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Prisoner of Azkaban chapters 17-20 discussion

Hogwarts Express

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1foggidawn
Edited: Dec 4, 2007, 1:39pm Top

A thousand apologies for starting this thread late -- and after all the discussion we had at the end of last week, too! At any rate, let's discuss chapters 17-20 of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban:

  • Cat, Rat, and Dog
  • Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs
  • The Servant of Lord Voldemort
  • The Dementor's Kiss

  • As discussed, we will finish the last two chapters of this book next week, and we'll hold off our discussion of Goblet of Fire until after the start of the new year. Happy reading and discussing!

    2foggidawn
    Dec 4, 2007, 2:10pm Top

    I'll admit: I have a lot of stuff due this week, it being the last week of classes for me, so I didn't get through this week's chapters. I'm catching up, though, and should be back on schedule by the end of the week.

    Thoughts on chapter 17: Sirius must make for a seriously (haha) big, or at least strong, dog. He dragged Ron away like it was nothing, and apparently up the stairs, too? That's quite a dog!

    Again, Sirius: why not clear up the confusion immediately? I mean, Ron says, "If you want to kill Harry, you'll have to kill us first." Now, I'd think the obvious thing to say would be, "Oh, I don't want to kill Harry, it's the rat I'm after" -- and then explain. But no, he goes with the ambiguous "There'll be only one murder here tonight." Of course, 12 years in Azkaban = loss of social skills.

    Of course, emotions were running high: when Lupin tried to start to explain, Hermione interrupted.

    I love all of the rapid-fire revelations in this chapter.

    I'll be back with more thoughts after *ahem* I do some more reading. *sheepish look*

    3littlegeek
    Dec 4, 2007, 4:20pm Top

    I have to re-skim before I post, too, but I just want to say it really bugs that in the movie they don't explain about the animagus status of James and that his animal form is a stag.

    4foggidawn
    Dec 4, 2007, 4:48pm Top

    Thoughts on Chapter 18: (Alternate Title: Lupin Explains It All)

    If the Shrieking shack was only built when Lupin first came, it gained a reputation fairly quickly. I mean, the building can only be about thirty years old -- there should be Hogsmeade residents who remember it being built! Of course, DD could have (an probably did) have it built in secrecy, and spread stories about unfairly treated workers, murdered spouses, and all of the things that cause houses to seem haunted in the first place. Still, if it's only built as a cover for Lupin, why bother furnishing it? I guess I'm saying it would have made more sense to say that the house was already there, but the tunnel was built for Lupin's use.

    I laughed a bit about Lupin thinking that Snape's dislike of James was rooted in Quidditch.

    5Marensr
    Dec 4, 2007, 8:13pm Top

    #3 LG that bothered me too because it wasn't a time issue. They could have explained it. I think that connection to his father was one of the most important things to me about the book.

    #4 I watched the movie again recently and I was thinking how that reveal in the movie annoyed me. Why not just say it's the rat and why set the rat down? But I reread recently and it is there in the book too.

    I wondered if Lupin's comment was one of those adult comments that don't explain the real reason for things. It was interesting in the movie that they made Lupin seem a little in love with Lily too. Perhaps all the marauders were.

    I have animagus questions. Do the clothes transform with them? Do they have to find clothes? (the movie was inconsistent on that point too).

    Do you think Rowling intended Scabbers to be Pettigrew all along or came up with it when she hit book three?

    6foggidawn
    Dec 4, 2007, 9:20pm Top

    Thoughts on Chapter 19: I don't have a lot of comments here -- I basically just let myself get sucked into the story. I feel like the pacing in these chapters is really good, considering the number of surprising revelations (Lupin the Werewolf, Sirius good, Marauders as animagi, Pettigrew alive and bad . . .).

    I'm a little surprised that Harry, after hearing (in Pettigrew's presence, no less) about how Sirius escaped from Azkaban, would think sending Pettigrew there would work. Of course, knowing that he was an animagus (and I suppose that would certainly come out), I suppose they would have put him in rat-proof confinement.

    7foggidawn
    Dec 4, 2007, 9:30pm Top

    Thoughts on Chapter 20: Harry's reaction to Sirius' offer of a home always makes me smile. I always wish, for both of them, that he really had been able to move in with Sirius. It would have meant so much to both of them.

    This was a quick chapter! And now I am caught up.

    #5 -- I think that Scabbers was probably always meant to be Pettigrew. There are things that I think she changed or added as the series went along, but to me the Scabbers/Pettigrew thing seems pretty embedded.

    8compskibook
    Dec 4, 2007, 9:32pm Top

    3: I remember being very disappointed that the stag animagus/patronus connection was never discussed in the movie. Did they even explain why they all became animagi?

    4: does it say the shreiking shack was built 30 years ago, or did Lupin just start using it then. That may be when it got its reputation for being haunted.

    9foggidawn
    Dec 4, 2007, 9:35pm Top

    #8 -- Lupin says, "This house . . . the tunnel that leads to it -- they were built for my use." (PoA, Scholastic hardcover, page 353.)

    10Marensr
    Dec 4, 2007, 9:38pm Top

    I wonder if it is some sort of confusing spell put on the shack that makes people believe it has been there for a long time. It is interesting though that she doesn't give us that in the books.

    Funny how Lupin is the most stable as a person and at the same time the most dangerous of the marauders.

    11littlegeek
    Dec 4, 2007, 9:40pm Top

    Chpt 17, there are real plot holes as regards Lupin. He knows that both Sirius & Pettigrew are/were animagi. He knows that Sirius escaped Azkaban and must have done so as a dog. But he tells no one. If he really believes that Sirius was the murderer, was dangerous and was out to get Harry (which seems to be the case as he gets mad at Harry for being careless), then why the HELL would he not mention, at least to Dumbledore, that Sirius is an animagus. Both James and (he thinks) Pettigrew are dead, so what is the harm in revealing Sirius' animagus status?

    Then, once he has the map, he must see that Pettigrew is still alive and at Hogwarts. Hello! He knows he's a rat, surely he could mount a search for him. But he doesn't do it. (It's even worse in the movie, because Harry mentions to Lupin that the map doesn't work because he saw Pettigrew's name on it.)

    Well, maybe he didn't look at the map, you say? Well, that's even worse, because why doesn't he use it to find Sirius? He knows he's hanging around Hogwarts. Duh!

    And why, why does he forget to take his potion?

    12Marensr
    Dec 4, 2007, 9:44pm Top

    Those are all excellent points LG.

    In the book he offers some flimsy answer about being ashamed to tell Dumbledore what his friends had done since it would reveal he'd put their lives at risk and Dumbledore had already done so much . . .

    but you'd think as an adult who thought his friend was murdered he'd say something.

    I assumed he ran out because he saw sirius on the map before snape had the chance to bring him the potion but then why not get dumbledore?

    Actually, I am always wondering why people never go for help and fail to explain things.

    13littlegeek
    Dec 4, 2007, 9:49pm Top

    I assumed he ran out because he saw sirius on the map before snape had the chance to bring him the potion but then why not get dumbledore?

    Good point, Maren, never thought of it that way.

    They also don't explain in the movie how Snape knew where to find them all. And do they talk about Sirius almost killing Snape and James saving him? I forget.

    I still love the movie, tho, silly me.

    14Marensr
    Dec 4, 2007, 9:53pm Top

    In the book Snape explains that Lupin forgot to wipe the map so when he brought the potion he saw where they all were but then why didn't he notice Pettigrew?

    I think the movie alludes to James saving him but not how Snape was set up.

    I love the movie too. There is so much that is good in it. Like the little whomping willow scenes.

    Hey LG are you knitting anything good (completely tangential I know)?

    15foggidawn
    Dec 4, 2007, 10:02pm Top

    LG, come chat with us!

    16littlegeek
    Edited: Dec 5, 2007, 12:40am Top

    Maren, I'm knitting a hat for my niece who moved to Chicago and is freezing her behind off. She asked for a "hat with a scarf on it" so I'm making her one with a scandinavian fair isle pattern with earflaps that I am extending.

    What are you knitting, Maren?

    I'm sorry I missed you guys in the chatroom, I sing on Tuesdays.

    17LettaAvanell
    Dec 5, 2007, 12:36am Top

    #4 I always thought he meant that the house was already there but that they made the tunnel and planted the whomping willow so he could use the house.

    18Marensr
    Dec 5, 2007, 10:55am Top

    #16 LG We just got snowed on here in Chicago too so she'll need it.

    It sounds like a cute design. I have seen some hats like that lately that you can then wrap the extended earflaps around the neck. It is a great idea.

    I finshed a shrug from an old 1950s pattern and a wide lace scarf I designed for my favorite professor (who did our marriage ceremony). I started another lace scarf (why for the time of year I have no idea) I need to set them all aside and knit some hats as presents.

    We missed you too but singing is nice. I miss having a chance to sing regularly. What were you singing?

    19littlegeek
    Dec 5, 2007, 11:33am Top

    #18 I love knitting lace, but I'm still working on sox for my wedding party. My second anniversay is coming up, and still many sox to make. The next pair will be some Norweigan hose with lovely pattern.

    Those Scandinavians designs are so fun to knit.

    About singing, I'm in a quartet that sings Eastern European folk. Mostly Bulgarian and Georgian (my FAV!) but other countries, as well. It's a real challenge--so different from Western music in rhythm, harmonic structure and vocal timbre. The women I sing with are all wonderful; it's my favourite night of the week.

    20Marensr
    Dec 5, 2007, 1:14pm Top

    Ooh yay Norwegian Hose! You can wear them when you sing Bulgarian and Georgan Music. (which sounds fascinating by the way)

    I love Scandinavian patterns but then being Scandinavian myself I think I am biased.

    21littlegeek
    Dec 5, 2007, 2:01pm Top

    I'm Scandinavian, too, nostly Norwegian, but Danish as well. I think the knitting thing is genetic.

    Were she still alive, I think my Nana would be horrified that I'm chosing to sing Bulgarian! But she'd forgive me, as Nanas do.

    22Marensr
    Dec 5, 2007, 5:55pm Top

    Yeah I am 1/4 Danish but I had a Swedish/Norwegian step-grandmother as well so I am sort of pan-scandinavian. Maybe the knitting is genetic.

    Bless the Nanas!

    23littlegeek
    Dec 5, 2007, 6:17pm Top

    Anyone who has ever had to try lutefisk qualifies, imho.

    Blech!

    24foggidawn
    Dec 8, 2007, 7:37pm Top

    Don't forget -- the final discussion thread for Prisoner of Azkaban will be up on Monday! Just two chapters this time -- you can do it!

    25gpwts
    Dec 8, 2007, 9:10pm Top

    I will say that one reason Lupin may not have told Dumbledore is the fact once a friend always a friend. If one of my friends had escaped jail and I thought I knew how, I not sure I would say anything. There's still a friend, especially a good one

    26compskibook
    Dec 8, 2007, 9:24pm Top

    25: But what if you think that escaped friend had purposely caused the death of another friend?

    27gpwts
    Dec 8, 2007, 9:37pm Top

    still a best friend, a friend is a friend is a friend

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