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HP & the PS/SS Chapters 9-12

Hogwarts Express

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1littlegeek
Sep 10, 2007, 10:39am Top

Why wait for polly....I've done my homework.

Did anyone else notice that in 2 separate incidents Harry & co were running from Filch and end up in a very important room. (They find Fluffy and later Harry finds Mirror of Erised.)

I'll have more later.

2foggidawn
Sep 10, 2007, 10:59am Top

Ooh, I'm so glad you started this thread! I love these chapters; this is the part of the book where things really start happening!

Okay, some thoughts:

It really struck me, this time through, how long it took for the friendship with Hermione to develop. Of all the characters in the series, I think I'm most like Hermione, in more ways than just the hair. ;-) The perfectionist tendencies, for one -- if I had been accepted to Hogwarts, I'm sure I would have seen death as preferable to expulsion, too. (I must admit to liking Ron's line in the movie, even though it deviates from the book: "She really needs to work on her priorities!")

I thought it was interesting that the first "adventure" -- sneaking out for the 'duel' with Malfoy -- involved Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville, even though they weren't all particularly "friends" at the time. In a conversation with a RL friend this morning, we were talking about Harry's friendships, and how he constantly chose people who were not popular or even always socially acceptable -- Ron, because his family was poor (and "blood traitors," later), Hermione because she was Muggle-born, Neville because he was not a very powerful wizard (at least at first), Luna because she was nuts. . . . Harry could have had his pick of friends, though he didn't know it at first -- but even later, he sticks with his friends. Love and loyalty are such major themes that I thought I'd mention it.

And speaking of love and loyalty (here she goes again, you're thinking, her favoritest subject . . .) we have the first example, at the Quidditch game, of Snape protecting Harry (though we don't know it at the time -- quite the opposite, in fact). Snape really seems to distinguish between protecting Harry from danger, and protecting him from unpleasantness; he sees absolutely no need for the latter, but when there's something seriously threatening Harry, he's there. I think that one of the (many) things about Harry that infuriates Snape is Harry's ability to get himself into life-threatening situations -- three situations in these four chapters, if I'm counting correctly. Note also that Snape was right there for the troll incident, too.

The other thing, which is a bit of a BOOK 7 SPOILER, is the tiny details that tie in so perfectly. I mean, who would think that the fact Harry caught that snitch in his mouth would have so much significance later on?

And, parting thought, Peeves is great. "Shan't say nothing if you don't say 'please'!" I love that!

3littlegeek
Sep 10, 2007, 11:25am Top

I've always thought of Harry championing the less popular as a subtle reference to Christ, who hung out with lepers and prostitutes, etc. I have always found it strange that there weren't more "hangers on" trying to attach themselves to Harry because of his reputation.

Many, many things in this book parallel book 7, especially the Snape/Harry connection. Love how she pulls this off.

I never noticed before that the Weasley twins shoot Quirrell's turban with water! Could easily have exposed You Know Who!

4Marensr
Sep 10, 2007, 11:59am Top

I think that Harry identifies with outsiders because he himself was an outsider for the first 11 years of his life. He never forgets that and doesn't wear the mantle of "boy who lived" easily.

I also think Harry does get some people who try and hang on. Younger students and girls in some of the later books. But those are also complicated in later books by fears about Harry's abilities or sanity- but I am jumping ahead.

I found myself wondering why Snape was so angry that Harry saw his injured leg- it is because he is vulnerable at that moment, I don't think he knows Harry is on to the secret location, is it just general dislike of Harry? The "get out!" seems extreme.

Foggi, I too liked how the friendship with Hermione was not immediatem, it also captures better the uncertainty of boys that age of being friends with girls.

5foggidawn
Edited: Sep 10, 2007, 12:15pm Top

#4 -- It's always interesting to look at the moments when Snape looses his cool -- or what one of my friends referred to as his "white-knuckled control" over his emotions. I think that, in the scene where Harry sees his injured leg, it's vulnerability, coupled with the physical pain (changing bandages -- ouch).

6littlegeek
Sep 10, 2007, 12:50pm Top

Snape is Harry's teacher, he doesn't want to appear vulnerable or comical to him because he rules his classes via fear. Plus it's Harry.

Also, no Madame Pomfrey dressing the wounds, it's Filch. Was she brought in later?

7littlegeek
Sep 10, 2007, 2:26pm Top

More of my notes:

1. Hermione & Ron start out hating each other in true Hollywood fashion. But this is more realistic in an 11-year-old than in an adult. Harry tells them both to shut up in chpt 9--everything was the same from the beginning!

2. I love the way Emma delivers the line "or worse---expelled." in the movie.

3. Quirrell strikes me as a great characterization of the hopelessly incompetent teacher. I believe we've all had one of those. One of the great things about these books is how well they evoke basic childhood experiences, and how age appropriate it all is.

4. Hagrid is always so convenient for moving along the plot by giving away clues.

5. If Nicholas Flamel is Dumbledore's partner, why is there no mention of him in Important Modern Magical Discoveries and the other books mentioned? The delay the kids have in figuring out who he is seems a bit contrived to me.

6. We always hear about what presents Harry gets, but he never gives any. Does he? He can certainly afford it.

7. Did we ever find out why DD has the invisibility cloak?

8. I'll knit Dumbledore some sox.

8Kerian
Sep 10, 2007, 2:58pm Top

#2 foggi:
It's not just the hair? ;)

#7 littlegeek:
2. Me, too. :)
6. I've always wondered about what presents Harry gives others. Beyond the first book, I always assumed he gave presents.
7. The answer would be a Deathly Hallows spoiler. ;) Does it come to mind? Think of a set, sort of. A set of three. :)
8. So sweet!

9littlegeek
Sep 10, 2007, 3:13pm Top

#8 DH SPOILER

Didn't he stop trying to collect that set after the bad things happened, which was way before James came to Hogwarts? It's hard to remember the details now....I know he was borrowing it during the incidents of Godric's Hollow and now I can't remember why....God, I'm old.

10foggidawn
Sep 10, 2007, 3:16pm Top

#9 -- The temptation to collect them was there throughout his lifetime. Remember (BOOK 6 & 7 SPOILER) that he got his arm burned when he was trying to put on the ring -- not because it was a Horcrux, but because it was a Hallow.

11Kerian
Sep 10, 2007, 3:21pm Top

DH SPOILER

#9 littlegeek:
Yes, he did. It wasn't until James and Lily went into hidding with Harry that Dumbledore realized James had such a cloak. At that time, he asked to borrow it, I think mainly out of curiousity. And you're not old! :)

#10 foggi:
Well put. :)

12littlegeek
Sep 10, 2007, 3:24pm Top

MORE SPOILERAGE Oh yeah, he didn't know that James had it during his time at Hogwarts....very big of him to give it up to Harry in Book 1 if he still had hankerings over Hallows. I thought that the temptation was mostly overcome by then and that it was while trying to destroy the horcrux that he got burned.

13Kerian
Sep 10, 2007, 3:29pm Top

DH SPOILER

I agree, the temptation must have burned down by then. On the matter of burning, I thought his hand was burned when he put the ring on thinking he could bring Ariana back? In 'King's Cross,' I think he told Harry he (D) had acted rashly and should have acted more cautious with the ring. :)

14foggidawn
Sep 10, 2007, 3:35pm Top

DH SPOILER (still)

"Why," said Snape, without preamble, "why did you put on that ring? It carries a curse, surely you realized that? Why even touch it?"
. . . Dumbledore grimaced.
"I . . . was a fool. Sorely tempted . . ."
"Tempted by what?"
Dumbledore did not answer.

-- DH, p.680, American hardcover edition

So, it's still a little ambiguous. I think the desire to bring Ariana back was always part of his motivation (even before she died, to bring his parents back) -- but I do think that, though he had mastered the temptation, it was always there.

15littlegeek
Sep 10, 2007, 3:36pm Top

DH SPOILERAGE (and polly is going to be giving us hell, you know)

Yes, all that, but he must have gotten over it if he gave Harry the cloak! Remember, that he never took the Minister job because he feared his own desires. That indicates someone who is aware and "working his program" even tho perhaps he had a momentary slip while destroying the horcrux.

16foggidawn
Sep 10, 2007, 3:38pm Top

Right! I think we're really in agreement here. He had given up the cloak, he was committed to having the wand but not using it, and Polly is going to chew our ears off -- and putting on the ring was a moment of weakness.

17littlegeek
Sep 10, 2007, 3:42pm Top

EVEN MORE SPOILERAGE SORRY POLLY

OK, so how dumb was DD to take the cloak while James & Lily were in hiding from Voldy? Surely he could have waited until the danger died down.

More of the temptation overcoming his common sense.

18Kerian
Sep 10, 2007, 3:55pm Top

Super sorry, Polly! :)

#17 littlegeek:
I never thought of that. He should have waited!

19foggidawn
Sep 10, 2007, 3:56pm Top

Still Spoiling

#17 -- Yes, but was there any indication that the danger would die down? I think that, at that point, he might have been considering using the Hallows to defeat Voldy.

20littlegeek
Sep 10, 2007, 4:03pm Top

CONTINUED SPOILERAGE

Indeed, he may have even been worried that Voldy was after the Hallows as well.

21Marensr
Sep 10, 2007, 4:04pm Top

Okay here's something- luck or fate in Harry Potter.

I was thinking about the Quidditch match and how Hermione attacks the wrong teacher but it inadvertantly saves Harry, how Harry catches the snitch in his mouth - how he's always telling Ron that he does things by luck. LG's Filch chasing them and they end up in an important place are good examples too.

In the Harry Potter world where do we lie with the idea of fate vs. free will or some more complex interplay of the two. Especially given the importance of prophecy later on.

I am not expecting a certain answer I think it is just an interesting subject to discuss.

22gpwts
Sep 10, 2007, 5:15pm Top

DH SPOILER! (sorry polly peer pressure!)

Also isn't their something to the idea that he took it to secure that James stayed in the house, and there fore protected. Anyone who knows anything about James knows that he would have taken that cloak and gone a adventure

Lily says that James is all restless in her letter to Sirius cuz he can't go strolling.

END OF SPOILER

I've always like the idea of fate. It makes me dumping soda on myself or whatever seem like I meant to do that. But I also remind myself that its a book, so fate seems to

23Kerian
Sep 10, 2007, 5:26pm Top

DH SPOILER!

LOL. I think polly deserves pie or something when she comes back. :)

#22 gpwts:
Good idea! Maybe Dumbledore took the cloak for that reason. Hmm, I wonder why they were sending letters out? (There could have been interference.) Perhaps someone trustworthy hand-delivered it to Sirius.

24pollysmith
Sep 10, 2007, 9:08pm Top

you guys! So funny! cherry pie with ice cream please!

I am enjoying the thread.

25foggidawn
Sep 10, 2007, 9:24pm Top

*jumps guiltily*

Cherry pie? Whatever you say, Polly!



Look guys, Polly's here! Ahem! Hi, Polly! Well, here we are, discussing chapters 9-12 of PS/SS! Not Deathly Hallows! Not Half-Blood Prince! Really!

26pollysmith
Sep 10, 2007, 9:31pm Top

so I see!...mmmmm delicious!

27gpwts
Sep 11, 2007, 8:09am Top

*backs slowly away from polly*
you feeling okay?

28gpwts
Sep 11, 2007, 8:09am Top

This message has been deleted by its author.

29pollysmith
Sep 11, 2007, 12:24pm Top

of course. i've just had a rough weekend

30gpwts
Sep 11, 2007, 5:21pm Top

*give polly a hug*

31pollysmith
Sep 11, 2007, 8:39pm Top

thanks honey! I needed that!

32littlegeek
Sep 11, 2007, 11:35pm Top

awww...polly, do you want a cookie? hope you feel better.

33Kerian
Sep 12, 2007, 12:14am Top

Yes, polly, feel better soon! :)

34pollysmith
Sep 12, 2007, 7:31am Top

mmm...cookies! thanks!

35gpwts
Sep 12, 2007, 8:02am Top

think those cookies are big enough LG

*munches one*

36Kerian
Sep 12, 2007, 10:39am Top

LOL. Reminds me of the movie "Honey I Shrunk the Kids"

37littlegeek
Sep 12, 2007, 10:59am Top

Can a cookie be too big?

38Kerian
Sep 12, 2007, 11:00am Top

Never! :)

39gpwts
Sep 12, 2007, 5:24pm Top

never ever *gosh these things are good*

40littlegeek
Sep 14, 2007, 3:28pm Top

I assume we're just going to read to the end of the book now, as there are only 5 chapters left.

I have to get my CoS back before next week, I loaned it out!

41Kerian
Edited: Sep 14, 2007, 3:43pm Top

I never got my SS back from my kid sister when she borrowed it the night DH was released. Hmm, looks a room cleaning is in order while our mom's gone for the weekend, bwahahahaha! (I'm not a bad sister, I swear. It'll be cookie baking, shoe shopping, and movies. :)

ETA: Luckily, I have a two UK copies of SS as well.

42littlegeek
Sep 14, 2007, 3:41pm Top

Is this the same sister you're baking a cake for? You could just withhold the cake until SS is produced.

Is this also the sister that always makes fun of your Harry obsession?

43Kerian
Edited: Sep 14, 2007, 3:46pm Top

Nope, this is the youngest. Hmm, I bet I get pretty confussing when when I mention my sisters. They are 12, 18, and 21. The 12 year old has my copy of SS and yes, always makes fun of my HP obsession. I will be baking a cake for the 18 (that day 19) year old sister on Halloween. (I bake all of their birthday cakes, though.)

44littlegeek
Sep 14, 2007, 3:47pm Top

You're a good sister.

45Kerian
Sep 14, 2007, 3:51pm Top

Thank you! :)

46gpwts
Sep 14, 2007, 5:28pm Top

And I thought my sis was a pain I feel for you K

47foggidawn
Sep 14, 2007, 5:31pm Top

#40 -- All right! More stuff to read this weekend! (I just brought home a huge pile of library books, mostly for my Children's Lit course. It's all fun reading, but there's still a lot of it.)

48Kerian
Sep 14, 2007, 5:44pm Top

#46 gpwts:
They're each a pain in different ways. :)

49gpwts
Sep 14, 2007, 10:25pm Top

there's a reason why, in my book, i traded in for brothers

50pollysmith
Sep 15, 2007, 8:13am Top

(sigh) I always wanted a sister! i got stuck in the middle of two brothers!

51foggidawn
Sep 15, 2007, 9:20am Top

#50 -- yeah, I asked for a little sister and got a brother instead. I wanted them to take him back, but they weren't having it. I spent several years thereafter threatening to sell him to the gypsies, but never could find any that were willing to take him! ;-)

(Surprisingly, we get along really well now that we're grown up!)

52gpwts
Sep 15, 2007, 9:38pm Top

I always always wanted a big brother (I still am looking for a replacement for my missing one)

53Kerian
Sep 16, 2007, 12:10am Top

polly and foggi:
Sisters are overrated. Having three of them means not having a conversation without with one of them without them asking who took their new top or jeans. Our grandmother (only had a brother) has a good laugh at us whenever she hears such accusations.

#52 gpwts:
You have a missing brother?! I'm super sorry, gpwts.

54LettaAvanell
Sep 16, 2007, 12:27am Top

I have three sisters too and we don't have that problem very often. we usually get along pretty well. only two of us are still living at home though. and my sister who is in college doesn't come home very often since she doesn't drive.

55gpwts
Sep 16, 2007, 12:28am Top

i meant metaphorically. I always wanted one but I couldn't ever find a proper substitute they kept growing up and the fictional ones kept dying

56Kerian
Sep 16, 2007, 12:40am Top

#54 Letta:
My sisters and I are as different as can be. Had we not been sisters, we would probably hate each other. Sad, but true, we drive each other crazy just being who we are. :)

#55 gpwts:
I'm glad to hear that. Hey! Why don't you read "Twilight"?? I think you could find a fictional brother there! :)

57pollysmith
Sep 16, 2007, 9:28am Top

Brothers tease!

58Kerian
Sep 16, 2007, 11:18am Top

I bet they do. My cousin never fails to tease me when he visits. I guess that neither having a brother or a sister is necessarily as enjoyable as one might expect. :)

59gpwts
Sep 16, 2007, 7:35pm Top

well I had my older cousin matt who was 13 yrs older then me and then he grew up to fast, and I didn't see him enough

then there was dustfinger and Sirius (they died in the same week)

The guy I made up in my head ironically named James

A various group of other fictional guys

It's sad really

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