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Lefties are so cute, how they think the monsters they create won’t eat them.

Pro and Con

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1Carnophile
Edited: Nov 18, 2018, 12:39pm Top

Politico: Ocasio-Cortez backs campaign to primary fellow Democrats
The incoming congresswoman endorses an effort by the group Justice Democrats to make the House Democratic Caucus more liberal and diverse by taking on incumbents.
...
The incoming congresswoman's chief of staff, Saikat Chakrabarti, a co-founder of Justice Democrats, was blunter.
"We need new leaders, period," he said on the call. "We gotta primary folks."

2Carnophile
Nov 18, 2018, 12:38pm Top

Ocasio-Cortez joins climate change sit-in at Pelosi’s office.

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/416411-youth-protestors-fill-nancy...

3Carnophile
Edited: Nov 18, 2018, 12:56pm Top

Bonus: Ocasio-Cortez claims she was recently mistaken for a Congressional intern and implies this is RACISM! and/or SEXISM!

Her tweet:
Dem Spouse + Member luncheon were at the same time today. I was sent to spouse event.

Last night I was stopped bc it was assumed I was an intern/staffer

Next time try believing women + people of color when they talk about their experiences being a woman or person of color

She’s probably just lying, as one does when one needs a rush of victim crack.

But on the off chance that it actually happened...

You can’t brag about being the youngest woman ever elected to Congress, and also shriek about being mistaken for an intern.

Narcisisstic little asshole.

4KAzevedo
Nov 18, 2018, 3:38pm Top

Wow, well you're sure paying attention, aren't you.

5Carnophile
Dec 31, 2018, 1:42pm Top

Women’s march cancelled for being too white.

The organizers’ press release explains,

“Up to this point, the participants have been overwhelmingly white, lacking representation from several perspectives in our community. Instead of pushing forward with crucial voices absent, the organizing team will take time for more outreach.”

6JGL53
Jan 1, 6:18pm Top

And yet lefties stomped conservative ass in the most recent national election.

And what if they continue to stomp conservative ass in 2020? Well the whining by all the butt-hurt righties will just get louder about the cruelty of life and how evil is triumphing and so forth.

Wake up and smell your own shit, righties. trump and company are full bore in the process of destroying the republican party for god damn good. Just sit back and enjoy the show and STFU about socialism. Socialism is coming soon to a town near you.

lol.

7proximity1
Jan 2, 6:16am Top


>5 Carnophile:

Yeah! "Our strength is in our (racial/ethnic) diversity" works! Who knew!?

LOL! I love this shit!

__________________________________________________

..."the participants have been overwhelmingly white" ...

I feel their pain. I, too, have found that each and every time I've been personally involved in some social action, protest movement, etc., I've always been 'overwhelmingly white'.



8Carnophile
Jan 9, 12:08am Top

Feminist kicked out of bar because she was wearing a T-shirt that defined a woman as an “adult human female.”

https://pjmedia.com/trending/feminist-mom-booted-from-bar-over-t-shirt-with-the-...

9amysisson
Jan 9, 12:24am Top

>3 Carnophile:: She’s probably just lying, as one does when one needs a rush of victim crack.

Baseless accusation much? We have no evidence to support her being a liar. On the other hand:

"“This building the wall should have been done by all of the presidents that preceded me, and they all know it,” he said during a news conference. “Some of them have told me that we should have done it.”"

Yeah, except not so much. The four living ex-presidents pulled that rug out from under Mr. T, didn't they?

10Carnophile
Jan 9, 5:39pm Top

>9 amysisson: "She’s probably just lying, as one does when one needs a rush of victim crack."

Baseless accusation much? We have no evidence to support her being a liar.


WRONG. We have innumerable examples of lefties issuing false accusations of racism, sexism, etc. Leftists do it constantly. See my posts in this thread starting here for just some of the many examples.

11krolik
Jan 9, 6:40pm Top

>10 Carnophile:
Your reference in >3 Carnophile: was to a specific person, and the post in >9 amysisson: responded in regard to that person.

No need to change the subject.

12Carnophile
Jan 9, 8:51pm Top

Wrong again. If the last million people you meet who were wearing purple turtlenecks say, "I was born in Lisbon," and turn out to be lying, then the next person you meet who is wearing purple turtleneck and says, "I was born on Lisbon" is also very probably lying.

It's called empiricism.

13johnthefireman
Edited: Jan 10, 1:25am Top

>12 Carnophile:

Did you ever study probability in maths? (or math, as I believe you say across the Pond).

14Carnophile
Edited: Jan 10, 6:55pm Top

>13 johnthefireman: Did you ever study probability in maths?

This is like your priceless question to me in another thread,

How much do you know about transvestite communities in Asia?

If you have a point to make about #12, just make it.

15krolik
Jan 11, 3:39am Top

>14 Carnophile:
John is probably referring to the "gambler's fallacy."

16johnthefireman
Jan 11, 10:01am Top

>15 krolik:

Thanks, yes.

17Carnophile
Jan 11, 12:37pm Top

The gambler's fallacy is the opposite of what I said, as you two would have seen if you'd actually read the first paragraph of the link in #15.

18amysisson
Jan 11, 1:05pm Top

>10 Carnophile:

Two questions:

1. Do you have specific evidence of Ocasio-Cortez lying?

2. What is your response to the fact that Trump lied about what the ex-Presidents didn't say?

19johnthefireman
Jan 11, 1:57pm Top

>17 Carnophile:

Maybe you didn't read the next few paragraphs?

20TrippB
Jan 11, 8:21pm Top

>18 amysisson: 1. Do you have specific evidence of Ocasio-Cortez lying?

Rather than lying, I think she believes everything she says. She's fantastic. Best Democrat representative in years, and I'm glad she's the new face of the Democrat party.

21proximity1
Edited: Jan 12, 9:40am Top

>20 TrippB:

"I think she believes everything she says."

Yeah? So? I believe I could say, with equal accuracy, the same thing about a whole slew of people you wouldn't approve--they, too, actually believed all or very nearly all of what they said or wrote or, today, what they're saying and writing:

Ayn Rand comes to mind, for example. A whole "rogues' gallery" of elected officials: Democrats and Republicans in the U.S., Tories and, alas, Labour party members in the U.K. Tony Blair, hard to beat for being despicable--but it's possible--is another example. The Clintons, the insufferably smug Obamas--I'm convinced that they really believe the smug, ingratiating bilge they routinely spew at private addresses before their wealthy, high-fee paying audiences.

Hitler and Churchill were both people of stubborn conviction; each believed firmly in an ideology which informed and drove his policy-decisions. But their general aims were irreconcilable in nearly all aspects except one of note: both believed in a future dominated by ever evolving and ever more controlling technological prowess combined, inevitably, with ever more rationalized administrative practices in an elite-dominated world of social, political and economic "Mandarins" who rule the world's social and business affairs in their respective domains. Ayn Rand, too, subscribed to this view. Still, at the time, Britain was fortunate to have seen Atlee replaced by Churchill and, similarly, Americans fortunate--if we can apply that term to a world careening into World War II--to have seen Hoover (who was, as a business administrator, extremely accomplished and astute) replaced by Franklin Roosevelt.

For another quite interesting angle on the pitfalls of people who, without a doubt, believe what they're saying, see this important reading:



From "The Comversation" : www.theconverstation.com
()


The downside of doing good with a market mindset |
by David Campbell*
| January 10, 2019 11.50am GMT

__________________________________


... ...

"(Anand) Giridharadas contends that the wealthy philanthropists and other prominent social change leaders co-exist in a parallel universe he calls “MarketWorld,” where the best solutions to society’s problems require the same knowhow used in corporate boardrooms. That is because MarketWorld, as he sees it, ignores the underlying causes for problems like poverty and hunger.

"Its virtual inhabitants do this, he argues, because inequality causes many of these issues. And taking on inequality directly threatens the status and power of elite donors.

Paradox of privilege

'Winners Take All' is one of several recently published books raising difficult questions about how the world’s biggest donors approach their giving. As someone who studies, teaches and believes in philanthropy, I believe these writers have started an important debate that could potentially lead future donors to make make a bigger difference with their giving.

"Giridharadas to a degree echoes Ford Foundation President Darren Walker, who has made a stir by denouncing a 'paradox of privilege' that “shields (wealthy people) from fully experiencing or acknowledging inequality, even while giving us more power to do something about it.'

"Like Walker, Giridharadas finds it hard to shake the words of Martin Luther King Jr., who spoke of 'the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary.' "

... ...




* Associate Professor of Public Administration, Binghamton University, State University of New York

Other Binghamton University contributing-authors of articles at The Conversation




22johnthefireman
Edited: Jan 12, 7:08am Top

>21 proximity1: Still, at the time, Britain was fortunate to have seen Atlee replaced by Churchill... if we can apply that term to a world careening into World War II

I think you meant Churchill replaced Chamberlain, not Attlee (in 1940, in a world in which World War II had already begun).

To complicate matters, Attlee then replaced Churchill (in 1945), and Churchill then replaced Attlee (in 1951, long after the world had careened out of World War II).

23proximity1
Edited: Jan 13, 7:05am Top

>1 Carnophile:

At its essence, an astute recognition underpins this thread's idea--

in its spirit, I recommend the following reading and YouTube listening; these things, which in one way or another turn around what Anand Giridharadas refers to as the "Aspen consensus".

Read, listen and consider:

First and foremost, listen to this address presented at the Aspen Institute:

Anand Giridharadas presents "The Thriving World, the Wilting World, and You"


“…creating a generous side endeavor rather than fighting to reform, bite by bite, the hands that feed us. … Is your regular life, not your ‘side project,’ on the right side of justice?”


(from "World Affairs" Conversations that matter) Anand Giridharadas: Are Elites Really Making the World a Better Place?

WINNERS TAKE ALL: The Elite Charade of Changing the World

The New Yorker : Gospels of Giving for the New Gilded Age || Are today’s donor classes solving problems—or creating new ones? |
By Elizabeth Kolbert | American Chronicles | August 27, 2018 Issue

24krolik
Jan 12, 11:27am Top

>21 proximity1:
Err, I think that >20 TrippB: was tongue-in-cheek. But I can't speak for Mr. Tripp.

She's become the face of the party especially among conservatives. Seriously, my Republican friends on Facebook can't stop talking about her. Mostly in fear and anger. Lots of venting going on.

25Carnophile
Jan 12, 11:03pm Top

>18 amysisson: Do you have specific evidence of Ocasio-Cortez lying?

Certainly. See #10.

What is your response to the fact that Trump lied about what the ex-Presidents didn't say?

I don't know about that alleged lie. In any case, this thread is about lefties' pets eating them. To quote krolik, "No need to change the subject."

26Carnophile
Edited: Jan 12, 11:08pm Top

>19 johnthefireman: Maybe you didn't read the next few paragraphs?

I did. You didn’t, apparently. You certainly didn’t read down to the “Reverse position,” per Wikipedia:
After a consistent tendency towards tails, a gambler may also decide that tails has become a more likely outcome. This is a rational and Bayesian conclusion, bearing in mind the possibility that the coin may not be fair; it is not a fallacy.
Which is the kind of argument I was making.

Stop pretending that you don’t understand the notion of basing beliefs on evidence.

If I tried, if I actually tried, I don’t think I could successfully bait lefties into *literally* arguing that evidence is irrelevant.

All my best baiting of lefties occurs unintentionally.

27Carnophile
Jan 12, 11:11pm Top

Pretending that you don’t understand the notion of basing beliefs on evidence is the sort of thing that made me call you the most intellectually dishonest person I know.

Even for a leftist, the level of this kind of behavior from you is remarkable.

28Carnophile
Jan 12, 11:15pm Top

>24 krolik: She's become the face of the party especially among conservatives. Seriously, my Republican friends on Facebook can't stop talking about her.

Please. It was the left that started pimping her, even before the primary she won to become the Dem candidate. See, e.g., the New York Times's coverage last summer.

The fact that the left couldn't resist making this FUCKING IDIOT the face of their party is just another one of the enjoyable auto-foot-shootings of the left.

29johnthefireman
Edited: Jan 13, 12:35am Top

>25 Carnophile:, >26 Carnophile:, >27 Carnophile:

Ah yes, evidence. You have evidence that a particular individual is lying? Wasn't that the question in >9 amysisson:?

30krolik
Jan 13, 3:00am Top

>28 Carnophile:
The people I was referring to do not read or care about the New York Times. But your remark about pimping is of a piece with their attitude toward this person.

31RickHarsch
Jan 13, 5:49am Top

>29 johnthefireman: He answered >9 amysisson: with >10 Carnophile:, which of course meant that, no, he has no evidence of her lying.

32proximity1
Edited: Jan 16, 5:17am Top

>24 krolik:

Of course. And I missed that because I'm not acquainted enough with the opinions of TrippB to have caught the point you saw.

I haven't bothered--till now--to even pay attention to her, what she says and thinks and the facts of her background.

Apparently, she has about as much in "roots" in the Bronx as the Clintons did when Bill parachuted into the borough with Hillary so that she could run for office "from New York."

Some of her policy positions are fine. But they aren't new. They've been plain common sense for decades or even many generations. If the political order was going to allow such things, they'd have happened a long time ago. So why haven't they happened? The answer to that question is what Giriharadas—and others like him—is talking about. In a way, this extremely fortunate young woman, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, with her great expectations and ambitions is, really, exactly what Anand Giriharadas is talking about when he explains what the "Aspen consensus" elite love and why they love it.

That topic deserves fuller, dedicated treatment in threads devoted to these issues. To quote Giriharadas, (from
(from "World Affairs" Conversations that matter) Anand Giridharadas: Are Elites Really Making the World a Better Place? )


... "My argument, in a nutshell, is that fake "change"* is what you get when you put the people with most to lose from real change in charge of change." ...

... “I want to say something very positive— about a great, uh— about a man who has forced a great re-thinking in America and that is Donald J. Trump.

"I am, Iam serious about this—because, you know, there’s a lot of research about people’s assumptions—we are all stuck in our assumptions, we all think what we think, we know what we know. It takes an earthquake, a Tsunami, a hurricane, illness, divorce, loss—often—to make people really re-think something fundamental in their lives—change their direction. We all know or have experienced this ourselves.

"Well Donald Trump is the earthquake, Tsunami, illness in the life of our nation. And I find myself in conversation with a lot of people who say, ‘You know what? I have a bunch of strong beliefs: trade is good, business is how you solve problems, blah, blah, blah, blah—but, if Donald Trump is president, probably, a lot of things we all think (are true) are wrong. So I’m open.’ And there is—I am finding in my reporting—an openness to a new conversation and to new assumptions, uhm, that I don’t recognize in my time as a reporter. Uhm, and so I think that we gotta make use of that.” …




____________________________

* fake "change": i.e. addressing social ills through phony, superficial designs which ultimately leave the circumstances unchanged because, to actually effect real change would demand a redress of wide and deep injustice--and doing that would always seriously threaten the wealth, privileges and power of the ruling elite.

Giriharadas estimates (from his reading) that in the five-county San Francisco area, there are approximately 7400-and-something homeless people. In the same area there are 74 billionaires. There are, then, if accurate, around 100 homeless people there for each billionaire.

33Carnophile
Jan 14, 8:26pm Top

>29 johnthefireman:
>31 RickHarsch:

Wah, Carnophile won’t let us exclude relevant evidence!

>29 johnthefireman:

I don't know whether to be happy you've dropped the idiotic gambler thing or annoyed that you dropped it without any acknowledgement of your, uh, error.

34Carnophile
Jan 14, 8:30pm Top

>30 krolik: The people I was referring to do not read or care about the New York Times.

Note I said, "See, e.g., the New York Times..."

The left started pushing Ocasio-Cortez. Maybe there's some buyer's remorse about it now, but it's too late.

35RickHarsch
Jan 15, 3:04am Top

Jtf, I think it just has to be put down to one of those bizarre things the human mind can't decipher. You want proof? Okay, check out this 300+ post thread that ended last April. Somewhere in there is evidence Ocasio-Cortez is a liar...Plus you might consider plain fatigue, as he is at war with South Sudan, as explained on another thread.

36krolik
Jan 15, 6:43pm Top

>34 Carnophile:
Sure, the left is pushing her. I don't doubt that. And they're pushing other new faces, too, like Tlaib, Finkenauer and Omar. There's boosterism all over the place. Milking the moment for all they can.

My point in earlier posts, if you can get the chip off your shoulder that obstructs your head, is that in the examples I'm referring to of the "right" (which in other aspects I thought was more varied than you suggest--this is weird shit, me inviting you to be more nuanced about the right), has especially zeroed in on and anointed Ocasio-Cortez as their poster child, their fear figure, and object of two-minutes hate.

This is what intrigues me, and maybe you could school my ignorant liberal ass. Why her and not some of these others, who, ideologically, probably aren't significantly different. What accounts for your demonstrated attraction (repulsion) to Ocasio-Cortez?

37lriley
Edited: Jan 15, 10:04pm Top

FWIW Fox News and conservatives are absolutely obsessed with Ocasio-Cortez. They can't stop talking about her. They've completely misrepresented what she's talking about on taxes. They make out as if she wants to tax everyone at a 70% tax rate. That would only be true if everyone were earning $10,000,000.00 a year. I don't know about other people around here--I know these people exist but I've never met one--so the truth is her tax idea is aimed at a small sub-percentage of the 1%--the biggest earners of all in the United States---those who control well over 50% of the wealth of the nation. Why this outrages people on the right so much is beyond me but it does.

Interesting tidbit about Kentucky Senator Rand Paul I heard today. The libertarian who is dead set against government health care has gone north of the border to have a hernia procedure done at an Ontario hospital whose profits come out of Canada's National Health care system. Go fucking figure. We've heard all these horror stories down here about how horrible Canada's health care system is and how terrible their hospitals are because of it. Really Rand!

38Carnophile
Jan 16, 12:13am Top

>36 krolik: No. The left thrust her into the spotlight, not the right.

I've never heard of Finkenauer, and I never heard of Tlaib until she made the "impeach the motherfucker" comment.

39RickHarsch
Jan 16, 5:08am Top

>38 Carnophile: I guess it depends what the spotlight is. Ocasio-Cortez thrust herself into prominence and the media took note. The 'left' has had a wide range of responses--the more progressive left is excited, the Democrats in general are a little nervous. Anderson Cooper is concerned about a return to 50s through 70s progressive tax rates. The 'right' is nervous to spiteful.

This issue exposes the rift among Democrats: https://theintercept.com/2019/01/15/la-teachers-strike-charter-schools/

Here is another indication that the 'left' is not Nancy Pelose: https://theintercept.com/2019/01/10/house-committee-assignments-democrats/

40johnthefireman
Jan 16, 6:57am Top

>39 RickHarsch: the 'left' is not Nancy Pelose

Ah yes, that old myth of a monolithic organised "left".

41lriley
Jan 16, 9:18am Top

I don't think AOC minds being a focus of attention because it's a way for her to get some ideas out. I don't think she's really 'thrusting' herself out--more like media people and pundits are thrusting themselves at her . If people (especially conservatives) would chill out a bit--they might keep in perspective that she has just been a congresswoman for a few days and that there are 434 other House members. That said I do wish there were a lot more like minded congress people like her but the Democratic Socialist wing of the Democratic party is kind of small.

42RickHarsch
Jan 16, 10:18am Top

>41 lriley: It seems to me there is good reason for conservatives to...what's the opposite of chill out? warm in? They have good reason to be concerned, because Ocasio-Cortez has people THINKING about taxation again, and the vast majority of voters would realize that they would benefit a great deal from a re-institution of an Eisenhower era progressive tax. The truth of taxation has been fogged in for decades, but plenty of people are still around who benefitted in the 70s from progressive taxation and Fox may not have enough coal left ot operate its fog machine...

43lriley
Edited: Jan 16, 1:11pm Top

#42--not to get me wrong--I'm all for what Ocasio-Cortez has in mind. That said I don't think the Democratic party is at all interested in bringing any such tax legislation to a vote at least at this time and probably not for a long time. All in all the Democratic party is much too conservative of a party for that. In any case there are a bunch of things that the great majority of the public would be for--such as national health care---the politicians know what the polling says and hear what their constituents say but are past masters at ignoring, obfuscating and putting off to another day. In any case with this Republican POTUS and this Republican Senate that is not going anywhere for the coming two years.

Hopefully though a lot more people like AOC will run for Congress in 2020--that could make a difference.

But as you say history for a lot of people is foggy. Used to be a time when many Republicans believed in a progressive tax system too--like President Eisenhower. Nixon twice tried to give the country a National Health Care system.

44JGL53
Edited: Jan 16, 1:10pm Top

From Ocasio-Cortez to Pelosi it is all good. The far left, the near left, the center moderates, and the majority of U.S. voters who are basically sane will unite to crush the orange fat traitor in 2020 like the motherfucking bug that he is - assuming he is still around then.

During the Eisenhower administration the super rich were taxed at something like 70 or 80 per cent and no one raised much of a fuss. After all the exemptions allowed the super rich actually paid much less than that, as would be the case in the future if taxes were increased on them to the same degree.

Again, separating the republican and trumpian lies from actual reality is the issue to be addressed - continually.

trump is not a mere motherfucker - he is a stupid lying motherfucking huckster moron. That will be his everlasting legacy.

45JGL53
Jan 16, 1:26pm Top

1. A new Rasmussen poll (a super conservative poll) found that if Ocasio-Cortez were old enough to run and were selected as the Democratic nominee in 2020 she would get 40 per cent to trump's 43 with 17 per cent undecided.

Pretty good for an admitted socialist as determined by a conservatively biased poll.

2. Pelosi, in effect, has now informed the fat orange traitor that there will be no SOTU address until the government is opened. Pelosi calls the shots as to what happens in the House chambers. Bet the fat orange traitor wasn't aware. What a motherfucking dipshit moron he is.

46lriley
Jan 16, 1:36pm Top

#45--that was a interesting move on Pelosi's part. I agree. Turn the screws.

47RickHarsch
Edited: Jan 16, 7:12pm Top

Nevertheless, as a face of the party...she's a bit origami Meiji unrestored. (Pelosi, I mean, of course.)

48krolik
Jan 16, 6:24pm Top


Inevitably, I suppose, this conversation has a strong whiff of Onion.

49proximity1
Jan 17, 5:20am Top


"Trump Turns On Fox News And Tells Aides To Make Whatever They’re Saying A Law"

—The Onion, 'America's Finest News Source'

50JGL53
Jan 17, 1:37pm Top

"Fox News Now Just Airing Continuous Blood-Red Screen With Disembodied Voice Chanting ‘They’re Coming To Kill You’"

51prosfilaes
Jan 17, 10:36pm Top

I'm not a huge fan of Ocasio-Cortez; she's come up on Politifact too often with questionable statements, and they often seem to be careless misunderstandings. But she's young and new; maybe she can season up, and she doesn't seem ill-intentioned. I find this concept that she's a monster that's going to eat us is absurd.

Liberals sometimes do similar things; I hear a lot about Steve King from liberal sources. But that's a white supremacist versus someone proposing high taxes on the rich.

52RickHarsch
Jan 18, 8:24am Top

>51 prosfilaes: What a condescending little post. I've had a great deal more experience arguing with the poster of #51 than I have listening to or reading the words of Ocasio-Cortez, so I am not aware of her limitations, but up to now her grasp of what's important in politics has been impressive, while the posts of prosfilaes are of the quality of an Anderson Cooper interview question.

53margaretbartley
Jan 20, 1:52am Top

She was being deliberately provocative. Good thing she was banned. So what if some pervs invade girl's dressing rooms and women's bath rooms? Like, she can't take care of herself? Why is she so special?

54jjwilson61
Jan 20, 10:08am Top

>53 margaretbartley: What are you talking about? If you're responding to a particular post please include the post number in your message.

55RickHarsch
Jan 20, 11:46am Top

>54 jjwilson61: I think it's just fine. I think the thread was dropped in on by a novelist.

And the he turned back: those holes drilled in his back? It had to have been her eyes. She was a provacateur of pervs, a pervercateur, if you will, and if she says so you damn welll will. Ha ha ha, the laughter echoed in the chambers of...

56johnthefireman
Jan 20, 12:33pm Top

>55 RickHarsch:

Oh dear, Rick, have you been smoking those funny mushrooms again? Or maybe it was >53 margaretbartley: who was smoking that stuff?

57RickHarsch
Jan 20, 3:17pm Top

All that time in Africa and you still don't know that one does not SMOKE mushrooms?

58johnthefireman
Jan 20, 10:55pm Top

True enough. They're much better if injected...

59Carnophile
Jan 24, 11:56am Top

Michigan College cancels Vagina Monologues because it excludes transvestites.
Eastern Michigan University's Women's Resource Center will no longer host productions of "The Vagina Monologues," noting that the play's version of feminism excludes some women.

The WRC announced its decision...after the center evaluated responses from a survey. Survey respondents opposing the production consistently indicated they were concerned that the play centers on cisgender women, that the play's version of feminism excludes some women, including trans women, and that overall, "The Vagina Monologue" lacks diversity and inclusion.
I remember when feminists wanted to make sure that women’s voices were heard. Now the campus feminist center tells women, “Make sure men’s voices are heard, OR WE’LL SILENCE YOU.”

60margaretbartley
Jan 24, 3:07pm Top

>54 jjwilson61: thanks for the advice. How do I do that? I tried just typing the link in; I guess I'll see, after it's posted, if it has a link in it, or not.

61krolik
Jan 24, 3:54pm Top

>59 Carnophile:
Nice to see you exploring conceivable variations and nuances regarding feminists and the possibility of plural perspectives.

62Carnophile
Feb 3, 5:38pm Top

Democratic Virginia Governor circling the drain.
Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam (D) on Friday acknowledged appearing in a “clearly racist and offensive” photograph in his 1984 medical school yearbook that shows a man in blackface and another in a Ku Klux Klan robe.
...
Northam, 59, did not say whether he was the man dressed in blackface or the one in a Klan robe and hood.

Calls for his resignation, which began as a trickle, turned into a torrent as the night progressed. Late Friday, even his most trusted allies called for him to step down...
For once, leftists are truthfully accusing someone of racist behavior!

What I find interesting and encouraging about this is that Democrats are avidly after the head of a fellow Democrat. That’s relatively new. Dems used to be able to count on shameless hypocrisy by fellow Dems to protect them. (E.g., Robert Byrd.) No more. The outrage mob has slipped the leash.

63mamzel
Feb 4, 3:42pm Top

>62 Carnophile: Al Franken?

64timspalding
Feb 4, 4:09pm Top

>59 Carnophile:

The meteoric rise to universal acclaim and—at Michigan and elsewhere—sudden sidelining of the Vagina Monologues is indeed a parable for our time.

65Carnophile
Edited: Feb 4, 10:26pm Top

>63 mamzel: Al Franken?

Definitely, Franken and lots of others since the MeToo thing got underway. In fact that's one of the things I had in mind when I said "relatively new" (as opposed to totally new). One of the reasons Northam is of particular interest is simply that he's a state Governor, so is especially prominent.

>64 timspalding: Quite. It's like something out a Tom Wolfe essay.

66proximity1
Feb 5, 6:22am Top


>65 Carnophile:

Today's hip, trendy Liberal-lefties don't read Tom Wolfe. He's worse than so-yesterday. He's a dead, white male. Ewww!

67Carnophile
Feb 5, 10:17pm Top

>66 proximity1: Plus, they don't have the sense of humor needed to look at themselves through that kind of lens.

68Carnophile
Feb 5, 10:19pm Top

Now Virginia’s LIEUTENANT Governor is facing sexual assault allegations.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/washpost-pushes-back-against-justin-fairfax-sta...

69proximity1
Feb 6, 5:52am Top


>67 Carnophile:

True. Their sense of humor was sacrificed at the altar of political-correctness. Worse, this sacrifice is now raised to ritual status. The youth must be properly brought up in their cult's faithless faith.

70JGL53
Edited: Feb 6, 2:48pm Top

A small per cent of those on the left of the political spectrum are politically-correct micro-aggression sensitive types. They get a lot of coverage and this gives the impression that lefties have no sense of humor.

That is incorrect.

Most lefties are like, e.g., Bill Maher, or myself - as a non-celebrity example. I would say super-sensitive snowflake types make up less than 10 per cent of all left of center folks. I invite righties to prove otherwise.

As to lack of humor the right is overwhelmingly clueless assholes who cannot even get a joke when told one. Most righties either have sticks up their asses or are just too ignorant and/or stupid to get a joke. The exception is the schadenfreude type of humor, or cruelty jokes - i.e., sick humor only a sick person would find that particularly humorous. Righties love that kind of shit.

Righties find the black face problem of the Virginian Democratic governor quite amusing - pure schadenfreude - .i.e., if a Democrat is disgraced then that MUST be humorous. Since right-wingers are racist bastards, for the most part, they have no particular outrage at black face, like lefties do. So if a republican official has a black face problem show up they will not care and will go balls-to-the-wall to defend him. We all know this. Why not fucking admit it?

Hell, righties don't give a shit even when a republican candidate for high office is a child molester. I don't think we can say the same about democrats.

No matter how lacking in common human decency any particular democrat is democrats as a whole will never equal republicans in just sheer unadulterated amoral scumbaggery and unflinching absolutist partisanship (trump being the best example of what I speak).

71JGL53
Feb 6, 2:45pm Top

Well Jesus Joseph Mary! The latest headline is about the Virginia AG who has now admitted to a black face problem also.

I would guess this eventuation has thrown both Carnophile and proximity1 into extreme masturbation mode.

I would advise their loved ones and pets to take cover.

72mamzel
Feb 6, 2:46pm Top

>68 Carnophile: Funny the timing on that, huh? Didn't come up when he originally ran for governor.

73timspalding
Feb 6, 3:11pm Top

>72 mamzel:

This is because, in between now and the last election, someone went back in time and changed his yearbook.

74lriley
Feb 6, 5:36pm Top

#69--speaking of humorlessness is this remark. But anyway I'm trying to think of a single time you've said anything remotely humorous...to me it's never been your shtick.

And however funny Wolfe is or isn't probably doesn't have all that much to do with whatever his particular political takes are so much as that's the way he writes. Some people have more the talent for that than others.

75Carnophile
Feb 6, 8:39pm Top

>70 JGL53: Righties find the black face problem of the Virginian Democratic governor quite amusing - pure schadenfreude

Damn right.

>72 mamzel: Yeah, a lot of people have been wondering why all this stuff didn't emerge earlier. I don't have any theories or anything; it's just odd that so much was missed. Are Republicans really that inept at oppo research?

76Carnophile
Feb 6, 8:43pm Top

Sigh. Funny, but sad.

Lesbian Activist Faces Leftist Fury After ‘Misgendering’ a Male Rapist
Julia Beck, a lesbian activist and former member of the LGBTQ Commission for the mayor of Baltimore, got in a “little trouble” after she called a male rapist “he” when "he" actually considered himself a transgendered woman.
...
“I got kicked off of the Baltimore mayor’s LGBTQ Commission as the only lesbian, simply for stating biological facts,” she said. “After a months long witch hunt I was found guilty of ‘violence.’ My crime? Using male pronouns to talk about a convicted male rapist who identifies as transgender and prefers female pronouns.”

77proximity1
Feb 7, 7:44am Top


>74 lriley:

"I'm trying to think of a single time you've said anything remotely humorous...to me it's never been your shtick."

(Unlike you, who are just hilarious all the time.)

Well, there's this candidate, for example of evidence of a sense of humor.

And, you don't have to take my word for that.

78lriley
Feb 7, 9:45am Top

#77--FWIW I haven't read through the entirety of every thread in Pro and Con.....and anyone can have their moments and I didn't mean to infer that you can't appreciate humor but generally the tones I get from you are pretty damned angry. But you are hardly the only one who is pissed off or very angry at the current state of politics either as they are here or as they are somewhere else and it's on all sides of the political spectrum of beliefs.

....and sometimes it's healthy for a person (or any person) to take a break from things that are keeping them angry all the time or too much of their time.

But as far as myself--I never said I was a comedian either. In fact I'll often tell people that I have no sense of humor--I might say that with a smile though.

79proximity1
Feb 7, 11:01am Top


... "the tones I get from you are pretty damned angry" ...

Seeing our time's wanton injustice and obscene corruption and complacent folly?

Not "pretty", v e r y damned angry. And how! To be less than very angry is to be complicit. Tell victims that you look placidly at their suffering? while others don't even bother to turn their attention from their amusements?

There is far too little anger where so much is warranted.

Meanwhile, taboo to mention, envy and jealousy vie with conformity for rule over our sentiments.
Notwithstanding all of that, I can still appreciate a good joke, a worthy laugh.

80lriley
Edited: Feb 7, 12:20pm Top

#79--I wasn't saying you shouldn't be angry. Politicians these days don't very often work for the public good--more for their own ambitions or bank accounts but defining exactly what the public good is--that's kind of an open book when there are millions of people with all kinds of views that intersect or don't with millions of others. So they have leeway but what they do with that leeway is important and that's why corruption and lack of integrity is important too--that's why when someone like Sanders comes along who has been hammering away consistently at the same message for a good 40 some years anyway and a lot of that in a political limbo or obscurity meant a lot to the people who had been watching him for so long---but his is not the only view to take on everything and he's not perfect either. It's also why some younger politicians who might be more naive but they're cleaner because they haven't been corrupted and there's better chance that they actually believe what they're talking about.

But another thing if you're going to get into politics you need to be interested enough to work at it and work at it continually and get into the actual details of things and it should be a never ending process of learning and trying to understand. Even corrupt politicians will do that--take Cheney for example--he knew the govt. like the back of his hand. He knew how everything worked. I hated Clinton but he was smart as fuck. That's just giving devils their due.

81krolik
Feb 7, 4:21pm Top

>62 Carnophile:
"What I find interesting and encouraging about this is that Democrats are avidly after the head of a fellow Democrat. That’s relatively new. Dems used to be able to count on shameless hypocrisy by fellow Dems to protect them. (E.g., Robert Byrd.) No more. The outrage mob has slipped the leash.

I partly agree with you on this one, Carno. Guys like Byrd used to be a part of the Democratic establishment fabric. Now they're no longer possible. Not, I think, because "the outrage mob has slipped the leash." But because times have changed. People have wised up. (A bit.) Byrd's ilk are too embarrassing. (Cue Ralph Northam.) I don't see this as hysterical. We're living in another generation, with different expectations and standards. Good riddance.

I don't think progress is ineluctable. Can't get sentimental about that idea. But change happens, and sometimes it's a good change.

The racist heritage of the Democratic party is a matter of historical record. Sure. And if we go back a bit in history, yes, the Republicans did comparatively better on questions of race. But that was then. And the bar was so very low.

People like William F. Buckley, coming from a markedly different culture and circumstances than a person like Byrd, could mention in his memoirs that he cried as a child because his elder siblings didn't take him along to a cross burning.

Such were good old boys in...Connecticut.

Racism permeates American history and culture and yes, its political parties. All its parties. Excuse me if I'm not shocked.

Re Northam, this bit isn't too bad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5JKhRRhbRY


82proximity1
Edited: Feb 12, 6:30am Top


First posted and revised 10 February, 2019
Additions on 11 & 12 February, 2019,

___________________________________

Now thus, our downward-spiraled course is set.



"Domestic fury and fierce civil strife ... encumber" us.

"Brutus wants to save the Republic, but the Republic does not want to be saved. When the crowd is still listening to him, you will recall, a shout rises from its midst: 'Let him (i.e. Brutus) be Cæsar.' From now on, whoever prevails against Cæsar must be another Cæsar."

..."The desire to avenge this leader (i.e. the murdered Julius Caesar) is a mimesis of the conspiracy (to murder Caesar). Cinna (who is only "an unfortunate bystander"; another by the same name is a member of the conspiratorial faction) is the first totally uninvolved and perfectly innocent victim. A poet, he has nothing to do with the conspirator named Cinna and politely says so to the crowd. His only connection with Cæsar's murder is a fortuitous coincidence of names. He even happens to be a friend of Cæsar and mentions the fact, but to no avail; one anonymous shout comes from the mob: 'Tear him to pieces!'

"A mob never lacks reasons for tearing its victims to pieces. The more numerous they seem, the more insignificant they really are. Learning that Cinna is a bachelor, the married men in the mob feel insulted. Others resent the poet in this harmless individual, and one more shout is heard: 'Tear him for his bad verse!' Obediently, mimetically, the mob tears the wrong Cinna to pieces." ...

"When it is first organized, the conspiracy against Caesar was still an unusual enterprise that required a rather lengthy genesis. Once Caesar is murdered, conspiracies sprout everywhere, and their violence is so sudden and haphazard that the word itself, 'consiracy,' no longer seems right for the spontaneity of the disorder. Violent imitation is responsible for this as for everything else that it operates as a single continuous process—and not as a series of discontinuous synchronic patterns such as the structuralists want to discover everywhere, in a misguided denial of history. Strictly speaking, separate configurations have no independent existence, but they are a convenient way of identifying and characterizing the most salient moments in the perpetual metamorphosis that mimesis, all by itself, is bringing about. (Emphasis added)

"The general trend is clear: it takes less and less time for more and more people to polarize against more and more victims for flimsier and flimsier reasons. A little earlier, Ligarius's indifference to the identity of his victim was still an exceptional phenomenon; after (Julius) Cæsar's murder, this indifference becomes commonplace and the last criteria disappear in the selection of victims. Mimesis learns fast and, after only a single try, it will do routinely and automatically what seemed almost unthinkable a moment before.

"The contagion is such that the entire community is finally divided into to vast 'conspiracies' that can only do one thing: go to war with each other. They have the same structure as individual doubles; one is led by Brutus and Cassius and the other by Octavius Cæsar and Mark Antony. Shakespeare (e.n: Edward Oxford, i.e.) sees this civil conflict not as ordinary civil war but as the total unleashing of the mob"...

... ...

" 'Domestic fury and fierce civil strife ' culminate in the battle of Philippi, which Shakespeare does not treat as a banal military encounter but as the climactic epiphany of the mimetic crisis, the final explosion of the mob that gathered after the murder of Cæsar, when the conspiracy began to metastasize. Peter S. Anderson correctly observes that, in this battle, no one is really where he should be; everything is dislocated; death is the sole common denominator.(1) Instead of a few victims killed by still relatively small mobs, thousands of people are killed by thousands of others who are really their brothers and do not have the faintest idea why they or their victims should die." ...

... "Because of the crisis, the quality of all desires is deteriorating." ...

"The dramatic process I am describing contradicts all political interpretations of Julius Cæsar. Political questions are all of the same differential type: which party does Shakespeare favor in the civil war, the republicans or the monarchists? Which leader does he like best, Cæsar or Brutus? Which social class does he esteem and which despise, the aristocrats or the commoners? ... Shakespeare, I believe, feels human sympathy for all his characters and antipathy for the mimetic process that turns them all into equivalent doubles.

...

"One of the errors generated by the twentieth-century love affair with politics is the widespread belief that the mob-like propensities of the crowd in Julius Cæsar must reflect contempt for the common man, a distressingly 'conservative' bias on the part of Shakespeare himself.

...

"Shakespeare does not try to be 'impartial.' We must not see the practical equivalence of all parties to the conflict as a hard-won victory of 'detachment' over 'prejudice,' as the heroic triumph of 'objectivity' over 'subjectivity,' or as some other feat of epistemological asceticism that historians of all stripes should either emulate or denounce as a mystification. Mimetic reciprocity is the structure of human relations for Shakespeare, and his dramatization of it is no laborious obligation but his intellectual and æsthetic delight. ... Like 'true love' in the comedies, politics in Julius Cæsar is always a direct or indirect reflection of what is taking place on some mimetic chessboard. Cæsar's politics of imperial reconciliation is a move on this chessboard, and so is Brutus's defense of republicanism.

"I do not want to imply that political questioning is always out of place in Shakespeare. Until the mimetic logic that erases differences is established, it is premature; after this logic is in place, to inquire about the political significance of the logic is not only legitimate but imperative.

"The perpetual 'plague on both your houses' in Shakespeare must not be void of political significance. When I read Julius Cæsar I picture (as author) a man more nauseated with the aristocratic politics of his time than critics usually believe."

___________________

(1) Peter S. Anderson, "Shakespeare's Cæsar The Language of Sacrifice,", Comparative Drama (journal) 3 (1969) 5-6.



—René Girard, from his study, A Theatre of Envy: William Shakespeare (Oxford Univ. Press, 1991/ Gracewing & Inigo Enterprises, U.K., 2000) (at pp. 194-199), exposing the dramatic operations in (Edward, Earl of Oxford's work (under his pen-name Wm. Shakespeare)) The Tragedie of Julius Cæsar

___________________________



In Lyon, Sunday, 10 February, Rival (right-wing & left-wing) factions of the 'Gilets Jaunes' ('Yellow vests') anti-Macron protesters squared off in skirmishes on the street.

(The Daily Mail, London; from Footage shared on Twitter)

83Carnophile
Mar 2, 4:59pm Top

Judge rules that an all-male military draft is unconstitutional:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/02/24/judge-rules-men-only-military-dra...

84Carnophile
Edited: Mar 17, 11:05pm Top

On the Ilhan Omar thing:
Just days ago, Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN) faced rebuke, albeit indirectly, from her own party in a resolution condemning anti-Semitism that had been developed as a response to her repeated anti-Semitic statements... (But now) Omar’s victory is total. The anti-Semitism resolution was turned into a condemnation of “Islamophobia” and “white supremacism,” she remains on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, and the entire Democratic leadership has made it clear that they don’t dare cross her.

...the sclerotic Democratic Party establishment lacks the will to tangle with Omar, who is an exponent of a skilled and ruthless propaganda machine that has long been in the Democrats’ corner, but has never -- until now -- turned its brute force against the Democrats themselves.

What Pelosi and her cohorts learned this week is that if they cross Ilhan Omar, they will be accused of “racism” and “Islamophobia” just as swiftly and reflexively as those smear labels are applied to Republicans... The Democrats’ long record of support for mass Muslim migration into the U.S....
...is fucking hilarious in this context, and gives me a schadenboner the size of Staten Island.

85proximity1
Edited: Mar 18, 8:56am Top


>84 Carnophile:

LOL!

The chickens come home to roost. And, goddamn, are they angry!

;^)

And they look more and more like vultures.



___________________________

Now this is fucking hilarious.

It doesn't stop with Ihan Omar, of course.

The insanity of Dems' love-affair with political-correctness is the "gift that keeps on giving" to Dems' political opponents.

Here, Beto O'Rourke -- I challenge you to find a less 'Texan-like' name than that--has to follow his past (and some of his near-present) around with a mop-and-pail:

"Ham-handed"!!??




"During a taping of the "Political Party Live" podcast in Cedar Rapids, he addressed criticism of his campaign-trail joke that his wife, Amy, has raised their three kids 'sometimes with my help.' O'Rourke made the comment at multiple campaign stops during his first swing through Iowa, including earlier Friday, eliciting laughs each time, but he also drew criticism as being insensitive to the challenges faced by single parents raising children.

"O'Rourke said the criticism of his 'ham-handed' attempt to highlight his wife's work in their marriage was "right on.

" 'Not only will I not say that again, but I will be much more thoughtful in the ways that I talk about my marriage,' he said.

"O'Rourke, 46, also said he was 'mortified' when he reread the violent fiction he wrote as a teen, which received fresh attention Friday after a Reuters report outlined his involvement in a hacker group as a teen. O'Rourke wrote a handful of posts on the group's message board under the name 'Psychedelic Warlord,' including a fictional piece he penned when he was 15 about children getting run over by a car."



"Ham-handed"!!??

O'Rourke has just grossly slighted the entire porcine spectrum of the animal kingdom! These highly-intelligent animals do not deserve such disrespect! What was he thinking!? We raise them in factory-farm conditions and then slaughter then---- for sandwich meat! and now O'Rourke shows his utter disregard for these wonderful animals likening his own gaffes and fuck-ups to "Ham"-handedness!!

https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/orourke-apologizes-for-teen-writings-rhe...
______________________________________________

We're not done as long as there's a Democratic-party candidate for elective office who hasn't been shamed into complete silence over verbal gaffes and past adolescent behavior.

You know what you've said & done! Confess now! Seek forgiveness!

otherwise,

"Vultures."

86lriley
Edited: Mar 18, 8:32am Top

#84--we've been over this at least in one other thread. The right wing is trying to conflate any critique of the govt. of Israel currently presided over by an extreme right politician as anti-semetic. If you want to go down that road it's up to you but Palestinians are just as Semetic as the Jewish people of Israel and yet they are treated not even like citizens. Israel currently is an apartheid like regime. Omar's objections to taking an oath of allegiance to the Israeli govt. as some United States state legislatures would have (require) their own citizens do just to apply for a govt. contract or to take or hold a govt. job are correct and not weak as liquid shit like a good many of her democratic compatriots in the House and Senate. Most of them (along with almost all of their republican cohorts) are bought off by a foreign govt. That she has encouraged Muslims not to take part in the Haj to protest the Saudi's and their vicious regime seems to fly right past you and a lot of other assholes but that's par for the course. Maybe you should make a point of swearing allegiance to Israel too.

87Carnophile
Mar 18, 11:10pm Top

>85 proximity1: The chickens come home to roost.

Yup. And other metaphors come to mind, like They made the bed, now they have to lie in it, etc. What gets me is that this was all so predictable.

88Carnophile
Mar 18, 11:16pm Top

>86 lriley: (blah blah) seems to fly right past you and a lot of other assholes

Relax; you'll live longer.

we've been over this at least in one other thread.

What is "this"?

The right wing is trying to conflate any critique of the govt. of Israel currently presided over by an extreme right politician as anti-semetic. If you want to go down that road it's up to you... Maybe you should make a point of swearing allegiance to Israel too.

What on earth? You missed the entire point of 84. It has nothing to do with whether Omar's statements are defensible or not. Read 84 again. Start with the word in the upper left and finish with the word in the lower right.

90Carnophile
Edited: Mar 23, 5:13pm Top

Video: Muslims get in Chelsea Clinton's face and berate her for inciting the New Zealand mosque attacks:

Chelsea Clinton is berated by Muslim NYU students who blame her for New Zealand mosques attack because she 'incited an Islamophobic mob' against Rep Ilhan Omar.
“This right here is the result of a massacre stoked by people like you and the words that you put out into the world,” says Dweik, gesturing to the vigil for the 49 who were killed in Christchurch when a white nationalist shooter stormed two mosques.

“And I want you to know that and I want you to feel that deeply - 49 people died because of the rhetoric you put out there,” Dweik continues, jabbing her index finger toward Clinton as other students snap their fingers in apparent approval of her words.
You have to watch the video to get the tension and anger in the accuser's voice... the way she jabs her finger an inch or two from Clinton's chest... the fact that Clinton is outnumbered... the fact that Clinton is (visibly, swollenly) pregnant, increasing the menace of being outnumbered by angry people getting in her face... the fact that when Clinton meekly says, “I’m so sorry that you feel that way,” a man off screen responds with an aggressive, “What does 'I’m sorry that you feel that way' mean? What does that mean?”

All lefties who think they're still in control of the identity politics monster really should click through and watch the video.

91lriley
Edited: Mar 23, 6:23pm Top

#90--FWIW Chelsea had played into the anti-Muslim rhetoric hard pushed by the Trump regime after Ilhan Omar made her remarks on Israel. FWIW he's said a lot of anti-Muslim shit before that too. Chelsea is a child of some privilege. She took sides but felt bad about the Christchurch Mosque shooting afterwards. Hopefully it's a learning moment for her and she begins to see that Israel isn't just for Jewish people and it's okay for people like Omar to question loyalty oaths. And FWIW the murderer of all the people at the Mosque was a huge fan of Mr. Trump. Go fucking figure that one. Donald runs his irresponsibly fat mouth all the time and then some nutjob inspired by his racism and/or bigotry goes off and murders a lot of people. Go figure that too.

92JGL53
Mar 23, 6:42pm Top

The only famous Clinton I ever really liked is George Clinton.

The rest of them seem to be dicks.

93rolandperkins
Mar 23, 7:22pm Top

Well, there was Lou Clinton, briefly a regular in
the post-Ted Williams Boston Red Sox outfield
(-- a little disappointing; Ted he wasn't; in fact it
was the near-great Carl Yastrzemski who took
oveer Williams's left field place, but Lou was hardly
a "dick".

94johnthefireman
Edited: Mar 24, 1:56am Top

>91 lriley: Donald runs his irresponsibly fat mouth all the time and then some nutjob inspired by his racism and/or bigotry goes off and murders a lot of people

Reminds me of a quote from a Muslim woman in UK which I posted in another thread:

People need to understand that what they say has an impact on what happens on the streets (original link)

95krolik
Edited: Mar 24, 4:06am Top

>92 JGL53:, >93 rolandperkins:

I'd forgotten about Lou. Lots of people like the actor Clinton Eastwood, though he usually goes by a shorter version of his name. I can take him or leave him.

96lriley
Edited: Mar 24, 7:43am Top

#94--he's continually aiming his rhetoric at white greivance and then some think it's unfair to call him a racist. The Klanners and white supremacists though think he's great--that he's their guy. They've never been so happy. He's doing the same along religious lines--Christians and Jews are great--Muslims are not....and to top it off he doesn't have a religious bone in his body. It's just dog whistling all the time.

And if you're Muslim, Hispanic, black or LGBT and voting for him you're out of your mind. He's constantly inciting hatred against these groups.

97Carnophile
Mar 24, 1:02pm Top

>91 lriley: the murderer of all the people at the Mosque was a huge fan of Mr. Trump... Donald runs his irresponsibly fat mouth all the time and then some nutjob inspired by his racism and/or bigotry goes off and murders a lot of people.

The killer was a hardcore environmentalist:
He calls himself an “Eco-fascist,” ... He calls for a form of “Green Nationalism” which will save the planet by stopping “the continued destruction of the natural environment...”
ENVIRONMENTALISM KILLS.

98lriley
Mar 24, 1:23pm Top

#97--LOL! He was a MAGA guy and you know it.

99Carnophile
Mar 24, 7:39pm Top

#98--LOL! He was an environmentalist and you know it.

100lriley
Edited: Mar 24, 9:12pm Top

#99--I'm sure if you asked Trump he'd call himself an environmentalist too. He thinks he has solutions to all kinds of environmental events. People aren't sweeping out the millions of acres of California forest land for instance. And of course he's an imbecile but that doesn't matter as long as he's your imbecile.

But anyway Mr. Tarrant said of Trump in his manifesto--'that he is a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose'--which is to say he (Tarrant, that is) as a white supremacist sees common purpose between the thing he did (murder at least 50 innocent people, that is) and the things that Mr. Trump is doing. He also referenced in his manifesto immigrants as invaders saying 'to show the invaders that our lands will never be their lands' which is eerily similar to the language Trump uses quite often when referencing immigrants crossing the Mexican border. Some more for instances anyway. So to Tarrant Trump is an inspiration--that's pretty clear or why would he write such shit? And personally I think Tarrant sounds a bit like you too when you start going off on people you don't like.

101Carnophile
Edited: Mar 26, 9:36pm Top

>100 lriley: Tarrant said of Trump in his manifesto--'that he is a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose' etc.

And...
He calls himself an “Eco-fascist,” ... He calls for a form of “Green Nationalism” which will save the planet by stopping “the continued destruction of the natural environment...”

I'm sure if you asked Trump he'd call himself an environmentalist too.

Let's ask your fellow lefties what they think about that, right here in Pro and Con.

Here, for example: https://www.librarything.com/topic/253425

And here: https://www.librarything.com/topic/269635

And here: https://www.librarything.com/topic/292416

And here: https://www.librarything.com/topic/298994

Here's YOU, at #9: https://www.librarything.com/topic/253425#5989280

"The Dakota pipeline is an inevitable disaster waiting to happen. All pipelines eventually leak. It's unconscionable what they're doing. The Obama administration should have done much more to stop it. The Trump administration has greenlighted it. Business trumps health and safety."

102lriley
Mar 26, 10:21pm Top

Why bother with all those people? You don't like or believe them anyway. Why not go to the source?--the proverbial horse's mouth (or ass in this case). All you have to do is cut to the chase and google 'Trump calls himself an environmentalist' like I did. See for yourself whether he ever said or didn't say such a thing. See how recently even.

Here is the first example that popped up for me.

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/140069/trump-calls-environmentalist-pledging-cut...

103JGL53
Mar 27, 10:58am Top

trump is a bad man, let us count the ways.

The number is indefinitely large.

So, moving on.

105JGL53
Mar 27, 10:06pm Top

Yes, moving on - well, let Steven Colbert explain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_7wPf9geSM

(See especially minute 14 to the end.)

- trump is still in the middle of a fiery legal inferno that even a thousand Russian hookers couldn't piss out.

LOL.

106Carnophile
Mar 27, 11:47pm Top

>102 lriley: The question is whether anyone takes it seriously when he says that. (I don't, and I freakin voted for him.) But sure, if you want to say that Trump's known for being an environmentalist, go for it.

107Carnophile
Edited: Mar 31, 1:04pm Top

Attack-mob asshole destroyed by his own gang:

IMPORTANT: He’s black and gay. Still think racking up PC identity points will protect you, lefties?


He Was Part of a Twitter Mob That Attacked Young Adult Novelists. Then It Turned on Him. Now His Book Is Canceled.
Kosoko Jackson, a gay black author writing about a gay black protagonist, gets taken down by the YA Twitterati.

Sourcebooks announced that A Place for Wolves, the debut YA novel by Kosoko Jackson, will be withdrawn from publication, at the request of the author.

Until recently, Kosoko Jackson's website described him as “a vocal champion of diversity in YA (young adult) literature, the author of YA novels featuring African American queer protagonists, and a sensitivity reader for Big Five Publishers.”
Then the SJW rage mob went after him. Among other things, the accusations included the fact that he had a Muslim bad guy in the story. (Seriously, how could a politically correct SJW “sensitivity reader” possibly make that mistake? LOL.) They intimidated him into canceling the book.
Part of what makes this story so interesting is that Kosoko himself has been on the other side of these online attacks on authors.

He was outspoken during a particularly intense recent example, when a campaign based on misunderstanding and exaggeration led the author Amélie Zhao to take the unusual step of agreeing to cancel the publication of Blood Heir, her hotly anticipated debut novel...
And now the same hate mob has destroyed him!

Delicious, delicious poetic justice.

108Carnophile
Edited: Jun 15, 8:52am Top

LOL: SJWs eating their own, part whatever:

Chelsea Cain Deletes Twitter Account Following Accusations of Transphobia
Chelsea Cain has deleted her Twitter account after facing mounting backlash and accusations of transphobia due to a creative choice present in the latest issue of her comic book series Man-Eaters.

Cain’s self-described “feminist” series Man-Eaters... follows the exploits of a twelve-year old girl named Maude as she navigates a world wherein a mutation causes women’s menstrual cycles to change a woman into a ‘were-cat’ creature and the ensuing harsh, fear and paranoia motivated response from the government.

Cain has repeatedly faced waves of criticism and accusations of holding Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist (or TERF) beliefs due to the alleged trans-exclusionary nature of the series’ concept, as some believed associating the monstrous change in women with a biological menstrual cycle excluded persons who were not biologically female but identified as such.
WTF?

Anyway, at first she hit back at her accusers, with images that implied that they were anti-feminist bigots. Other people then leapt in, basically saying, “How DARE she call them bigots when they call her a bigot!” So she gave up and tried to apologize.

Heh.

Anyone who has been paying attention in recent years knows what happens when you try to appease SJWs.

Let’s see how it worked out when she got own on her knees and apologized:

109Carnophile
Edited: Jun 13, 4:45pm Top

Some of her self-abasing tweets:

Let me make this clear: I’m an idiot. I’m super sorry. I’m defensive because it MEANS so much. If you are trans and feel excluded by MAN-EATERS, that’s on me. Not you. You are glorious. And brave. And, gah. Thank you. I am listening. I am trying.

LOL. “If you psychotically take offense at a story for not featuring transvestite were-cats, it’s my fault! You’re glorious!”

I can be dumb sometimes. I get so defensive and self-righteous. It creates blind spots. And that’s not okay. And I’m sorry.

Would any of you be willing to be a trans sensitivity reader for our last few issues of MAN-EATERS? We can’t pay. But I will send you comics!


The article notes that this offer only “served to further stoke the flames of outrage” - of course it did; she was trying to appease an SJW attack mob - so she tried apologizing again:

I’m sorry. I’ve never worked with a sensitivity reader. I can’t seem to stop screwing up, can I? I was just trying to say that I was open to feedback. But you’re right. Of course. I can’t ask anyone to work for free.

I didn’t even know sensitivity readers were a thing in comics. I really have no business being here. I work on ME for free. We thought we were doing something good. I’m so sorry.

I appreciate yr patience as I educate myself.


“Thank you for the whippings, master! They’re helping me to see how horrible I am. I will show my appreciation by getting upon my belly and licking your feet.”

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The article continues,
Ultimately, the anger, backlash, and the rejection of her haphazard attempts at placating the outrage caused Cain to delete her Twitter account after publishing a final Tweet:

Nothing I say can make it better. I’ve learned that here. Intentions are kind of irrelevant. Actions are everything... I will work really hard to make up for my mistakes. Sorry, again. For all of it.
LOL, have fun being destroyed by the identity-politics crap that you took part in.

110johnthefireman
Jun 13, 4:43pm Top

SJW?

111Carnophile
Edited: Jun 13, 4:46pm Top

It's funny that you don't know what that means.

112alexanme
Jun 14, 12:10am Top

u think if u agree w a person on one issue (say, electoral politics) but disagree on another (say, transphobia) then u shouldn't ever criticize that person? what?

113johnthefireman
Jun 14, 1:34am Top

>111 Carnophile:

I'm happy to provide amusement for you. Any chance you could enlighten me on that abbreviation?

114proximity1
Jun 14, 5:23am Top


>109 Carnophile:

"LOL, have fun being destroyed by the identity-politics crap that you took part in."

Exactly! At last there's something in the press about fucking pseudo-liberals that, rather than making one cry in desperate disbelief, just makes one burst out in honest feel-good laughter.

(Quote) ... "Let me make this clear: I’m an idiot." ... (Chelsea Cain) (Endquote)

Got it. Thank you!

God these morons so deserve this! LOL! ;^)

116johnthefireman
Jun 14, 6:41am Top

>115 davidgn:

Thanks. Never heard that one before. It appears to be pejorative. I wonder which end of the political spectrum it originates from? I have my suspicions...

117krolik
Jun 14, 4:13pm Top

>116 johnthefireman:
It comes from the folks for whom social justice is ironically bracketed as "social justice" with fingers ironically clawing air quotes. It embraces a certain kind of postmodern skepticism for its own ends, rendering the concept inoperable.

118Carnophile
Jun 14, 8:43pm Top

>112 alexanme: u think if u agree w a person on one issue (say, electoral politics) but disagree on another (say, transphobia) then u shouldn't ever criticize that person? what?

You've misunderstood me. I am delighted with this development.

119Carnophile
Jun 14, 8:47pm Top

>114 proximity1: And one wonders if they will learn this is not a good approach to politics, and if so how long the learning will take.

120alexanme
Edited: Jun 14, 9:10pm Top

>119 Carnophile:
See, thats the thing. i think being willing to criticize those within a certain movement (whether feminism or a vague opposition to the GOP) is a GOOD thing, and is in fact a GOOD approach to politics. intra-group critique is vital for growth

121Carnophile
Jun 15, 8:47am Top

>120 alexanme:

You say you think hurling accusations of bigotry for no sane reason is a good thing ("critique," LOL).

Excellent! I applaud this judgment on your part, and encourage you to continue participating in this autophagy.

Also, thank you for providing a data point on my question above, about how long the learning will take.

122alexanme
Jun 15, 11:00am Top

>121 Carnophile:
"no good reason"
I see u dont care to read or even feign understanding of the events u discuss

123Carnophile
Jun 15, 1:56pm Top

>122 alexanme: Don’t worry about it. You think this is a good thing. I think this is a good thing. Carry on!

124JGL53
Edited: Jun 17, 2:36pm Top

The inane politically-correct high-jinks of the extreme left is nausea-producing, no doubt about it. No normal person thinks or acts that way.

However there are levels of evils. The gop and trump are so insanely evil that, in comparison, they make the radical left look like a bunch of innocent harmless three-year-olds playing with their dump trucks, pails and shovels in their tiny sandboxes.

The fucking bible says something about beams vs. motes in the eye. Some people, even if they are atheists, should look those verses up and see if there is not a lesson there to be learned. Just saying.

125Gerson001
Jun 17, 2:38pm Top

This user has been removed as spam.

126JGL53
Jun 19, 11:45am Top

Yo, Gerson - your popularity level here is somewhere between Ebola and d. trump. lol.

I officially offer you an invitation to piérdase.

127Carnophile
Jun 24, 3:54pm Top

'Erosion in acceptance' of LGBTQ people among young Americans, survey finds
“Young Americans ages 18-34 are increasingly uncomfortable around LGBTQ people in personal situations, like learning a family member, doctor, or child’s teacher is LGBTQ.”
Nationwide, the support for “equal rights for the LGBT community” remained stable at 80 percent, GLAAD’s survey found. But the biggest drop in support identified by the LGBTQ rights group was among the youngest Americans.

In 2016, 24 percent of respondents age 18-34 said they would feel uncomfortable with a LGBTQ family member; by 2018 that rose to 36 percent — about one in three. A similar rise was measured among the youngest group of respondents who say they would feel uncomfortable to learn their child was receiving an LGBTQ history lesson at school, from 27 percent to 39 percent.
I have a solution: Continue to import people from Muslim and macho Hispanic countries. (Ya might wanna look at the age breakdown of immigrants vs. non-immigrants.)
This marked shift is reflected in the shrinking of a group of respondents that GLAAD classifies as “allies” — those who say they are “very” or “somewhat” comfortable in all seven interpersonal situations tested. In 2016, 62 percent of young men ages 18-34 reported feeling comfortable in all seven LGBTQ situations; in 2018, that number dropped to 35 percent, although GLAAD did not say which or how many interpersonal situations saw a decline in support.

"The younger generation has traditionally been thought of as a beacon of progressive values," said Ellis said. "We have taken that idea for granted, and this year’s results show that the sharp and quick rise in divisive rhetoric in politics and culture is having a negative influence on younger Americans"
Don't worry about it. Just continue to import people from cultures where they execute gays by throwing them from rooftops. What could go wrong?

128Limelite
Edited: Jun 24, 5:19pm Top

Another example of a right wingnut blaming "lefties" for a (HORRORS!) political "boogeyman" their weird imagination created. Why are Trumpers so afraid of people having strong opinions that differ from their own? What snowflakes they are.

Yep, those border prisons for immigrants ARE concentration camps. AOC destroyed the Trump lie publicly. The Trumpers screamed, "Wah, wah, wah!!!" to cover the fact of their shame they tried to bully their way out of. Those camps are more than that. Since the deaths that have occurred in them due to harsh treatment, abuse, and willful neglect, everyone may accurately refer to them as death camps.

It took Nancy Pelosi to get in the Orange Shite-Gibbon's face for him to evacuate one such camp of its 300 minor prisoners after several children there were discovered by investigators to be deadly ill due to inhumane treatment and willful neglect by guards. This is an Administration who sent lawyers to testify before a panel of judges that soap and oral hygiene are not among life's necessities and therefore need not be provided to detainees, regardless of how young and vulnerable to disease they are. This is an Administration that is proud of forcing its minor political prisoners to sleep without bedding on cement floors.

Lovely compassionate family value Christians that Trumpers are. Make America Gestapo Alright -- MAGA!

Cute, aren't they?

129alexanme
Jun 24, 6:43pm Top

>127 Carnophile:

its the state and its propaganda that prosecute queer muslims; otherwise their "culture" is only as queerphobic as our own

Islamic Homosexualities: Culture, History, and Literature

Professing Selves: Transsexuality and Same-Sex Desire in Contemporary Iran

Living Out Islam: Voices of Gay, Lesbian, and Transgender Muslims

Homosexuality in Islam: Critical Reflection on Gay, Lesbian, and Transgender Muslims

Female Homosexuality in the Middle East: Histories and Representations

queer latinx immigrants r often more threatened by ICE and the police (predominantly natural-born white) than by their also latinx immigrant family/friends

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55b6e526e4b02f9283ae1969/t/56feaa3eb6aa60...

https://www.hrc.org/blog/the-precarious-position-of-transgender-immigrants-and-a...

https://srlp.org/files/disprop%20deportation.pdf

queer natural-born americans also tend to xp violence within their communities at a comparable rate to queer immigrants within their own communities

https://avp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2015_ncavp_lgbtqipvreport.pdf

(the above source is optimistic only bc obama's admin was still rolling out queer protections and regulations; most have been undone since trump's admin took over)

also i have to ask, do u actually care abt queer lives? bc the way ur framing it, it kinda sounds like u just wanted an opportunity to b xenophobic and Islamophobic and then say queer ppl r responsible for their own oppression

130Carnophile
Jun 26, 11:18pm Top

>128 Limelite: Man, that was even more incoherent than usual.

131Carnophile
Jun 26, 11:37pm Top

>129 alexanme: its the state and its propaganda that prosecute queer muslims

LOL, I love this notion that the populace of Islamic nations is just thirsting for Gay Lib, but their oppressive governments are keeping them down.

Thank you for that. That was one of the better chuckles I’ve had at Pro & Con in a while.

I looked at the one link you provided that was not a pdf file or an entire book. It exquisitely makes my point for me as early as the first and second paragraphs:
Many transgender people come to this country fleeing persecution in their home countries...

numbers are hard to estimate, as many people are reluctant to self-report as transgender due, in part, to fear of maltreatment by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials (yeah, right) and the persecution they faced at home. More than 70 countries criminalize LGBTQ people, while many more still serve as challenging places for transgender people to live freely and peacefully.
If we import more people from countries that “criminalize” and engage in “persecution” of transvestites, we’re going to get more of the attitudes that lead to criminalization and persecution. Which was my original point.

queer latinx immigrants r often more threatened by ICE and the police... than by their also latinx immigrant family/friends

This is an utterly irrelevant comparison. Also, illegal immigrants should be detained by ICE; that’s ICE’s job.

queer natural-born americans also tend to xp violence within their communities at a comparable rate to queer immigrants within their own communities

Your citation for this is an 84-page pdf file. Focus.

132Carnophile
Jun 26, 11:43pm Top

>129 alexanme: also i have to ask, do u actually care abt queer lives?

I'm not advocating importing people from cultures that persecute them.

And unlike some people, it wouldn't even occur to me to place more or less value on someone's life because of their sexual preference.

133johnthefireman
Edited: Jun 27, 12:56am Top

>131 Carnophile:Your citation for this is an 84-page pdf file. Focus.

Most complex issues are better understood by reading deeply than by soundbites and slogans.

>132 Carnophile: it wouldn't even occur to me to place more or less value on someone's life because of their sexual preference.

And yet many of your posts appear very hostile to certain people based on their sexual orientation.

134proximity1
Edited: Jun 27, 11:43am Top

>132 Carnophile:

RE: "it wouldn't even occur to me..."

Exactly. The ethos of these people who certainly do place greater value on any lives other than heterosexual "white" males simply screams out an insanely stupid and utterly false set of notions about a vague thing called "diversity"--catnip for viciously intolerant LGBTQ militants who, in actual fact, hate and will not tolerate mere equality of opportunity. They demand from all others a servile deference toward all of their privileged minority groups--and that's just for starters. When these people get their way, there'll be forced re-education camps for people who don't toe their lines.

They are anything but guardians of a fair and reliable practice of general civil liberties without regard for race, religion, creed, color, or national origin.

135johnthefireman
Edited: Jun 27, 7:22am Top

>134 proximity1:

You make a common rightwing mistake when you assume that wanting equal rights and opportunities for all implies placing greater value on one group. The key word is "all". However members of the formerly privileged group may feel as if they are being undervalued when they gradually realise that their own values, ideas, practices, culture, religion, etc which they have always assumed to be the default norm (because they had the power and privilege to make it the norm, whether consciously or unconsciously) is in fact not considered the default norm by society as a whole (including the formerly underprivileged groups), and they have to accept that they now live in a society where in many aspects of life there is no single default norm. That's what diversity and equality of opportunity imply.

136Carnophile
Edited: Jun 27, 4:37pm Top

Me: "Your citation for this is an 84-page pdf file. Focus."

>133 johnthefireman: Most complex issues are better understood by reading deeply than by soundbites and slogans.

You've never written an 84-page argument for a single assertion here in Pro & Con. I take it you're admitting that you only think in soundbites and slogans.

many of your posts appear very hostile to certain people based on their sexual orientation.

Stop attacking me. Every time you issue a false accusation like this you admit, implicitly, that you can't win based on the truth.

137Limelite
Jun 27, 9:16pm Top

>130 Carnophile:

Cowardly sort of comment. Flippant throw-away remarks can't refute the evidence. As usual.

In the absence of any refutation, guess I'll have to conclude that you approve of and admire the New Trump America no longer being symbolized by the Statue of Liberty. The Trumpists have supplanted Lady Liberty with a now iconic photo of a drowned father and two-year-old daughter face down in the Rio Grande, feet from the shore where the tired and poor were once welcomed. You remember that time back in 2016, before Trump, when we were truly great and the entire world thought so, too.

138johnthefireman
Edited: Jun 28, 6:32am Top

>133 johnthefireman:

Not accusing you of anything. Just querying an apparent (note my use of the word "appears") inconsistency in your position. You're welcome to enlighten me and explain how there is no apparent inconsistency, if that is the case.

139Carnophile
Jun 28, 5:09pm Top

>137 Limelite: can't refute the evidence

Stay coherent and on-topic, then *maybe* you'll get a longer response.

140Carnophile
Jun 28, 5:11pm Top

>138 johnthefireman: Not accusing you of anything.

Yes you did. You accused me of appearing "very hostile to certain people based on their sexual orientation."

And now you're lying about it.

note my use of the word "appears"

Weasel words.

141Limelite
Jun 28, 8:36pm Top

>139 Carnophile:

You are your own boogeyman. And an autophage.

142johnthefireman
Edited: Jun 29, 2:01am Top

>140 Carnophile:

You may call it weasel words, but note that I was querying your posts, not accusing you, and the use of the word "appears" puts the onus on me (that is how your posts appear to me) not on you. It aso strikes me as being within the spirit and the letter of the TOS in terms of challenging what people post but not attacking the person. You have the opportunity to enlighten me on the substance of my post and explain to me how in your view your posts do not appear, or are not intended to be, hostile to a certain group, if you so wish. I note that you have made no attempt to do so.

I would also suggest that accusing someone of lying because there is a difference of understanding is not very helpful.

143alexanme
Jun 29, 3:31am Top

>131 Carnophile:

i mean, im literally trying to point u towards historical archives of parts of the populace of islamic nations who DO thirst for gay lib, bc theyre gay! and ya, the state does not necessarily mirror the attitudes of the populace at large? is that so unbelievable to u? allowing refugees to seek asylum in the us will not lead to the introduction of the government policies of their home countries bc, in fact, the refugees have FLED the government policies of their home countries!

the reason i brought up the comparison bw the threat of ICE versus the threat of other latinx immigrants was to illustrate how queer latinx ppl, at least based on the statistics presented (abt intimate partner violence, attitudes towards police, rates of deportation), r MORE persecuted by white natural-born americans than by other immigrants from countries that do have governments that criminalize queerness. that is, the immigrants from countries that criminalize queerness (most latin american countries) do not seem to b more predisposed to abuse queer ppl more than natural-born americans; u implied that immigrants from such countries should b MORE predisposed to abuse queer ppl

also, even if immigrants do not cross at a legitimate port of entry, according to US law they can still be legally seeking asylum, and so r not actually illegal immigrants. but the executive branch has the leeway to completely ignore some laws, at least when the other branches have little motivation to challenge the executive branch

>132 Carnophile:

r u literally tryna say "all lives matter" wrt queer ppl. in >127 Carnophile: u sarcastically feign concern for the safety of LGBT ppl. its rather tasteless to reference the real suffering of a group of ppl merely to make a petty political jab. plz dont talk abt queer ppl again.

>136 Carnophile:

not only is it tasteless to exploit the suffering of an oppressed group for petty rhetoric, but to make the safety of queer ppl a sarcastic punchline ("What could go wrong?") devalues their lives and xp. and to devalue the life and xp of a group of ppl is pretty hateful, even queerphobic. then to immediately suggest/assume that queerphobia in the us would b closely linked to immigration based solely on the concept of age cohorts is, frankly, kinda xenophobic!

now i dont mean to call u a queerphobe or a xenophobe, i just think its the most probable explanation for how/why u write the things u do. im just trying to give u feedback on how u come across to others! im sure ur not rly a hateful bigot on the inside, im just tryna warn u that that's kinda how u come across here!

144Carnophile
Jul 1, 9:05pm Top

>141 Limelite: ...autophage...

Aww, you read #121 and learned a new word! That’s cute!

145Carnophile
Jul 1, 9:07pm Top

>142 johnthefireman: You have the opportunity to... explain to me how in your view your posts do not appear, or are not intended to be, hostile to a certain group

Like I’d fall for such a blatant attempt to reverse the burden of proof.

146Carnophile
Jul 1, 9:18pm Top

>143 alexanme: im literally trying to point u towards historical archives of parts of the populace of islamic nations who DO thirst for gay lib, bc theyre gay!

Sure. But gays are far from the majority of islamic nations.

the reason i brought up the comparison bw the threat of ICE...

This paragraph and the next are doubling down on your attempt to change the subject. ICE should be detaining illegals. In any case, this is simply a wholesale attempt to change the subject from the likely effects of an influx of people from gay-hostile cultures.

In fact, by even engaging with this, I’m falling for your attempt to change the subject.

Which you want to do, I suspect, because the plausibility of what I’m saying is so uncomfortable.

147Carnophile
Jul 1, 9:19pm Top

>143 alexanme:plz dont talk abt queer ppl again.

You disagree with my opinions on immigration. plz dont talk abt immigration again.

148Carnophile
Jul 1, 9:38pm Top

>143 alexanme: suggest/assume that queerphobia in the us would b closely linked to immigration

It’s not an assumption. Let’s see what they think.

Pew Research asked, “Should society accept homosexuality?”

In the Middle East, literally every country surveyed said “No” at much higher rates than the US. In the US, the “No” response was 33%. In the Middle East, the lowest No rate was 47% and the highest rate of No was 97%.

In Latin America, mixed, but more countries said No at higher rates than the US (4), than said No at lower rates (3).
(If you exclude two countries where it was inside the margin of error, 3 to 2.)

...is, frankly, kinda xenophobic!

Unlike you, I actually listen to what the people of those cultures are telling us. Your cavalier indifference to hearing their beliefs suggests serious xenophobia.

149johnthefireman
Jul 2, 2:48am Top

>145 Carnophile: attempt to reverse the burden of proof

Good grief, how grandiose! We're not in court, we're having a conversation. There's no burden of proof on anybody. I pointed out how some of your posts appear to me, you object, and I ask you to explain why you believe I have misconstrued your posts. Simple. You can respond by clarifying what you believe to be a misapprehension on my part, or not, as you choose.

150Limelite
Edited: Jul 3, 4:23pm Top

>144 Carnophile:

Pity you had to look it up before posting. Who knew you could read? From your inability to respond to facts, I assumed you were illiterate and just another member of the Trumpist insultirati.

151Carnophile
Edited: Jul 3, 5:11pm Top

>149 johnthefireman:

I think you're a mass murderer, based on your posts. It's on you to prove you're not. If you suggest otherwise, you're being "grandiose."

>150 Limelite: Who knew you could read? ... I assumed you were illiterate

Got that from reading the posts I wrote, did you? Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

152johnthefireman
Jul 4, 12:32am Top

>151 Carnophile:

No, it's not the same thing at all. But for the record, I'm not a mass murderer, although I have met quite a few, and I doubt whether there is anything I have written that could reasonably be construed as such.

Note that I haven't accused you of accusing me of anything. I have simply explained to you that you have gained a false understanding of me from your reading of some of my posts.

153proximity1
Jul 4, 5:16am Top



>151 Carnophile:

"mass-murderer" properly takes a hyphen.

Otherwise, "spot on." ;^)

154krolik
Jul 4, 3:20pm Top

>153 proximity1:
Naw. It's just a combination of intellectual laziness and emotional neediness.

155RickHarsch
Jul 4, 4:15pm Top

>153 proximity1: Checked on google and it appears there has been a mass-murder of hyphens.

156sometimeunderwater
Jul 4, 5:09pm Top

As a non-American, honest question to all posters in this thread: is this how conversations about politics usually go in the US, or is this one especially unfriendly?

157Limelite
Edited: Jul 4, 5:14pm Top

>153 proximity1: >155 RickHarsch:

After the Great Hyphen Slaughter scientists discovered the strange effect the tragedy had on certain conservatives of the Trumpist conviction. Their conclusion follows:
The stages of grief cloud their abilities to reason and reduce their abilities to counterargue (no hyphen needed) to mere ad hominem comebacks (still no hyphen needed). We conclude this phenomonon has resulted in a new syndrome to which we give the name "Grammar Nazi."
(Parenthetical remarks added.)

For love of a hyphen an argument was lost.

158proximity1
Edited: Jul 5, 5:46am Top

>156 sometimeunderwater:

"is this how conversations about politics usually go in the U.S....?"

No, the hypocrisy, question-dodging, disingenuousness, blatant lying, wild self-deceiving flights into convenient and self-serving fantasies, the refusal to cede an honestly and fairly-won point by one's opponents--all these and much more in the panoply of all that is worst in human nature that is so common here is helped along by the fact that here, unlike in direct exchanges of views in person, people typically don't ever come to meet and see those with whom they're arguing. Elsewhere, by contrast, in those relatively few places where people--strangers to each other-- will even engage in a political discussion, there is usually much more reserve, much more cheap and dishonest superficial "politeness," a great deal more hypocrisy and practically none of what, for some, is recognized as refreshing candor.

I much prefer to see people here present themselves as the assholes which they so often actually are. I'll take open, clear and undisguised bullshitters over others, those who are full of a hyper-refined politeness, devoid of truth, devoid of honesty, completely phony and worthless as a basis for a clear exchange of opinions--I'll prefer dealing with them over dealing with those of the phony polite set any day of the week.

Politics is the realm (everywhere) in which power asserts itself. It's the arena where those who have the means, seek to dominate and control, defeat and marginalize those who haven't the power to adequately defend themselves. Down the beautiful, tree-lined lanes of wealthy people's homes, it is deceptively quiet, peaceful. Behind those walls, inside the beautiful carpeted rooms with their lovely curtain-dressed sparkling windows are the very comfortable vicious people who regularly win in a fierce daily competition for first-place, for the best of everything, leaving their vanquished opposition with much less or sometimes nothing at all--in many cases.

159RickHarsch
Jul 5, 5:01pm Top

>156 sometimeunderwater: I'll answer with a brief anecdote. Back in the early 1980s I had a used book store. Those were horrible years for me, a lifelong leftist. I suppose in a way Reagan struck me as Trump strikes many today...improbably, let's say. And there were the wars and death squads in Central America...Anyway, a Reagan supporter came in every Saturday morning and we argued every Saturday morning...We're still friends today. I've not changed much, and though he has gone through some extreme changes he's back closer to where he was then.

What does it mean? I'm sure to some degree it has to do with the anonymity of this venue, although I have found most online discussions to be more polite than this one. And of course it depends what is on the line here and now. In Portland, being face to face these days isn't so good, as the left and right are fighting on the streets.

160sometimeunderwater
Jul 5, 7:08pm Top

Two really eloquent responses - thanks both.

My question was a tiny bit disingenuous, as I don't live under a rock. But I was honestly surprised to read such impoliteness on a small book-cataloging website. Thanks again for such interesting responses to my stupid question.

161johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 6, 6:47am Top

>159 RickHarsch: I have found most online discussions to be more polite than this one

This is the only site where I really engage in such conversations, so I don't have much to judge it against, but it does surprise me that it is so discourteous, particularly as when LT Talk first started, for the first couple of years it did seem much more civil (or is that just nostalgia and rose-tinted spectacles)? It continues to surprise me that educated people on a book-catalguing website cannot discuss and disagree, even robustly about deeply-felt issues, without the level of offensiveness which one sees here. Having said that, I'm still around, because there are issues where I feel I have something to say, and I really appreciate the posts by many of the posters. I have learned a lot, which for me is the point of engaging with people, even (especially?) people with whom I fundamentally disagree. It hasn't changed many of my views, but it has given me a deeper understanding of where others are coming from.

It is also just about the only space where I get to interact deeply with extreme right wing people, as most of my own friends and colleagues, whether left or right wing, are more moderate and towards the centre of the political spectrum. And, as Rick implies, when you're talking face to face with someone, it's a different dynamic. sometimeunderwater, if you're from UK you'll remember Billy Connolly, of course, and you may recall a joke he tells about the Rangers-Celtic match where one wee supporter finds himself in the wrong part of the stand, surrounded by hulking giants from the other team. Apart from the fact that they end up shitting in his shoes while he pisses in their Bovril, one line that struck me was how they gathered around him fascinated, because they had never been that close to one (an opposition supporter) before. I think I can say I had never been so close to one before, and I suppose we are metaphorically shitting in each others' shoes and pissing in each others' Bovril here, especially in this Pro and Con group.

Broadly, I think that conversations about politics in the USA have tended to be more heated than in the UK, at least until recently. The upsurge of populism and nationalism which we are seeing in many parts of the world is perhaps levelling that playing field a little.

And finally, sometimeunderwater, welcome to the fray!

Edited to add: By pure coincidence the Billy Connolly story appeared in the "recommendations" when I logged in to YouTube today, at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMzbbK9vmaM

162proximity1
Edited: Jul 6, 7:58am Top

>160 sometimeunderwater:

You're really very welcome.

Well, your question isn't a stupid one. If you want to think of this as an academic question, there's a good deal more which could be said about it.

Consider, for example: You write of this place as a "small book-cataloging website"--which it is. But that's to overlook a very big socio-political factor. There's a great deal of passion here about issues which are VERY important to the groups--rather, the individuals--who come here to debate them. Why? Where else are they going to go? The places where (non-academicians, lay-) people used to meet for serious discussions of matters of public interest have mostly dried up --like that "lake" in Russia. In many cases, it's well understood that there is not and there is unlikely ever to be a "meeting of the minds" behind these posts. (There are now many regulars to these fora whose posted comments I no longer ever look at. (e.g. >161 johnthefireman:) They (may) return that "favour." There is clearly no point in engaging with these people. But I post comments more often than not for the consideration of others who can be reached intellectually.)

In modern societies where meaningful democracy (participatory self-government) has become reduced to an even greater farce than it had been known as for the past several generations, people are left seething in their discontent. You probably see little evidence of this around you in the public sphere. That's because so many people have become, publicly, so thoroughly muted. (think: head-phones/ear-phones) The passion is going to go somewhere and, when, like a volcanic subterranean force, it finds an outlet, expect explosions.

In some areas of academic study, (where psychology meets politics, sociology and linguistics) this is referred to as the phenomenon of the magnification of "small differences". (1) (2)
also, e.g. : Barbarism and Its Discontents Stanford, CA., (2013) Stanford University Press, and "Barbarism of the Similar," by Maria BOLETSI (3), ; Analysing Political Discourse: Theory and Practice, London, New York, Routledge, (Taylor and Francis Group, Publishers) (2004) (full text at this link) ) by Paul Anthony CHILTON (4) )--where people who agree on a good many things are fiercely divided on matters which, to the disinterested, appear "marginal." To their advocates, these matters are not felt to be marginal in character.

__________________________________

(1) Freud, Signmund - Taboo of Virginity (1918) for "the narcissicm of minor differences". Freud cites Ernest Crawley's work.

(2) Crawley, Ernest - (1867-1924) (Worldcat.org link, above)

(3) Maria Boletsi, is Assistant Professor at the Film & Comparative Literature Department, Leiden University.

(4) Paul A. Chilton is professor of linguistics at the University of East Anglia.

163RickHarsch
Edited: Jul 6, 3:28pm Top

>162 proximity1: That lake in Russia referred to in the post above is of course the Aral Sea, which is far from Russia, straddling the border between Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan.

164Limelite
Jul 8, 9:38pm Top

Petard, meet >1 Carnophile:

Faux News, Trump's personal propaganda cheerleading machine and State Information System is now Public Enemy #1 in the mind of the Occupant-in-Chief. The network's crime? Broadcasting the loudly voiced opinions of him live from a French bar where patrons were celebrating USA women's soccer championship win with boisterous chants of "F*ck Trump!" that were heard over the airwaves by him, Trumpist idolators, and those cute lefties brave enough to monitor.

He unloaded, using his weapon of habit, Twitter, with a series of excoriating tweets critical of his once Golden-Haired Network. Best bits below.
"Watching @FoxNews weekend anchors is worse than watching low ratings Fake News CNN, or Lyin’ Brian Williams. . . @FoxNews is changing fast, but they forgot the people who got them there!" https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/07/trump-slams-tweetstorm-fox-news.html

Better than just Trump eating his own is the recent development from several Trump anchors and hosts, not a few of their guests, including (gasp) Democrats who appear on Faux airwaves in order to beard the lion. They are criticizing Fearless Illegitimate Leader! Could it be that those Faux TV propagandists are developing a healthy appetite? One for the truth? They certainly are prepared to eat "their own" if that's what's required before acknowledging reality and telling the truth.

For instance: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fox-news-turns-on-trump_n_5a99e885e4b0e6069a17f3d...
And: https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-will-look-into-fox-news-decision-to-st... Ahhhh, new flavors!

Even Neil Cavuto has had it up to here with Trump; in fact he broke the enchantment a year and a half ago. Just look at the Google listings for "Neil Cavuto goes off on Trump." Tasty!

Shepard Smith has been fact-checking the lying liar ever since -- you name it. Yum yum!

Karma is a b*tch, >1 Carnophile:

165Carnophile
Jul 11, 11:54am Top

>152 johnthefireman:

In #142 you wrote,
You have the opportunity to enlighten me on the substance of my post and explain to me how in your view your posts do not appear, or are not intended to be, hostile to a certain group, if you so wish. I note that you have made no attempt to do so.

You have the opportunity to enlighten me on the substance of my post and explain to me how in your view your posts do not appear, or are not intended to be, an indication that you’re a mass murderer, if you so wish. I note that you have made no attempt to do so.

(Just saying, "I'm not a mass murderer" doesn't "explain" anything.)

166Carnophile
Jul 11, 11:56am Top

>164 Limelite: They are criticizing Fearless Illegitimate Leader! Could it be that those Faux TV propagandists are developing a healthy appetite? ... They certainly are prepared to eat "their own"

LOL, that reminds me of this:

Mueller is building a case; applying pressure; climbing the chain in the same way a prosecutor goes after ordinary organized crime bosses... Thread by thread, Mueller is untangling the skein of corruption, collusion, and cover-up. Members of DJT's family will be going down soon. They will throw him under the bus...

167johnthefireman
Jul 11, 2:22pm Top

>165 Carnophile:

The difference is perhaps that I have not accused you of accusing me of anything, and I have no interest in pursuing it. You have accused me of accusing you of something, and you have pursued the matter. But if you're not interested, fine.

168Limelite
Jul 11, 7:47pm Top

>166 Carnophile:

You know what those who can't refute an argument are labeled, especially when their claim is turned against them?

"Cherry-picker," aka, the favorite summer pastime of Trumpists. snicker

169Carnophile
Jul 12, 11:52pm Top

>164 Limelite:
>168 Limelite:

Really? Trump created Fox News the same way that leftists created some of their own problems as noted in this thread?

Uh-huh. Remember: When getting your ass kicked, include a "snicker." Then no one will notice!

170StormRaven
Jul 13, 11:32am Top

No, the hypocrisy, question-dodging, disingenuousness, blatant lying, wild self-deceiving flights into convenient and self-serving fantasies

Nice of you to describe your posts in this way.

171Limelite
Jul 13, 7:44pm Top

>169 Carnophile:
Maybe not delusional Trumpist "really," but yes. Really really (with citations!). Petard really.

172Carnophile
Jul 14, 11:31am Top

>171 Limelite: Trump really created Fox News. Wow, I'm learning a lot in this thread.

173Limelite
Jul 14, 12:19pm Top

One of the walls poor reasoners erect to actual learning, beyond cherry-picking, is attempting to mischaracterize figurative language as literal same. In college, professors face this mental hurdle in their freshman writing and rhetoric classes and work with the enrollees to show them how to think (not what to think).

Students who achieve a passing grade in these introductory courses for teaching "thinking like an adult" have overcome the deficits they left high school with (emotional response, attacking the messenger, arguing from false premise, and inability to separate signal from noise, etc) and go on to effectively use their new powers of reason in problem solving, research, and persuasion, to name a few areas of mind training that university education addresses across the curriculum.

174Carnophile
Jul 14, 3:46pm Top

>173 Limelite: I am a college professor. The vast majority of college student writing displays better writing, and thinking, than your posts.

175StormRaven
Jul 14, 7:55pm Top

174: I am a college professor.

That's a dubious claim.

176jjwilson61
Jul 14, 10:47pm Top

Depends on the college

177Carnophile
Jul 14, 10:53pm Top

>175 StormRaven: "It stings too much! Deny! Deny!"

178Carnophile
Edited: Jul 14, 10:59pm Top

Racial politics roil Democratic Party
Democrats who have called President Trump and his policies racist are now pointing fingers at one another on issues of race.

Allegations of racial insensitivity are flying between the 2020 Democratic contenders, as well as between House Democrats, raising concerns that internecine squabbles over identity and race are tarnishing party leaders and distracting Democrats from their goal of ousting the president in 2020...

Frustrated lawmakers say the backbiting over race has gotten out of control... “It’s damaging to this party and the internal workings of the Democratic Party,” said Rep. Wm. Lacy Clay (D-Mo.). “I can tell you it’s not helpful.”
Clay did not explain why racial divisiveness is helpful in society in general, but "damaging" within the Democratic Party.

179StormRaven
Edited: Jul 14, 11:03pm Top

177: Any child taught by you is being cheated out of their tuition.

It is dubious that someone of such deficient mental faculties as you could possibly be employed by a college.

180proximity1
Jul 15, 7:23am Top


>174 Carnophile:

I'm lovin' this! ;^)

&

>177 Carnophile: : Yep. And, as evidence, these goomers have done the usual in such a case and "continued" the thread, leaving your stinging comments in the background where they hope readers won't bother to look.

Typical.

181Carnophile
Jul 15, 1:46pm Top

>180 proximity1: Yes, and the other cheap thing about that new thread is the attempt to completely change the thread title in the new thread.

182Carnophile
Edited: Jul 15, 1:51pm Top

>179 StormRaven: ...someone of such deficient mental faculties as you...

Input: Years of law school. Output: "Yer stoopid!"

Something something mental faculties something.

183Carnophile
Jul 15, 1:55pm Top

More from the article in #178, Racial politics roil Democratic Party:
Tensions exploded on Capitol Hill this week after Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) accused Pelosi of singling out women of color for criticism... Ocasio-Cortez’s remarks ignited a long-simmering feud with the Congressional Black Caucus (CBC).

CBC members, such as (Rep. William Lacy) Clay, exploded in anger at Ocasio-Cortez for having “used the race card” (L.O.L.) and accused progressives of seeking to oust black lawmakers by endorsing their primary challengers.

The progressive group Justice Democrats, which is closely aligned with Ocasio-Cortez, is supporting primary challengers to several longtime Democrats, including Clay and Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-Texas), a Hispanic Caucus member.

Justice Democrats have also considered a challenge to House Democratic Caucus Chairman Hakeem Jeffries (D-N.Y.), a CBC member who is viewed by many as a potential heir to Pelosi.

184StormRaven
Edited: Jul 15, 2:27pm Top

Something something mental faculties something.

I'm just going on the posts you've made over the years here. Literally nothing you have ever written on this site has been anything other than idiotic drivel. If you want others to believe you are something other than a clueless clown, you should learn how to write something that is other than debunked right-wing knee-jerk talking points.

You are like the creationists who get mad when biologists dismiss their creationist "arguments" out of hand. You, like those creationists, don't present anything that anyone needs to take any more seriously than a dismissive wave. You, like those creationists, are making stupid arguments that are so stupid that they don't deserve more respect than a snort of derision.

185Limelite
Jul 15, 3:58pm Top

>174 Carnophile:

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

186Carnophile
Jul 15, 9:33pm Top

>184 StormRaven: “I could so refute you! I totally could! I just don’t want to!”

187Carnophile
Jul 15, 9:41pm Top

Still more from the article in #178, Racial politics roil Democratic Party:
In the presidential race, Biden’s backers are still fuming over what they view as a dishonest characterization of his record on race by his rivals for the presidential nomination, including Sens. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.)...

Harris catapulted into the top tier of Democratic presidential contenders after an exchange with Biden at the first presidential debate. The California Democrat called Biden’s remarks about finding common ground with segregationist senators “hurtful,” and she attacked him for his decades-old opposition to a federal busing program aimed at integrating schools.

“I think Sen. Harris is out of control,” said Rep. A. Donald McEachin (D-Va.), a CBC (Congressional Black Caucus) member who has endorsed Biden for president...

Biden has slipped some in the polls since the first debate, but he remains the front-runner in the Democratic presidential primary in part because of his strong support from black voters.

Taken together, the controversies have Democrats shaking their heads over how they have reached the point of attacking one another over race.
Yeah, how could that happen? We spent decades normalizing attacking people for “racism” and making that the path to status and power on the left. We’re completely puzzled as why that behavior is increasing!

188LolaWalser
Jul 16, 8:31pm Top

>160 sometimeunderwater:

Depends on your gender. Women in here are not only routinely exposed to misogyny and sexism of opinion, they may live to be insulted out of the blue (possibly the effects of alcohol, a frequent handicap) as a "slut" and a "putrid cunt". It may happen in a language you don't speak, as that allows the sod to circumvent the TOS and avoid getting flagged. It may happen repeatedly. The offending sod will never apologise, and those who run the site won't lift a finger to penalise such behaviour. Other asshole bros of the local self-styled "left" will try to mansplain that you're a very "irritating" woman and hence insulting you is a fair game. See? Violence against women wouldn't be happening if we bitches weren't so darn irritating. (My shitlist populated that day like unto mushrooms after rain.)

A few years later, that same putrid-cunting individual may be sharing views on politesse & etiquette with the public, as I see by chance and to much amusement from John's post, but probably not warning one of the putrid-cunting, slutting hazard.

If this is too hair-raising to contemplate, then there's nothing but to retreat to that haven of civility that is Brexitannia these days, is there!

>161 johnthefireman:

All of that made me laugh a good minute. So much so I had to post in this dumbass thread...

189RickHarsch
Jul 16, 9:47pm Top

"It may happen in a language you don't speak, as that allows the sod to circumvent the TOS and avoid getting flagged."

Or it may happen in a partly shared non-English tongue by someone sandbagged abusively who had years before been referred to by the person as a monolingual 'sod' (it wasn't sod, but sod will do), who responded unkindly in kind in that partly shared foreign tongue, exasperated by a torrent of dishonest verbal assault.

190johnthefireman
Jul 18, 7:13am Top

>188 LolaWalser:

Thanks, Lola. And when I wrote, "I have learned a lot, which for me is the point of engaging", you and southernbooklady were two of the people I had in mind from whom I have learned a lot. Thanks to both of you.

191LolaWalser
Jul 18, 11:39am Top

>190 johnthefireman:

No need to thank me. If it's true that we can learn from almost anything and anyone, it's also true that "lessons" eventually have an end and there are limits to not just useful but moral "engagement". After a certain point your "engagement" with vile shits only legitimizes them and their behaviour. If the misogynists, the homophobes, the racists were less coddled here, fewer decent people would be blocking this group.

192RickHarsch
Edited: Jul 18, 2:48pm Top

>191 LolaWalser: The best literary group I found here reformed as a private group specifically to block LolaWalser. It's called Tropic of Ideas, an offshoot of a great group called Salon, and various other titles playing on Salon. Spiteful personal attacks became too much in that group and though it still exists, the core retreated to privacy.
I mention this because post 188 is referring to a spat between LolaWalser and me and she therefore has brought it up again after two or three years of blessed peace.

(ETA: it's an ugly irony that this resurfaced in the thread with the most pathetic, jejune title, which just a few days ago I attempted to divert. Further, I happen to agree with about 97% of what LolaWalser posts, admire her ability capture her outrage eloquently, and fully support her refusal to tread carefully where she has determined that enough is enough.)

193johnthefireman
Jul 19, 8:28am Top

>192 RickHarsch: Further, I happen to agree with about 97% of what LolaWalser posts, admire her ability capture her outrage eloquently, and fully support her refusal to tread carefully where she has determined that enough is enough

Well said.

194LolaWalser
Jul 21, 11:04am Top

>193 johnthefireman:

Nice, really nice.

I'm all out of patience here, John. I say this not for my sake, in order to elicit something from you on my behalf (that train has gone long ago), but because you will keep doing this: when you feel the temptation to lecture someone on the advantages of "engaging", do check first whether that person is a woman, or any other type of person without your male white privilege.

Because your "engaging" misogynistic shits comes at no cost to you and never will and is in itself a demonstration of your privilege. No misogynistic shit is going to call YOU a slut and a putrid cunt; such insults simply don't apply among "men"; you will never be depreciated because of your gender (or race, or sexual orientation etc.) and because you DON'T share this basic injustice with those of us open to such attacks, you also DON'T have the right to presume to tell us how to deal with them.

By all means, hobnob with the sleaze, buddy up to putrid cunters. But don't think you're acting in a better way than someone who is that sleaze's target. The whole fucking life.

195johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 21, 5:21pm Top

>194 LolaWalser: But don't think you're acting in a better way than someone who is that sleaze's target

Thanks, Lola. I don't think it's about anyone thinking they're acting better. My experience in life (which you so succintly sum up) leads me to engage in a certain way, yours leads you to engage differently. I respect you for that, but I act and think from my own experience while trying to learn from that of others, including your good self.

196JGL53
Edited: Jul 21, 3:08pm Top

> 195

I have to admire your old style christianity, john, but it just doesn't work in the Year of Our Lard 2019. I. e., the more you extend love and understanding to the monsters the more they will want to devour you (perhaps you should put down your bible and read some H.P. Lovecraft occasionally).

But your heart really seems to be in the right place so we all should respect that.

Namaste, john.

197johnthefireman
Jul 21, 5:26pm Top

>196 JGL53:

Thanks, JGL. While "old style christianity" is a foundational part of my value system (more precisely, Catholic Social Thought), I would add that it is also based on personal experience of peacebuilding. Working for peace in particular conflicts one has to engage with all stakeholders, including mass murderers, "terrorists" and war criminals, as well as "spoilers" who wish to derail the peace process. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it has to be done.

198LolaWalser
Jul 21, 7:31pm Top

>195 johnthefireman:

Your experiences are not those of an unprivileged person and never will be. When it comes to dealing with those specific forms of discrimination, you have nothing to say that should take precedence over the viewpoint of the unprivileged persons.

Did you ever in your life consider how everything you have done was not just facilitated but made possible in the first place by the fact that you are a white man? Where would you be if you had been a woman, a black African, gay? Could a woman have had your life, stepped in your shoes, exactly as everything happened, making and maintaining your connections? If not, why not? Could an African, of any ethnicity or religion? Could an openly gay person?

You go around mediating between factions of non-whites, and specifically you meet a whole lot of men in doing so, not women, because women count for shit there even more than here--why can you do that? Because you are a man, and white, a foreigner in an exalted position, never one belonging to the bloodied parties, and you represent one of the oldest, richest and most powerful churches on earth. You have access to that church's hierarchy in a way only a man would. You are not a pariah where you live, because you are not gay and not a woman.

Whatever discomfort, hardship, danger you suffered, they'll have been the result of changing, passing circumstance, same as may happen to anyone. The risk of adventure, no more. And if you were sometimes wounded in your very being, because of what you are born like and not for any reason in your power to choose or change, you will smart at the injsutice and feel very wronged, but it will be a passing insult, an individual occurrence, of no import to the great scheme of things in which your maleness and whiteness place you at the top. It is not how you have lived your whole life. It is not a permanent stance the world takes on you, forces on you, mutilates and hounds you with. You know nothing of that and never will.

199johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 21, 8:48pm Top

>198 LolaWalser:

Lola, I'm not making any claims of precedence over anybody. I'm aware of my privilege. All I'm doing is sharing my experience, which is really all any of us can do authentically. I have huge respect for your authenticity in sharing your experience, which is obviously different from mine. I learn from you and others. I'm not attacking you nor challenging your experience, and I hope you don't feel that I am. I'm simply sharing my experience.

And yes, I have often asked myself those questions, but of course I don't have an answer to them. I'm who I am. But thanks for reminding me.

200RickHarsch
Edited: Jul 22, 9:23am Top

>199 johnthefireman: Perhaps you already know this, jtf, but your crime was committed in >193 johnthefireman: when you, rather than condemning me as a misogynistic shit, quoted something I said that you liked. This was taken to mean that you 'hobnob with the sleaze, buddy up to putrid cunters,' which means, implicitly, that you are posturing yourself as better than LW in that you fail to condemn as she condemns. I would not be surprised if you had received a pm describing the LW version of what happened. My own version would be far different. I believe mine is accurate. LW no doubt believes hers is accurate. It is hardly surprising that someone with your experience would do his best to engage the situation fairly and based on what you actually know. Luckily for you I am not a terrorist, torturer, mass murderer, rapist, misongynist, and even am only occasionally an asshole. Like you, I do my best to try to understand the existential circumstances of the female, and like you I can only do my best to make the best decisions I can based on empathy. And like you I believe in economic equality. Unlike you, I am only engaged in 'the battle' as a writer and so have no evidence to present that I have done any good in the universe.

Edited to attempt to present the word implicitly with the appropriate number of ells.

201johnthefireman
Jul 22, 9:57am Top

>200 RickHarsch:

Thanks, Rick. Mind you, I may have to stop engaging with you and cut you off for ever over the issue of the appropriate number of ells in "implicitly"...

202RickHarsch
Jul 22, 10:08am Top

>201 johnthefireman: I know, but i knew with you I had better be up front about it...

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