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Crafting Immigration Policy in America 2

This is a continuation of the topic Crafting Immigration Policy in America.

Pro and Con

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1margd
Oct 30, 2018, 11:11am Top

>151 (original thread) contd. Some suggest Trump just trying to switch pre-election conversation to one he likes (immigration), but Johns Hopkins prof who wrote a book on topic (Birthright Citizens: A History of Race and Rights in Antebellum America https://www.politics-prose.com/book/9781316604724) isn't so sanguine about constitutionality:

Martha S. Jones, JD, PhD @marthasjones_ https://twitter.com/marthasjones_ | 3:16 AM - 30 Oct 2018 from Severn, MD:

1/ I’ll weigh in here to say a few things about this issue. The first is that this issue is not one that has been directly tested or addressed by our courts. And the final interpretation here rests with #SCOTUS.

EXCLUSIVE: President Trump plans to sign an executive order that would remove the right to citizenship for babies of non-citizens and unauthorized immigrants born on U.S. soil. https://www.axios.com/trump-birthright-citizenship-executive-order-0cf4285a-16c6...

2/ The President proposes to interpret that part of the 14th Amendment which excludes persons not subject to US jurisdiction from Birthright Citizenship. His view as I take it is that children born to unauthorized immigrants are excluded from Birthright under this exception.

3/ We have long relied upon the #SCOTUS decision of Wong Kim Ark (1898) for the view that even the children of noncitizens, when born in the US, are citizens by Birthright.

4/ Could #SCOTUS revisit its own precedent in Wong Kim Ark and rule that children of non citizens are not Birthright citizens. It would be a departure from precedent, but it is possible.

5/ More likely #SCOTUS could distinguish from Wong Kim Ark on the facts. Wong’s parent were authorized or we might say legal immigrants. Their presence in the US was authorized. Wong Kim Ark did not directly address the status of children born to unauthorized immigrants.

6/ A narrowly tailored EO that rested on the view that the children of unauthorized immigrants are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US (in citizenship terms) and thus not citizens by virtue of Birthright is an argument that can be made.

7/ I’ll leave it others to parse whether the President can bypass Congress on this and in essence legislate the terms of the 14th Amendment via an EO. My point is that his proposal raises a question that courts will need to resolve.

8/ My view is that this sort of wholesale or categorical exclusion is contrary to the spirit of the 14th Amendment which aimed to expand and open a way for citizenship, especially for those who might otherwise be denied because of racism. The case being former slaves.

9/ We are facing a contest over what categories of persons are excluded from Birthright citizenship. Congress intended that children born in the US to parents who were foreign diplomats or parents who were members of an occupying army would not be Birthright Citizens.

2lriley
Edited: Oct 30, 2018, 12:11pm Top

Very exciting times if you are a Klanner, a Nazi or a believer in any other kind of white nationalism. They have a President working for them. What comes after that is purity tests. And some still wonder why they get tagged as racists. Well when you support this yokel you get racist policy.

The idea the the POTUS can change the Constitution by executive order is not only illegal but it would set a very dangerous precedent. Might as well just tear up the Constitution right along with that executive order. It will be just be a worthless piece of paper at that point. These amendments were voted on by congress (a co-equal branch of the govt.) and certified by the Supreme Court (another co-equal branch of the govt.). The executive end of the govt. is now thinking about co-opting the powers of both the congress and the court to itself. Might as well just anoint the fucker as King while they're at it.

It's interesting how the republican party is always at work at disenfranchisement and voter suppression.

3mamzel
Oct 30, 2018, 2:40pm Top

>2 lriley: I think a lot of people might be surprised by the results of the purity test. ;-)

4gilroy
Oct 30, 2018, 2:43pm Top

>2 lriley: What's interesting and that many Republicans who support what Pres 45 proposes don't realize, if he can change the 14th amendment with an executive order, what's stopping another president or even 45 himself from changing the 2nd amendment?

52wonderY
Edited: Oct 30, 2018, 3:02pm Top

Garrett Epps, professor of constitutional law at the University of Baltimore, writes in The Atlantic today:

The Citizenship Clause Means What It Says

The citizenship-denial lobby has focused on the words subject to the jurisdiction. Its members argue that citizens of foreign countries, even if they live in the U.S., are not subject to U.S. jurisdiction, and thus their children are not covered by the clause. To test this idea, ask yourself: If a foreign citizen rear-ends your car on your drive home today, will you, or the police, allow him to drive away on the grounds that a foreign citizen cannot be arrested, ticketed, or sued?

For those scoring at home, the answer is no.

Foreign citizens are “subject to the jurisdiction” of our police and courts when they are in the U.S., whether as tourists, legal residents, or undocumented immigrants. Only one group is not “subject to the jurisdiction”—accredited foreign diplomats and their families, who can be expelled by the federal government but not arrested or tried.

ps: Epps wrote the book on the 14th Amendment: Democracy Reborn: The Fourteenth Amendment and the Fight for Equal Rights in Post-Civil War America

7johnthefireman
Oct 31, 2018, 12:58am Top

Mexico town devastated by earthquake welcomes thousands from migrant caravan (Guardian)

An impoverished Mexican town nearly flattened by a 2017 earthquake has welcomed thousands of tired and hungry Central American migrants in quiet defiance of Donald Trump’s condemnation of the group...

82wonderY
Oct 31, 2018, 7:50am Top

Some Republicans weigh in on Trump's plan to revoke birthright citizenship.

Trump surprise rattles GOP in final stretch

9margd
Nov 1, 2018, 7:42am Top

George Conway @gtconway3d | 10:10 PM - 31 Oct 2018:
To say that “illegal immigrants are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States” is just drivel. Were that true, then the government wouldn’t be able to arrest them. Surely that’s not the President’s position. Clearly he has no comprehension of the words he’s using.

102wonderY
Edited: Nov 1, 2018, 8:33am Top

Trump’s birthright citizenship proposal, explained by a law professor, Aziz Huq

Trump has brought up ending birthright citizenship before. The president’s former Deputy National Security Adviser Michael Anton anticipated and argued for Trump’s proposal in two recent opinion articles, supplying the legal arguments the president’s comments lack.

Anton's articles:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/citizenship-shouldnt-be-a-birthright/201...

https://www.claremont.org/crb/basicpage/birthright-citizenship-a-response-to-my-...

11margd
Nov 1, 2018, 3:12pm Top

The caravan “invasion” and America’s epistemic crisis
David Roberts@drvoxdavid@vox.com | Nov 1, 2018

The far right’s xenophobic fantasies now involve the actual US military.

...Up to 15,000 members of the world’s greatest fighting force, sitting in the desert, watching for poor refugees approaching on foot.

The ludicrously named “Operation Faithful Patriot” will last 46 days. Even if it walks 20 miles a day, the caravan will arrive, at the earliest, in 45 days. It’s possible none of the troops will ever see an actual refugee.

In short, the troops currently heading to the border are being used entirely as a stunt to boost turnout for the midterms.

Using the military for a domestic stunt has real consequences. “Committing troops to one operation means fewer forces for another,” write Helene Cooper and Thomas Gibbons-Neff in the New York Times. “Compared with how many troops the United States has stationed in Syria (2,000), in Afghanistan (14,000) and in Iraq (5,000), the number of soldiers sent to Texas, Arizona and California will be a significant slice of all troops deployed worldwide.”

And that’s to say nothing of the more intangible consequences of this stunt, which is yet another blow to the norms of conduct that hold our political life together.

And of course there’s the small but not inconsequential risk, if things go badly wrong, that we could see footage of US troops firing on unarmed refugees before the year is out...

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/11/1/18041710/migrant-caravan-ameri...

12lriley
Nov 1, 2018, 4:33pm Top

I'm listening to this crazy speech that the POTUS is giving right now on immigration and the 'Caravan'. He's not even trying to his distaste for these people. It is straight up fear mongering.

13lriley
Nov 1, 2018, 4:52pm Top

Rocks and projectiles will be considered the same as firearms. WTF! This guy is out of his fucking mind---though it's not all that dissimilar from Netanyahu's govt. policy towards protesting Palestinians. Maybe that's where he got that idea from.

14gilroy
Nov 1, 2018, 5:29pm Top

Change the wig to one more close cropped, give him a box mustache just beneath the nose...
And you're getting close to who he is reincarnated from, I suspect... But I could be wrong.

15margd
Nov 1, 2018, 5:51pm Top

Remember the protests when children were separated from their parents, caged?
I can't imagine a soldier shooting a kid with a slingshot, but there are militias already offering to "help"...

16mamzel
Nov 2, 2018, 12:10pm Top

I work in a high school that is predominately Hispanic. Every year recruiters from all branches of the military set up tables in the central quad and eagerly try to sign up students to fill their quota. Recent news made me think about those troops who will be at the border with the rifles aimed at the people on the other side of the wall. Many of these troops could have once been in their shoes (or barefeet), or their parents were, or friends, or relatives. Will they be able to shoot if and when ordered?

I read somewhere that these recruiters target schools like mine with a lower socioeconomic status since there will be more students that won't be able to afford college and have bleak outlooks for jobs when they graduate. And now they might be asked to aim their weapons at their own.

17margd
Nov 3, 2018, 9:56am Top

Pentagon rejected request for troops it viewed as emergency law enforcement at border
Ryan Browne and Nicole Gaouette | November 2, 2018

...the Department of Homeland Security asked that the Pentagon provide a reserve force that could be called upon to provide "crowd and traffic control" and safeguard Customs and Border Protection personnel at the border to counter a group of Central American migrants walking to the US border to request asylum.

The Pentagon rejected the request on October 26, according to one of the officials, even as it signed off on providing DHS with air and logistics support, medical personnel and engineers.

The request was turned down because the Department of Defense felt that active duty troops do not have the authority to conduct that type of mission unless they are granted additional authorities by the President...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/02/politics/white-house-pentagon-troops-border/index...

__________________________________________________​

Trump's words weaponized in Nigeria: 45 protesters killed...

Nigerian army appears to use Trump's words to defend shooting of protesters
Bukola Adebayo | November 2, 2018

...They want to throw rocks at our military, our military fights back," Trump said. "When they throw rocks like they did at the Mexico military and police, I say consider it a rifle,"

...According to Amnesty International, at least 45 people were killed and 122 people were wounded in the clashes Saturday and Monday...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/02/africa/nigeria-army-trump-video-intl/index.html

18margd
Edited: Nov 4, 2018, 7:46am Top

Preparing for migrants with their flipflops, dreams, and sippy cups...

US troops lay down barbed wire along border ahead of caravan
Eileen AJ Connelly | November 3, 2018

As three separate migrant caravans slowly made their way north through Mexico on Saturday, newly arrived US troops worked to lay a barbed-wire fence along the Texas side of the Rio Grande.

...“I saw that beautiful barbed wire going up,” Trump said at a Saturday campaign rally in Montana. “Beautiful sight.”

A Border Patrol spokesman said in an email to The Post the fencing was part of “necessary preparations” for the caravans...

https://nypost.com/2018/11/03/us-troops-lay-down-barbed-wire-along-border-ahead-...

19margd
Nov 5, 2018, 7:09pm Top

15 contd. This won't end well...

Armed militia groups head to the border, sparking military concerns
Mary Papenfuss | Nov 5, 2018

...About “200 unregulated armed militia members are currently operating along the southwest border,“ says a planning document for Army commanders leading the 5,200 troops Trump has deployed at the border, according to Newsweek. The groups “operate under the guise of citizen patrols supporting” border officials, the document says, pointing out “reported incidents of unregulated militias stealing National Guard equipment during deployments.”

The U.S. Border Patrol late last month warned landowners in Texas to expect “possible armed civilians” to come onto their property because of the caravan, The Associated Press reported.

Militia groups ― heavily armed organizations that train members in paramilitary techniques ― often are right-wing extremist organizations. The Southern Poverty Law Center identified 689 active anti-government extremist groups in 2017. Of those, 273 were militias...

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/11/05/armed-militia-groups-head-to-the-bor...

20johnthefireman
Nov 7, 2018, 7:12am Top

Faith leaders call on US to address complicity in causing migrant caravan (National Catholic Reporter)

Trade policy, land reform, non-military aid solutions need examination, faith leaders say

212wonderY
Nov 7, 2018, 8:13am Top

Funny, the Evangelicals claim that the other faith groups don't speak up about such topics.

22johnthefireman
Nov 7, 2018, 8:38am Top

>21 2wonderY:

US Catholic bishops have been very outspoken about the whole immigration issue. Episcopalians too, I think

232wonderY
Nov 7, 2018, 8:50am Top

Yes, I know. It doesn't seem to penetrate the media very far.

24margd
Nov 8, 2018, 4:26pm Top

Appeals court rules against Trump on DACA immigrant policy
sudhin thanawala | Nov 8, 2018

A U.S. appeals court blocked President Donald Trump on Thursday from immediately ending an Obama-era program shielding young immigrants from deportation, saying the administration's decision to phase it out was arbitrary because it was based on a flawed legal theory (DACA exceeded Obama's authority and was illegal).

A three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously kept a preliminary injunction in place against Trump's decision to end the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program.

Lawsuits by California and others challenging the administration's decision will continue in federal court while the injunction stands.

...In Thursday's ruling, 9th Circuit Judge Kim Wardlaw said California and other plaintiffs were likely to succeed with their claim that the decision to end DACA was arbitrary and capricious.

... The administration has been critical of the 9th Circuit and took the unusual step of trying to sidestep it and have the California DACA cases heard directly by the U.S. Supreme Court. The high court in February declined to do so.

Federal judges in New York and Washington also have ruled against Trump on DACA...

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/appeals-court-rules-trump-daca-im...

25margd
Nov 9, 2018, 6:59am Top

If Trump Administration was truly trying to improve efficiency (anonymous sr official) rather than trying to limit asylum claims (Trump), they would be sending thousands of bureaucrats and immigration judges to border, not soldiers...

Trump administration moves to restrict asylum seekers at border
11/8/2018

Once plan goes into effect, those at US southern border would only be eligible for asylum if they go to official port.

..."What we are attempting to do is trying to funnel ... asylum claims through the ports of entry where we are better resourced, have better capabilities and better manpower and staffing to actually handle those claims in an expeditious and efficient manner," a senior administration official told reporters in a news briefing on Thursday, on condition of anonymity.

..."US law specifically allows individuals to apply for asylum whether or not they are at a port of entry," said Omar Jadwat, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Immigrants' Rights Project. "It is illegal to circumvent that by agency or presidential decree."...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/11/trump-administration-moves-restrict-asylu...

26margd
Nov 11, 2018, 7:18am Top

Mattis dragged his feet on border duty after denying President his parade--can he survive post-election funk in the White House?
(Hope so--can you imagine a Ronny Jackson or Matthew Whitaker in that position?)

Deployed Inside the United States: The Military Waits for the Migrant Caravan
Thomas Gibbons-Neff and Helene Cooper | Nov. 10, 2018

With little electricity, no combat pay and holidays away from home, the 5,600 American troops on the southwest border are on a mission ordered by a politically determined commander in chief and a Pentagon unable to convince him of its perils.

...Two thousand miles away, at the Pentagon, officials privately derided the deployment as an expensive waste of time and resources, and a morale killer to boot.

Leading up to the midterm vote on Tuesday, the military announced that the border mission would be called Operation Faithful Patriot. But Defense Secretary Jim Mattis on Election Day told officials to drop the name, and the Pentagon sent out a terse news release a day later saying the operation was now simply to be known as border support. The term “faithful patriot,” officials said, had political overtones.

...in the last furious days before the midterm elections, photographs of a group of soldiers, clad in full military kit and flak jackets, were presented at Trump rallies and shown in the news media. Mr. Trump himself lauded the stringing up of “beautiful barbed wire” at a rally in Montana.

...Two days after the midterms, on Thursday, a platoon of Army engineers in Hidalgo, Tex., who were stretching bands of concertina wire on the American side of the Rio Grande had ditched the body armor. The decision to wear only their uniforms, canteens, gloves and helmets was simple: It was too hot to wear the armored vests, and the soldiers knew they didn’t need them. And some had already suffered heat exhaustion, just days into their new mission.

...“A wasteful deployment of overstretched Soldiers and Marines would be made much worse if they use force disproportional to the threat they face,” tweeted Martin Dempsey, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. “They won’t.”...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/10/us/deployed-inside-the-united-states-the-mili...

27margd
Nov 12, 2018, 9:40am Top

'Coz winter is coming, and we need a smile:

First snowfall for Eritrean children new to Canada.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB0GHHVZeAY
Published on Nov 12, 2018

John Ivison (political columnist) @IvisonJ | 5:19 PM - 11 Nov 2018
This is the kind of extreme, radical multiculturalism we've been hearing about. Clearly a grave threat to our way of life. (margd: sarcasm, of course)

28mamzel
Nov 13, 2018, 11:36am Top

292wonderY
Nov 13, 2018, 4:21pm Top

The migrant caravan has arrived. Here's what you need to know.

The first wave of the migrant caravan that President Donald Trump has been warning about arrived at the southern border on Tuesday, setting the stage for what Trump views as a potentially dangerous confrontation, but what the migrants view as their chance to apply for asylum.

Riding on nine buses, with a Honduran flag flying out the window of one of them, the group (of about 350) arrived in Tijuana after a month-long journey that saw them traverse multiple countries while enduring oppressive heat, torrential rains and exhausting days-long walks.

30margd
Edited: Nov 15, 2018, 2:04pm Top

Expelling green card holder Gulen, without cause,
to placate Erdogan into easing pressure on Saudis
would be as evil as the Saudis' designs on Khashoggi!

To ease Turkish pressure on Saudis over killing, White House weighs expelling Erdogan foe
Carol E. Lee, Julia Ainsley and Courtney Kube | Nov. 15, 2018 / 11:44 AM EST

WASHINGTON — The White House is looking for ways to remove an enemy of Turkish President Recep Erdogan from the U.S. in order to placate Turkey over the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, according to two senior U.S. officials and two other people briefed on the requests.

Trump administration officials last month asked federal law enforcement agencies to examine legal ways of removing exiled Turkish cleric Fethullah Gulen in an attempt to persuade Erdogan to ease pressure on the Saudi government, the four sources said.

The effort includes directives to the Justice Department and FBI that officials reopen Turkey's case for his extradition, as well as a request to the Homeland Security Department for information about his legal status, the four people said.

They said the White House specifically wanted details about Gulen's residency status in the U.S. Gulen has a Green Card, according to two people familiar with the matter. He has been living in Pennsylvania since the late 1990s.

Career officials at the agencies pushed back on the White House requests, the U.S. officials and people briefed on the requests said.

"At first there were eye rolls, but once they realized it was a serious request, the career guys were furious," said a senior U.S. official involved in the process...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/white-house-weighs-booting-er...

__________________________________________________​

Remember?

Donald Trump’s former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, is under investigation for involvement in an alleged plot to kidnap a Turkish dissident cleric living in the US and fly him to an island prison in Turkey in return for $15m...

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/10/michael-flynn-trump-turkish-diss...

31johnthefireman
Nov 19, 2018, 11:19pm Top

Trump ready to begin drawdown of troops at US-Mexico border (Guardian)

Critics say troops’ deployment was nothing more than a political stunt

Elections are out of the way, so the political stunt is no longer needed...

32margd
Edited: Nov 20, 2018, 4:45am Top

Fresh from dissing Admiral McRaven, who led the mission on Osama Bin Laden and is now suffering from leukemia, Trump prepares to celebrate Thanksgiving in style, while troops he sent to the border pre-election, remain at the border. Maybe Trump will surprise us and spend his Thanksgiving visiting deployed soldiers as have presidents in the past?

Donald Trump Will Spend Thanksgiving at Mar-a-Lago While He Makes Troops Stay Away From Their Families at the Border
Jessica Kwong | 11/19/18

President Donald Trump is facing criticism for planning to continue his tradition of spending Thanksgiving at his Mar-a-Lago resort while keeping thousands of American troops stationed at the southern border away from their home and families for the holiday.

A Federal Aviation Administration advisory last week listed flight restrictions for this Tuesday through Sunday in relation to Trump’s supposed trip to Palm Beach, where his private club he dubs the “Winter White House” is located.

...The number of active-duty troops reached a high of about 5,800, according to a top Pentagon official last Thursday. The deployment is scheduled through December 15, well past Thanksgiving. ...

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-thanksgiving-mar-lago-troops-1222777
__________________________________________________​

In blow to Trump’s immigration agenda, federal judge blocks asylum ban for migrants who enter illegally from Mexico
Isaac Stanley-Becker and Maria Sacchetti | November 20, 2018

A federal judge temporarily blocked the Trump administration from denying asylum to migrants who illegally cross the southern border into the United States, saying the policy likely violated federal law on asylum eligibility.

Jon S. Tigar of the U.S. District Court in San Francisco, in a ruling late Monday, issued a temporary nationwide restraining order preventing enforcement of the policy, which was announced on Nov. 9. His order remains in effect until Dec. 19, at which point the court will consider arguments for a permanent order.

...“Whatever the scope of the President’s authority, he may not rewrite the immigration laws to impose a condition that Congress has expressly forbidden,” wrote the judge, nominated to the federal bench in 2012 by former President Barack Obama. He reasoned that the “failure to comply with entry requirements such as arriving at a designated port of entry should bear little, if any, weight in the asylum process.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/20/blow-trumps-immigration-agenda-...

33johnthefireman
Nov 20, 2018, 11:36pm Top

Another example of how we used to do immigration:

Clement Attlee took in Jewish child refugee who fled Nazis (Guardian)

For those across the Pond who might not know who Attlee was: Clement Attlee, the Labour prime minister whose government founded the welfare state, looked after a child refugee who escaped from the Nazis in the months leading up to the second world war, it can be revealed. The then leader of the opposition sponsored a Jewish mother and her two children, giving them the confidence and authorisation to leave Germany in 1939 and move to the UK...

34margd
Nov 21, 2018, 3:00pm Top

>27 margd: contd. Indian girl's first snow (Ontario): builds snow man 'er "snow auntie". :)

..."My friend Daljit Waraich came from India and it was her first winter here in Brampton!" says Jassu Kingra, 19, who first posted photos of the creation to her Instagram page on Friday. "She called me and told me she wanted to build a snowman, and then she asked how to build it and I invited her over to our house."

With the help of her Jassu's two younger sisters Navi, 15 and Bini, 9, the teen girls built what turned out to be a flawless, three-tiered snowman.

"We wanted it to be perfect because we wanted to post it on our social media sites," she explained. "And my friend wanted to show her family in India, so we had to make it perfect and show her family that Canada is the best even during the winter!"

Jassu says that the girls were inspired to "do something different" with their creation. "We always see regular snowmen...we wanted to add a traditional touch to it."

So, at Navi's suggestion, the girls added jewellery and false lashes—perfect to promote their respective beauty and jewellery-focused Instagram business accounts.

https://www.blogto.com/arts/2018/11/brampton-snow-woman-breaks-internet/

38margd
Nov 27, 2018, 6:46am Top

Trans Woman Was Beaten in ICE Custody Before Death, Autopsy Finds
Scott Bixby, Betsy Woodruff | 11.26.18

...Roxsana Hernández Rodriguez, 33, a transgender woman from Honduras, died on May 25, nine days after being transferred to a dedicated unit for transgender women at the Cibola County Correctional Center in New Mexico, which is operated under contract by CoreCivic, the second-largest private prison company in the United States.

“There she developed severe diarrhea and vomiting over the course of several days,” wrote forensic pathologist Kris Sperry, “and finally was emergently hospitalized, then transported to Lovelace Medical Center in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where she remained critically ill until her death.”

...cause of death was most likely “severe complications of dehydration superimposed upon HIV infection,” which made her susceptible to the physiologic effects of untreated dehydration.

“According to observations of other detainees who were with Ms. Hernández Rodriguez, the diarrhea and vomiting episodes persisted over multiple days with no medical evaluation or treatment, until she was gravely ill,” Sperry wrote.

Sperry’s autopsy, the second conducted on Hernández Rodriguez’s body following her death, also found evidence of physical abuse, with “deep bruising” on her hands and abdomen, evidence of blunt-force trauma “indicative of blows, and/or kicks, and possible strikes with blunt object.” An accompanying diagram illustrated long, thin bruises along Hernández Rodriguez’s back and sides, as well as extensive hemorrhaging on Hernández Rodriguez’s right and left wrists, which Dr. Sperry found were “typical of handcuff injuries.”

...a month before her death, Hernández Rodriguez said she decided to flee Honduras after she was gang-raped by four members of the MS-13 gang, resulting in her being infected with HIV. “Trans people in my neighborhood are killed and chopped into pieces, then dumped inside potato bags,” Hernández Rodriguez said at the time. “I didn’t want to come to Mexico—I wanted to stay in Honduras but I couldn’t… They kill trans people in Honduras. I’m scared of that.” LGBT people in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras are uniquely susceptible to violence and persecution, as well as during their travels in pursuit of asylum.

...Hernández Rodriguez, known as “Roxy” to her friends, decided to travel more than 2,000 miles with 1,300 other migrants hoping to claim asylum in the United States, making a six-week journey across Mexico organized by Pueblo Sin Fronteras.

After arriving at the U.S. border and asking for asylum at the San Ysidro Port of Entry on the U.S.-Mexico border near San Diego, she was taken into custody on May 9.

After being held for five days, she was transferred to the Cibola facility that houses a dedicated “pod” for transgender women, which ICE says is run by medical and detention staff trained in “best practices for the care of transgender individuals.” Less than three weeks after arriving in the U.S., she was dead.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trans-woman-roxsana-hernandez-rodriguez-beaten-in-...

392wonderY
Edited: Nov 28, 2018, 11:23am Top

A volunteer at the border wrote a searing opinion piece in the Houston Chronicle:

When we hurt migrants, we hurt Americans

What I saw at the border was far worse than I imagined, not only because of what these families experienced, but because of what had happened to the American workers guarding them.

The next interview made my stomach churn all over again. All that week Laura and I had worked with a Salvadoran mother who had seen authorities in her town beat someone nearly to death. This time, she told us what she experienced herself. At the hands of Americans.

Shivering and exhausted after crossing the Rio Grande River, the woman and her small daughter encountered U.S. border agents almost immediately. The officials drove them to the Port Isabel detention center in Brownsville — and the hielera. The icebox. A routine, and controversial, part of the border control process, the hielera is an ice-cold cell with concrete floors where newly apprehended migrants are jammed often for days. Forbidden to huddle for warmth, with no protection except Mylar sheets, the women in the hielera begged border control agents for sweaters.

“They laughed,” the mother told us. “A group of them fanned themselves and said, ‘Whew, it’s hot in here! Let’s turn up the air conditioning.’”

From the hielera, officers transferred the woman to the perrera, the dog kennel. Here, in a cell crammed with dozens of other women, trays of disgusting food such as still-frozen bologna were kicked across the cell floor. She told us that once, after a day with no food at all, a guard opened the door at 3 a.m. and hurled in packs of crackers, as if to animals.

At late-night dinners all that week, my co-workers described similar stories. One talked to a small boy who said he was told by guards to sign a paper he couldn’t read or have his fingers chopped off. Another interviewed an 8-year-old who watched guards kicking a teenager over and over in the ice box room. Child welfare workers and lawyers have documented thousands of similar reports.

What had happened to so many of these working dads and moms, that they could see a girl freezing in a concrete room and laugh? How could these regular Americans tell a boy his fingers would be severed if he disobeyed? The zero-tolerance detention policy was designed with full knowledge of how it would damage children. But its most far-reaching effect may be the way it has distorted American men and women who enforce it.

Months later I’m back at home, and whenever I dissolve into sleep I often see something familiar as well: a girl who looks a lot like my daughters, intently coloring a picture. Just as often, I see darkness and feel sick. I have the sensation that I’ve been in a place where something was wrong, something infectious. It was cruelty, spreading from person to person, among ordinary Americans not any different from me.

40johnthefireman
Nov 29, 2018, 6:35am Top

Six charts on the immigrants who call the US home (BBC)

Today, nearly 14% of the population of the US was born overseas. This is a sharp rise from the historical low of just under 5% in 1970 but roughly the same as between 1870 and 1910...

Most immigrants to the US are in the country legally...

Immigrants are more likely to have a master's degree or doctorate than the children of parents born in the US...

42margd
Dec 3, 2018, 11:20am Top

China Hails Progress on U.S. Student Visas While Trump Stays Silent
Bruce Einhorn | December 3, 2018

White House didn’t mention Chinese students in statement
U.S. lawmakers have said China uses students for espionage

Earlier this year, Trump’s administration revealed plans to curtail the ability of some Chinese students to stay in the U.S. -- part of what it deemed a campaign to thwart foreign attempts to steal American intellectual property. During an August dinner with CEOs and senior staffers, Trump claimed that almost every student coming to the U.S. from China “is a spy,” according to Politico.

...A June White House report identified Chinese students as potential threats to national security, saying China accounts for some 25 percent of graduate students in the U.S. specializing in science, technology, engineering or math. Beijing “may seek to manipulate or pressure even unwitting or unwilling Chinese nationals into becoming non-traditional information collectors” to serve its military and strategic ambitions, the report said.

It followed the administration’s May decision to set limits on Chinese visa applications, cutting short the amount of time some Chinese citizens could stay in the U.S. and maintaining the existing policy of five years’ maximum validity for student visas.

...Of more than 1 million international students in the U.S. in the 2017-2018 school year, one-third came from China, according to the Institute of International Education, a New York non-profit organization...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-03/china-hails-progress-on-u-s-s...

43johnthefireman
Dec 6, 2018, 12:31am Top

Myths about migrants spreading disease 'inform hostile policies' (Guardian)

Report says migrants more likely to contribute than to damage health of host nations

45mamzel
Dec 6, 2018, 1:06pm Top

I was so sorry to hear that all those servicemen will have to stay there to Jan. 31 which means they'll miss any chance of being with their families for the holidays.

46margd
Dec 8, 2018, 6:27am Top

>45 mamzel: I know... :( At Thanksgiving Trump said don't feel sorry for them, that soldiers are tough guys.
Maybe, but they have families and sometimes children, who will be missing their mommies and daddies--for what?
Support for this particular president must surely be waning in the military.
____________________________________________

Appeals court denies Trump bid to reinstate asylum ban
Chris Mills Rodrigo - 12/07/18

The San Francisco-based 9th Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday denied the Trump administration's effort to delay a judge's order blocking enforcement of its asylum policy.

...Judge Jon Tigar of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California...sided with opponents of President Trump’s policy, granting their request for a temporary restraining order against the policy denying asylum to migrants who enter the U.S. illegally.

...Trump blasted the decision while dismissing Tigar as "an Obama judge" – a remark that drew a rare public rebuke from Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts.

...The Trump administration appealed Tigar's decision (to 9th Circuit Court) in late November, saying that (district) court’s delay, which lasts for 30 days, undermined the president’s determination that an immediate temporary suspension of entry between ports of entry was necessary to address the ongoing and increasing crisis facing our immigration system.

Friday's decision denies that appeal...

(Decision posted at website)

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/420371-appeals-court-denies-trump-b...



47margd
Dec 8, 2018, 9:09am Top

2 More Immigrants Say They Worked for Trump Despite Lacking Legal Status
Miriam Jordan | Dec. 7, 2018

...Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, N.J...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/us/trump-undocumented-workers-bedminster-golf...

482wonderY
Dec 15, 2018, 7:24pm Top

The Trump administration’s next targeted group has California GOP unhappy. Vietnamese migrants have traditionally leaned Republican in Orange County.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/15/trump-vietnam-war-refugees-california-...

49margd
Dec 16, 2018, 6:38am Top

Driven away from home by climate change
UN World Food Programme | Dec 12, 2018

As the Climate Change Conference (COP 24) is underway in Katowice, Poland, we look at how communities in the Central American Dry Corridor are left with a stark choice: adapt to a changing climate or leave

...the Dry Corridor, a region that spans the length of Central America, from southern Mexico all the way down to Panama.

...Climate change, with more frequent and intense extreme weather events as well as slower-onset effects such as land degradation and pests infestations, is making life even harder for rural communities in the Dry Corridor that were already barely subsisting. Unable to put enough food on the table for their families, many are driven away from their lands...

https://insight.wfp.org/driven-away-from-home-by-climate-change-e37a65871f36

__________________________________________________​

New study examines links between emigration and food insecurity in the Dry Corridor of El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras
UN WFP | 23 August 2017

WASHINGTON, D.C. – A new inter-agency study released today found a correlation between the prolonged droughts in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras – exacerbated by El Niño phenomenon from 2014 to 2016 — and the increase in irregular migration from these countries to the United States of America...

https://www.wfp.org/news/news-release/new-study-examines-links-between-emigratio...

502wonderY
Dec 17, 2018, 1:05pm Top

This story in The Washington Post today brought tears to my eyes ~
(stupid, stupid government decisions)

A Haitian asylum seeker had spent two years in U.S. detention until an Ohio couple tried to do something about it

Ansly Damus, a Haitian ethics professor who had come to the California-Mexico border in the fall of 2016 to seek asylum. Rather than enter the country illegally, Damus had followed U.S. protocol by presenting himself to Border Patrol and saying he feared for his life. Then he had been handcuffed and flown to a detention facility with empty beds in Ohio, where he’d spent the past two years waiting for a final resolution in his case.

The government had denied Damus parole because it considered him a flight risk with no meaningful connections in Ohio, but now the courtroom was filled with Ohioans who had come to support him.

“Yesterday was the first day Mr. Damus had seen daylight in over two years,” his lawyer told the judge.

U.S. District Judge Judith Levy glanced at the briefings and then looked at Damus. She said the Ohioans in the courtroom were evidence that he had “a community that cared about him.” She said the government had offered no proof that he was a danger or a flight risk. She said: “This restriction on Mr. Damus’s liberty is extraordinary.”

When they found out he had no way to communicate with his wife because the jail didn’t allow detainees to use email or make international calls, they contacted his wife on Facebook and began relaying messages between them.

During his time in jail he had slept on a metal cot in a room with 20 people, where the lights remained on at night for security. Now he traced his hands across the four-post bed and the decorative pillows, familiarizing himself with this latest stop on the long path toward asylum in the United States: not with his family but with a family, not in his home but in a house, not free but no longer detained. He took out his Bible and asked Hart and Benjamin to hold his hands.

51prosfilaes
Dec 17, 2018, 11:54pm Top

>48 2wonderY: There's arguments about immigration, but these are people who are already here, refugees from a war we lost who we agreed not to send back two decades ago. This is just cruel.

532wonderY
Dec 18, 2018, 1:08pm Top

Tucker Carlson Dropped by at Least 7 Advertisers in Wake of Immigration Flap

At least seven advertisers have now dropped “Tucker Carlson Tonight” after the Fox News host said in a show last Thursday that immigrants to the United States made the country “poorer” and “dirtier.”

As of Tuesday morning, Pacific Life, Indeed, Bowflex, SmileDirectClub, NerdWallet, Minted and Ancestry.com had all announced plans to suspend advertising on the program.

The pressure, however, has only grown with each defection, as liberal pressure groups like Media Matters for America and Sleeping Giants have kept up the pressure on Twitter. Activists like Jordan Uhl and Judd Legum posted real-time updates to their massive followings of companies whose ads appeared on Monday night’s show.

On Monday, Fox News also said it would stand by Carlson and would survive the latest boycott against one of its top-rated hosts. “It is a shame that left-wing advocacy groups, under the guise of being supposed ‘media watchdogs’ weaponize social media against companies in an effort to stifle free speech,” a network rep said

54prosfilaes
Dec 18, 2018, 4:06pm Top

>53 2wonderY: immigrants to the United States made the country “poorer” and “dirtier.”

I would avoid putting too much emphasis on "poorer"; that's at least a debatable factual question. Keep the emphasis on "dirtier"; there's really no way to interpret that factually, or any other way than racist.

55margd
Dec 19, 2018, 7:55am Top

A switch to renewable energy is another action the US could take to ease conditions in the "Dry Corridor".
(It's perverse for climate-denier to block people trying to escape results of his non-action.)
Good for Mexico, on its "Marshall Plan" for Central America. Applause for Trump on hold until we see execution.

U.S., Supporting Mexico’s Plan, Will Invest $5.8 Billion in Central America
Gardiner Harris and Azam Ahmed | Dec. 18, 2018

...Mexico’s new president, Andrés Manuel López Obrador, introduced what he called a “Marshall Plan” last week to address the root causes of Central American migration: a $30 billion initiative to invest in the region and welcome migrants into Mexico with visas, health care and employment.

On Tuesday, the Trump administration signaled its support for the plan, saying it was committing $5.8 billion in private and public investments in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. Much of that amount, however, was previously committed or contingent on the identification of “commercially viable projects.”

...Although Mr. Obrador’s goal of getting $30 billion in shared commitments to regional development remains far-off, Mexico welcomed the United States’ announcement.

“This appears to us to be a very positive step,” said Marcelo Ebrard, Mexico’s foreign minister and one of the chief architects of the regional development proposal.

The Obama administration invested heavily in Central America, hoping that economic development, police training and a shared sense of commitment would stem a growing tide of migrants — children in particular — traveling through Mexico to get to the United States.

The programs are widely seen as successful, and American diplomats posted in the region consider them vital.

Mr. Trump has, on occasion, threatened to end all such aid unless migration from the region ends entirely, something few diplomats see as possible.

The Trump administration has also repeatedly sought to cut foreign aid in general, only to see it restored by Congress, and there was little about Tuesday’s announcement that suggested that dynamic would change. Mick Mulvaney, the White House budget director and now the acting White House chief of staff, is particularly skeptical of the value of foreign aid.

“Since President Trump took office, Congress has rejected his misguided effort to slash foreign assistance to Central America,” Representative Eliot L. Engel, Democrat of New York, who is expected to lead the House Foreign Affairs Committee next year, said on Tuesday.

“So it should come as no surprise,” he added, “that Democrats in Congress are skeptical about the Trump administration’s rhetorical commitment to new funding for Central America and southern Mexico to address the root causes of child migration.”...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/politics/united-states-mexico-central-amer...

562wonderY
Edited: Dec 19, 2018, 4:43pm Top

Judge orders deported asylum seekers to be returned to US, in Trump administration rebuke

A federal judge on Wednesday took the extraordinary step of ordering that asylum seekers who sued after their deportation be returned to the U.S. to have their claims heard anew, ruling against the Trump administration's revised asylum policies.

The ruling is from U.S. District Judge Emmet Sullivan in Washington...
In his sweeping ruling Wednesday against the Trump administration's immigration policies, Sullivan said recent changes violated federal law.

“The Court holds that it has jurisdiction to hear plaintiffs’ challenges to the credible fear policies, that it has the authority to order the injunctive relief, and that, with the exception of two policies, the new credible fear policies are arbitrary, capricious, and in violation of the immigration laws,” Sullivan concluded.

eta another story with a bit more detail

Trump admin can't limit asylum protections for domestic and gang violence victims, judge rules

In a rebuke of the policy established by former Attorney General Jeff Sessions, Judge Emmet Sullivan agreed with a group of women and children who argued the policy unlawfully imposed a heightened standard in reviewing their claims, concluding that the administration must stop deporting migrants currently in the US "without first providing credible fear determinations consistent with the immigration laws."

57margd
Dec 29, 2018, 11:53am Top

New Jersey AG has obtained evidence of possible crimes at Trump's golf club — and Mueller, FBI are involved in probe
Chris Sommerfeldt | Dec 29, 2018

New Jersey prosecutors have collected evidence that supervisors at President Trump’s Garden State golf club may have committed federal immigration crimes — and the FBI as well as special counsel Robert Mueller have played part in the inquiry...

Anibal Romero, a Newark attorney who represents several undocumented immigrants who used to work at the Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, said Friday he recently met with investigators from the state attorney general’s office and handed over fraudulent green cards and Social Security numbers that management at the club allegedly procured and gave his clients, Victorina Morales and Sandra Diaz...

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-pol-fbi-ag-evidence-crimes-trump-go...

58margd
Dec 29, 2018, 12:49pm Top

New Jersey AG has obtained evidence of possible crimes at Trump's golf club — and Mueller, FBI are involved in probe
Chris Sommerfeldt | Dec 29, 2018

New Jersey prosecutors have collected evidence that supervisors at President Trump’s Garden State golf club may have committed federal immigration crimes — and the FBI as well as special counsel Robert Mueller have played part in the inquiry, the Daily News has learned.

Anibal Romero, a Newark attorney who represents several undocumented immigrants who used to work at the Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, said Friday he recently met with investigators from the state attorney general’s office and handed over fraudulent green cards and Social Security numbers that management at the club allegedly procured and gave his clients, Victorina Morales and Sandra Diaz...

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-pol-fbi-ag-evidence-crimes-trump-go...

59johnthefireman
Dec 31, 2018, 12:38am Top

Not the USA, but another example of the positive influence of immigrants - something which should be obvious to anyone in the USA since your current nation was built by immigrants.

Festival to celebrate second world war refugees' influence on British culture (Guardian)

60johnthefireman
Dec 31, 2018, 6:29am Top

I came across this story today in a document I am editing:

One summer in Arizona, as temperatures reached 120 degrees, a group called the Samaritans sent volunteers to keep watch for any immigrants who might be in need or distress. When a group of 20 immigrants came walking along a dry river bed, a volunteer called out to them from a ledge on a hill and asked, “Is anybody injured?” “Do you need any food?” “Do you have any water?” Suddenly the group of immigrants stopped. Unsure of who was speaking to them, they huddled together and deliberated awhile. Then slowly the leader began walking toward the Samaritan volunteers and said, “We don’t have any more food. And we only have a little bit of water. But if you are in need of it, we will share what we have with you.


Daniel G. Groody, C.S.C., “Jesus and the Undocumented Immigrant: A Spiritual Geography of A Crucified People,” Theological Studies, 70 (2009) pg. 298

61TrippB
Edited: Jan 1, 8:48pm Top

That’s a nice…story.

Another very plausible ending is that the group, not fully understanding the inquiries, bashed in the skull of the Samaritan, took everything they could find of value, and continued on their way.

That’s the problem with uncontrolled immigration--or perhaps worse, immigration policy and legislation that’s violated with near-impunity by hordes of illegal aliens sneaking around inadequate border controls—you never know what you're going to get.

In the last week, a twice-deported illegal alien gave assistance to another illegal alien who allegedly mercilessly murdered Corporal Ronil Singh, a police officer, husband, and father. Officer Singh had gone through all the required administrative hurdles to legally immigrate to the U.S. Officer Singh’s accused murderer should have been deported long ago, but California’s sanctuary protections prevented that.

I’m very much in favor of legal immigration, but there’s an undeniable fact that some people prefer to ignore: illegal aliens have raped, robbed, assaulted, or murdered many thousands of innocent Americans. People who have proven themselves to be unworthy should not be allowed into the U.S., and there should be no “sanctuary” cities to protect them.

One assessment reports that illegal immigrants cost the U.S. taxpayers $113 billion per year. Border controls between the U.S. and Mexico have never been adequate. I hope President Trump holds out for the appropriation ($5 billion, or whatever) to build a wall that will help to address this dangerous threat to Americans. I’m also in favor of cutting all federal funding to any city or state that declares themselves to be a sanctuary for illegal (aka criminal) aliens.

62prosfilaes
Jan 1, 11:18pm Top

>61 TrippB: Another very plausible ending is that the group, not fully understanding the inquiries, bashed in the skull of the Samaritan, took everything they could find of value, and continued on their way.

Another very plausible ending is that the Samaritan saw that the immigrants had no weapons, shot the adults and is keeping the kids in his basement. We can make up any number of stories.

You don't offer any sources for your numbers. Americans have raped, robbed, assaulted or murdered many thousands of innocent Americans, at a generally higher level than illegal immigrants. The numbers for the cost of illegal immigrants come all over the places; the Cato Institute offers $3.3-$15.6 billion a year.* My understanding is that illegal immigrants are necessary for farming, that farmers can't find Americans will work a full season in the fields.

And the question is how helpful the wall will be at changing anything about immigration. Will it be $22 billion dollars worth?** It won't stop drugs; they come in in trucks and boats, not hand-carried over the wall. How much will it stop immigrants, who already get smuggled through borders in trucks or by tunnels?

* https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/fact-check/2018/06/26/paul-gosar-h...

** https://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/apr/28/scott-peters/would-...

*** https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/08/opinions/border-wall-cartels-trump-opinion-dr...

63TrippB
Jan 1, 11:48pm Top

Nice try. Predictable, but irrelevant.

Illegal aliens have killed, raped, and robbed thousands of Americans. To say they haven't is ridiculous. Show any credible numbers to say they haven't, from any sources. You can't, because they have. Without question.

Yes, Americans have also committed such travesties, but that, let me be very clear here, is not relevant. Illegal aliens are additional--additional--and unnecessary, threats to the population where statistics on crime already exist. Keep the illegal criminals out and they have no opportunity to offend.

Evil, upon evil, does not justify the source.

I just moved back to the U.S. from Europe. Charge me more for vegetables and fruit. I'm used to it, and it would be preferable to subsidizing illegal labor. There weren't so many social negatives in Europe for paying more for farm labor.

A wall will stop many of the trucks currently bringing drugs over the border, and even more of the mules (people) carrying sacks of drugs on their backs. I don't particularly care about the drugs. In terms of quantity, low quality (extremely low quality) Mexican marijuana is a low-level nuisance. The heroin and meth is more of an issue that can be addressed, in part, with an effective wall. Instead of drugs, I'd much prefer to block anchor babies.

64TrippB
Jan 1, 11:55pm Top

“My understanding is that illegal immigrants are necessary for farming, that farmers can't find Americans will work a full season in the fields.”

A nice argument for welfare reform.

65TrippB
Jan 2, 12:07am Top

Regarding my time in Europe, let me share a few realities of immigration in other parts of the world. When I arrived, it was immediately made clear to me that, without their version of a green card, I was unable to find a rental home; I was prevented from opening a bank account; there would be no electricity or cable TV. I was not even able to get a mobile telephone. Illegal immigrants get access to nothing. Nothing.

In the U.S., there are few hurdles. illegal aliens can even get drivers licenses. No other civilized part of the world does such things.

66jjwilson61
Jan 2, 1:07am Top

>63 TrippB: Illegal aliens have killed, raped, and robbed thousands of Americans. To say they haven't is ridiculous. Show any credible numbers to say they haven't, from any sources. You can't, because they have. Without question.

So what? If the level of nefarious dudes in the incoming population is less than the level of nefarious dudes in the native population than the overall level of nefarious dudes in the whole population will decrease. It's simple math.

67prosfilaes
Jan 2, 1:20am Top

>63 TrippB: Yes, Americans have also committed such travesties, but that, let me be very clear here, is not relevant. Illegal aliens are additional--additional--and unnecessary, threats to the population where statistics on crime already exist. Keep the illegal criminals out and they have no opportunity to offend.

Why isn't it relevant? Why did we let you back into the country? People like you have robbed, raped and killed thousands. This was a perfect change to stop people returning to the US from offending.

A wall will stop many of the trucks currently bringing drugs over the border

How? They're driving through current entrance points with Border Patrol inspections. You can't build a wall in the ocean, and they're running tunnels under the existing walls.

I'd much prefer to block anchor babies.

Stable societies have certain age demographics. Japan and large parts of the Western world are in trouble with the way they have too many old and retired people and not enough younger people to keep things go. Immigration is keeping America young, and thus permitting us to continue to support our older population.

68jjwilson61
Jan 2, 10:19am Top

>67 prosfilaes: Why isn't it relevant? Why did we let you back into the country? People like you have robbed, raped and killed thousands. This was a perfect change to stop people returning to the US from offending.

That hints at a better answer than I gave before. That we shouldn't be judging whole classes of people as murderers and rapists because a few of them (or even many of them just to stretch the point) might be.

69TrippB
Jan 3, 8:25pm Top

“…we shouldn't be judging whole classes of people as murderers and rapists because a few of them (or even many of them just to stretch the point) might be.”

We don’t need to judge them. Too many have already been judged, convicted, sentenced, and deported. And then they come back, with no difficulty at all because it’s too easy to just stroll across the US-Mexican border. Some have done it multiple times. Then some of those repeatedly deported people commit additional horrendous crimes—again.

Why should we allow unlimited immigration of unskilled, uneducated, unvaccinated people—who have no qualms flaunting our laws—into the country anyway? More than a few studies have shown that that illegal aliens disproportionately rely on public services. The U.S. is a land of proven opportunity that good people all over the world want to join right now. Highly educated, peaceful, and eager people are ready to join our society as good neighbors and be immediately productive. Why should criminals (and every illegal alien is a criminal) be allowed to jump to the front of the line?

Immigration benefits our society when properly managed. I’m happy to welcome good people who respect our laws and want to pursue the American Dream.

70RickHarsch
Jan 3, 9:31pm Top

Why? because rich folk hire them.

71TrippB
Jan 3, 9:39pm Top

I'm ok with that. initiate a temporary guest worker program, and let them cross the border legally to earn fair wages before they return home when they want, without exploiting the generosity of American social programs, and without blocking the path of immigrants who want to be Americans.

72prosfilaes
Edited: Jan 3, 10:10pm Top

>69 TrippB: Too many have already been judged, convicted, sentenced, ...

Again, what group is that not true of? Americans returning from overseas are surely not an exception. In fact, there's a notorious group of Americans who go overseas to participate in the child sex trade; why should we let them back in?

More than a few studies...

Proof by handwaving. When you can't find a study, claim there's many studies and go on.

Why should we allow unlimited immigration...

Why should we build a wall across private land and protected nature to hamper a small percentage of immigrants?

of unskilled, uneducated,

Because they do jobs Americans don't want to do. Why should we let a stream of Indian and Chinese programmers take jobs Americans can do at much deflated prices? The argument is a little emotional and personal, but I get real tired of people complaining about letting immigrants in to do jobs Americans don't want to do, but being willing to let immigrants in to undercut me at my job.

unvaccinated people

"But that's nationalistic nonsense. According to World Health Organization estimates, the U.S. has a measles vaccination rate of 92 percent, while Mexico and Nicaragua have 99 percent vaccination rates and Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador each have 93 percent vaccination rates. If anything, those countries should be concerned about Americans coming down to visit." Peter Weber with The Week. And that is how a citation works.

who have no qualms flaunting our laws ... (and every illegal alien is a criminal)

And notice how Napster totally failed in the US, because no American would ever commit criminal copyright infringement. Whoops, when Napster hit it big, everyone was using it and violating 17 U.S.C. § 506(a) at a felony level, and many people I know have continued to pirate Game of Thrones or whatever. But that's copyright infringement, right? It's not like anyone would drink before they were 21, which is a misdemeanor, just like illegal entry to the US. Wait, most Americans did? It's almost like almost everyone is willing to ignore a few laws, with less justification than migrants trying to provide a good life for their family.

73TrippB
Jan 3, 11:03pm Top

Napster? That and a few perverts are all you have? That is amusing. I'll take your WHO stats on a few countries comprising many of our illegal aliens, but there are people from all over the world sneaking in through Mexico.

Child sex trade? Agreed. Detain those returning pedophiles. If they’re American citizens, they’re entitled to full due process, and, if deemed guilty, I hope they’re separated from society. Illegal aliens should not be equally entitled. If they’re illegal, it’s easier to just deport them for their immigration violations. Forever. One strike as an immigrant, and that should be all we tolerate.

Here’s one study that says there are 22 million illegal, criminal, aliens are in the U.S. (https://thehill.com/latino/407848-yale-mit-study-22-million-not-11-million-undoc...). No handwaving. This is an informal little chat room, not a scientific or academic publication. You want stats, do your own research.

If illegal immigrants are committing a few IPR violations, they won’t get much attention. Unfortunately, too many immigrants are killing people with DUIs, domestic assaults, robberies, and gang offenses (and I don’t care if that’s being done by just a small percentage).

The U.S. doesn’t need any more human trash. As you’ve pointed out, we’ve generated enough domestically. Why welcome more? I've talked with wonderful people in Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and other parts of the world who would love to get a work or immigration visa in the US, but it isn't easy for them, and they wouldn't consider demanding entry by sneaking across the border...because they are not criminals.

Again, one strike from an immigrant awaiting citizenship is enough. Deport them, and good riddance.

74johnthefireman
Edited: Jan 3, 11:41pm Top

>69 TrippB: Immigration benefits our society when properly managed. I’m happy to welcome good people who respect our laws and want to pursue the American Dream.

Who can disagree? But the reality is that the USA and most other developed nations do not have a system which is fit for the purpose of welcoming people. They are blocked by bureaucracy, cost, often geographical constraints, by petty rules and restrictions, being made to jump through hoops which are very difficult to meet. Many of those who need and deserve to be allowed in legally are not allowed, and in their desperation they therefore come "illegally".

Why should we allow unlimited immigration of unskilled, uneducated, unvaccinated people—who have no qualms flaunting our laws—into the country anyway?

I recall a poster I saw in the Australian council of churches office a few years ago. It depicted two Aboriginal Australians leaning on their spears watching a British sailing ship coming into the bay. One says to the other, "Look, another boatload of undocumented immigrants. They're probably all criminals, and riddled with disease". The same image could probably be reproduced in the USA showing Native Americans watching one of your boatloads of pilgrims arriving. Incidentally one part of the American myth is how these Native Americans actually welcomed and helped these new immigrants (Thanksgiving), who were hopelessly ignorant and unprepared.

I would put the question the other way round. Why shouldn't we welcome people in need, whether into north America or Europe? As a lot of evidence shows, not only is it the right thing to do morally, but as our own populations fall we need fresh young people to do the work (not only the unskilled agricultural labour) and to pay taxes to keep our nations functioning.

75prosfilaes
Jan 4, 12:38am Top

>73 TrippB: Napster? That and a few perverts are all you have? That is amusing.

Exactly. You try and use "illegal" to condemn them, but you don't really care about illegalities. There are over 300 million illegal criminal people in the US, but you would never use those words to refer to them. You're not using felony copyright infringement as an excuse to condemn Americans, but you'll use misdemeanor illegal entry to condemn immigrants.

they wouldn't consider demanding entry by sneaking across the border...because they are not criminals.

Really? Because I bet that's not true. I bet they've committed more than one misdemeanor in their life, possibly even casual felonies. They wouldn't sneak across the border because the risk/benefit analysis doesn't justify it. If they were running for their life, or their family's lives, they wouldn't hesitate it.

This is an informal little chat room, not a scientific or academic publication. You want stats, do your own research.

This is not a chat room. This is a forum where you can take your time writing your posts. You don't have to offer cites, but I don't see why I have to trust uncited claims.

76johnthefireman
Edited: Jan 4, 12:59am Top

>73 TrippB: pedophiles. If they’re American citizens, they’re entitled to full due process, and, if deemed guilty, I hope they’re separated from society. Illegal aliens should not be equally entitled. If they’re illegal, it’s easier to just deport them for their immigration violations

Thus just passing the paedophilia problem onto someone else. You know the Catholic Church used to do this, just moving paedophile priests somewhere else where they could rape more children. The church was roundly (and rightly) condemned for this practice. You are now suggesting that the US government do the same?

22 million illegal, criminal, aliens are in the U.S.

Those 22 million may be "illegal" and "criminal" in the sense that they have broken an immigration law. They are not criminals in the sense of being rapists, thieves and murderers, which you appear to want to protect US citizens from. The vast majority of them are no threat to anyone.

The U.S. doesn’t need any more human trash

The use of the term "human trash" is very telling. I prefer to refer to people as "human beings".

77margd
Jan 4, 6:43am Top

The demographic time bomb that could hit America
Catherine Rampell | December 31, 2018

...Japan has learned the opposite lesson of the United States: If you want more babies, find ways to make it easier for working people to have kids — through both more family-friendly workplace policies and a more liberal immigration system. (Immigrants, by the way, tend to have more babies than do native-born Americans.)

And preferably, do all this before the demographic time bomb explodes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/can-the-us-avoid-japans-demographic-disa...

78TrippB
Edited: Jan 4, 5:56pm Top

"…. two Aboriginal Australians leaning on their spears watching a British sailing ship coming into the bay. One says to the other, "Look, another boatload of undocumented immigrants.”

Exactly! History is full of similar lessons on the consequences of allowing unlimited immigration.

The use of the term "human trash" is very telling.

I’ll take that. The cold-blooded murder of Officer Singh is what prompted me to post a comment on this issue. If his alleged murderer is guilty as accused, then human trash is too soft a description. I probably am a little more jaded about people who prey on innocent people. I have no remorse about referring to such humans as trash.

79prosfilaes
Edited: Jan 4, 9:01pm Top

>78 TrippB: I’ll take that. The cold-blooded murder of Officer Singh is what prompted me to post a comment on this issue.

So yet another white male murdered someone, but you didn't say anything about white males. A gang member killed someone, but you didn't say anything about gang members. Someone killed an officer when he was pulled over for drunk driving, but you didn't saying anything about alcohol.

80TrippB
Jan 5, 12:07am Top

”So yet another white male murdered someone….”

I know it’s quite trendy to inject race into issues where race is not a factor (especially when you can use the term white male), but it’s still annoying. Who said anything about white males, and how is that in any way relevant?

This discussion topic is about crafting immigration policy in America, and I commented about an extreme failure of immigration policy. My comment was about an individual who is illegally in the U.S. because of failed and inadequate immigration policy; who should have been deported long ago, but wasn’t, because of local rejection and shameful disregard of existing immigration policy; and, who is charged with murdering an innocent legal resident of the U.S.—a murder that would not have happened if we had effective immigration policy.

Sure, we also need to address gang violence and drunk driving, but this particular thread is about immigration.

81jjwilson61
Jan 5, 11:41am Top

>80 TrippB: You took a murder and made it about immigration. But what makes that person's immigration status more relevant than some other factor about him, like his race. That's the issue, not that prosfilaes made it about race but that you made it about immigration.

82TrippB
Jan 5, 4:10pm Top

The issue is that this murder, allegedly committed by an illegal alien who was then aided by another illegal alien, would not have happened if effective immigration controls had been in place. The illegal criminal alien's race is not relevant.

83jjwilson61
Jan 5, 9:39pm Top

I agree. His immigration status isn't relevant either.

84TrippB
Jan 5, 10:01pm Top

Wrong. His immigration status is everything. Officer Singh would be holding his baby, next to his wife, tonight, if that illegal alien had not been been allowed, aided, and even encouraged, to disregard our immigration laws with impunity. Aided by people with attitudes like yours.

85johnthefireman
Jan 6, 12:23am Top

>84 TrippB:

Or maybe he would have committed the murder somewhere else, on the other side of a border? Is the life of a US citizen worth more than the life of a human being in a neighbouring country? Murderers should be stopped and/or arrested, but >83 jjwilson61: is correct - their immigration status is not relevant.

86TrippB
Jan 6, 11:48am Top

It's not a matter of worth, it's a matter of failed immigration policy, and that makes the murderer's immigration status very relevant.

A nation's immigration policy should primarily exist to protect and benefit the society of the country. That means a high priority objective should be to prevent violent people and criminals from entering; and, when they've managed to come in and prove themselves to be violent or criminal, the policy should have a process to expel them and keep them from ever returning. America's immigration policy may state that objective and policy, but it is not effectively implemented.

With hordes of illegal aliens pouring over the border, we don't know who we're getting. Supporters of open borders often like to point to a nice family with young children who just want a better life, at the same time turning a blind eye to gang members, previously deported thugs, and other undesirables. Then sanctuary cities help to hide those undesirables from federal authorities trying to enforce our immigration laws, and special interest groups who profit from illegal aliens make demands to prevent any action to deter, detect, and expel criminal aliens. Far too often, those undesirables then murder, rape, rob, and otherwise prey on our citizens, and people in Internet chat rooms try their best to subvert reality and make claims that immigration status is not relevant in such crimes.

872wonderY
Edited: Jan 6, 12:56pm Top

Even Fox News Has Had Enough of Trump's Anti-Immigrant BS

When Sarah Huckabee Sanders appeared on Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace, it's likely she was expecting more of the encouraging fawning that pervades the network so much of the time. What she got instead was fact-checking and push back. Wallace initially takes issue with Homeland Security secretary Kristjen Nielsen saying that DHS had stopped 3000 "special interest aliens" from entering the U.S.—Wallace points out that this designation only means that these are people who are from the same countries as other terrorists, not people who are suspected terrorists themselves.

Rather than address that point specifically, or at all, Sanders responds by claiming that 4000 "known or suspected terrorists" come into the U.S. illegally, and since the weakest point of entry is the southern border, we need a border wall. Wallace actually interrupts her here:

"Wait, wait, wait, because I know the statistic, I didn't know if you were gonna use it but I studied up on this. Do you know where those 4000 people come from, where they're captured? Airports. The State Department says there hasn't been any terrorist that they've found coming across the southern border."

It's not quite the fury and emotion of Geraldo Rivera's on-air rant about the demonization of immigrants, and it certainly didn't stop Sanders from repeating herself as though she were saying something new. But when faced with a journalist who's supposed to carry water for her and the president, someone she can't attack as a liberally biased "enemy of the people," Sanders suddenly can't come up with anything off script.

88johnthefireman
Jan 6, 11:52pm Top

Venezuela Supreme Court judge Christian Zerpa flees to US (BBC)

Apparently it's much easier to flee to the USA for protection if you are a rich high-profile figure. I'm not saying he shouldn't be welcomed, but cases like his highlight the many who are rejected simply because they are not high-profile.

89prosfilaes
Jan 9, 6:05pm Top

>82 TrippB: The issue is that this murder, allegedly committed by an illegal alien who was then aided by another illegal alien, would not have happened if effective immigration controls had been in place.

It wouldn't have happened if effective white male controls had been in place. If we kept white males out of the country, it wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have happened if we had effective gun control. You can insert anything you want in that spot.

90TrippB
Jan 9, 9:11pm Top

>89 prosfilaes: You can insert anything you want in that spot.

You can insert anything you want, and propose all kinds of what ifs. That doesn't change the fact that if you simply subtract illegal aliens from the incident I mentioned, a father, husband, and police officer would still be alive. You want more? I can fill this discussion topic with similar examples of murders, rapes, robberies, DUI homicides, assaults, and more offenses that would not, could not, have happened if we had effectively addressed illegal immigration sooner.

91prosfilaes
Jan 9, 9:51pm Top

>90 TrippB: And I can fill this discussion topic with way more examples that would not, could not, have happened if we had effectively addressed guns sooner. Or white males.

92TrippB
Jan 9, 10:11pm Top

>91 prosfilaes: Once again, you seem to have difficulty differentiating between supposition and fact. And statistics, for that matter.

One indicator of your bias is that you want to divert the topic to race and gender. The discussion here has been primarily about immigration status, actual violations of existing legislation, and violent crime affecting Americans--not race or gender.

Telling, predictable, and desperate......white males!!!! The last grasp for hopeless attempts to justify a position.

93jjwilson61
Jan 9, 10:19pm Top

>90 TrippB: That doesn't change the fact that if you simply subtract illegal aliens from the incident I mentioned, a father, husband, and police officer would still be alive.

But you can take any set of murderers and come up with some feature that some of them have in common and say if you subtract that group then some people would be alive. You haven't yet explained why the particular feature of being in the country illegally is relevant.

94prosfilaes
Edited: Jan 9, 10:25pm Top

>86 TrippB: it's a matter of failed immigration policy, and that makes the murderer's immigration status very relevant.

That's circular. The murderer's immigration status is only relevant if you consider it a matter of failed immigration policy, and to consider a matter of failed immigration policy, you have to consider the immigration status relevant.

A nation's immigration policy should primarily exist to protect and benefit the society of the country.

It seems the primary concern about "undesirables" is when they're not white; e.g. Trump's complaint about getting too many immigrants from "shithole" countries and too few from Norway. This is backed up by the fact that the majority of illegal immigrants overstay their visa, but all the words are about a wall against Mexico. We could discuss With Folded Hands, but there seems to be a lack of concern about dangerous people and weapons unless they're immigrants that can be accused of being disease carrying.

Where does our society need benefits? I'd say we've failed on being a light on the hill; we make enemies of our neighbors and play patty-cake with dictators. Our society needs to show that we aren't an insular nation, that we love the world and can show them the way. We need reminding that we are brothers and sisters of all humans, and don't have a right to stand superior to them just because of our birth. These are more important than throwing every last cent at a huge wall.

With hordes of illegal aliens pouring over the border, we don't know who we're getting.

Putting my hat as an Oklahoman on, I don't see why I should be more concerned about those crossing the Rio Grande than those crossing the Red River. Texans murder, rape, rob and otherwise prey on Oklahomans, more than immigrants do.

95TrippB
Jan 9, 10:47pm Top

>93 jjwilson61: You haven't yet explained why the particular feature of being in the country illegally is relevant.">

Let me put this a different way...….Many Americans die of heart disease, so why should we pay any attention to ebola? That's how rationalization of illegal immigration sounds to reasonable people.

>94 prosfilaes: Oklahoma is a perfect example of the danger of uncontrolled immigration. Once a sanctuary for Native Americans, it was absolutely overrun with invaders, and the indigenous (or displaced) people of Oklahoma quickly lost their homeland. The particularly evil Sooners exploited both the indigenous people and the laws of the authorities of the time. Their tactics are very much like the people circumventing legal immigration across the southern border now. If you "own" land in Oklahoma, and you really believe your argument, your only recourse is to give your land back to the people from whom it was stolen.

Thank you both for helping to illustrate the necessity of effective immigration laws.

96margd
Jan 10, 10:29am Top

CBS News @CBSNews | 7:44 AM - 9 Jan 2019:
Donald Trump Jr. says border wall is like a zoo fence protecting you from animals https://cbsn.ws/2D0FZUZ

James Martin, SJ @JamesMartinSJ | 6:05 PM - 9 Jan 2019:
The dehumanization of a minority group is a classic way of legitimizing the mistreatment of that group. It happened in Nazi Germany (with Jews described as "vermin") and in Rwanda (with Tutsi as "cockroaches"). This kind of language always leads to violence and, eventually, death

_________________________________________

Also, as posted

97margd
Jan 10, 10:36am Top

Catholic pushback on wall:

BS News @CBSNews | 7:44 AM - 9 Jan 2019:
Donald Trump Jr. says border wall is like a zoo fence protecting you from animals
https://cbsn.ws/2D0FZUZ

James Martin, SJ @JamesMartinSJ | 6:05 PM - 9 Jan 2019:
The dehumanization of a minority group is a classic way of legitimizing the mistreatment of that group. It happened in Nazi Germany (with Jews described as "vermin") and in Rwanda (with Tutsi as "cockroaches"). This kind of language always leads to violence and, eventually, death
__________________________________________________​

Reposted from "Trump screws his base" thread:

Texas landowners (including local Catholic diocese) prepare wall fight; Trump to visit border
NOMAAN MERCHANT | Jan 10, 2018

...The federal government has started surveying land along the border in Texas and announced plans to start construction next month. Rather than surrender their land, some property owners are digging in, vowing to reject buyout offers and preparing to fight the administration in court...if, as expected, it moves to seize their land through eminent domain.

...the administration’s plans call for a concrete wall to the height of the existing levee, with 18-foot (5.5 meters) steel posts on top. CBP wants to clear 150 feet (45 meters) in front of any new construction for an “enforcement zone” of access roads, cameras, and lighting.

The government sued the local Roman Catholic diocese late last year to gain access for its surveyors at the site of La Lomita chapel, which opened in 1865 and was an important site for missionaries who traveled the Rio Grande Valley by horseback.

...The diocese said it opposes a border wall because the barrier violates Catholic teachings and the church’s responsibility to protect migrants, as well as the church’s First Amendment right of religious freedom. A legal group from Georgetown University has joined the diocese in its lawsuit....

https://apnews.com/0b3d63c524214bbdbfb58ce8f61589f0

98jjwilson61
Jan 10, 12:07pm Top

>97 margd: BS News @CBSNews | 7:44 AM - 9 Jan 2019:

Sounds like something Trump would say.

99prosfilaes
Jan 10, 9:55pm Top

>95 TrippB: That's how rationalization of illegal immigration sounds to reasonable people.

By which you mean people who agree with you. I'd say using the phrase "reasonable people" in a discussion to exclude the people you're talking to is pretty unreasonable.

Nice dodge. Do I have the right to object to Texans, who are murders and rapists and some of them might be good people, from coming into Oklahoma?

100johnthefireman
Jan 11, 11:46am Top

US fertility rate is below level needed to replace population, study says (CNN)

Overall, the total fertility rate for the United States in 2017 was 1,765.5 per 1,000 women, which was 16% below what is considered the level needed for a population to replace itself: 2,100 births per 1,000 women...

101TrippB
Edited: Jan 11, 9:15pm Top

>99 prosfilaes: In retrospect, my comments were indeed rather dismissive. I apologize for that.

I do not apologize for the position I hoped to convey. I, and plenty of other people, have grown weary of being told that we must welcome into our neighborhoods violent criminals, drunk drivers, and other undesirables who circumvent quite reasonable immigration laws. Like that loser cousin at the family reunion, we’re stuck with our homegrown criminals, but we certainly have a choice about which immigrants we allow to live, work, and produce new citizens in this fine country. Why take human trash along with all those wonderful families seeking the American Dream?

The statistics regarding illegal aliens and crime are very difficult to compile and assess. I’ve seen the oft-quoted studies that say illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than U.S. citizens. I’ve also seen studies that show those immigrant-friendly studies are bogus, and which provide compelling evidence that illegal aliens commit more violent crime than Americans. Even the Cato study, in the fine print, admits that due to a lack of specific statistics, they use Census Bureau data and statistical modeling (guessing) to come up with their figures. Census data is notorious for not capturing accurate illegal immigrant data.

One study which claimed that illegal aliens commit fewer crimes than citizens also reported that legal immigrants commit 87% fewer crimes than U.S. citizens. That’s a great argument in favor of encouraging legal immigration, and effectively blocking illegal aliens. Good immigrants, who don’t sneak across the border in the dark of night, are the ones we want as neighbors.

102TrippB
Edited: Jan 11, 8:08pm Top

>100 johnthefireman: US fertility rate is below level needed to replace population, study says (CNN)

So what? That is not justification for open borders. There are millions of smart, educated, peaceful people who would love an opportunity to live in the U.S. Our immigration laws should give them a fast track past MS-13 gang members and other human trash that should be blocked by effective border controls, walls included.

Merit-based immigration is favorable to open borders or visa lotteries. More than half of all immigrants to the U.S. are dependent on government support a year after entering. That’s proof we’re bringing in the wrong people. There’s nothing wrong with giving immigration priority to those who can quickly contribute to our society. I’d rather have an immigrant research scientist next door than a semi-retired cartel assassin.

103johnthefireman
Edited: Jan 12, 12:46am Top

>102 TrippB: human trash

Do you mean human beings?

I’d rather have an immigrant research scientist next door than a semi-retired cartel assassin.

If you find yourself living next door to a semi-retired cartel assassin then you should report them to the police and they should be arrested for murder, regardless of whether they are from a homegrown US cartel or any other. Similarly, if you have a research scientist living next door to you then you are probably lucky, regardless of their immigration status. Presumably you would rather have a reasearch scientist living next door to you than a retired US murderer? Murder is murder, regardless of nationality or immigration status.

104margd
Jan 12, 6:28am Top

U.S. approved thousands of child bride requests, lives ruined
Associated Press | Jan 11, 2019

WASHINGTON — Thousands of requests by men to bring in child and adolescent brides to live in the United States were approved over the past decade, according to government data obtained by The Associated Press. In one case, a 49-year-old man applied for admission for a 15-year-old girl.

The approvals are legal: The Immigration and Nationality Act does not set minimum age requirements. And in weighing petitions for spouses or fiancees, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services goes by whether the marriage is legal in the home country and then whether the marriage would be legal in the state where the petitioner lives.

But the data raises questions about whether the immigration system may be enabling forced marriage and about how U.S. laws may be compounding the problem despite efforts to limit child and forced marriage. Marriage between adults and minors is not uncommon in the United States, and most states allow children to marry with some restrictions.

There were more than 5,000 cases of adults petitioning on behalf of minors and nearly 3,000 examples of minors seeking to bring in older spouses or fiances, according to the data requested by the Senate Homeland Security Committee in 2017 and compiled into a report.

Some victims of forced marriage say the lure of a U.S. passport combined with lax U.S. marriage laws are partly fueling the petitions...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/u-s-approved-thousands-child-bride-...

1052wonderY
Jan 12, 11:11am Top

Wonder about the display during Trump's visit to the border?

The showcase prepared by Homeland Security officials for Trump’s visit shows why.

Take the 117 kilos of methamphetamines and 12 kilos of heroin they neatly piled up. Officials at a port of entry discovered them after screening a commercial load with X-ray technology and sniffing dogs. Statistics show stashing illegal cargo in vehicles and driving through ports of entry is the most common way of smuggling in meth and heroin, drugs that are fueling an overdose epidemic in the US.

https://qz.com/1520651/border-patrol-agents-in-texas-showed-trump-why-his-wall-w...

106johnthefireman
Jan 15, 10:45am Top

Trump's right about a crisis at the border – but migrants are the victims (Guardian)

Volunteering on behalf of asylum seekers in Tijuana offered me a firsthand view of the devastation US policies have caused

107prosfilaes
Jan 20, 9:01pm Top

>102 TrippB: There’s nothing wrong with giving immigration priority to those who can quickly contribute to our society.

I was discouraged from continuing my mathematics education because there were over two hundred people applying for one position at UNLV. The positions we need immigrants to fill are of farm labor, not scholars.

I’d rather have an immigrant research scientist next door than a semi-retired cartel assassin.

I'm with johnthefireman, in that I want the assassin arrested. But as for my next door neighbor, I would rather have someone who wanted to live a quiet life away from the action and didn't want to bothered by the law, than a research scientist who knows he's all that and feels it's his right to complain whenever he hears anything through the thin walls. These are somewhat stereotypical, but any argument like that is going to be based on stereotypes.

In a purely theoretical sense, it would be better to have complete control over immigration. The problem comes in the implementation. How do you plan on keeping the semi-retired cartel assassin from coming in? He's not going to be sneaking in anywhere a wall would stop. A quick Google search says a US passport comes out between $1K and $4K, and fake ID papers come in at $2,500. A retired assassin is just going to buy a fake identity and walk through an entry point.

A wall is an expensive, destructive and unproductive solution. We have walls along the border where they're practical; what's left is miles and miles of wilderness where a wall is just going to be climbed with a ladder, while stopping any number of vulnerable species

Ronald Reagan on the campaign trail said:

"I still believe the answer to any problem lies with the people. I believe in states' rights. I believe in people doing as much as they can for themselves at the community level and at the private level, and I believe we've distorted the balance of our government today by giving powers that were never intended in the Constitution to that federal establishment."

You say that liberals always bring up race, so let's ignore the dog whistles there. Since when does the federal government have the right to tell sanctuary cities how to use their police power? These cities argue that not turning illegal immigrants into the federal government means that they can more effectively police the illegal immigrants that are going to be part of their town. States' rights mean that that's their decision (or their state's) to make.

108proximity1
Yesterday, 5:37am Top


>80 TrippB: , >81 jjwilson61: , >84 TrippB: , >86 TrippB: >90 TrippB: , >92 TrippB: ,





>90 TrippB: : That doesn't change the fact that if you simply subtract illegal aliens from the incident I mentioned, a father, husband, and police officer would still be alive.



But you can take any set of murderers and come up with some feature that some of them have in common and say if you subtract that group then some people would be alive. You haven't yet explained why the particular feature of being in the country illegally is relevant.




Wow. Just “wow.”

Uhm, actually, yes, he did explain that—clearly, carefully and completely.

That you missed that is all I need to conclude that you—as is so drearily often the case here—are completely out of your depth in this discussion.

>101 TrippB:


"In retrospect, my comments were indeed rather dismissive. I apologize for that."


It's the others who ought to be posting the apologies to you.

Your posts, arguments and explanations have been been entirely clear and compelling. In fact, forensically, you've 'wiped the floor' with these people—even without laboriously trying to state the obvious about their lame objections.

Here, in a nutshell, is your opponents' view stripped of their delusional politically-correct comforts:


"We can't— and, really, we ought not, even supposing we could— effectively deter the entry of illegal aliens into the U.S. just because some of them are certainly going to eventually commit first-degree felonies once inside the U.S."


In other words, preventing the entry of some who are (as we'd see if we had the chance to stop them and carefully examine their personal histories) extremely likely to commit rape, murder, kidnapping and other felonies is simply not a good enough reason to prohibit people who have no legal right to enter the country from entering it illegally. After all, some, most, even, probably won't commit murder.

That isn't just stupidity--it's suicidal stupidity.

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