'Brien). A small portion of it got minced up with (Beckett), enough to get you imagining some great Irish heavy drinker like Jack McGowran. His fruity voice would be exactly right for this story of serial demolitions. McGowran would probably embroider the whole mad story into the creamy top of his Guinness. How often do you come across a writer who can make humour deep? Joyce of course, Beckett certainly, but it's pretty thin after that. Nutbeam's party in Annie Proulx's fab (`The Shipping News') gets close to the same feeling, so if you enjoyed that one you'll go for this one.

Okay, who the hell am I to say this? I'm just a painter scratching a living who happens to be a fan of reading. I'm also keen on exploding buildings, and this novel manages to destroy lots of them. It also runs circles around those everyday Oirish accounts of hard times, famines and gangsters. Despite having several orphans in it the story doesn't for one moment get syrupy, and every time an orphan gets killed you'll laugh.

I shall be rooting for the next bits of this story on the net. I'll be ordering the hardback as soon as I can. It's a cheerful book with a skewed logic of its own, and I hope it becomes a major prizewinner. I want to see it issued as a film; as a range of kitchen utensils; and most of all in a signed limited edition, bound in the skin of the Salmon of Knowledge. You'll just have to read it to find out what the hell I'm talking about.

Anyway, I wrote something very similar on Amazon, and in case someone thinks that kettle666 is a pseudonym for Julian Gough I'd like to assert that I really am not he! I do believe that Gough is a damn good writer, up there with (Nicola Barker) for instance. I could go on for several pages but, as this my first visit, I'll politely spare you that.

Hello-
I love to read the lively discussion on this thread, figured I may as well officially join! I am agnostic, but I more and more think this isn't really the right label for me. Reading the threads in here help me so much-I moved to the south a year and a half ago, and I am FIRMLY in the closet about my beliefs since I moved here-many people at my (State) college don't look kindly on non-christian views, so I keep my mouth shut. Reading the well reasoned opinions of LT-ers about religion has made me feel much less freakish!

I haven't had time to read the many interesting threads here, but anyway - hi!

I'm not sure what I am, but I think I know what I'm not.

I think I am probably a moralist, but I believe its more important to work out your own moral code than to accept one given to you by religion.

I think there is a 'something' or 'causality' behind the universe, but I don't believe in the God of organised religion. I do appreciate the idea that god is in everything.

I think all sentient beings have the right to be treated as such by others. I think all intelligent sentients have the duty to consider and care for those less able or intelligent. I believe that every 'right' comes with an equivalent 'duty'.

Well, that's enough for now! But I look forward to discussions later...

Count me in. Not much to say other than it's nice to know that while we sometimes seem to live in an asylum run by the inmates, it's nice to know a few guards are still running loose too :)

I'd call myself a secular humanist if anything, although I don't like labels as others have said here. I'm one of those types who finds people's religious beliefs outright laugh-out-loud funny until it sinks in that there are people out there who believe some strange things and are living their lives based on those absurdities.

Hello
I love reading the threads of this group and finally joined. It's wonderful to see discussions where faith is not looked upon as holy or infallible, but not attacked as evil (well, at least everyone makes an attempt).
I grew up without religion and have never joined a religious group. I have somehow obtained a cursory knowledge of major religions. I call myself agnostic, by which I mean I do not understand the world fully and refuse to rule out what is not proven, but I will not base my life on something that has no proof. I see spirituality as a necessary and beautiful component of humanity.

"... faith is ... not attacked as evil"

Well, some of us do attack faith as evil, but we differ from the faithful, in that we don't attempt to have those who disagree with us tortured and killed.

As Jesus said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Although it was Jesus' declared policy not to state his meaning clearly, it is generally agreed that what he meant here was, "If something has bad results, it must itself be bad". By this measure, faith is evil.

Jefferson said (echoing Paine?), "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." (Does anybody have a good on-line source for this?) As long as our neighbours are happy not to pick our pockets or break our legs in the name of their faith, OK. In the current state of the world, that is unfortunately all too often not the case. Our governments pick our pockets, in the form of taxation, and pass on part of the proceeds to support faiths, to which we cannot subscribe.

I haven't been spending the time I used to on LT and HH, but I'd like to say hello to our many new members. Welcome one and all!

Ok, I've been lurking long enough and decided to plunge in and join. Here I am. I seem to spend most of my time at the Green Dragon or here, so it just makes sense to join.

I'm not going to give myself a label 'cause I wouldn't know where to even start. I grew up in the United Church of Canada, which is an amalgamation of Methodist, Presbyterian and Congregationalist, which joined together in 1928. So I like to think (a little idealistically) that the United Church works hard at acceptance. I was a lay minister/staff associate with the church for a few years and loved the work, especially helping people through grief and loss. But life, church politics, and health issues all got in the way and I've stepped back from organized religion.

Even when I was considering, working towards ordination, I always believed in a universal spirit, not necessarily the white bearded old man in the clouds with son Jesus. So I would cringe when saying the Creed and have long discussions with various theologians. I love the academics of theology - guess that's what attracts me here, I love the discussions! You guys are great! Not sure what I can contribute, but I'll certainly be reading :-)

Heya, katylit my friend! I noticed you joined when I was looking at the HH group page. I remembered you mentioning you were a lay minister at one point, so I was a bit surprised to see you here. But, now that I've read this, I am no longer surprised.

So, WELCOME to HH!

Thanks clam. Yup, even when I was a lay minister I was a rebel ;-)

I bet we could share war stories!

Katylit, it's great to have you here!!!
Most welcome!

Thanks Busifer and Arctic.

Arctic, I was such a novice, so naive, but yeah, bet there's war stories we could share :-)

sigh...the church...the only hospital that shots its own wounded.

yay, welcome katylit. I love hearing from people who have actually 'been there.'

# 119

damn.

accurate, but damn.

talk about triage.... : >

One of my theology professors said, "The Church is your mother.....
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
She is a whore, but she's your Mother."

LOLOL!!!! O wow, that's just so priceless. So apt, I'm sitting here, speechless. Arctic, that was one very astute theology professor!

Nothing really of interest to say at the moment but thrilled to find this group. Hi everyone! When do we take over the world?

When everyone else is raptured!!

Was that raptured or ruptured? Or will either do?

Maybe I should introduce myself too, I just jumped in and started posting a few weeks ago.

I'm weener. Despite the misleading screen name, I'm female. I live in Phoenix, AZ. I consider myself agnostic, leaning towards atheism. I grew up in a small town in AZ full of white fundamentalist Christians. I wasn't raised religious and wasn't confronted with the fact that there were those who took religion very seriously until I was 12 or 13. What a bizarre realization!

I'm glad to be here in the Happy Heathens, because I don't get to talk with like-minded nonreligious folks nearly enough.

ref #127
I grew up in a way more secularist general environment ; but with certain complications I wont to go into now for fear of making this even more long winded than its gonna be.

Somewhere around age 12 it occurred to me that whatever it was that made something good or bad it couldnt be the result of a central "good decreeing" authority. After all the authority either had a good reason to declare something good or it didnt. If it didnt, who needs the authority? If it did, we could know whats good directly using the same rules, so again, who needs the authority?

It was only much later that I discovered Plato beat me into print by what? 2500 years? Damn plagiarist!

Yet later, I discovered that so much of the world takes that religion stuff seriously. Omigosh! I thought I was living in a civilized world, and it turned out that politically and morally its a pit. They are all crazy and a heap of them are trying to kill me and all my relatives. Great!

Oh well, I suppose it builds character to have enemies. Lucky me. Joy. (modified rapture).

Certainly it concentrates the mind, as that fellow quipped.

ref #128
I dont have actual stats, but I'll bet a transition from
"atheist" to "agnostic" is less frequent than the other way. Just a guess, I could be full of beans on that one.

If its not too pugnacious to ask....How come the backsliding? ;-)

#129: How did you finally find out? My discovery was in English class in 7th grade when I made some snide, dismissive comment about religion, only to have everyone swing their head back to gape at me and say, "You...DON'T believe in God? Are you kidding?"

#132
Funny thing. Now that I think about it, I cant identify a single "road to Damascus" moment when I suddenly sat bolt upright and realized "I'm stuck on a planet with all crazy people on it".

It must have been hundreds of small moments, each one unnoticeable or unobtrusive until something in me figured out that either people believe in wacko propositions with no objective evidence whatever, or they pretend to with such regularity as makes no difference.

I was raised in a Unitarian church. No defining moment, unless you count when I was 5 or so, thinking, "I don't believe in God. Better not tell my parents; it might bother them." Turns out, it would have bothered them far more if I had been a believer. My final diagnosis: I'm an agnostic in my head, but an atheist in my heart.

ref #129 modalursine...do I spy another G&S fan?

I...AM... YOUR... GOD.

I HAVE BEEN LURKING ON THIS FORUM SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME... WELL, THE BEGINNING OF THIS GROUP, ANYWAY. BEFORE THEN I WAS AT THE GREEN DRAGON.

AND NOW I TELL YOU THAT I AM NOT AMUSED. NOT AMUSED IN THE SLIGHTEST. FORSAKE YOUR BLASPHEMOUS WAYS, UNBELIEVERS. FALL DOWN ON YOUR KNEES AND WORSHIP ME, OH INSIGNIFICANT CREATIONS. OR I SHALL STRIKE THEE. YEAH VERILY, I SHALL STRIKE THEE WITH GREAT VENGEANCE AND FURIOUS ANGER.

NO, I'M NOT DOING SAMUEL L. JACKSON. SAMUEL L. JACKSON WAS DOING ME!

I refuse to worship a GOD who doesn't know that "thee" is singular and that in English a pronoun agrees in number with its antecedent.

Re #135: See? Even this sign from the heavens is just not sufficient proof for me. I'm just stubborn that way.

(Good morning, MrAndrew.)

good morning M... well, very very early morning. I would have said hello earlier but a nonexistent deity possessed my keyboard. Hi folks!

>#136: perhaps he/she switched subject in mid-paragraph, and "thee" was addressed specifically to you, jim. I hear that pedants go to the special hell.

So, were GOD to know the correct usage of "thee", you would worship him/her? I'm impressed with your personal criteria for belief. It's very specific ;)

ref #135
There's an old rabbinic tale about two famous rabbi's
(so famous you're supposed to know their names, but since I dont, I wont bother to look them up) trying to achieve unanimity on a point of scripture.
They are not agreeing.

Finally one of them asks for a sign.

Lo...a tree gets up and moves. The other one says "It is not by trees that such things are decided".

The story goes on, I dont remember all the signs and portents, but the punch line is when the voice of god himself speaks out and says "rabbi X is right", that rabbi Y says, "Well, thats only two to one so the question is still open".

#138: MrAndrew 'were GOD to know the correct usage of "thee", you would worship him/her?'

I'd find another reason not to - like not worshiping a GOD who SHOUTS. Or smites. Or interferes too much - or not at all.

But smiting is the coolest part! I've never seen anyone smited, but I bet it's pretty awesome. "What happened to Jeff?" "Oh, he was smited last Tuesday. Better than fireworks."

I can think of some people I'd smite, if I could.

>#141: "smited"... is that right? smitten? smote?

I'd like to see someone turned into a pillar of salt. Or any condiment, really.

I checked the Merriam-Webster online. He was smitten (or smote, I guess) is correct, but I like "smited" better. "He was smote last Tuesday"? No, that doesn't work. "He took the last parking spot, so I smote him." Okay. But "smitten" gives you the wrong meaning.

"But God smote the evil ones, and they were smitten."

Aww. How sweet. They were smitten? Smitten with whom?

Oh woudst I could kick the habit
And give up smoting for good!

----Apologies to Alan Sherman

There are many familiar names here, but many that aren't, so I'll introduce myself. As I mentioned in another post here I am an agnostic leaning towards atheism. I was raised Southern Baptist in a small West Texas town, where the church is second only to football. It’s Texas people, EVERYTHING is second to football. My disenchantment with my parents and peers views came quickly after I discovered that questions and inquiring minds were frowned on. The older I got, the more my views and sense of right and wrong pushed me away. After several years I was having one of my long deep inner mental weedings and realized that deep down I didn’t except the notion of a God, certainly not the being I had been brought up to believe in. I know there is a lot out there that is unknown, but what I do know is that I can’t abide the hate and bigotry that spews out under the guise of faith. And I do admit a very strong negative visceral reaction to Christianity. The devil I know, I guess. I have been reading the posts here and while I have found a lot of likemindedness (is that a real word?), I've also seen others that think differently who respect the differences and are willing to talk about those differences. Not lecture down any dissent.
Oh, I like smited better too.

Whew, thank goodness. I was reading your post, and wondering how, oh how you could have trod down such a path of despair, then I realized you were talking about doubting God and not football.

Otherwise I might have had to make you smitten.

Actually the reason I had to leave Texas was to avoid being smitten for my disbelief in football. That and I can't two-step worth a damn.

Kim, I'd suggest NOT coming to SC then - we're smack in the center of Bible and football territory here too.

Escape while you can!!

(ps - welcome to HH, sometimes neither H. nor H. but we do try...)

And Arctic, I'd accept that smiting with a clear conscience. I can be a martyr for anti-football people everywhere!

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." *in Obi-Wan voice, obviously.*

: >

so...I didn't see this thread when I joined a few months ago. I introduced my mother to LT and she found this group. She isn't atheist, but is wonderfully supportive of me. And easily amused.

When I was five, I lost a tooth. Concerned about the existance of the toothfairy, I withheld this information from my father. He noticed right away. I am a terrible liar. I explained to him that I had intended to put the tooth under my pillow. If the toothfairy didn't come, there was no toothfairy, santa clause, easter bunny, or leprechauns. He was sure I would grow up to be a great scientist, but here I am with a psych degree...sigh.

Looking back, I am almost certain that religion didn't stand a chance. I am very big on "not in your genes" sort of philosophy. Epigenetics is my personal soapbox. I love sci-fi and fantasy as long as it is well written. I just bought a Christopher Hitchens book, because he entertains me. Also, I am ready for primaries to be over.

As for smitted, I think we should adopt a French style linguistic policy - If it sounds better, it must be correct. I think Strunk and White would approve.

#149 Rowan, I admit to doing my damnedest to stay away from the south in general. I can't seem to convince the rest of my family to move away from Texas, so some trips are necessary. I always feel like I'm entering hostile territory the moment I cross the border. I've even considering wearing a disguise to avoid attracting attention, but you wouldn't believe how ridiculous I look in a Dallas Cowboy jersey!

Now that I've actually contributed to a conversation here on HH I thought it only appropriate that I introduce myself as well.

Having read through the rest of this thread I start to get the feeling I'm the only person here who was actually brought up as an atheist. My entire immediate family are agnostic/atheist (quite aggressively so in the case of my brother) and my only experience of church etc came through my friends.

Living in a secular country (Australia), I've never really been made to feel that my views were evil, different or wrong (apart from the 2 years that I spent at a Presbyterian school). In fact, something like 20% of Australians are agnostic/atheist now (according to the census of 2006) so we're a growing band of people.

I like to think that despite my personal views I am accepting of other people's faiths - but then I went to a religious school for 2 years and have lived with 2 minister's daughters, as well as having another 3 minster's daughters as friends, so I'd have to be.

I've been a bit behind as of late, so let (finally) say welcome to all of you!

Hi fellow Heathens,

I'm TK Kenyon, and I'm new here. I joined this group because it's not easy to find other folks who are willing to be brave enough to forego a comforting Deity, or even a spiteful and wrathful Deity as long as S/He is spiteful and wrathful toward the people you think S/He ought to be.

I loved the dog parable on this thread. I emailed it to my mom.

I think I was well on the road to disbelief when I realized that struggles make you happy, and that the whole idea of Heaven, with its lack of cares, sounded really boring.

Then I got a BS in microbiology, and even 4 years of solid science was enough to train my mind to see through magical thinking and superstition, and the universe seems much more comforting without the addition of a capricious Deity (-ies.)

Then I got PhD. And it was truly over.

What would it take to make me believe?

Probably a personal visitation from a Deity, followed by a negative CAT scan for epilepsy, and the revisitation of that Deity despite the camel-sized doses of anti-psychotics that I would be taking for the hallucinations, followed by a significant change in my neurochemistry that can only be described as brain damage that would allow me to mistake the impossible for the merely implausible.

All that said, I enjoy reading about religion and reading religious texts (and just reading anything, really.) It's a back door into the human experience that I find just fascinating.

Anyhoo, hello!

And by the way, anyone here, feel free and feel encouraged to friend me. I love to friend people on LT. It's an intellectual acquantance, true, but we all need some casual friendliness in our lives. I've heard internet friends described as "my dear, close, intimate, best strangers."

TK Kenyon

Hi, all. I've been on LT message boards for a bit and thought I'd try my hand at a non-book/library related board for a change. I live in a suburb of Dallas, TX-so smack in the middle of Born-Again land. My mom took me to church every weekend until I was old enough to decide for myself whether or not to go. She is a self-described Heathen (and has listed it as her religion on more than one occassion), though I'm Pagan. The psychological roots of myth, faith, religion, etc are all very interesting to me (yup, I read a little too much Jung), but living where I do, I tend to get confronted too much with the mundane aspects of it and occassionally need a place to vent. The day before Easter, I was visited by 5 proseltysers inviting me to worship. When I was in labor with my son, my mother-in-law tried to "lay hands" on me to "help." I made sure to join the PTA to make sure I always had a voice in the school system in case the same teacher who taught my biology class creationism is still around. Having a refuge from that sounded like a good idea.

Hi!

This is a great group.

kaelirenee, I can relate (well, almost -- the laying of hands during childbirth sounds like it's straight out of a David Lynch movie) because I live in the crown jewel of California's Bible Belt, Bakersfield. Fortunately, it's pretty easy to escape (a short drive and we can get our bearings at the coast).

Let's see...my mom had me "accept" Jesus when I was five or so after watching one of her TBN programs. I think I've been what the "elect" call a backslider ever since (to avenge myself upon the aforementioned cable station, I once called their "prayer hot line" and asked if they could pray for me to get one of those gold chairs they're always sitting in).

I would call myself an agnostic if pressed, but am very sympathetic to Buddhism. I enjoy Jung a lot, as well as Joseph Campbell and Spinoza. But I'm just scratching the surface. This group looks like a great way to vent (the zombie Jesus thread still has me chuckling).

Thanks, all.

Welcome, one and all, to our dysfunctional, religiously irreverent little group! ;-) Seriously though, it sounds like you three are in the right place! Welcome.

I've been lurking and occasionally posting to this group for a month or so now, but now that this thread has popped back up, I guess I'll chime in.

I grew up semi-religious, with various spurts of going to church. It was just kind of a given that there was a god, and I didn't really know that there were other options. But I always had a lot of unanswerable questions. The one I remember when I was very young was how the heck god could possibly hear and answer everyone's prayers at once. Not the most profound question, but it was the first time I questioned and it was all downhill from there.

In high school I was definitely starting to question things, but I had a brief resurgence of Christianity when I had a summer romance with a boy in a Christian Rock band, who lured me to his youth group and got me to start attending regularly, which I did because I thought he would be there every week, but he subsequently graduated up to the next level of group, and left me in the lower group with his ex-girlfriend as my squire, and slowly stopped calling me after awhile, though it took me the entire summer to realize that he wasn't ever calling again and had basically started dating me to get me into the youth group. I found out later he had been sleeping with a different ex-girlfriend that entire summer and got her pregnant.

That soured me enough on the religion that I was able to start seriously thinking about the questions that had always plagued me. Eventually, I came to realize that I didn't believe in the Christian god, and eventually in no god at all. I was agnostic for a long time, and then in the last few years realized that I am truly an atheist. I always say that the boy who tried to recruit me in such a sleazy manner ended up having the complete opposite effect, and it makes me smile a little inside. I think I would have eventually realized my atheism without that boy, but he gave me the push I needed to finally start down that path a little sooner than I might have otherwise.

Wikky, boys can be powerful motivators. The only reason I was able to eventually admit that I was no longer a Muslim was because a stubborn friend of mine kept pushing me to admit it... and I wanted him to be more than a friend. I got over him, but never my loss of faith.

Hello, heathens! I just started on this librarything thing, in fact just coughed up my $25 PayPal bucks today. So I'm now slogging down the shelves a bit at a time. Like a lot of heathens & infidels I had a very extensive religious education, which accounts no doubt for my unbelief. One WHOPPER too many! But I must say, by fourth grade I had concluded that the "story" was some sort of falsehood. I asked my dad and he said, Well yes but it is considered impolite to say so. Anyway, I have continued an interest in religion generally, and folklore, and do quite a lot of reading in New Testament topics, as well as Roman history, Greek and Latin classics etc. I put up some of my thoughts on a little blog http://skipchurch.blogspot.com but don't accept comments since I found responding to them to be tedious. It's really for my three kids and a small group of friends, but feel free to check it out.

Though I'm an complete unbeliever, I am not an evangelical atheist, My radically atheistic children all attended Quaker schools. One still does. I have frequent contact with Amish and Mennonite folks, who I love and value. I was a moderator in an Islamic chat room on MSN. I collect accounts of jinns, actually.Well I'm boring myself and must be boring you as well, so bye for now.

Well I'm back, again. That's the problem with us agnostics we just can't make up our mind.

ref #160
Wow. Wonder if we have any djinn visiting the forum.

Can you make any money collecting accounts from djinn?

Oh. Tricksy language, English.
So tell us about the djinn already.

Thought I'd throw in my voice since I just joined up.

Raised Roman Catholic, I just never got into it and ultimately decided that I'm an atheist. Well, I guess it really didn't take that long, quit church totally about a decade ago at age 13. Studied Medieval lit (European, mostly) & ancient Greek history in college, and honestly the more of that stuff I read the harder it was to believe in much of anything. That's right, I blame education for my current state! No, sorry not really, just not religious.

So that's that, hi everyone.

#160

You know that there are radically atheistic Quakers.

"You know that there are radically atheistic Quakers":

Yes, I know that.

Well...jinns. Jinns are beings, like humans, created by Allah, but in Muslim belief are created of the flame of smokeless fire. The Rock 15.27 "And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire". They may be believers or infidels just like humans. The economy of the jinns is obscure, but they tend to live in dirty places, like wastelands or (even) your bathroom.

Here are two very short bits. The long ones, especially the interviews with exorcists, are too long to paste in. But these I think are charming.

Jinns Rare In US and UK

SkipChurch : I find Saudi is awash with accounts of jinn possession!
SkipChurch : But accounts from the UK and US are more rare...that is, I have none so far.
ButterflyColours : skip, jinns
ButterflyColours : like hot countries
ButterflyColours : and fear water
ButterflyColours : and trees
ButterflyColours : that's why they are more rare in uk and us
Talnet37 : Surah 5:34
*****
Jinn Under A Cup (Turkey)

sistermeek : yes Skip, this is true
sistermeek : my Iranian friend
sistermeek : she told me an account, while in turkey
sistermeek : about a man with a stall on the side of the road
sistermeek : he had three cups on the platform
sistermeek : and under one of them was the jinn
sistermeek : and he would show them which one, and they had to guess after he shuffled the cups
sistermeek : they would pay him $$
sistermeek : my friend touched the cup
sistermeek : it was incredibly hot

Anyway, that's a little about jinns. Really, you can ask any Muslim about jinns and you'll get some interesting and informative replies.

I only know one person who says he was brought up as a Quaker, and by gum, he's an atheist, but not
a radical one. Very quiet, soft spoken, sort of atheist. I wonder if that's the Quaker influence.

But are you saying that people born into Quaker families are more likely to be atheists than the population at large? If so why so? ITs not Apri 01 anymore is it?

ref 167
Like hot and dry, dont like trees and wet, omigosh
must be a regular plague of 'em in the Southwest.

Hmmmm, do you suppose the Navajo are ready for the next Islamic revival? They've already got the sheep.

I don't think being a Quaker leads to atheism, but unlike other Christian expressions of faith, it does not reject that option either. If one has grave doubts about God, or is even beyond doubt, but still believes in seeking an Inner Light, Quakers are a great option.

LOL...well about jinns in the Southwest: traditional Muslims will explain that the jinns won't cross the Atlantic (they fear water)...so that would explain the apparent scarcity of New Mexican jinns. Go figure! They can't take Virgin Atlantic and hide their eyes? There was a similar idea regarding fairies: they are bound to a place, more or less-- the place being the Celtic fringe.

The Navaho of course have their own supernatural beings running around and are not in need of imports.

Oh, that's why Quaker shows up so high on my list on the Belief-o-matic! I always wondered about that. Thanks, Arctic.

#167

I grew up Muslim, and we traded jinn stories the way non-immigrant American kids scare each other with ghost stories. Jinns taking the form of snakes, little boys in religious classes, and dogs were common.

ref #171
But they could have come over the Land Bridge from Siberia to Alaska about 12K years before present, along with at least one wave of archeo Indians.

The Navajo seem pretty eclectic. They took over stuff from the Pueblos, and come to think of it they got Christianity , among other things, from the Biligaana ( probably not the politest word for the white man). The southwest has plenty room for spirit beings, come one, come all.

But they could have come over the Land Bridge from Siberia to Alaska about 12K years before present, along with at least one wave of archeo Indians.
Well, the jinns tried coming across the ice bridge to North America, but they kept getting lost. They found it very hard to keep their Bering Strait….

(Oh, modal, you played into that pun so nicely. PS--it's not my own Here are 9 more fantastic puns.)

ref #172
They had some rum luck, those djinn; if its not to wry a comment.

I'm always late for these things, but here goes:

Raised Russian Orthodox, and generally don't hold anything against my religious upbringing, other than an annoyance with the long, long hours wasted spent standing in an airless, incense murky cathedral. I don't remember ever believing, though I remember wanting to believe. I even thought about being a priest in my early teens, though I couldn't quite get over the hump of not believing the main bits of the job. I guess I admired the education of the priests. Seems like a kickass Humanities education with a bunch of cool demon-crap thrown in to keep it weird. This is before I had heard of U.C. Santa Cruz.

I read Voltaire as a teen, soon after my priestly period, and it did the deed. I became a materialist, an individualist, and stopped going to church. 25 years out, I can't really say my ideals have changed. I was married in the church, even had my kids christened, entirely as a sop to tradition and the grumpy old people I am related to.

For me, the god-theory falls apart at the level of the soul. Religion seems generally to be a doctrine of a transcendent extra-temporal reality that humans access through logos, a notoriously crappy data-compression technology. We can't manage to understand this world much beyond what it occurs to us to pay attention to and quantify. We are naturally prejudiced to the sort of information our species can process easily -- a science created by bats would very odd to us.

So, somehow we are supposed to sense and invest in the belief of a significantly alien reality when we can't be sure the fridge light goes out, or how our own minds work, and we are expected to come to that belief through the works of animals of our species -- creatures operating under the same limitations as you and me.

I'm open to the idea of a variety of potential intelligences that would be quite alien to our own, and I suspect if that's the case, some of those intelligences would be appear sufficiently godlike to make us say wtf.

I also think that of the various ideas of gods that you see in our various religions, none are weird or sublime enough to ring as anything other than literary creations. And when an unremarkable shlub like myself can conceive of that a being could be more alien and sublime than Vishnu, YHWH, or L. Ron Hubbard, that tells me that the idea of god is a cultural one, reflecting the idea of of the sublime from the era the idea of that god was conceived.

I'm a long-winded ass.

Hi there gregtmills. And to my knowledge, you are our first member to come from a Russian Orthodox upbringing. Welcome to our group!

I feel honored for representing my former faith.

I just joined LT a week or so ago, and already I'm a full-fledged addict. Put that down to my living in an area with a dearth of intellectual conversation.

My father was a Reform rabbi who, as he grew older, became more conservative both religiously and politically. He was never a Deist when young, and was in large part responsible for my own personal loss of faith (a long and sad story -- the man had many personal problems which he took out on his kids).

But my own crisis of faith occurred in the 7th grade, when I first began reading extensively about the Holocaust. And then came the Biafran famine, and other world catastrophes, and a stint doing volunteer work at a local children's hospital. You want to know about heart-breaking? Spend some time on a children's oncology ward.

As I developed intellectually I began to read everything I could get my hands on about religious world views of all types. Then I moved on to works on anthropology, paleontology, and some cosmology. And you know what happened. . .I thought about what I'd read, and therefore I became an atheist. Not a militant one, however, though when my acquaintances begin to spout off about how the signs and portents in their lives herald the coming of the Apocalypse, I start slowly edging towards the nearest door. Slowly, because I don't want to startle them -- who knows how they'd react?

And don't you guys just love those bumper stickers that read IN CASE OF RAPTURE, THIS CAR WILL BE EMPTY? Now that's self-conceit (or as my people say, chutzpah)!

I live in the sticks of southwest Florida, where almost everyone is a good Christian -- no bad jokes about that one, friends. I know a lot of very nice Christians, though we have to confine our conversation to mundanities.

So I was delighted to hook up with this little (or not so little) group -- I am starved for conversation! It's not talking to myself I mind so much, but I'm getting worried when I answer!

Welcome, Rachel! It's been a little quiet in here lately, but there are times when I can't keep up with the posts...

Again, welcome!!!

First, I must state that there is an important respect in which I strictly fail to qualify for membership in this group; namely, I make no claim to be happy. I anticipate that some Christian will see this disclaimer and boldly conclude from it that my lack of happiness is the result of my rejection of Christ. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. As a result of the hard-won experience of most of my life and from years of earnest study--which culminated in reading the Bible all the way through, as very few professing "Christians" have done--I can explain clearly and incontrovertibly why I was incalculably more miserable when I believed that Christianity was true than I am now.

As for the second element in the group's label, I am certainly a "heathen" according to the definition given in this site's introduction (although I doubt by any other definition). I reject Christianity, but have done so only after believing that it was true and, as a direct result, suffering terribly from it from childhood into adulthood. I find other religions no more credible, a priori, than Christianity.

My main reason for joining, despite my failure to satisfy the "happiness" qualification, is that there are topics being discussed here that are of great importance and of great interest to me personally, and about which I might have something useful to contribute. I look forward to exchanging thoughts, experiences, and knowledge with you.

Welcome, criels! I hope you find plenty of satisfying conversations and discussions here in HH. We can be both serious and totally irreverent at times.

Thank you for your kind welcome, claimairy. I hope that you will continue to find my participation here profitable enough to remain desirable, despite my habit of replying somewhat caustically to the religious apologetics that I find in some of the threads. Religion occupies a unique position in my thoughts and experience, and I regard myself as extraordinarily qualified to call a spade a spade within this field. I can't avoid being offensive in the course of doing so. I think that religion gets an absurd degree of entirely unwarranted deference, and I think the balance needs to be tilted in the other direction.

Hear hear. I think one of the ways to tilt the balance is by irreverent humour (aka taking the piss) directed at the beliefs held by others, and even at those who hold those beliefs, although I might be sailing close to the wind here in terms of LT's terms of use. Hence the title happy heathens, I guess.

When I was young, I tried to educate myself about theology so that I could argue with the morons on their terms, but then decided long ago that there were other things more worth studying in this short life, and that it was ultimately a waste to devote so much energy to the pack of lies that most religions are.

This is a great group.

god bless us all.

I thought it was "God bless us every one."

Hi everyone,

Although I've made a few posts, I'm new here too and wanted to introduce myself. I've found some of the most worthwhile discussions on LT in this thread, and that says a LOT, since I love LT and participate in other great groups.

I am not an atheist or an agnostic, nor am I affiliated with any specific religion. I consider myself a spiritual person who does not and can not believe in a God that would lay only one path of access to him/her/it and doom the rest of humanity.

Like criels, I spent many years in study of the Bible, first during 8 years of Catholic school, then studying world religions in college, and finally, through exploring a variety of spiritual traditions in search of a spiritual home (which I have not yet found and which I suspect is actually myself).

I have never regretted my "religious" education, as I think it is critical for people living in this society to be familiar with and understand the Bible, especially since the boundaries between church and state are so (unconstitutionally) blurred these days. I was fortunate enough to have parents who encouraged critical thought with respect to faith and religion and allowed me to make my own choices and establish my own belief system along the way.

So, that's a grossly oversimplified peek at my beliefs and background, and I look forward to many more lively discussions with you all.

Since this seems to be the introduction thread...:

I'm neither a theist nor an atheist. I don't belong to a religious group. I'm not a follower.

I'm very interested in Osho and his words, and will not be offended by jokes or negative responses about Osho.

I found Happy Heathens by searching which groups are discussing Charles Manson.

I don't think I ever introduced myself even though I joined awhile back and have posted on occasion. I guess I should fix that.

The first thing about this group that attracted me was the Heathen part of the name. For a few years I was a follower of the Germanic gods, it is usually called Asatru and one of the names we called ourselves was Heathen. I was surprised to find such a large group of Heathens here and figured I'd check it out and see if I knew anyone. Obviously you were using a different definition of Heathen.

I eventually saw the light as it were and moved on and returned to the atheism of my misspent youth.

My wife claims that I hate religion, especially christianity, however I disagree with her. I believe everyone is entitled to believe what they want as long as they leave me out of it.

sgtbigg, I had the exact same misconception (about the name) before I joined! :D I'm not Heathen/Asatraur myself but a close friend is. In any case, welcome.

Hello, out there:)
I've just joined this group because I've been reading the threads and find them very interesting, so I should introduce myself. I consider myself an atheist, but I'm not anti-religion. I'm an admirer of something Karen Armstrong has said, that scripture should always be interpreted compassionately and never used as a means of hurting people, and that the golden rule is the main point, and all of scripture should be seen as a commentary on it. I was raised in a Unitarian Church, but taught about other religions. When I was in middle school, I actually tried to believe in God and what I read in The Bible, but found I couldn't, probably because I was only motivated by a sense of being left out of something; most of the kids around me were spending lots of time in the evening taking confirmation classes, and so on.

Anyway, I look forward to being a part of the group.

Welcome, actonbell! I hope you enjoy our insightful irreverence! ;-)

For those, who would like an "eye-witness" account about the late Jesus, read The Messengers by Julia Ingram. Paul exposes all!

I used to be a Christian until I found out that "Christ" was a Mexican, named Jesus.

I got nothin against Mexicans, but do not feel welcome "top-side"; No habla espanol.

Hi.

I don't think I have posted anything in this group before, even though I read the threads a lot. So here's my introduction:

I'm an atheist who was raised by atheists. I've never really understood religion. I don't have a feeling of "spirituality" so I've never understood what people mean when they use that word. I guess I cannot be called a militant atheist because I do not attack people for their beliefs.

However, I do think that people who believe in things which there is no empirical evidence for are, in at least one regard, absolutely Looney. Not quite crazy enough to need immediate intervention, but definitely riding the crazy train.

Welcome, LiberryTeacher. Love the nick! :o)

Hello, Fellow Heathens
I just found out about Librarything a couple of days ago and I just found out about this group today. I think it's super! I went to Catholic school for 13 years and the brainwashing just didn't take!! I like to think for myself, live by my own rules, and read lots of books.

Welcome, Crissy!
:o)
My brain didn't wash well, either, by the way!
;o)

Mine either! Though I only had 12 years.

Crissy--you shall fit in well here.

I just washed my brain, and can't do a thing with it! :D

"I like to think for myself, live by my own rules, and read lots of books." -- Sounds like a great motto for the Happy Heathens group! If we had a motto, I mean. Welcome, Crissy30.

Wow, thanks for the welcome, people!! I live in Southwest Louisiana and you're in the minority if you have no religious beliefs. I'm surrounded by devout Christians every day and I usually have to hold my tongue when they start talking their god-talk. I respect their decision to believe in a god but they never seem to respect my decision to be a nonbeliever. Oh, well. Life goes on.
I saw this Daniel Defoe quote somewhere on the internet and I wrote it down: "Of all the plagues with which mankind is cursed, ecclesiastic tyranny's the worst." Does anyone know where it comes from?

If my search is correct it is from The True-Born Gentleman, pt. 2 from 1701.

Thanks varielle. I read a couple of lines from this poem & it seems pretty interesting. I don't think I've read much Defoe. A Journal of the plague year and
The Great Storm seem readable. I haven't read anything that old for a really long time, though.

Thought I'd say hello too, and introduce myself. I'm Jennifer. I don't consider myself religious but would not be against the idea of being involved in something that felt right to me, that actually meant something and wasn't just going through the motions. I really can't stand proselytizing but I'll keep an open mind and at least listen for a minute. Anyway, nice to be here.

Hello everyone. I joined this group a few days ago, but am still not really sure why. I like using Librarything to keep track of the books I've read, but I'm not sure how often I'll be visiting the discussion side. Before I do my introduction, I want to ask a quick question about the group: Are the discussions limited to books about Atheism/Agnosticism?

I'm a 34 year old recovering Catholic. Haven't bought into religion since I was a young kid. I attended a catholic HS and university and that pretty much taught me everything I needed to know about religion, and that it wasn't for me. Kept my thoughts to myself until a few years ago when I met a guy at work that was reading some books he kept telling me about. I read "The End of Faith" and got the confirmation I desperately needed. I'm very confident in my beliefs and really enjoy religious debates, but I have gotten board with the literature out there.

I've been to some Humanist meetings, but it gets rather boring. People like talking about their 8 year old atheist child and the difficulty they are having with other children (what 8 year old knows they are an atheist?) and that's when I start to realize atheists are just as bad about forcing belief systems on children as the religious nuts.

Anywho, I'm rambling and hope that the group is open to talking about everything...not just the wonderful world of unbelief.

-Gary (Westerville, OH)

#205 "Are the discussions limited to books about Atheism/Agnosticism?"

By no means. But first, welcome to the group.

"... the group is open to talking about everything...not just the wonderful world of unbelief."

Indeed it is. Look around a bit. This is one of the most active groups on LT. There are plenty of topics, but it is true that there is a bias towards questions about belief, unbelief and levels of belief, and most topics are somehow, if obliquely, related to religion.

Welcome, Jennifer and Gary. Gary, I think that if you take a look at some of the threads in Happy Heathens, you will see they by no means are limited to atheist/agnostic book discussions. They cover the gamut from, well ... everything. :D News and current events, Web comics, silly stuff, books, politics, personal experiences, etc.

If interested, you could also have a look at the Pro and Con (Religion) group, and see if anything there appeals to you and/or if there are any good books.

Thanks for the responses and the warm welcome. I look forward to future exchanges and (hopefully) connections.

Mostly we are about bashing any and all sacred cows. ;o)

Welcome!

Well, that should annoy any Hindu members...

#210 - I don't think we've had any complain... yet. ;o)

Just joined up and am reading all the goodies. Love a good mix with board conversations. I am still deeply in my OCD phase of adding books to my library but finally realized there are actually other functions to explore. Have a great day!

Hello fellow Heathens! Glad to be a part of a group of healthy cynics with a sense of humor!

Is there life after high School? Or what the hell has been happening since? However, I was reassured, by this "graduation day vision" (back in June, 1950), that there would soon be a revelation, explaining it all, and, it did come (in 1953), in the vehicle of an LP recording of the First Drama Quartet's performance of George Bernard Shaw's "Don Juan in Hell" (a scene, "Straker's Dream", from Man and Superman)

Happy Heathens...i prefer Heretics...but will take what i can get. the posts i have read warm the cockles of my gnarly heart...my name is JUDE

A great big 'let's all burn together' welcome to Naren and Jude.
:oD

{delurks}

Hello, I've been lurking sporadically in this group. A few of you may know me from The Green Dragon, and I maybe should write up an introduction about how I'm a heathen, etc... OR NOT!

But I just HAD to delurk to bring you THIS:


More here

I know you'll understand how I couldn't help myself. ;P

{/delurks}

Bwaa haa haa! Welcome, Delirium9! Thanks for the great link.

I just about busted a rib laughing over this one:

I especially loved "Wookie & Eve"

#218 You're welcome! ;D

#219 I was in giggling fits while viewing the entire gallery, but Wookie & Eve was by far the funniest!

Quick intro:

My family attempted to raise me Presbyterian and my husbands tried to raise him Catholic, but we were always rebels who hated church and could care less about religion. We never gave religion much of a second thought until last year when we started actively learning more about atheism; realizing that's what we've always been, we are now actively embracing it. We are a military family with two young girls; I am a member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

Nice to meet you, smartblonde. A quick question for you, if I may. How's the atmosphere for atheists in the military these days?

222: clamairy

There was an article in the Air Force Times just this week about there being too much focus solely on christianity in the Air Force. Although many things are done in a non-religious way already as a rule, there is still a lot of work to be done to eliminate the military supporting religion. I'm trying to figure out why they still have the job of chaplain; I'd love to see it and the base chapels disappear from military culture. If you want to go to church then you have to go off base to find a church.

Some people in the military are out about it but they can still give people a hard time for it. Their is a current fight at the Air Force Academy in CO about unequal treatment to nonreligious individuals.

>222, 223

Yes, indeed! I live in Colorado Springs, home to the Air Force Academy, and they are always in trouble for pushing a pro-Christian agenda and doctrine. It's made worse by the fact that Focus on the Family and dozes of other huge Christian organizations are headquartered here as well. Not to mention megachurches like the infamous New Life Church. This is a very military town, as well as a very religious town. Interesting mix.

Anyway, welcome to the HH party, smartblonde!

(And thanks, clam, my good friend, for actually keeping an eye on this fine place. You rock!)

I suppose the question "Well, do you want atheists (or whoever else) on-side in defending our nation, ... or not?" wouldn't go down so well?

224:

Yeah you all have the whack job Ted Haggard; can't wait for the day I hear he's killed over.

225:

Oh we are so not "gods army."

Ted Haggard? I understand that he holds some kind of Papal position over some sort of Fundamentalist Vatican in Colorado Springs?

227:

Yeah, so he likes to think....pedophile. Looney toons is all he is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhcScBdnEhY

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhcScBdnE... belongs over in the Happy Heathens group. Please come over and join us, smartblonde

>227

Currently, Haggard is holding 'prayer meeting' at his home here in the Springs. It's how New Life Church got started. The local media covered the first meeting a lot...haven't heard anything since then.

Basically, he's just a media whore; can't stand to not be in the spotlight.

We go, from a pedophilic Vatican, to an epicenic orgy--Colorado Springs can become another Salt Lake City , where polygamy got its start in the "New Zion". Yea and verily, selah!

Now Teddy Haggard's wife is all over the goddamned place, locally at least, pimping her book.

Greedy, greedy, spotlight-whores, both of 'em.

#232: a succint label--for the entire fundamentalist clan (from Billy Graham onward) for their "spotlight striving" and their politics.