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1doshiamit
So where are they, and what are they doing.
Dead For sure
1)Rahvin : Balefired by Rand
2)Be'lal: Balefired by Moirainne
3)Asmodean : Killed by someone, not sure who, but he's done, not being reincarnated by the DO cause of his treachery.
Might be dead
4)Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva: Was killed by a black aes sedai(Cant remember the name) who swore fealty to Rand, during the cleansing of the source. He wasnt balefired, so theoretically he can be revived.
5)Sammael: Killed by Mashadar. Havent heard anything to indicate hes still alive, but he might be resurrected.
Reincarnated:
6)Ishmael/Moridin: Killed by Rand on his third attempt at the Stone of Tear. Reincarnated as Moridin, and named Nae'blis
7)Lanfear/Cyndane: Lanfear dissapeared after going thru the Ter'angreal that takes you to the Finn. I speculate that she was stilled somehow while there, cause we see that shes a lot weaker in the power once reincarnated as Cyndane. Shes currently mindtrapped by Moridin.
8)Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima: Killed by the Green Man at the end of the EOTW, reincarnated as a woman known as Aran'gar, places herself with the Salidar Aes Sedai as Halima, and escapes in KOD just ahead of being discovered.
Alive and known wherabouts
9)Graendal: A noble in Arad Doman, the power behind the throne.
10)Semhirage: Captured by Rand al'Thor and Cadsuane.
11) Moghedien: Currently Mindtrapped by Ishmael. I doubt she bothers with a fake identity that would be significant. She is the spider, happier in the background.
Alive and unknown: These are the two, that I really want to know and hope someone out there has some good theories.
12)Mesaana: In the white tower. I believe she must be disguised as a Brown, there are a couple of hints when she appears to Alviarin that shes wearing bronze. Also she was a teacher back in the day, started a bunch of schools to teach about the dark one, a brown makes sense, but who?
13)Demandred: This is a really interesting one...cause he could be anyone. Apparently Robert Jordan confirmed that he was not Mazrim Taim, so there goes the prime suspect.
To me at least a grea deal of appeal to the series is the Forsaken. These are a phenomenal group of villains.
Dead For sure
1)Rahvin : Balefired by Rand
2)Be'lal: Balefired by Moirainne
3)Asmodean : Killed by someone, not sure who, but he's done, not being reincarnated by the DO cause of his treachery.
Might be dead
4)Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva: Was killed by a black aes sedai(Cant remember the name) who swore fealty to Rand, during the cleansing of the source. He wasnt balefired, so theoretically he can be revived.
5)Sammael: Killed by Mashadar. Havent heard anything to indicate hes still alive, but he might be resurrected.
Reincarnated:
6)Ishmael/Moridin: Killed by Rand on his third attempt at the Stone of Tear. Reincarnated as Moridin, and named Nae'blis
7)Lanfear/Cyndane: Lanfear dissapeared after going thru the Ter'angreal that takes you to the Finn. I speculate that she was stilled somehow while there, cause we see that shes a lot weaker in the power once reincarnated as Cyndane. Shes currently mindtrapped by Moridin.
8)Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima: Killed by the Green Man at the end of the EOTW, reincarnated as a woman known as Aran'gar, places herself with the Salidar Aes Sedai as Halima, and escapes in KOD just ahead of being discovered.
Alive and known wherabouts
9)Graendal: A noble in Arad Doman, the power behind the throne.
10)Semhirage: Captured by Rand al'Thor and Cadsuane.
11) Moghedien: Currently Mindtrapped by Ishmael. I doubt she bothers with a fake identity that would be significant. She is the spider, happier in the background.
Alive and unknown: These are the two, that I really want to know and hope someone out there has some good theories.
12)Mesaana: In the white tower. I believe she must be disguised as a Brown, there are a couple of hints when she appears to Alviarin that shes wearing bronze. Also she was a teacher back in the day, started a bunch of schools to teach about the dark one, a brown makes sense, but who?
13)Demandred: This is a really interesting one...cause he could be anyone. Apparently Robert Jordan confirmed that he was not Mazrim Taim, so there goes the prime suspect.
To me at least a grea deal of appeal to the series is the Forsaken. These are a phenomenal group of villains.
2MarcoGaidin
I agree. They are some of the best villians written, simply because of their oh so human faults and pride/greed.
I only have problem with them: they were some of the most powerful Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends and they are getting their asses handed to them. By a shepherd...
You are spot on, I think, on points 1-11.
Interesting thing about Sammael:
Apparently RJ said at a signing that "...Sammael is toast. Mashadar killed him..."
But in KoD we get an idea that this might not be true. Someone orders Trollocs and Myrdraal to attack Rand in the Manor house in Tear. Morridin claims it was Sammael or someone that looks like him. {KoD Chapter 3} We know Morridin is very...upset...at this. {KoD Chapter 20-21}
However, only two Forsaken are known, to us and Rand at least, to be able to track ta'veren using the Pattern. They are/were Lanfear and Ishmael.
That raises the question: who sent the attack and how did they find Rand? From a hate pov, Cyndane, Sammael and Demandred hate(d) Rand/LTT the most. Cyndane is mindtrapped so no luck there. Sammael is supposed to be dead and that leaves Demandred.
RJ did say that Demandred is not Taim.
Personally I believe that he is part of the chaos that is infecting Ghealdean, Murandy and Tarabon, thinking specifically of the Prophet. Who better to egg on the most insane chap around than one of the Forsaken? Let the Lord of Chaos rule and all that.
I think he's controlling Taim, maybe with the promise of making him a Chosen himself...? It is in line with standard Chosen MO: Find a power base, consolidate, cause havoc.
Messana: I agree with you. The teacher role, Brown/Bronze clothing. I am at a loss as to who she might be/maskerading as. Obviously someone with enough say in the Tower to influence decisions, but far enough in the background not o stand out.
I wonder if the Aes Sedai leading the purge would stumble on her? That would make for an interesting scene. Went hunting Black Ajah and caught a Forsaken...
One other thought: in KoD Chapter 3 when the Forsaken meet there are 8 forsaken present: Aran'gar, Cyndane, Morridin, Moghedien, Demandred, Graendal, Semirhage & Mesaana. But there are 11 chairs.
Sammael, Asmodean and Oran'gar?
I think it's time the Forsaken step up to the plate and start kicking some rear ends!
I only have problem with them: they were some of the most powerful Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends and they are getting their asses handed to them. By a shepherd...
You are spot on, I think, on points 1-11.
Interesting thing about Sammael:
Apparently RJ said at a signing that "...Sammael is toast. Mashadar killed him..."
But in KoD we get an idea that this might not be true. Someone orders Trollocs and Myrdraal to attack Rand in the Manor house in Tear. Morridin claims it was Sammael or someone that looks like him. {KoD Chapter 3} We know Morridin is very...upset...at this. {KoD Chapter 20-21}
However, only two Forsaken are known, to us and Rand at least, to be able to track ta'veren using the Pattern. They are/were Lanfear and Ishmael.
That raises the question: who sent the attack and how did they find Rand? From a hate pov, Cyndane, Sammael and Demandred hate(d) Rand/LTT the most. Cyndane is mindtrapped so no luck there. Sammael is supposed to be dead and that leaves Demandred.
RJ did say that Demandred is not Taim.
Personally I believe that he is part of the chaos that is infecting Ghealdean, Murandy and Tarabon, thinking specifically of the Prophet. Who better to egg on the most insane chap around than one of the Forsaken? Let the Lord of Chaos rule and all that.
I think he's controlling Taim, maybe with the promise of making him a Chosen himself...? It is in line with standard Chosen MO: Find a power base, consolidate, cause havoc.
Messana: I agree with you. The teacher role, Brown/Bronze clothing. I am at a loss as to who she might be/maskerading as. Obviously someone with enough say in the Tower to influence decisions, but far enough in the background not o stand out.
I wonder if the Aes Sedai leading the purge would stumble on her? That would make for an interesting scene. Went hunting Black Ajah and caught a Forsaken...
One other thought: in KoD Chapter 3 when the Forsaken meet there are 8 forsaken present: Aran'gar, Cyndane, Morridin, Moghedien, Demandred, Graendal, Semirhage & Mesaana. But there are 11 chairs.
Sammael, Asmodean and Oran'gar?
I think it's time the Forsaken step up to the plate and start kicking some rear ends!
3doshiamit
You are right about the Forsaken getting whipped, especially at the cleansing of the source. Thats the only time more than 2 of them are facing Rand and friends at the same time. I really like that sequence, however unlikely that these guys would get their asses handed to them, by Aes Sedai and Asha'man who are nowhere close to being as skilled as they are. They were linked but still.
4MarcoGaidin
Heh.
At first I thought that Jordan might be underplaying their strengths, but we are one book short of the finale and still no real Super Forsaken power.
Would like to see Demandred go up against Rand. I think LTT would finally lose it (completely) and take Rand over....for good maybe?
Of all the Forsaken I believe LTT/Rand hates(d) Demandred the most.
I'm still stuck on the 11 chairs and 8 Forsaken thing. I wonder if new Forsaken would be recruited or if the DO would reincarnate Asmo, Sammael and Aginor?
At first I thought that Jordan might be underplaying their strengths, but we are one book short of the finale and still no real Super Forsaken power.
Would like to see Demandred go up against Rand. I think LTT would finally lose it (completely) and take Rand over....for good maybe?
Of all the Forsaken I believe LTT/Rand hates(d) Demandred the most.
I'm still stuck on the 11 chairs and 8 Forsaken thing. I wonder if new Forsaken would be recruited or if the DO would reincarnate Asmo, Sammael and Aginor?
6doshiamit
Thats very interesting... Do we have new Forsaken/Chosen. Why couldnt someone from this age be a Chosen, no reason why someone couldnt be elevated. In my opinion the most effective Villain seen so far has been Alviarin. By a huge margin. Until Book 10 when Elaida is able to get a measure of revenge, she is one of the only villains to accomplish what she sets out to more often than not. Less people know who exactly she is than any other villain(Other than Galina and the mysterious 3rd member of the Supreme Council, no one but the Chosen know who she is). She would make a great chosen, and without question has been more effective for the DO than Asmodean, Moghedien, Be'lal, Aginor, probably even Sammael and Rahvin.
Taim is obviously a darkfriend(though I wasnt completely convinced till the end of KOD with the "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" thing). There was also the plot that Elayne and Nyaneve uncovered at the Stone of Tear. They chose to go to Tanchico, but Moiraine was convinced freeing Taim was a more likely plan for the Black Ajah. He subsequently escaped, and its never been clear exactly how he managed that so its quite conceivable, that he was taken to Shayol Ghul and either turned to the DO, or he submits to him and is made forsaken.
Taim is obviously a darkfriend(though I wasnt completely convinced till the end of KOD with the "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" thing). There was also the plot that Elayne and Nyaneve uncovered at the Stone of Tear. They chose to go to Tanchico, but Moiraine was convinced freeing Taim was a more likely plan for the Black Ajah. He subsequently escaped, and its never been clear exactly how he managed that so its quite conceivable, that he was taken to Shayol Ghul and either turned to the DO, or he submits to him and is made forsaken.
7doshiamit
Apparently theres a theory on the idea of new forsaken at theoryland, just saw it, pretty interesting read
http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=126&theo=2411
http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=126&theo=2411
8liselle40
that's a different idea: Alviarin as the Chosen. but i think Taim is a more likely candidate because he is much more influential for recruiting for the DO. Alviarin has fallen from, how say?, grace? with the DO and Taim still has a lot of followers.
9MarcoGaidin
I absolutely agree with the idea that Alviarin is easily the "best" villian out there at the moment. She seems to be able to put some real spokes in the Wheel as it were, especially considering where she is operating from.
For sheer audacity and guts she is ahead by a long shot.
I personally think that strength in the OP is a high priority though. Taim seems to have the muscles, though definitely not the game. He's too obsessed with himself and hating Rand. Alviarin is all out bad and for the greater good of the DO, though still leaving room for her own cut of the pie.
She is however weak in the OP when compared to other channelers. Please note, before I get flamed, that I can't quite recall her actual strength as I can't remember if it's even mentioned.
Getting to be Keeper was more for her assisting Elaida than strength as seems to be the case with all Keepers.
I do however feel that she has the brains and the duplicity to nail a spot.
Maybe the DO/Morridin will keep the others on their toes with some noobies fighting for spots at the big boy/girl table.
Only one book to go though and TG is around the corner...would it be wise from a time pow? Why not rather reincarnate the losers and raise a bag load of Dreadlords?
For sheer audacity and guts she is ahead by a long shot.
I personally think that strength in the OP is a high priority though. Taim seems to have the muscles, though definitely not the game. He's too obsessed with himself and hating Rand. Alviarin is all out bad and for the greater good of the DO, though still leaving room for her own cut of the pie.
She is however weak in the OP when compared to other channelers. Please note, before I get flamed, that I can't quite recall her actual strength as I can't remember if it's even mentioned.
Getting to be Keeper was more for her assisting Elaida than strength as seems to be the case with all Keepers.
I do however feel that she has the brains and the duplicity to nail a spot.
Maybe the DO/Morridin will keep the others on their toes with some noobies fighting for spots at the big boy/girl table.
Only one book to go though and TG is around the corner...would it be wise from a time pow? Why not rather reincarnate the losers and raise a bag load of Dreadlords?
10doshiamit
I wonder.....the 13 forsaken that were bound in Shayol Ghul....Were they the only channelers tied to the DO in the AOL? Or even necessarily the most powerful? Seems unlikely considering the sheer numbers of people who could channel at the time. If I remember correctly during one of Ishmael/Moridins POV scenes he mentions how the DO used to have his minions compete with each other and many died doing this.
Considering this isnt it likely that some of the forsaken left really werent all that powerful, they were simply the dregs left at the end? Im thinking of all 13 again and in terms of power, and ability there is Ishmael, Lanfear, Demandred, Semhirage and Sammael who seem to be clearly far more powerful, ruthless, and capable than Moghedien, Mesana, Asmodean, Aginor, Balthamel. Im not so sure about Rahvin or Be'Lal, they got whacked pretty quick, but they seem middling to me, stronger than the 2nd 5, weaker than the 1st.
Graendal confuses me though not sure where shed fit, though Id be inclined to put her in the first group.
Considering this isnt it likely that some of the forsaken left really werent all that powerful, they were simply the dregs left at the end? Im thinking of all 13 again and in terms of power, and ability there is Ishmael, Lanfear, Demandred, Semhirage and Sammael who seem to be clearly far more powerful, ruthless, and capable than Moghedien, Mesana, Asmodean, Aginor, Balthamel. Im not so sure about Rahvin or Be'Lal, they got whacked pretty quick, but they seem middling to me, stronger than the 2nd 5, weaker than the 1st.
Graendal confuses me though not sure where shed fit, though Id be inclined to put her in the first group.
11MarcoGaidin
I think it is mentioned that the 13 left were the most cunning and usefull to the DO.
Ishmael is mentioned on many occassions to be the strongest, most powerful of the Forsaken. He was as strong, some said stronger, than LTT, and we know he was Headboy of the channelers as such. Holding the seat of Tamrylin and all that.
Sammael and Demandred were close to LTT's strength. Lanfear was strong and so was Semi.
I think that there were a lot of Forsaken. Many died fighting each other and others died fighting the champions of Light.
What set the 13 Forsaken appart was their secondary skills.
Sammael and Demandred were excpetional generals and I believe Be'lal and Rhavin were pretty good as well. The DO would need the best generals. Be'lal and Rhavin were especially good administrators as well.
Aginor as we well know was probably the best genetisist(sp) of the Age. He did create most (all?) of the Shadwospawn...
Graendal's abiltities at Compulsion were legendary and she struck many telling blows using it.
Semi - well I think we all know what her fave pastime was.
Lanfrear was one of the DO's most fervent supporters and the Queen of the World of Dreams. Moghedien was even better at it and they used it well.
The ones that confuse me are Mesaana, Asmo and Balthamal. They do not appear to have any real secondary powers as such.
That leads me back to a Second Chosen or something like that - Taim seems a capable general and an inspiring leader. Alviarin could manage a territory, but neither has real Talents - that we know of at least.
I believe the DO would rather reincarnate the ones he can and use these as powerful Dreadlords.
Competition is good though and with a decent angreal they could play with the big boys.
Ishmael is mentioned on many occassions to be the strongest, most powerful of the Forsaken. He was as strong, some said stronger, than LTT, and we know he was Headboy of the channelers as such. Holding the seat of Tamrylin and all that.
Sammael and Demandred were close to LTT's strength. Lanfear was strong and so was Semi.
I think that there were a lot of Forsaken. Many died fighting each other and others died fighting the champions of Light.
What set the 13 Forsaken appart was their secondary skills.
Sammael and Demandred were excpetional generals and I believe Be'lal and Rhavin were pretty good as well. The DO would need the best generals. Be'lal and Rhavin were especially good administrators as well.
Aginor as we well know was probably the best genetisist(sp) of the Age. He did create most (all?) of the Shadwospawn...
Graendal's abiltities at Compulsion were legendary and she struck many telling blows using it.
Semi - well I think we all know what her fave pastime was.
Lanfrear was one of the DO's most fervent supporters and the Queen of the World of Dreams. Moghedien was even better at it and they used it well.
The ones that confuse me are Mesaana, Asmo and Balthamal. They do not appear to have any real secondary powers as such.
That leads me back to a Second Chosen or something like that - Taim seems a capable general and an inspiring leader. Alviarin could manage a territory, but neither has real Talents - that we know of at least.
I believe the DO would rather reincarnate the ones he can and use these as powerful Dreadlords.
Competition is good though and with a decent angreal they could play with the big boys.
12liselle40
I think that they weren't the most powerful because Nynaeve has bested a couple, certainly Moghidian, and isn't Alivia a lot more powerful than Nynaeve? also, there suddenly seems to be quite a few really powerful channelers lately, at least for this Age, and it seems that the channelers of the AOL were so powerful that this Age's people don't really know how powerful they were. am i making sense? sorry if i'm not, but i'm trying.
Semirhage was also a really good healer, i think Jordan states that in CoT.
I think Asmodean is just riding the rests' coattails.
Semirhage was also a really good healer, i think Jordan states that in CoT.
I think Asmodean is just riding the rests' coattails.
13MarcoGaidin
Problem is we know that Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene are flukes. They are more powerful than any AS seen for something lke a thousand years.
So they, with Alivia and the grandmother they found that's stronger than Nynaeve, are the exceptions and not the norm.
People of that strength stand out and are revered.
Nynaeve is also not as strong as Rand, Ishy or Lanfear. She got Rahvin by a stroke of luck, using angreals. Moghidien was hers, fair enough.
Fact is, power and cunning rule, maybe even in equal meassure, but you need the muscles to be noticed and the strength to defend you position amongst the Chosen.
So they, with Alivia and the grandmother they found that's stronger than Nynaeve, are the exceptions and not the norm.
People of that strength stand out and are revered.
Nynaeve is also not as strong as Rand, Ishy or Lanfear. She got Rahvin by a stroke of luck, using angreals. Moghidien was hers, fair enough.
Fact is, power and cunning rule, maybe even in equal meassure, but you need the muscles to be noticed and the strength to defend you position amongst the Chosen.
14doshiamit
Lets talk power... A very incomplete list of characters and where I think they would be relative to each other in strength in the power.
Male:
3rd agers
Rand: 10
The Dragon obviously the strongest
Taim:9
Rand remarks that Taim can hold almost as much as him
Logain: 9
Does the same for Logain
Narishma(I think hes going to be real important, as the guy who followed the dragon to draw callandor) :8
Forsaken
Ishmael:10
Strongest of the Forsaken
Demandred: 9.5
I think hes next in power, also in the books theres a mention of how he was just behind LTT in everything, even stergnth.
Sammael : 9
Rahvin :7.5
Aginor: 6.5
I dont know why, but I got the impression, that he was more about the mind and his studies, than he was about the power.
Asmodean: 5 There seems to be a certain contempt the others hold him in, which I think might have to do with how much weaker he is than the rest.
Balthamel: ???
Other than he was a historian and a lech I dont think we know anything at all about him.
Belal:???
Do not know much about his power at all. Hes supposedly the Machiavelli of the bunch, but I dont think we know anything abut his power.
Female
3rd agers
Alivia 10
Sharina 10
Talaan 10
These 3 are the strongest so Im assuming they are as strong as Lanfear.
Nynaeve 9.8
I could be wrong but the way I read the books there was a diff between her strength and the others, but it wasnt much.
Egwene: 9
Elayne: 9
Cadsuane: 8.75
Shes supposedly right up there, but all that most potential in a 100 years stuff means shes got to be just below Eg. and El.
Someryn(?) :8.5
The Shaidoi Aiel who wore finger rings like Sevanna, and also like Sevanna was all about the cleavage
Aviendha: 8.5
Therava 8.25
Super Strong Aes Sedai like Moiraine, Siuan(pre stilling), Lelaine, Romanda, Elaida etc. 8
Amys: 7.5
Reanne Corly and some of the other strong Kin: 6
Various Windfinders, who werent as strong as the 3 really young channelers amongst the seafolk who uised the bowl of winds. Caire, Tebraille, Renaile etc. 6
Siuan and Leane(post stilling): 3
Sorilea: 3
Morgase : 1
Forsaken
Lanfear(pre recycling)10
Well known as the strongest of the female forsaken.
Lanfear(post recycling) 9
Graendal sees she stronger than she is, but Mesaana says she isnt as strong as Lanfear was.
Graendal : 8
Semhirage:7
Mesaana: 7
Im not sure where but I got the impression that Grendal is stronger and Semhirage and Mesana were more or less equal in the power.
Moghedien: 6
I dont know about her. As much more as she knows about the power than Nynaeve, theres no way they should have been able to beat her. Nynaeve has to be much more powerful than she.
Male:
3rd agers
Rand: 10
The Dragon obviously the strongest
Taim:9
Rand remarks that Taim can hold almost as much as him
Logain: 9
Does the same for Logain
Narishma(I think hes going to be real important, as the guy who followed the dragon to draw callandor) :8
Forsaken
Ishmael:10
Strongest of the Forsaken
Demandred: 9.5
I think hes next in power, also in the books theres a mention of how he was just behind LTT in everything, even stergnth.
Sammael : 9
Rahvin :7.5
Aginor: 6.5
I dont know why, but I got the impression, that he was more about the mind and his studies, than he was about the power.
Asmodean: 5 There seems to be a certain contempt the others hold him in, which I think might have to do with how much weaker he is than the rest.
Balthamel: ???
Other than he was a historian and a lech I dont think we know anything at all about him.
Belal:???
Do not know much about his power at all. Hes supposedly the Machiavelli of the bunch, but I dont think we know anything abut his power.
Female
3rd agers
Alivia 10
Sharina 10
Talaan 10
These 3 are the strongest so Im assuming they are as strong as Lanfear.
Nynaeve 9.8
I could be wrong but the way I read the books there was a diff between her strength and the others, but it wasnt much.
Egwene: 9
Elayne: 9
Cadsuane: 8.75
Shes supposedly right up there, but all that most potential in a 100 years stuff means shes got to be just below Eg. and El.
Someryn(?) :8.5
The Shaidoi Aiel who wore finger rings like Sevanna, and also like Sevanna was all about the cleavage
Aviendha: 8.5
Therava 8.25
Super Strong Aes Sedai like Moiraine, Siuan(pre stilling), Lelaine, Romanda, Elaida etc. 8
Amys: 7.5
Reanne Corly and some of the other strong Kin: 6
Various Windfinders, who werent as strong as the 3 really young channelers amongst the seafolk who uised the bowl of winds. Caire, Tebraille, Renaile etc. 6
Siuan and Leane(post stilling): 3
Sorilea: 3
Morgase : 1
Forsaken
Lanfear(pre recycling)10
Well known as the strongest of the female forsaken.
Lanfear(post recycling) 9
Graendal sees she stronger than she is, but Mesaana says she isnt as strong as Lanfear was.
Graendal : 8
Semhirage:7
Mesaana: 7
Im not sure where but I got the impression that Grendal is stronger and Semhirage and Mesana were more or less equal in the power.
Moghedien: 6
I dont know about her. As much more as she knows about the power than Nynaeve, theres no way they should have been able to beat her. Nynaeve has to be much more powerful than she.
15liselle40
what about Nicola? i know that she's close to being as powerful as Egwene. can't stand the her as a person, love her as a character. she's one that i love to hate, i suppose, but you can't say she's weak. plus she has the Fortelling, even though she abuses it. but anyway, she should be on there.