HomeGroupsTalkZeitgeist
This site uses cookies to deliver our services, improve performance, for analytics, and (if not signed in) for advertising. By using LibraryThing you acknowledge that you have read and understand our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. Your use of the site and services is subject to these policies and terms.
  • LibraryThing
  • Book discussions
  • Your LibraryThing
  • Join to start using.

Israel #2

This is a continuation of the topic Israel.

Pro and Con

Join LibraryThing to post.

1margd
Sep 3, 2018, 9:38am Top

U.S. Sounds Abbas Out on Palestinian-Jordan Confederation
Gwen Ackerman and Fadwa Hodali | September 2, 2018

...Abbas told the U.S. that he would agree to a trilateral confederation that includes Israel. Decades ago, Israeli officials mooted the notion of a confederation between the Palestinians and Jordan, but not one that would include Israel.

...the Jordanian minister for media affairs said the idea of a confederation between Jordan and Palestine isn’t a subject of discussion. Jordan’s position is based on the proposed two-state solution and establishment of a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital

...Trump administration said it will halt contributions to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees

...The U.S. earlier this year relocated its embassy in Israel to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv

...A confederacy with Jordan would likely mean an end to Palestinian aspirations for independence. The idea has long been advocated by Israelis who are generally opposed to an independent Palestinian state. Gideon Sa’ar, a member of the Likud party, recently floated it as a way to leave the Palestinians with less than full sovereignty.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-02/abbas-says-u-s-proposed-confe...

3margd
Sep 8, 2018, 3:31pm Top

New Cuts In Medical Aid To Palestinians By Trump Administration
Daniel Estrin | September 7, 2018

...A State Department official told NPR the administration is pulling $25 million it had planned to give to the East Jerusalem Hospital Network, a group of six hospitals, some church-run, providing care primarily to Palestinians.

In past years, U.S. funding covered medical costs for Palestinians to go to these hospitals for treatment unavailable in the West Bank and Gaza — from cardiac and eye surgeries to neonatal intensive care and children's dialysis (and cancer), according to the World Health Organization.

...Last week, officials said the U.S. would no longer give money to the United Nations agency running schools and health clinics for Palestinian refugees, amounting to a $300 million cut in expected aid. The week before that, officials said the U.S. was slashing more than $200 million for humanitarian and development aid in the West Bank and Gaza.

The money for East Jerusalem hospitals was one of the last batches of aid to the Palestinians the administration had been considering whether to release.

In a phone call with U.S. Jewish community leaders and rabbis Thursday ahead of the Jewish new year, Trump said he's "stopped massive amounts of money" to the Palestinians, whom he has accused of showing disrespect to the U.S.

...The Palestinian Authority cut ties with the administration after Trump recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Palestinians also have claims in the city.

"The United States was paying them tremendous amounts of money," Trump said, according to a White House transcript of the call. "And I'd say, you'll get money, but we're not paying you until we make a deal. If we don't make a deal, we're not paying. And that's going to have a little impact.

"I said, "By the way, did you ever do that before?" I said to some of the past negotiators. "Did you ever do that before? Did you ever use the money angle?" They said, "No, sir. We thought it would be disrespectful." I said, "I don't think it's disrespectful at all. I think it's disrespectful when people don't come to the table," Trump said.

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/07/645682793/new-cuts-in-medical-aid-to-palestinians...

4margd
Sep 9, 2018, 9:15am Top

As Israel moves right, young American Jews target Birthright tours in protest
F. Brinley Bruton / Sep.09.2018

An American Jewish anti-occupation group, IfNotNow, is protesting tours that they say ignore Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territories.

..IfNotNow, which was founded in 2014 during the last Israeli war in the Gaza, now works in 16 cities in the U.S. and says that up to 10,000 people have attended its 350 protests in the last two-and-a-half years. Among their targets have been powerful pro-Israel lobby group AIPAC, and the network of Jewish camps, Camp Ramah. They also protested when President Donald Trump’s former adviser Steve Bannon spoke at the Zionist Organization of America, and organized a demonstration in Washington after the U.S. announced it was moving its embassy to Jerusalem, which infuriated Palestinians.

According to Rabbi Sharon Brous of Los Angeles, a who leads a progressive non-denominational congregation in Los Angeles, IfNotNow is part of a generational shift among Jewish Americans who are alienated by signs of growing illiberalism in Israel.

...A major 2013 Pew survey of American Jews showed that only a quarter of those aged 18 to 29 thought the Israeli government was “making a sincere effort to bring about a peace settlement with the Palestinians.”...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-moves-right-young-american-jews-target...

5margd
Sep 10, 2018, 3:10am Top

NY real estate investor/landlords try their hand at "honest broker".
How can this not drive Palestinians to UN? They'd be nuts to depend any longer on US.

Trump administration to close Palestinian leadership's office in a bid to mount pressure over peace deal
Lukas Mikelionis |

...national security adviser John Bolton is expected to...announce...on Monday.

“The United States will always stand with our friend and ally, Israel,” Bolton is expected to say, according to the prepared remarks. “The Trump administration will not keep the office open when the Palestinians refuse to start direct and meaningful negotiations with Israel.”

The national security adviser is also planning to threaten the International Criminal Court in the same prepared remarks, saying the U.S. will impose sanctions against the organization if it investigates the U.S. and Israel, the Journal reported.

...The president demands that the Palestinian Authority stop payments to Palestinians held in Israeli prisons and their families and to rein in anti-Israel incitement by the media...

...November...Then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson deemed the PLO responsible for violating a provision in U.S. law that prohibits the group from trying to get the International Criminal Court to prosecute Israelis for crimes against Palestinians. The penalty of such violation is closing down of the office in Washington.

The accusation of breaking the U.S. law came after Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said in a September United Nations General Assembly speech that the Palestinians had “called on the International Criminal Court to open an investigation and to prosecute Israeli officials for their involvement in settlement activities and aggressions against our people.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/09/10/trump-administration-to-close-palesti...

6RickHarsch
Sep 10, 2018, 5:03am Top

>5 margd: Do you think that the US is perhaps draining itself of power in the long run with this crazed renegade behavior?

7lriley
Sep 10, 2018, 8:42am Top

The squeeze is on and the Trump administration is in lockstep with Netanyahu's govt. to steal more Palestinian land and deprive Palestinians of any kind of rights. Taking aid money away is equivalent to sanctioning--then closing off avenues of redress and claiming the Palestinians won't work with them to hurt themselves with the idea of depriving them of any kind of legal justice. Israel under Netanyahu = apartheid like regime--that they've got the Trump administration to whatever they want to do is to our disgrace.

8margd
Sep 10, 2018, 10:14am Top

Après Trump, America will have much work to do.
Allies and others will remember their experiences with Trump (hopefully a hiccup) for a very long time, I'm afraid.
I never, ever thought I'd see Canada--CANADA--considered a security risk. Nor Mexico, Europe...

9lriley
Edited: Sep 10, 2018, 10:35am Top

IMO Trump has more in common with the kind of strongmen who have no qualms about eliminating their opposition. That appeals to some people particularly on the right. I don't think it's any accident that Neo-nazi's and Klan members think he's great. Even though both are under republican control he is hamstrung by the courts and congress--entities that try to keep him on the right side of the rule of law. He doesn't like that. I think in fact he's kind of jealous that he can't get away in his own country what Putin for instance can get away with in Russia. Think again about the arrogant and anti-American comment of his--he could gun someone down in the street and get away with it---be above the law. The other part of it is Trump is dumber than a rock and Putin isn't. I look at Trump as our version of Yeltsin though the Donald is a teetotaler--considering though that he sucks down at least a dozen diet cokes a day he'd be better off boozing a bit--those diet cokes are leading him towards early dementia.

We should talk about his eating habits some time. They are pretty bizarre and makes me think anyway of eccentrics and phobics like Howard Hughes.

10johnthefireman
Sep 17, 2018, 2:51am Top

This week, the World Week for Peace in Israel and Palestine (WWPPI) is taking place (16-23 September), which includes the International Day of Prayer for Peace on 21 September.

11margd
Oct 10, 2018, 5:18am Top

U.S. Student, Barred From Israel Over Boycott, Goes to Court
Isabel Kershner | Oct. 9, 2018

JERUSALEM — As a student at the University of Florida, Lara Alqasem served a recent stint as president of the tiny local chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine.

The group typically had a single-digit membership, and one of its more notable political activities appears to have been a campaign to boycott an Israeli brand of hummus. A Facebook event post indicated that all of 19 people showed up for the campaign’s launch.

But that seems to have been enough for the Israeli government to bar Ms. Alqasem from entering the country under a 2017 law intended to combat the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement, a loose network whose goals include pressuring Israel into ending the occupation of the West Bank. Israeli officials consider the B.D.S. movement to be anti-Semitic and bent on Israel’s destruction, since it also promotes the right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees to their former homes...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/world/middleeast/lara-alqasem-israel-ban.html

12margd
Oct 22, 2018, 8:01am Top

Jordan seeks to end Israel land lease
21 October 2018

Jordan says it plans to end a lease of two areas of land to Israel that was agreed in annexes to the 1994 peace treaty between the two countries.

The areas are Naharayim in the north and Tzofar in the south, known as Baqura and Ghamr in Arabic.

The lease governing them was for 25 years and had been due for renewal.

...a total of about 405 hectares (1,000 acres), cultivated by Israeli farmers. (30 in the southern location)

...Under the terms of the annex to the peace deal, the lease would be extended automatically unless one party gave notice a year before the lease ended, leading to talks on the matter.

...Israel could use the deal that allows planes travelling between Europe and Jordan to fly over Israel as leverage in persuading Jordan to renew the lease.

...pressure from Jordanian MPs and the Jordanian public not to renew the lease for the two areas...over issues including the status of Jerusalem and the lack of progress on a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-45933805

13margd
Oct 29, 2018, 9:58am Top

The Tone-Deaf Israeli Reactions to the Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting
Jay Michaelson | 10.29.18

From refusing to call Tree of Life a synagogue to saying the massacre should inspire Jews to immigrate to Israel, some responses from Israel have underscored how far apart we are.

...To be sure, most responses to the massacre were sincere and uncontroversial. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as well as all of Israel’s leading politicians, issued heartfelt and apolitical responses to the massacre.

...Rabbi David Lau, Israel’s Ashkenazic chief rabbi (a governmental position), declined to call Tree of Life Synagogue a synagogue, describing it instead as “a place with a profound Jewish flavor.” Other ultra-Orthodox newspapers have followed suit, referring to it as a “Jewish center.”

To American Jews who care about Israel, that’s a painful reminder that Reform, Conservative, and other non-Orthodox Jewish denominations are not recognized by the Jewish state. The state does not recognize conversions performed by non-Orthodox rabbis. And plans for a non-Orthodox prayer space at the Western Wall have been floated and canceled for a generation now—most recently by Netanyahu, who flatly broke his promise to American Jewish leaders to create one last year.

Nor is the tone-deafness exclusively on the right. Israel’s opposition leader, Avi Gabbay, said the attack should inspire “the Jews of the United States to immigrate more and more to Israel, because this is their home.”

Meanwhile, Diaspora Affairs Minister Naftali Bennett headed to Pittsburgh to offer condolences, saying, in part, “our hearts go out to the families of those killed, and we pray for the swift recovery of the injured, as we pray this is the last such event. Jewish blood is not free.”

First, sending the ultranationalist Bennett to “comfort” mostly liberal American Jews rubs salt in the wound. Bennett, perhaps more than any other Israeli politician, has legitimized open racism against Arabs, sworn his opposition to a two-state solution with Palestinians, and moved the “Overton window” of Israeli nationalism far to the right. Thanks to his party, Jewish Home, comments that would have been too racist for polite conversation a decade ago are now routinely made on the floor of the Knesset.

Second, Bennett’s line about “Jewish blood” is both creepily blood-nationalist and a common justification for harsh military responses against terrorists, their families, their neighbors, and even their whole villages.

What revenge is Bennett planning to take against Robert Bowers, anyway? Bennett’s rhetoric is tone-deaf, alienating to most American Jews, and part of the very hypernationalist crisis that brought this tragedy into being in the first place.

These and other comments point to a vast and growing gap between Israel and the majority of American Jews.

14prosfilaes
Oct 30, 2018, 12:16am Top

>21 ...Israel could use the deal that allows planes travelling between Europe and Jordan to fly over Israel as leverage in persuading Jordan to renew the lease.

This is stupid. Planes travelling between two places should generally be free to take reasonable routes. That should not be a hammer used against other nations.

15margd
Nov 1, 2018, 7:17am Top

Analysis The Most Logical Solution to the Gaza Water Crisis Is the Most Political One
Amira Hass | Oct 16, 2018

The root of the problem is political, namely Israel’s attitude to the Strip as a separate entity with an autonomous water economy...

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-the-most-logical-...

__________________________________________________​

Part 1 of 2.
Gaza's drinking water spurs blue baby syndrome, serious illnesses
Sandy Tolanby | 29 Oct 2018

Contaminated and scarce water owing to Israel's brutal siege and bombing of infrastructure leads to death and disease...

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/gaza-drinking-water-spurs-blue-baby-s...

Part 2 of 2.
How can Gaza's contaminated water catastrophe be solved?
Sandy Tolanby | 30 Oct 2018

Barely three percent of Gaza's drinking water wells is fit for human consumption, and the crisis is claiming lives...

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/gaza-contaminated-water-catastrophe-s...

16johnthefireman
Nov 13, 2018, 2:12am Top

History suppressed: Censorship in Israel's archives (Al Jazeera)

Sealed in Israel's archives and libraries are troves of Palestinian books, documents, photographs and films that were looted from Palestinian institutions and personal archives by Jewish militias and later, the Israeli military...

What begins with looting and appropriation, continues with a system of censorship and historical revisionism in the archives. The origin of Palestinian material is often erased and replaced with terminology that fits the archivist's world view... "the materials go through a process of rewriting to aid or benefit the Zionist narrative"...


17margd
Nov 13, 2018, 7:11am Top

Cost of Botched Gaza Spy Mission? Israel’s Back on Brink of War
David M. Halbfinger | Nov. 12, 2018

...After a botched intelligence mission by undercover commandos left seven Palestinian fighters dead (Sunday night), the militant group Hamas and other armed factions mounted an intense and escalating rocket and mortar barrage across much of southern Israel that continued into Tuesday morning.

...The fighting threatened to scuttle months of multilateral talks aimed at calming the Israel-Gaza border, where protests since March have been met with a lethal Israeli response. Some 170 Palestinians have been killed and thousands more wounded.

The talks, mediated by Egypt, had already produced concrete steps to ease tensions in Gaza, including increased electrical power and the influx of millions of dollars in aid.

So why, some Israelis were asking, with the Israeli government under pressure to ease tensions in Gaza and the talks showing progress, would the government risk it all for what officials described as a fairly routine surveillance mission?

The answer, analysts said, may be that it was so routine. No one expected the Israeli commando squad to be exposed.

...The cost of that tiny risk became evident on Monday and Tuesday. More than 400 rockets and mortar shells were fired into Israel, and the Israeli military said it had struck more than 100 military targets in Gaza belonging to Hamas, which governs the territory, and to Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Israel’s Iron Dome system intercepted more than 100 projectiles, it said.

...Israel’s...government was spurning, for the moment, offers by Egypt and the United Nations to try to broker a cease-fire.

...To embrace talks prematurely would send the wrong message, (Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Emanuel Nachshon) suggested. Rather, he said, militants in Gaza needed to understand that they “cannot shoot whenever they feel like it and then stop shooting as if nothing happened.”...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-rocket-fire.html

18margd
Nov 20, 2018, 8:35am Top

Airbnb: Israeli uproar as firm bars West Bank settlements
11/20/2018

Israel has denounced as "shameful" Airbnb's decision to withdraw its listings from homes in Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank...would back legal challenges lodged by settlers against the US firm.

...affects 200 listings

...Human Rights Watch...said "Israelis and foreigners may rent properties in settlements, but Palestinian ID holders are effectively barred".

It said this was the only example the rights body could find "in which Airbnb hosts have no choice but to discriminate against guests based on national or ethnic origin".

...The Yesha Council, which represents Israeli settlers, accused Airbnb of becoming "a political site" and said the decision was "the result of either anti-Semitism or capitulation to terrorism, or both".

And the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a US-based Jewish human rights organisation, urged Jewish communities around the world to boycott Airbnb in the wake of its decision.

...More than 600,000 Jews live in about 140 settlements built since Israel's 1967 occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46273938

19johnthefireman
Edited: Nov 20, 2018, 9:32am Top

>18 margd:

Might also be worth highlighting the phrase in that article which points out that "Jewish settlements in territory occupied by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war are considered illegal under international law". Why should Airbnb be expected to promote something illegal?

Al Jazeera includes that point in its headline - Airbnb to remove listings from illegal Israeli settlements - listings are being removed from illegal settlements.

20margd
Edited: Nov 20, 2018, 3:52pm Top

I was struck that Yesha Council cried "anti-Semitism" over BnB action, when Palestinian ID holders are effectively barred from renting properties...

21lriley
Nov 20, 2018, 12:53pm Top

If you notice the Israeli military never ever hit a 'civilian' target. There is never ever such a thing as 'collateral damage' mentioned in Gaza or the West Bank. Projectiles coming from the Palestinian end could be 'mortar shells or rockets' or they could be 'sticks and stones'. There doesn't to be a lot of separation from the rockets to the stone throwing nor does there seem to be a lot of separation between whether the rocket comes courtesy of a middle aged man or the stone courtesy of an 11 year old boy in the eyes of the Israeli military or press. They're all subject to a response of bullets.The military blasts away at them with air assaults and sniper's rifles and the press denounces them before, during and afterwards as 'terrorists'. In the meanwhile Palestinian homes are bulldozed indiscriminately and more land is stolen (il)legally in the West Bank. In the United States we're supposed to buy the line that our great ally Israel is besieged and surrounded by enemies. I understand the horrific events to the European Jewish people during WWII but that shouldn't give the Jewish people of Israel a pass to visit similar or the same upon the Palestinians which they've done for pretty much the past 70+ years. I'm frankly sick and tired of it. Those with power need to speak to those with little power and it should be up to those with power to give more and to go to greater lengths to find a peaceful resolution simply because they have so much more and because they can. I'm afraid it ain't going to happen. The state of Israel will continue to play itself as the victim even though it's the one with the guns, the military might, the press, the law and practically everything else. The Israeli govt. is not interested in sharing power. Basically I view Israel as a right wing religious fundamentalist apartheid state. It's possible I suppose that a real reform govt. could come in but when you have the likes of Netanyahu running things there is pretty much no hope there will ever be a solution.

22prosfilaes
Nov 21, 2018, 2:56am Top

>21 lriley: The state of Israel will continue to play itself as the victim even though it's the one with the guns, the military might, the press, the law and practically everything else.

Ignoring that they've been attacked several times by foreign states, that foreign states fund and supply the Palestinian insurgency, and that Al Jazeera has worldwide penetration, unlike any Israeli news source, and various Muslim countries have national, heavily anti-Israel media.

Yes, Israel under Netanyahu is quite problematic. But overstating the issue doesn't help the discussion.

The Israeli govt. is not interested in sharing power.

It takes two to share power. I don't see at any point in history when the Palestinians have been willing to share power; I've seen maps of how the Jews are going to pushed into the sea and control of land in the area is going to return to the 1920s proportions of Arab controls.

23johnthefireman
Nov 22, 2018, 4:18am Top

>22 prosfilaes:

While you seem to ignore the fact that the Israeli settlements are considered by most of the world to be illegal. Israel is a state which consistently acts illegally in the eyes of the international community.

It takes two to share power. I don't see at any point in history when the Palestinians have been willing to share power; I've seen maps of how the Jews are going to pushed into the sea and control of land in the area is going to return to the 1920s proportions of Arab controls.

I'm sure there are many Palestinians who share such extreme views, just as there are many Israelis who share equally (or more) extreme views. I personally have met many Palestinians who do not share such views - indeed one which sticks in my mind is a young mother who said, "I don't care who governs us as long as my 13-year old son is not sucked into a conflict which will kill him". I've heard many ordinary Palestinians speak of how they seek peace, justice and human dignity rather than being governed by one political faction or another. If Israel were to give even a hint that they might provide peace, justice and human dignity, there are many who would accept it. But even the politicised leaders of Palestine have from time to time accepted huge concessions, including the two state soution and recognition of the right of the State of Israel to exist, but these concessions have not led to any quid pro quo from Israel.

I wonder whether, if the UN were to decide to give Texas to Mexico, causing millions of Texans to be displaced from their land, the USA would be as blase about it as they are about the plight of the Palestinians?

24RickHarsch
Edited: Nov 22, 2018, 6:08am Top

23 Another problem is that pro-Israelis never seem to recognize that Israeli (and British) actions made the most extreme of extremists inevitable. The settlements, to take on example, are an extraordinary provocation, insult, admission of bad faith, and a quotidian disaster for the nearby Palestinians. One such settlement would be enough to turn me into an extremist. It seems impossible for the Israeli supporter to empathize with Palestinians. Israeli actions over the course of more than half a century have consistently created people who are now anathema to pro-Israelis, but these supporters of Israel never seem to consider how they came to be.

Taking your Texas example further...give the US Texans the panhandle and then fence them in and build settlements up there.

25prosfilaes
Nov 23, 2018, 9:30pm Top

>23 johnthefireman: Israel is a state which consistently acts illegally in the eyes of the international community.

And Palestine isn't? Certainly the only nation-state or nation-state wannabee to stage an attack at the Olympics, and they continue to fire rockets into Israel. In any case, that's irrelevant to what I was saying; I was responding to "it's the one with the guns, the military might, the press, the law and practically everything else", which is untrue as a practical matter.

I personally have met many Palestinians who do not share such views

Okay? There's many Israelis who want peace as well. But the powers that be in Palestine seem to be fine with such views.

even the politicised leaders of Palestine have from time to time accepted huge concessions, including the two state soution and recognition of the right of the State of Israel to exist

Wow. After three major wars that the Israelis won, the Arabs have finally admitted that they can't destroy Israel militarily, and the Palestinians were forced to accept the reality that the State of Israel was going to exist like the UN said. Why should we treat Israeli settlements as illegal and ignore Arab attempts to move in on land given to Israel by the UN?

The two parties got to the table under Carter, but negotiations broke down over Jerusalem. Are the Palestinians willing to give up their claims to Jerusalem? I don't know how to get Israel back to the negotiating table, but treating recognition of the right of the State of Israel to exist as a huge concession is hardly going to help.

26johnthefireman
Edited: Nov 24, 2018, 3:11am Top

>25 prosfilaes:

It wasn't a nation state which staged an attack on the Olympics, it was a non-state actor, terrorist group, freedom flighters, whatever one wishes to call them. While one deplores such terrorist actions, one understands the frustration which leads under-resourced oppressed groups to resort to this type of asymmetric warfare which they perceive to be their only resort in the face of overwhelming odds. Likewise firing random rockets. On the other hand Israel is a nation state which tries to claim the moral high ground while consistently breaching international law, including UN Security Council resolutions, and responds to any provocation with overwhelming levels of lethal violence, including war crimes such as collective punishment.

Yes, there are many Israelis who want peace, but the powers that be in Israel seem to be fine with the views of their violent extremists, including their illegal settlers on the West Bank.

Winning a major war says nothing about the justice of your cause, it merely means you have more military resources, which is hardly surprising when you have the USA supporting you come what may.

Are the Israelis willing to give up their claim to Jerusalem?

Do you really not think it is a huge concession for a people who have had their land taken away from them by outsiders without being consulted, consequently been displaced to spend decades as refugees, and then oppressed, marginalised, discriminated against, violently repressed and otherwise badly treated by the new occupants of their land, to recognise that this new status quo has legitimacy to continue?

As a matter of interest, note that it is the same UN which gave the land to the Israelis originally which Israel now ignores - they were happy to accept UN resolutions when it seemed to benefit them, but when it is aimed at curbing their excesses, they reject it.

But for me the bottom line remains - have the Israelis shown any sign of offering peace, justice and human dignity, which would strengthen the hand of moderate Palestinians?

I was responding to "it's the one with the guns, the military might, the press, the law and practically everything else", which is untrue as a practical matter.

"Untrue as a practical matter" how? It looks pretty true to me. Guns, military might, the press (at least the western media, which is what counts - how many people in the USA watch Al Jazeera?), the law in Israel (albeit not international law, which Israel flagrantly breaches) and "everything else", eg the land, not only what was originally given to them by the UN but all the rest which they have grabbed and occupied, the water, the economy, etc.

27lriley
Nov 24, 2018, 12:51pm Top

And I should have mentioned the water situation in Gaza--only 2% of which is potable.....and Gaza FWIW pretty much is an open air prison. No one can get in or out without applying to the Israeli govt. which allows very little movement in or out meanwhile it's blockaded by air, land and sea. The fenced perimeter patrolled by snipers and guard posts--the Israeli air force flying overhead and the Israeli navy right out in the harbor.

28prosfilaes
Nov 24, 2018, 7:37pm Top

>26 johnthefireman: It wasn't a nation state which staged an attack on the Olympics, it was a non-state actor,

So what? Israel has no motive to give nation state status to a non-state actor who does things we wouldn't tolerate from a nation state.

Winning a major war says nothing about the justice of your cause, it merely means you have more military resources, which is hardly surprising when you have the USA supporting you come what may.

Starting a war is generally against international law. The fact that the Arabs on behalf of the Palestinians started several wars and only started arguing for the UN division once they couldn't get what they want by force, and were in fact hurting their position by repeated warfare, doesn't say much for the justice of their cause.

Do you really not think it is a huge concession for a people ... to recognise that this new status quo has legitimacy to continue?

The Germans and the Poles and Crimean Tartars and many other groups all have claims to land that was taken from them in the late 1940s. It's done. There's very few people left alive that can remember those days, and those lines are unlikely ever to be redrawn. You can argue for fair treatment, but the eviction of people who lived in an area for 70 years just isn't going to happen. For a group to accept a status quo that very few alive can remember differently is not a huge concession.

have the Israelis shown any sign of offering peace, justice and human dignity, which would strengthen the hand of moderate Palestinians?

Have the Palestinians shown any sign of offering peace, justice and human dignity, which would strengthen the hand of moderate Israelis? Nothing's exactly parallel, but if Israelis feel under attack, they're not going to be likely to support Palestinians.

29johnthefireman
Edited: Nov 25, 2018, 12:51am Top

>28 prosfilaes:

One might hope that the vastly more powerful protagonist, the one which claims to be a respectable, responsible, democratic nation state, might make a gesture or two towards peace, justice and human dignity - it is very difficult for the one which is being held prisoner and oppressed in almost every way by the more powerful one to do so. Israel is the victor as far as violent conflict is concerned, as you yourself have pointed out. I believe Churchill recommended magnanimity in victory.

30prosfilaes
Nov 25, 2018, 3:11am Top

>29 johnthefireman: One might hope that the vastly more powerful protagonist, the one which claims to be a respectable, responsible, democratic nation state, might make a gesture or two towards peace, justice and human dignity

At the Camp David Accords, Israel offered basically everything but Jerusalem. One might hope for a lot of things, but eternal patience is not something that one can expect, particularly from a democratic nation. Israel settlements aren't a good thing, but people are not going to accept a continuous barrage of rockets with their hands out to their attackers.

Israel is the victor as far as violent conflict is concerned, as you yourself have pointed out. I believe Churchill recommended magnanimity in victory.

Palestine hasn't surrendered yet. Germany had. At the end of WWI and WWII, the immediate threat that Germany posed to its neighbors was over. No matter what Israel does, there will still be rockets coming over the borders. That's part of the problem here.

And let's remember the "magnanimity" the Germans got after WWII involved 12 million Germans forced to become refugees. Germany lost 25% of its land area to Poland and the Soviet Union.

>26 johnthefireman: the press (at least the western media, which is what counts - how many people in the USA watch Al Jazeera?)

Which is what counts? Really? Even if I accepted this concept that the Western media is just a puppet of Israel, there's a billion Muslims living in predominantly Muslim areas that get a different feed on their TV screens and newspapers, and I can hardly dismiss the existence and relevance of that media.

31RickHarsch
Nov 25, 2018, 5:24pm Top

>28 prosfilaes: This is a truly bizarre argument applied to the conflict in Palestine:

"The Germans and the Poles and Crimean Tartars and many other groups all have claims to land that was taken from them in the late 1940s. It's done. There's very few people left alive that can remember those days, and those lines are unlikely ever to be redrawn. You can argue for fair treatment, but the eviction of people who lived in an area for 70 years just isn't going to happen. For a group to accept a status quo that very few alive can remember differently is not a huge concession."

The Germans and Poles have large viable nations. The Palestinians had every right to have their own viable, not nearly as large, nation. What they did have was systematically robbed from them from WWI up to and after WWII, shortly after which, they lost it all. An imaginary nation was imagined and placed over their land as if they had no rights to it. That is one of the ugliest stories in history. What kind of an asshole with no personal connection to that land would speak of this atrocity as something outdated, particularly when the news every day bears evidence that the wounds from this are still suffered--and not just the wounds inflicted in the ongoing war, but the original wound, the dispossession itself, the forced diaspora, and then of course the relentless humiliation both physical and not of the people who have less to live on and less to live in as time progresses.

It is right to bring up the Crimean Tartars as it is right to bring up, for another instance, the Kurds, who have suffered immensely largely because of their lack of importance to the same people who did their best to smooth the way for Zionists in Palestine, the British.

The argument made here is, basically, fuck em. Too late. No redress. Time has run out. Then again, what more is to be expected from an unrepentant citizen of a country with an origin myth that ignores the fundamental genocidist nature of its founders?

32margd
Nov 26, 2018, 4:28am Top

>28 prosfilaes: The Germans and the Poles and Crimean Tartars and many other groups all have claims to land that was taken from them in the late 1940s. It's done. There's very few people left alive that can remember those days, and those lines are unlikely ever to be redrawn. You can argue for fair treatment, but the eviction of people who lived in an area for 70 years just isn't going to happen. For a group to accept a status quo that very few alive can remember differently is not a huge concession.

Israel certainly hasn't let go of the Holocaust, also 70 years old, though "few people left alive that can remember those days".

Opinion Israel Still Hasn't Learned the Most Important Lesson of the Holocaust
Anshel Pfeffer | Apr 12, 2018

We were once the vulnerable, stigmatized, stateless people, shorn of legal protections...

...The Holocaust should inform and influence the way we look at contemporary politics and affairs of state. And as Jews we have a duty to think more deeply and act when we see democratic institutions attacked and a legal vacuum created, in Israel or whatever country we live in, because we know how vulnerable stateless people shorn of legal protections can be.

...The (70YO) Declaration of Independence...promises that Israel "will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants" and that "it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel" and "ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex" and "guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture."

...It is our duty, as descendants and heirs of all those generations of Jews who were denied their basic rights to live (to address Israeli-Palestinian issues in a more just manner). A duty not just of Israelis, but of all Jews in whose name Israel was founded and who can and should bring their influence, experience and knowledge to bear in this project. Israel’s Declaration of Independence, which brought Zionism to its successful end 70 years ago, still needs to be fulfilled.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-israel-still-hasn-t-learnt-the-most-imp...

34johnthefireman
Edited: Jan 13, 9:51am Top

Ten years after the first war on Gaza, Israel still plans endless brute force (Guardian)

Operation Cast Lead killed 1,417 people. Chillingly, the generals call their repeated bombardments ‘mowing the lawn’

35lriley
Jan 8, 6:36am Top

#34--many Israelis and particularly the settlers look at the Palestinians as subhumans or animals. There's a common belief that the West Bank and Gaza belong to them and anyone can watch literally hundreds and hundreds of youtube videos in which Israeli settlers are very upfront about those lands belonging to them and they use the old testament as a wedge against others. They make all kinds of arguments such as Israel is only for the Jews and there are 20 + other Arab countries where the Palestinians can go and live with other Muslims and they pretty much treat Palestinian Christians as badly. Meanwhile the govt. makes a point of treating Palestinians as non-citizens. It's a systematic attack on multiples of fronts to drive Palestinians out.

36johnthefireman
Edited: Jan 13, 9:51am Top

>35 lriley: many Israelis and particularly the settlers look at the Palestinians as subhumans or animals

One of the reasons why I continue to challenge a poster on a parallel thread who insists on publicly calling a certain class of human beings "utterly vile subhuman scum".

"Animals" was a common term used by north Sudanese to dehumanise south Sudanese during the period when the latter were under the domination of the former, and was a precursor to ethnic cleansing if not full-blown genocide.

37lriley
Edited: Jan 8, 10:28am Top

#36--that particular case is like talking to a wall and talking to him (ignoring is better) is a complete waste of time IMO and in any case his views are shared by maybe a very very tiny minority of people and he's practically powerless to do what he talks about unless he wants to end up dead or in prison. He's a whiner and attention seeker but he doesn't strike me as a martyr type and I don't take him seriously.

OTOH the Palestinians are completely under the thumb of the Israelis who have the military, the police, the courts and the media all on the same page. Their media even filters over here where Mr. Rubio--republican Senator from Florida's bill the first up in the Senate is to quash any American person or business from divesting from and/or boycotting/protesting Israel for its apartheid policies. There are numerous Democratic Senators on board with that too including Sen. Schumer and even though it is a violation of the first amendment of our Constitution and there's a very good chance it will end up in the Supreme Court.

382wonderY
Jan 8, 12:56pm Top

Trying to learn about the BDS Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement and how governments are reacting.

https://bdsmovement.net/

What is BDS?

The Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) movement works to end international support for Israel's oppression of Palestinians and pressure Israel to comply with international law.

Who is behind all of these state laws forbidding participation in this movement?

(possibly deserves it's own thread?)

40johnthefireman
Jan 21, 12:33am Top

Israel plans to close UNRWA schools in occupied East Jerusalem (Al Jazeera)

UNRWA accuses Israel of violating 1946 Refugee Convention over its plan to shut agency's schools in East Jerusalem.

41johnthefireman
Edited: Jan 23, 12:53am Top

Israel’s democracy: killing with impunity, lying without consequence? (Guardian)

The late Amos Oz was right to say ‘even unavoidable occupation is a corrupting occupation’. Israeli voters should heed his words

42johnthefireman
Jan 24, 12:52am Top

Protest closes Israel's 'apartheid road' through West Bank (Guardian)

Amongst other things this article reminds us that Palestinians need permits to enter the Holy City of Jerusalem, which is sacred to Muslims, Christians and Jews, and that "Most Palestinians living in the West Bank do not have permits".

43johnthefireman
Edited: Jan 26, 11:14pm Top

Palestinian man killed by Israeli settlers in West Bank (Guardian)

But the following statistics, also from the Grauniad, are appalling:

One in 20 Britons does not believe Holocaust took place, poll finds

"I don’t think {the poll respondents} are active Holocaust deniers – people who deliberately propagate and disseminate vile distortions. But their ignorance means they are susceptible to myths and distortions...”

44lriley
Edited: Feb 7, 7:49pm Top

Ireland becomes first EU country to pass BDS law banning goods from illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

45margd
Edited: Feb 12, 9:38am Top

There Is a Taboo Against Criticizing AIPAC — and Ilhan Omar Just Destroyed It
Mehdi Hasan | February 12, 2019

...Rep. Ilhan Omar, of Minnesota’s 5th congressional district, was slammed by Democrats and Republicans alike over her suggestion, in a pair of tweets, that U.S. politicians back the state of Israel because of financial pressure from AIPAC (“It’s all about the Benjamins baby,” she declaimed). Was the flippant way in which she phrased her tweets a problem? Did it offend a significant chunk of liberal U.S. Jewish opinion? Did it perhaps unwittingly play into anti-Semitic tropes about rich Jews controlling the world? Yes, yes, and yes — as she herself has since admitted and “unequivocally” apologized for. But was she wrong to note the power of the pro-Israel lobby, to point a finger at AIPAC, to highlight — in her apology — “the problematic role of lobbyists in our politics, whether it be AIPAC, the NRA or the fossil fuel industry”?

No, no, and no.

...Today, the Palestinians continue to be bombed, besieged and dispossessed by their Israeli occupiers — with the full military and financial support of the United States government. There are a variety of credible explanations for this support: Israel’s role as a “strategic asset” and “mighty aircraft carrier”; U.S. Christian evangelicals’ obsession with Israel and the end-times prophecy; the impact of arms sales and the U.S. military-industrial complex; not to mention the long-standing cultural and social ties between American Jews and Israeli Jews. But to pretend money doesn’t play a role — or that AIPAC doesn’t have a big impact on members of Congress and their staffers — is deeply disingenuous...

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/12/there-is-a-taboo-against-criticizing-aipac-a...

46lriley
Feb 12, 6:26pm Top

A lot of establishment and moderate democrats show how weak they are in condemning Rep. Ilhan Omar for remarks she made about AIPAC---conflating them with anti-semitism. AIPAC buys politicians left and right of both major parties to serve the state of Israel and I think it's important to say that not all Jewish people are all supporters of the right wing Israeli regime that runs an apartheid like state.

This all began by the way because the Senate majority leader had pointed out to him what a lackey to AIPAC he exactly is.......and it's absolutely true and it's too bad for those (even Speaker Pelosi) who can't handle it and the fact of the matter is McCarthy is a corrupt piece of shit.

47RickHarsch
Feb 13, 12:47am Top

I heard about this vaguely--Omar made some anti-Semtic remarks and apologized. When I found out it was against AIPAC I was stunned. Isn't it time?

48johnthefireman
Feb 13, 1:08am Top

>46 lriley:

When I see any acronym with "PAC" at the end I get suspicious. We used to have ESPAC for Europe and Sudan and there was a USA-Sudan version as well, IIRC. They are usually just propaganda organs for oppressive regimes. ESPAC was run by a former Rhodesian mercenary, which just about sums up the credibility of such organisations.

49jjwilson61
Feb 13, 8:37am Top

>47 RickHarsch: Omar made some anti-Semtic remarks and apologized.

Only if you believe that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.

50lriley
Feb 13, 10:25am Top

#47 + 48---AIPAC is a lobbying group for a foreign govt. I'm not a fan of lobbying groups to begin with. AIPAC throws around money like candy to politicians on both sides and afterwards these politicians are supposed to follow the script that whatever the Israeli govt. decides is good is in fact good and anyone that criticizes the govt. of Israel or whatever it does is anti-semetic which is bullshit. These same lawmakers working to criminalize first amendment freedom of speech protest and the BDS movement in the United States. Sorry but I don't try to differentiate people because they are Jewish, Moslem, Christian or whatever. Personally I've avoided religion for a long time but if someone wants to believe something that's fine as long as they're not trying to turn it into a crusade. The Israeli right wing govt.'s treatment of the Palestinians has been atrocious and for decades and yet they're always playing a victim card. We know there are assholes in every group but treat people with respect and you're going to have a better and happier society.

51davidgn
Feb 14, 12:02am Top

For anyone who had any doubts about the permanent agenda...

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/netanyahu-invokes-war-iran-warsaw-summit-then...

Benjamin Netanyahu has employed harsh rhetoric against Iran for years, but he went a step further on Wednesday, saying that Arab countries participating in a Middle East conference in Warsaw "are sitting down together with Israel in order to advance the common interest of war with Iran".

The Israeli prime minister's office walked back his comments about two hours later.

In a re-issued statement to the media, Netanyahu's office said the goal of the meetings in Poland was "to advance the common interest of combatting Iran".

The word "war" was removed from the statement without explanation.

52RickHarsch
Feb 14, 12:54am Top

I think if you go back and read what I wrote I imply that of course what she had done was no anti-semitic, at least inasmuch as it was an attack on AIPAC.

53margd
Feb 14, 4:22am Top

Netanyahu appears to say war with Iran is common goal
Josh Lederman | Feb. 13, 201901:18

The remark, which Israeli officials later tried to soften, startled Iranians and even the White House.
Pence leads Warsaw summit aimed at putting pressure on Iran

...Although Israeli officials tried to soften the reference by altering the English translation, the provocative comment was likely to further the perception that Israel, its Gulf Arab neighbors and the United States are interested in using military action to topple the government of Iran. It comes at a particularly delicate moment, as the Trump administration uses a U.S.-organized summit in Warsaw and this week's 40th anniversary of the Iranian Revolution to try to rally the world against the government in Tehran.

...Netanyahu, in a short video recorded on the sidelines of the summit, emphasized the significance of Israeli and Arab officials appearing in the same venue, noting that the summit was "not in secret, because there are many of those."

"This is an open meeting with representatives of leading Arab countries that are sitting down together with Israel in order to advance the common interest of war with Iran," Netanyahu said...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/netanyahu-appears-say-war-iran-common-goal-n9...

54lriley
Edited: Feb 14, 9:52am Top

I think Netanyahu is pretty clear what he wants.

I think what might not be clear to a lot of people is what exactly he wants from the United States. He certainly seems to have a willing ally in the likes of Trump and associates like Bolton, Pompeo and Kushner. The company you keep. This is Trump--he likes Putin, Kim, MBS and Netanyahu, Bolton, Pompeo and Kushner. He would like to be a better friend of Erdogan.

The United States in its asinine Iraqi adventure invaded and occupied (if occupied is the right word) at least parts of Iraq--a country covering roughly 169,000 square miles and a population of somewhere around 37 million--split mainly between rival sects of the Moslem relgion--Wikipedia has 15 million Shia and another 500,000 Shia Kurds--9 million Sunni's and another 4 million Sunni Kurds, 3 million Turkmen etc. etc. Saddam Hussein--asshole that he was had kept a lid on this boiling pot. No telling how many people we've killed and maimed there in the last 18 years--in the hundreds of thousands anyway--perhaps over a million--while losing thousands of our own soldiers. Well over a trillion $'s spent on it as well--or enough wherewithal to give us a green new deal and medicare for all. The choices we made.

Iran would be a much bigger problem to have another adventure in. Roughly 636,000 square miles (close to 4 times Iraq) with roughly 82 million people--more than twice the population and it's 90-95% Shia which means the option of playing one sect off against another doesn't exist....and as well if we decide to go along with this atrocity we'll be taking pretty much the side of the Sunni sect over the Shia in what amounts to a holy war. Meanwhile American end of times evangelicals (basically the greatest imbeciles we have) will be having collective hard ons--the rapture will be coming true. Considering Al Quaeda were/are Sunni terrorists--that's a real turn around from 9-11. The fucking Saudis and Israelis once more playing us for chumps.

So would we invade Iran with a land army to occupy Iran? Problematic for Israel on its own with a population of around 9 million (7 million Jewish) with no land bordering Iran. Could an American led army cover 4 times a land mass with over twice the population when we could hardly control Iraq? I don't think so. I don't think there's any fucking way for us to have a land war. So what we're left with is embargos, sanctions, missiles and nukes. I think Netanyahu looks at the first two options as weak and really likes the last two options the best and that Trump is fucked up enough that he'd go along with him all the way.

55davidgn
Edited: Feb 15, 12:37am Top

Here's a thoughtful discussion on Omar's tweet.

https://therealnews.com/stories/llhan-omar-anti-semitism-or-fear-of-open-debate-...

MARC STEINER: The congresswoman apologized in writing saying, “I unequivocally apologize. At the same time, I reaffirm the problematic role of lobbyists in our politics, whether it be AIPAC, the NRA, or the fossil fuel industry. It’s gone too long and we must be willing to address it.” But that firestorm is still raging and that didn’t settle people down. The question is, can you take on the power of AIPAC and criticize Israel without being labeled anti-Semitic? How do you do it?

Anti-Semitism is real and deep in this world. It comes in many unconscious forms, as is racism against African descended people in our world. And when Jews hear something that’s even vaguely anti-Semitic in the way it sounds, the pain is real, as is the growing political divide over Israel’s occupation of Palestinian land and the dwindling support for Israel’s right-wing government in this country. Democrats are dividing, Republicans are pushing to widen that divide. Palestinians are occupied, anti-Semitism is real, and we are in the midst of a great political change in part about Israel.

We are joined today by Phyllis Bennis, Fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies, and Charles Lenchner, who grew up in Israel, was a refusenik and worked for years in the peace movement, and now is here at Real News being the Digital Director. Is that your title, Charles?

CHARLES LENCHNER: Yes.

MARC STEINER: Just wanted to make sure I had that right. Welcome, Phyllis and Charles, good to have you with us.

PHYLLIS BENNIS: Great to be with you.

MARC STEINER: So when I saw this erupt, I read everything over and over again, trying to figure out what I was witnessing here. And it took me back to a conversation I had with Dimitri Lascaris on this network a couple months back when he made the comment that these Jewish legislators in Canada had dual loyalties is what he said. And I very honestly said, “Dimitri, that can be seen as a trope. When Jews hear you say that, people get really upset because that was a trope used to divide loyalties, you’re not really of this country.” And he understood, we had a great dialogue about that. Then I read what Ilhan Omar said, thinking about what she was saying, and how she was forced to apologize. And it showed the complexity of the pain of anti-Semitism, but I couldn’t really for myself parse out what she was saying as being anti-Semitic. I was really wrestling with this deeply, because it means a lot to me. So Charles, let me start with you. And Phyllis, just please chime in on this.

CHARLES LENCHNER: One of the tensions I see is that the movements that many of us belong to on the left prioritize the absence of nuance to be very vocal, very strident in supporting or opposing whatever you are for. Washington, DC is a city that thrives on nuance, the ability to parse out in legalistic language exactly the right way to say something so as not to inadvertently be accused of something bad, as Ilhan has been. And I think that that’s a symptom that we’re going to see more and more of as people who haven’t traditionally had power ascend into Congress. And it makes perfect sense that Ilhan, as well as AOC and Rashid Tlaib, are going to be bearing the brunt of these kinds of attacks. But I think what’s hopeful is that they are not crumbling under the pressure.

It’s true that Ilhan apologized publicly for the way in which she said it, but without backing down an inch on what the meaning of her words were, which is to put the spotlight on the way that AIPAC and lobbying influence the debate over Israel in ways that are not conducive to good government, and that we should we should be looking at and opposing. But I also think there’s room for doing better. And I’m glad that Phyllis Bennis is here with us, because I look to her as one of the people who can help these movement people navigate the intricacies of Capitol Hill.

MARC STEINER: Phyllis?

PHYLLIS BENNIS: Well, Thanks for that, Charles. I’ve got to say, I don’t think this was the pain of anti-Semitism that was motivating either Nancy Pelosi or Kevin McCarthy, neither of whom are Jewish, we should note. They weren’t feeling the pain of anti-Semitism. They were both reacting–somewhat differently, they were both reacting with outrage to the accusation that Congress people’s support for Israel might be something other than pure and welcoming an ally who shares our democratic values. That’s what was going on here. This wasn’t about anybody being so outraged. So I think that we have to separate this out. I think that what Ilhan Omar was doing here, and I thought it was terrific, was focusing on AIPAC, which is the biggest and most influential parts of the pro-Israel lobby, a lobby which is not only Jewish, includes amazingly powerful and wealthy organizations like CUFI, Christians United for Israel.

It includes a whole host of fundamentalist Christian organizations, it includes most of the arms industry in this country, which makes a killing, if you will, on selling arms to Israel because the U.S. gives them money, which goes to arms that goes to Israel, 3.8 billion dollars every year, a total of 38 billion dollars over ten years has been pledged over ten years directly to the Israel military. That’s all what is at the root of this notion of the power of the pro-Israel lobby, it’s the reason that it’s so powerful. It’s not just that it’s Jewish money. This is what Kevin McCarthy said, Kevin McCarthy, who is the House minority leader who is now, of course, accusing Ilhan Omar of anti-Semitism, is the one who said that Jewish billionaires, and he named three, were the ones who were trying to “buy the elections.” That, to me, sounds closer to anti-Semitism when you’re talking about individual Jewish money....

56RickHarsch
Feb 15, 12:56am Top

obviously

57davidgn
Feb 15, 12:58am Top

>56 RickHarsch: The problem, Rick, is it's not obvious to everybody.

58RickHarsch
Feb 15, 1:38am Top

Obviously again. I didn't mean to demean the post, but a weariness set in when I went to respond.

59lriley
Feb 15, 7:13am Top

#55---great article. it's worth noting that Israeli's right wing govt. stays in power messaging on fear. That govt. wants constant conflict because it's kept them in power and they play on American politicians for money and arms. Other than reluctantly signing papers on occasion they have never made an actual significant step towards or followed through on any part of any agreement that would lead to the creation of a two state solution. The Israeli govt. deliberately appeals to hard right rapture happy American christians who are wrong on pretty much everything and many of whom go to bed every night to dream of this insane second coming and holy war on the plains of Armageddon. This Israeli govt. is committed to war against the Palestinians and the Iranians right now. They are not talking to these 'enemies' of theirs or even attempting to. They never really have in the past---it's always non negotiaton and shows of force . War has never been a last resort for them--more like a first or second option and they want to drag us along with them wherever they go.....and there is no real solution to be found in this approach of theirs that isn't a kind of genocide.

So really Netanyahu has to fall. And a left or lefter Israeli govt. should replace the one they have now and actually work at some kind of internal solution that gives other Israeli residents the same rights as Jewish Israeli's. It's the only sane way to go. I think this is what our saner presidents/politicians like Clinton, Carter, Kerry, Obama were at least nudging Israel towards---though they needed to push them a lot harder than they did.

61margd
Feb 15, 9:20am Top

Foreign aid by country: Who is getting the most — and how much?
Kristin Myers | February 21, 2018
https://www.concernusa.org/story/foreign-aid-by-country-getting-how-much/

62prosfilaes
Feb 15, 12:57pm Top

>1 margd: I find it interesting that nobody has commented on this. The mustache-twirling evil Israel has no advantage from a Palestinian-Jordan union, but the Israel that's concerned that a Palestinian state is going to be an upgraded attacker has much to gain from them unifying with a more stable neighbor.

63davidgn
Edited: Feb 16, 1:06am Top

>62 prosfilaes: Hadn't read that part of the thread. But frankly, I find the proposal difficult to take seriously. I fail to see how it's going to happen as long as the Hashemite dynasty is in power.

https://israelpolicyforum.org/2018/09/06/the-lost-cause-of-the-confederation/
https://www.algemeiner.com/2018/09/06/jordan-doesnt-want-a-confederation/

eta
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/09/12/is-a-jordanian-con...

"Jordanians reject the confederation idea because they see it as a barely disguised attempt to solve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict at Jordanian expense."

Not to mention its problematic ethnocratic implications...
https://972mag.com/an-israeli-palestinian-confederation-not-so-fast/

Group: Pro and Con

421 members

127,319 messages

About

This topic is not marked as primarily about any work, author or other topic.

Touchstones

No touchstones

About | Contact | Privacy/Terms | Help/FAQs | Blog | Store | APIs | TinyCat | Legacy Libraries | Early Reviewers | Common Knowledge | 132,536,585 books! | Top bar: Always visible