I'm glad to see an emerging church group. It seems as if there are a lot of people here with books by authors identified as "emergent church" people: Brian D. McLaren, Tony Jones, Dan Kimball, etc....

I have a feeling that the "Christianity" group is entirely too broad. We appear to be living in an age of "Christianities" instead, where the lines between various schools of thought are drawn in such a way as to make peaceful coexistance virtually impossible (whether from one side to another or across all sides).

Anyway, I'm intersted in seeing how this group is used. I'd love to be in touch with people interested in open conversation.

Hi :) Just wanted to introduce myself - my name is Cyndi and I was glad to see this group! I have been enthralled with the idea and practice of what I've heard called a "third day church" for the past few years. As a young woman growing up in the Bible Belt, I have found myself be disappointed time and time again by traditional denominational churches. The churches also found themselves disappointed in me because I'm the type of person who believes that all knowledge is worth having and that spiritual growth can occur outside the walls of a church. I also have a lot of problems with the idea of a person being a "spiritual authority."

Some of my favorite authors are Rob Bell, Don Miller, and more recently, Brian McLaren.

From the growth I have gone through from my own studies and from the rare church that does not limit its attenders, I've found a sort of success in the world of authordom. I am currently part of a 4 person team who puts out the Spiritual Newsletter on Writing.com once weekly (we rotate, not collaborate) and we have a subscription list of over 13,000 members. As you can well imagine, those 13,000 do not believe the same thing at all so I have become quite versed in conversation with people of different religious leanings. :)

I'm excited to be a member and meet each of you!

Good to have you guys along. The authors you guys mentioned are exactly the sort that I had in mind. Other authors who might not necessarily be part of the "emerging church" but who are having an impact on it would include people like Tom Wright, Scot McKnight, Stanley Grenz and perhaps even writers like Dallas Willard and Richard Foster.

manofredearth I agree that the general Christianity group is too broad and we need more subspecialized groups, however I'm not sure I agree with your comment that "peaceful coexistence is virtually impossible." The fact that there is a diversification of "Christianities" is not a new thing - it's been characteristic of the church for at least the last 500 years, if not it's entire history. The difference is that until recent years the boundaries between different groups were much more solid and fixed, with little interaction and cross-Christianity dialogue. It seems to me that we live in an age where a lot of that is changing, and the barriers between different "Christianities" are more fluid. Christians are more open to communication and learning from traditions and theologies other than their own. In my mind this is one of the key aspects of the "emerging church" - drawing and learning from the whole breadth of the church worldwide and throughout history. McLaren's A Generous Or+hodoxy speaks to this issue.

I guess TSK's list of 50 books on his emerging church bookshelf should be a useful reference point for this group.

I'm very new to learning about the EC, but I'm liking some of what I've read, so far.

Mind you, I don't agree with ALL of it... but I won't get into that here. Just stating a fact.

I've loved books by Rob Bell & Erwin McManus... Steve Brown's "A Scandalous Freedom", too!

I've got Donald Miller's "Blue Like Jazz" on hold at the local library ... just waiting for it to come in.

Anyway. Just wanted to say 'hi'! :o)

I just stumbled upon this website, and am so excited because I am a book-a-holic, and thus this just makes me giggle.

I am also incredibly interested in the EC, and in authentic community and thinking about our communities as 'once and future.'

I am in my last year of studies in divinity and will seek a full-time call as a pastor in the spring. I am also quite interested in media literacy and how we can use media AUTHENTICALLY in worship - not to entertain - but as a medium through which we can offer worship and listen for God.

Will be interested in seeing this group 'grow'.

I just recently came here and boy am I glad to be here. Not only am I a book- and reading nut (such as yourselves, I imagine), but also a big fan of the emergent conversation (it's not really a "movement" or anything close to that here in Sweden, yet).

"The fact that there is a diversification of 'Christianities' is not a new thing - it's been characteristic of the church for at least the last 500 years, if not it's entire history."

Maybe I am a bit nitpicky here, but I take that privilege since I am studying church history ;) , but the split between "Catholic" and "Orthodox" faith is way older (1044, to set the "last" split), and between "Coptic" and "Catholic" is even earlier.

Awesome, i'm just discovering groups here.

hope to be church planting soon.

peace,

Lon
http://onelife.voxtropolis.com

MrKris: You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

However, what I personally like about the whole emerg* conversation is that people are pretty careful to not make such sweeping accusations, and are often ready to give sources to their points of argument in a discussion.

I for one would challenge your claim about us (the whole conversation) are preaching salvation by works. Sources? Quotes? Anything?

MrKris: You went to a conversation on a weblog, about a book on salvation, quote John 3:16 and when people confirm that that verse is certainly true, but trying to figure out what it means, in detail, you conclude that they don't believe in salvation?

We might not understand all of Scripture, indeed knowledge might not even be the point, if we don't know how to apply it so that it changes our lives. (1 Cor 13).

Most "emerg*" people I know would attest to the fact that Jesus is the only way, but are willing to question if we need to understand every aspect of scripture. Or if we even can. Or if Jesus might actually still reveal himself outside of scripture (not exclusivly outside Scripture, mind you, but also outside scripture) and thus if someone can be saved without Scripture (or to what degree...), although not without Jesus.

These are all valid questions, if you ask me.

I may agree that the EC connects salvation and works but not in an atypical salvation by works sense. They seem to explore more the Holiness church end of the concept if salvation then what works appear as a result or what work is involved in the act of becoming saved (ie is accepting the call of Christ a work since it inevitably involves some sort of action).
From my point of view it appears as though they want to figure out what it means to become Christian the conversation inevitably leads to what work is required for someone to become saved. Multiple answers appear;

1) Your salvation by my work
2) Your works in becoming saved
3) Christ’s work through me in your salvation
4) Christ’s work through in you

Regardless of the options there is some form of work (spiritual and sociological) occurring around the salvation event. They aren’t saying acting holy and Christian begat salvation they are exploring the complexity of actions, works and Christ that lead up to the moment of salvation by faith through grace.

Much of this is in reaction to the modern church which can be divided into two groups; (apologies for the generalization of the term catholic these statements aren’t meant as factual of the catholic church they are general observations of non-catholic’s )
1) Post-catholic (those folks who were raised catholic and left the church the returned as evangelicals) this group holds onto many undeveloped catholic views and feeding on the stereotypes they were raised under. Two main stereotypes appear; the church as a social organization (see and be seen) and the actions within the social organization as the mediating factor of salvation (the more your seen the more holy you are).
2) Anti-catholic folks who believe in Christ but refuse to do works least they be confused with their perception of Catholics and their perception of post Catholics. IN a move to avoid being labeled catholic or post-catholic they don’t do works at all.

The EC is reacting to both of these movements by exploring the necessity or works in salvation as an journey or way (ordo salutis if you will). They are wanting to find out to which extent works are necessary but not the necessity

I'm not sure anyone here has said salvation is by works in the usual sense of the phrase.

I'm just not seeing it in the posts either here or on EV.

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I came across this article today, and both the post and the following discussion is really well thought out and written, I think.

http://www.dankimball.com/vintage_faith/...

However, the Emergentvillage is not a church. It is a network of a lot of churches, networks, mission organisations and individuals and it is hard to know, at times, if someone there represents anyone but themselves.

Criticism with out direct quotes and citations is not very "well founded" in my humble opinion.

But, MrKris, as a bystander I fail to quite grasp why you join a group on "Emergent church", just to tell everyone there that they are heretics? Are you doing the same to people of other religions, too?

Oh, great. I'm being misquoted (and misunderstood) by someone at Librarything...

All I said was that you have built your view on the whole of EC on (your understanding of) One discussion topic on One webpage. And that you might not be able to say so much about a post there, since a lot of the people there are not representing anyone but themselves.

A lot like Librarything, in that way.

It is a bunch of people. From different backgrounds (and churches). That's it.

My point is that Kimball, while a part of the EC conversation might actually not know any churches with different soteriology. And that, even if you have understood the discussion on Emergent village (i.e. if it is actually saying what you think it does), it might not be that helpful in defining a "EC theology on salvation", since neither you nor I know if the poster of the "errant" message is actually representing the view of any church at all, or just his/her own.

MrKris: Hey - now, wait a minute. YOU are the one making sweeping generalisations here. YOU are not part of the EC conversation, YOU can't point to any churches with different soteriology. All you have done so far is to maybe misinterpret ONE discussion, on ONE webpage, not knowing the background, criteria or context of your percieved opponent.

This post is not targeted to anyone in particular, but I think that we could all benefit from it, regardless of how emerging we think we are :)

At FaithMaps,

http://faithmaps.blogspot.com/2006/12/wh...

Stephen Shields is starting to actually make som RESEARCH (yay!) on the creeds and beliefs of the ECs in the US (now, even though I understand this, I find it a bit saddening, since the conversation is worldwide and originated in the UK, as far as I understand it.)

The project has just started, MrKris, so results (as in a list of creeds) are not there yet. Shield has, though, hinted that most of the churches he already knew of, were using the old (Nicene and Apostolic, mainly) creeds.

However, he is now starting to gather a bigger body of data(as in - hopefully - most of the EC in the US) for his analysis.

so I was so excited to come upon this group, but I see its just another typical emerging board where fundies try to tell us why we are all wrong. one day I'd like to just converse with like minds without having to be ridiculed or forced to defend myself. perhaps I'm naive...

maybe I'll lurk here, see if it gets better...

MrKris seems to have gone very quiet. I think its safe to re-emerge (bad pun intended ;0)

> 33

I am so sorry, and want to apologize, for having contributed to a conflict that served to nothing but silencing the conversation. It was immature and selfish.

I will keep in the background for a while and hope that the conversation re-emerges.

Again - I am so sorry. Forgive me. And please, please Julie Clawson, participate in the conversation. I will certainly do what I can to not put you in a position where you feel that you must defend yourself.

/Mackan - not even very "Emerging" myself (the Conversation with capital C has not really so much started here in Sweden, yet).