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Why I voted "Undecided"? (Tag separation/combination)

Combiners!

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1marq
Edited: Jul 2, 2012, 8:57am Top

I proposed "822 - British Drama" with "British Drama". 822 is the Dewey number for "British Drama" (http://dewey.info/class/822/about.en). Currently 3 yes and 4 undecided.

Is it that books could be tagged "British Drama" because they are British plays, about British Drama or (e.g.) they are about breeding frogs but are kept in the "British Drama" box, where if a book is tagged with the Dewey number, it means something very specific?

2Nicole_VanK
Jul 2, 2012, 12:04pm Top

Can only speak for myself. I vote undecided on such things because I don't know what the 822 stands for. You say Dewey, fine - probably, even very likely. But couldn't it possibly also mean something else? So many codes around internationally. Could, though unlikely in this case, also mean a year.

Won't actively vote against these things. But I'm undecided, so I vote accordingly.

3marq
Jul 2, 2012, 6:46pm Top

Actually, 822 is the Dewey number for "English Drama" (I didn't read my own link!).

4lorax
Jul 6, 2012, 4:55pm Top

2>

There's one person using this tag, who also uses a number of similarly-constructed tags where the numbers also correspond to the Dewey classifications. So I think in this case it's 99% certain that that is, in fact, what the number is intended to refer to.

http://www.librarything.com/tags/BenAndShan

5marq
Jul 6, 2012, 7:12pm Top

Yes. I think its likely that people will use the Dewey classification as a tag, even though there is a field for it.

In general, would we combine a Dewy classification tag with the description alone e.g. "181 - Eastern Philosophy" with "Eastern Philosophy"?

I'm favouring "No". It is like combining "This is a book mainly about/of Eastern Philosophy" with "This is a book that has something to do with Eastern Philosophy".

6jjwilson61
Jul 6, 2012, 11:30pm Top

Good lord. This should be about creating good connections, not building some ivory tower of ultimate meaning.

7andejons
Aug 15, 2012, 3:36am Top

Haven't actually voted yet, but I wonder why there's a separation proposal for "Karel V" and "karel v"?

8Nicole_VanK
Edited: Aug 15, 2012, 3:54am Top

Ah, sorry, forgot to post that one in the please vote against my suggestion thread.

9omargosh
Dec 26, 2012, 6:24pm Top

I felt torn about voting "Undecided" for God - Biblical teaching and God - Biblical Teachings. I do, in fact, support their combination, but I've found it tough for future combinations to gain support when the proposed singular doesn't match the winningest plural or vice versa. For example, the combination of neighbourhood into neighborhoods is currently 7+ to 4-, even though "neighborhoods" contains "neighbordhood" and "Neighborhood" and "Neighboorhood." (see also my proposals for neighbour into "neighbors" and "Supersticiones into "superstition").

If I were craftier, I would temporarily fill up my library with the necessary singular or plural tag to change the winningest tag and thus get more support, haha, but that doesn't seem right. (I should probably just propose some separations). I imagine for the "God - Biblical teaching(s)" case, it won't matter too much, since it's rather specific and probably won't have too many future combo proposals, and again, I do support its combination, but I think it's something to think about when making both proposals and voting decisions.

10omargosh
Dec 30, 2012, 12:53am Top

I voted "Undecided" on combining viaggio into travel. I don't speak Italian, but if viaggio is like its Spanish cognate, viaje, in addition to the more conceptual "travel", it could also refer to a more concrete "trip", "journey", "voyage". The translation really depends on the context. But I didn't want to vote it down either, because in terms of classificatory tagging, it's probably more likely people are using it in the sense of "travel".

11lillilupe
Dec 30, 2012, 5:24am Top

I do not know exactly how to use "travel" in English.

I can say that in Italian has many meanings, I hope to be able to explain:
- Simple movement from one place to another, by train, by plane, by car, also in the subway, but if it has a certain length, not too short.
- Short move, but with difficulty, for example, carrying in hands something heavy. If I bring all my books from one room to another, I will have to do a lot of "viaggi".
- Holiday
- Figuratively: "viaggio" with the imagination, the mind, the feelings
- With drugs
- Time travel
- It also can be used in relation with sound, light.

In Italian, "viaggio" does NOT make sense "to attend", "to join", "associated with".

12jjwilson61
Dec 30, 2012, 10:15am Top

10> I think you're being too picky. In English, travel can also mean trip, journey, or voyage, and even if there were some minor difference in usage between the languages I don't think that should be a barrier to combining.

13omargosh
Dec 31, 2012, 12:00am Top

11 > Thank you for the detailed explanation.

12 > I guess my follow-up question would be whether it would then be appropriate to combine "travel", "trip", "journey", and "voyage", and I'm guessing that those would end up getting voted down. I think what I fear happening is that "viaggio" will get combined with "travel", "viaje" with "journey", "vojaĝo" with "trip", "viatge" with "voyage", etc., and never shall they meet. I've seen that happen with other tags (e.g. "economia" redirects to "economics" and "economía" goes to "economy", and while those are both probably appropriate translations, "economia" and "economía" should probably have been together in the first place). This is already happening with some plurals: "viagens" is combined with "voyages" and "viaggi" is combined with "travel". Ok, I think I just convinced myself to vote "No" for now instead of "Undecided", haha.

14jjwilson61
Dec 31, 2012, 10:24am Top

Actually, I have a hard time figuring out how a travel book and a trip book would differ and may well vote to combine them. The same goes for journey, but voyage has a connotation of ocean travel.

15omargosh
Jan 2, 2013, 8:13pm Top

  1. When I first saw the combo for London and London (England), my first instinct to vote "No" because I thought of the city in Ontario, but then I looked at all the aliases, and we're already including things like "Londres" and "London (UK)" with the plain old "London" tag, so part of me feels like "what the heck -- we've gone this far", and the other part wants to keep these tag groupings as clean as possible, so I'm "Undecided" for now. (FWIW: I did a tagmash w/ Ontario and there 27 matches out of 1000+ books, which was not a ton, but admittedly higher than tagmashes with other big cities I tried: Paris (7), NYC (14), though these cities have fewer tags than London.)
  2. For the two proposals re: literary classics, I would have thought that the "lit" in Lit - classics and litclassics would have stood for "literature", not "literary", but I noticed that literary classics and Literature Classics are not currently combined. Are those two really different? I would change my current "No" votes to "Yes" if "literary classics" and "Literature Classics" were proposed for combination and successful.

16omargosh
Jan 19, 2013, 8:25pm Top

Am I correct that the Italian word ebraico can mean either Hebrew or Jewish?

17lilithcat
Jan 19, 2013, 11:56pm Top

> 16

According to my Italian-English dictionary, you are correct.

18prosfilaes
Jan 20, 2013, 2:09am Top

The words Hebrew and Jewish don't always have a clear distinction in English, either. The modern usage is fairly distinct, but not always.

19omargosh
Jan 20, 2013, 3:43am Top

I hadn't known that about English, prosfilaes, though I wouldn't use that as a reason to combine Hebrew and Jewish, of course. I am concerned with whether the Italian distinction is less used or nonexistent.

I did some more digging, and the last part of the last paragraph of this section of an Italian Wikipedia article seems to indicate that the terms ebrei and giudei or ebraismo and giudaismo became inexact synonyms, while also noting that other languages make a clearer lexical distinction between the language (Hebrew) and the people/religion (Jewish). This seems to be confirmed by the English Wikipedia article on Hebrews which mentions its use in Italian specifically, amongst other languages.

Anyway, it's probably clear by now that I'm voting no on ebraico.

20eromsted
Jan 20, 2013, 8:20am Top

Does it matter that the only two members using the tag are using it exclusively to mean the Hebrew language?

21omargosh
Jan 20, 2013, 12:36pm Top

20 >
I had noticed that too. I interpret that to mean "there aren't yet many Italian taggers." There will eventually be more. And I fear that future ones will use 'ebraico' to mean 'Jewish'. (Part of my fear, yes, may stem from how unnecessarily difficult I believe tag separation is to achieve currently.)

22andejons
Jun 3, 2013, 3:10pm Top

Not sure if "100" should really be combined with anything. Seems to me it could just as easily be a Dewey sign as the number. It is however, a fairly eclectic tag.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/100

23lilithcat
Jun 3, 2013, 5:08pm Top

It's definitely different from ".100", at least it was when I took math!

24andejons
Sep 18, 2013, 3:42pm Top

I think it most likely that "psychological suspense defective fiction" is a typo and that it should be combined, but I'm posting it here because either way, it's amusing.
http://www.librarything.com/tag/psychological+suspense+defective+fiction

25Collectorator
Oct 7, 2013, 1:52pm Top

"Collectorator has proposed combining the tag childhood of famous americans and cofa."

I made this proposal a long time ago, but only just now figured out how to find my own proposals. (It's a clunky way, so I still want the RSI I made.)

Anyway, I should have posted here at the time to say that cofa is my tag, and I use it exclusively for Childhood of Famous Americans.

The proposal died. The threshold has been met. Is it dead forever, or do I re-propose it, or just fuggedaboudit? It's not earth-shattering, but I thought it would be helpful to clean it up.

26Collectorator
Oct 7, 2013, 1:52pm Top

oops, sorry this may be the wrong thread.

27Nicole_VanK
Edited: Oct 7, 2013, 1:59pm Top

Possibly. But I'm still interested to know how you managed to track your own proposals ;-)

28Collectorator
Oct 7, 2013, 2:03pm Top

On the Home page, the module Tag Combinations. (It's under Helpers if you don't have it on your dashboard.)
Click Your Total and then use ctrl-f to find 'BarkingMatt has proposed'

29Nicole_VanK
Oct 7, 2013, 2:11pm Top

Thanks. Learn something new every day ;-)

30Collectorator
Oct 7, 2013, 2:12pm Top

Now I have another question for you, BarkingMatt.
"BarkingMatt has proposed separating the tag 2451816 Brazilian art and 486536 brazilian art."
How are we supposed to see the difference between these two? Both link to the same place.
???

31Nicole_VanK
Oct 7, 2013, 2:25pm Top

I did? Please look at http://www.librarything.com/tag/Brazilian+art for that one. But, seriously, sometimes proposals go wrong. I even voted against that one myself. Maybe I should have posted in the "please vote against my bonehead suggestion", only I wasn't aware I was the one who apparently suggested this combination. Was I drunk (okay, possible), or did something on LT go wrong (also possible)?

32andejons
Oct 7, 2013, 3:34pm Top

There are a couple of combinations suggested for "Nachslagewerk" with "reference" and variations, and it has already been combined with other similar tags. Not sure if this correct. The Swedish word, and my dictionary implies that it is an exact translation, at least implies a sort of dictionary or lexicon: something you go to look things up in, where they are arranged alphabetically, while it seems that "Reference works" could be somewhat more coherent, like handbooks, or have some other ordering. Perhaps someone more proficient in German can confirm this?

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Nachschlagewerk

33MarthaJeanne
Edited: Oct 7, 2013, 4:48pm Top

I'm not sure where the difference lies between 'reference' and 'reference book', but let's NOT combine the German with a misspelled 'refrence'.

Ok, I see what's going on: it has nothing to do with the German. That is the winning label for the 'reference book' tag. So if misspellings are combined, it would make sense to combine the misspelled tag there. The real question is whether 'reference' and 'reference book' should be combined.

For what it's worth 'Nachschlagen' is to look something up - in a Nachschlagewerk.

The Wikipedia pages in English and German seem to indicate that these are books you only look things up in, and don't read through from cover to cover. But I've been reading encyclopedias as long as I can remember, so I'm not a good person to judge these things.

34Collectorator
Oct 7, 2013, 5:03pm Top

31, no you voted to separate them. What I can't figure out is how we are supposed to be able to distinguish these separations. 2451816 vs. 486536? I can't see where we can see what the two are?

Please excuse all my questioning. I'm not questioning what you do, but how the system works.

35Nicole_VanK
Oct 8, 2013, 12:55am Top

No problem. Yes, I do see I suggested that separation - must have been some slip of the mouse. (I really have voted against the proposal myself though).

I don't think we even actually can separate tags that only have capitalization differences. I'm not 100% sure though.

36kuuderes_shadow
Oct 26, 2014, 10:06am Top

Just posting this to get people to think about it properly, and not just assume this is a simple case of singular/plural:

Isle of Man Railway is the name of one of the three railways on the Isle of Man (the other two being the Manx Electric Railway and the Snaefell Mountain Railway), and it seems every use of the tag at present is referring to this.

This is somewhat complicated by the fact that the Isle of Man Railway is one of the Isle of Man Railways, and the tag "Isle of Man Railway" could in theory be used as a generic term to describe any railway on the Isle of Man. To make matters worse, "Isle of Man Railways" is currently only used on one book, which is also about the Isle of Man Railway.

It's an awkward situation where the tags have different meanings but where anything that is used for one will automatically be viable for the other. As such I have voted undecided.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Isle+of+Man+Railway

37vpfluke
Oct 29, 2014, 11:53pm Top

It is pretty clear that the one book tagged Isle of Man Railways refers to the single version of the tag, as the book is about steam locomotives and the two other IOM railway are electrically operated. That being said, there is only one book so tagged, so the tag itself is a rare one, and not a mispelling. I frequently do not propose single use tags for combinations, as I don't think they add a whole lot of value to book information, unless all versions of the tag are really infrequent. But I did vote for the combo, as the difference between plural and singular seems too subtle to worry about.

It is also interesting that the Isle of Man Railway and the Manx Electric Railway are linked by a fourth "railway", namely The Douglas Horse Tramway, which runs on rails just like the other 3 mentioned.

38kuuderes_shadow
Oct 10, 2015, 9:10am Top

The tag "Belletristik" (https://www.librarything.com/tag/Belletristik) includes Belles-lettres in it at present, which would want combining with "Belles Lettres" (https://www.librarything.com/tag/Belles+Lettres). I'm not familiar with either term, so looked both up.

From the wikipedia pages, it doesn't look like they are the same thing - indeed the pages seem to be specifically stating that they aren't.

On the other hand, as stated I'm not familiar with either term so it could just be my misinterpretation (or a misleading wikipedia article), and I don't want to vote no if that's the case, and I want to say something as if they don't want to be together there will need to be separations made from the existing tag.

Is anyone able to elucidate this?

The wikipedia pages in question: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belletristik and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belles-lettres

39kuuderes_shadow
Nov 29, 2015, 3:34pm Top

Reread can be telling oneself to reread something, or past tense saying that the thing has been reread.

Can rileggere be used for both of these things? I don't know any Italian so I don't know myself.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Rileggere

40omargosh
Mar 17, 2016, 10:45am Top

Finnish speakers: äitiys is currently up for combination with maternity. The latter is mostly on books about pregnancy, giving birth, etc. (not much about the later years of raising kids, etc.). I know in Spanish, maternidad could mean both maternity and motherhood. I wonder if äitiys might be better suited for combination with motherhood (or not quite either)?

41Edward
Mar 21, 2016, 3:26pm Top

I'll leave it to German speakers to decide whether Wissenschaften and science ought to be combined, but I've previously understood that German "Wissenschaften" was broad enough in meaning to include the humanities, which aren't normally called "sciences" in modern English.

42MarthaJeanne
Mar 21, 2016, 4:25pm Top

That's why I voted 'no'.

43vpfluke
Mar 21, 2016, 4:45pm Top

41 & 42
I wasn't sure about this, so still have it as not voted upon.

44MarthaJeanne
Mar 21, 2016, 4:50pm Top

Some of the books in Wissenschaften

https://www.librarything.com/work/11854229 - The Medieval history of the Arabs

https://www.librarything.com/work/7959119/editions-The History of Reading

45omargosh
May 25, 2016, 7:30pm Top

http://www.librarything.com/tag/The+Lord+of+the+Rings+Vol.+1 would combine The Fellowship of the Ring with http://www.librarything.com/tag/Lord+of+the+Rings+%231 The Hobbit

http://www.librarything.com/tag/The+Lord+of+the+Rings+2 combines usage on the book with http://www.librarything.com/tag/Lord+of+the+Rings+Trilogy+%23+2 usage on the movie. Actually, the former contains other tags that specifically mention "book", so I'll probably change my vote to no to be consistent with my other no-votes on the "LOTR #N" with "LOTR book N" combos.

46Edward
Jul 29, 2016, 3:12pm Top

I'm not sure about this, but it looks possible that Feelings - Character is used for books about moral character (including nonfiction), while character feelings is used for fiction that emphasises the feelings of its characters.

47Edward
Aug 14, 2016, 2:41pm Top

My understanding is that French "histoire" can mean "story" as well as "history". However, I'm not sure whether it would be used with that meaning as a single-word tag, so I've voted Undecided.

48vpfluke
Aug 15, 2016, 10:28am Top

I think histoire in French is pretty much history. English sometimes uses story to mean history, as in Van Loon's Story of Mankind. This book has been translated into French and, Spanish and German. See this list of editions: https://www.librarything.com/work/58747/editions . I think the English word history is sometimes not used for popularizations of history, but work ok in other languages. I don't that is enough to not want to combine. But on the other hand, histoire and l'histoire are not really commonly used. By the way, 'short story' in French is frequently translated as nouvelle, but occasionally as histoire courte.

49Edward
Aug 15, 2016, 3:27pm Top

>48 vpfluke: Thanks, that's interesting.

50kuuderes_shadow
Sep 1, 2016, 3:05pm Top

What's Russian for electronica? As электроника would be a direct transliteration of the English.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/%D1%8D%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD...

51Edward
Sep 12, 2016, 3:17am Top

Why is paranormal-vamp proposed for combination with paranormal-vampires and not with Vampire Paranormal (which already includes paranormal-vampire)?

I'd be happy for all three tags to be combined, as I don't mind combining singulars and plurals where there isn't a visible difference in usage. But most voters seem to disagree with me about that, and if "vamp" can only be combined with "vampires" or "vampire" I don't know why it should be the former.

52MarthaJeanne
Sep 12, 2016, 5:04am Top

>51 Edward: I would call that a full 'no'. Vamp has other meanings besides being short for vampire.

53gilroy
Sep 12, 2016, 5:45am Top

>51 Edward: well paranormal-vampire is singular. Shouldn't be with paranormal-vampires anyway.

54AnnieMod
Edited: Sep 12, 2016, 7:23pm Top

>50 kuuderes_shadow: Some words are really that close - in this case because it comes from Greek into both languages. электроника is the correct word in Russian for Electronics (the science) :). Looking at this tag, all of those books are about the science.

Electronika/Elektronica/Электроника is also a Soviet brand name for calculators and similar things (the Latin names are transliteration of the Russian one and not the other way around). None of the tagged books are for it though so I would not think of it...

55Edward
Sep 28, 2016, 3:37pm Top

In English, read in 2015 could mean "[this was] read in 2015" or "[to] read in 2015". Wiktionary defines luettu as the Finnish past passive participle of a verb meaning "to read", which suggests that luettu 2015 could only have the past meaning.

I'm voting Undecided as I can't read Finnish, and it's possible that the English tag is rarely used with the future meaning anyway.

56Edward
Nov 5, 2016, 4:59am Top

According to Wikipedia there is a Saint Bridget of Sweden as well as a Saint Brigit/Brigid of Kildare, Ireland. At least some books tagged St. Bridget seem to be about the Irish saint, but is this tag really equivalent to Saint Brigit?

58Edward
Nov 16, 2016, 12:39am Top

Regarding the proposal to combine metaphysis and metaphysics: the "metaphysis" tag is used only for Doctrine and Argument in Indian Philosophy, so I suspect it is a typo for "metaphysics" in this case. However, the OED defines "metaphysis" as (a) part of a bone, or (b) an obsolete word for transformation or metaphorphosis. I'm hesitant to combine a tag against the dictionary meaning based on a single apparent usage.

59Edward
Dec 21, 2016, 1:32pm Top

Can Théologie évangélique mean "Gospel theology"/"theology of the Biblical Gospels" rather than Evangelical theology? The only book with the French tag is the proceedings of a conference about the Gospel of John, organised by two Catholic universities.

60gilroy
Dec 5, 2017, 1:03pm Top

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Dresden+files+%23+3

I've got a strange thought going here.
There's the TV show, so saying Book with non book is a no to me. There's also discussion of continuing the TV show.
There's discussion of a possible movie, or several movies.

So I want to say no to combining just the number and the book #. (Which also means I'd need to separate these.)

Opinions?

61lilithcat
Dec 5, 2017, 3:19pm Top

>60 gilroy:

I generally vote "no" on those combinations if I know there is a film or TV series based on the books. If I'm not sure, I vote "undecided".

62Edward
Jul 27, 10:38am Top

Regarding Hudson River Valley (N.Y and N.J.) and Hudson River Valley, there is also a Hudson River in the US state of Georgia (Wikipedia). Is the NY-NJ river so much better known that the name would always refer to it unless otherwise specified?

63norabelle414
Jul 27, 11:09am Top

>62 Edward: I would say yes (as someone who briefly lived near that part of Georgia and must have crossed over that river a dozen times without noticing). Even the photo on the Google Maps page for Hudson River, Georgia has the NYC skyline in it.

Regardless of that, the river in Georgia is not in a valley so I think any tag with the word "valley" in it is definitely safe to combine.

64lilithcat
Jul 27, 11:24am Top

>62 Edward:

I wouldn't combine them. The Hudson River Valley Heritage Area is in New York State only.

65prosfilaes
Jul 27, 4:38pm Top

>62 Edward: Let me point out that Hudson River Valley already includes Hudson River Valley (NY and NJ) and a number of other such tags.

66omargosh
Oct 9, 11:14pm Top

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Brossura is up for combination with
https://www.librarything.com/tag/paperback
When Googling for "Brossura", I came upon its Italian Wikipedia page which, in the Other Languages section, links to the hardback page on English Wikipedia. But some other sources seem to translate Brossura as paperback, so I'm not sure. I wonder if perhaps it's a type of binding that doesn't quite overlap with the English divisions, or if we're before some of other kind of taxonomical difference. Or maybe Wikipedia's just wrong?

67lilithcat
Oct 10, 12:02am Top

>66 omargosh:

The Italian Wikipedia article describes "brossura" as a binding with a cover of paper or cardboard, which sounds more like our "paperback".

68prosfilaes
Oct 11, 3:44pm Top

>67 lilithcat: It sounds to me more like neither paperback or hardback. Most hardback books I have have covers of paper-covered cardboard.

69omargosh
Oct 11, 9:32pm Top

I thought searching for images of "brossura" might help, but the top images in Google seem to be focusing on the attachment of the pages near the spine area, not the relative thickness of the cover, so I'm wondering if it means neither paperback nor hardback and is referring to something else.

70lilithcat
Oct 11, 9:57pm Top

>68 prosfilaes:

Of course, you're right. I was thinking of the thin cardboard, not book board.

>69 omargosh:

Just did an image search, too, and I see that the images used are both paperbacks and hardcovers.

71mmseiple
Oct 16, 4:34pm Top

I don't know if this helps, but the cardboard ("cartoncino") in the Italian Wikipedia article refers to thin cardboard or cardstock (it literally means "little cardboard"). The thick cardboard used in a hardcover would be "cartone." "Brossura" in Italian typically refers to a paperback, as opposed to "cartonato" or "rilegato," which would be hardcover. I'm not sure why it's linked to the hardcover Wikipedia article in English. Here is a link with a picture comparison: https://www.webnauta.it/wordpress/le-parti-del-libro/

72lilithcat
Oct 16, 8:08pm Top

>71 mmseiple:

That does help. And that link also describes it as having a "copertina morbida" which would be our "softcover".

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