Tigana Spoiler Thread: Fantasy February Group Read

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Tigana Spoiler Thread: Fantasy February Group Read

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1ronincats
Jan 31, 2013, 9:29 pm

This thread is to discuss those things which might constitute spoilers for those who have not read that far yet. Let's say no discussion of the ending for the first two weeks at least, to give those of us who want to a chance to check in here without having that previewed.

2drneutron
Feb 1, 2013, 8:35 am

Posted this thread on the group wiki so folks can find it easily.

3ronincats
Feb 3, 2013, 12:58 am

Thanks, Jim.

4dk_phoenix
Feb 8, 2013, 7:03 pm

*Spoilers for Part 2 (up to page 274)*

--
--
--

Just hit page 274 and nearly lost my lunch.

Incest? Really??? Was that really necessary, Kay??? I can't say I see how it adds to the story, to be completely honest. It's one thing to have a strong family bond to motivate the characters. It's quite another to include incest for fifteen-year-olds. Ugh. I know it shows up in other fantasy literature occasionally (*cough*Game of Thrones*cough*), but that doesn't make it any less disturbing. Also, they're so bloody young, somehow it made me feel even more disgusted.

I don't think I'm a prude, but I can't be the only one made positively squeamish by this aspect of the story. *shudder*

5-Cee-
Feb 8, 2013, 8:25 pm

Yeah. I wasn't thrilled with that revelation either. Strange.

I have to say, the sex in this book is all a bit twisted when you think about it. At least as far as I have gotten... pg 334
The dark closet incident, the incest, and the lady in the castle come to mind.

6dk_phoenix
Feb 9, 2013, 12:10 am

>5 -Cee-:: Agreed... and while I'm not quite there yet, I believe there is another scene coming up soon after p. 334 involving bondage (saw it by accident when I picked up the book trying to find my place when the bookmark dropped out... that's certainly something that catches the eye... o_O). There's definitely an undertone of sexual perversion / violence in this story (including the closet incident, as it isn't necessary a "good, consensual sex" situation either, since it's clear afterward that Catriana didn't use the tactic because she wanted to). I'm hoping that it all ties into the overarching theme somehow, but on the other hand, I have a feeling it might not, in the end...

I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts on Kay's choice to portray sexual relationships this way. Close to halfway through, and no healthy relationship shown from anyone (and though it's implied for Rovigo as we see his family interact with each other, the sexual relationship with his wife -- presumably healthy -- does not factor into the story).

I guess my question is, is the twisted portrayal of sex in the book purposeful for the story, or blatant titillation designed to sell more books? (Or maybe we simply won't know for sure until we're a little further on.)

7-Cee-
Feb 9, 2013, 11:24 am

I guess my question is, is the twisted portrayal of sex in the book purposeful for the story, or blatant titillation designed to sell more books? (Or maybe we simply won't know for sure until we're a little further on.)

I wonder too. It kinda drags things down for me - but I will stay somewhat open minded until I finish the book.

8souloftherose
Feb 9, 2013, 12:18 pm

#6 I've just finished the book and can't say that I found the sex scenes tied into an overarching theme. I didn't feel they added anything to the book - I found the writing cringeworthy and there also seemed to be an undercurrent of female characters only being present so that the male characters could have sex with them which I found a bit disturbing. The chapter with Alienor seemed so completely unconnected with anything else in the story that I almost wondered whether I'd accidentally picked up a different book!

9Firinneach
Feb 10, 2013, 2:12 pm

***spoilers up to chapter 12***

Definitely it's all there for a purpose. I don't think you can read too many of GGK's books without knowing that pretty much everything from content to writing style--even maps and character lists when included--are thought out and done for a reason. Whether as readers always agree with the themes and choices is of course another conversation entirely!

dk_phoenix, I would suggest the scene between Beard and Dianora isn't meant to be comfortable for us. Nor, as you and bahzah both note, are many of the sex scenes. Indeed, up until the Ember Nights when the Nightwalkers have there victory, every scene of "love" is somehow conflicted or tainted. After that moment--which is one of healing and release for Baerd and the land--things begin to change.

In some editions of Tigana there is an afterward where GGK touches upon many of the themes of the novel (you can read it here: http://www.brightweavings.com/ggkswords/tiganaafterword.htm ). The whole piece is interesting and worth reading, but he briefly discusses some of the meaning behind the theme of sex and tyranny in the story:

"The novelist Milan Kundera fed my emerging theme of oppression and survival with his musings about the relationship between conquered peoples and an unstable sexuality: what I called 'the insurrections of night.' The underlying ideas, for me, had to do with how people rebel when they can't rebel, how we behave when the world has lost its bearings, how shattered self-respect can ripple through to the most intimate levels of our lives."

Within the story itself, perhaps consider again the conversation that takes place between Devin and Alianor after their encounter, just before he leaves her room. They discuss the hurtful truth of what living under tyranny has done to them, in all aspects of their lives including intimacy. Just as throughout the novel we see how people's culture, memory, morals, choices, and so on have been affected by what the tyrants have done to them, so too has intimacy. It is in this way that these scenes tie into the larger theme and over arcing story of the novel.

Now, this isn't to say you can't still discuss whether this as a theme works for you, you may decide that it's not what you wish to read, and it's always interesting to debate the merits and implications of the theme being explored. My point is just that I've little doubt it *is* intentionally explored and not simply "sex sells!" So much of what we can comfortably read depends at least as much on where we come from as a reader as the writing itself. For instance, I've always had more trouble reading explicit descriptions of violence, and find passages describing deathwheels to be harder to read than anything that happens in a bedroom, and yet I understand this too is a necessary and realistic part of the story and world.

Cheers all.

10-Cee-
Feb 10, 2013, 2:50 pm

Points well taken. Perhaps this is why I didn't care for Blindness by Saramago.

I fervently hope and believe deep down, when it comes to oppression and survival in a world gone wrong, our basic values will support us - not completely deteriorate and ultimately destroy us.

At any rate, I do start to see that after the Spring Ember night battle, victory, and 'celebration', some things are changing. But I haven't finished the book yet... my first GGK book, btw.

Thanks for your comments, Firinneach.

11LizzieD
Feb 10, 2013, 2:53 pm

Well! You're going to make me read this one again. I have to say that the sex scenes are not what I recall when I think about this book. I don't think they exactly went over my head, but I wasn't really seriously affected by them either.

12souloftherose
Edited: Feb 10, 2013, 4:59 pm

#9 Thanks for your comments - they've definitely given me something to think about. I'll definitely be exploring some of the articles about Tigana on the Bright Weavings website too.

13dk_phoenix
Edited: Feb 11, 2013, 2:22 pm

>9 Firinneach:: I really appreciate your comments! It definitely gives a different perspective on things. I'll certainly look into some of the extraneous material written on the book once I've finished, as well. :)

It's an interesting perspective, and not one I necessarily agree with... I think historically, if we look at oppressed societies or countries where things have gone horribly wrong, in many cases this has either made the people stronger or simply turned them apathetic. The first group that comes to mind are the Israelites displaced by Babylon back Ye Ancient Times (I can't recall the date, but I was reading about this earlier this week). Their land and culture was taken away from them, and all but a small remnant became somewhat apathetic about the whole thing (though I suppose that depends on who you're talking to).

But then I think about Egypt and what's happening there, and while they haven't lost their land, things have definitely "gone wrong", and many atrocities are being committed in the streets in broad daylight.

And then I consider the San Domingue in 1802, when Napolean Bonaparte announced he was going to restore slavery to the island and the French fleet sailed to capture the leader of the "free blacks", Toussant (sp?)... and how these displaced-from-their-homeland / once slaves, now freed / Haitian people fought with their lives against tens of thousands of French soldiers and managed to defeat them (though admittedly, yellow fever did have something to do with that...). The "world gone wrong" situation made them stronger.

Hmm...

Well, maybe Kay's approach is just one out of a number of reactions a society can have. It's certainly interesting to think about, and not an easy topic to consider either.

14markon
Feb 13, 2013, 11:41 am

9: Firinneach, thanks for your comments and the link to the afterword. I had not put together the sex between Devin and Catriona, Dianora and Baede, Devin and Alianor in the tower until bazah mentioned them in post 5.

I just read the scene with the lady in the castle last night, and was thinking that given these 3 together and the conversation Devin and Alianor had that Kay was making a link between the grief/anger that the Tiganans are unable to safely express orally/outwardly that it was being expressed sexually.

15ronincats
Feb 14, 2013, 6:02 pm

Thanks so much for the link, Firinneach--I enjoyed reading the afterword a great deal. Like you, I am a great deal more bothered by the death wheels than the sex in the story. I did very much see in Alianor, however, a way of coping with her grief and rebellion that is finding a new balance by the end of the story. And no, I don't think the sex is there to "sell" the story at all.

I've now finished the book and so was able to come and read the comments and the afterword. I thought it was good, powerful story--not comfortable, but not as heart-wrenching as The Lions of Al-Rassan. I have some hope that Brandin and Dianora may meet again in Finavir. On the other hand, I could have done without the riselka in the epilogue...

16ChelleBearss
Feb 18, 2013, 5:52 pm

This is a very interesting discussion about the sex scenes. I wasn't overly bothered by them (Although I believe I missed something in the scene with Devin and Alienor...) but I was curious why the incest was necessary. I was taking it to mean a loss of their innocence but I wonder if there could have been a different way to portray that.

17ronincats
Feb 18, 2013, 7:10 pm

Any thoughts on Scelto's decision at the end?

18Cynara
Feb 19, 2013, 12:35 pm

Arrrrgh. It's such an anti-melodramatic ending; so many things remain hidden instead of revealed!

19dk_phoenix
Feb 19, 2013, 2:02 pm

Well... I just finished it and I have to say, that's one of the more perfect endings I've ever read. It's very true to the events, to the themes, and to what Kay was attempting to convey with the book. I'm very, very glad I stuck through.

I think Scelto's decision was the right one. It's painful for us to read, but sometimes it's more important to let the past lie as the past, to let everyone move forward -- particularly after so many decades of secrecy.

20ChelleBearss
Feb 19, 2013, 2:43 pm

I was surprised at Scelto's decision as he had been so dedicated to Dianora until the end. I was surprised that he would go against what she had said but his decision was better for Alessan as he had already lost the Prince once and it would have been painful to lose him again after such an important victory.

21inge87
Feb 19, 2013, 5:06 pm

I also feel Scelto's decision was correct, since it was desire for revenge that wiped Tigana off the map in the first place. Nothing good would have come from revealing the truth, only more anger.

22-Cee-
Feb 19, 2013, 5:39 pm

"Nothing good would have come from revealing the truth, only more anger."

I totally agree. I thought the ending was everything it could have been. Thoughfully presented.

23ronincats
Feb 19, 2013, 5:44 pm

I liked Scelto's decision as well. And I felt the ending with Dianora and Brandin was inevitable. Nobody cared about what's his face, the Barbadoran, but Brandin was actually a great man, and that's what destroyed him.

But in the epilogue, as I mentioned above, I really could have done without the three men seeing the riselka--one's path forks, one is blessed, one meets death. That set up that clangy resonance that shook up what otherwise would have been a perfect ending for me.

24Cynara
Feb 19, 2013, 7:40 pm

Agreed.