I'm pretty close with a Catholic School Principal in a slightly rural midwestern city. She recently had an incident where the priest at her parish along with some parents went through her school library and removed all the Harry Potter books and essentially any YA fantasy that dealt with witchcraft or magic (they gratefully left Tolkein and Lewis). They confessed to never having read the books but felt that the subject matter was encouraging kids toward the occult. (Supposedly they also removed non-fiction books dealing with UFOs, Salem Witch Trials, etc.)

I feel like this is a huge disservice to the school and the students. Without being disrespectful to the church or the Catholic faith, how would you argue that this is wrong or right?

No one should ban children from reading anything they haven't read first. HP embraces all that is good and punishes that which is evil.

My response to parents with this kind of mindset: You are perfectly within your rights to decide what your child can and cannot read. In fact, I encourage you to do so! Know what they're reading! Talk to them about what they read! Read some of their books, and enjoy the discussion that follows! And, yes, if you see something there that you don't want them to read, you can tell them not to read it -- you can take it away from them. That's called "being a responsible parent." But you may not decide what other people's children can and cannot read. There are probably some parents at that school who like Harry Potter and fantasy in general, and who would like those books to be available to their children.

Of course, the priest's involvement is another issue. If I were the school librarian or principal, I would challenge him to read the first Harry Potter book, and list his objections after he reads it. I would probably also ask him to read something from a Christian perspective, such as Looking for God in Harry Potter or God, the Devil, and Harry Potter -- there are a lot of books out there that are written by Christians of one stripe or another that can put some of these worries to rest.

I've found that censorship often stems from ignorance, and if you can get the person who's objecting to the book to actually read the entire work, then you can have an actual discussion with them as to what they don't like about it, and why they feel it should be removed, keeping in mind that there are probably parents out there who don't feel the same way. I know a lot of Christians who love Harry Potter, who read it together and discuss it. I know others who think it's a little questionable, and don't allow their children to read it. I'm okay with both of those responses. I'm not okay with censorship.

There's potentially a legal aspect, too. What did they do with the books?

I would also suggest that there's a chain of command. Even the Catholic Church has rules. One can't just take matters into one's own hands. It's one thing to refuse to participate; it's another to force one's own prejudices upon others. (Unless one is the Pope, of course.)

#1 Back to your original post I think that it is a tricky issue because a Catholic School Principal may be trumped by the parrish priest depending on how the school structure is arranged. If there is a school board it may be that the decision can be appealed.

I do know that there have been articles written by ardent Catholics that support the Harry Potter series and no doubt there are Catholic dissenters.

Tolkien was Catholic and Lewis a major Christian apologist so it is not surprising that he left their works.

If the prinicpal is looking at wanting to reintroduce the books I think she/ he might want to get some of the positive article and then approach it from the standpoint of these is in the popular culture, my students have read these books , pulling the books doesn't help but using the books as a platform for discussion of right and wrong does help and does fit within a Catholic curriculum.

It may also be that the priest was under either diocesean pressure or pressure from various church members to remove the books.

There is a long history of Catholic intellectuals as well as a history of Catholic supression of certain authors (such as Gallileo) it is the intellectual tradition that needs to be appealed to in this case. I think that is the method that will prompt the most discussion and lessen the chances the priest will become contrary and shut down all discussion.

It is disconcerting if the history books are being removed as well.

Maybe the safest way of applying pressure on the priest is through the congregation. Is there any way that the principal could bring this matter up with his congregation in some kind of organized fashion so that they may pass their sentiments on to the priest?

Oh, and particularly disturbing is the removal of non-fiction books on the Salem witch trials. I think that's even more serious than the banning of Harry Potter. That's definitely one of the books that needs to be mentioned when expressing disatisfaction over these actions. If a church feels threatened by historical facts, it must feel insecure about its sway over its congregation.

People are scared of that which they do not fully understand. Thus, this is less about who is right and wrong and more about trying to have a fruitful and open discussion with people who are obviously closed-minded. Reading teaches us to be open to perspectives that we would not otherwise consider on our own. Thus, as true lovers of knowledge and individuals engaged in dialogue, it is our purpose to try and open the minds of parents. Try and get them to see that Harry Potter is not just about 'evil magic and witchcraft', try and get them to look at the conflict of good and evil that resides within the book, try and get them to identify with the book. We must seek out their perspective and try and identify with them.

Harry Potter is the embodiment of imagination, it symbolizes the power that imagination plays in our life. It speaks to our humanity and about the imaginative possibility of human relationships in general.

I think that creating a right or wrong dichotomy only puts people on the defensive, which in turn will cause them to vehemently resist. Do not approach people with you are wrong and I am right. Approach people with Harry Potter represents the goodness of humanity and I'll show you how. People will be a lot more receptive to this approach. First, pacify their fears by trying to reach a common ground and then try to understand their apprehension beyond this.

Wow - really great input here. Thanks to everyone who's commented so far and please keep the dialog going. There is so much involved in this issue (the book removal was done without permission of librarian or principal; some of the books taken out had been donated by parents at the school; when is it okay to censor historical information; etc) that I feel like I've only scratched the surface in talking about it.

Another friend mentioned to me too that the school library where she teaches was not going to carry copies of Deathly Hallows. People had questioned the appropriateness of having it at a K-5 school because of the bad language (and probably violence too). It wasn't really a big deal though because she said that most of the families who wanted their kids to read it had most likely already bought it or had access through a public library.

I get so annoyed when people ban books from school.

I guess it's from being a teenager.

I just feel that if you haven't read it, don't make other people lose out on something you that had a great opportunity on.

A lot of things have changed since god cursed witch craft. Since then things have changed and I say don't knock it till you try it.

I would disagree with the removal of the HP books from that school library. To bore you all with my "credentials": I have a Master of Divinity from a presbyterian seminary (but one not affiliated with a specific denomination), it is strongly reformed/calvinistic, holds a high view of the Bible as "Scripture" and an authoritative guide for faith & life (as do I)...

So, I would point out that the magic-capable world of Harry is not directly opposed to or at odds with being a Christian. It is fiction and doesn't attempt to pass it self off as anything other than fiction. I would say that the priest at mentioned school was inconsistent, why allow Tolkien & Lewis in a library where Harry is banned? This is totally reactionary, and unnecessary.

Despite the "dark" tone of the plot as it progresses through the 7 books, and the "dark" tone of the final confrontation in Deathly Hallows, the series scrupulously avoids any mention of Satan, any association with Satanism! That is a very important point for all to consider. Voldemort's wickedness (evil philosophy) is squarely along the lines of Hitler Nazi style racism and what we now call ethnic cleansing.

Message edited by its author, Aug 21, 2007, 8:09pm.

It's a complete violation of the First Amendment. It's effing b.s.

#11 -- You might be able to make that argument stick in a public institution, but in a private school, it gets a lot trickier. Don't get me wrong, I'm completely against censorship (see my earlier post), but the First Amendment argument probably wouldn't hold water in this case.

I'll have to get back to you all with some actual constructive contributions. However, I just thought I'd say that I'm sick and fucking tired of people forcing their views on others. I've got no problem with people having different views than I do, but what gives them the right to dictate to others what they believe? The church might have a case if the HP books claimed to be nonfiction, or based in reality, but they make no such claim, they are blatant fiction. Plus, if you actually bother reading them, the philosophy of the books is actually very Christian. If anything, the series is something Christians should be encouraging their kids to read, not trying to ban.

#11 I completely agree on it being BS

My opinion is that the more people ban something the more appeal it has, especially something that everyone in the world seems to be talking about. I used to have a friend whose parents were super strict about entertainment and life in general and both girls kinda went hog wild as soon as they reached an age where they could rebel and made some truly horrible decisions based on the need to rebel. IT was quite sad actually.

I happen to think American Psycho, A Clockwork Orange and Fight Club are all very well written and very provocative books. Yet I certainly wouldn't want anyone under 16 or perhaps even 17 to get their hands on them; each is quite disturbing in its own way. Yet, the naivete here may be all my own, given the popularity of Quake/Doom type video games. If kids can get their hands on those relatively easily, why should they not be allowed to read about a character like Patrick Batemen or Alex?

I realize those are some extreme examples. As far as banning Harry Potter books, I'm mystified. I think you could make a case for an anti-Christian bias in Philip Pullman 's books, but I don't see where it comes in in the HP series, anymore than it would in any other fantasy series. Very odd.

it is exactly that kind of ignorance with leads to witchburnings and fear of graveyards

(kind of off topic but leading off of gmork's post)

>16

How would you deal with controlling access teenagers have to the books you mentioned?

I remember back when I was in high school (which I believe I entered at 14) I could get anything I wanted from violent movies, to pornography, to alcohol, drugs etc. Extremely easily and I doubt my parents or teachers were any the wiser (or rather, knew the extent of it).

My general take is that I'd rather my child read American Psycho or Fight Club than watch the movies. Censoring books seems kind of pointless to me in the culture we live in. At least when you read Lolita, you're reading.

Something here that nobody has mentioned is that these anti-HP folks seem to have not a SINGLE example of any Christian teen actually practicing witchcraft as a direct result of HP. If they leave the church just because of that book, they would have done it anyway!

Oh gosh, this makes me depressed.

I've used a lot of HP forums in the last twelve months, including a stint of regular posts on the Leaky Cauldron forum, and - unsurprisingly - this topic comes up again and again. I've also been a regular poster on a religion forum for just over a year, and at times the topic is scarcely less popular there.

To my mind, it's utterly wrong that anyone should presume to *ban* these books - especially at a library or school - without having read them first. When I was younger, my mother (who actively encouraged reading) took the care and time to buy books, and present them to me once she'd personally vetted them, if ever she was in doubt over their suitability. Many a great fantasy book, including The Dark Portal by Robin Jarvis and Philip Pullman's Northern Lights went through this process, and were duly handed over to me. I don't see how hard it would be for parents to do the same thing for their children now.

I should add that I'm a committed Christian, and a Sunday School teacher of a class of 3-16 year olds who love Harry Potter. In recent years, our annual summer trips have coincided (inadvertently) with the publication dates of Half-Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows, and so we have had something of a reading party on the beach, with kids and adults alike getting stuck into their new copies.

The funny thing is, I don't think we're that unusual a church, in this respect. It just seems that the "Harry is evil" brigade have the louder voices.

#20 -- "It just seems that the "Harry is evil" brigade have the louder voices."

I'd say that's absolutely true. It depresses me, too -- I really dislike being judged on my religion based on people's perceptions of the extreme 1%, and it happens frequently, in more areas than this. (Sorry if that statement seems offensive to anyone; it was certainly not my intent. I realize this is a touchy issue.)

#21

I don't think that is offensive, foggidawn; it's a fact that prejudice is a part of every day life for a lot of people, and you have as much freedom to point out the areas in which you feel prejudiced against, as much as the next person.

May I ask you religion? I would guess Christian, given your obvious empathy over the specific topic at hand, but I know that the stereotyping Christians are subject to is pretty insignificant when compared to the stereotyping that - say - Muslims have to put up with.. so I don't wish to assume anything :)

SPOILER!

Not sure if there's a thread for it anywhere (I couldn't see one) but I was pretty interested in the Christian themes in Deathly Hallows. Although I noticed some things as I read it the first time, I was a bit sceptical of other things I had pointed out to me because I didn't - and still don't - want to start claiming this book is a "Christian" piece of literature; it would be disingenuous to do so, and would also go against a lot of the series' themes about the importance of breaking down barriers between different sectors.

But the verses on the gravestones - for example - were clearly Christian, being from the Bible. And Harry laying down his life, without retaliation, to save his friends, is a plausible Christ-metaphor. The repeated symbolism of crosses ("King's Cross"; the cross Harry carves on the tree where he buries Moody's eye; the reference to Gryffindor's sword looking like a "silver cross" etc) was interesting, and there were also some references I was less certain were intentional (e.g. Ron as a prodigal son figure, etc).

Please note, I don't say this to try - in any way - to claim the book as a Christian work. I am well aware that the series probably owes more to Greek mythology than any other religion (ancient or otherwise). I simply think it's incredibly ironic that certain Christians are trying to ban the series, despite it's inclusion of some very Christian themes and direct references.

Message edited by its author, Sep 5, 2007, 7:45am.

#22 - well said ellenmarie. I agree with your assertion to not "claim the book as a Christian work" but at the same time there's nothing wrong with claiming the allegory within it. One of the strengths of the Christian faith is versatility to find Truth where ever you see it. I would hope that no one would take offense at your comments any more than if someone pointed out that Fluffy was an homage to Cerberus.

#21 - FD, assuming you are talking about being Christian I agree that it's a rough term to use because people sadly associate a hypocritical right-wing stereotype with the word. I find myself using the phrase "post-modern Christ follower" to best articulate my faith.

And as has been touched on a number of times, I think the whole issue echoes more of problems with parenting than religion.

Hello, I'm new to this group. I also happen to be a Catholic homeschooler and an HP fan. A Catholic homeschooling message board had discussed Harry Potter extensively and I was given some insight on both sides of the issue. I hope I can clarify some things for you.

First of all, the parish priest does have the final word on any decisions regarding the Catholic school affiliated with his church. That's just the way it is. He is the spiritual leader of his community.

Unfortunately, there have been negative reports by Catholic leaders regarding the HP series. I haven't personally read or seen any, so I can only say that this has influenced some Catholics to choose not to read the books.

Personally, I see censorship in general as a lack of true faith. My feeling, and I mean no offense to anyone, is that if you are so afraid of reading or viewing things outside of your religion, it shows a great lack of faith in your beliefs. I don't mind listening to Jehovah's witnesses, making friends with those of other faiths (or no faith), or reading about other religions because I know it will not shake my Catholicism. I find peace in my religion. I also find my religion in everything I read, whether someone tells me I was supposed to notice a Christian message or not.

There will always be those who shield themselves from the occult or anything they perceive as occult. Some with good reason. But if your child is so impressionable to take something like Harry Potter seriously, you have other issues to consider.

My only concern when my son, then 10, showed interest in reading the series was the issue of death. He doesn't deal well with death. We decided it was best to tell him who would die in each book to try to soften the blow. That was part of my job as a mom. We know our kids best and know when they are ready to deal with such things.

Sorry, I'm a bit long winded when I write. I am enjoying your group (neat games).

Hi juggling - welcome to the group and thanks so much for your input. I think you have a really healthy view of religion, faith, censorship and parenting. No apologies needed for the long comment as all you had to say was insightful and helpful!

#25 "I think you have a really healthy view of religion, faith, censorship and parenting."

I'll second that :)

Very nicely put!

Gee, you're all making me blush!
I just do the best I can, and try to laugh often. Luckily, I have children AND cats...

#24 very well put! Hurrah for intelligence!!

I'm just pleased that this group can have a considerate and well considered conversation about a topic that makes most people dig in and not listen to each other.

That does seem to be the whole point - listening. It seems to be a lost art. I listen out of curiosity. I like to understand how others are thinking. My philosophical side coming out, I think.
I do not appreciate people arguing without researching the opposing side. A good debater should be able to handle pro or con. In the case of HP, too many people have an opinion without even cracking the book open. If someone complains about the spells in HP, I already know they either a)didn't read the book, or b)they don't understand Latin, which was used to create most of the magic words in the series. (Sorry kids, there's no Easter bunny either.) JK Rowling's series is so rich I could read her books several times without catching all the little nuances she's thrown in.

#30 Haha! It's funny you mention the "spells" argument.. I was told by a Christian friend that she refuses to let her daughter read the books because the spells are named after "demons in the Bible". Now, much as I like this friend, that remark displayed simultaneously an acceptance that Christian propaganda (which, sadly, does exist) is automatically "truth", a poor understanding of Latin, and an ignorance of the content of the Bible and/or the HP books.

I treated her to a crash course in the Latin used in the books (which I find fascinating, to say the least)... and she *still* refuses to let her daughter read the books. At least she's a bit better-informed now though.

Edit to fix typo ^_^

Message edited by its author, Sep 10, 2007, 9:42pm.

#31 *sigh* Logic! Why don't they teach logic anymore? Thank you for being her friend. She needs you. Keep being a voice of reason. The truth is out there. If her daughter wants to read it, I'm sure she'll find a way. It's unfortunate that she won't be able to share it with her mom.

*awards 10 points to her own house -- Ravenclaw -- for being able to identify the quote from the Professor in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe in post #32*

/moment of sheer geekdom

On a related topic the New York Times today had an article on how prision chaplains are being instructed to remove religious works because the government has said they don't want prisions to become a breeding ground for religious extremism. It seems excessive to deny the study of any religious text to individuals in prision or elsewhere. It is a mad world at the moment.

#33 foggi:
LOL. :)

#34 - That's really upsetting. If you think about 12-steps or any other recovery/healing based program there is almost always a reference to a higher power. I'm not going to preach any specific way or religion but to deny people that are most in need of turning their lives around access to the hope and comfort found in spirituality (i.e. recognizing something in the universe larger than oneself) seems like a really cruel thing.

I agree el- it seems like prison is a place especially in need of religious materials.

The article said they weren't removing all works but they had selected certain experts to come up with approved lists which seems just as bad. They were equal opportunity offenders though removing Jewish, Islamic and Christian texts (both Protestant and Catholic)- but again who decides what stays. Someone who got a look at the Christian list said Evangelical Christianity and Calvinism were strongly represented but early church fathers removed. All around a bad idea- there are several lawsuits pending though.

What about Buddhism? Did they censor anything by the Dalai Lama? You know what an upstart he is. ;o)

I don't know if there is an easy answer to this, prison seems to be its own subculture. Can someone link me to the article or tell me what day it was in the paper?

Here Juggling

It was today's NYT if the link doesn't work go to the website and it is today's most emailed article. they didn't mention Buddhism in the article. Although on that note China just passed a law saying no Lama can reincarnate in China without government permission.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/10/us/10p...

*edited for typos and trying to fix the link

Message edited by its author, Sep 10, 2007, 4:51pm.

Presumptuous of China. The Dalai Lama is worldly now, he could reincarnate anywhere. There's just no controlling these things...

Random thoughts on the prison article:
Happily, it doesn't look like they banned Harry Potter.

I laughed at the name "Standardized Chapel Library Project." Is this part of the No Prisoner Left Behind act? From my experience seeing what happens when government interferes with education, I must agree that the prison chaplains were probably better able to decide what books to put on the shelves.

Maybe they should have first banned books in the prison law library. That way the prisoners would not have known they had any recourse when their First Amendment rights were violated.

This seems like a simple case of government bureaucrats trying to prove they are doing something about terrorist threats to placate the constituency. Oh! Looky here! It's almost time for primaries. What a coincidence!

#32 Heh, thanks :)

Well.. the good news is - the daughter in question is a bit too young to read them at the moment, so I've got a good few years in which to persuade my friend how good those books are!

Mad about the prison/religion thing, though :S Does that include religious texts someone might have themselves, in their cell, or just texts from the prison library?

This is on old thread, but it seems that the Vatican actually came out with a statement earlier this summer when the Half Blood Prince movie premiered which basically said that HP was an example of good vs. evil and that sometimes sacrifice is necessary for good to triumph. Seems to me the Pope ought to be able to trump a parish priest. If anyone can locate the news links for this please feel free.

I found an NPR link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...

Keep in mind that this is a fairly recent turnaround by the pope. When this thread was started the Catholic Church's official position was that HP was a bad thing.

What? A sensible free thinking Pope! What a novel idea!

I find the whole situation out of control, the world is attempting to control everything that we may obtain. Schools, government, parents... they all worry too much about our "fragile minds" and the effects that things can have on us. How can our children... those who will lead our country every generation... ever possibly hope to create a broad minded view of things if they are smothered completely? I don't believe that violent video games, books, and movies create violent kids... their actions and childhood experiences do. Killer analysis has shown that those who kill all share one of these characteristics.... childhood abuse, mental illness, and/or injury/ incredibly painful loss. Although some of them watched/read/played violent things, it was hardly the cause.

I stand by the statement that the Offspring have "If it offends you, just don't listen." I think that applies to all of the things that people try to censor and hide. Someone personally does not have to read something that they don't like, so why bother ruining it for others? People need to realize that we are not all of the same religion, sex, race, etc... and that as soon as they realize this, they will understand their small- mindedness.

Reading is a culture... a way to reach into someone's mind and learn something new, whether it be about the author, the subject of the book, or another country/culture/religion, etc. Reading should be embraced, especially since we have such a low literacy rate (I'm talking levels, not exactly how many are literate). Why would I wish to deny a person the enjoyment of something that could profoundly change their world?! #16 said that s/he wouldn't want a teenager or child to read those books, but I think they should. They cannot be guarded from the ways that life can be, children need exposure to things and I believe that a book is a better way to find that out rather than through personal experience.

Message edited by its author, Sep 26, 2009, 9:28pm.