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Test out: Adding Little Free Libraries

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1timspalding
Edited: Nov 19, 2013, 10:50am Top

This thread was moved from the BETA Group into Talk About LibraryThing, since there's so much good stuff here, and so much that members will want to point to. Note, however, that this is mostly for quoting and historical interest. Many of the issues discussed in message 20 or 100 were decided by message 200 or 250.



At SqueakyChu's request, I've added a feature to add "Little Libraries" to LibraryThing Local. "Little Libraries" is a cover term for "Little Free Libraries," as well as BookCrossing Zones. I also fancy it covers Christian Science Reading Rooms and—I'm sure—many similar things.

As SC explained, the particular problem is with Little Free Libraries—most of their libraries aren't mapped, and aren't getting mapped. I will let her explain the problem further—and let me know how to finish this feature.

So far, you can add these "Little Libraries":



Here's how they look in the lists, but you have to "show all" on these venue lists



And here's how they show up on the map:



You can find that one at http://www.librarything.com/local/place/Portland%2C+ME+04103%2C+United+States

At present all "Little Libraries" are white—and always shown on the map.

I THINK we need a way to see blow up the map, and distinguish between these subtypes. We may need a BC Zone number. And we need other (reasonable) subcategories.

SqueakyChu: This is your party. Tell me what the next steps are?

2majkia
Nov 12, 2013, 8:25am Top

nice!

3JBD1
Nov 12, 2013, 8:26am Top

I added the one near me! http://www.librarything.com/venue/86377/Essex-Road (there's a photo at http://www.flickr.com/photos/68010601@N03/9527907100/ but I'll try and take some of my own the next time I'm by).

4lorax
Nov 12, 2013, 9:13am Top

Nice.

5lilithcat
Nov 12, 2013, 9:24am Top

> 1

What's a "Little Free Library"? How are you defining "Little" libraries? I'm concerned that someone might think, "well, my public library is pretty small, I'll stick it there". Are people going to start mapping their home libraries, as the Jordan family apparently is doing in your example?

This way madness lies, unless there are clearly stated guidelines (and I mean stated on the Local page when you map when, not buried in a talk thread.)

I also fancy it covers Christian Science Reading Rooms and—I'm sure—many similar things.

Why should Christian Science Reading Rooms not be listed under "bookstores"? That's what they are, at least according to the Church of Christ Scientist, who ought to know.

(OFF-TOPIC: I noticed when I click on your Portland link that some of the libraries listed have a notation that says "LibraryThing is collection-aware". What does that mean?)

7divinenanny
Edited: Nov 12, 2013, 9:30am Top

It's not a home library, it is a Little Free Library.

See about the Jordan Family's Little Free Library: http://www.pressherald.com/news/little-free-libraries-a-good-read-on-community-s...
And about Little Free Libraries in general: http://littlefreelibrary.org/

ETA: ;-) >6 jjwilson61: Simulpost :D

8lilithcat
Nov 12, 2013, 9:30am Top

> 6

Oh, like the shelf in the building laundry room, except open to the public.

9divinenanny
Nov 12, 2013, 9:30am Top

Yeah :D

10timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 9:32am Top

No, that's a Little Free Library. See http://littlefreelibrary.org

Why should Christian Science Reading Rooms not be listed under "bookstores"?

Interesting. I didn't know they self-branded as such. They are laid out and organized far more like libraries—I'm sure most of the books aren't for sale. Certainly nobody's ever entered them as bookstores into LT. I rather prefer putting them as LLs, and then segmenting them away and off, since I don't think they've very high value. I'll go quiz them on it later today. There's on right next to the barber where Liam and I are going to get out haircuts.

LibraryThing is collection-aware

Actually, that's escaped code. If you click through to the libraries, you'll see



Basically, we know exactly what books these libraries have. We can do things like recommendations for you that are in your local library.

11lilithcat
Nov 12, 2013, 9:35am Top

> 10

There's one right next to the barber where Liam and I are going to get out haircuts.

That must come in handy when you've read all the old magazines at the barber shop!

12timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 9:36am Top

Snort.

13brightcopy
Nov 12, 2013, 9:40am Top

That's why I always keep a book in the car.

14timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 10:12am Top

Now showing up on the Helper Stats page: http://www.librarything.com/local/helpers

15norabelle414
Nov 12, 2013, 10:26am Top

Does the "little" collections cover things like a take-a-book, leave-a-book shelf at a coffee house?

16timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 10:28am Top

Yes. Often those are BookCrossing zones, but not always.

I was thinking of adding another thing for the littles--a field for whether it's a static collection or a take-a-book arrangement.

Waiting for SC, though.

17_Zoe_
Nov 12, 2013, 11:50am Top

I like it!

18matthewmason
Nov 12, 2013, 12:50pm Top

Little Free Libraries are a great idea, a great cause, and integration into LibraryThing local will certainly help out. Distinctions concerning the collection type would be nice, especially for those who have to travel a little to get to them.

I've been intending to get involved and make prototype for my own house in my free time, (I have access to power tools, and scrap wood). There are no LFL locations/stewards in my area currently.

19timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 1:01pm Top

>I have access to power tools, and scrap wood

Dangerous man.

20_Zoe_
Nov 12, 2013, 5:38pm Top

While you're adding venue options, could we get a "remaindered" option along with new and used for regular bookstores?

21SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 8:25pm Top

Whoa...Go to work and look what happens!! This is nice, Tim! Thank you.

What are the "Littles"?
Basically I see Little Free Libraries, BookCrossing zones, and coffee house book shelves as basically the same thing. They are free public book exchanges. They must be accessible to the public, although, like actual book stores, they may have hours during which they are not accessible (for example, the Little Free Library in Brookside Gardens in Wheaton, Maryland is only open when the gardens are open).

What do the "Littles" have in common?

All of the "Littles" are a small collections of books which are free to be taken and managed by an individual or a group of individuals or a business (for example, the now defunct Book Exchange shelf that I loved so much in Rockville, Maryland was run by Café Mayorga - which, incidentally, had great coffee). DO NOT list public book exchanges on LT Local if the books may not be freely taken.

What about the "Littles" is different?
I've found that some Little Free Libraries have different "rules" than what the LFL website suggests. One LFL I visited thanked me ahead of time for "returning" the book I borrowed. This did not agree with my idea of a book *exchange*. A free book exchange allows books to be freely taken as well as donated.

How to list Little Free Libraries on LT Local?
I would recommend that all Little Free Libraries that are entered onto LT Local be entered with a name AND the charter number. That will help distinguish one from another. Not all Little Free Libraries are registered at the LFL website. Those will not have charter numbers. List those by name (or make up a name based on their location).

What about BookCrossing Zones?
This is a tough one because some are "official" and some are not official. Some BookCrossing zones are also Little Free Libraries.

Tim...how can we list those that are both? I think that Little Free Library trumps Official BookCrossing Zone (OBCZ).

What is nice about having LT Local do this?
For one thing, the Little Free Library website is very backed up in entering LFLs on their map. This is all done by a few volunteers, and I know that there are well over 9,000 Little Free Libraries already in existence and more being created every day. As an example, I set up my Little Free Library in July and it was just added to the LFL website just two days ago.

Another thing I like about having the "Littles" on LT Local is that we can add comments. That is not allowed on the LFL website nor is there a place for such a thing when looking at BookCrossing zones. Comments help visitors know which "Littles" are worthwhile visiting. For example, I found that one LFL did not exist where it was supposed to be located. Another one was entirely empty, but later it was filled with books in plastic bags (to keep them dry - which didn't work). Most of those I visited were well stocked and adorable!

*takes a breath ... but will be back*

Questions?

22SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 8:29pm Top

> 18

I've been intending to get involved and make prototype for my own house in my free time, (I have access to power tools, and scrap wood). There are no LFL locations/stewards in my area currently.

Well, Matt...get busy! :)

Distinctions concerning the collection type would be nice, especially for those who have to travel a little to get to them.

This is all handled easily with description of each LFL or under comments. One LFL near me is themed so that it only does children's books.

23SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 8:39pm Top

Correction Needed

The first thing that needs to be corrected with the way the program is set up now is that anything called "Little" has to show up on an LT member's Local page. When I changed my own LFL (located on my front lawn) from "Library" to "Little", it disappeared from my Local page completely. I might never be able to find it again! :)

24timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 8:42pm Top

Thanks Squeaky. I'm going to lean on you a bit on this. First, here are some replies to your replies.

They are free public book exchanges

We could change "Little Libraries" to "book exchanges." Rather than splitting it this way, I was going for small collections--allowing it to be used for small static shelves too, like the parenting resources at a local health center. What do you think?

I think I'm going to add a field for "Static" vs. "Exchange" for these. FLLs and BCRs would be the latter. (Personally—if I had a LFL—I'd want a static collection, to read and return. I would love to stock a library with my favorite books and let people take them out. I'm not as keen on having a shelf on my property that demonstrates Gresham's law and three weeks hence is full of crap. But perhaps I am not in the right spirit.)

DO NOT list public book exchanges on LT Local if the books may not be freely taken.

Give me some examples. But I think we can segment those out some how. The feature was designed to allow the entry of the LFLs, but not be limited by them.

I would recommend that all Little Free Libraries that are entered onto LT Local be entered with a name AND the charter number. That will help distinguish one from another. Not all Little Free Libraries are registered at the LFL website. Those will not have charter numbers. List those by name (or make up a name based on their location).

Okay, but how are we going to do this? How do we know where they are? Do we start and then open things up?

I'd like to get a reasonable number in—hundreds, at least—before announcing to the world.

I expect some blow-back on this. LFLs has previously declined to work with us. The presence of LFLs is a fact, and cannot be copyrighted. And obviously there's a need, since they aren't keeping up. And we'd be glad to give them a feed of LT's data. Even so, I expect blow back. How do we keep this to a minimum?

Tim...how can we list those that are both? I think that Little Free Library trumps Official BookCrossing Zone (OBCZ).

It's no problem. They're checkboxes on purpose. You can say it's both a LFL and a BCZ. You can also add new categories. Something could be a LFL, BCZ, Christian Science Reading Room and whatever.

Official BookCrossing Zone (OBCZ)

So, are there numbers for OBCZ? Where are they listed? Shall we create two categories? Another field to list the official BC number? A field to check that it is in fact official? Help me out here.

we can add comments

You can also add them as favorites, and mark when you've visited one. I encourage LTers to mark all the FLFs and BCZs they've visited.

25SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 8:44pm Top

> 1

I THINK we need a way to see blow up the map, and distinguish between these subtypes. We may need a BC Zone number

No, you don't. That's too complicated. All you need is a location. Official BookCrossing Zones are permanent.

For example, BC in DC, the Washington area BookCrossing group, has several Official BookCrossing zones (OBCZ). Here's the list of them.

26timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 8:45pm Top

To to be clear, SC, you tell me how to roll this out. So far we have 5 LFLs. That's not very impressive. If you think it'll work, we need to get it to work. I can task Matt with adding some, but, as with all such projects, most of the impetus needs to come from the community. If the community is over there, how do we get them here?

27timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 8:46pm Top

For example, BC in DC, the Washington area BookCrossing group, has several Official BookCrossing zones (OBCZ). Here's the list of them.

Okay, but that's a special list kept on a site separate from BookCrossing. That's not a universalizable workflow.

28timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 8:48pm Top

The first thing that needs to be corrected with the way the program is set up now is that anything called "Little" has to show up on an LT member's Local page. When I changed my own LFL (located on my front lawn) from "Library" to "Little", it disappeared from my Local page completely. I might never be able to find it again! :)

Click to show all.



If you think these should be listed by default, make a case. I think we may want to show them in a separate place.

29SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 8:58pm Top

> 24

We could change "Little Libraries" to "book exchanges." Rather than splitting it this way, I was going for small collections--allowing it to be used for small static shelves too, like the parenting resources at a local health center.

I delved into those parenting book collections when my kids were young, so, yes, those would be good.

Small collections sounds fine.

if I had a LFL—I'd want a static collection

If you did this, your collection would soon get stale. Trust me! We're talking about very little collections (25-50 books fit in an average LFL).

I would love to stock a library with my favorite books and let people take them out.

People don't take out your favorite books. They take out their favorite books. It astounds me what people take and what people don't take!

I'm not as keen on having a shelf on my property that demonstrates Gresham's law and three weeks hence is full of crap.

I have not yet (in four months) had any "crap"donations. I have had brand new books donated as well as some very old books that needed new readers.

30SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 9:00pm Top

> 24

DO NOT list public book exchanges on LT Local if the books may not be freely taken.

Give me some examples. But I think we can segment those out some how. The feature was designed to allow the entry of the LFLs, but not be limited by them.


If you want to include "static" collections, than disregard my statement above (DO NOT list..."). I was referring tot he LFL that wanted me to "return" all books I borrowed.

31SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 12, 2013, 9:11pm Top

> 24

Okay, but how are we going to do this? How do we know where they are? Do we start and then open things up?

We know where they are from their map! That's how I find the ones that are up. The problem is that if they're not mapped, we can't find them. That was my original complaint!

I know one that's not on the map yet because my husband built it! It's this one which I already put on LT Local.

I expect some blow-back on this. LFLs has previously declined to work with us. The presence of LFLs is a fact, and cannot be copyrighted. And obviously there's a need, since they aren't keeping up. And we'd be glad to give them a feed of LT's data. Even so, I expect blow back. How do we keep this to a minimum?

I have no idea! When the shit hits the fan, are they going to revoke my LFL charter?! LOL!!

32timspalding
Edited: Nov 12, 2013, 9:13pm Top

>31 SqueakyChu:

Okay, shall we divide the world up and have a Wiki page for people to claim a state, or whatever? That seems the best way I can think of. Does this seem like a good plan to you?

I'll start by doing all those in Maine that are on the map.

Related question: How much do you think we can "take" from the LFL site. Sometimes they have images, etc.? (Fundamentally, if you don't tell me, it's a matter of a take-down notice. But we should discuss policy.)

33SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 9:16pm Top

>24 timspalding:

There are no numbers for Official BookCrossing Zones. You might want to examine this forum on BookCrossing. I have no idea where the list of Official BookCrossing zones is. I only track the ones in the DC area.

http://www.bookcrossing.com/forum/27

34SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 9:20pm Top

> 26

To be clear, SC, you tell me how to roll this out. So far we have 5 LFLs. That's not very impressive. If you think it'll work, we need to get it to work. I can task Matt with adding some, but, as with all such projects, most of the impetus needs to come from the community. If the community is over there, how do we get them here?

I have no idea as there is no forum, no "community" of stewards, nor any way to contact anyone else who has a Little Free Library. I started a Facebook page for my own LFL but very few LFLs are on FB or on Twitter. There is no central "gathering place" for the stewards. The only thing we do is write to the LFL website if we have an issue.

35timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 9:23pm Top

So, what should the LT "Name" for this one be?

http://cl.ly/image/1p2x443g3L2c

36SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 9:24pm Top

> 28

Click to show all

I never saw this feature! Now that I click on "All", it shows up.

The problem is that these venues are so small that no one will be able to find them unless they're listed.

I think we may want to show them in a separate place.

Where would the separate place be?

37SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 9:28pm Top


Okay, shall we divide the world up and have a Wiki page for people to claim a state, or whatever? That seems the best way I can think of. Does this seem like a good plan to you?

It sounds...perfect!

Don't take the photos. We can take pictures of them as we visit them. That's what I've been doing. All we're doing is identifying a LFL and stating where it's located. I've been adding comments as well.

38SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 9:33pm Top

> 35

I named mine after my neighborhood. My friend named hers after her street.

LFL of South Portland or LFL at Reynolds

The names can always be changed later if there are two with similar names. It's really the number that identifies them, but a list of LFL with just numbers is bad. When we listed all the B&N stores, each had a number as well as a name. Remember?

39timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 9:34pm Top

How much of this content should we duplicate?

http://cl.ly/image/422K140Q1o3a

40timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 9:39pm Top

Other people are going to need to do some, and run into the same problems I'm seeing. I can't see a good way to name them that isn't by their location, i.e.,

http://cl.ly/image/1k2p0b2K0U1D

That is, the data has no consistent other way.

41SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 12, 2013, 9:42pm Top

I think, to start, and to avoid any "issues", just take the location. As LT members visit these LFLs, we can add more information.

As a visitor to several LFLs in MD, it didn't matter to me who stewarded them nor to whom they were dedicated. All I really cared about was being able to locate them.

42SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 9:41pm Top

> 40

Other people are going to need to do some, and run into the same problems I'm seeing. I can't see a good way to name them that isn't by their location

By location is the best way.

43_Zoe_
Nov 12, 2013, 9:44pm Top

Yup, I agree with naming by location.

44secret_elf
Nov 12, 2013, 9:48pm Top

Okay, by the street address, then.

Here's how it looks for me, after doing all the Maine ones.

http://cl.ly/image/031i2j1m2d1c

45secret_elf
Nov 12, 2013, 9:48pm Top

(This is Tim, btw.)

46SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 12, 2013, 9:53pm Top

That would work. Why can't I add any?

The LFL website map is driving me crazy!!

47timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 9:53pm Top

As a visitor to several LFLs in MD, it didn't matter to me who stewarded them nor to whom they were dedicated. All I really cared about was being able to locate them.

I wish there was a way to link back to the LFL page. I don't like fragmenting data like this.

48timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 9:53pm Top

Why can't I add any?

It's not working?

49SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 9:57pm Top

No. let me try on FF.

50timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 10:00pm Top

Bug fixed. Sorry. It was adding them, though. It just wasn't finishing.

51SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 10:00pm Top

It's not working for me there either.

52SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 10:00pm Top

Okay. Let me try some more.

53timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 10:04pm Top

I've now done both Maine and New Hampshire. Vermont looks tougher.

SQ: Do you agree with the idea of dividing by region? I'd love to do it by charter number, but I see now way, and many of the ones I'm finding have no charter number.

54SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 10:04pm Top

Why doesn't the # of the LFL show up?

55timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 10:04pm Top

Yeah, you were making duplicates. Shall we choose the most recent and close the others?

http://cl.ly/image/0e083x1k1m2Z

56timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 10:05pm Top

Why doesn't the # of the LFL show up?

It's not programmed to. How would be the best way? Give me the format and I'll do that.

57SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 10:06pm Top

I never got the saved page. :(

Can you delete the dupes?

58SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 10:06pm Top

Add it to the LFL name.

59timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 10:10pm Top

Yeah, but tell me if it's working now for you first.

60SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 10:14pm Top

It's working now. Thx.

61timspalding
Edited: Nov 12, 2013, 10:20pm Top

Okay, I'll delete the others?

Here's a progress list: http://www.librarything.com/wiki/index.php/Little_Free_Libraries_Progress

That may be it for the night. I'll check back tomorrow, and sic Matt and Loranne on a state or two, to get the feel.

62SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 10:25pm Top

Delete the others. I'll be working tomorrow, but will check back in later this week to help. Send a message to MDGentleReader who likes to help with this kind of data entry. She's even been to my house in person to visit my LFL! :)

63SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 10:27pm Top

One thing that I don't like, though. I can't pull up the Little Free Libraries by the name.

64Collectorator
Edited: Nov 12, 2013, 10:32pm Top

I added one!
http://www.librarything.com/venue/86416
I went to their google map and entered the first one listed in Texas.

Do you want me to add all the Texas ones?

Will you tell me if what I have done is okay?

The google map gives you the GPS coordinates. Is that okay where I put it?

eta, ooo i should snag the picture!
etaa, this photo is all rights reserved, how silly
etaaa, I put the LFL number on it, but that doesn't show up in our listing on LT. Where'd it go?

65timspalding
Edited: Nov 12, 2013, 10:30pm Top

One thing that I don't like, though. I can't pull up the Little Free Libraries by the name.

You mean by "Little Free Library"?

The google map gives you the GPS coordinates. Is that okay where I put it?

Adress is fine.

66qebo
Nov 12, 2013, 10:30pm Top

I've claimed Pennsylvania (since I'll have a LFL by the end of the year), but not tonight.

67SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 10:35pm Top

> 65

You mean by "Little Free Library"?

Exactly. :(

68starfishian
Nov 12, 2013, 10:38pm Top

I'm adding Canada to the progress list.

At only a few per province, it shouldn't take long to capture them all.

69Collectorator
Nov 12, 2013, 10:47pm Top

http://www.librarything.com/venue/86421
another I added

I'm just not sure about the naming convention on these.

What would you put?

70SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2013, 10:53pm Top

I'm not sure about the names. Tim likes the address. The names can always be changed later.

71timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 11:21pm Top

I think the name should be the street address. Some of them seem to have other titles, but nothing fits everything. The street address is simple and regular.

72Collectorator
Nov 12, 2013, 11:26pm Top

okey, dokey. I fixed the two I have added. I will add other Texas LFLs later...

73timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 11:27pm Top

State lines are easier to see if you click "Terrain"

http://cl.ly/image/2r2g3m131W0o

74timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 11:28pm Top

I'm always keeping the "In honor of…" lines.

75timspalding
Nov 12, 2013, 11:36pm Top

Finished with Vermont.

Okay, I think we're ready. We need to finalize any directions. And I need to figure out how they show up in Local generally, and add any sub-pages that show all the LTFs, or BCs, or etc.

76SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 13, 2013, 12:01am Top

> 74

I'm always keeping the "In honor of…" lines.

Okay.

In addition, encourage LT members to visit these Littles, take pictures of them, and add comments. That will really bring them alive.

77Nicole_VanK
Nov 13, 2013, 12:31am Top

Added my first one in my hometown: The Hague (Netherlands). Apparently we only have a handful in the entire country. But previously I didn't even know we had any. This is fun.

Probably a silly question, but just what is a LFL Charter Number and where do I find it? Is it the 4932 in "Lieke Ploeger, Steward #4932"?

78SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 13, 2013, 12:42am Top

The LFL number is given to those stewards who send in money to register their Little Free Libraries. That number is etched into a sign which is then attached to the LFL.

The LFL Charter number is the #4932 in your example.

79starfishian
Nov 13, 2013, 12:42am Top

>74 timspalding: - I'm also adding in the GPS coordinates. It may help for the more rural locations where things like house numbers are unavailable / non existent. Not a provable theory, but a theory which is mine, nonetheless.

80Nicole_VanK
Nov 13, 2013, 12:46am Top

>78 SqueakyChu:: Thanks. Will edit the ones I've added so far accordingly.

82Nicole_VanK
Nov 13, 2013, 1:36am Top

Holland is done - all 9 of them ;-)

Will be back for other areas when I have a little more time.

83Nicole_VanK
Nov 13, 2013, 2:13am Top

One "problem" though. Through links from their sites - some have them - I've found a few more that don't show on the official map. Here's one example: https://www.facebook.com/LFLTexel Should I add them?

84JerryMmm
Nov 13, 2013, 2:34am Top

@BarkingMatt - not all of the LFLs, just the official ones :)

85justjim
Nov 13, 2013, 2:37am Top

All the official LFLs in Australia are entered.

86Nicole_VanK
Nov 13, 2013, 2:55am Top

> 84: Okay, that's as I thought. Leaving as is then.

87TheoClarke
Nov 13, 2013, 6:28am Top

The UK is done.

88SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 13, 2013, 8:52am Top

> 83

Matt, That's a real problem for people who steward these LFLs. They are virtually impossible to find unless they are mapped somewhere. LT wants to be that "somewhere".

Please do enter the LFLs you've found that are not on the "official" LFL website map. They will eventually pay LFL to become an "official" LFL or they may choose not to. Then...eventually... the LFL volunteers will "map" those who paid to register. Either way, they are all free-standing Little Free Libraries operating in communities as free book exchanges.

It took me four months to get my own LFL "mapped" after it had been paid for, set up, and running. It would be great if you would also add the Facebook page as a web link to your entry for the one you found. I've found the Facebook pages to be a great way for LFL stewards to communicate with one another as there is no central forum.

89timspalding
Edited: Nov 13, 2013, 9:26am Top

I'm also adding in the GPS coordinates. It may help for the more rural locations where things like house numbers are unavailable / non existent. Not a provable theory, but a theory which is mine, nonetheless.

Where are you adding them?

BarkingMatt - not all of the LFLs, just the official ones :)

Wait, what's your point? I think we should add all of them, regardless. I don't care who's paid for a charter sign. I care what's out there, no?

Please do enter the LFLs you've found that are not on the "official" LFL website map. They will eventually pay LFL to become an "official" LFL or they may choose not to. Then...eventually... the LFL volunteers will "map" those who paid to register. Either way, they are all free-standing Little Free Libraries operating in communities as free book exchanges.

So, I thought that official/unofficial was whether they had a charter number. Is this true? Because many of the ones on the maps DON'T have an official number.

Do we need an "official" vs. "unofficial" status?

I need to poke around on the Google Map. We need a way to know when knew ones are plotted that isn't, well, looking carefully at everything again! Any ideas there?

I've found the Facebook pages to be a great way for LFL stewards to communicate with one another as there is no central forum.

I think I'm going to re-write to the LFL people and ask them to work with us. I suspect it will go nowhere.

90Nicole_VanK
Edited: Nov 13, 2013, 10:55am Top

> 88/89: Okay. Will do. No problem.

91Nicole_VanK
Nov 13, 2013, 12:09pm Top

> 89: I think I'm going to re-write to the LFL people and ask them to work with us. I suspect it will go nowhere.

I understand from their site that they are looking for ways to improve their mapping. So this initiative should come as a pleasant surprise.

92markbarnes
Nov 13, 2013, 7:44pm Top

I need to poke around on the Google Map. We need a way to know when knew ones are plotted that isn't, well, looking carefully at everything again! Any ideas there?

If you go to here, you can have the map as a KML file: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=m&dg=feature&aut...

I presume that URL will stay the same even if new places are added. You could of course scrape the KML, but if you felt uncomfortable in doing that, you could at least monitor it for changes.

93SqueakyChu
Nov 13, 2013, 7:56pm Top

> 89

So, I thought that official/unofficial was whether they had a charter number. Is this true? Because many of the ones on the maps DON'T have an official number.

According to the LFL website (which drives me crazy, BTW), the process of becoming "official" is this: Build or order a LFL, send in money and get a charter number and a numbered sign to put on the LFL, then send in pictures to get the now "official" LFL mapped. Why some have no charter number is beyond me. I have absolutely no idea!

We do not need an "official" vrs. "unofficial" status. It makes no difference! Both kinds of LFLs do exactly the same thing! We should include the charter number when we know it, though, for identification purposes.

Tim, I know of no way of knowing when or how the volunteers at littlefreelibrary.org add new "official" LFLs to their map. To me, they enter them *at random*. I suppose they do this in the order in which they receive the requests, but it's neither tied to geography nor to charter number. Perhaps LT members might just want to keep an eye out for new ones popping up in their own local area.


94SqueakyChu
Nov 13, 2013, 9:08pm Top

Tim, this is interesting...

http://www.librarything.com/profile/LFLWindsorDewitt

This LT member is a Little Free Library steward that I just met a few weeks ago. She lives in Alexandria, Virginia. I use BookCrossing to inventory the books I add to my LFL, but it looks as if this LT member joined LT for the same purpose!

95SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 13, 2013, 9:52pm Top

I'm getting discouraged. I changed some of the LFLs familiar to me from their "neighborhood name" to their addresses (the way you want all the LFLs categorized). Now I have no way to find them because I don't remember their addresses - only the neighborhoods/cities in which they are located.

How can I search (on LT, that is) for a LFL I know if I don't remember its address?

96starfishian
Nov 13, 2013, 9:41pm Top

>89 timspalding: - (I'm also adding in the GPS coordinates.) Where are you adding them?

In the description field along with Steward's name, "In honor of", etc.

97_Zoe_
Nov 13, 2013, 9:45pm Top

I think it makes sense to put the address as a default for an LFL that you don't know—but if it already has a name based on the neighbourhood or whatever, there's no reason to change it! And you can always have both: "Little Free Library of Twinbrook, Address".

98SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 13, 2013, 9:54pm Top

> 96, 97

I think I answered my own question. I went back and played with the edit button (which I never saw before!) on my own LT Local page. It showed me *exactly* where all the LFLs are!

I actually added "Rockville" to my own LFL's name here on LT as most visitors to this area have never heard of Twinbrook. However, it will probably have no more visitors until spring because it's just too cold and windy outside now!

99_Zoe_
Nov 13, 2013, 9:56pm Top

I can guarantee you at least two visitors! :P

100SqueakyChu
Nov 13, 2013, 10:39pm Top

Well, dress warmly!! I'll have to make you some hot chocolate before we exit the house!

101SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 14, 2013, 8:51am Top

I still very much do not like that the LFLs are not titled "Little Free Library of..." on our data base. Nothing else here has no name but just an address. It doesn't feel right to me. It also won't work on our search because no one can remember street addresses. We can remember cities, though.

I suggest that the title for each LFL should look something like this:

Little Free Library at 405 North Street NE #20176 - Leesburg

(20176 is the charter number, Leesburg is the city name)

102justjim
Nov 13, 2013, 11:39pm Top

I had been using the person's name plus LFL if it was a private LFL, if it was put up by some sort of institution, I used that name. Note that if you click on the venue, you get (Little Free Library) appended to the name anyway. eg
http://www.librarything.com/venue/86474/Allwood-Neighbourhood-House

103SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 14, 2013, 8:35am Top

(still playing with this feature...)

104qebo
Nov 14, 2013, 8:37am Top

101: Yes, a consistent naming convention would be a good thing. Especially if the idea is to work with the LFL people. I entered Pennsylvania yesterday per Tim's model w/ the addresses, and added other location info to the description. Then I did a search, and what came up were the ones that had Little Free Library explicitly in the name, not mine and not Tim's. Is the full street address necessary for the name? Re charter number, a few were missing in my bunch, and I'm guessing this was a LFL clerical issue; one actually had "#___" as if the person entering data didn't have the number on hand.

105SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 14, 2013, 9:00am Top

> 104

I found out how to find the ones that are local to you, but this is NOT intuitive.
1. Go you "Your Local".
2. Click on "edit".
3. Check "Little Collections".
4. Click "save locations".
5. Click "most".

It's taken me forever to figure this out!

I liked the naming convention we use for B&N. We standardized the name and added a one or two word "location" as part of the name. Actually B&N did this before we adapted it to LT Local. For LFLs, this could be a street name, neighborhood, city, etc.

Tim: Qebo and I are feeling frustrated that we cannot pull up LFLs easily with the Local search. (Resolved as of 9am on 11/14/13) :D

Is the full street address necessary for the name?

I think not. It's Tim's call.

Re charter number, a few were missing in my bunch

For our purposes, that is not important. If they get a charter number later, we can always add one when we discover the number.

106qebo
Nov 14, 2013, 8:52am Top

105: There aren't any local to me (well, except for the box in my living room). I did a search because I was curious to see how other people had entered the names.

107SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 14, 2013, 8:55am Top

> 106

I think it might work if you enlarge the radius in that box. I'm going to try it.

ETA: It works. Just enlarge the radius in miles in your edit box. Then save the larger radius.

108qebo
Nov 14, 2013, 8:55am Top

107: No, really, I entered all the LFL in PA. I know where they are. It's not a LibraryThing problem.

109SqueakyChu
Nov 14, 2013, 8:57am Top

Did you do what I said in msg #105? It really does work. I've spent two days trying to figure this out!

I can pull up all of the Little Free Libraries and BookCrossing zones within whatever radius of me that I specify.

110qebo
Nov 14, 2013, 9:04am Top

109: We're trying to accomplish different things. I was curious to see how other people had entered the data.

111SqueakyChu
Nov 14, 2013, 9:08am Top

Oh. Okay.

112qebo
Nov 14, 2013, 6:02pm Top

But, to get back to the point... consistent names. I'd like to enter more LFL, but I don't want to mess around with names, or have to go back and redo them. I like "Little Free Library of X #0000".

113Collectorator
Nov 14, 2013, 6:17pm Top

Yes, I am holding off until the naming is completely sorted out.

114SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 14, 2013, 7:46pm Top

> 112

I like "Little Free Library of X #0000".

That could work. I don't think it's worth going back to redo those LFLs we already entered, but I would like to see the way we name the LFLs in the future corrected to a title rather than an address.

I went back and renamed the ones near me so that they have real LFL names and not just addresses. That just feels better to me. Several of these (mine included) *do* have names.

What are you going to name your LFL, qebo?

115timspalding
Nov 14, 2013, 9:15pm Top

Lots to say. First, some confusion seems to have arisen because I rolled out a swath of new features and didn't announce them. (I had to run to pick up my kid and bring him to swimming class…) I'll start with those.

1. I changed the name to "Little Libraries." LT staff were one-from-unanimous in thinking "Little Collections" was less immediately clear.

2. Every local page—both your local and the local for any location now sports

Examples: (1) http://www.librarything.com/local (2) http://www.librarything.com/local/place/Portland%2C+ME%2C+United+States

Screen grab:



2. That link leads you to a page listing all the Little Libraries at the relevant location.

Example: (1) http://www.librarything.com/local/little (2) http://www.librarything.com/local/littleplace/Portland%2C+ME%2C+United+States

Screen grab here: http://cl.ly/image/32402m320h1W

As you will see, these pages use a different color key. On the main Local pages, Little Libraries are all orange. On these, LFLs are green, BCZs are yellow and other stuff is gray. (I expect we'll see other major categories down the road.)

3. Those pages have links on the map to a full-page map.

Example: http://www.librarything.com/local/map/little/

Screen grab: http://cl.ly/image/0A1W3K2z1x0E

More coming soon…

116SqueakyChu
Nov 14, 2013, 9:25pm Top

That looks more promising! :)

117Nicole_VanK
Nov 14, 2013, 9:43pm Top

>112 qebo:: I like "Little Free Library of X #0000"

Yes, except not all of them have such a number attached. And like SquakyChu says, some have real names.

>115 timspalding:: Interesting. Will have to edit info for some of the ones I've entered so far. (No huge deal). For many I'm not entirely sure if they're "regular" LFL or bookcrossing, so I think I'll leave most in "other".

118SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 14, 2013, 10:22pm Top

>117 Nicole_VanK:

Matt, I think Tim would prefer more entries at this time rather than lots of editing. Tim?

If you are not sure if a Little Free Library also is a BookCrossing zone, please put it in "Little Free Library" and not in "Other".

If a Little Free Library is also a BookCrossing zone, put it in both "Little Free Library" and also in "BookCrossing".

"Other" should be for book collections open to the public that are neither Little Free Libraries nor BookCrossing zones.

Little Free Libraries do NOT need a number to be one! Many Little Free Libraries are "in limbo". That is, they have been built and are operating, but have not received their number yet. Some LFL stewards have no intention of paying for a number. Those will never have a charter number, yet they still are LFLs.

119timspalding
Nov 14, 2013, 10:27pm Top

If you are not sure if a Little Free Library also is a BookCrossing zone, please put it in "Little Free Library" and not in "Other".

This is what people are missing. I need to say it again: the categories are check boxes.



If you check two of them, it shows up as:



The "Other" text box allows you to add new categories—"Public Bookcase," for example ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_bookcase ), "American Corner," ( see http://cornerview.me/about-american-corner/ ), "Christian Science Reading Room," etc. Once you use this one, it gets added to the checkboxes. Something could be listed in five categories.

This is the problem with "Little Free Library at 28 Johnson Street." It's hard to know how to deal with more complex situations. Does it get "Little Free Library at…" from the checkbox, or does the user have to enter it? If something is both a LFL and a BCZ, what do we call it? What treatment should future "other" categories merit, etc.

My solution is to title it as it's titled, and then follow up the title with parenthesis, listing all the affiliations.

I'm happy to change this. But we should decide whether to throw it overboard or not. Because doing both systems is going to give us "Little Free Library at 28 Pleasant Street (Little Free Library)," which is redundant and ugly.

120timspalding
Nov 14, 2013, 10:28pm Top

"Other" should be for book collections open to the public that are neither Little Free Libraries nor BookCrossing zones.

I think we can also include ones that are open, but not necessarily to everyone, or free. For example, a historical society may have a collection, but you need to present credentials, or perhaps buy a ticket to the museum.

121SqueakyChu
Nov 14, 2013, 10:46pm Top

Yeah, I have to agree about the redundancy. However what happens to the real name of my Little Free Library. Does it then just sit in the comments section? Answer: I guess it does! :)

122timspalding
Edited: Nov 14, 2013, 10:50pm Top

So, what's the real name?

I'm willing to go the other way, btw. We can just ditch the parenthesis, and leave it to a line like:

Type: Little Free Library, Book Crossing

on the venue page itself. Then the name contains it all. Maybe we should just fuck it and do that?

I'm not so sure about including the number, though. The number is not vital information you need to see in a list of places near you. I mean:

"It says 'Little Free Library at 28 Pleasant Street (#4212)!' is just two blocks away."
"Don't stop—all the four-thousands are crap!"

Shall we reverse course and put it in the name?

123Nicole_VanK
Nov 14, 2013, 10:53pm Top

> 118: If you are not sure if a Little Free Library also is a BookCrossing zone, please put it in "Little Free Library" and not in "Other".

If a Little Free Library is also a BookCrossing zone, put it in both "Little Free Library" and also in "BookCrossing".

"Other" should be for book collections open to the public that are neither Little Free Libraries nor BookCrossing zones.


Okay, will do. And "lots of editing" - I've only done 20 so far, so that's still doable. ;-)

> 119: A right, got you. The ones where I checked none - because I simply don't know for sure - all currently show under "other" though. Should "other" really be the default? (Open question - really not sure).

Here in Holland we have "Minibieb" (mini-library) that does much the same as LFL but seems to be unaffiliated (http://minibieb.nl/zoek-minibieb/) Will mark those "Minibieb"

> 120: Now that we have "other" I see no reason why not. And that answers a question I didn't even ask yet ;-)

124SqueakyChu
Nov 14, 2013, 11:00pm Top

> 122

LOL!! Tim...have you had a hard day?!

125qebo
Nov 14, 2013, 11:01pm Top

Several of the LFLs that I entered were in parks or associated with churches or university buildings. I entered the address, following Tim’s model, and put the name of the park/church/etc in the description, figuring it is meaningful to local residents. I’m hesitant to enter the name of the LFL as “Freedom Park” or “St Peter’s Church” even though the “(Little Free Library)” text is automatically appended, in part because it is the name of an official entity, in part because I’m not sure how stable the appended text is, but I agree that “Little Free Library ___ (Little Free Library)” is ugly. For LFL without a name, which is most of them, I don’t care for the address as the name. It’s not a huge deal, but entering the data is tedious, everyone’s making different plausible decisions, and the result has a haphazard appearance.

Aagh. A couple of posts slipped in while I was typing.

126Nicole_VanK
Nov 14, 2013, 11:03pm Top

> 122: So, what's the real name?

Well, for example, from "Minibieb" I found this one http://www.librarything.com/venue/86682 It is really actually called "De Boekenboom" (The Book Tree) and I see no reason why we shouldn't use that name.

127matthewmason
Nov 14, 2013, 11:04pm Top

>122 timspalding:

I like the current system: back-loading the categories within parenthesis, separating them from the name/address of the LFL venue. I think it look sharp and distinct.

>123 Nicole_VanK:

Your additions are very thorough, Matt--makes me want to go back and redo some of mine from earlier. Mini library look definitely worth adding under some category, perhaps as >126 Nicole_VanK:

128timspalding
Nov 14, 2013, 11:13pm Top

I've written to the American Corner people—many, many use LibraryThing, so I have contacts there—and asked for a complete list.

129SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 14, 2013, 11:16pm Top

The name of my LFL is the Little Free Library of Twinbrook #7720.
The LFL of petrini1 is the Little Free Library of Alexandria & Hancock #9136.
Another one near both of us is Little Free Library at Windsor and DeWitt (no number).

What happens is that, when stewards set up a Facebook page for their LFLs, the LFLs get named!

I like the numbers. They are an identity. They also tell the age of the LFL.

If you look at some LFL FB pages, you'll see that almost all of them include the charter number.

I can go either way at this point. I'll keep mine redundant, but I'll be happy to enter others however you think best.

130timspalding
Edited: Nov 14, 2013, 11:34pm Top

Okay, let's say "Little Free Library…"

and then "at 38 Pleasant Street," unless we know it has another name, like "of Twinbrook." If we know it does, do that. Do not use the person's real name unless you're sure they call it that way, since that's likely to tweak some people when they find their name on a website they didn't put it on.

I veto putting the charter number in the name. I use my magic powers to veto it! I have to have some powers, some time, right? We have a field for it. I can put that number on the Venue page. But it's clutter in other contexts. And I care about clutter.

I will remove the parenthesis, but put the content of them on the venue page as a type.

Vote: I say "okay."

Current tally: Yes 12, No 0

131SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 14, 2013, 11:38pm Top

Okay, let's say "Little Free Library…"

and then "at 38 Pleasant Street," unless we know it has another name, like "of Twinbrook." If we know it does, do that. Do not use the person's real name unless you're sure they call it that way, since that's likely to tweak some people when they find their name on a website they didn't put it on.


I'm good with that.

I use my magic powers to veto it!

I've been outvoted by magic!!

ETA: Actually, if you take out the charter number, it's less like you're copying info from LFL.org and more like you're posting useful information for the public.

132_Zoe_
Nov 14, 2013, 11:40pm Top

I'd personally prefer "Little Free Library of Pleasant Street" or "Little Free Library at 38 Pleasant Street". Tiny details, I know :P

133_Zoe_
Nov 14, 2013, 11:40pm Top

Oh, it already changed to at rather than of. Disregard.

134matthewmason
Nov 14, 2013, 11:41pm Top

Since LFL charter number will already on the venue page, the type distinction might as well be there too, distinguishing multiples (bookcrossing & LFLs). I'll cast my vote yes. Good point on "useful information."

135Nicole_VanK
Nov 14, 2013, 11:49pm Top

> 132/133: Since I'm not absolutely sure what would be the best way to phrase that in all European languages I might simple leave it out on some (Also there's not always an exact street address - I've seen such descriptions as "at the corner of X & Y, next to the public bench by the canal").

136SqueakyChu
Nov 14, 2013, 11:53pm Top

Er, what about BookCrossing?

Do you want us to list the venue (Soho Tea & Coffee) or the bookshelf (BookCrossing Zone at Soho Tea & Coffee)?

137timspalding
Nov 14, 2013, 11:57pm Top

>136 SqueakyChu:

You tell me. I'm out of magic.

138SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 12:03am Top

Well, maybe for consistency, we should then do "BookCrossing Zone at...". That would match "Little Free Library at..."

FYI: BookCrossers use the name OBCZ for "official BookCrossing zone", but I'm not sure that we have to do that here.

139_Zoe_
Nov 15, 2013, 12:34am Top

Yeah, I think "BookCrossing Zone at..." would make sense.

140Nicole_VanK
Nov 15, 2013, 2:57am Top

So do you guys think we should use OBCZ when we actually do know it's so?

141SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 8:00am Top

> 140

Well, then the question would be...Do we use "OBCZ at..." (which the general public will not know for what the letters stand - but is the popular usage) or "Official BookCrossing Zone at..." (which is quite a mouthful)?

If we don't use the charter numbers of "official" LFLs and simply title each as "Little Free Library at...", shouldn't we call all BookCrossing zones also by the same title simply to maintain consistency?

*astounded at the thought of how complicated this has all become*

142SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 8:04am Top

> 128

I have contacts there—and asked for a complete list.

Does that mean you're going to get a complete list of LFLs?

What do you want us to do now? Refrain from entering any more LFLs until you change how they will be entered?

143JerryMmm
Nov 15, 2013, 8:33am Top

Is it really important that something is a charter member or an official zone?

Important enough to be in the title, rather than just in the description?

144timspalding
Nov 15, 2013, 8:53am Top

Does that mean you're going to get a complete list of LFLs?

No, I was talking about American Libraries—the libraries the state department sets up in foreign countries. There is no complete list of LFLs, or so you told me.

145timspalding
Nov 15, 2013, 8:54am Top

Important enough to be in the title, rather than just in the description

I say no, but what do I know.

146SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 9:26am Top

> 145

I say no, but what do I know.

My inclination is toward "no" as well.

I've just been looking through the BookCrossing website. and it seems as if there is now *no* listing of the OBCZs (official BookCrossing Zones). All of the previously set up directories, wikis, etc. are no longer working or have been corrupted. Now is actually a great chance to jump in and have Bookcrossers use LibraryThing for cataloguing all of their OBCZ (or simply BookCrossing zones).

I don't want to jump the gun with others. Let me know when I can contact someone* on BookCrossing to see how we can work this out as I know we're still in Beta and hashing out what to do before this feature is released on LT.

*This "someone" is an active Bookcrosser who happens to live in Portland, Maine. :)

147SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 9:19am Top

> 144

There is no complete list of LFLs, or so you told me.

The only entity that has a complete list (to my knowledge) is littlefreelibrary.org which collects the information as people send them $$$ to have their LFLs chartered.

148SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 9:23am Top

OFF TOPIC:

A moment for me to explain why LFLs are fun to maintain...

----------------------------

After being really disappointed that my first LFL Guest Book disappeared on Halloween, I was delighted with this happening...

I posted the following on my LFL Facebook page:

---------------------------

Here are some comments this week from our (new) Guest Book!

"I love this idea!!"

"I am reading "The Giver" for my book club." (entered by a 6th grader)


----------------------------

Here's the response I got:

-----------------------------

That's my 6th grader!!!
She joined the book club, which began today, at school & that was the book they chose to read. The Twinbrook & Town Center libraries didn't have it, so we decided to check TFL. I remember you putting up a post saying it was available, but I didn't think it would still be there. And there it was
Thank you.


------------------------------

This was a book donated to the Little Free Library of Twinbrook by a frequent visitor. It is registered on BookCrossing. It's not an actual BC "catch" as no journal entry was ever made. However, it's a very heartwarming "catch" in my heart!

I still think that Little Free Library and BookCrossing are a match made in heaven. :D

149markbarnes
Nov 15, 2013, 9:26am Top

There is no complete list of LFLs

Did you see my message above, with a link to an XML file of all official LFLs?

150timspalding
Nov 15, 2013, 9:29am Top

All of the previously set up directories, wikis, etc. are no longer working or have been corrupted

This doesn't work?

http://www.bookcrossing.com/hunt

151SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 3:27pm Top

> 149

I'm guessing Tim didn't see your message about the XML file. I have no knowledge of how to open or use such a file.

152norabelle414
Nov 15, 2013, 9:32am Top

>149 markbarnes: I think they're talking about a list of official AND unofficial LFLs.

>150 timspalding: The "hunt" section includes any place that a book has been left, not just OBCZs. If you're in the hunt section and you see a place a book was left that has a little globe icon next to it, that is an OBCZ. With no globe, it's just some random place someone left a book.

153SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 9:38am Top

> 150

This doesn't work?

Not well. It's a start.

There are some BookCrossing zones listed. We would have to carefully choose those. However, many of the entries are simply places where BookCrossers release books "in the wild" (example: "Left this on the coffee table of the Hampton Inn in Birch Run, MI. Hopefully whomever finds it enjoys it. ")

To see if the venue is really a "BookCrossing zone", one would have to read the book's journal entries. That can be done, though.

154SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 9:43am Top

> 150

With no globe, it's just some random place someone left a book.

It's not that clear either. For example, I use my LFL as a BookCrossing zone, but choose not to make it "official" so as not to (1) bombard people with BookCrossing literature and (2) scare off people from my LFL who choose not to participate in BookCrossing or who don't understand the concept of BookCrossing.

155jjwilson61
Nov 15, 2013, 9:43am Top

What's the name if it's a LFL *and* a OBCZ?

156SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 10:05am Top

> 154

What's the name if it's a LFL *and* a OBCZ?

Little Free Library trumps BookCrossing.
Call it "Little Free Library at..."
Put in the description of the LFL that it is also a BookCrossing zone (or accepts BookCrossing registered books).

This is how I dealt with that issue...
http://www.librarything.com/venue/84141/Little-Free-Library-of-Twinbrook-%237720

157matthewmason
Nov 15, 2013, 2:27pm Top

>154 SqueakyChu:

Just make sure not to include the charter number in the name, as dictated by the magic wand in >130 timspalding:.

158SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 2:35pm Top

I like knowing the LFL charter number. Any objection to putting that number in the description box?

159norabelle414
Nov 15, 2013, 2:59pm Top

>158 SqueakyChu: It should definitely go in the description box, just not in the name.

160timspalding
Nov 15, 2013, 3:03pm Top

There is an explicit field for it.

161Collectorator
Nov 15, 2013, 3:22pm Top

160, yes, but even when you fill it in, it does not display on the record anywhere.
That's why I said, in Message 64, "etaaa, I put the LFL number on it, but that doesn't show up in our listing on LT. Where'd it go?"

162timspalding
Nov 15, 2013, 3:23pm Top

I'll make it display.

163SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 3:24pm Top

160

There is an explicit field for it.

...but that field won't show up to read unless we click on "edit", will it?

164SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 3:25pm Top

> 162

I'll make it display.

Oh. Okay.

165EmScape
Nov 15, 2013, 4:57pm Top

If people are entering LFLs from the LFL website based on state/other geographical boundary, is that person also responsible for monitoring the website to see if new LFLs pop up on the map? I am going to claim Minnesota. I don't mind doing this, but there are a lot of them here, and I'm not sure I'd notice which are new. I didn't see anywhere on the website that "features" new additions that we could monitor.

166EmScape
Nov 15, 2013, 5:06pm Top

Can we link to the picture on flickr in the description? Or is that copyright prohibited somehow?

167EmScape
Nov 15, 2013, 5:19pm Top

I'm also doing North Dakota while I'm at it.

168qebo
Nov 15, 2013, 6:52pm Top

89: So, I thought that official/unofficial was whether they had a charter number. Is this true? Because many of the ones on the maps DON'T have an official number.
I’d guess from the ones I’ve seen in Pennsylvania that it’s a clerical issue, at least sometimes, not necessarily a formal status.

149: Did you see my message above, with a link to an XML file of all official LFLs?
Yeah, but the problem is the ones that _haven’t_ been mapped. SqueakyChu’s LFL wasn’t mapped until four months after she officially registered.
BTW, the KML that I downloaded is truncated; is yours? Thanks though, got me clicking around. the map with a list on the sidebar (link at the bottom of the LFL map page) is more useful for data entry than the default map.

165: That is a question. Tim’s onto it in post 89: We need a way to know when knew ones are plotted that isn't, well, looking carefully at everything again! Any ideas there?

169leahbird
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 7:38pm Top

I'll jump in and do Tennessee. Surprised to see that there are a couple in my area. I've been meaning to put one up but I live in the middle of nowhere and people pulling into the driveway unexpected tends to make everyone nervous. ;) And the people around here are more likely to use it as a drug drop than to actually pick up books...

Did that Wiki ever get started to claim areas?

ETA: Just thought of another type of small collection that might be of interest: Book Geocaches! I don't actively cache anymore, but when I did, the book ones were so much fun. There is one on my favorite walking path in town. Thoughts?

170qebo
Nov 15, 2013, 7:37pm Top

171leahbird
Nov 15, 2013, 7:57pm Top

Alright, I've officially found my FAVORITE thing.

I give you the Little Library Chicken!



172qebo
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 8:03pm Top

171: Fantastic!
Your entry raises another question: are we adding contact info? I hadn't been. Though this one is a business, so maybe a distinction between business (has an internet site) and personal?

173qebo
Nov 15, 2013, 8:04pm Top

It would might be helpful, as questions are answered and standards set, to add a data entry bullet list to the first post.

174_Zoe_
Nov 15, 2013, 8:19pm Top

>171 leahbird: That is amazing!

175SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 8:23pm Top

> 169

Book geocaches sound like fun. I think that would work.

> 171

Love the Chicken Little Library!

176SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 8:25pm Top

> 149

The sidebar is certainly helpful. Working from that LFL website map is a nightmare. :(

177leahbird
Nov 15, 2013, 8:51pm Top

Tennessee is done. I will tackle other bits of the South tomorrow.

178SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 10:07pm Top

I love My Local "Little Libraries" page now. It's perfect! :)

What I like love about it (the way I have mine set up now) is...

1. It's simple and uncluttered.
2. It includes all nearest LFLs, BC zones, and book exchanges on one page arranged in two columns with the map to the right of the columns.
3. They are arranged in order of location from closest to me (on my front lawn!) to farthest from me.
4. The map and colored dots are the same ones I'm used to using here on LT (not like those houses on the LFL website).
5. It's easy to change the start location.
6. For more detail, I can just click on each individual venue.
7. All venues are editable.

Thank you, Tim!

179SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 10:24pm Top

> 89

Just re-reading what we've worked on for the past few days and found this:

I think I'm going to re-write to the LFL people and ask them to work with us. I suspect it will go nowhere.

I wish it would go somewhere. A really cool use of LT would be to set up a group for LFL stewards. BookCrossing has some great forums on their website, but LFL has zip on theirs.

180SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 10:26pm Top

> 91

I understand from their site that they are looking for ways to improve their mapping. So this initiative should come as a pleasant surprise.

...or an unpleasant surprise.

181timspalding
Nov 15, 2013, 10:27pm Top

Well, right. Who knows.

182SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 10:52pm Top

> 152

If you're in the hunt section and you see a place a book was left that has a little globe icon next to it, that is an OBCZ.

You even have to be careful about listings with a "globe". Check the date of the latest releases. If they were last updated in 2102, I would guess that the "official" BookCrossing zone you think you just discovered may, in fact, now be defunct.

183timspalding
Nov 15, 2013, 10:59pm Top

We could put that in comments, perhaps. In either case, we can link to the page.

184SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 11:12pm Top

Defunct BookCrossing zones sometimes revive. :)

185SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 11:14pm Top

Here's an idea for those of you who have been adding entries over the past few days. Go back and look at your own "My Local" to see if the "Little Libraries" page looks okay. I just went back and reviewed all of the entries on my own. I deleted some charter numbers (which I had insisted on entering earlier) and one duplicate entry. That page now looks great!

186timspalding
Nov 15, 2013, 11:16pm Top

You can set your distance to 1,000 miles (more than that won't take). Everything within 1,000 miles of me is okay. That's as far as my love reaches.

187SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 11:16pm Top

:)

188SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 15, 2013, 11:34pm Top

I'll work on adding the Bookcrossing Zones from BC's Go Hunting page, but I'm not adding (for now, at least) the ones that seem defunct to me. That seems not to serve our purpose. I'll be starting with the BC zones in the USA. I've added that info to our progress wiki.

189timspalding
Nov 15, 2013, 11:39pm Top

I hear you. You can use the "defunct" marker, however. That might help down the road. Or not. It depends and is not highly consequent.

On new LFL ones, there are two ways this can go:

1. I can parse the XML. I'm very wary of using the XML to import locations—both for the data and legally. But I am not against parsing the data in order to spotlight ones that might be new, which can be hand-added. But I have to write that code.

2. If things go right, the LFL movement will accept LibraryThing's data as the definitive record. We will gladly share our data with them and anyone else.

190SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2013, 11:55pm Top

I can parse the XML. I'm very wary of using the XML to import locations—both for the data and legally. But I am not against parsing the data in order to spotlight ones that might be new, which can be hand-added. But I have to write that code.

That's IT speak and over my head. Do what feels right to you.

By the way, can I have another line under LINKS on the "Add Venue to LibraryThing" page called "Bookshelf". I can add the BC Bookshelf page there. Otherwise, I can just add it to the link called "Website". Which do you prefer?

191timspalding
Nov 15, 2013, 11:58pm Top

I've got it going on the venue page.



By the way, can I have another line under LINKS on the "Add Venue to LibraryThing" page called "Bookshelf". I can add the BC Bookshelf page there. Otherwise, I can just add it to the link called "Website". Which do you prefer?

Can you say this another way? I'm confused.

192timspalding
Nov 16, 2013, 12:00am Top

I need a paragraph to put on the right side of venue pages, explaining what LFL and BookCrossing zones are. Anything that should be in there?

193SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 12:30am Top

On the page called "Add Venue to LibraryThing", the bottom of the page has boxes into which I can enter a "WebSite" or an "Events URL". Could I have another line called "Bookshelf" into which I could enter the URL for the BookCrossing Bookshelf (the actual bookshelf/list of books released in one BookCrossing zone)?

Not really needed.

194SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 12:33am Top

I need a paragraph to put on the right side of venue pages, explaining what LFL and BookCrossing zones are. Anything that should be in there?

------------------

LFL - a free neighborhood book exchange encouraging neighbors to take a book. leave a book, or both

Perhaps a link to the LFL website?

------------------

BookCrossing zone - a bookshelf offering free books labeled with an ID number to encourage book sharing and on-line book tracking

Perhaps a link to the BookCrossing website and a link to the Go Hunting page?

-----------------------

Mostly we need to get across the idea that there are no strings attached to participating in either of these activities. Both can be done anonymously, and both are free.

195SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2013, 12:25am Top

Never mind on the extra line for the "bookshelf" URL. It's really not needed.

196SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 12:49am Top

> 191

I've got it going on the venue page.

It looks great. This should make everyone happy (...even me). I cannot wait to tell other Bookcrossers* about this!!

*does happy dance*

* I know more Bookcrossers than I do LFL stewards. :)

197SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 9:43am Top

New Problem (Bug?):

Now, upon entering the info for a LFL, the charter number does not save at all. :(

ETA: For me, only. It seems to be saving for qebo. ???


Resolved.

198timspalding
Nov 16, 2013, 9:29am Top

Yeah, it does. You may have hit a moment's delay between database servers. Reload the page and you'll see.

199SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2013, 9:30am Top

Oh. Okay.

200SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 9:43am Top

No. It's still not working.

Look at this page. for example.
http://www.librarything.com/venue/86893

I put the charter number in the box and hit save. Afterward, the venue page says this venue has "(no charter number)".

I put the charter number in the description so I can move on, but this has happened for both pages I just entered.


Resolved. I took the character "#" out of that box, and it now saves.

201timspalding
Nov 16, 2013, 9:45am Top

Ah, yeah, it's supposed to be a number. I'll make it remove non-number characters. But it's not going to save "apple pie."

202SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2013, 9:50am Top

What about if there are two LFL at the same address? Shouldn't we label one "#1" and the other "#2".

This example has two libraries at the same address with two different charter numbers:

http://www.librarything.com/venue/86896/Little-Free-Library-at-Boardwalk-of-Brad...

http://www.librarything.com/venue/86895/Little-Free-Library-at-Boardwalk-of-Brad...

Qebo entered these. I have been labeling such LFLs as #1 and #2 because I'm afraid, otherwise, someone might come along later and delete one as a duplicate entry.

203qebo
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 10:12am Top

202: Yeah, I wasn't sure when I entered them (a few minutes ago... you're on top of things!). They have the same street address too, but different charter #s.

ETA: I think you're right to be concerned about someone thinking they're duplicates, so I've labeled them #1 and #2 in order of their charter #.

204SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 11:09am Top

:)

Thanks!

FYI: I was just about to delete one - until I noticed that they were not duplicates at all.

205timspalding
Nov 16, 2013, 11:22am Top

I should have a country and state-by-state listing summary and listing page up by tonight. I think that completes the features that need to be done here.

Anything else?

206qebo
Nov 16, 2013, 11:32am Top

205: Address posts 172 & 173?

Thanks. State by state summary would be very nice.

207timspalding
Nov 16, 2013, 11:35am Top

Yeah, I don't know. I'm worried about taking data that LFLs will claim is "theirs." And I'm worried about putting personal names up—not that they aren't up anyway. I'm divided, and was hoping the LFL people here would provide the answer.

208SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 11:56am Top

> 205

Anything else?

I can't think of a thing beside the following question.

I started adding email addresses for contact information (since LT has the @ graphic so they can't be captured by bots).

Should I include email addresses or not? I know that, at first, I said no. What do you think?

I'm worried about taking data that LFLs will claim is "theirs."

I can easily delete those I recently added.

ETA: The more I think about it now, I think, "No". That's because individual stewards gave the right to publish their email addresses to LFL.org, and not to us nor to any other entity.

209qebo
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 11:56am Top

207: I'm opting for not. I'm entering only address and charter #, figuring I'll take responsibility for the ones I've entered and add more info later as decisions are made. Even though technically the names and email addresses are already on the internet, there's a bit of an etiquette issue with proliferating, IMO. People gave permission to LFL by registering, but not to LT. (You can add this to The Circle discussion...)

210SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 12:03pm Top

> 208

I see we agreed about this at the same time. I'm going with my first inclination and deleting the email addresses I recently added. I don't want to be more like FB and less like LT. :)

What about "Location"? I'm adding that information. Is that okay?

211Collectorator
Nov 16, 2013, 12:02pm Top

Without location, what are we doing???

going in to delete emails...

212SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2013, 12:03pm Top

> 210

I don't mean the address. I mean the added information in the description.

213Nicole_VanK
Nov 16, 2013, 12:04pm Top

Will delete emails.

214qebo
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 12:05pm Top

210: If it includes a location such as "City Park" with a street address, I've been naming it "Little Free Library at City Park", incorporating location into the name. If the location is something like "front yard" of a residential address, I haven't bothered. I'd think the location is worth adding if someone looking for the LFL box would have trouble finding it otherwise, e.g. "park entrance".

215Collectorator
Edited: Nov 16, 2013, 12:12pm Top

Found a typo:
There are bo "Little Libraries" within 0 miles.
bo

Now I need to know how to find the Locals I have entered. I closed all the windows pertaining to this and now I am lost again.

eta: I found this page:
http://www.librarything.com/local/helpers which has a section for Added By You, but it shows me as Zero.
I have added two! Is this a bug?

etaa: On my home page, in my Your Helps, it does say I have added two. But when I follow the link I get the same page as before with no info about what I have done.

216SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2013, 12:12pm Top

> 214

I've been naming it "Little Free Library at City Park"

I like that. I'll do the same.

217SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2013, 12:54pm Top

Off topic

Just for fun, I wanted to show you a BookCrossing journal entry I received today to show you how well Little Free Libraries and BookCrossing integrate with each other.

218starfishian
Nov 16, 2013, 11:56pm Top

I like the naming convention everyone ultimately landed on. When I added LFLs like...
  • Little Free Library at Honey Bee Island
  • Little Free Library at Strawberry Crescent
  • Little Free Library at Butternut Avenue

    ...they sounded so much prettier than they would have with the original listing names. Or, maybe I'm wrong, and I just need to go eat something.

    Oh -- and Canada is all done!
  • 219SqueakyChu
    Edited: Nov 17, 2013, 12:30am Top

    > 218

    The thing is...that's the naming convention I had wanted in the beginning. It's funny how things work out.

    Eating something is always good - no matter what!

    I did a whole country as well. I did Israel - which has one Little Free Library. :)

    I see that a few non-BETA people (not knowing we're working on the "Littles", I presume) are starting to put in BookCrossing Zones, but titling them "Official BookCrossing Zones". I've been changing these as I encounter them and putting the Official BookCrossing Zone (OBCZ) designation in the description (so as not to make it disappear completely or frustrate the people who make the original entries). We might have to revisit this issue in the future, but for now I like the way we're titling the BookCrossing Zones.

    I know that people are proud of their OBCZs, but not all BC zones are "official" (just as not all LFLs are "chartered"). I like that the naming convention of the BC zones matches that of the LFLs.

    High five to each of you who've been helping with this project!!

    220Collectorator
    Nov 17, 2013, 2:30am Top

    I just had a thought. If you leave a book at an LFL, stamp it with the LT stamp first!

    221Nicole_VanK
    Nov 17, 2013, 2:36am Top

    Sneaky, I like it ;-)

    222JerryMmm
    Nov 17, 2013, 4:35am Top

    So, can you write up an instruction now that the naming convention seems to have settled?

    223qebo
    Edited: Nov 17, 2013, 7:57am Top

    222: So, can you write up an instruction now that the naming convention seems to have settled?
    I've been hoping Tim would put this in post #1... but maybe it can go on the Little Free Libraries Progress wiki page?

    I'm waiting for the state-by-state list of post 205 to check my entries for consistency.

    224SqueakyChu
    Edited: Nov 17, 2013, 8:34am Top

    > 220

    stamp it with the LT stamp first!

    I don't do LT stamps, nor do I do LFL labels. I don't like lots of stamps/labels/writing on my books. I do just one inside-the-book-cover BookCrossing label because that is the only possibility I will ever have of tracking a book.

    It's not a big loss for LT, however, because I'm forever linking to LT on my LFL's Facebook page. LT gets lots of press from me (and will get even more with our new "Littles" feature).

    225SqueakyChu
    Edited: Nov 17, 2013, 8:33am Top

    > 222

    can you write up an instruction now that the naming convention seems to have settled?

    I'm deferring to Tim to write up "the rules".
    However, this is what I've been doing most recently:

    LFLs are to be called:
    1st choice: Little Free Library of/at (neighborhood or other name already in popular use by a particular LFL - omit the word "the")
    or
    2nd choice: Little Free Library at (street address)
    or
    3rd choice: Little Free Library at (city - if no street address)

    Official or unofficial BookCrossing zones are to be called:
    1st choice: BookCrossing Zone at (public building, park, etc.)
    or
    2nd choice: BookCrossing Zone at (street address)

    For all BC zones, remove (OBCZ) from the title and put the following line in the description:
    Official BookCrossing Zone (OBCZ)

    Tim, could I have some feedback from you on this. Is this okay? It's not too late for me to edit my entries.

    226qebo
    Nov 17, 2013, 8:58am Top

    222,225: I took a stab at adding instructions to the wiki page. Not ideal long term, but better than having it buried in some random post in this thread. Feel free to correct / elaborate.

    227starfishian
    Nov 17, 2013, 11:17am Top

    > 200, 224

    What about an official LT bookmark? BookMooch had (has?) those, precisely because of the stamp/sticker concern. They would tuck into a book very nicely...

    > 219

    High-five back 'atcha, SqueakyChu!

    228SqueakyChu
    Edited: Nov 17, 2013, 2:43pm Top

    > 27

    What about an official LT bookmark?

    Sorry. Nix on that as well. I make my own origami bookmarks for my LFL visitors.

    229SqueakyChu
    Nov 17, 2013, 3:09pm Top

    > 226

    I took a stab at adding instructions to the wiki page.

    Looks good to me!

    230timspalding
    Edited: Nov 18, 2013, 12:21am Top

    Totally other topic, but people who don't write in books, put stickers in books and etc. need to wake up and smell the coffee. It smells like death. Their death. If our books outlive us, it will not be for long.

    Eat, drink, be merry and write in books, for tomorrow you will die.

    231SqueakyChu
    Nov 18, 2013, 12:32am Top

    Still off topic...

    I write all over my cookbooks (which I keep for myself). However, the books I give to others, I try to keep as pristine as possible.

    I did have a mishap today. I was working at a book sale...and spilled coffee on two of the sale books. Oh, well! :)

    I plan on sticking around for a long time. I did have to crack up over a line from a book I'm reading with lyzard as a tutored read. In Castle of Wolfenbach, there's a line that reads, "Albert, who was likewise far advanced in age, above sixty...". I supposed if I'm really that advanced in age, I might not stick around for as long as I thought I would! I hope I'm still here when the feature we're working on goes live. :)

    232_Zoe_
    Nov 18, 2013, 11:42am Top

    I'm all for writing in books. But there's no need to crack the spine.

    233timspalding
    Nov 18, 2013, 11:59am Top

    I hate spine cracking too. But I mostly blame the publisher. Books should have sturdy spines, and books that are meant for reference need to be bibliographic gymnasts.

    234Collectorator
    Nov 18, 2013, 12:03pm Top

    Tim, will you please help me with 211 and 215? I really just need to know how to find the Locals that I have entered, so I can remove the emails I added.

    235timspalding
    Nov 18, 2013, 12:07pm Top

    Go to this area on your local page, and change it to 25 miles. Also, tell me if I'm right, and it was set to 0.

    http://cl.ly/image/3g2j0k0j023t

    236Collectorator
    Nov 18, 2013, 12:16pm Top

    No, mine is set to 25. But how does that help? There are a bajillion Locals within 25 miles of me.

    I have entered two Locals. One was way up in Argyle, and the other was down in South Texas, iirc.

    237timspalding
    Nov 18, 2013, 12:20pm Top

    Okay, going in as you.

    238qebo
    Nov 18, 2013, 12:21pm Top

    235: I think what Collectorator is looking for, and I’d like too, is a way to get back to the venues that I have entered and feel responsible for (which are not necessarily local to me, and not all local to some other specific place) for editing. http://www.librarything.com/local/helpers shows a list of recently added venues, but with the recent frenzy of LFL and BC venues, mine might be off the list or easily missed. http://www.librarything.com/home#helpers has a link Your Helps, but it goes to the same page.

    239timspalding
    Nov 18, 2013, 12:23pm Top

    So, C, you have one LL 26 miles from you and another 230. You can see them if you change your 25 to 26 or, 250.

    I'll get it so that it doesn't say 0 in these cases.

    >238 qebo:

    Will reply.

    240timspalding
    Nov 18, 2013, 4:09pm Top

    I've added a directory page.

    http://www.librarything.com/local_directory.php

    Unfortunately, it doesn't work for countries yet, and I need to go pick up my son. So it'll be done tonight.

    That page in turn goes to sub-directory pages, and pages showing all the LFLs or BCZs in a given Australian state.

    Tim

    241qebo
    Nov 18, 2013, 5:09pm Top

    240: Nice! And helpful for data entry. A request: could there be an option for alphabetical order by city within state? They seem now to be in entry date order. Both would be useful.

    242timspalding
    Nov 18, 2013, 5:36pm Top

    Oh, good point. Will do later.

    243justjim
    Nov 18, 2013, 6:27pm Top

    That's very handy. Now, I think I missed a bit. Why are we taking out email addresses?

    244qebo
    Edited: Nov 18, 2013, 6:31pm Top

    243: See posts 206-209. Also the wiki page w/ the current consensus on data entry instructions (which anyone can change or argue).

    245SqueakyChu
    Edited: Nov 18, 2013, 7:39pm Top

    Tim, you said that for LFLs, we'll leave the "in Honor of..." or "In Memory of..." in the description box. Does that rule still stand?

    I want to go back to the "BookCrossing Zones" and edit out the word "Zone" from each title of the BookCrossing venues. That information is contained in the description box anyway, and I want my titles to look exactly like the title of the category itself. In addition, I don't want the "title" to ignite a controversy about "official" or unofficial". Do you all agree?

    246qebo
    Nov 18, 2013, 7:40pm Top

    245: I dunno re in honor/memory. I haven't been because they either seem to fall under the category of personal info, or be meaninglessly generic, e.g. "In honor of readers."

    247_Zoe_
    Nov 18, 2013, 7:42pm Top

    >245 SqueakyChu: Hmm. So it would just say "BookCrossing at Place"? I think it sounds a bit weird without a noun.

    248SqueakyChu
    Nov 18, 2013, 7:57pm Top

    > 246

    It was Tim's idea to include those so I started adding them. Now I want to check back about it before we go live. The "in honor of" or "in memory of", in fact, was information submitted to LFL and not necessarily to the public. It's not written on the charter signs.

    > 247

    Simply read it as:
    BookCrossing (understood as "activity" or "venue") at 2134 Mt. Pleasant Drive

    That works for me.

    249SqueakyChu
    Nov 18, 2013, 7:58pm Top

    Vote: Leave "Zone" in the title of BookCrossing venues?

    Current tally: Yes 3, No 1, Undecided 4

    250timspalding
    Edited: Nov 19, 2013, 7:14am Top

    Okay, the directory pages have been improved, and little description sentences about the little little types have been added there, to local pages and venue pages as appropriate.

    See:
    * http://www.librarything.com/local_directory.php?subtype=1
    * http://www.librarything.com/local/littledirectory&subtype=1&country=Unit...
    * http://www.librarything.com/venue/86548/Little-Free-Library-at-24447-N-Dustin-Rd...

    Blog post to come around 10am. I'm hoping we can get a decent-sized megaphone about this today.

    251timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 7:14am Top

    The "find out more" link won't work until I have a blog post.

    252SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:34am Top

    I see a very minor problem which probably needs no "fix" at all.

    Say there is a venue listed that belongs to two types (for instance, my Little Free Library of Twinbrook which is listed under BookCrossing and Little Free Library). If one looks at the list for BookCrossing and sees it there a listing for "Little Free Library of Twinbrook", might they not think it was listed under the wrong "type" (even though the description talks about BookCrossing).

    My question, in a word then, is whether we should just pick one venue type when doing the listing and put the rest of the information in the description?

    I'm not sure.

    253SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:35am Top

    > 249

    I'll leave the word "Zone" in the BookCrossing listing titles.

    254SqueakyChu
    Edited: Nov 19, 2013, 8:39am Top

    I really like the descriptions - especially the one for BookCrossing. I'll help be your megaphone there after the feature is released. :D

    People generally are more excited about Little Free Libraries than they are about BookCrossing! :)

    255qebo
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:43am Top

    252: Though I have an account, I don't really do BookCrossing... But I'd think (a) if it's a BC zone it should be on the BC list, and (b) BC people know that BC zones come in all shapes and sizes.

    256timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:49am Top

    If one looks at the list for BookCrossing and sees it there a listing for "Little Free Library of Twinbrook", might they not think it was listed under the wrong "type" (even though the description talks about BookCrossing).

    Yeah, but they'll see both when they get to: http://cl.ly/image/0t2t3K3Y3a0b

    I'm pretty adamant we may need to have things in two (or more) categories. If this ends up being a problem, I can add something to the directories that marks out those that are ALSO another type.

    People generally are more excited about Little Free Libraries than they are about BookCrossing! :)

    Where? Here?

    257SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:53am Top

    > 255

    Thanks for your response, qebo. That's the way it is now...and the way I'll leave it.

    258SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:54am Top

    > 256

    Where? Here?

    Well, not here...but LFL certainly gets a lot more press than BC ever has had in all the years of its existence.

    259SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:56am Top

    > 255, 256

    If this ends up being a problem, I can add something to the directories that marks out those that are ALSO another type.


    I'm good with that.

    260timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:58am Top

    Well, not here...but LFL certainly gets a lot more press than BC ever has had in all the years of its existence.

    I dunno.

    Honestly, I repeat my previous feeling about these things. I'd love to give people access to my books, and look at others'. But I'm not very interested in setting up a shelf that shifts random stuff in and out, and--by Gresham's law--quickly descends to the most unwanted books, unless I refresh it. I know I don't "get" the project :)

    261SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:59am Top

    Now that this feature is going, live, I have to leave for work. :(

    I can't wait to check back in later tonight.

    Thanks, again, Tim.

    I just love it!

    262SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:59am Top

    > 260

    I know I don't "get" the project :)

    You're right. LOL!

    263timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:59am Top

    I'm mentioning your big agency in this, btw, in the blog announcement. I presume you don't mind.

    264timspalding
    Edited: Nov 19, 2013, 9:03am Top

    >262 SqueakyChu:

    Maybe I should make a new LibraryThing, where instead of cataloging your books, you get to catalog 20 of your books, and crappy books are swapped in and our of it for no good reason.

    265timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:04am Top

    I'm going to call my project "Little Unfree Libraries."

    266_Zoe_
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:06am Top

    >260 timspalding: Yeah, I think that if you can't stand the idea of "refreshing" it—potentially giving out more than you get back—then it's just not for you.

    That's also part of the reason it's so newsworthy: people are focused on sharing books, doing something good for their communities, without worrying about whether they get anything back.

    And when that happens, they often *do* actually find that other people are willing to be generous too. I know SqueakyChu gets all sorts of great books left in her library, often books that are brand new and popular.

    So, yeah. You take a leap of faith, do something generous, and see what comes of it. Giving without expectations often inspires others to do the same.

    267timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:08am Top

    >266 _Zoe_:

    I'm all in favor of generous. I give books out like candy to people I know even casually. It's the part where I don't get to pick the books I give out that irritates me.

    It seems to me there's nothing wrong with my model. And if there is, all the OTHER little libraries out there--social justice centers, breastfeed centers, churches, synagogues, etc. etc.--are doing it wrong.

    268timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:08am Top

    Do people mind if I take this thread public—that is, move it somewhere it can be seen?

    269SqueakyChu
    Edited: Nov 19, 2013, 9:33am Top

    > 263

    I presume you don't mind.

    That is w-a-y cool. I always complain that no one can find it. :)

    I'm leaving. Talk to you all later. Can't be late for work. The boss will never understand. :D

    ETA: Public thread? Okay with me.

    270lorax
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:39am Top

    254>

    People generally are more excited about Little Free Libraries than they are about BookCrossing! :)

    For me personally:

    I like the "take a book / leave a book" mentality of LFL much better than the "YOU MUST PASS THIS BOOK ON" mentality of BC. I don't like the idea of needing to register or check in a book. And I hate with a fiery passion the defacement of books with giant BookCrossing stickers (which I suppose helps encourage people not to get attached to the book, and pass it on.) Basically they seem more laid-back - and I realize these aspects of BC aren't actually mandatory - certainly nobody's going to come to your house and take the book away - but it just seems more regimented than "Here are some books!" Yeah, LFL might descend into crappiness, but there are a lot of people who will pass books along anyway, and this seems like a neat way to do so - and even if I set one up in front of my house (which I'd never do, not if it will end up with my real name and address attached for the world to see) I wouldn't think of it as "mine", and wouldn't feel that a bunch of crummy books reflect poorly on me. (If anything they'd encourage me to re-seed it - for a while there were a few books that I just bought used whenever I saw them, and pressed them on people, and I'd probably do that here.)

    271_Zoe_
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:46am Top

    >267 timspalding: Hmm. You said in #24 that you'd want your books to be returned. If that weren't the case, I think it would be pretty easy to find a balance: let people take books and put in other ones. Some of the books that get put in will be good, and other people will take them. Some of the books that get put in will be crap, and you can just get rid of those and replace them with other books of your choice. Some people will take books without leaving any at all, and again, you can replace them with books of your choice. I think you'd have plenty of opportunity to pick books.

    Anyway, you could certainly try your model and see how it works.

    >268 timspalding: Yeah, take it public. But I think this process has been remarkably effective within this group, and you should make more use of the group in the future.

    272lorax
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:59am Top

    267>

    I'm all in favor of generous. I give books out like candy to people I know even casually. It's the part where I don't get to pick the books I give out that irritates me.

    And that's fine - I think the disconnect, then, is whether or not people consider an LFL that they started to still be "theirs" (in which case you'd want to continue to curate the offerings, presumably removing the "trash" and donating it to Goodwill or something and restocking with better books) or a community resource. I think either would work, though obviously a curated collection would be more work.

    273Nicole_VanK
    Nov 19, 2013, 10:08am Top

    >268 timspalding:: No problem with me.

    I haven't been very active for a couple of days since I'm having the decorators in. But I'll be 'back on the job' the day after tomorrow.

    274Keeline
    Nov 19, 2013, 10:20am Top

    #260 by timspalding>

    Honestly, I repeat my previous feeling about these things. I'd love to give people access to my books, and look at others'. But I'm not very interested in setting up a shelf that shifts random stuff in and out, and--by Gresham's law--quickly descends to the most unwanted books, unless I refresh it. I know I don't "get" the project :)

    Interesting. I've not heard of Gresham's law before this and I read through the Wikipedia entry to see how an economic theory of sorts would apply to books. My interpretation is that the "give a book, take a book" policy causes people to give a book they don't want (anymore) in exchange for a book they do want. If tastes are similar and the users are particularly jaded (by getting any old books as cheaply and unwanted as possible) to trade for the books they do want, the overall value or quality of the LFL shelf will suffer. However, it seems to me that the whole point is to put books out there and you have to expect that they will all go away, like a donation.

    In the used book trade we look for books our clients want. This can mean going wherever books are sold. This includes library sales and thrift stores. However, thrift store selections are often very bad and filled with undesirable books from a resale standpoint. They are usually:

    * National Geographic magazines
    * Readers' Digest Condensed novels
    * Book club editions
    * Low-demand religious books

    A working theory we had was that a given venue had room for a finite number of books (say 1,000 for discussion). Of these 10% at the beginning were "good" books. Those went out quickly, leaving room for 100 books to be added to the shelves. Of those, the same 10% were "good", selling 10. The next cycle would have only 1 "good" book of the 10. One tends to be left with an entire stock that is material that is largely unwanted and stays there and can be observed with each repeat visit over several months.

    What breaks this cycle is finding ways to "refresh" the stock. Large periodic (often annual) library sales are successful because they try to get rid of all of the books and collect fresh donations. These sales tend to attract more interest than a library with an ongoing "store".

    If I were going to engage in an LFL, it would be with the expectation that the entire stock could be taken and replaced with nothing or nothing I'd care to have there. It would be an interesting craft project, and if I refresh it, I can put books I "like" out there in the world as a form of evangelism.

    However, I would not do it in our present neighborhood since we live on a feeder street for a high school and mischief would supersede the intended purpose.

    I expect that all of these issues have been raised before in forums more specific to LFL and similar projects.

    James

    275qebo
    Nov 19, 2013, 10:26am Top

    268: Do people mind if I take this thread public—that is, move it somewhere it can be seen?
    OK with me. I don't consider this group truly private (which is fine).

    276_Zoe_
    Nov 19, 2013, 10:27am Top

    forums more specific to LFL

    That reminds me—is there an LT LFL group yet? SqueakyChu? I think it would be a very useful resource, especially now that LT is actively promoting LFLs.

    277timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 11:04am Top

    I'd be in favor of such a group, but we need to have critical mass. Less-than-critical mass never works.

    278timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 11:05am Top

    We are now live:

    Blog post: http://www.librarything.com/blogs/librarything/2013/11/littlelibraries/
    Talk topic: http://www.librarything.com/topic/161222

    PLEASE CONTINUE CONVERSATION OVER THERE, OR ON OTHER APPROPRIATE TOPICS.

    279SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:24pm Top

    > 270

    lorax,

    I would say that the most fun I get out of BookCrossing is being able to track books that I share. I do this with a very minimum of "defacement". My books only have a label inside the front cover which contains a BookCrossing ID number and information for how to log onto their website.

    Other Bookcrossers do write, stamp, and paste labels all over their books. The books belong to those individuals so I don't see any problem with that.

    I also very much enjoy monthly meetings of my local BookCrossing group (BC in DC). We (a very small group of all ages) get together to chat, exchange books, work book festivals where we give away hundreds (and often over 1,000) free books, and enjoy an annual holiday party together.

    280SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:36pm Top

    > 272

    lorax,

    The LFL book collections are supposed to be curated, but in my experience, I never did have to "curate" anything. Not all books are to my taste, but there is something for everyone. I have never taken out any donated book yet, and I've been doing this since July. I do remove books after one month if they are not selected by visitors and move them either to other Little Free Libraries or to my fellow Bookcrossers who move them along to other readers. WE value each and every book.

    Here's a list of books currently on the shelf (except not those donated today as I haven't logged them in yet) of the Little Free Library of Twinbrook All of the books with an entry date of more than one month have been removed. Book that have been taken and not journaled appear still to be on the bookshelf but may not be.

    My LFL can hold about 25 to 50 books, depending on their size.

    281SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:47pm Top

    > 274

    In the used book trade we look for books our clients want.

    I encourage visitors to the LFL to write in the Guest Book any wishlisted books. If I can find them, I'll try to get them.

    In the used book trade we look for books our clients want.

    My source of books is friends, neighbors, Bookcrossers, used book sales, Little Free Library.org, and The BookThing of Baltimore. I have never run out of a source for gently used books. I generally go more after the free books and have been most successful in this endeavor.

    undesirable books

    I have not had any of the one you listed in my LFL and would probably pull those out if they appeared.

    stays there and can be observed with each repeat visit over several months.

    No books "vegetate" in my LFL. If a book isn't chosen, it is moved out after one month.

    The only "mischief" I've encountered since I began this project in July of this year was on Halloween night. Of course! Someone took a cup that held bookmarks (they left the bookmarks!) and my Guest Book. Next Halloween, I'll be a bit more cautious.

    forums more specific to LFL

    I have not yet found forums specific to LFL - a pet peeve of mine!

    282SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:48pm Top

    > 276

    That reminds me—is there an LT LFL group yet? SqueakyChu? I think it would be a very useful resource, especially now that LT is actively promoting LFLs.

    Zoe, I'm not taking on another project!! Someone else has to do that!!!!!!!!!!!!

    283timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 8:54pm Top

    284SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:04pm Top

    :)

    285timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:07pm Top

    If we get a bunch of LFLs on LibraryThing, great. If not, fine.

    I'm still waiting to see if LFLs pays this any mind. I suspect they will ignore it.

    286_Zoe_
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:13pm Top

    >285 timspalding: Even if no one else joins in, I suspect that the few people actively working on it now will have all the US LFLs done in two weeks. And I mean that literally.

    287timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:14pm Top

    Snort. Yeah, maybe so. I'm going to pick some off later too.

    I totally want an Unfree Library.

    288qebo
    Edited: Nov 19, 2013, 9:31pm Top

    215 (Collectorator): Now I need to know how to find the Locals I have entered.

    Profile > Stats/Memes > LibraryThing Local gets you to http://www.librarything.com/profile/yourname/stats/local with a list of venues entered.

    286: I suspect that the few people actively working on it now will have all the US LFLs done in two weeks. And I mean that literally.

    Yeah, I'm still working on them. Didn't do many today because I have a job...

    289timspalding
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:46pm Top

    Profile > Stats/Memes > LibraryThing Local gets you to http://www.librarything.com/profile/yourname/stats/local with a list of venues entered.

    Thanks.

    290qebo
    Nov 19, 2013, 9:46pm Top

    270: even if I set one up in front of my house (which I'd never do, not if it will end up with my real name and address attached for the world to see)
    Some are set up under the name of an organization, in a park or in front of a store or some such. You could set up a LFL and not make it official, which might work in a pedestrian-dense neighborhood, but someone might “help” by putting it on a map.

    282: Someone else has to do that!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I might, but not until I have my own up and running, estimate mid December.

    291SqueakyChu
    Nov 19, 2013, 10:15pm Top

    > 282


    I might, but not until I have my own up and running, estimate mid December.


    I'll wait! :)

    I thought this LFL/BC feature would get more of a public response. It's a tough time of the year for LFLs since it's gotten very cold and windy where I live. Not the most fun time to visit LFLs.

    ...and yet, when I got home from work tonight, fourteen more books had been added to my LFL in my absence! Some of these were BookCrossing-registered so I know from whom they came.

    292Nicole_VanK
    Edited: Nov 19, 2013, 11:06pm Top

    > 288: Thanks. I never knew that was in stats too. Neat.

    293Collectorator
    Nov 19, 2013, 11:33pm Top

    288, thank you, qebo!

    I don't know why that couldn't have been the answer in message 235 and all that followed...

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