I didn't know that you're supposed to remove your sunglasses when you're talking to someone. Yes o.k., I can see why that makes sense, but you should try talking to someone in the glaring Australian sun without glasses.

One of my friends didn't know that men are always supposed to walk on the side closest to gutter, which is a hangover from when ladies had long dresses and gentlemen shielded them from unmentionables. My father, lovely English gentleman that he is, has done this for as long as I can remember, it's a reflex to him.

Does anyone else have one?

Yeah, my dad, an American midwesterner, always walked on the street side of me, even when I was a little girl. He taught me to expect that from a gentleman, which is too bad, because no one else ever did that for me.

My father, a southerner, also does that.

Have you heard this one: a man should precede a woman down stairs and follow her up (I always thought that was quite a convenient rule, for men), just in case she falls?

You are not supposed to participate in a toast when it is in your honor - that is, not drink when everyone else does. I don't think anyone knows that one.

Take your hat off indoors.

It's considered rude to point out the rudeness of others.

It's bad manners to sing at the dinner table (although much may be forgiven depending on the quality of one's singing, I suppose...)

> 4

I thought everyone knew that.

Of course, I should consider that not everyone is a devotée of Miss Manners, nor does everyone have shelves of etiquette manuals, old and new!

Message edited by its author, Oct 3, 2007, 2:40pm.

As an exception to the general "door" rule: men should go first through a revolving door, so they can do the majority of the pushing.

With regards to the side of the street you walk on... I've actually heard that theres a less glamorous reason for that one. It used to be that the side a man would walk on would depend on whether the woman was a legit wife/girlfriend, or a mistress. That way, an acquaintance passing by would know whether it was appropriate to introduce his wife to the woman.

> 8 - lilithcat

Next time you attend a wedding, see how many times the bride and groom drink during the toasts. I think if more of them knew that rule, there would be a lot fewer embarrassing wedding videos.

> 11

True. But these are probably the same brides and grooms who send bridal registry information with the invitations, and constantly whine "but it's my day!" And shove cake in each other's faces.

Sometimes, I despair!

Lilithcat, occasionally feeling a bit like Horatio at the bridge

>9 On a similar note a gentleman should always go first walking down the stairs so if the lady following should stumble he can catch her! -Or at least break her fall!!!

Never pour your own sake (Japanese rice wine), and always keep your companion's sake cup full (-to relieve him/her of the ungracious need to ask for more).

>True. But these are probably the same brides and grooms who send bridal registry information with the invitations, and constantly whine "but it's my day!" And shove cake in each other's faces.

Nope, I had no clue. Nor am I as classless as those mentioned.

Message edited by its author, Oct 3, 2007, 4:56pm.

> 15

Oh, well, you're a Thingamabrarian! So by definition you are not classless. Exceptions exist to every rule. ;-))

When I go out for a walk with my wife, I always walk on the street side, because I'm considerably taller and branches in people's yards that miss her would hit me. Not exactly Emily Post I guess.

Re: 10
Beschrich: That's actually quite interesting for my work - do you remember where you heard/read it?

A place setting should never have more than three forks or three spoons to the sides of the plate, even if more will be used during the meal (the additional ones are supposed to be supplied with their course).

Of course, since few people have 'help' these days, it's unsurprising that no-one knows it (I only do because I have shelves – well, one half-sized shelf – of etiquette manuals). But if one does, and one also felt so inclined, one could be disdainful of the ignorance of the rule displayed by cruise-ship restaurateurs on the formal dinner nights (or so I hear). Not that I'm not itching to go on a cruise, ever since I read A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again.

Pass the port to the left

Sorry Mysterywatcher, I don't. I think it was sort of a random anecdote that one of my Victorian literature professors told.

Beschrich:
Not to worry, thanks for the reply. Hopefully it will come up in my research.
MW.

>10, THAT is a fascinating explanation - I have never heard that before! :)

Ladies are never required to rise if sitting when introduced or to greet another person.
This gives rise to the old joke: "What do ladies do sitting, men do standing and dog's on three legs?"
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Shake hands!

However, if she is wearing gloves, they should be removed (in ideal situations).

A lot of etiquette is culturally specific. Many Europeans and north Americans who come to Africa behave quite rudely out of ignorance of local cultures ("etiquette that not everyone knows", as the title of this thread says). Fortunately Africans generally are very tolerant, with a strong sense of hospitality, and tend to overlook the social gaffes. However I often detect a sense of both amusement and bemusement at the behaviour of strange foreigners.

>26 How interesting. Could you give a few examples?

#27 - Africa is made up of thousands of different cultures and is by no means homogeneous, but the following are examples which I have come across, most of which are quite widespread.

Greetings are extremely important, taking time to greet someone properly, often using a particular formula. A quick nod or "Hi!" does not suffice. In northern Sudan the onus is on the person who enters a room to go round and shake hands with everyone already in the room. It's surprising how much better you get on with a casual acquaintance, even a policeman, shopkeeper or taxi driver, if you take the time and trouble to greet them properly. And although I only speak a handful of the hundreds of languages in the countries in which I've lived, I've learned the greetings in quite a number of languages - people are very appreciative if they can be greeted in their own language before switching to a lingua franca such as English, French, Arabic or Kiswahili.

You can't indicate the height of a person (eg a child) by holding the hand out horizontally at the required height. That is reserved for animals. For humans the hand must be held vertically at more or less the right height - "She is so high".

You can't beckon someone by wiggling the fingers with the palm facing upwards. You must do it the other way round, with palm and fingers facing down.

You shouldn't point at someone with a finger, but you can extend the lower lip to point at someone.

Only the right hand is used for eating and greeting (shaking hands). The left hand has other earthier uses and it is not only rude but disgusting to put the left hand into the common food bowl. In some cultures the right hand or both hands together are used for giving or receiving gifts.

Hospitality must be offered and accepted. It is rude not to offer something (even if it is only a glass of water) to a visitor. It is also rude not to accept food or drink which is offered to you. If you don't like the food or are worried about the cleanliness of the water you should still accept it and at least make a show of tasting it - you don't have to finish it.

Age and status are important in engaging with people correctly - I know this is also true to some extent in Europe, but more so in Africa. I've often been called to defuse tensions when young European or north American aid workers have tried to deal with traditional leaders, elders, bishops or government officials with egalitarian bonhomie.

Africans generally avoid public confrontation and making others lose face. Consensus is valued above majority decisions or debating victories. Again many young aid workers fail to appreciate this.

Alexander McCall Smith's The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency series nicely showcases a lot of African good manners.

I was reminded of this one when I saw a violation of it last night: ladies do not wear hats in situations that would formerly have called for evening wear. I don't know if this is the reason for the rule, but I can tell you that a sun-hat worn to the theatre at night just looks silly, however well it may look with one's clothes.

#25 LLP

I dunno about that - my female cousin was raised by her mother that "young women rise for older women"

>28 johnthefireman, I love travel memoirs that show such culture clashes of custom and etiquette!

In Thailand the top of your head is where your spirit resides, and you never casually touch someone there. Your feet are the least presentable point of you to the extent that you don't even cross your legs, lest you point your toe at someone.

I was surprised therefore to see a roomful of actors wagging the soles of their feet at the audience while singing "Getting to Know You" in Yul Brynner's "The King and I"! Mind you, I think only westernized Thais have seen that movie.

Thais already thought Anna Leonowen's book Anna and the King of Siam insults a great man, their King Mongkut, so I don't think the movies are widely available in Thailand, lese majeste (sp?) being a really serious faux pas. The Thai Queen did, however, graciously attend one NYC showing as guest of Yul Brynner.

Edit: http://www.thaistudents.com/kingandi/owe...

Message edited by its author, Oct 15, 2007, 7:07am.

>I don't know if this is the reason for the rule, but I can tell you that a sun-hat worn to the theatre at night just looks silly, however well it may look with one's clothes.

I always thought that the theatre/hat rule had as much to do with visibility as anything.

Probably when hats looked like this, but one doesn't often see such things these days, except maybe on Ladies' Day at the Royal Ascot, although since that's a daytime event the rule doesn't apply, but then I'm using it as an example of oversized millinery, which is in fact de rigueur on that occasion – well, maybe not oversized, but certainly elaborate –, rather than an example of the ladies-don't-wear-hats rule, so I suppose it probably still serves, though as a counterexample I may cite the related rule about ladies properly wearing hats in church, where they (the hats) would seem to have the potential to block sight-lines although one never hears about that, perhaps because it is unseemly to be concerned about sight-lines in church; similarly, the proscription against ladies' hats applies to formal dinners and dances, where sight-lines are irrelevant anyway except for ogling which is frowned upon and besides there's an easier way to see a lady's décolletage, namely, to be her dance partner, so hats might be an advantage in this situation for ladies and gents both, in that the former would be protected from long-distance ogling while the latter could indulge in short-distance ogling without it being immediately apparent to the rest of the room but at any rate considering theatre, dances, races, and church, the hat on/off rule varies with time of day rather than venue, although as a sure test of the hypothesis it would be interesting to know what holds at matinée performances; still, though, the hat I saw wasn't nearly large enough to block the sight of the average turn-of-the-century adult.

Edited for HTML.

Message edited by its author, Oct 15, 2007, 9:12am.

>31 margd - the thing about not pointing the soles of your feet at people can also be found in some African and Arab cultures.

>31 margd - I can identify with your feelings about the film. I rarely watch films about Africa nowadays, even famous and worthy ones, because I cringe at the errors and stereotypes. It often seems as if they just superimpose north American or European culture onto African scenery with a few exotic costumes and customs thrown in. The lead actors are rarely Africans, and the extras are usually speaking a language from a different African country to the one in which the film is supposedly set.

I sometimes wonder whether this reflects laziness on the part of cinema-goers in north America and Europe, who can't be bothered to stretch their minds to understand anything different, or laziness on the part of the film-making industry, which underestimates its audience and can't be bothered to make something which is both authentic and comprehensible - but I'm straying off topic here...

>35 johnthefireman--Blood Diamond, Last Samurai... I hear you!

Rarely have I hosted people completely new to Canada or the US, but those few were trying to be agreeable, and each in his or her own way was very charming. There was a scientist from the USSR who didn't seem to do little courtesies such as "ladies first" (we jammed in a door!), and yet was SO appreciative of Niagara Falls. It was very touching. My Thanksgiving dinner this year was a first for a 20-something young woman from Thailand, and she was adorable, although it was a little strange to have my turkey photographed!

I hope when I'm abroad, my interest and attempts to be agreeable will be what's remembered instead of my inevitable faux pas. (One time my then 8YO kid hit the huge gong in a Buddhist shrine, I think announcing to the Buddha (and all present) that prayers would be forthcoming. Apologies sure were!)

>36 margd - you're right that many visitors do try to be agreeable, and in that context their unfamiliarity with local customs is accepted and can be both charming and touching. I think people recognise sincerity when they see it.

One comes across a certain class of tourist who are less agreeable. Interestingly I find many aid workers and certain types of missionary are also impervious to local culture - they come with a mission and are convinced that their way is the right way.

Etiquette can be different even between fairly similar cultures. In many places in Europe, for example, it is considered rude not to look into your partner's eyes when chinking glasses, whereas in Australia everyone stares at the glasses, as if afraid they will otherwise miss. I've tried to change this habit of Australians, but it has only resulted in all my friends making fun of it and rather than look into the other person's eyes, they do what can only be described as ogling.

My Canadian dad tells a story on himself in which he learned something about the stereotype of the ugly American. Spying a raucus, bumptious crowd in a Cypriot restaurant, he tsk'd disapprovingly, "Look at those Americans!" to which his companion replied, "Er, George, they're Canadians..."

>37 johnthefireman, you have me wondering why movies like King and I and Last Samurai grate on me, while I really enjoy travel memoirs, yes, but especially accounts from people who spend some time in an alien culture (not Anna, but Learning to Bow, City of Joy, Kabloona). Maybe it's because the latter stay long enough and are open to overlooking superficial differences, and to appreciating others' ways that might be more appropriate--at least in their time and place.

Message edited by its author, Oct 16, 2007, 6:08am.

>39 margd - for me the key is "appreciating others' ways". A lot more could be said but that simple phrase is powerful enough - especially when "that might be more appropriate" is added to it.

According to Emily Post, "none but vulgarians" would allow their butlers to have a mustache, and such people should be shunned.

Ah, etiquette is a strange thing.

I remember rules from somewhere that underwear should always be white, and that men who don't smoke should carry lighters for women who do.

Courtesy to others is always appropriate; etiquette tends to be an effort to set formal rules for courtesy. These formal rules are often specific to time and place and don't transplant well.

I like the rule in #40 "appreciating others' ways that might be more appropriate".

Making choices can be challenging. I have a friend who says, "Legally, one chooses the lesser evil; morally one chooses between right and wrong; ethically, one chooses the highest right."

It’s a level of choice alternatives I have often found helpful.

When, for example, a person, accustomed to finger food, faces a formal dinner with 3 plates, 3 forks, 3 spoons, 3 knives, and 3 or 4 beverage containers, what is the courteous choice for the host and hostess to make to accomodate the less formal individual?

I believe that the courteous response is to overlook the less formal person's lack of "etiquette" in that situation. Think of Atticus and Walter in To Kill a Mockingbird. To point out the rudeness of another is the height of rudeness.

There's also the story of Teddy Roosevelt at a state dinner in Asia (Japan, I believe). One of his aides is thirsty and drinks from the finger-bowl (used for washing the hands). Everyone at the table is dumbstruck. Simply aghast. Roosevelt then picks up his own finger bowl and drinks from it, allowing his aide to keep face. For this, I am told, the Japanese considered Roosevelt a great man.

>42 dore: Re fingerfood, Tiffany's Table Manners for Teenagers decrees that the proper way to eat a stalk of asparagus is with your fingers--unless it droops, and then one should first cut it in half! Is that still the preferred approach?? If I hadn't read it, I would have chastised my boys for that one! (Although they don't appear to have found that nugget yet--whew!)

>43, Funny, I heard that same fingerbowl story about the Queen of England (not sure which one specifically)! I wonder if there is any truth to it (for any of these figures), or if it is just a humorous story that grew up in order to teach a moral.

Yeah. I wouldn't doubt that the story is entirely apocryphal.

> 42

When, for example, a person, accustomed to finger food, faces a formal dinner with 3 plates, 3 forks, 3 spoons, 3 knives, and 3 or 4 beverage containers, what is the courteous choice for the host and hostess to make to accomodate the less formal individual?

The host and hostess made the choice when they decided to have a formal dinner. A "less formal" individual who cannot accommodate him or herself to the proper behavior of a formal setting should decline the invitation. (This assumes that the "less formal" individual is so, not out of ignorance, but out of preference.)

>43 & 45
Good for Teddy Roosevelt, the Queen of England, and any others credited with rescuing behavior!

>44
I haven't heard that one, but I love it. How often does an asparagus staff not droop, unless it is short when cooked?

Pick it up with your fingers, test for droop; it droops, put it back down, and cut the stalk (into bite-size pieces?) with a fork before you eat it? I can imagine a number of table conversations around that one!

>47
Granted, less formal can be due to preference, but ignorance or cultural difference is another issue. Formal can also be a preference, sometimes with a deliberate intent of intimidation.

I remember someone going on and on about how a great aunt would drink tea only from a bone china cup with a matching saucer. This was considered incomprehensible behavior to someone accustomed to what? (paper cups, fruit jars, something else?)

Ah, well, etiquette--what we know, as well as what we don't know--is a source of entertainment as well as endless education in time and place, as well as in cultural diversity.

#9, #13 (stairs, revolving doors)

Similarly, I was taught that a gentleman is first to enter an elevator car -

1) to be sure that it's safe;
and
2) to allow the ladies to be the first off.

I work in one of the few skyscrapers in a small city, and apparently no one else in town has learned it this way.

>42 dore - I like the distinction between courtesy and etiquette.

>43, 45, 46 Jesse_wiedinmyer, fannyprice - I too had heard the story, I think about Queen Victoria. As you say, an apocryphal tale to teach a moral. A parable, one might say.

How would one handle the Hollandaise sauce???

>43 Here's a story about Franklin Roosevelt. He was having tea with a new acquaintance, who was astonished to see the president pour some of his tea into his saucer. The guest followed TR's example of face-saving by pouring a bit of tea into his own saucer. Then FDR added some cream to the saucer and stirred it, and the guest did likewise. Then the president put his saucer on the floor to provide a treat for his dog Fala, leaving the guest to wonder what to do then.

Another of my favorite etiquette anecdotes -

When he introduced himself to Big Mike, Sean was already knee-deep in the various problems and crises of the few black students at Briarcrest. Sean's daughter, Collins, a junior at Briarcrest and Tennessee State champion in the pole vault, had guaranteed him almost exposure to them. She ran track, they ran track. The first time Sean decided to play a role in their social education had been a couple of years earlier, when the track team traveled to Chattanooga for a meet. Coincidentally, also in Chattanooga, a Briarcrest tennis player was playing a tennis tournament at the fancy local country club. Sean thought the black kids at Briarcrest might benefit from some exposure to tennis and golf and other white country club sports; and he thought the Briarcrest tennis player would enjoy a cheering section. Gathering up all two of the black kids on the track team -which amounted to two thirds of the blacks at Briarcrest - he drove them to the Chattanooga Country Club. Sure enough, it was, for them, an entirely new experience. Neither had ever seen a tennis match in person. And while they had no idea how to keep score, they quickly worked out that the Briarcrest kid was making mincemeat of his opponent. After each point they'd stand and holler and raise their fists:

Woo!
Woo!
Woo!

Rather than explain tennis club etiquette, of which he vaguely disapproved anyway, Sean let them have their fun. Between sets they ran over to the concession stand where a little old lady sniffed at them, "I just think y'all are in bad taste." To which one of the kids replied, "You must be rootin' for that other little white guy." The lady went off in a huff and the kids returned to the match, where the Briarcrest player kept winning. The breaking point came when one of the kids stood up and screamed "Keep on! You're beatin' him like a two dollar whore!" Sean tried to drag the boy by his oversized jersey back into his seat, but before he could get him down, the boy spotted the old lady in the stands, glaring at him, and screamed: "It's got to be killing ya, ma'am! It's got to be killing ya!"

from The Blind Side : Evolution of a Game by Michael Lewis

>54 Jesse_wiedinmyer - this reminds me a little of the scene in the 1964 film My Fair Lady, where Eliza Doolittle, on her first public outing to the races, is not doing too badly until she lets rip with, "Come on, Dover! Move your bloomin' arse!"

# 18 "spoon soup from inside out". It is my impression that that rule, although it a clear indication of your manner, changes with the country. As I recall it you have to eat soup the other way in France.

# 38 Around here you are not supposed to let the glasses touch each other when cheering - except perhaps in beer. That is unmannered:-)

Amberwitch, where is "here" that glasses don't touch?

> CEP

Sorry, that was kind of obscure;-)
'Around here' is Copenhagen, Denmark. And it may be a little harsh to call it unmannered, but it is definetely lowbrow to clink glasses - especially when drinking wine.

>21 When passing the port to the left, the person at the head of the table (who starts) should first pour a glass for the guest on their right (a backhander), so that they don't have to wait for everyone else.

> 59

Heh! I didn't know that part! (Mind you, I don't drink port.)

Is there a general rule about the "table turning"? The table etiquette book I bought for my teenagers advises a young man to seat the girl on her right until the table turns, and then to converse with the girl on his left. Does the host or hostess initiate the turn or does it just happen?

How about those 8' round tables in a conference banquet hall? Too often the people who know each other chat over their lunches while the spouse or newbie dines in silence.

Message edited by its author, Oct 23, 2007, 9:01am.

Does the host or hostess initiate the turn or does it just happen?

The hostess (unless there is not one, in which case the host) initiates the turn.

There is an anecdote about a woman who found herself seated beside a man whom she could not abide, that when it was time for the two of them to speak, she made him recite the multiplication tables with her, to avoid both having to converse with him and having to reveal to their hostess that they they were not on speaking terms.

Those 8' round tables are a good example of one reason why, in more formal circumstances, seating arrangements are fixed (the other being protocol-ular precedence, but that's in the etiquette stratosphere. My WW2 copy of Emily Post says that if one is unsure whether the Bishop of Someplace takes precedence over the Count of Elsewhere, the State Department has an office of protocol to help one sort things out. Even worse, the order and pairing of gentlemen and ladies as they enter the dining room is not the same as the seating arrangements. I mean, my god...). ANYway, for us mortals, the 'best practice' is to separate people who know each other, including couples.

>59

When I was an undergraduate, I was invited to dinner a couple of times by my tutor. The college custom was to leave the table after dessert and take the port in another room, where everyone sat in a broad semicircle around the fireplace. The port started on the right of the fireplace (with the most senior person present??), and when it had got all the way around, was sent back to the starting point by an ingenious gravity-powered funicular railway, so that no-one had to get up.

As an American I was always taught that unless you are cutting something with both knife and fork you leave your left hand in your lap. And of course, elbows never ever make contact with the table. However, I'll be heading to Austria soon and I hear that to 'hide your hands' under the table is considered rude, that instead you're supposed to rest them on the table top. I'm not sure if this is strictly true or not, but I'd love to know before I commit some ghastly social faux pas.

Right down here in the etiquette smog zone (unlike the stratosphere of yore drbubbles cites in #62) my pet peeve is those who slather butter all over a huge hunk of bread. Or fill a wine glass to the brim. Elbows on the table seem to be an evolving rule among my crowd--sometimes on the table, sometimes not.

#10 --- one of my Mexican friends, a very polite young gentleman, told me that if, in a mixed-gender pair, the woman walked on the street side, that signified that she was being displayed by him, i.e. he was her pimp.

> sollocks
I don't know how it is in Austria, but I remember being berated for hiding my hand under the table a a child - as well as for resting my elbows on the table. So in Denmark the safe way to keep your hands is to rest your forearms on the table:-)

> 64 sollocks, Wikipedia has interesting compilations for various countries' "table manners". Don't know if this helps, but the entry for "French table manners" says: "Both hands must be above the table at the same time. They cannot be below the table even if they are together."

I wonder if Europeans accept hand(s)-in-lap and fork-in-right-hand in Americans, if not their own. They must see enough of us committing what might be faux pas in their countries, but are acceptable in the US.

(When I first moved from Canada to the US, my first hosts were curious, in a pleasant way, to observe whether I held my fork in left or right hand. Apparently, I use both. Still do.)

>53

Fogies, your story of Franklin Roosevelt pouring tea for his dog reminded me of two hilarious experiences.

Years ago, when I started a new job, my manager invited me to his home for dinner. His wife was attractive and charming, their home was lovely, and the two teenage kids were bright and very polite. For this occasion, they had dragged out linen tablecloth and napkins, the good china, silver utensils, and crystal glassware. Wanting to impress my new boss, I was on best behavior.

The teenagers waited a decent interval after everyone had finished the main course, then asked to be excused. The boy, apparently on autopilot, picked up his dinner plate, walked into the kitchen, and (still within sight) set it down on the floor for the dog! The parents were mortified, and pretended to be shocked – shocked! – that he would do such a thing. The bewildered look on the kid’s face suggested that the dog was the regular recipient of leftovers.

I had a similar experience when I went to Turkey. Dogs and cats are everywhere, but they don’t appear to belong to anyone. We went to Ephesus, and after touring the site, we had a fantastic lunch in an open-air café. The waiter was very attentive, but he kept trying to take our plates before we were finished. The portions were very generous, and eventually defeated even my boyfriend, usually a clean-your-plate kind of guy. The waiter appeared delighted to finally gain custody of the plate. He walked away twirling the plate on his fingers, then bowed dramatically as he placed the plate on the ground. About a dozen semi-feral dogs immediately swooped in.

My boyfriend was appalled, and said he thought he might be sick. I couldn’t resist pointing out that we just might be looking at the dishwashers.

> 64
Just to clarify: In the US, you may cut things up, then transfer the fork to your right hand and hide your left hand. In Europe, you keep your fork in your left hand and your knife in your right, and you do not put your hands below the table. Elbows must be kept off the table, but the wrist may be rested lightly on the edge.

Message edited by its author, Oct 24, 2007, 7:30am.

From recent experience, not everyone knows this: on entering a Christian church, men should remove any hat or other headgear. Turban-wearers and Orthodox Jews are excused, but kids in baseball caps or woolly hats are not! (It used to be that women should cover their heads, but I think only traditional Orthodox churches and some very old-fashioned European Roman Catholic churches would expect that now.)

>70 I seem to recall an old movie where an escaped American POW was spotted by the Gestapo in a French cafe because of the way he handled his knife and fork.

And in Thailand, it's impolite to put the fork to your mouth! You use it to push the item onto a spoon.

You know how, when a rule against something crops up, it's because people have been doing the something?

In the days of chivalry, the training of young squires included proper feasting etiquette, such as not taking food off of other people's plates/trenchers and not taking a whizz in the corner of the feasting hall.

One of my archæology professors always said that "the past is a different country."

>73 Thanks for the tip on Thailand--I'll be there early next year and I guess I'd been expecting chopsticks. Now chopsticks have a whole set of rules--keeping them together is the only one I remember.

#74: And when at table, one should blow one's nose into one's left hand, never the right.

>76, eew, should one EVER blow one's nose at the table?

> "Table manners" crowd:

I am under the impression that, in the US, eating either "American Style" or "Continental Style" is acceptable. Are both considered acceptable in Europe - and / or does it depend on the country?

Also, elbows on the table - is there variation from country to country here as to when this is and is not acceptable? I -believe- the idea, at least in the US, is that you avoid this when eating, but at other times it's fine. I just avoid it altogether.

"American style" eating would be acceptable in the UK, if you don't mind everybody covertly thinking "hm...must be an American".
"Elbows on the table" to me means elbows on the dining table. If you're just playing poker you can put your elbows where you like.

Nowadays, either the Continental or American manner of using utensils is perfectly acceptable in the US. Resting your forearms on the table between courses or after dinner is likewise tolerated.

In Finland, we used to say "Inget stöd under nya hus." (approx "New houses don't need support") when children put their elbows on the table. That gave tired adults some wiggle room at the kitchen table, although it isn't acceptable to do so in a more formal context.

#80

I like that one! My grandfather used to say, "Elbows off the table lest no mouse."

Message edited by its author, Nov 1, 2007, 8:36am.

Miss_read, I fear I've mis-read your grandfather's saying. I don't understand it....

(With respect to grandfatherly mouse-related things, my grandfather refused to eat Raisin Bran because he said it looked like a mouse got in it.)

Get your elbows off the table or you won't have any mouse for supper!

Which, even more oddly, reminds me of one of my grandfather's sayings, "Dig deeper, puppy at the bottom!"

#84 LarsonLewisProject

Is that your Finnish grandfather? Because mine was Welsh ... leading me to ponder the Finland/Wales connection. ;)

Grandfather was a salty old Yank. I think his grandmother was Welsh, however: her family name was "Bray" and she was from Skowhegan, ME.

No Finnish blood in my veins as far as I know, regrettably. That's just my area of expertise and I lived there as a kid.

LLP

>64 The other evening (somewhere in Scotland), I tried eating with the right hand, and hiding the left in my lap. My mother-in-law didn't notice. So it's probably OK (except at very formal dinners)!

I lived in Bavaria for 2 years, and no one seemed to care how we handled our utensils, as long as we USED them. I think my dad and I shocked some people when we went into Pizza Hut and ate our pizza with our HANDS. *gasp, shock*

Joke from England:

During the blitz a nanny was giving dinner to her two charges while bombs fell a few miles away.

Boy: Nanny, what are those loud booming noises?

Nanny: Bombs, dear, elbows OFF the table!

Fogies,

Are you sure that is a joke?

My mother might have let elbows on the table slip by, but she'd have corrected a grammatical error if bombs had been falling on the roof.

I know this is a bit of a dead thread but I thought I'd try anyway. I was eating dinner tonight and I for some reason remembered that my grandmother never drinks with her meal. I mean any kind of beverage. She always has something to drink after, whether it be water or coffee or juice. She always said that only peasants drink their beverage with their meal, that it was common.

As I've been to many multi-course dinners and there has always been a water glass and a wine glass included in the setting, so I don't think it's a class thing, even though it sounds like it is. I have no idea where she came up with this. It could have been a leftover from her childhood, but they didn't have much money. Her mother ran a boarding house for ladies though and she was ultra victorian.

I was wondering if anyone else had heard of this before and if they could give me an idea of where this might have originated.

Thanks.

I've certainly heard of it before. By OtherHalf's family still practise this. Something to do with thoughts about how food was believed to be digested I believe - long out of fashion now, but who knows if any trials were ever properly conducted. STill loads of googlable ideas on it though

I had a friend who was a high school exchange student in England 25 years ago who had the same experience with the family he was staying with. No one in the family was allowed to drink with the meal. The mother was horrified by the ill-bred American who asked for some water. I know lots of Brits who drink all the time so I always thought it was just that family's peculiarity, but maybe it does come from somewhere else.

I have come across the idea that, if you drink while eating, the food will float on top of the liquid in your stomach and not get digested properly. It sounds like old bilge, though it's not that far from the idea that you shouldn't mix food groups (e.g. proteins and carbohydrates): I don't know of a sound scientific reason for either rule.

A couple of thoughts:

(1)- Could it be related to the Temperance movement? In the second half of the 19th century, drinking tap water in English towns and cities was not necessarily a good idea, and bottled non-alcoholic drinks would have been expensive or difficult to find, so maybe some people got into the habit of drinking nothing, as an alternative to beer or wine. Sounds plausible, but I don't have any supporting evidence: my grandparents and their siblings (born ca. 1900-1910) were brought up temperance, but by the time I knew them, they all drank tea, Vimto, or dandelion & burdock with their meals...

(2)- Maybe it's also a north-south thing? My Mediterranean colleagues all drink lots of water (together with a glass or two of wine if it's that sort of occasion) with their meals, but north Europeans generally seem to regard water and wine as mutually-exclusive alternatives. Maybe the further north you go, the less people want liquids?

In Japan it's considered bad manners to blow your nose in public.

If you have a runny nose, you may sniffle and snuffle to your heart's content ... but to actually take out a hanky or tissue and blow your nose in front of other people is really vulgar. (The only solution is to excuse yourself, go to a washroom, and do your business in private :-)

Is it the blowing part, or the hanky/tissue part? That is, is there any exception for using a hanky or tissue just to wipe your nose? And what's the status of wiping your nose with your hand or sleeve?

No wiping, either. The thought of a dirty hanky or tissue is repugnant.

I once sat through four hours of kabuki sitting next to a lovely lady in a beautiful kimono who sniffled the whole time.

Since I'm currently suffering from ignorance of this rule (not in the sense of lack of awareness but in the sense of just not doing it, because I put RSVP on them):

The receipt of an invitation carries an obligation to reply to said invitation, whether to accept or decline. (Once upon a time it was rude to include "RSVP" on an invitation because it implied that the recipients were too poorly bred to know they were obliged to reply.)

I just learned from a friend who is planning her wedding that it might be considered rude if the groom's mother's dress does not match the bride's mother's dress. She had never heard of anything like this until her future mother-in-law called her to ask if she would be bothered if the dresses didn't match in color exactly! I had never heard this either!

That sounds totally weird to me, and must be a local custom. At our wedding, our mothers were worried that they might clash: my mother kept checking with me what colour my mother-in-law might go for, so she could be sure to choose something sufficiently different.

(Maybe it's that people want to find new ways of making it obvious that they have spent far too much money on the wedding! Next they'll be recarpeting the church to match the table linen at the reception...)

Hah! Yeah, my friend is a little overwhelmed, despite having a "mellow" wedding - though who knows what that is these days.

>3 (Ladies first?)
In the 1970s it was not unusual in parts of greater London to see Indian wives walking a couple of paces behind their husbands, as protocol required.

On the other hand I am told (it may be apocryphal) that in Montenegro it was traditional for a man to walk a couple of paces behind his wife. In case there was a snake in the path!

#88, ArmyAngel: "I think my dad and I shocked some people when we went into Pizza Hut and ate our pizza with our HANDS. *gasp, shock*"

At home (Germany) we used to eat *everything* with knife and fork, except the bread at breakfast. Of course, always the European way, hands on the table at all times. We would even eat the black bread with salami etc. for supper with knife and fork. In fact, my parents still do, and we kids duly follow the rule when visiting.
I usually put out knife and forks for guests as well, even if most people don't use them anymore (psst: I don't, as well, if nobody's watching!).

If you are still around, Margd:
#36:margd: ">35 johnthefireman--Blood Diamond, Last Samurai... I hear you!" as a comment on films that were totally off the mark culturally/historically.
I thought these were the better ones of the crop? Last Samurai was patently wrong on the history part, but culturally pretty good, I thought? I only saw Blood Diamond this week, and I think it was a film that finally took its African protagonists seriously (and not has the European/American save the day, even though the end is a bit weak). Can't vouch for the accurateness of local languages presented, because I don't know any of them, but both of these films really made an *effort*! (as opposed to some American films that just slap a foreign accent on the protagonists --Schindlers List, anyone? And that was an Oscar winner. Luckily I have only watched that one in German ;-) ).
We can take this to PM/comments if you like.

Message edited by its author, Jan 4, 2008, 10:04am.

#95

I'm not sure about the north-south thing. I have rarely known water to be served with a meal in the UK. Cups of tea, or a glass of beer or soft drink for an informal meal. Wine with a formal meal.

Also by the second half of the 19th century tea prices had begun to drop and it was affordable to most. At the beginning of the Temperance Movement in the 1830s tea was far more expensive.

>105 That's funny: all branches of my family, from London to Edinburgh, routinely serve water with meals (and ask for it in restaurants).

# 105

At a formal meal with wine, water glasses should also be laid and water offered.

Of course if it is a very formal meal, there will be several glasses, one for each type of wine (white with the fish course, red with the entree, possibly a dessert wine too). There might also be finger bowls for cleaning the fingers if the fish course contained shellfish which required using the fingers. And of course, fruit should be eaten with a knife and fork (vide #104) - our dear queen is apparently an expert at peeling an apple to leave one single long spiral of skin.

#107

Sure, but I have never known water to be served as a drink. At all the formal meals I have been to everyone drinks wine. Some people may have a sip of water to cleanse their palate between courses although most do not. I have never known anyone to take it as a drink.

Obviously since the water industry started presenting bottled water as trendy I expect more people do drink water with meals. However I think that there was (and probably still is) a split between two distinct groups.

>104 GirlfromIpanema, I LIKE the other cultures in Last Samurai, Blood Diamond, and even King and I (as offbase as that one was!). Actually, as an exercise in empathy, I let my 13YO watch Blood Diamond and read Long Way home, after one of the Lost Boys visited his school. I just find it a little irritating that we have to hear the stories via recently widowed, PTSD'd, mercenaries and other disordered white guys. I mean Tom Cruise explaining the Samurai way to the Emperor? Leonardo de Caprio selflessly holding off the bad guys so the African man can escape? (Although De Caprio at least was playing a white man with some roots in Africa!) Maybe these these stories can't stand alone in the box office without the white intermediary?

If a woman wants to shake hands, it is up to her to offer her hand first. Men do not offer to shake hands with women.

The occurrence of this in The Green Dragon reminded me that one is not supposed to offer congratulations to a lady upon her engagement or wedding, because of the implication that she was pursuing the lucky man, which is something that only that "other" kind of lady would do. Rather, one offers her best wishes or something similar.

For men, on the other hand, with their being the slavering beasts that they are, there is no shame in pursuing a lady (in fact it's apparently considered disingenuous to imagine otherwise) so one does offer congratulations to a gent upon his successful suit.

#104, GirlFromIpanema: When I first went to college, I amused all of my friends by running for a plate, fork, and knife every time we ordered pizza. They said they got a lot more pizza than was fair because it took me so long to dissect it. I finally learned to just use my hands, but missed the "old ways".

I have just read through (well, skimmed) this entire thread (I'm putting off doing some essential, but very dull chores) and am horrified to think how offensive my "resting my hands on my lap at the dinner table" must have been to various cultures in which I have been privileged to dine. As children we were taught to put our knife and fork down on the plate while chewing the current mouthful and not to pick those utensils up again until said mouthful was swallowed (also never to over-fill our mouths so that if required to respond to another's comment/question we could quickly chew and swallow that which was currently being masticated); no elbows on the table (though, sensibly, now it's OK between courses) and definitely no clinking of glasses - very vulgar. It's all pretty silly really. Interesting though.

It's hard not to break some of these habits: I'm nearly always the last person to finish their food and often have to speed up when I see other guests, and the host, politely sitting with their empty plates in front of them whilst waiting for me to finish. And I shall *not* clink glasses - raise my glass? Yes; clink? No. Get into a muddle with punctuation? Often.

And has anyone mentioned the pros and cons of holding one's knife pencil-style? Or of cutting vs tearing a bread-roll with one's hands?

Thrin: "And I shall *not* clink glasses - raise my glass? Yes; clink? No. "

I was raised the same, but 99% of the people around me were not, so I am continually forced to clink wine glasses (no-no). It's OK with beer mugs (once, to start the drinking) and with champaigne (once, to celebrate the toast), but many people want to clink every time the glass/mug gets refilled. What's that all about?

Perhaps an excess of conviviality from the consumption of alcohol ??

"And has anyone mentioned the pros and cons of holding one's knife pencil-style? "

I cannot imagine how to cut meat holding a knife pencil-style. So CON ;-).