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Date-read improvements, part 1

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1timspalding
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 1:59am Top

The first date-read improvements are now live and "populated." They include:

1. You can change your default date format. YYYY-MM-DD is still the default, at least for now. But you can change it to M/D/YYYY or even "January 1, 2012." Change it on a book's edit page or from "Edit your profile > Account Settings."

2. You can now be "imprecise" in your dating—providing the year and month (2012-12) or just the year (2012).

3. You can enter non-dates, like "Banuary 2012" or "Sometime in college" and it will "stick," rather than vanishing as a non-date. (It will, however, show up red.)

4. Editing dates from the catalog is altered—it's now done in a lightbox, where you can edit more than one date.

5. Dates before 1970 stick.

6. There is a new catalog field available, called "Reading dates." It's turned into two columns and sorts a little better—by the latest of EITHER date-read or date-started. It's really the best, since sorting by one or the other is odd.

7. Various important back-end changes that utterly change how and where the data is stored, and will be important as we start tracking "currently reading," but which aren't visible now.

The changes are live. (The old system is also in place, in case we've made any mistakes.) I, however, will be out most of the evening (in Boston, seeing Peter Pan with my son), so I won't be able to fix bugs until late tonight or tomorrow.

Known issues:

1. Only date-read is really upgraded. We have an upgrade for date-acquired, but it's not live.

2. It would be nice if you could change your format from the pop-up in the catalog, but the system doesn't know how to change all the boxes on the page, so that probably won't come soon.

2jjmcgaffey
Apr 24, 2013, 1:57am Top

Yay! Multiple dates from the catalog!

Lots of lovely things.

Hmmm. I sometimes use a sort by primary started and secondary stopped reversed to get the books I haven't finished yet up to the top. I'll have to test out this reading dates thing.

3timspalding
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 2:04am Top

Members will notice that the date format now applies on both the catalog and the edit page. I had originally planned to have two formats—one on each. But I think that's fiddly, especially as double-clicking in the catalog gives you a window on the edit page. You don't want dates changing formats just because you click to edit them.

My feelings on ISO-whatever-whatever the "universal" (and near-universally unfamiliar) format YYYY-MM-DD are well known. But I'm tired of fighting this one. The alternatives are all either specific to one region or another or involve month names that LibraryThing can't necessarily translate and process when given as "input."

At least you can change the format now.

4mart1n
Apr 24, 2013, 2:15am Top

Re sorting of the Reading dates column. As it stands I'm somewhat disinclined to use this column rather than the two Started/Stopped columns because of the way it sorts. As I rule, I've always shown my catalogue sorted by started date, so that the book I'm currently reading is at the top. If I sort by Reading dates, then at the moment it shows the book I most recently finished at the top, and the current one second. I guess this is because the started date of the most recent book is the same as the finished date of the previous one (as will generally be the case). So, these being equal, the secondary sort criterion kicks in, in practice giving me a 50/50 chance of the "right" book being at the top.

Would it be possible to amend this behaviour to bring the book with no finish date to the top when two dates are the same?

5Scorbet
Apr 24, 2013, 2:15am Top

>3 timspalding:

The "Book Details" page is still showing YYYY-MM-DD until you click to edit, even with DD-MM-YYYY set.

(Not complaining, just wanting to check if this current planned status, or whether this should also have changed.)

6mart1n
Apr 24, 2013, 2:16am Top

P.S. But in general, yay! :-)

7ABVR
Apr 24, 2013, 2:20am Top

Very cool! So glad to have fuzzy reading dates . . . and thus the opportunity to go back and add them to books I read in college and grad school (or for subsequent research), where I know the year (and can guesstimate the month), but only that. :-)

Really looking forward to playing with this . . . thanks, Tim!!

8jjmcgaffey
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 2:31am Top

Unfamiliar but logical beats familiar but potentially incorrect, to me. But yeah, that's been pretty well hashed over.

I very much like the lightbox to add dates, letting me add more than one (set) per book. Hope it doesn't cause problems for those using mobile devices to access LT.

My funny sort doesn't work - but I now can't remember how it used to work, so I don't know if anything has changed. Whatever. If I've lost it, I've gotten much better stuff. And I like the Reading Dates column, too - saves me a column.

Um. Bug? I tried out the lightbox by adding a new reading date to my most recent book, Across the Great Barrier. I entered "today" into the Started box in the lightbox, and saved. The catalog continued to show the previous date (three days ago, the 20th). I went back in and put "today" in the Stopped box too, and saved. No change. I hit F5 to refresh - and now it shows 4/20 in both boxes, AND it's sorting below the previous book, which was started on the 19th and finished on the 20th. When I open the lightbox, it shows the correct date - 4/23 - in both boxes, and it's correctly above the 4/20, but it's not sorting or displaying right. I suppose it could be a matter of not being fully set up yet, but...

FF20.0.1, Win7 Pro

ETA
The Muse error* is still there, too, and I've found at least one more. I _think_ that it's a matter of the dates having gotten mixed up - I think I had (at least) two reads on On Basilisk Station, which is the other error I've found. Most of the books look fine, but there are a few problems.

*Also, said Started/Stopped have an error - when I go to the Edit page for my latest read book (well, the latest one that's populated), I get four sets of reading dates. The first two (oldest two) are fine; the last two are (reading from the bottom):
2010-12-05 2013-04-14
2013-04-13 2010-12-05 (with an alert that started is after stopped).

Looks like a random December 5th sneaked in there...

The book is
http://www.librarything.com/work/2806353/book/60229519

OK, not a general error - my other books are fine, including others with multiple dates and a more-than-a-single-day last read. Only Muse showing the problem.

9timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 2:28am Top

The "Book Details" page is still showing YYYY-MM-DD until you click to edit, even with DD-MM-YYYY set.

Yeah. Needs updating.

10prosfilaes
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 2:56am Top

It looks like I'm missing dates read for three books in the Read 2013 collection. It's possible that I didn't put in dates read for Purity in Death, Cold Days: A Novel of the Dresden Files, or A Horrible Experience of Unbearable Length: More Movies That Suck, but I'd be surprised, especially with all three.

11timspalding
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 3:00am Top

Here and elsewhere, give links to your exact book, not the work. It can be a real pain tracking the book down.

I tracked those three down however (64487739, 94146779, 95312912). None of them have ever had date-read data on them. The table in question literally never deletes--it sets a delete-flag. They're never had dates.

12jmnlman
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 3:05am Top

8: The lightbox won't work on for example an iPad. Then again you can't change any of the fields from the Your Books to start with from an iPad so it's pretty much a wash.

13timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 3:20am Top

Oh, and fields moved around a bit, and acquired gray section bars.

See http://www.librarything.com/topic/153409 for one member's objection.

14jjmcgaffey
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 4:11am Top

On Basilisk Station is http://www.librarything.com/work/7703/book/13265025. I found half a dozen more, if you want them - if I scan through my library sorted by Reading Dates, they're the ones with the ridiculously early start dates. 2008-2013, 2010-2012, that sort of thing.

ETA
Not hard to fix, either, if it's not something that can/will be fixed programmatically. But I'm leaving them for now, so you can see them.

15_Zoe_
Apr 24, 2013, 6:55am Top

So, we now have a lightbox with all this extra space when editing dates.

It would be really nice if it could include CR options as well.

16_Zoe_
Apr 24, 2013, 7:04am Top

Also, is there any way to have books with multiple reading dates actually appear multiple times in the catalogue? That wouldn't really make sense as a sort, but it's the behaviour that I'd like to see. Currently I just enter another copy of a book when I reread it, which isn't really ideal.

17_Zoe_
Apr 24, 2013, 7:08am Top

And did you end up including the time so that books read on the same day could sort in the correct order? I'm not currently seeing that behaviour.

18_Zoe_
Apr 24, 2013, 7:53am Top

And would it be possible to have the cursor already in the appropriate box (started/finished) if we get there by double clicking in that catalogue field? Currently we have to do more clicking and scrolling than we used to. I want to be able to double click the box, type, and press enter.

19andejons
Apr 24, 2013, 10:03am Top

If we are on the subject of ponies, I'd like to be able to power-edit dates, in a way that only adds new dates, so I can record at least the year in which I read my older books. Though this might mostly be of use now for adding data for old entries, and not so much in the future.

20AnnaClaire
Apr 24, 2013, 10:54am Top

At least for acquisition dates, dates entered as a year display as January first of that year. This should be fixed: effectively, you're using too many sigfigs.

21jbd1
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 11:12am Top

>20 AnnaClaire: - Right, acquisition dates so far are not affected by the changed date structure (so they don't handle imprecise dates yet). (ETA: See Tim's note under "Known issues" in #1)

22brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 11:21am Top

#21 by jbd1> Entry date even further out on the agenda?

I wish Publication Date (I mean the one in your book data, not ORIGINAL Publication Date) was also one of these newfangled date types. I'm not sure why it couldn't be, since the new ones can handle string-y entry, fuzzy entry, etc. Of course, I guess the problem is that you'd have to convert the existing data into a date, and people could be entering it in either MM/DD/YYYY or DD/MM/YYYY and for some of the data you'd never know. Megafrown.

23brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 11:24am Top

Oh, and can this be a good time for you to name the end reading dates consistently? It's "date finished" in the catalog Edit Styles page, "Stopped" in the catalog fields and "Date finished" and "Finished" in the Book Details and Edit Book screens.

I don't give a crap what it is and I understand you might want to leave off the "Date" part where space is tight. But it bugs me that it's "stopped" one place and "finished" another.

24saltmanz
Apr 24, 2013, 11:25am Top

Neat. BUT. Many books of mine that had multiple reading dates now have them mixed up so that the start and end dates no longer align properly. This is a pretty big error!

Examples:
http://www.librarything.com/work/5442798/book/40692342
http://www.librarything.com/work/4857111/book/35123955
http://www.librarything.com/work/57310/book/37728117
http://www.librarything.com/work/2410323/book/45526971
http://www.librarything.com/work/57479/book/68199366

25.Monkey.
Apr 24, 2013, 11:26am Top

>23 brightcopy: YES. Plus, "stopped" makes it sound like "gave up" rather than "completed," so please go with "finished" for both consistency and just general sense-making.

26saltmanz
Apr 24, 2013, 11:28am Top

Follow-up to @24: In addition to that error, this book doesn't display the most recent "top row" of dates in the catalog, but the bottom row instead!

http://www.librarything.com/work/31285/book/44620317

27jbd1
Apr 24, 2013, 11:32am Top

>23 brightcopy: - Yes, that is on the list. We've been back and forth on "stopped" vs. "finished" several times (because maybe you didn't "finish" it, &c. It's one of those things). But agreed, they all need to say the same thing.

28brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 11:36am Top

#25 by @PolymathicMonkey> Yes, but Tim doesn't like the more "read-centric" approach, and from his point of view he has a point. You don't "finish" a lot of nonfiction books, you just stop reading them.

We had this huge back and forth discussion at least once and I don't think there's any new arguments on each side. So at this point, I'm fine with Tim picking whichever will get him to make them consistent across both places.

29brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 11:48am Top

I'm a little puzzled that multiple reading dates down show up as multiple lines in the reading dates/started/stopped fields. There's room, and for at least the last three and now that we don't inline-edit them that problem isn't there.

Also, I wish there was a delete button for each row of dates in the edit popup.

I tried to look at saltzmanz's problem listed above, but I can't see anything but his most recent reading dates. They don't appear to show up on the Book Details page, either. Do we need a read-only version of the popup if you're looking at someone else's catalog and double-click on the field?

30.Monkey.
Apr 24, 2013, 11:50am Top

It's not going to make me revolt against the site or anything, but I despise the "stopped" title. It makes me feel like I simply quit reading things, and I don't do that ever, it's the absolute wrong word! lol. If I didn't read a whole book, I wouldn't put an end date.

31brightcopy
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 12:02pm Top

#30 by @PolymathicMonkey> Yeah, well, everyone despises something on the site. The other side feel pretty strongly that your preferred words are stoopid and smelly as well. :D

Please feel free to rehash the debate. A good thread to post to might be:
http://www.librarything.com/topic/61919#1190843

Wherein conceptDawg delineates why every possibility is wrong to someone.

32saltmanz
Apr 24, 2013, 12:02pm Top

29: Yeah, I figured only the developers would be able to see the actual dates, though if you look close enough, you can spot books in my catalog that were finished 2 years before they were started. Here's a screenshot of the problem.

(The yellow warning sign helpfully says that "Started is before ended.")

33brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 12:04pm Top

#32 by saltmanz> Have you ever considered that maybe you've accidentally warped the spacetime continuum, Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa?

34saltmanz
Apr 24, 2013, 12:09pm Top

33: I hadn't seriously considered it until Future!me (who looks suspiciously like Bruce Willis) showed up and gave me a cryptic warning. Now I'm not so sure.

35jjwilson61
Apr 24, 2013, 12:17pm Top

16> Also, is there any way to have books with multiple reading dates actually appear multiple times in the catalogue?

But that's not really what a catalog is. If you want a history of your reading perhaps a new reading history feature would be better.

19> If we are on the subject of ponies...

It's a pet peeve of mine when people refer to other people's request as ponies. It's so condescending. In any case, getting the UI easy to use isn't a pony.

30> It's not going to make me revolt against the site or anything, but I despise the "stopped" title. It makes me feel like I simply quit reading things, and I don't do that ever, it's the absolute wrong word! lol. If I didn't read a whole book, I wouldn't put an end date.

Yeah, but some people do stop reading and would like to record that, so Finished is inaccurate for them. Whaddayagonnado?

36brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 12:19pm Top

#35 by jjwilson61> It's a pet peeve of mine when people take messages in Talk too seriously. Guess we can't all win. ;)

37saltmanz
Apr 24, 2013, 12:41pm Top

Found another bug. It appears that if you have a non-date text string in one of your reading date fields, you can't use the new reading dates lightbox to change it to a different text string.

Example: I have a couple of years where all I tracked was the year I finished a book, so for example, the first book I finished in 2004, I could have started in 2004 or 2003; I don't know. So I marked the start date with a "2004?" which showed up red, great. After a couple more of those, I decided I liked the format "2003/2004" better, and went to change it from within my catalog. Now, I had set my catalog up so I could see both the "Started", "Stopped", and the new "Reading Dates" fields. When I changed the start date from "2004?" to "2003/2004", my Started date changed to "2003/2004" on screen, but the Reading Dates didn't. When I double-clicked again to edit, it was back to "2004?".

I can change red text to a date and then to another text string, but I can't change the text string if it's currently red.

38timspalding
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 1:29pm Top

Sorry I was gone. We had an (unrelated) database problem last night and it kept me up until amost 5am.

And would it be possible to have the cursor already in the appropriate box (started/finished) if we get there by double clicking in that catalogue field? Currently we have to do more clicking and scrolling than we used to. I want to be able to double click the box, type, and press enter.

Yes. I forgot to do this. It's there now. Should be much quicker.

If we are on the subject of ponies, I'd like to be able to power-edit dates, in a way that only adds new dates, so I can record at least the year in which I read my older books. Though this might mostly be of use now for adding data for old entries, and not so much in the future.

This is a good pony, but you're not getting it soon. The way it now automatically focuses on the first row should make it faster anyway.

Also, is there any way to have books with multiple reading dates actually appear multiple times in the catalogue

No. I think that's unlikely.

And did you end up including the time so that books read on the same day could sort in the correct order? I'm not currently seeing that behaviour.

If you add the time, it will remember it. But I'm no sure what times parse correctly. How did you enter it?

I wish Publication Date (I mean the one in your book data, not ORIGINAL Publication Date) was also one of these newfangled date types.

We'll look at it. We do have month-day for some books.

39_Zoe_
Apr 24, 2013, 1:52pm Top

And would it be possible to have the cursor already in the appropriate box (started/finished) if we get there by double clicking in that catalogue field? Currently we have to do more clicking and scrolling than we used to. I want to be able to double click the box, type, and press enter.

Yes. I forgot to do this. It's there now. Should be much quicker.


I'm still not seeing this, in Chrome.

And did you end up including the time so that books read on the same day could sort in the correct order? I'm not currently seeing that behaviour.

If you add the time, it will remember it. But I'm no sure what times parse correctly. How did you enter it?


Hmm. Is there any way to do it automatically, so that it just takes the current time? It's not at all obvious how to enter a time in the format "Month D, YYYY". "Month D, YYYY, x:xx" doesn't do it. I'm not even sure what else I should try.

40brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 2:14pm Top

29, 30> I think maybe the cursor code hasn't got pushed yet, because it's not doing it on FF. Maybe we're misunderstanding each other. What exactly did you add?

41norabelle414
Apr 24, 2013, 2:22pm Top

Would it be much trouble to get "entry date" to show in our preferred format?

42timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 2:23pm Top

Stopped, Finished, etc.

I've changed "Stopped" on the catalog to "Finished." That brings them all in line.

We're going to be addressing the question of "finished" and "stopped" within the new status updates too. But this is the best solution for this feature.

It's a pet peeve of mine when people take messages in Talk too seriously.

I can change red text to a date and then to another text string, but I can't change the text string if it's currently red.

Nice catch. Fixed.

43timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 2:29pm Top

I think maybe the cursor code hasn't got pushed yet, because it's not doing it on FF. Maybe we're misunderstanding each other. What exactly did you add?

It does a select() on the text box. Browsers mostly select all the text in the box for that. FF seems to just put the cursor there.

44brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 2:41pm Top

#43 by timspalding> Sorry, but I meant more of a lower-level user point of view. Something like, "If you double click on a reading date in Your Books, the popup appears and you can immediately start typing in the first box without any other clicks."

If that's the case, it's not happening for me in FF20 on Win8. Sound like not for Zoe in Chrome, either.

45timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 2:44pm Top

Would it be much trouble to get "entry date" to show in our preferred format?

Done.

46timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 2:45pm Top

If that's the case, it's not happening for me in FF20 on Win8. Sound like not for Zoe in Chrome, either.

Hmmmm. Must be some sort of elements-not-there problem. Will look at.

47norabelle414
Apr 24, 2013, 2:47pm Top

>45 timspalding: Yay! Thanks.

48timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 2:49pm Top

If that's the case, it's not happening for me in FF20 on Win8. Sound like not for Zoe in Chrome, either.

No. It was a caching issue. Try it now?

49brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 2:50pm Top

#48 by timspalding> Works! Thanks.

50timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 2:51pm Top

On the time-question, what should be the default? If someone adds a date, add the current time to it? That way it would be in entry order.

While it will interpret times, I'm very wary of making time precision a feature of this. It adds a lot of extra stuff, and I'm not convinced it has general appeal.

51timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 2:54pm Top

16> Also, is there any way to have books with multiple reading dates actually appear multiple times in the catalogue?

We can have it show multiple dates within the box. But it gets ugly quickly, since line 2 in one cell isn't necessarily going to line up with line 2 in other cell, etc.

52lilithcat
Apr 24, 2013, 3:01pm Top

> 50

If someone adds a date, add the current time to it? That way it would be in entry order.

I don't like the idea of automatically entering the time. First, not everyone knows or cares what time they finished (or stopped) reading a book. Second, how many people will actually add the date at the very moment when they finish (or stop) reading?

53brightcopy
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 3:22pm Top

#50 by timspalding> From what I remember before, I think the main thrust behind time was just so one book would sort before the other. Apart from a few folks, I think most didn't really care about the actual time. So if you want to accomplish that, you could just record the CURRENT time as the time part, no matter what the date of entry is.

So if I go and pick two of my books and enter finish dates of "2013-04-20" on each of them consecutively, the first one will get something like "2013-04-20 13:59" (the date being the one entered, the time being the current time). Then I enter the second one, which takes a few minutes, so it has "2013-04-20 14:05".

It'd get a bit tricky when you crossed midnight, of course. Maybe you should just always use the LOCAL current time part on the machine of the person doing the entry.

I can see how this is annoying to think about coding, but if you think about the end result I believe it will be what MOST people would want. They can't have actual control over the time part, but they can have control over the sorting by deciding which order to enter the finished dates on.

ETA: Even using local time, it gets tricky after midnight. Entering "2012-04-20" at local time 11:59 PM would give you "2012-04-20 23:59". Then entering the next one at a few minutes later at 12:02AM would give you "2012-04-20 00:02". This second book would then sort FIRST, which is not desired. I think this is a shortcoming people will just have to live with. At least if you use local time, it's a hard and fast rule to say "it resets at midnight YOUR time". We don't have to do any timezone arithmetic to figure it out. And yes, daylight savings time going backward is also something the user will have to keep in mind. But I think the users who care about this sort of thing will also be the ones who can look up the rules and be content to keep them in mind.

54brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 3:11pm Top

#51 by timspalding> We can have it show multiple dates within the box. But it gets ugly quickly, since line 2 in one cell isn't necessarily going to line up with line 2 in other cell, etc.

I'm not sure I get the not lining up part. A missing value would be a lt;br>, which would be the same height as a filled in line. So:



At least, that's how you could do it in the Reading Dates field. You could do the same thing in started/finished, but the code would have to know to look for at the other field when doing it, and I could see how that might be hard if it's structured a certain way.

I think it'd be helpful even if it only applied to Reading Dates. It is DateS after all. Showing only the LAST read dates is a bit confusing for those who have multiple dates, I'd think.

55_Zoe_
Apr 24, 2013, 3:16pm Top

Yup, cursor thing is working now, thanks!

With time, what brightcopy said. The users don't need to see or think about the time element at all; the goal is just for the books to sort in the correct order.

56norabelle414
Apr 24, 2013, 3:28pm Top

>53 brightcopy:, 55 So, it doesn't even really need to be the time, right? It could just be any means of making them sort in the same order that the dates were entered.

57timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 3:29pm Top

>saltmanz

Thanks. I figured out your problem. I'm working on a fix. It's somewhat involved.

Can I ask you not to change your dates for a little while? Thanks.

58brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 3:30pm Top

#56 by norabelle414> Yes. But time is probably the best way of doing it, because these are most easily programmed as "atomic" operations. In other words, the setting of a date finished doesn't have to go casting about looking at what other books you've set the date on today, because that overhead is both hard to program and can increase wait and resources used. I can't think of another way to do it where each date setting operation is an island unto itself.

59brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 3:33pm Top

I suppose an alternative would be to record the full date and time the date finished (and started, you have to keep that one in mind to) was changed. And then sort on that extra field behind the scenes as well as the other one. But that one gets to be a real pain to program and requires some other architectural changes behind the scenes (like adding fields to the database) that are significant. It'd be nice to piggy back off what's there with some minimal code changes.

60timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 4:09pm Top

>saltmanz

Nice catch. The problem was a subtle one, affecting 2991 books. I've solved it. If any of those books INTENTIONALLY had end before start, these dates now occupy two lines, not one.

Fixed.

61Pears
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 5:00pm Top

Any particular reason why yyyy-mm-dd (i.e., 1-9 get zeros in front) while using the reverse format looks like this: d-mm-yyyy?

62brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 5:26pm Top

#61 by Pears> Well, a potential reason is yyyy-mm-dd is sortable as long as you add zeros, so people who use that type of format typically want the zeros. But people looking for a d(d)-mm-yyyy format don't really care about having a sortable string so zeros aren't necessary.

No idea why Tim chose it to be that way, though. :D

63jjmcgaffey
Apr 24, 2013, 5:30pm Top

OK - two weird ones, which may be related...or not.
1 - I have two books, one of which I started on 4/19 and finished on 4/20, the other of which I started and finished on 4/20. They are currently sorting...ok, not any more, because of the next bug. But they _were_ sorting with the 4/19 one at the top and 4/20 one after it. Maybe just sorting on the stopped date of 4/20...but this is why the time thing would come in handy (because looking at both sets of dates would be more complicated, as brightcopy says in 58).

2 - I went into the 4/19 one to see what it actually had. It had two sets of dates, the 4/19-4/20/2013 pair, and a pair sometime in 2010. Without changing anything, I clicked Save - and what displayed in the catalog was the 2010 pair. When I clicked on Reading dates to resort it - up, then down - the 4/19 book went away entirely - I guess it's now sorting with the 2010s (yes, it is). Doubleclick on Reading dates still shows both pairs. The book is
http://www.librarything.com/work/7542501/book/97131871 , Thirteenth Child.

and another example of 2 - I had several books with the mixed dates error (saltmanz's bug); I went into one to see what it was doing. Before I clicked, it was correctly displaying the latest pair of dates, in 2013. I opened it up and there were some half-blank lines -
2013 2013
2012
2010 2012
         2010
2010 2010 (these are earlier than the other 2010 dates, in May).

I moved the dates around so that they were in proper order (moved two stopped dates up one line, leaving one line blank). Clicked Save - and the May 2010 dates are what's showing in the catalog now. It's correct when I double-click on Reading Dates, though. This book is
http://www.librarything.com/work/2806353/book/60229519 , Muse.

Maybe the line picker has trouble with blank lines? But that wouldn't explain Thirteenth Child.

Here's another that had the mixed dates error - http://www.librarything.com/work/34930/book/13272633 , The Short Victorious War. It now has the correct newest dates on one line and the older pair on two lines - which is fine, I can fix that. But I'm not going to until the sorting thing is cleared up.

64saltmanz
Apr 24, 2013, 5:44pm Top

@60: Perfect, thanks!

65timspalding
Edited: Apr 24, 2013, 8:14pm Top

You can now change your date settings from the catalog pop up. Click the cog to get the settings area:

66brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 9:58pm Top

Nice!

How about a delete button for each line of dates?

67timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 10:00pm Top

No.

68brightcopy
Apr 24, 2013, 10:37pm Top

Damn your eyes.

69timspalding
Apr 24, 2013, 11:24pm Top

Seriously—tab, delete, tab, delete. And how often do you do this?!

70brightcopy
Apr 25, 2013, 12:20am Top

I remapped my tab button to a shortcut that google image searches for your name.

What??

71timspalding
Apr 25, 2013, 12:24am Top

Hmmmm.

Okay, "date acquired" is now in the system too. Fuzzy dates, bad dates, personalized date formats, etc. etc.

It all sounds so simple. Blech.

72Pears
Apr 25, 2013, 7:14am Top

>62 brightcopy:, well, I care (even if it makes me one of the great unwashed), and since the sorting works just fine no matter the format, and the missing zero looks weird .. Please, Tim, could the d-mm-yyyy format be dd-mm-yyyy .. and yes, even if it is a pony?

73norabelle414
Edited: Apr 25, 2013, 8:23am Top

I have the world's tiniest problem:

My date preference is set to "25 Dec 2013", but underneath my date fields the gray example text says "D Month YYYY" when it should say "D Mmm YYYY"

74lorax
Apr 25, 2013, 9:04am Top

70>

(I'm sure you were thinking of this, but for others:)

http://xkcd.com/1172/

75saltmanz
Apr 25, 2013, 10:59am Top

71: Excellent! Small bug, though: when you try to edit the date while in catalog view, the current date disappears. In other words, a double-click to edit gets you a blank edit box, even if there's already a date there. (If you hit cancel, it comes back, no problem.)

76mysterymax
Apr 25, 2013, 11:01am Top

Great idea, but when I choose a date format it appeared on the edit book page properly but was a different format on the book details page.

77timspalding
Apr 25, 2013, 11:07am Top

>75 saltmanz:

It looks like it only does this on re-edits. That is, you can edit in the catalog once, not twice. Is that what you're seeing?

78saltmanz
Apr 25, 2013, 11:20am Top

@77: The edits and re-edits "take", it's just that the current value disappears while you're editing—it's more an annoyance than anything.

79timspalding
Apr 25, 2013, 11:26am Top

Even the first time? Not for me.

80shadrach_anki
Apr 25, 2013, 11:38am Top

I am not sure if this is a bug or simply a caching issue, but I have at least one book record where the reading dates that show in catalogue view are not the most current dates on the book. When I go to edit it the most recent dates are listed, but it's still showing the 2012 dates rather than the most recent 2013 ones when I view my catalogue.

81saltmanz
Edited: Apr 25, 2013, 11:39am Top

@79: Still not entirely sure what you mean.

Okay, so I pull up a book I've never owned in my catalog: the Acquired Date is blank, naturally. I double-click it, and get a blank edit box. I type in "2013" and hit enter. Now my catalog displays "2013". Okay. Double-click again. Once again, the edit box comes up blank. If I hit cancel, my catalog still shows "2013"; if I type nothing and hit save, the field is blanked out in my catalog; if I type "2013-01" and hit save, "2013-01" shows in the catalog.

Let's say I've got a "2013-04-25" that I want to change to "2013-04-24". Ideally, I'd double-click the existing value, and change the last digit. With this bug, I have to retype the entire date.

82timspalding
Apr 25, 2013, 11:53am Top

>80 shadrach_anki:

Give me an example? And then don't touch it. :)

>81 saltmanz:

Okay, so I pull up a book I've never owned in my catalog: the Acquired Date is blank, naturally. I double-click it, and get a blank edit box. I type in "2013" and hit enter. Now my catalog displays "2013". Okay. Double-click again. Once again, the edit box comes up blank. If I hit cancel, my catalog still shows "2013"; if I type nothing and hit save, the field is blanked out in my catalog; if I type "2013-01" and hit save, "2013-01" shows in the catalog.

Right. Try adding a date, then refreshing the page then editing.

83saltmanz
Apr 25, 2013, 12:02pm Top

82: Ah, I gotcha. Yeah, it works that way. So a second edit without refreshing gets the bug.

84shadrach_anki
Apr 25, 2013, 12:02pm Top

>82 timspalding:

The book that I noticed it on was this one: http://www.librarything.com/work/11395267/book/97469805
I first read it in 2012, and that date shows, but I reread it two days ago, added the date of the reread, and the old date is still showing.

85LolaWalser
Apr 25, 2013, 12:16pm Top

I just discovered this change... There's a lag between saving the date and the date appearing in the catalogue (it used to be instantaneous). I had to reload the page (or navigate away from the page and return) before I could see the date. Is this normal, or a problem on my side?

And, question--must we close the lightbox ourselves? I'd prefer it if it went away of itself after I hit enter.

86keristars
Apr 25, 2013, 12:16pm Top

82> Any way to fix that without refreshing the page? It can take a while for my catalogue to load on refresh, even when I've reduced the number of rows.

87timspalding
Apr 25, 2013, 12:26pm Top

I just discovered this change... There's a lag between saving the date and the date appearing in the catalogue (it used to be instantaneous). I had to reload the page (or navigate away from the page and return) before I could see the date. Is this normal, or a problem on my side?

It needs to go the server process the input and return it in the right date format. Before it just took what you typed and send it to the server silently.

Any way to fix that without refreshing the page? It can take a while for my catalogue to load on refresh, even when I've reduced the number of rows.

Yeah, it's just a pain :)

88norabelle414
Apr 25, 2013, 12:41pm Top

>73 norabelle414: Also, the gray example text for "date acquired" doesn't change to match the preferred format at all.

89keristars
Edited: Apr 25, 2013, 1:44pm Top

87> Well, darn. I don't expect that I'll have that problem much, but I think I might miss the immediacy of the old ways of editing that field until I get used to it. I've only done it once with the new way, and it felt...hmm...lost? like a big reason of my use of the catalogue view rather than going to the edit book page was gone.

90LolaWalser
Apr 25, 2013, 1:48pm Top

#89

I hate to seem unappreciative of the added goodies, but I must say I feel the same! It will take some getting used to.

91_Zoe_
Apr 25, 2013, 1:49pm Top

Yeah, I'd also really like to see it immediately.

92paradoxosalpha
Edited: Apr 25, 2013, 6:26pm Top

In another thread anticipating these changes, Tim wrote that the "Date Started" and "Date Finished" would be filled from data that had tracked movement into and out of the "Currently Reading" collection. Is that still coming, or has it supposedly happened already? I see none of those dates in my catalog.

93norabelle414
Apr 25, 2013, 1:53pm Top

>92 paradoxosalpha: I believe that is "part 2"

94saltmanz
Apr 25, 2013, 2:03pm Top

Re lag between saving the date and it appearing onscreen: It's instantaneous for me. Does it have to do with location or connection speed or something?

95timspalding
Apr 25, 2013, 5:17pm Top

>91 _Zoe_:

Wait, which date-entry are we talking about? Both date-read/finished and date acquired should be quite fast.

96bw42
Apr 25, 2013, 7:26pm Top

Okay I just added a Started Reading date. I entered "yesterday" and did a Save and then looked at it. It says 2013-04-23. Shouldn't that be 2013-04-24? http://www.librarything.com/work/9388/details/97426860

XP/FF 20.0.1

97timspalding
Apr 26, 2013, 1:09am Top

>96 bw42:

Are you using timezones?

98.Monkey.
Apr 26, 2013, 6:25am Top

>97 timspalding: At the time 96 was posted (presuming they're being at least relatively literal with their use of "just"), it was the 25th or 26th everywhere in the world, so "yesterday" should definitely not have been the 23rd, no matter what timezone...

99bw42
Apr 26, 2013, 11:58am Top

>97 timspalding: Yes, Pacific time, US & Canada

>98 .Monkey.: I was being quite literal, within 20 minutes certainly. I agree with your reasoning, that's why I was surprised. I am sure this used to work, I used it all the time in the old system.

100timspalding
Apr 26, 2013, 12:49pm Top

Yeah, nothing should be different about it. We should troubleshoot it at 7ish tonight.

101bw42
Apr 26, 2013, 1:05pm Top

>100 timspalding: Okay this is definitely strange. I had set date finished to today and that was right, it set it to 2013-04-26. I just changed it to yesterday and it set it to 2013-04-24.

So it seems like it is not the field but the yesterday that is screwy. I will leave the record alone in case you want to look at it.

102bw42
Apr 26, 2013, 2:12pm Top

I tried date acquired (on a different record), same thing. Today works, Tomorrow works, Yesterday gives the day before yesterday.

I just can't think of anything stupid I could be doing that would cause this. I am going to post it as a bug.

103.Monkey.
Apr 26, 2013, 2:22pm Top

This afternoon I put one in as "yesterday" and it worked fine for me. No idea what's going on for you! lol

104MarthaJeanne
Apr 26, 2013, 3:16pm Top

Yesterday worked fine for me this morning as well.

105LolaWalser
Apr 26, 2013, 6:58pm Top

Er... sorry if this comes across as a mere gripe (without remedy), but entering dates finished for four books in a row today really drove home how much smoother the old way was.

I always enter the dates finished in the catalogue. Before, double clicking on the field would let me enter the date and hitting enter would save it and close the field.

With the new lightbox, I had to close the box four times (for four dates). And then none of the dates registered in the field until I navigated away and back to the page.

Another thing--I chose the Dec 25, 2012 format (simply the habit I've developed on here, not indicative of a general preference). For some reason January 1, 1969 won't abbreviate to Jan 1, 1969, whether I enter the month in full or just "Jan". Entering other months for other books (February, March, April) worked fine, as usual I typed in full month and it got shortened.

106timspalding
Apr 26, 2013, 8:27pm Top

I always enter the dates finished in the catalogue. Before, double clicking on the field would let me enter the date and hitting enter would save it and close the field.

So, the way it's supposed to work now is exactly this—you click, it puts you in the right field and enter closes and saves.

With the new lightbox, I had to close the box four times (for four dates). And then none of the dates registered in the field until I navigated away and back to the page.

Closing the lightbox throws away the edits. Can you describe to me exactly what you're doing?

107brightcopy
Edited: Apr 26, 2013, 8:42pm Top

I really wish you'd remove the close button here. Close buttons that do something non-obvious (does it save? does it cancel?) are a common user interface trap.

But what I think Lola may be talking about is when it something doesn't update in the catalog, even though it saved. I've run into this as well.

108LolaWalser
Apr 26, 2013, 8:53pm Top

Double click on field in the date finished column; lightbox pops up centrally, enter the date, hit enter or click save, it says Saved, click to close the box, box closes... field still looks empty. Click on another page, return to previous page, date appears in the field.

I get that it's saved, but it's disconcerting not to see it immediately in the field like before.

#107

Yeah, I thought others were seeing this too...

109timspalding
Apr 26, 2013, 9:15pm Top

>108 LolaWalser:

Yeah. Something's broken. What Browser and OS are you? What catalog view? I'm going to pick a book of yours with no data and mess with it.

110LolaWalser
Apr 26, 2013, 9:26pm Top

Chrome Version 26.0.1410.64 m , Windows 7

Thanks

111timspalding
Apr 26, 2013, 9:26pm Top

Nice version number. I suppose I know why Android versions are now named things like "Ice-cream Sandwich."

112brightcopy
Apr 26, 2013, 10:26pm Top

All you really have to pay attention to is the "26". Even Android has a bunch of minor version numbers if you bother to look. ;)

113timspalding
Apr 26, 2013, 10:29pm Top

Butter Pecan Ice Cream Sandwich.

114timspalding
Apr 26, 2013, 10:54pm Top

Bug confirmed. Damn it.

115keristars
Apr 26, 2013, 11:03pm Top

114> You're annoyed about the presence of the bug, but I'm sure LolaW and I are pleased because it means the tedious aspect that made editing from the catalogue less useful isn't actually intended, and maybe it's meant to be just as easy/quick as before. :)

116timspalding
Apr 26, 2013, 11:13pm Top

Heh. I get to express annoyance now and then. Also, fucking Browserstack won't show me Chrome JS bugs. Okay, I'll stop. I should have a beer. Worse code, better mood.

117timspalding
Apr 27, 2013, 12:28am Top

Okay, should be fixed. Let me know if you like it now.

118VivienneR
Apr 27, 2013, 2:15am Top

That was a fast beer!

119timspalding
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 3:05am Top

Heh. No beer. That's the problem with exercise. You exercise for an hour and at the end of it, you could undo all the calories you've "lost" with a beer and a piece of toast.

120ScarletBea
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 5:00am Top

Oh wow! I had the same issue (had to refresh to see the saved date), also in chrome/w7, but I thought that was normal, hehe
Thanks for changing it :)

Honestly, I'm around a few sites with loads of users, and you are the most present, interested and helpful owner/manager EVER :D

(and don't mention exercise... I go for a 5k run and then have to restrain myself away from the biscuits when I get back :))

121_Zoe_
Apr 27, 2013, 7:15am Top

Well, ideally your exercise will result in gaining muscle that will continue to burn calories even when you're not doing anything.

122LolaWalser
Apr 27, 2013, 8:41am Top

AH yessss! That's it! Closes of itself, shows up instantly! Thanks!

123egret17
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 11:19am Top

YES (re #24). This is driving me crazy. Books reread on or before 4/22/2013 still sort properly (per the most recent date finished), as in this example:

http://www.librarything.com/work/13096968/edit/90438005

Books reread after that date are NOT sorting by the most recent date finished anymore but instead by the original date finished, as in this example:

http://www.librarything.com/work/13098713/edit/90451063

124timspalding
Apr 27, 2013, 12:16pm Top

Well, ideally your exercise will result in gaining muscle that will continue to burn calories even when you're not doing anything.

I'm dubious.

>123 egret17:

Can you tell me what field you're sorting on?

125_Zoe_
Apr 27, 2013, 12:20pm Top

>124 timspalding: You're dubious that that can happen in general, or that you're personally exercising enough for that?

126timspalding
Apr 27, 2013, 12:23pm Top

Both, I suppose. I'm an exercise pessimist.

This pessimism is pretty warranted. My hope is to get fit. Very very few people successfully lose weight by exercising. Indeed, few people lose weight no matter what they do. I'm 42. I've been here before :)

127norabelle414
Apr 27, 2013, 12:23pm Top

Noooooooooo talking about running.

128Helenliz
Apr 27, 2013, 12:28pm Top

I lost loads of weight training to run a marathon and it felt like I was eating like a horse at the same time. Weight & bulk just disappeared from everywhere.
The thing I did wrong was to carry on eating that much but finish the marathon... I'd better get those running shoes out again.

129VivienneR
Apr 27, 2013, 12:29pm Top

>126 timspalding: "Exercise pessimist" - I love that. I'm going to keep it in mind and use it often.

130egret17
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 12:56pm Top

>124 timspalding: I'm sorting on -date read.

131_Zoe_
Apr 27, 2013, 1:00pm Top

>127 norabelle414: I wasn't trying to talk about running! You have to be running pretty long distances for it to make a difference. For someone just trying to lose fat by exercising, say, three times a week for 45 minutes, strength training is much more effective.

132rebeccanyc
Apr 27, 2013, 1:01pm Top

#126 OK, I can't resist, even though this is a VERY dumb joke!

What is the best exercise for losing weight?

Pushing yourself away from the table!

I warned you!

(And I'm older than you, so I've been there more times than you.)

133Nicole_VanK
Apr 27, 2013, 2:22pm Top

Very very few people successfully lose weight by exercising

Exercising is not about losing weight - it's a common misconception though. But exercising builds muscle tissue, and muscle tissue, if properly used, will burn up that fat.

134brightcopy
Apr 27, 2013, 2:49pm Top

Nah, I'm with Tim on this. Lot's of research has gone into showing that unless you're doing some massive amount of exercising (we're talking almost a part time job here), exercising does little for weight loss.

What has been shown which I'm sure is applicable to Tim as well as LOTS of people reading this is that sitting at a desk for hours is conducive to weight gain/retention. We just have jobs/hobbies that are one of the worst in terms of that.

About the best thing you can try is a treadmill desk. Some people can code at them, some can only surf or game. I generally fall into the latter category. But at my peak, I could generally get in an hour or two a day at about a mile an hour. Think about how much time you spend on the computer and you can see that that's pretty "easy" compared to a lot of other tedious activities. The computer stuff really helps take your mind off it. Or you can watch TV/movies.

The problem with exercise is that your body is so great at counter-balancing. You ramp up the activity and your body says "crap, we're in trouble - better make every calorie count!" You have to exercise even more to try to compensate. Low speed walking that replaces otherwise sedentary time has been shown to not throw that evolutionary tripwire.

Now to just put that into practice and get back on the wagon (err, treadmill) regularly. Last time I did this along with very moderate diet changes (basically just trying to lay off the sodas, the bag of chips, the big size sandwich instead of the regular, the ice cream only once every week or two), I lost about 40 pounds over about 6 months. Then the baby came and wrecked all that. :D

135brightcopy
Apr 27, 2013, 2:51pm Top

Oh, and the last thing I'll throw out there (this is the topic for weight loss tips, right?) is that even if other forms of exercise are effective, I just find them incredibly boring. If something is that tedious to me, there's no way I'll stick with it. With the treadmill idea, it's really not that different than what I'd be doing anyway. I just do it while walking. I can even read a book!

136Nicole_VanK
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 2:56pm Top

I did say : "muscle tissue, if properly used". It does take some effort, and not just every once in a while.

If you can't: going without food for a couple a days in a row might work too.

ETA: Unless you're a diabetic, in which case I would strongly advise against the latter option.

137overlycriticalelisa
Apr 27, 2013, 3:02pm Top

i really feel like an idiot asking this, but none of this conversation even made sense to me because i can't even seem to get to the lightbox or this "yesterday" thing for dates read. am i in the wrong view or something?

138.Monkey.
Apr 27, 2013, 3:09pm Top

>136 Nicole_VanK: Going without food puts your body into starvation mode and it does exactly what brightcopy was saying, does its best to reserve every bit of fat for this "emergency" lack of food, and pretty much shuts down your metabolism entirely. It's really the last thing someone trying to lose weight wants to do; unless of course they plan on being anorexic for the rest of their lives. Which, er, yeah. >_>

139Nicole_VanK
Apr 27, 2013, 3:29pm Top

Not advocating anorexia. But it's "simply" a matter of burning up more than you get in.

140MarthaJeanne
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 3:31pm Top

137> The lightbox is new and is in 'your books'. If you double click on one of the reading dates (started or finished) you should get the light box letting you edit your reading dates for that book.

You can enter the date in various ways. One of the easiest is to type 'today' or 'yesterday' into the box (there or on the edit book page) instead of the date. In my browser I get previous values for at least some entry fields, so I can just click on today or yesterday when entering the date I finish a book. (Again this is browser, not LT.) But even if you type it, that is easier not to have a typo in than the date. That various ways of entering the date work is one of those things that you find out in topics like this one.

141Nicole_VanK
Apr 27, 2013, 3:33pm Top

> 137: Not ignoring you: I simply don't have the answer though.

Conversations not making sense is one of the hazards on LT. They tend to spin out of control.

142overlycriticalelisa
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 3:42pm Top

>141 Nicole_VanK: =)

>140 MarthaJeanne: thanks. i was trying to get the lightbox to pop up in the book edit page, i think it was, trying to add a new book to currently reading

143brightcopy
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 4:03pm Top

#139 by @BarkingMatt> Unfortunately, it's really NOT so simple. Your body is highly evolved to tune its metabolic rate to best fit a multitude of scenarios. And the other piece that makes it not so simple is that just as important as weight loss is maintenance. You body is also great at "rubber banding" its metabolism back once it's "out of crisis". That's why the hardest thing to do is keep it off.

ETA: It's kind of like saying MPG in your car should always be constant, no matter how fast you're driving or what kind of terrain you're traversing or how hard the wind is blowing towards you. Oh crap, car analogy! Okay, it's kind of like the kind of car HITLER would drive. Hah, thread over!

144Nicole_VanK
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 4:19pm Top

Right, but I'm pretty sure the first law of thermodynamics also applies to humans.

Probably not the "official" wording, but: In a closed system, the total amount of energy always remains constant because it can neither be created nor be destroyed.

In other words: when you're using energy, and you're not refueling, you must be using up reserves.

145brightcopy
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 4:23pm Top

#144 by @BarkingMatt> Of course it applies. But the human body also changes how much energy it will waste. That's a key part of the equation. Even if you spend three hours a day exercising, how fast your body ticks along the other 21 hours is a HUGE factor.

146Nicole_VanK
Apr 27, 2013, 4:46pm Top

Ah, you mean something like going to the gym for an hour, once a week. No, that won't do it.

147timspalding
Edited: Apr 27, 2013, 9:14pm Top

brightcopy - Tell me more about your treadmill desk? Did you buy one? I jury rigged a standing desk for a while. I'm considering doing it again. But it definitely hurt my back after a while.

My problem is also the boringness one--boringness plus pain is no fun. My wife got me/us a Netflix-enabled TV recently, however, hung in front of the treadmill. That makes the time pass quickly, if I'm not running too fast. Still, it's time. Members may have noticed I commonly work until 2am. I don't have a lot of extra time.

i really feel like an idiot asking this, but none of this conversation even made sense to me because i can't even seem to get to the lightbox or this "yesterday" thing for dates read. am i in the wrong view or something?

Are you double-clicking on the date fields in your catalog?

148PhaedraB
Apr 27, 2013, 9:23pm Top

147 > Rather than a standing desk, consider one of those big balancing balls instead of a chair. All those micro-movements are great for your back. The hazard, of course, is that you can fall off of it.

149timspalding
Apr 27, 2013, 9:33pm Top

Meh. I've tried it. Good for the back, but not much else. They told my wife to try it when she was giving birth. She tried it for about five seconds and then got back into bed. :)

150PhaedraB
Apr 27, 2013, 9:41pm Top

I loved mine until we tried to see if the cat would balance on it. Cats have claws...

Of course, that's a problem you would never have ;-)

151brightcopy
Apr 27, 2013, 10:15pm Top

#147 by timspalding> Well, there's not a whole lot to tell in my case. It's a "Nordic Track Commercial 1500" treadmill that I bought from Costco. I went that route because a big problem is that a lot of treadmills will wear out quickly if you are always using them at low speeds. So I got the that one because I knew with Costco's fantastic return policy I could get my money back should it crap out too soon. Plus they were a really great price (don't remember but I could probably dig it up given then time). It was also nice and long so I didn't feel like I'd be walking on a tiny area by the time I set up my computer on it.

So I took that and just slapped a board across the cross-bars. I'm not exaggerating - it's just a 1x12x5 or something like that (aspen, I think) that I grabbed at the hardware store. Didn't cut it or do anything fancy (keep meaning to). I just threw that over the crossbars. The fancier part was I bought a wall mount for a monitor and hung it up so I could use that. But now that's the baby's room so I just have my laptop on top of a box to bring the height up.

I tried standing desks as well and definitely didn't like them. Weirdly enough, I found low speed (1 to 1.5mph) easier to maintain than just standing. I think it just works the various muscles better instead of concentrating it right in the small of your back. I can do that for an hour with no problem. I could never stick with it if I was jogging/running (always loathed that). But that's okay because as I said there are numerous studies showing that it has a big impact on metabolism (some from the Mayo clinic down the road from me that apparently had a lot to do with kicking off the treadmill desk trend).

On the other hand you have my friend who bought a specialized treadmill. It won't even go over something like 3 or 5 mph and doesn't have any apparatus apart from the treadmill base itself (the controls are on a breakout box). Then he build a simple little monitor stand with a few 2x4s and some door hinges so he could swing it up for the treadmill and back down next to it for the seated desk.

One thing I've done lately to motivate myself is decide that I'm only allowed to watch this one web video series I'm really into if I'm on the treadmill. That's also helped.

Good luck!

152timspalding
Apr 27, 2013, 10:47pm Top

House of Cards?

153brightcopy
Apr 27, 2013, 11:25pm Top

#152 by timspalding> Whatever motivates you. You could come at it from the other direction and only allow yourself a specific show on the regular tv. I'm thinking something from MTV's fine line of reality television...

154jjmcgaffey
Apr 28, 2013, 1:07am Top

134 etc> For me - mild, regular (daily) exercise does wonders, even with an awful diet. The problem is I can't stick to it. When I was going to university in London - no car, so I got places by foot, bike, bus or Tube - I ate basically candy and butter (chicken Kiev, frozen and microwaveable) and junk of various sorts, and I was the lightest I've ever been as an adult. Now I'm back in the states, eating reasonably healthy (and, admittedly, older), but driving most places (no _time_ to walk!) - and barely managing to maintain at rather higher weight than I should be at.

I may try that treadmill desk, if I find one I can afford. I'm never going to go to a gym, and making time for a 30-minute brisk walk every day (though it worked and felt good) keeps not happening. I like the idea of limiting access to something, too.

155MarthaJeanne
Apr 28, 2013, 6:55am Top

123> I am seeing this too. I have made a bug report. http://www.librarything.com/topic/153596

156LucindaLibri
Apr 29, 2013, 6:05pm Top

>45 timspalding: re date format vs. date entry

(First admitting I have not read all of the above.)
In general, liking the changes.
I'm having a bit of trouble sorting out whether the new date format is about how dates appear, how I have to enter them, or both.

As far as I can tell (so far), I don't HAVE to enter dates in the same format I want them to appear . . . (I want to enter yyyy-mm-dd but I want to read Mmm dd, yyyy) . . . so it looks to me like "Date format" is really just about how they appear, not how they are entered. I LIKE that, but I'm finding it confusing . . . (especially with that little reminder under the entry box, given that I don't want to enter that way).

Am I correct about the separation between entry and appearance? or no?

Also, I note there is no "Date Format" page in the wiki to explain this . . . Perhaps once things are all sorted out, someone could add one.

Finally, I'm having trouble with sorting by dates (e.g., to get books started but not finished) . . . but several people have mentioned and/or posted on related issues, so I'll check back later and add details if my issues seem different . . .

157jjmcgaffey
Apr 29, 2013, 11:23pm Top

Correct - this is a display matter. They're stored (after translation from however you want to enter them) as a Unix timestamp, so LT really doesn't care. And your chosen format is not confusable - just, people who want to enter mm/dd/yy or dd/mm/yy need to check to make sure LT understood what they meant to enter (because months and days can get tangled up).

Yeah, a Date Format page would be good. I'll help, if I get the time.

There's a bug about editing multiple reads making it sort by the first set of dates and not the last - but that's not what you're talking about, I don't think. http://www.librarything.com/topic/153596

158wmorton38
Edited: Apr 30, 2013, 11:59am Top

I have about 375 books in my library that have (or rather had) “Finished” dates prior to 1970. Just from spot checking it seems that all those dates have disappeared. I have the dates on a spreadsheet but I don't want to go back in and replace the dates just to have them disappear again. There has always been a problem with these dates. Anytime I edited one of those records I knew that I had to replace the Finished date which would go away with the editing but this is the first time they have all vanished.

159timspalding
Edited: Apr 30, 2013, 1:39pm Top

>158 wmorton38:

The previous system was incapable of saving dates before 1970. This was the bug. They could not have been visible.

160.Monkey.
Apr 30, 2013, 4:01pm Top

I just noticed at least one of my books the dates apparently got weird when this happened. The started date was missing in the column, so I went to add it, and apparently there was a second set of dates created that it was switched to. Doesn't look like any more have that, but a few are missing dates, which is odd. Nothing that's a big deal, just funky.

161wmorton38
Edited: Apr 30, 2013, 4:52pm Top

>159 timspalding:

Tim,

I'm not sure what you mean by "they could not have been visible." I emailed you about it when I first joined LT and you're right, at that time it would not take a pre-1970 date. But you did something then that allowed me to add those dates. They would stay in the record until I edited it and then I had to go back in and re-edit that date field. But other than that the dates stayed around just fine. I have downloaded my library as a spreadsheet and the dates are there. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

162overlycriticalelisa
Apr 30, 2013, 5:03pm Top

>147 timspalding:

thanks, tim, totally my bad

163timspalding
Edited: Apr 30, 2013, 6:34pm Top

I have downloaded my library as a spreadsheet and the dates are there. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

Let me investigate. I apologize for a disturbing slip from omniscience here. Please please don't change anything in your library. I'm wondering if ONE of the places that had the dates allowed earlier data.

164gaidheal01
Apr 30, 2013, 10:37pm Top

Has this update affected how the 'timeline' works?
For a couple of months now, while trying to access https://www.librarything.com/lttl/ on my desktop, I have received the error message: "Caught exception: TypeError: xml is null". Admittedly, this is probably from an error I made while entering dates, as this has happened since before the update. Although, I've just gone through all of my books with reading dates entered and can't see any error.
The odd thing, though, is that timeline DOES work from my smartphone's browser.
I'd love to see the timeline developed more, but I'll post my suggestions for that in a more appropriate thread! I just hope it can still work as it did before with the new date-read improvements.
Thanks!

165seabear
Apr 30, 2013, 11:07pm Top

It looks like the new fields are not being used for the "date ended" column (at a minimum) in the tab-delimited export file. I updated the Finished date for a book, but there is no change in the export file.

166jjwilson61
Apr 30, 2013, 11:28pm Top

The timeline isn't a supported feature.

167jjmcgaffey
Apr 30, 2013, 11:29pm Top

166> Unfortunately. Love to see that finished.

168norabelle414
May 1, 2013, 8:49am Top

>166 jjwilson61: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

169StephenBarkley
May 1, 2013, 9:40am Top

I've got the same timeline error—and I used that unsupported feature frequently. What good is data without ways to visualize it?

170majkia
May 1, 2013, 12:03pm Top

where does one find timeline????

171jjwilson61
May 1, 2013, 12:37pm Top

Try the link in post #164. It's not a supported feature so it doesn't have a link from within the application.

172majkia
May 1, 2013, 12:46pm Top

Thanks Jeff. It's not working for me either, but at least I have the link to get to it in case it starts to work. ;}

173jjmcgaffey
May 1, 2013, 2:08pm Top

Some slightly advanced bits - http://www.librarything.com/lttl/?view=jjmcgaffey&tlmode=0 shows my timeline (put in your own username, or anyone else's) and both entry and reading dates (tlmode=1 shows entry dates only). There's no reading-dates-only view (sigh). Oho! with view and tlmode, it works! No xml error. So a workaround to get to what we have, at least.

Oh. Never mind - it works without the additions, too. Ah, got it - it doesn't work on https. Which Firefox, at least, is defaulting to these days. Just take the s off and it will work.

174norabelle414
May 1, 2013, 2:13pm Top

My timeline will load, but it does not account for any dates added since The Change. So it's basically stuck where it was a week ago.

175majkia
May 1, 2013, 2:14pm Top

Oh, that's great! thanks for that, Jeff.

176jjmcgaffey
May 1, 2013, 2:48pm Top

174> Argh, you're right! Neither added nor read dates show. Bah.

177jjwilson61
May 1, 2013, 2:50pm Top

175> I think you have your jj's confused. jjcmgaffey is a Jennifer.

178majkia
May 1, 2013, 3:02pm Top

hey, the two of you aren't allowed to BOTH respond on one thread! and, yeah, I'm easily confused!

179jjmcgaffey
May 1, 2013, 6:31pm Top

178> LOL! I always know who's who - I'm over here and he's over there... :D

180norabelle414
May 1, 2013, 9:57pm Top

>179 jjmcgaffey: Are you SURE about that??

181Nicole_VanK
Edited: May 2, 2013, 2:54am Top

> 164: I get that error for the https address (as in your link) not when I use http.

ETA: Ah, jjmcgaffey already said that

182gaidheal01
May 2, 2013, 10:29pm Top

Ah, brilliant, the removal of 'secure' from the url allows me to reenter the timeline! Thanks to jjmcgaffey and BarkingMatt.

Also, it's good to see other users of this feature voice their support :D

183thcson
May 29, 2013, 1:57am Top

(165) "It looks like the new fields are not being used for the "date ended" column (at a minimum) in the tab-delimited export file. I updated the Finished date for a book, but there is no change in the export file."

I also noticed this problem today when I exported. The date ended column is blank in the export file for every book I finished after the date-read improvements.

184timspalding
May 29, 2013, 9:55am Top

Thanks. It needs a fix.

185LucindaLibri
Aug 20, 2013, 12:19am Top

Something odd happened this week with one of my reading dates. I had set my date format to display as Month Day, Year . . . though I was continuing to enter as yyyy-mm-dd . . . I was assured above (>157 jjmcgaffey:) that that would work.

Unfortunately, I recently started a book on 2013-08-11 . . . and LT changed that to November 8, 2013 instead of August 11, 2013.

I hope nothing else has gotten similarly jumbled, but am losing faith.

In light of this problem, I've changed my preferred date format back to yyyy-mm-dd . . . it is not what I prefer to see displayed, but it is how I do data entry . . .

I honestly don't know whether this is considered a "bug" or just a part of this date "feature" . . .

186jjmcgaffey
Aug 20, 2013, 2:57am Top

It's a weird one - Tim or someone thinks that Europeans write dates with dashes and Americans with slashes. So if you'd entered it 2013/08/11, it would have come out in August. I much prefer dashes myself (American), but I suppose there has to be some sort of assumption on the mm-dd vs dd-mm question. So when I write a date on LT, I have to remember to slash it (as I can't think in dd-mm).

187r.orrison
Edited: Aug 20, 2013, 9:00am Top

It's a bug. 2013-08-11 is unambiguous. Nobody anywhere* writes yyyy-dd-mm; yyyy-mm-dd is the ISO standard. Interpreting 2013-08-11 as 8 November 2013 is just wrong. Separator shouldn't matter.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format_by_country

188saltmanz
Aug 20, 2013, 12:22pm Top

I've always written all of my LT dates as yyyy-mm-dd and have never had an issue.

189keristars
Aug 20, 2013, 12:24pm Top

188> But did you change the default display to something else? That seems to be what Lucinda's bug is about.

190saltmanz
Aug 20, 2013, 12:28pm Top

No, I've always used the default display, like Lucinda.

191LucindaLibri
Aug 20, 2013, 12:49pm Top

>190 saltmanz: As I said, this happened when I was NOT using the default display. I had changed it to display as Month (spelled out) Day, Year . . . but was entering as yyyy-mm-dd . . . (because what I want to read is different from how I enter data).

> 187 . . . should I repost the issue in bug collectors?

192saltmanz
Aug 20, 2013, 1:41pm Top

I guess I misremebered what the default display style is; I didn't remember changing mine. Pulling up my catalog while logged out, though, I see that it must be yyyy-mm-dd.

I use "Aug 20, 2013" as my display style, and as I said, I exclusively use yyyy-mm-dd to enter dates, and have never encountered an issue.

Lucinda, were you using the "August 20, 2013" style?

193LucindaLibri
Aug 20, 2013, 5:37pm Top

> 192 Yes (as I've now written three times), for display, but not for entry . . .

194_Zoe_
Feb 9, 2015, 1:59pm Top

Did Part 2 of these improvements ever happen?

195_Zoe_
Feb 17, 2015, 12:09pm Top

Also, did the dates ever end up getting a hidden time included so that we could get the correct ordering for multiple books started/finished on the same day? There was a lot of discussion of it here, but I can't remember whether anything actually came of it.

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