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Cover flagging live

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1timspalding
Edited: Jun 16, 2012, 4:30am Top

You can now flag and vote on covers as "not a cover" or "spam."

The link to do so is on the information pop-up thingy for each cover. Example:



You can see all cover flags here: http://www.librarything.com/helpers_covers.php

This isn't going to be instant. We need to decide on thresholds, decide if the flagging categories are right and so forth. Then the flags need have their effect.

Note, however, that flagging will not change any user's books. It won't change THEIR cover. It will only change how that cover perfuses to other users.

2Noisy
Jun 16, 2012, 5:29am Top

The book page for that horse one - http://www.librarything.com/work/8453701/book/61946085# - shows the image as a one pixel dot. Is that intended, or is that how the image is actually stored?

3BarkingMatt
Jun 16, 2012, 5:49am Top

Probably part of this bug: http://www.librarything.com/topic/138281

4legallypuzzled
Jun 16, 2012, 8:50am Top

>1 timspalding:

You need to change the title tag on that page to "Cover Flagging" rather than the current "Tag Translation."

5eromsted
Jun 16, 2012, 9:30am Top

It's fairly common to find images that are covers, but are not a correct cover for the work or book. Do they fall under "not a cover," need a separate category, or should they not be flagged?

6jjwilson61
Jun 16, 2012, 9:33am Top

And often in this case the problem is that the book is combined incorrectly. If given the option a lot of people will flag the cover without even realizing that what they should do is separate some edition out, so we should tread carefully here.

7brightcopy
Jun 16, 2012, 9:56am Top

On the other hand, if there was a specific option for "cover for a different book" that didn't suppress them, it might be useful. Especially if it showed up in some log or list and could be cleared via the combination/ separation interface.

8Collectorator
Jun 16, 2012, 10:29am Top

This is asinine on the heels of the bonehead breakage of recalculate cover.

Also, it's useless unless it removes WRONG covers

I'm glad I don't expect new features to actually DO anything anymore anyway.

9civitas
Edited: Jun 16, 2012, 11:16am Top

> 1
Flagged as not a cover by timspalding

Vote: Yes | No ....


Is the vote on whether this is a cover or on the proposition that it's not a cover?

Does a Yes mean:
Yes, I agree with the proposition that this is not a cover or
Yes, it's a cover, I disagree with the proposition?

Based on a Yes count of 1 when the cover is 1st flagged, I assume the vote is on the proposition and not on the nature of the cover image. As soon as there's a No vote though, that clue disappears.

You'll get better data if the wording is revised to remove the ambiguity e.g.:
"Vote: Yes - it's a cover | No - it's not ..." or
"Vote: Agree - it's not a cover | Disagree - it's a cover ..." or
"Agree: Yes | No ..."

11brightcopy
Jun 16, 2012, 11:28am Top

9> Good point, especially for users who aren't native speakers.

12eromsted
Edited: Jun 16, 2012, 12:44pm Top

>10 r.orrison:
The problem there is really the works not the covers. Hiding the images would only make it harder to tell what's going on.

13AnnaClaire
Edited: Jun 16, 2012, 4:03pm Top

Can the flagged covers we've voted on be moved onto an easily-findable "adjacent page" if/when we reload the page, the way that tag combination and spam work votes do?

14timspalding
Jun 16, 2012, 4:08pm Top

Say that again a different way?

15AnnaClaire
Jun 16, 2012, 4:14pm Top

Okay, say you vote on a tag combination and then reload the page. The combination proposal won't show up on the page listing the proposal you haven't yet voted on, but it will show up on the page listing the combination proposals you have voted on.

Basically, I'm looking for that, but on the flagged covers page.

16timspalding
Jun 16, 2012, 4:16pm Top

Okay, you want it to show up on the page, not just the pop-up?

17AnnaClaire
Edited: Jun 16, 2012, 4:30pm Top

Hang on, let me see if I can go throw together something to illustrate what I mean...

Edit: Except that I can't, since it won't let me upload pictures to my member gallery or junk drawer. (I think there was a bug report to that effect, but I didn't read it that thoroughly.) Unfortunately, I don't think I can get much clearer than post # 15 without visual aides, and I don't have enough time before I head out to knitting to find a work-around.

18prosfilaes
Jun 16, 2012, 5:28pm Top

I have a couple questions, looking for general consensus. There's no easy way to point to a cover, so look from them on http://www.librarything.com/helpers_covers.php .

The Book of Mormon with the cat is not a cover, definitely. But why are people labeling it spam? Even by the broadest definitions I can think of, it's not spam; it's not selling anything, it's not repetitive. It's merely expressing an opinion in an inappropriate way.

The Origin of Species has an image labeled as not a cover. It is a picture of the entire 50-volume Harvard Classics (or Great Books; either way); is the fact that it's not a straight-on photo of one book mean that it's not a cover?

19timspalding
Jun 16, 2012, 5:31pm Top

Good questions both. I don't know the answer to them.

The basic difference I had in mind was functional—whether to kill the cover's profusion throughout the system or whether to kill the cover outright and nobody could see it. Those correspond to flagging as not a cover and spam. The former might continue to be associated with the work in question, but never provided as a default either for the work or any ISBN. The latter should be removed and stamped upon.

That's my thinking. Yours?

20r.orrison
Jun 16, 2012, 5:41pm Top

Different question: how about a way to flag an image as low quality? I've seen uncropped high-res scans where the cover was a quarter of the image and the rest was the scanner lid.

21fdholt
Jun 16, 2012, 6:01pm Top

#19 I put a cover on the list - Fluff which is a children's book published in 1942 by Whitman. The cover is an adult poster/cover/whatever that shouldn't be on this book. Is this an appropriate use of this feature? If so, there are more incorrect covers that do not match the title. (And I'm not talking about Amazon isbn mismatches but member loaded listakes.)

22timspalding
Jun 16, 2012, 6:03pm Top

>21 fdholt:

Yeah, but if you look at the combinations, that's a real book. Should't it be a separation and combination issue?

23lilithcat
Jun 16, 2012, 6:08pm Top

> 22

Maybe we need a flag for "it's a cover but not for this edition".

24timspalding
Jun 16, 2012, 6:10pm Top

Meh. That's much much harder to do. Most users are edition-blind.

25fdholt
Jun 16, 2012, 6:10pm Top

#22 Been there and done that. Got that copy out. (http://www.librarything.com/work/12693638)
However the cover remains on the children's copy.

Now someone has separated out all the children's copies that do belong together. Sigh! (Got the info from member's libraries and the 3 should again be combined.)

26prosfilaes
Jun 16, 2012, 6:16pm Top

#26: No, the edition "Fluff" should not be combined with any edition that has enough identifying information. Editions don't belong to members; the system will combine all works title "Fluff", Author null, ISBN null, together.

27fdholt
Edited: Jun 16, 2012, 6:23pm Top

#26

Fluff

bill_reyn's copy is pub. by Whitman. Littlefu's copy is Whitman #1022. My copy is Whitman series #1022. All published 1949. Why would they not all be combined?

28brightcopy
Edited: Jun 16, 2012, 9:08pm Top

#23 by lilithcat> Maybe we need a flag for "it's a cover but not for this edition".

#24 by timspalding> Meh. That's much much harder to do. Most users are edition-blind.

How about my suggestion in #7?

ETA: Also, I don't think we're really concerned with "most users", are we? "Most users" don't combine and separate books, vote on tag proposals, etc.

Hmm, it occurs to me what you're worried about. You'll get a bunch of users clicking on the button to say that a certain cover isn't the cover for this book, but that's only because it's not the cover for THEIR edition of the book. My only proposed solution - bury the option so only power users (aka LT's janitors) know where it is. :D

29BarkingMatt
Jun 17, 2012, 3:09am Top

The problem with "Fluff" is that both the adult and the children's book are no-ISBN and no-author. Except for the people explicitly marking theirs "Whitman" (which is just the publisher, so many people won't) there's no way to keep them separated.

30fdholt
Jun 17, 2012, 9:12am Top

#26 and 29

I am still not getting this. All three children's Fluff are marked so in the member's catalogs - in notes, etc. The date of publication matches. Why can't these be combined?

31BarkingMatt
Jun 17, 2012, 9:16am Top

They can be combined. Just saying there no way of keeping the other Fluff from combining into it as well.

The work system doesn't keep track of comments in member catalogs.

32fdholt
Jun 17, 2012, 9:32am Top

#31 Before uncombining, I added a qualifier to my title and made it the canonical title to prevent this from happening. That was also removed. If no one else weighs in on this and since I have already done the research on the title, later this afternoon I will recombine the 3 children's titles and make sure the disambiguation notice is there. Just no way of removing the incorrect cover photo.

33lilithcat
Jun 17, 2012, 10:06am Top

> 32

I added a qualifier to my title and made it the canonical title to prevent this from happening.

Speaking for myself, I'd be really annoyed if one of my books showed up on the work page with a so-called canonical title to which someone had added extraneous material, no matter how well-intentioned. That field is not meant for explanatory material, so it's no wonder that the qualifier was removed.

34fdholt
Jun 17, 2012, 10:31am Top

#33 I see this done all the time - will not add it except to my own title in my catalog. Thanks, lilithcat.

35lilithcat
Edited: Jun 17, 2012, 10:49am Top

>34 fdholt:

I think it's one thing to add {DVD} (there's pretty much a consensus that that should be done to differentiate among editions), and another entirely if my copy of Pride and Prejudice is suddenly titled Pride and Prejudice{not the one with the zombies}.

36BarkingMatt
Jun 17, 2012, 11:32am Top

It sort of depends. I have two books by Thomas B. Hess on Barnett Newman, both simply called "Barnett Newman", both pre-ISBN. One is substantive, one is a booklet. So I added "booklet", between square brackets, to one. Only way I saw to disravel it from the other. Otherwise they simply autocombined - and not as something that could be separated, just another copy of the same. You can't blame a database for not understanding these things.

37jjwilson61
Jun 17, 2012, 12:11pm Top

So I added "booklet", between square brackets, to one.

Right, but to the title in your catalog, not as the canonical title on the work. I don't see how adding it to the canonical title helps anyway since it needs to distinguished at the edition level before it can be autocombined to the same work.

38BarkingMatt
Edited: Jun 17, 2012, 12:18pm Top

Sure. I would never add that to a canonical title. Other works might get drawn in - the "Fluff" work is a perfect example of that.

39brightcopy
Jun 17, 2012, 1:00pm Top

#33 by lilithcat> Speaking for myself, I'd be really annoyed if one of my books showed up on the work page with a so-called canonical title to which someone had added extraneous material, no matter how well-intentioned.

Just a small question for clarification - why? I'm not saying you shouldn't be or anything. Just looking for more info. Is it because you often have the Canonical Title or Work Title fields as part of your catalog view? Or is it that you just don't like seeing it at the bottom of the "Your book information"? Or does it bug you if you look at the CK section on the work page? Or is it all of the above? :D

Just asking because I don't have much of an opinion on it one way or the other. I'm just curious to know more about how you view it.

40lilithcat
Jun 17, 2012, 1:10pm Top

> 39

The canonical title is supposed to be exactly that: the title of the work. Things like "Illustrated" or "three thrilling novels in one volume!" or "Penguin classics" aren't part of the title, and it offends my sense of order to have them included.

41brightcopy
Jun 17, 2012, 3:10pm Top

#40 by lilithcat> Ah, okay. It's just that you phrased it with "one of my books", as if it were any different than any other book having the weird CT on it. But I get what you're saying. The "sense of order" is why we get sucked into sorting out some huge series of books, all manged and needing combination/separation and CK fixes, all for books that we're likely to never own ourselves. X)

42prosfilaes
Jun 17, 2012, 5:02pm Top

#30: The system's not static. If someone adds a book "Fluff" to the system, it will attach to the edition Fluff, and thus all books under the edition "Fluff" should be treated the same. The (#1022) edition should probably be combined back in, but it would be nice to have a note in the disambig notice why it's the children's book. If the info's hidden away in notes, it's not part of the edition.

43fdholt
Jun 17, 2012, 5:30pm Top

#42 The three are back together with a disambiguation note not to combine with the adult book and the name of the publisher as listed in the three libraries. Doesn't solve the problem of the stray cover but that may resolve itself at some point.

44lorax
Jun 17, 2012, 6:28pm Top

Thanks, Tim. I've been wanting this feature for years.

45jasbro
Jun 17, 2012, 10:27pm Top

Wishin' there were a filter for those I've opined on, and those I haven't; we're gettin' to a point it's hard to tell where I'm going, where I've been, and what I've missed betwixt 'n' between.

The pony might be to let us vote once and for all on the reiterative walri (plural of "walrus"?), or all the collection images, or all the Kindles, or all the CD icons, or all the PG logos, and have that vote count for each recurrance -- in some cases, maybe even sanctioning CD / Kindle / ebook images, akin to default cover images?

And the cherry on top: moving all those lovely author photos to (you guessed it!) Author Photos. I've wanted to do that 2 forevers!

46SylviaC
Jun 17, 2012, 10:56pm Top

the reiterative walri

Don't worry--I'm over two-thirds of the way through flagging walri.

47eromsted
Jun 18, 2012, 12:10am Top

I would like to once again say that I am opposed to using this tool to suppress massimoterrile's author photos. The problem in that case is the works not the images. If an author can be a work, a portrait can be a cover.

More practically, the images are the best way to tell when one of the author photo works has been combined with a real work. While going through the flagged covers I found eleven improperly combined author photos. Those would have been very difficult to spot if the images had been suppressed.

48SylviaC
Jun 18, 2012, 8:37am Top

I agree with what eromsted said in #47. The images do match the works, unless they get combined with something else.

49gilroy
Jun 18, 2012, 9:59am Top

These are going to require as much research as the tag combos or the spam work votes.

Oye. More voting. *sigh*

50eromsted
Jun 18, 2012, 10:39am Top

If a cover on a work is flagged and then the edition containing that cover is separated, the "Helpers: Cover flags" page does not update to reflect the new work title/link where the cover is now located.

51krazy4katz
Jun 18, 2012, 1:34pm Top

In defense of author photos as covers, I will say that some of my ebooks from feedbooks.com and mobileread.com have author photos as covers, so I have done that also. When the ebooks are from Amazon, I try to use the most appropriate cover available.

Clicking on the walri also.

k4k

52BarkingMatt
Edited: Jun 18, 2012, 2:36pm Top

But the walrus is wonderful - goo goo g'joob. Now if you showed an eggman ;-)

53krazy4katz
Edited: Jun 18, 2012, 4:55pm Top

How about an octopus's garden in the shade? Would that work?

;-)

k4k

54jasbro
Edited: Jun 18, 2012, 7:13pm Top

> #47, 48 & 51: Thanks for your comments. I had seen lots of such "Author" records, but thought they were somehow incorrect entries -- not appropriate as Works in themselves. If that's the case, however, I'd like to know more about them, particularly if I should be reversing all my "Yes" votes for those cover images.

> #52, 53: Cellophane flowers of yellow and green, towering over your head. Most definitely.

55BarkingMatt
Jun 28, 2012, 4:45am Top

I've seen several proposals where I would like to vote : "this is a cover, but not for this work". How should we deal with these?

56abbottthomas
Edited: Jun 28, 2012, 5:38am Top

Sorry if this has been rased before and I've missed it. I see several 'cover images' which are of unlabelled VHS cassettes in a case - these have been flagged as 'not a cover'. When I manually add an e-book I use a scan of my sleeping Kindle with one of the selection of images available as the generic 'cover' picture.

Would those who flagged the VHS tape also flag my Kindle?

ETA an example - http://www.librarything.com/work/2085370/book/78743022

57r.orrison
Jun 28, 2012, 5:45am Top

Probably, since it isn't a cover image for the book in question. Don't worry about your data though -- as Tim said in the first message "Note, however, that flagging will not change any user's books. It won't change THEIR cover. It will only change how that cover perfuses to other users."

58jjmcgaffey
Jul 1, 2012, 7:31pm Top

56> heh. For my ebooks, I got a more-or-less generic ereader image, cut out the screen, and I paste in the appropriate book cover for each book - like this: http://www.librarything.com/work/41522/summary/23848496 . It's more trouble, but not much, and I have a cover that identifies the book as an ebook but still displays (little tiny, but displays) its cover.

I actually read on my phone, and when I started I was reading on my Palm. But I wanted something that looked like an ereader to me.

59jasbro
Jul 1, 2012, 10:09pm Top

> #58: And I, for one, Would vote in favor of jjmcgaffey's e-reader "cover" images, as opposed to against or undecided. But we really do need something appropriate for e-books and audio books, as long as we (some of us) are using and cataloging them.

60krazy4katz
Jul 1, 2012, 10:34pm Top

>58 jjmcgaffey: Cute! I like it.

61timspalding
Jul 1, 2012, 11:54pm Top

Hmm, it occurs to me what you're worried about. You'll get a bunch of users clicking on the button to say that a certain cover isn't the cover for this book, but that's only because it's not the cover for THEIR edition of the book. My only proposed solution - bury the option so only power users (aka LT's janitors) know where it is. :D

I think it's unworkable.

1. To work, you'd need to be on a specific user's book. And it would probably have to be not your own--because you can already change your own--yet one you have total knowledge about. That seems rare to me.

2. Even among power users there is an assumption that isbns and covers have a 1/1 relationship. So if their cover for ISBN X differs from another's cover for ISBN X, the other edition and user is wrong. But in fact ISBNs need only change when the interior matter changes. That is, for every ISBN there is an infinitude of valid, publisher-decreed covers.

62timspalding
Jul 2, 2012, 12:00am Top

I added a qualifier to my title and made it the canonical title to prevent this from happening.

What was the qualifier?

I've seen the media added in square brackets. I'm not against that. Are others?

It sort of depends. I have two books by Thomas B. Hess on Barnett Newman, both simply called "Barnett Newman", both pre-ISBN. One is substantive, one is a booklet. So I added "booklet", between square brackets, to one.

I think "booklet"'s okay, as a subset of media. But I'll concede if others disagree.

The canonical title is supposed to be exactly that: the title of the work. Things like "Illustrated" or "three thrilling novels in one volume!" or "Penguin classics" aren't part of the title, and it offends my sense of order to have them included.

Agreed. Does "DVD" distinguishing a movie and a book offend it?

63lquilter
Jul 2, 2012, 12:06am Top

Can't there be something for "cover for a different book" to handle situations where, e.g., the cover is manifestly a different book based on the visible title ....

64timspalding
Jul 2, 2012, 12:19am Top

Adding right now.

For one thing, the goal of "not a cover" is to allow me apply it across all the images with the same "checksum" (ie., it's the same file underneath).

65AnnaClaire
Jul 2, 2012, 12:36am Top

Maybe this just seems like a good idea because it's past my bedtime, but why not a flag for a generic cover? It would probably be a better option for things like the LibriVox or Project Gutenberg logos and so on since they don't necessarily have proper covers to speak of. That way the "not a cover" flag could be reserved for things like walri.

66brightcopy
Jul 2, 2012, 1:15am Top

#62 by timspalding> I've seen the media added in square brackets. I'm not against that. Are others?
I think "booklet"'s okay, as a subset of media. But I'll concede if others disagree.
Agreed. Does "DVD" distinguishing a movie and a book offend it?

None of these bother me. And from what I've seen, I'm going to venture that no one else gets too bent out of shape about that, either. I really see these main reasons to add stuff in curly/square brackets (I prefer curly because they don't screw up when pasted into Talk and can actually be used in touchstones):

1) When the work was never actually published standalone but a later work with the same name was: e.g. Ender's Game {novelette} vs Ender's Game (the novel). This helps a lot to avoid combination/separation problems.

2) When there's non-literary work: films, operas (performances), music, etc. To me, this is okay because LT is a place to catalog your books. Non-bookish stuff is allowed, but it should mind its manners and make sure not to muck things up for the books. I admit I have no idea what I think the etiquette should be if there was a

3) The situation BarkingMatt outlined to fix the ISBN. I think this applies to other situations I can't think of at the moment where it's maybe not ideal, but it helps avoid limitations in the website that would otherwise screw things up.

What I think is just my opinion and I have no idea if people share it: if there is a book-type work and a film, the film should get tagged {film} (or square brackets if you prefer), even if the novel is a novelization of the film. I just feel the book should get priority on a site about books, even if the novel came first.

Of course, then there's the question of "well, what if they published the script as a book?" I tried to find examples of that, but I find that they're always titled something different, like "Some Movie: The Shooting Script", so there's usually not as much opportunity for confusing, even if LT's algorithm ignores the stuff after the colon. Or they're altogether different, like The Original Hitchhiker Radio Scripts.

---

On a bit of a tangent, I ran across this which perplexed me:
http://www.librarything.com/work/722329/commonknowledge

CT is set to "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy ( [2005])"

And the work title then shows "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (2005 film) ". What bit of wizardry be this? And is the space after the first paren important? And should we be this notation more instead of "{film}"?

67timspalding
Jul 2, 2012, 1:38am Top

>65 AnnaClaire:

Hmm. But what difference would it make? Currently the functionality is intended to work as follows:

spam - kills cover everywhere, potential to have LT alerted to spammy behavior
not a cover - kills cover everywhere
inappropriate cover - kills it only on that work

68timspalding
Jul 2, 2012, 1:40am Top

even if LT's algorithm ignores the stuff after the colon

This is only true as the "guess" it gives to the edition's proper work, when the edition is not already associated with any work.

69BarkingMatt
Edited: Jul 2, 2012, 4:20am Top

> 67:

not a cover - kills cover everywhere
inappropriate cover - kills it only on that work


Kills it? Even for the user who put it there? That wouldn't be good.

Sometimes actual physical books simply have a wrong cover, the picture of which is then correct for that copy.

See: http://www.librarything.com/topic/139150#3466675

70jjwilson61
Jul 2, 2012, 9:19am Top

Kills it? Even for the user who put it there?

Of course not, Tim has stated repeatedly that this won't affect a user's own covers but how they're applied in the common areas.

71aqeeliz
Jul 2, 2012, 9:50am Top

I have seen many generic covers uploaded by user (VHS tape, CD (for audiobook I think), a cover saying 'ebook', photo of ebook reader etc.) marked as 'Not a cover', I agreed with most of them, before changing my mind to undecided.

What is the stance on these? Should these be marked as 'Not a Cover' or just let them stay?

72jjwilson61
Jul 2, 2012, 10:09am Top

The effect of Not A Cover is that they don't show up as the cover on the work page or when a user hasn't explicitely set a cover, so Not A Cover seems the right choice for generic covers to me.

73aqeeliz
Jul 2, 2012, 10:23am Top

Is there any way to undo a flag?

I chose a wrong flag accidentally, (spam, instead of 'Not a cover') and the only thing I could do was vote as No, but no way to undo my flag.

It wasn't any issue in this case (except for maybe counting a spam towards the user who uploaded it), but if someone accidentally flags a cover (it is so easy to flag from cover's information view, it doesn't ask for confirmation, but just flags it), there should be a way to undo it.

74eromsted
Edited: Jul 2, 2012, 10:32am Top

This cover (number 6100405)


was flagged as "inapplicable to this work" on Sense and Sensibility. The cover is an ISBN best guess for 3828976875, originating from this book where it appears to be correct. There is also a copy of Die Günderode with that ISBN. (It was combined with Sense and Sensibility, but I've fixed that.)

There is no way to also flag this cover as inapplicable to Die Günderode. Should there be? Or does it not matter with the way this new cover flag works?

75hailelib
Jul 2, 2012, 10:37am Top

76SylviaC
Edited: Jul 2, 2012, 3:35pm Top

If a cover has been flagged as "inapplicable to this work", and then it is discovered to be a combination issue and the edition is separated and properly combined with the right work, what happens to that flag now that the cover is, in fact, appropriate to the work?

77jasbro
Jul 2, 2012, 10:46am Top

> 66: OK; maybe I'm just not thinking LT-enough this morning. Why "curly/square brackets," and not (parens)?

78henkl
Edited: Jul 2, 2012, 10:55am Top

> 74: The ISBN 3828976875 seems to have been used for all books in a series "Klassiker der Weltliteratur". The cover is therefore also showing on Moby-Dick, Sämtliche Märchen und Erzählungen, The Scarlet Letter, The Good Soldier Svejk, Lost Illusions and Bittere Stories.

79brightcopy
Jul 2, 2012, 12:29pm Top

#77 by jasbro> I think it has to do what LT ignores in the title.

80BarkingMatt
Jul 2, 2012, 12:43pm Top

I think it's just convention. Square brackets have been used for ages to indicate interpolations, or really just anything not actually on the page. It's simply how I was taught to deal with these things (way back in the 1970s).

81brightcopy
Jul 2, 2012, 1:17pm Top

Tim - could you comment on how LT handles parens, curly and square brackets for autocombining? I thought I knew how it worked, but now I'm wondering for sure. Would be nice to get an official response.

82jjmcgaffey
Jul 2, 2012, 3:28pm Top

77-81> I went through this and did some checking, a little while ago (though I wouldn't mind official confirmation!).

In titles, LT ignores anything in parentheses, the same way it ignores anything after a colon; such an entry doesn't prevent auto-combining.

The contents of curly brackets and square brackets are both noticed and will (help) prevent auto-combining (which is a good thing, in the case of the distinctions we're trying to make here). However, square brackets mean something else, touchstones, in Talk, so a book with square brackets in its title is a _pain_ to touchstone or even to reference (without intentionally touchstoning) in Talk.

I was using square brackets (because, as BarkingMatt said, it's the standard), but I'm now in the process of switching them all to curly brackets. It seems the most useful choice.

83brightcopy
Jul 2, 2012, 3:39pm Top

#82 by jjmcgaffey> Well, I think I was part of that checking:
http://www.librarything.com/topic/133007#3251932

But I was fiddling with it and I'm not so sure anymore. Part of it might just be that I polluted my examples and they don't work the same anymore.

I just thought I'd ask Tim for clarification because it's easy to get mixed up.

84eromsted
Jul 5, 2012, 11:53am Top

I want to bump the question I posed in 74 above. What do we do when the same cover appears incorrectly on multiple works?

85BarkingMatt
Edited: Jul 5, 2012, 12:05pm Top

We can now flag them as inappropriate for the work.

Oops, you knew that.

does it not matter with the way this new cover flag works?

I certainly hope it does. Inappropriate for one work may be totally appropriate for another.

There is no way to also flag this cover as inapplicable to Die Günderode

Yes there is, and it's been done. Could be an upgrade of the feature that was implemented silently.

86eromsted
Jul 5, 2012, 12:20pm Top

>85 BarkingMatt:
Yes there is, and it's been done. Could be an upgrade of the feature that was implemented silently.

I'm fairly sure it hasn't. The vote score from the original flag appears in the cover information box regardless of the work you are looking at. Check some of the other works mentioned by henkl in 78. I would have noticed if this cover had showed up in the main voting list multiple times. And I certainly would have noticed voting on it multiple times :)

87BarkingMatt
Edited: Jul 6, 2012, 1:33am Top

What? Sheesh, you're right. This is bad with capital B. Yes, that cover is totally wrong for "Sense and sensibility", but not for "Vanity Fair".

88henkl
Jul 5, 2012, 1:14pm Top

Ouch, so it is now also flagged on Vanity Fair.

89Schmerguls
Edited: Jul 6, 2012, 9:02am Top

>40 lilithcat: and >62 timspalding::

You say that "Illustrated" is not a part of the title. I always record the title exactly as it appears on the title page. As I result I can state that these are the titles as copied from the title page:

1244. Portrait of Hesse An Illustrated Biography by Bernhard Zeller Translated by Mark Hollebone (read 17 Sept 1973)
2230. The National League: An Illustrated History Revised and Updated, by Donald Honig (read 6 Sep 1989)
2582. The Supreme Court Justices: Illustrated Biographies, 1789-1993, Edited by Clare Cushman (read 19 Feb 1994)
2966. The Cambridge Illustrated History of the British Empire, edited by P. J. Marshall (read 18 Mar 1997)
3029. The Oxford Illustrated History of Modern Europe, edited by T. C. W. Blanning (read 3 Nov 1997)
3672. The Illustrated Zuleika Dobson or An Oxford Love Story, by Max Beerbohm (read 29 Dec 2002)
4609. The First 125 Years An Illustrated History of The Georgetown University Law Center (read 20 Aug 2009)

Touchstones seems to agree that the titles are as I indicate.

90BarkingMatt
Jul 6, 2012, 9:18am Top

I agree. In principle the title is how it's presented on the title page - maybe that's why it's called a title page.

On the other hand I really wished publishers wouldn't put that kind of stuff on title pages. I especially hate German publishers calling just about anything "Sonderausgabe" (special edition). Yeah, right... Sure, every edition is special somehow.

91jasbro
Jul 6, 2012, 10:56am Top

> 90: I've noticed that too, and have long wondered whether it has a particular significance within the German publishing industry, kinda like "Qualitätswein" or "Trockenbeerenauslese" each have a distinct meaning for German wines.

I can see that a first printing might be the "erstausgabe," and the original publisher's reprints may be "Nachdrucke." "Sonderausgabe" then might be a term-of-art for a second publisher's edition, perhaps under special license, or for a work reprinted from the public domain.

Before I flag all covers that boast "Illustriert!", "Drei spannenden Romane in einem Band!", or "Sonderausgabe!" as inappropriate, does anybody out there know for sure? (Oh, and see how neatly I circled back to the cover-flagging thread at hand?)

92BarkingMatt
Edited: Jul 6, 2012, 11:14am Top

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure how they use that either.

I would only flag covers as inappropriate that really, really are inappropriate: cover says "Hamlet", work says "Dracula" - that sort of thing. If publishers decide to put a thing like "illustrated" on a cover, that doesn't automatically mean the cover doesn't fit the work.

93MarthaJeanne
Edited: Jul 6, 2012, 3:56pm Top

A 'Sonderausgabe' is usually a licensed edition. There are a couple of very active book clubs, as well as at least one major bookstore/publisher chain that has many cheaper editions of books that were first published by someone else. Somewhere their editions will say something like 'Sonderausgabe für die Fa. ...'. Those available on the open market will often have a big sticker on the front saying 'Sonderausgabe' and then comparing the present low price to the original much higher one.

comes from the cover of http://www.librarything.com/work/12767002/book/87423926, and says 'Onetime special edition' along with the price. The book is made up of three books that have been previously published. Seeing as the three books are all available at 6.50 each, this really is a very good deal.

94SylviaC
Jul 6, 2012, 4:20pm Top

I would still like to know what happens to flagged covers if an edition is separated from one work, and properly combined with another. I have seen a couple of covers flagged as "inapplicable to this work" that were really combination issues, so I'd like to know how to deal with them.

95jasbro
Jul 6, 2012, 9:40pm Top

> 93: Thanks for the insight, MarthaJeanne! That's also a splendid example of "Drei spannenden Romane in einem Band!." (If the publisher had only thought to put that on its cover ... .)

96eromsted
Jul 6, 2012, 11:21pm Top

Here's another variation on some of the issues above:

A cover for the Monarch's Notes for The Plays of Sophocles was flagged as inapplicable to King Lear. The cover was on an edition of the Monarch's Notes for King Lear. I've separated the Monarch's notes editions from the main work. The cover, though, is clearly inapplicable to this new work as well. Now what?

97eromsted
Jul 6, 2012, 11:28pm Top

Oh, and a request. It would be useful if the covers on the helpers page had the cover information lightbox link.

98MarthaJeanne
Edited: Jul 7, 2012, 2:10am Top

95> No, not 'drei spannende Romane'. Three moderately interesting collections of short stories for first graders. (For 6 and 7 year old boys, MUCH more interresting than the current Austrian equivalent of 'Dick, Jane and Sally'. I'm still not sure why anyone would learn to read when that stuff is what they are offered.)

BTW, I still haven't figured out why every novel in German has to have ': ein Roman' added to the title. I usually take it out.

99rebeccanyc
Jul 7, 2012, 7:36am Top

#96 I was the one who flagged the Monarch's Notes for the Plays of Sophocles as inapplicable to King Lear, because I've been going through my books with blank covers trying to find covers for them. And I only did this yesterday, so you are really on top of this, eromsted! Although in this case it doesn't belong to King Lear either, how is someone like me to know if a book with the wrong cover really is the right book? I am not systematically going through cover choices, but encounter them as I try to find user-uploaded covers for my books.

100eromsted
Edited: Jul 7, 2012, 9:42am Top

>99 rebeccanyc:
The cover information box can provide two useful clues as to whether a cover should be flagged as inapplicable or if it is a case of mis-combination, the ISBN and the uploading member.

If an ISBN is listed, copy it and go to the editions page. Search for the ISBN and see if the editions with that ISBN belong in the work. If there is no ISBN listed, you can scan through the editions without ISBNs and see if anything looks out of place. Both of these tasks are made much easier using brightcopy's Work Editions Grid Greasemonkey script

If an uploading member is listed, click to that member's profile and search for book. Sometimes searching for the author is better as there may be a translated or other alternate title. When you find the book with the offending cover, check the book information page for the publication information to see if the book really belongs in the work.

If the publication information tells you it should be separate but the title and author match the main work and there is no ISBN then there's nothing you can do. Flag away. That's the case for all of those Dracula covers I recently flagged. They are abridgements or adaptions based on the publication information but the listed title and author is Dracula by Bram Stoker and there is no ISBN. (I found them in the extraordinary collection of Dracula editions in wayneandmelinda's library.)

101rebeccanyc
Jul 7, 2012, 10:41am Top

Thanks for the advice. Probably more than I want to do while I'm updating my own covers, so I'll probably shy away from flagging covers that are inappropriate for now. However, it is good to know in case I take this on as a project later.

Most of the books I don't have covers for are pre-ISBN (the King Lear, for example, dates to high school and the late 1960s) so, when I see ISBNs for a cover that looks like mine, I assume that either the publisher kept the cover for a later printing after ISBNs were introduced or that someone made a mistake.

102BarkingMatt
Jul 7, 2012, 10:55am Top

And both are entirely possible.

103birder4106
Jul 9, 2012, 3:15am Top

>98 MarthaJeanne:

"BTW, I still haven't figured out why every novel in German has to have ': ein Roman' added to the title. I usually take it out."
Me too.

104jasbro
Edited: Jul 9, 2012, 12:16pm Top

> 98, 103: "I still haven't figured out why every novel in German has to have ': ein Roman'."

As best I can tell, it distinguishes die Romane from die Dramen, die Gedichte, and die Geschichten. Which I take to mean that the German publishers' tradition is much the same as that of any other country or regional practice ... only maybe more consistently so.

In the interest of obsession, I try to reflect text actually appearing on the title page of our physical copy of a book when cataloging, but (try to) use such descriptors on Canonical Titles only for distinguishing, for example: William Faulkner's Requiem for a Nun from Ruth Ford's Requiem for a Nun: A Play. But don't quote me on that, please; I'm notoriously irregular when it comes to stuff in which I have no stake apart from personal interest.

105jasbro
Jul 9, 2012, 3:00pm Top

Death without Company has an incorrect cover from The Omnivore's Dilemma proposed by Amazon, probably from some ISBN "sharing" (whether or not it's intentional). As best I can tell, we can't (yet) flag it as inapplicable to the book, so we just live with it. Yes? No? Either way, thanks for your help.

106brightcopy
Jul 9, 2012, 3:04pm Top

Ugh, this is where I we need that ratty data flag Tim keeps tempting us with. It's because someone has the ISBN for TOD but with the title for DWC:
Death Without Company / Johnson, Craig (ISBN 0143038583) (9 copies; 1.1.1 separate)

It's one of those errors that's kind of unfixable without a ratty data flag that includes the aspect of not using the ISBN for amazon covers.

107BarkingMatt
Jul 9, 2012, 3:14pm Top

Yes, could we please, please, pretty please get some way of flagging Amazon provided covers as inappropriate to work.

108brightcopy
Jul 9, 2012, 3:17pm Top

That's not really the case here, though. The work just contains bad data that can't be separated out. The edition needs to be flagged, not the cover. Otherwise, it's a bit of a band-aid.

But who knows, maybe we need the band-aid because it will be "two weeks" before we get the ratty-data flag.

109BarkingMatt
Jul 9, 2012, 3:20pm Top

Aw, I really really want a ratty-data flag! That would be great.

110krazy4katz
Jul 9, 2012, 4:26pm Top

109> I keep wondering...what would a ratty data flag look like? k4k

111brightcopy
Jul 9, 2012, 4:38pm Top

It would look like a regular data flag, only a lot more ratty.

112krazy4katz
Jul 9, 2012, 4:53pm Top

Oh. Yeah. Why didn't I think of that?

113eromsted
Jul 9, 2012, 4:57pm Top

What's the best way to discuss or comment on cover flag proposals? I've noticed undecided or no votes on some of my flags and I'd be happy to explain, but I'm not sure where to put the explanation. Should we have a thread in Combiners like for tag vote discussions? One difficulty is that unlike tag pages there is no linkable page for the cover information. So how would we refer people to particular flagged covers? Perhaps there should be a comments section right on the flag voting page.

We also need to know what the voting thresholds are. And it would be very useful to have a filter for over and under threshold votes like on the tag and spam voting pages.

114jasbro
Edited: Jul 9, 2012, 4:58pm Top

My vote for ratty data flag goes to Templeton, http://cartooncharacters.wikia.com/wiki/Templeton_the_rat

Or maybe Reepicheep, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reepicheep

But there's also this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthpicturegalleries/5893236/Talented-musical-...

Regardless, licensing issues are likely for all of them. Surely there are rats in the public domain -- maybe a 19th Century Aesop, or The Pied Piper of Hamelin?

115brightcopy
Jul 9, 2012, 5:24pm Top

Sadly, it won't be named "ratty". Not officially. People felt like they were being judged.

...

116lorax
Jul 9, 2012, 7:08pm Top

And it probably won't be called a flag, for the same reason.

"Marker for data that may be possibly considered slightly imperfect for using at the work level by the most sticklerish of sticklers" will probably pass muster for indicating that Mark Twain didn't actually write Moby Dick, but anything less hedged about with qualifiers would probably draw screams of outrage.

117AnnaClaire
Jul 9, 2012, 7:09pm Top

>115 brightcopy:
Well, as long as its name reflects its purpose.

On the other hand, if ratty data is merely hidden once sufficiently flagged but remains visible to the perpetrator(s) of said rattiness, we can call it whatever we like with minimal risk of causing offense. I gather that is how the cover flags are supposed to work.

118jasbro
Edited: Jul 9, 2012, 7:15pm Top

> 113: Hear, hear! I've also missed having insights or comments on cover flags, as there have b een some votes I wasn't quite sure of (at least not until I made up my mind on a standard, to tried voting that way consistently).

> 115: That only makes our flag of choice a greater challenge -- how to depict in a single icon "Quite valuable as information, I'm sure; but is it really applicable to THIS Work?"

> 116: Can't we scream in outrage too? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Scream.jpg

119AnnaClaire
Jul 9, 2012, 7:12pm Top

>116 lorax:
Perhaps to start with, we can start with a mere "This is not correct" for such cases. Either way, rumors of such wrongness's demise will (probably) be greatly exaggerated, so at some point that flag can morph into a "ratty data" flag of the more common and/or garden variety.

120BarkingMatt
Jul 10, 2012, 3:16am Top

> 120: Should we have a thread in Combiners like for tag vote discussions?

Good idea. Though maybe we should put it in the flaggers group. http://www.librarything.com/groups/flaggers

But I agree the helpers page (http://www.librarything.com/helpers_covers.php) is not ideal for linking purposes.

121Schmerguls
Jul 10, 2012, 8:18am Top

Is there some simple way to post a cover of a book one has read if such cover is not shown on LibraryThing? I tried to do such once but found it too complicated for me. Is it simpler now?

122BarkingMatt
Jul 10, 2012, 8:33am Top

I think it's fairly simple - but you might disagree.

Only real obstacle: you can't upload covers for books not in your catalogue.

123lilithcat
Jul 10, 2012, 8:37am Top

> 113

There is a thread for that here.

124eromsted
Jul 10, 2012, 9:44am Top

>120 BarkingMatt:, 123
Thanks. I've now posted in that thread in flaggers. Lets see how people do interpreting my cover descriptions. If that doesn't work well we really need some way to link directly to particular flagged covers.

125Schmerguls
Jul 10, 2012, 7:40pm Top

I think it's fairly simple - but you might disagree.
Only real obstacle: you can't upload covers for books not in your catalogue.

I would have no interest in having a cover for a book not in my listings. Is there some polace which tells me how to put a cover on my listing in place of the generic cover?

126lilithcat
Edited: Jul 10, 2012, 7:45pm Top

> 125

is there some place which tells me how to put a cover on my listing in place of the generic cover?

There are three ways. They all start by clicking on "change cover". You'll then be able to see all previously uploaded covers. You can:

1. Select one of the covers already uploaded, or
2. Upload your own from a file on your computer, or
3. Upload one from the web by entering the URL in the field provided.

127jjwilson61
Jul 10, 2012, 8:07pm Top

One way is to click on the cover in the listing on the Your Books tab. You can also do it through the edit book page.

128jjmcgaffey
Edited: Jul 10, 2012, 8:16pm Top

126> These three choices vary a bit in difficulty.

1. Very easy - the covers are there, look at them and decide if any of them are a) the right cover and b) of sufficient quality to satisfy you. If one (or more) are right and good enough, click to Choose this cover and you're done. Of course, this only works if someone else has uploaded a cover. Note - it's better not to use an Amazon cover; they can change after the fact, if Amazon assigns a different cover to the ISBN on your book. The Member-uploaded are better.
2. This one is complicated first, then easy. Uploading is easy, but first you need to get the cover as a file on your computer. You need to scan it or take a picture, clean it up (crop extra stuff that's showing around the cover, straighten the image, maybe correct scratches/color/whatever to make it look good), then save it as .jpg or .png (there are others, but those two are simplest/best, IMO), in a size/resolution that is less than 2Mb. I make mine 300dpi and 1000 pixels high and save at 100% quality as .jpgs, and they work well for me. There's a lot of variation - try stuff out and see what satisfies you. So once you have a good-looking, proper-sized image in a file, click the Browse button on the Change Covers page and go find that file; select it, click Open, then click Upload. LT will (after thinking for a bit) take the cover, apply it to your book, and put it for others to use in the Member-Uploaded section
3. Medium difficulty. You have to find a good cover - some books have lots, some have almost none. Search by title, author in Google Images (or elsewhere - see what you can find); choose a good-looking cover that's a decent size (if it's 100 pixels high, it will be very blurry on LT. Minimum considered "high quality" is 250px high); click on the picture until you have it all by itself on the page. Copy the URL from the location bar (at the top of the screen) into the box with the Grab button after it (make sure you delete or overwrite the http:// that's in the box). Click Grab. LT will apply the cover to your book and put it in Member-Uploaded.

Unless someone else has gone through the steps and created a good (and matching-your-cover) Member-Uploaded cover, it's not extremely simple. But all the difficulty is in making/finding a proper image. Once you've got a good one, putting it on LT is literally just a couple of clicks.

129LucindaLibri
Jul 10, 2012, 11:31pm Top

Is there anyway to see which of the books/works in my own catalog have covers that are flagged? Just found two that had the correct covers, yet got flagged . . . still don't know why. Am I really supposed to hunt through over a thousand flagged covers to find the ones that I know something about?

Can't there be something in our cover stats page that would make this easier?

130jjwilson61
Jul 11, 2012, 9:16am Top

You're making this too complicated. It should be obvious if a picture is a cover or not. And for whether it's a cover of the right book you should be able to tell in the vast majority of cases by reading the Title off the book cover, and in the cases where the Title isn't on the cover then don't worry about it, it's not that important in the great scheme of things.

131JerryMmm
Jul 11, 2012, 10:12am Top

jjmcgaffey - there is no quality difference between saving jpg at 100% or 90%, while there can be a significant filesize difference.

132BarkingMatt
Jul 11, 2012, 10:17am Top

> 130: Should be - yes. But LucindaLibri is understandably upset of this bug : http://www.librarything.com/topic/139639

133jjmcgaffey
Jul 11, 2012, 7:28pm Top

131> None? Some, by definition - do you mean no visible difference? And do you see that apply across the board? Yellow letters on red are a _pain_, and painfully common in covers (very visible) - I find that any reduction in quality gives me weird ripples around the letters. It got so annoying saving, checking, resaving that I just went to 100% quality for everything.

134Schmerguls
Edited: Jul 12, 2012, 7:53am Top

Re #126. Thanks much. No. 1 is obvious and I always use it.

I am going to try to follow No. 2 or 3 and will see if I am too dumb or not.

135jasbro
Jul 12, 2012, 11:33am Top

> 134: I vote "not." (Oh, wait; we weren't asked to vote on that ... .)

136JerryMmm
Jul 12, 2012, 3:11pm Top

jjmcgaffey: I've not found any difference going from 100% to 95%. But, I know that even going from 100% to 98% will mean a reduction in size worth considering, given how many covers get uploaded.
That's why I mainly responded, given your advice on how to scan and upload covers.

137eromsted
Edited: Jul 12, 2012, 3:16pm Top

If a cover becomes the best guess for an ISBN it can appear on any book that has that ISBN regardless of what work that book is in. Is this ever useful? What I see from this feature are wrong covers on books and works because of bad data and publisher reuse of ISBNs. Wouldn't it be better if the best guess covers only applied to books within the same work?

If that were true we wouldn't have to distinguish between "not a cover" and "not applicable to this work." And as I have yet to see something I would call a spam cover that wasn't on a spam work, I think we could probably do with only one cover flag.

138lorax
Jul 12, 2012, 3:33pm Top

137>

What about something like the "covers" here:

http://www.librarything.com/catalog/MsMixte&tag=Tama&alias=1

(If the parameters don't come through, search in MsMixte's catalog for books tagged "Tama". Those are where she's using a placeholder cover.)

The cat artwork isn't spam, but it's also not a cover, for any of those books. It's a placeholder for books where she doesn't have a cover - fine in her own catalog, but it has no business showing up as a "best guess" for any of them.

139eromsted
Jul 12, 2012, 3:38pm Top

>138 lorax:
So perhaps I should have been more explicit. The one remaining flag in my thinking above would be, "not a cover for this work." All those cat covers would certainly fall under that flag. But we wouldn't have to worry about a stronger "not a cover" flag if covers couldn't profuse between works. And I haven't seen the need for a spam cover flag.

140jasbro
Jul 12, 2012, 4:44pm Top

> 139: A useful perspective, and one I gravitated toward even as I composed my screed. (See http://www.librarything.com/topic/139236#3486549 -- or maybe don't).

If our only flagging choice were "not a cover for this work," and the only effect of cumulative "yes" votes would be to prevent the image from profusion with its related Work, wouldn't that serve our purpose?

Thanks for the thought, eromsted!

141r.orrison
Jul 22, 2012, 3:32pm Top

Any chance we can get "Not a cover for this work" flagging for Amazon covers?

E.g. http://www.librarything.com/work/578489/covers

(See also http://www.librarything.com/topic/93383)

142eromsted
Jul 22, 2012, 3:58pm Top

>141 r.orrison:
I like the idea, but I'm not sure how it would work. I believe LT doesn't store amazon covers, it just sends the ISBNs associated with the work to amazon and they send back whatever covers they have for those ISBNs. So a flag on LT would have to say don't display the amazon cover for this ISBN on this work. But a wrong amazon cover could have two sources: a wrong ISBN work match at LT or a wrong cover ISBN match at amazon. Flagging the former makes sense, but the latter should be dealt with by submitting a report with amazon.

143r.orrison
Jul 22, 2012, 4:13pm Top

Since I'm not a fan of Amazon covers in general, I would be happy if it said "don't ever use the Amazon cover for this ISBN as the work cover for this work".

(Yes, even if it is bad data at Amazon's end that could theoretically be fixed some day maybe if someone reports it.)

144Collectorator
Jul 22, 2012, 4:14pm Top

Flagging the former makes sense, but you can't, and flagging doesn't DO anything to any cover anyway.

145BarkingMatt
Edited: Jul 22, 2012, 4:20pm Top

Not so far. We live in anticipation, but it would be nice if a next stage got implemented.

You're right though - I'm pretty much ready to give up on this entirely.

146PhaedraB
Jul 22, 2012, 5:22pm Top

There's not much point in flagging an Amazon cover, as it could be changed at any time from Amazon's end. You flag it, someone else sends Amazon a correction, and the next thing you know the flag is on a correct cover. It's just not a controlled situation.

147Collectorator
Jul 22, 2012, 5:30pm Top

146, You have to be able to distinguish between the two types of problems that can be associated with Amazon covers.

One problem is that Amazon sends the wrong cover: flagging is not the answer; making Amazon fix it is the answer.

The other problems is that an LT user enters the wrong ISBN number on their book: flagging would be the answer.

Flags are for errors within LT. See?

148r.orrison
Edited: Jul 22, 2012, 5:39pm Top

So how do you propose LT deal with problems like http://www.librarything.com/work/578489? I guess the right answer is the ratty data flag, to apply to the incorrect ISBN on the work. But what's the likelihood of that happening? I think we've got a much better chance of getting a flag on the cover itself.

(It's not an Amazon issue: Amazon has the right cover for the ISBN.)

Also http://www.librarything.com/work/9093410 - I'm not sure why that cover is showing up in this case, but it sure would be nice to be able to just flag it.

(And yes, it would be nice if the flagging also worked. But hey, one thing at a time!)

149Collectorator
Jul 22, 2012, 5:40pm Top

I think that image should be able to be flagged, and then suppressed someday, whenever flagging does actually suppress the image.

150Collectorator
Jul 22, 2012, 5:47pm Top

As for that second work, that seems to be a combination of Amazon sending the wrong image ---but it's not their fault: see http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=0000000027&qt=results_page and also an LT user using a bogus ISBN. That image pops up on another book here on LT, too: http://www.librarything.com/work/1837029

The use of the ISBN is bogus on both works, and would be on any work, really, because it could possibly call up any number of images. The answer is to suppress the cover by flagging.

151TrentJerome
Aug 1, 2012, 4:52pm Top

I think it would be a great idea for librarything if either:

1. Member-uploaded book pictures could be flagged for deletion based on poor quality. Or

2. The system would automatically reject member-uploaded pictures under a certain size or resolution.

There are just so many very poor pictures that clutter up the options. If the standards were higher for uploads, I think it would be a good thing. I see a large amount of drastically sub-par pictures, and would love for a way to objectively have pictures removed.

152lilithcat
Aug 1, 2012, 5:44pm Top

> 151

I would be strenuously opposed to either of those options, for the simple reason that often it is the so-called "poor quality" image that is the only accurate image available of a cover.

153Keeline
Aug 1, 2012, 6:45pm Top

I think it has been suggested before but I still like the notion of using the crowd sourcing at LT to group images that are the same or very similar. Then one could select the group image that is close and select the most appropriate one from a secondary image list.

Classics like Alice in Wonderland have so many cover images that it is hard to wade through them to find the best one. Instead it is easier to upload a fresh scan which merely compounds the quantity of images problem.

Related to this would be markings to show the most popular image for the ISBN supplied (or work if not), the image currently selected by you or best guess, and the ability to select several for closer comparison.

James

154brightcopy
Aug 1, 2012, 7:08pm Top

#153 by Keeline> I think it has been suggested before but I still like the notion of using the crowd sourcing at LT to group images that are the same or very similar.

Indeed it has. I even made a mockup once upon a time:

Before:


After:

155guido47
Aug 1, 2012, 7:31pm Top

And #154, as I said once upon a time, I love the idea.
Currently I scan each and every book I add, to avoid Amazon covers, to ensure reasonable quality , and to capture every "scratch and dint" on my books :-)

156BarkingMatt
Aug 2, 2012, 2:40am Top

Interesting. In this case (http://www.librarything.com/work/599067/covers/27266318) Amazon seems to have taken over a non-cover from LT.

157aqeeliz
Aug 2, 2012, 7:45am Top

Loved the idea in #153. Maybe someone should post it in 'Recommended Site Improvements' (again!).

158MarthaJeanne
Aug 2, 2012, 10:17am Top

153. 154> So what are you suggesting happens to the image shown fourth in the second row. It may be 'similar' to the one in the middle of the top row, but is certainly NOT the same. I would never accept the cover with the title straight as my cover if my cover had the title on diagonally.

159BarkingMatt
Aug 2, 2012, 10:20am Top

Yes, I would rather have a poor quality correct cover than a high quality incorrect cover.

160brightcopy
Edited: Aug 2, 2012, 10:23am Top

#158 by MarthaJeanne> What I suggest is you click the "(similar covers)" link right below it an pick your appropriate one from the expanded list.

And, as always, such a feature should have a toggle that lets you view them as grouped/not-grouped. That way people who hate it can go about their business as if the site hasn't ever changed.

161BarkingMatt
Aug 2, 2012, 10:23am Top

Ah, okay.

162r.orrison
Aug 2, 2012, 10:53am Top

158: I would never accept the cover with the title straight as my cover if my cover had the title on diagonally.

I wouldn't expect anything to ever change the cover that a user selected*. The grouping would be wonderful for people just admiring the wide array of covers, but you'd still have to be able to select or upload your own cover and have it stick permanently.

* Unless they choose an Amazon cover, of course.

163brightcopy
Aug 2, 2012, 11:00am Top

#162 by r.orrison> And not just for admiring. I've had difficulty finding my cover before in a sea of covers for popular works that have been around a while and published in multiple countries. Grouped covers would make it a lot easier for me to zero in on MY cover.

164jasbro
Aug 2, 2012, 7:25pm Top

#153, 154: I like the idea of crowd sourcing to group images that are the same or very similar. It might dissuade me from guido47's practice of "scan{ning} each and every book I add, to avoid Amazon covers, {and} to ensure reasonable quality ... ." (OK, so maybe I don't "capture every 'scratch and dint' on my books" -- that's about the only time I look for a near-suitable substitute, and that's often still disappointing.)

165Keeline
Aug 2, 2012, 8:57pm Top

Those scratches and "dints" must be pretty large to show up in the tiny LT thumbnail images. I think a piece missing would have to be the proverbial size of a small postage stamp to be more than noise on the image.

For my juvenile series books I scanned all of my covers rather than use anything in the system. The mobile site (/m) doesn't show my covers so it doesn't work well for upgrade opportunities on the road. Using the full site isn't great either because the pages are so heavy from a download and rendering standpoint. Hence, I can generally only see my covers at home or on a traveling laptop. Still, I can hope that eventually this data will be easier to access on the road.

When I scan covers I also keep the full-size one (72 dpi, 100%, PNG) for other uses.

For reference and academic books or very recent books where I don't have scratches and "dints", being able to find one of these covers that is right without having to swim through a sea of hundreds of cover images in row after row would be helpful.

It is amusing, especially in other feature suggestion threads, that a vocal minority of LT users express their objection to any change in the way that they do. I suppose that they also stopped using MS Word once some feature they were used to changed or was removed. Sometimes a change can improve things and sometimes it makes things worse. However, making it seem like they'd start to picket the LT headquarters (virtually speaking, of course) because of a change is not the best way to suss out improvements to the system.

Performance of the system is still a major issue. Many actions take many seconds to complete and are untenable on a mobile device like an iPhone browser. Making every little thing optional is also a problem for the programming and performance. When a database call has to be made to learn if a specific user's profile allows a certain feature, that comes at a price. A Drupal page has about 100 DB queries and these can severely slow the load of a page. I expect that a custom site like LT has similar problems. Each feature (and option) is a trade-off against performance.

James

166krazy4katz
Aug 2, 2012, 10:00pm Top

Any suggestions for those of us with lots of ebooks? Right now, I am mooching off other people's covers with no way to contribute.

167jjmcgaffey
Aug 2, 2012, 10:12pm Top

What do you use to look at your ebooks? If I look at them in calibre, I can right-click and copy the cover (apparently the Kindle app lets you look but not copy).

Personally, I want to be able to see when a book is an ebook, so I make my own covers by taking a semi-generic ereader image with the screen blanked out and pasting a copy of the cover (either the cover I've extracted from calibre, or a nice-looking cover from a paper copy if the ebook one is boring) into the screen area (using GIMP). Take a look at my ebooks collection to see some of them. I apply some cover, though, as soon as I can, so I don't have Amazon covers on my ebooks (or no covers).

168krazy4katz
Edited: Aug 3, 2012, 12:01am Top

So far I have just been using a tag for my ebooks. If I am lucky, the cover is the same as one of the other editions, so I use that. Otherwise, I sometimes use a generic or I copy an image from Amazon (if it is theirs). If it is a book from mobileread or one of the other sites for out of copyright books, I try to find it on the web. I never thought about using Calibre to get covers. I will try that.

Thanks.

169TLCrawford
Aug 3, 2012, 8:48am Top

Most of my ebooks are older, out of copyright works and I do try to use the same cover for all of them. It is one of the standard offerings shown under the "Chose a blank cover" but you do have to click on the "show all 51 covers" link.

For the one and only ebook I purchased I use the member uploaded version of the Amazon cover.

170BarkingMatt
Dec 30, 2012, 5:22pm Top

We now have about 60 pages of flagged covers. Is this ever actually going to do anything?

171lilithcat
Dec 30, 2012, 5:23pm Top

And may we please have the ones we've voted on drop off, as we do with tag combinations?

Pretty please?

172omargosh
Dec 30, 2012, 10:32pm Top

I noticed the flag for a certain cover of Illness as Metaphor (by Sontag) as inapplicable to the work. I discovered that some copies of ISBN 0140124276 (Illness as Metaphor and AIDS and its Metaphors) were being listed only by the first title, so I separated those and recombined them into the two-title work (trying to add a disambiguation notice to the 10 incorrectly titled copies, but I think the notice just got squished into the entire work, and my work will probably get undone later, alas). Anyway, the flagging page now still has it listed as an inappropriate cover for Illness as Metaphor, instead of the two-title work, which is technically true, even though the cover no longer appears on the Illness as Metaphor work page. Should I even worry about this? If voting meets threshold, will the cover be "killed" by getting zapped entirely from the system, or just from association with the one-title work (and survive its new association with the two-title work)? Me be confused.

173jasbro
Edited: Mar 11, 2013, 11:19am Top

> 172: I'm reluctant to separate and recombine records for any single title (first or otherwise) on the basis of ISBN alone, since it appears that some Members will enter each constituent Work in their catalogs rather than entering a two-title volume as a single Work. I suppose the real test may be whether the same Members also enter the other constituent Work(s) as single-title records with the two-title volume's ISBN.

In this case, if a Member enters both Susan Sontag's Illness as Metaphor and AIDS and Its Metaphors with ISBN 0140124276, the first and second titles should combine respectively with their separate Works, and not with the two-volume edition.

Does that make sense?

174BarkingMatt
Mar 11, 2013, 4:04pm Top

If title and ISBN are conflicting I will trust title way sooner than ISBN (on LT that is). Users may easily correct a title without bothering to change ISBN.

175omargosh
Mar 14, 2013, 9:32pm Top

Sorry, yeah, I was clearly proceeding incorrectly on this one. I see that you guys have been kind enough to already clean up both my bad separation/recombination work and my bad disambiguation messages. Thank you.

176jasbro
Edited: Mar 15, 2013, 11:20pm Top

> 174: I must confess that I'm coming to appreciate less detailed cataloging (including correct ISBNs), at least initially, as thus far (a little over four years now) I've only managed about 25% of what I've meant to do. The CueCat helps immensely, of course, but coordinating with an original catalog (30 years and counting), cover scans, editing (including ISBN confirmation), reconciling editions, and tagging -- it's all the good stuff that's slowing me down!

Anybody have thoughts or suggestions on tackling such a job, maybe reference to another thread? 'Cause I'd rather be reading than cataloging. {Well, almost ... :o)} I've even thought to just copy/paste everybody else's tags for any given record, and let God sort 'em, out!

177MerryMary
Mar 15, 2013, 8:13pm Top

I'm afraid I'm no help. I added every single one of mine, and loved the process.

So my advice would be: Enjoy the journey. (but then, I'm retired, so I have the time.)

178jjmcgaffey
Mar 16, 2013, 3:06am Top

I got the majority of my books in, with (for those that had them) correct ISBNs and titles, in about 6 months to a year. I'm now - 6 years later - still working on covers - 2/3 done, about (and it was a real rush of joy when the number done exceeded the number still to do!). Tags mostly got put on at the time, though I keep finding other things I want to tag and have to go back (Power Edit is your friend...).

And of course I get more books all the time...purchased or from the library or borrowed elsewhere. And I'm adding ebooks as I read them, and then there's the inclusions (books in omnibuses, that I want to review separately). It's a neverending task, but like MerryMary I enjoy the work. Now when I add a few books, I get it all right (except for the covers - that takes a bit longer, because of scanning), so I won't need to go back and work on those books. Unless I decide I need to record something else in tags, of course. When I eventually get all the covers in - all the backlog - I'll think about what else I want to do. I don't _think_ I plan to do the physical descriptions, but by then I may have changed my mind.

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