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Sedevacante & The One True Catholic Church (contued) Part VII

Catholic Tradition

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1Joansknight
May 20, 10:39am Top

I guess....we are moving on....

4Joansknight
May 26, 10:05am Top

Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 10), Aug. 15, 1832: “Therefore, it is obviously absurd and injurious to propose a certain ‘restoration and regeneration’ for her (the Church) as though necessary for her safety and growth, as if she could be considered subject to any failing health or dimming of mind or other misfortune.”

5Joansknight
May 28, 10:29am Top



Saint Athanasius, to whom it was objected, "You have the bishops against you," answered with Faith: "that proves that they are all against the Church."

- Saint Athanasius (ca. 296-373)

Sound familiar....to a TRUE Catholic....it DOES!?!?

6johnthefireman
May 28, 10:40am Top

>5 Joansknight: .to a TRUE Catholic....it DOES

Of course it does. Athanasius is a revered saint of the Church and his teaching is part of the Tradition of the Church. Not the only teaching nor the whole Tradition, but part of, in context and complementary to all the rest of the teaching.

7Joansknight
May 30, 8:53am Top

Jeanne d'Arc was canonized by Pope Benedict XV on May 16, 1920; her feast day is May 30....

82wonderY
May 30, 9:19am Top

>7 Joansknight: May I celebrate her feast day with you?

What do you admire the most about her? Her story is remarkable!

9Joansknight
May 30, 9:22am Top

Yes...her faith....as you know I have many books about her!

10johnthefireman
May 30, 9:51am Top

Happy Feast Day. Her story is indeed remarkable.

11johnthefireman
May 31, 11:25am Top

A few quotes from our great Tradition which have struck me in my spiritual reading recently:

St. Bernard of Clairvaux (c. 1090–1153) wrote, “Inasmuch as the soul becomes unlike God, so it becomes unlike itself.” (Bernard of Clairvaux, Sermons on the Song of Songs, 82.5. This translation is from William Harmless, Mystics, (Oxford University Press: 2008), 55.)

Effortlessly,
Love flows from God into humans
Like a bird
Who rivers the air
Without moving her wings.
. . . Thus we move in God’s world
One in body and soul, . . .
Though outwardly separate in form.
As the Source strikes the note,
Humanity sings—
The Holy Spirit is our harpist,
And all strings
Which are touched in Love
Must sound.
—Mechthild of Magdeburg (1207–c. 1282/1294) (Mechthild of Magdeburg, “Effortlessly, / Love flows from God into man,” Women in Praise of the Sacred: 43 Centuries of Spiritual Poetry by Women, ed. Jane Hirshfield (Harper Perennial: 1995), 93.)

That is why I kneel before Abba God, from whom every family in heaven and on earth takes its name. And I pray that God, out of the riches of divine glory, will strengthen you inwardly with power through the working of the Spirit. May Christ dwell in your hearts through faith, so that you, being rooted and grounded in love, will be able to grasp fully the breadth, length, height and depth of Christ’s love and, with all God’s holy ones, experience this love that surpasses all understanding, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. To God—whose power now at work in us can do immeasurably more than we ask or imagine—to God be glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus through all generations, world without end! Amen. (Ephesians 3:14-21)

When accusers called Joan of Arc (1412–1431) the victim of her own imagination, she is frequently credited with this brilliant reply: “How else would God speak to me?” (Richard Rohr)

Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. (1 Corinthians 2:11-13)

The English anchorite Julian of Norwich (1342–1416)... after a serious illness, during which she experienced “shewings” or revelations of Jesus’ love, she wrote about the compassionate, mothering God she had encountered. “God is our mother as truly as God is our father,” she says. We come from the Womb of the Eternal... We are not simply made by God; we are made “of God.” God “is in everything,” writes Julian... So she speaks of “smelling” God, of “swallowing” God in the waters and juices of the earth, of “feeling” God in the human body and the body of creation... Our soul is made “of God,” as Julian says... (Richard Rohr, quoting Mother Julian from Julian of Norwich, Showings, chapter 51 (long text). See Revelation of Divine Love, trans. Elizabeth Spearing (Penguin: 1998))

Julian of Norwich is a particular favourite of mine amongst the 14th century Christian mystics.

12Joansknight
May 31, 11:51am Top

>11 johnthefireman: Things to ponder....

13Joansknight
Jun 3, 11:12am Top

Pope Leo XIII (1888): “… where a law is enacted contrary to reason, or to the eternal law, or to some ordinance of God, obedience is unlawful, lest, while obeying man, we become disobedient to God.” (Libertas #13)

14johnthefireman
Jun 3, 4:21pm Top

>13 Joansknight:

St Augustine said something very similar with regard to biblical exegesis of Genesis, that we should not pursue a literal interpretation which is contrary to reason. I'm travelling at the moment and can't supply the citation, but will do so when I get home in a couple of weeks or so.

15rolandperkins
Jun 3, 5:13pm Top

"Biblical exegesis of Genesis...contrary to reason" What
I've always found"contrary to reason" in Genesis is the implication that,
in their time, Adam / Eve/ Seth were the only
family on earth. I would think "the only one that had
members whose names are worth recording". (We're not told that Abel
had any children.)
I think Genesis does say that Adam was created "first of
all men". But how does one explain the genealogy of Lamech
givenj shortly afterwards? Did the mothers in that start with unnamed
sisters of Abel or Seth -=- or were they distant cousins?

16Joansknight
Jun 4, 10:22am Top

Pope Leo XIII (1888): “… where a law is enacted contrary to reason, or to the eternal law, or to some ordinance of God, obedience is unlawful, lest, while obeying man, we become disobedient to God.” (Libertas #13)

18Joansknight
Jun 7, 5:39am Top

Pope Leo XII (1825): “… the bridegroom himself, Jesus Christ said: Whoever does not hear the Church, let him be to you like a heathen and a publican.” (Charitate Chisti #14)

19Joansknight
Jun 8, 8:53am Top

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 5), June 29, 1896: “The Church of Christ, therefore, is one and the same for ever; those who leave it depart from the will and command of Christ, the Lord – leaving the path of salvation they enter on that path of perdition… He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.”

20Joansknight
Jun 9, 9:29am Top

Pope Leo XIII (1880): “all societies of the Catholic Church have the same purpose in view, namely, by the diffusion of the Gospel light to bring the largest possible number of those outside the Church to the knowledge and worship of God and Jesus Christ Whom He has sent.” (Sancta Dei civitas #5)

21Joansknight
Jun 10, 9:01am Top

Pope Pius XI, Quas Primas (# 19), Dec. 11, 1925: “When once men recognize, both in private and public life, that Christ is King, society will at last receive the great blessings of real liberty, well-ordered discipline, peace and harmony.”

22Joansknight
Edited: Jun 10, 11:47am Top

Forget it!

23Joansknight
Edited: Jun 10, 11:49am Top

>14 johnthefireman: does NOT care about the TRUE Church of Christ!

25Joansknight
Jun 13, 9:30am Top

Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 19), Aug. 15, 1832: “Here surely belong the infamous and wild plans of the Waldensians, the Beghards, the Wycliffites, and other such sons of Belial, who were the sores and disgrace of the human race; they often received a richly deserved anathema from the Holy See.”

28Joansknight
Jun 22, 12:44pm Top

Pope Pius XI (1937): “Since Christ… finished the task of Redemption, and by breaking up the reign of sin merited for us the grace of being the children of God, since that day no other name under heaven has been given to men, whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).” (Mit brennender sorge #17)

29johnthefireman
Jun 23, 2:06am Top

The third {revelation} is that our Lord God, almighty wisdom, all love, just as truly as {God} has made everything that is, so truly {God} does and brings about all that is done . . . we are securely protected through love, in joy and sorrow, by the goodness of God. . . . All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

—Julian of Norwich, Revelations of Divine Love, chapters 1 and 27 (Long text), trans. Elizabeth Spearing (Penguin Classics: 1998), 41, 79.

31Joansknight
Jul 1, 9:15am Top

>29 johnthefireman: Tell me....what is it about the TRUTH that scares you the most....why do you reject it!?!?

32johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 1, 9:31am Top

>31 Joansknight:

That's really quite a pointless question (and implied insult), given that you and I both believe we are following the truth, only that we disagree on what the truth is. I follow the truth as I see it within the community of the Catholic Church, you follow a different, and in my view flawed, breakaway path.

33Joansknight
Jul 1, 9:40am Top

>32 johnthefireman: I follow a breakaway path....interesting....I follow Christ's Church that IS my "breakaway path" you follow the ways of MAN & SOCIETY and REJECT all that is Catholic!

34Joansknight
Jul 1, 9:43am Top

>32 johnthefireman: You say your church is Catholic....your clergy NOT only rejects Church DOCTRINES....they MOLEST children!

35johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 1, 9:49am Top

>33 Joansknight:

No, I follow the Catholic Church. You appear to reject that Church and yet still claim that your breakaway sect is Catholic. Fine, if that's how you feel, but there really isn't any need to attack me continuously just because we disagree on whether the Catholic Church is the one headed by the pope and bishops in apostolic succession, with 1.3 billion adherents all over the world, and recognised as such by almost everybody in the world, or a few thousand people based around a monastery in the USA. Look, if that's what you believe, continue to believe it, but if your faith is based on attacking other people then I think there is something flawed there. Part of Catholic tradition has always been to prize charity in all our dealings.

And I wish you would stop referring to "MAN & SOCIETY", unless you are prepared to argue in detail what you mean by it and how the Catholic Church is following them and "REJECTING all that is Catholic". The Catholic Church is following its long and sacred Tradition; those who have broken away are rejecting it.

36Joansknight
Jul 1, 10:00am Top

>35 johnthefireman: I have shown you Saints who have prophesied the APOSTASY....including Pope Leo XIII....you reject them....and you also believe a TRUE priest of Christ's Church is capable of molesting children....I am NOT attacking you....I am attacking APOSTASY & HERESY!

37Joansknight
Jul 1, 10:04am Top

Weak minded people follow the PIED PIPER....weak minded people follow the VATICAN II APOSTASY

38johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 1, 10:20am Top

>37 Joansknight: Weak minded people follow the PIED PIPER....weak minded people follow the VATICAN II APOSTASY

You see how pointless this statement is? One could just as easiliy say, "Weak minded people follow the PIED PIPER....weak minded people follow a couple of US ex-brothers' conspiracy theory".

39Joansknight
Jul 1, 10:11am Top

>35 johnthefireman: 1.3 billion say they ARE "Catholic"....how many of that 1.3 billion REALLY practice their "faith"....is that why your churches are so packed on Sundays!?!?

40Joansknight
Jul 1, 10:14am Top

>38 johnthefireman: NOT going to answer me about the CATHOLIC SAINTS who philosophized the APOSTASY I see!?!?

41johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 1, 10:23am Top

>36 Joansknight:

I think you need to reflect more on what prophecy is. Fr Richard Rohr has a good reflection on it this morning. I would also recommend The Prophetic Imagination by Walter Brueggemann.

Speaking Truth from Within

Monday, July 1, 2019


A prophet is one who names a situation truthfully in its largest context without being pulled into dualistic factions. Scripture shows the Hebrew prophets speaking to the people as one of their own, not above or apart from the community. Prophets share in the problems and in the gifts of grace as they seek to guide the future toward something better for the collective. And do note that they almost always address the collective: “The House of Israel” especially, but also Assyria, Egypt, Bethel, Gilgal, and many others. Jesus, following their pattern, does the same with Jerusalem, Bethsaida, Zebulun, Naphtali, Chorazin, and Capernaum. How did we not see this?

While our society places great emphasis on the individual, true prophets are almost always concerned with social, institutional, national, or corporate evil and our participation in it. They only speak of individual sin when referring to kings, high priests, and other leaders who represent the whole. Frankly, that’s where Christians got our notion of church—from the Jews—that there has to be some kind of collective good or collective transformation that bands together, because there is no way that we as individuals can stand alone against corporate evil or systemic sin. Here the individual is useless. The individual will be bowled over and lose.

In many of his public addresses, Pope John Paul II reintroduced this concept when he referenced sin and evil as social, institutional, or structural. Sadly, his terms have been largely ignored, I think, because we lost the prophetic imagination or way of picturing both the problem and the solution.

Because the prophet or prophetess speaks truthfully in the largest context, after the fact, it does often appear that they foretold something. But prophecy is much closer to the Eastern idea of karma or that what goes around comes around. Prophets teach how reality works by sharing what’s going to happen. You keep destroying the earth, and you’re not going to survive. That’s not a threat; it’s a description. Unfortunately, however, Christians often read the prophets as using threats to try to change behavior, when really they’re just showing us the universal patterns that are always true. This is the karma of events: evil is its own punishment, and goodness is its own reward.

The Jewish scholar Martin Buber points out in his marvelous early study of the prophets, The Prophetic Faith, that usually what the prophets said would happen actually did not happen. That’s because the future is always contingent upon our cooperation, choices, and actions. Therefore, if we live in love and treat the poor with justice, the good will happen.


you also believe a TRUE priest of Christ's Church is capable of molesting children

What on earth is that about? There is no doubt that priests have molested children, and that bishops have covered it up. Many of the priests and especially the bishops involved were products of the pre-Vatican II Church. In my pre-Vatican II childhood I knew quite a few of them, although none of them ever molested me and I only found out much later why they had disappeared from the scene. The post-Vatican II Church was left with the horrendous task of dealing with these crimes and the institutional systems which allowed them to happen and be covered up, a task which it is still battling with. Priests are being laicised and are answering for their crimes in criminal courts, and bishops are also being taken to court for covering up.

42johnthefireman
Jul 1, 10:22am Top

>39 Joansknight: 1.3 billion say they ARE "Catholic"....how many of that 1.3 billion REALLY practice their "faith"....is that why your churches are so packed on Sundays!?!?

The same question could have been asked pre-Vatican II. Believe me, Catholic churches were REALLY packed then! How many of them really practiced their faith? Who knows? That's between them and their God.

43Joansknight
Jul 1, 10:24am Top

>41 johnthefireman: That is NOT an answer...

44johnthefireman
Jul 1, 10:26am Top

>43 Joansknight:

Well, call me old-fashioned, but I think it is. Prophecy is not predicting the future, it is reading the signs of the times, alerting the community, and offering a hope- and Spirit-filled way forward, which the community can of course choose to accept or reject. Breaking away from the Church would count as a rejection, I suppose.

45Joansknight
Jul 1, 10:31am Top

>44 johnthefireman: So reject what saints predict!?

46Joansknight
Jul 1, 10:34am Top

>44 johnthefireman: Tis means NOTHING to you!?!? Our Lady of La Salette, Sep. 19, 1846: “Rome will lose the Faith and will become the seat of the anti-Christ....the Church will be in eclipse.”

47johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 1, 10:40am Top

>45 Joansknight: So reject what saints predict!?

You're not listening. The saints were not predicting, they were prophesying.

Edited to add: And often using apocalyptic language to do so, which, as in Revelations in the bible, is itself an indication that they are most likely saying something metaphorical rather than literal.

48Joansknight
Jul 1, 10:44am Top

>47 johnthefireman: Heretics have an answer for everything....bravo! I am glad you NOT only know the minds of the saints....but what they were saying!

49johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 1, 10:51am Top

>48 Joansknight:

That response is a real cop out. You don't want to engage on the substance of what I am saying so you label me a heretic and you can then dismiss anything I say, regardless of its actual merits.

Let's see if we know the mind of Jesus and what he was saying.

He said, "I am the true vine". Did he mean that he was green, covered in leaves and grapes? And he said, "You are the branches". Were his listeners also green and leafy?

Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd". Did he mean that he spent his days watching flocks of sheep? But hang on, we know he was a carpenter when he wasn't preaching. How did he find time to watch those sheep?

No, because in fact we recognise parables, we recognise metaphor (indeed all language about God is metaphor because God is greater than any language we have), we recognise teaching, we recognise prophecy... indeed it is quite obvious to anybody that even in our own everyday life not everything we say is to be taken literally. But you wish to make an exception out of saints, who apparently only and always spoke literally, even though Jesus didn't?

50Joansknight
Edited: Jul 1, 11:03am Top

>49 johnthefireman: What the holy men and women of the Church prophesied were NOT metaphors....they were the things to come....to TRULY happen!

51Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:05am Top

>49 johnthefireman: Now you claim to know what our LORD also meant!?

52johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 1, 11:07am Top

>50 Joansknight: What the holy men and women of the Church prophesied were NOT metaphors....they were the things to come....to TRULY happen!

And how do you know that, given that so much religious language is metaphor?

>51 Joansknight: Now you claim to know what our LORD also meant!?

In these cases, yes, I do. Do you disagree with me on what the Lord meant? Are you claiming that he meant he was green and leafy and spent his days herding flocks of real sheep?

53Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:11am Top

>52 johnthefireman: How do you know the minds of the saints!?!? Isaiah predicted Christ's birth....was that a metaphor!?

54Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:13am Top

>52 johnthefireman: St. Jeanne d'Arc said "our Lord first served"....did that mean we could also serve MAN while we were at it!?

55Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:17am Top

>52 johnthefireman: Please tell me....who comes FIRST Christ or man!?!?

56Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:21am Top

>52 johnthefireman: Revelations also speaks of the APOSTASY....I am sure that is a metaphor also though!

57Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:25am Top

>52 johnthefireman: So I take it...."outside the Catholic Church there is NO salvation" is also a METAPHOR!?!?

58Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:27am Top

I think >52 johnthefireman: went to bed....

59johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 1, 11:35am Top

Well, you haven't yet answered my question about the leafy green Jesus watching sheep.

And yes, some prophecies will come true, in that they are often a warning calling for repentance (in the sense of metanoia). If there is no repentance/change, there will be consequences. Richard Rohr (above) gives us a topical secular example: "You keep destroying the earth, and you’re not going to survive".

>58 Joansknight: Why would I go to bed at 6.30 in the evening?

60Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:35am Top

>59 johnthefireman: See there....SECULAR....THE WAYS OF MAN!?

61Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:36am Top

>59 johnthefireman: Thank you for making my point!

62johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 1, 11:38am Top

>61 Joansknight: Thank you for making my point!

Which point was that? You are rambling, my friend, and not addressing the issues.

63Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:40am Top

>62 johnthefireman: You made a SECULAR reference....which you apparently cherish!

64johnthefireman
Jul 1, 11:45am Top

>63 Joansknight:

A secular reference as an example of a genre. Why would you think I "cherish" it? It's one that happens to be already in a previous post so it is easy to cut and paste.

And the leafy green Jesus tending sheep? You know, even in the good Catholic pre-Vatican II primary school that I went to, we were taught that Jesus taught in parables, ie that he spoke truths which were not the same as the literal meaning of his words. Why are you apparently so scared to engage with that truth?

65Joansknight
Jul 1, 11:51am Top

>64 johnthefireman: the Church is in eclipse....that is the TRUTH!

66Joansknight
Jul 1, 12:07pm Top

>64 johnthefireman: Here is another metaphor for you....Saint Bede the Venerable (c. 720): “Just as all within the Ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron)

67Joansknight
Jul 1, 3:13pm Top

>64 johnthefireman: If there were 1.3 billion "Catholics"....professing and living their faith daily....the world would take notice....where are they John!?!?

68Joansknight
Jul 1, 3:15pm Top

>64 johnthefireman: Oh....was that a metaphor!?!?

69johnthefireman
Jul 1, 3:25pm Top

>67 Joansknight:

What is the relevance of that question? Are you suggesting that the world has taken notice of your small group of Sedevacantists more than it has taken notice of the Catholic Church? Are you not aware of the impact of the Catholic Church on the world? What is your point?

70Joansknight
Edited: Jul 1, 4:08pm Top

>69 johnthefireman: the ONLY thing the world knows about your "Catholic" church is that its clergy molests children....your churches are half empty on Sundays....1.3 billion "Catholics" do NOT even practice their faith!

71Joansknight
Jul 1, 4:15pm Top

>69 johnthefireman: What the world's news media says....or does NOT say about the VII APOSTASY....does NOT make it Catholic!

72johnthefireman
Jul 1, 4:36pm Top

I'm still trying to work out what your point is. You are setting up questions and then when I answer them, you change the question. If you're trying to say that the Catholic Church and its members are not perfect, indeed are far from perfect, then there is no disagreement. We are a Church of sinners and saints, often at the same time. If you're trying to say that the Catholic Church is not the Catholic Church, then what is the Catholic Church? Are you trying to imply that Sedevacante is in fact the Catholic Church? If so, on what evidence, and in whose opinion?

74Joansknight
Jul 1, 5:00pm Top

>72 johnthefireman: Yet....another fine example of your church....https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/news/cardinal-bernardin-homosexual-predator-satanist/?utm_source=WPhp&utm_medium=Slider&utm_campaign=WP

76Joansknight
Jul 1, 5:03pm Top

>72 johnthefireman: Shall I continue with more HERESIES!?!?

77Joansknight
Jul 1, 5:05pm Top

>72 johnthefireman: Last one for now....https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/news/catholic-justin-trudeau-refuses-grants-for-pro-life-pro-family-groups/?utm_source=WPn&utm_medium=S-img&utm_campaign=Slider

78Joansknight
Jul 1, 5:07pm Top

>72 johnthefireman: One last metaphor....Saint Bede the Venerable (c. 720): “Just as all within the Ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.” (Hexaemeron)

79MyopicBookworm
Jul 1, 5:17pm Top

> Our Lady of La Salette, Sep. 19, 1846: “Rome will lose the Faith and will become the seat of the anti-Christ....the Church will be in eclipse.”

As a prediction made in 1846, one might well suppose it a response to the election of Pius IX in June of that year, and the subsequent turning away of the Roman Church from Christian truth to the superstitious "doctrines" of the Immaculate Conception and Papal Infallibility.

:)

80johnthefireman
Jul 2, 12:18am Top

>79 MyopicBookworm:

I think you make an important point that statements such as that by Our Lady of Salette and all the others that Joansknight referred to were all made in context, usually in response to a particular issue.To take those statements hundreds of years later and read them literally without any context is obviously unhelpful. That's why we have to apply hermeneutical prinicples to any ancient document, including the bible and the Tradition of the Church. I refer Joansknight back to my leafy green Jesus spending his days tending four-footed woolly animals.

81johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 2, 7:06am Top

Joansknight, I'm working from home these days so I have time to engage in these long fairly pointless conversations, but really we're not getting anywhere, are we? We seem to be pursuing a lot of red herrings. Let me try to clarify what it is I would actually like you to clarify for me about Sedevacante. You can then decide whether you want to try to clarify your position or whether you simply want to call me a HERETIC and quote saints out of context.

I have no problem with someone who says the Catholic Church is wrong, corrupt, abhorrent or anything. Many protestants and atheists have told me so. Obviously I disagree with them, but they can present reasons for their opinion, and we can live and let live.

I also have no problem with anyone who points out flaws within the Church. Many Catholics, including myself, are well aware of things that are wrong within our Church, and in our own small way try to right those wrongs. That's why we have had councils, like Nicea, Trent, Vatican I and Vatican II, to deal with issues. It's why we've had reforms such as Cluny. It's why we've had synods, ancient ones such as Whitby, and quite a few recent modern ones, on particular issues. It's why we had saints and prophets such as the ones you quote who have drawn attention to specific issues, as >79 MyopicBookworm: points out, and called for reform. We are a Church of sinners as well as saints, and much of the development of the Church, its doctrine and its Tradition has been a response to real issues as they arise, even in biblical times (cf Acts and many of the epistles, for example).

What I do not understand, and what so far I have been unable to glean from you, is that the Catholic Church is not the Catholic Church. As I asked you in >72 johnthefireman:, if that is the case, on what grounds and on whose say-so? My reference to 1.3 billion Catholics is not an appeal to numbers to bolster my position, but simply a recognition that a very large institution exists whether you like it or not. One could say the same of Islam. There are approximately the same number of Muslims in the world. It's one thing to say that you think Islam is wrong, but would you claim that Islam is not Islam? So how and why do you claim that the Catholic Church is not the Catholic Church?

Now, if you are trying to claim that it has departed from almost all of the recognisable characteristics of Catholicism, fine, but justify that claim with more than a few random quotes about future apostasy and heresy. While some doctrines have developed in a way that you personally don't agree with, I think it would be hard to demonstrate that the Catholic Church has departed from itself beyond recognition. It still has a pope, bishops with apostolic succession, a body of doctrine, canon law, Tradition, parishes, missions, monastic orders, charitable work, etc. It still celebrates the Eucharist and other sacraments all over the world. How is it no longer the Catholic Church?

But just as importantly, who has made the judgement that it is no longer the Catholic Church? You personally? Or a small group of people who use the slogan Sedevacante? Look, I can accept that in an extreme case a pope could become a heretic, but the pope alone is not the Church. There are dozens of cardinals and thousands of bishops, not to mention the laity, priests, sisters, brothers, theologians, canon lawyers, pastors and all the others who make up the Church. Have they all simultaneously become heretics? You focus a lot on Vatican II. It was not the work of a single pope (although all credit to John XXIII for having the courage to start it, and to Paul VI for not watering it down too much, both no doubt inspired by the Holy Spirit) but of every bishop in the world. Were they all heretics? But back to the main point of this paragraph: who makes the judgement that they are all heretics, and on what authority?

It would be very helpful to me if you could clarify some of the above.

82johnthefireman
Jul 2, 2:25am Top

Another interesting reflection from Richard Rohr today:

The Hebrew prophets are in a category all their own. Within the canonical, sacred Scriptures of other world religions we do not find major texts that are largely critical of that very religion. Prophets can deeply love their tradition and profoundly criticize it at the same time, which is a very rare art form. In fact, it is their love of its depths that forces them to criticize their own religion. This is almost the hallmark of a prophet. Their deepest motivation is not negative but profoundly positive.

The dualistic mind presumes that if you criticize something, you don’t love it. Wise prophets would say the opposite. Institutions prefer loyalists and “company men” to prophets. We’re uncomfortable with people who point out our shadow or imperfections. It is no accident that prophets and priests are usually in opposition to one another (e.g., Amos 5:21-6:7, 7:10-17). Yet Paul says the prophetic gift is the second most important charism (1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11). Prophets are not popular people. Note how the Gospels say it was “the priests, elders, and teachers of the law” who condemned Jesus...

One of the most common complaints I hear from some Catholics is, “You criticize the Church too much.” But criticizing the Church is just being faithful to the very clear pattern set by the prophets and Jesus (just read Matthew 23). I would not bother criticizing organized Christianity if I did not also love it. There is a negative criticism that is nothing but complaining and projecting. But there is a positive criticism that is all about hope and development. This is no small point, and such a difference must be taught. The charism of prophecy must be called forth...


I would suggest that "positive criticism" is heard from those who remain in the Catholic Church and seek to reform its faults, as Vatican councils, synods and many other initiatives have tried to do, as well as individuals who continue to work for change at their own level of the Church. "Negative criticism" might include claiming that the Catholic Church is not the Catholic Church, or that there have been no validly elected popes since 1958.

83Joansknight
Jul 2, 8:41am Top

>79 MyopicBookworm: Superstitious doctrines....where on earth are you coming from!?!? >82 johnthefireman: Believes this also!?!? I have seen it all now....HERESY in all its glory!

84Joansknight
Jul 2, 9:00am Top

Psalm 139:4- “Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it completely.”

85Joansknight
Jul 2, 10:25am Top

No response....from across the aisle....how typical!?!?

86Joansknight
Jul 2, 10:27am Top

It is nice to know that HERETICS stick together!

87Joansknight
Jul 2, 11:14am Top

>81 johnthefireman: Ramble on all you like....I could care less!

88johnthefireman
Jul 2, 11:22am Top

>85 Joansknight:

Well, I thought I was the one who should ask, "No repsonse?" I asked you in >81 johnthefireman: if you could clarify some things for me, and I'm waiting for a response. Not holding my breath, though.

89Joansknight
Jul 2, 11:33am Top

>88 johnthefireman: You do NOT believe in the doctrines of IMMACULATE CONCEPTION & PAPAL INFIDELITY!?!? You think they are suspicious!?

90Joansknight
Jul 2, 11:52am Top

>88 johnthefireman: HERETICS are always slow to respond....I mean you John!

91johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 2, 12:15pm Top

>89 Joansknight:

Where has that comment come from? Where have I even mentioned those doctrines or said they are suspicious?

>90 Joansknight:

Well, if HERETICS are always slow to respond, then that definitely means you, as you still have not responded to my >81 johnthefireman:, which in itself repeats questions I have asked you before.

92Joansknight
Jul 2, 12:17pm Top

>91 johnthefireman: You were quick to agree with >79 MyopicBookworm:....is he a Jew!?

93Joansknight
Jul 2, 12:19pm Top

>91 johnthefireman: I did answer you....

95johnthefireman
Jul 2, 1:43pm Top

>91 johnthefireman:

Thank you, but we don't normally expect people to read whole general books to answer a simple question. Can you respond to me in a couple of paragraphs the answers to the questions I pose - why/how is the Catholic Church not the Catholic Church, and on whose authority is that judgement made?

96Joansknight
Edited: Jul 2, 4:37pm Top

>95 johnthefireman: Satan truly has you in his grasp....if you can NOT even see the TRUTH! Your precious VATICAN II and your "saintly" ANTI-POPES....(a manifest heretic can NOT be pope) your disregard for Catholic Dogma and your child abusing clergy make it NOT CATHOLIC....shall I go on!?!?

97Joansknight
Jul 2, 4:35pm Top

>95 johnthefireman: do you even have a conscientious....a mind of your own....you are right about one thing....no book showed me the evil of the VII APOSTASY....my soul and the guidance of God did! It is far better that I think the way that I do....1.3 billion heretics do NOT think at all!

98Joansknight
Jul 2, 5:57pm Top

>95 johnthefireman: https://www.librarything.com/work/277226/book/67218615....Please forgive me...I forgot....you do NOT read Catholic books!

99Joansknight
Jul 2, 6:04pm Top

Here is another book >95 johnthefireman: refuses to read and accept as Catholic....https://www.librarything.com/work/277339/book/67173423

100johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 3, 12:26am Top

Ah well, once again I tried.

>99 Joansknight:

Actually I have studied Denzinger, as have most Catholics who have had a theological education.

>79 MyopicBookworm:, >83 Joansknight:, >92 Joansknight:

I think the point being made by MyopicBookworm is that these two doctrines which were first defined by Vatican I were not without controversy, and some claimed that they were new departures from doctrine. The Church explained that they were legitimate developments of doctrine, indeed simply making explicit things which were already implicit in the Tradition and were already believed by many of the faithful. Similarly Vatican II, which, er, was not without controversy, and some claimed that it contained new departures from doctrine. The Church explained that they were legitimate developments of doctrine, indeed simply making explicit things which were already implicit in the Tradition and were already believed by many of the faithful. Deja vu?

Why on earth would you ask whether MyopicBookworm is a Jew? Is that relevant?

>97 Joansknight: no book showed me the evil of the VII APOSTASY....my soul and the guidance of God did! It is far better that I think the way that I do

And I have no problem with you following your conscience, although I wish you would accept that others who also follow their "soul and the guidance of God" are as sincere and thoughtful as yourself only they have come to a different conclusion. But again we come back to your claim that by following your own conscience (which you are perfectly entitled to do, good on you, mate!) and rejecting the mainstream Catholic Church this makes your version of the Catholic Church the "true" Catholic Church. It doesn't. As I have said to you before in the mists of these endless and rambling conversations, that's the protestant way. You have a disagreement with your church's doctrine or praxis, or with the church leader, and you break away and start your own. I have no problem with that if that is what your conscience tells you to do, but in reality (rather than in your mind) that does not automatically make the breakaway church the "true" Catholic Church.

101Joansknight
Jul 4, 9:14am Top

>100 johnthefireman: VII APOSTASY did the BREAKING-AWAY....the Catholic Church can NOT breakaway from itself....every-time an ANTI-POPE has held the Chair of St. Peter....and the Vatican hostage....the Catholic Church continued to exist....as it does NOW! As educated as you may be....you have NO understanding what the Catholic Church TRULY is!

102Joansknight
Jul 4, 9:57am Top

CLARIFICATION: I am not trying to attack or be abusive towards any person or persons....I am ONLY defending the Catholic faith....as any TRUE Catholic would do!

Profession of Catholic Faith
Promulgated solemnly by Pope Pius IV and the Council of Trent
● I, N., with firm faith believe and profess each and every article contained in the symbol of faith which the holy Roman Church uses; namely:
● I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in
● one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages; God from God, light from light, true God from true God; begotten not made, of one substance (consubstantial) with the Father, through whom all things were made;
● who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was made incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
● He was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, died, and was buried; and
● He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven;
● He sits at the right hand of the Father, and He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end.
● And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who equally with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified; who spoke through the prophets.
● And I believe that there is one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.
● I confess one baptism for the remission of sins; and I hope for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
● I resolutely accept and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and the other practices and regulations of that same Church.
● In like manner I accept Sacred Scripture according to the meaning which has been held by holy Mother Church and which she now holds. It is Her prerogative to pass judgment on the true meaning and interpretation of Sacred Scripture. And I will never accept or interpret it in a manner different from the unanimous agreement of the Fathers.
● I also acknowledge that there are truly and properly seven sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and that they are necessary for the salvation of the human race, although it is not necessary for each individual to receive them all.
● I acknowledge that the seven sacraments are: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and that of the seven, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders cannot be repeated without committing a sacrilege.
● I also accept and acknowledge the customary and approved rites of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of these sacraments.
● I embrace and accept each and every article on Original Sin and Justification declared and defined in the most holy Council of Trent.
● I likewise profess that in Mass a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice is offered to God on behalf of the living and the dead, and that the Body and Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is truly, really, and substantially present in the most holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, and that there is a change of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood; and this change the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation.
● I also profess that the whole and entire Christ and a true Sacrament is received under each separate species.
● I firmly hold that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful.
● I likewise hold that the saints reigning together with Christ should be honored and invoked, that they offer prayers to God on our behalf, and that their relics should be venerated.
● I firmly assert that images of Christ, of the Mother of God ever Virgin, and of the other saints should be owned and kept, and that due honor and veneration should be given to them.
● I affirm that the power of indulgences was left in the keeping of the Church by Christ, and that the use of indulgences is very beneficial to Christians.
● I acknowledge the holy, Catholic, and apostolic Roman Church as the mother and teacher of all churches; and…
● I unhesitatingly accept and profess all the doctrines (especially those concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching authority) handed down, defined, and explained by the sacred canons and ecumenical councils and especially those of this most holy Council of Trent (and by the ecumenical Vatican Council I). And at the same time:
● I condemn, reject, and anathematize everything that is contrary to those propositions, and all heresies without exception that have been condemned, rejected, and anathematized by the Church.
● I, N., promise, vow, and swear that, with God’s help, I shall most constantly hold and profess this true Catholic faith, outside which no one can be saved and which I now freely profess and truly hold. With the help of God, I shall profess it whole and unblemished to my dying breath; and, to the best of my ability, I shall see to it that my subjects or those entrusted to me by virtue of my office hold it, teach it, and preach it. So help me God and His holy Gospel.

103Joansknight
Jul 4, 10:45am Top

I think it is safe to assume....TRUTH matters to know one....especially when Satan has such a powerful grip on them!?!?

104johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 5, 2:28am Top

A nice little reflection on contemplation by Sr Joan Chittister - link

A spiritual path that does not lead to a living commitment to . . . the Kingdom of God within and around us everywhere for everyone, is no path at all. . . . It is a dead end on the way to God. . . .

Contemplation, you see, is a change in consciousness. It brings us to see the big picture. It brings us to see beyond our own boundaries, beyond our own denominations, beyond even our own doctrines and dogmas and institutional self-interest, straight into the face of a mothering God from whose womb has come all the life that is.

To claim to be aware of the oneness of life and not to regard all of it as sacred trust is a violation of the very purpose of contemplation, which is an immersion in the God of life. To talk about the oneness of life and not to know oneness with all of life . . . is not contemplation. . . . Transformed from within then, the contemplative becomes a new kind of presence in the world who signals another way of being. . . . The contemplative can never again be a complacent, non-participant in an oppressive system. . . . From contemplation comes not only the consciousness of the universal connectedness of life, but the courage to model it as well.

Those who have no flame in their hearts for justice, no consciousness of personal responsibility for the reign of God, no raging commitment to human community may, indeed, be seeking God; but make no mistake, God is still, at best, only an idea to them not a living reality. Indeed, contemplation is a very dangerous activity. It not only brings us face to face with God, it brings us, as well, face to face with the world, and then it brings us face to face with the self; and then, of course, something must be done. Something must be filled up, added to, freed from, begun again, ended at once, changed, or created or healed, because nothing stays the same once we have found the God within. . . . We become connected to everything, to everyone. We carry the whole world in our hearts, the oppression of all peoples, the suffering of our friends, the burdens of our enemies, the raping of the earth, the hunger of the starving, the joyous expectation every laughing child has a right to. Then, the zeal for justice consumes us. Then, action and prayer are one.

. . . To be contemplative, we must have zeal for the God of love in whom all things have their beginning and their end. Fortunately, you will know when that happens to you, because you will find yourselves consumed with love not only for God but for everything and everyone God has created and who lives and is shaping this world right now. There is no clearer sign of real contemplation.
.

105Joansknight
Jul 6, 9:03am Top



The devil has always attempted, by means of the heretics, to deprive the world of the Mass, making them precursors of Antichrist, who, before anything else, will try to abolish and will actually abolish the Holy Sacrament of the altar, as a punishment for the sins of men, according to the prediction of Daniel "And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice" (Daniel 8:12).

- Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (1696-1787)

106johnthefireman
Jul 6, 11:47am Top

>105 Joansknight:

It appears this is one prediction which has not come true, as the Mass is celebrated all over the world, in fact in far more parts of the world than it was during the time of St Alphonsus, when the missions to Africa and Asia were in their infancy. Deo gratias.

107Joansknight
Jul 6, 11:51am Top

>106 johnthefireman: VII SECT "mass"....does NOT count....it HAS come true!

108Joansknight
Jul 6, 11:55am Top

>106 johnthefireman: One MUST know the TRUTH....to know and understand what has come TRUE!

109Joansknight
Jul 6, 11:56am Top

>106 johnthefireman: If I was ABUSIVE....forgive me!

110johnthefireman
Jul 6, 11:57am Top

111Joansknight
Jul 6, 12:01pm Top

>110 johnthefireman: In a CATHOLIC context....it has come true!

113johnthefireman
Jul 8, 2:35am Top

From RIchard Rohr's daily meditation today:

A prophet is one who keeps God free for people and who keeps people free for God. Both of these are much needed and vital tasks. Without the educated gift of prophecy, God almost always becomes imprisoned and made inaccessible, and far too many people have been shamed and taught guilt to keep us clergy in business. We saw our job as “sin management.” That is not just being clever. I believe we religious leaders actually thought that. Sadly, the laity fully bought into this negative story line. That is what happens when priests are not informed by prophets.

The priestly class invariably makes God less accessible instead of more so, “neither entering yourselves nor letting others enter in,” as Jesus says (Matthew 23:13). For the sake of our own job security, the priestly message is often: “You can only come to God through us, by doing the right rituals, obeying the rules, and believing the right doctrines.” This is like telling God who God is allowed to love! The clergy and religious leaders, unintentionally perhaps, teach their disciples “learned helplessness.”

The prophets spend much of their time destroying and dismissing these barriers and trying to create “a straight highway to God” (Matthew 3:3). Both John the Baptist and Jesus tried to free God for the people, and it got them killed. The other half of the prophet’s job is to keep people free for God. We get trapped in chains of guilt and legalism, focusing on our imperfect church attendance and inability to live up to the law’s standard; as if the goal of religion is “attendance” at an occasional ritual instead of constant participation in an Eternal Mystery! Prophets turn our ideas of success and belonging on their head, emphasizing God’s unconditional and unmerited love in response to our continual shortcomings. God is always breaking the approved “rules of God” by forgiving sinners, choosing the outsider or the weak, and showing up in secular places. Please check the Bible if you doubt me!

Our job is to love others the way God has loved us. In my life, I’ve experienced God’s unearned love again and again. God has persistently broken the rules to love me at the level I needed, could receive, and was able to understand throughout my life. The magnanimous nature of divine love keeps liberating me at deeper levels, and then I think that newly discovered level of love is the deepest. But it’s a journey that never stops giving. Why wouldn’t everybody want that? But many actually fight it.

116johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 9, 3:49am Top

More on prohpecy from Richard Rohr today:

Prophets, by their very nature, cannot be at the center of any social structure. Rather, they are “on the edge of the inside.” They cannot be full insiders, but they cannot throw rocks from outside either. A true prophet must be educated inside the system, knowing and living the rules, before they can critique what is non-essential or not so important. Jesus did this masterfully (see Matthew 5:17-48). This is what Martin Luther King, Jr. taught the United States, what Gandhi taught British-occupied India, and what Nelson Mandela taught apartheid South Africa.

Only with great respect for and understanding of the rules can a prophet know how to properly break those very same rules—for the sake of a greater purpose and value. A prophet critiques a system by quoting its own documents, constitutions, heroes, and Scriptures against its present practice. This is their secret: systems are best unlocked from inside, and not by negative or angry people.

Holding the tension of opposites is the necessary education of the prophet, yet Christianity has given little energy to what Paul says is the second most important charism for building the church (1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11). Prophets must be skilled in nondual thinking, but churches have primarily trained people in the simplistic choosing of one idealized alternative while denigrating the other. This has gotten us nowhere.

After Christianity became the established religion of the Empire in the fourth century, the priestly mentality pretty much took over in both East and West, and prophets almost disappeared. When the Church held so much power, prophets were too threatening to the status quo. The clergy were at the top of the hierarchy in the full company of their patrons—kings and princes—and even began to dress like them. Emperors convened and presided over the first seven Councils of the Church. What does this tell us?

For the next 1700 or so years, most of the preaching and interpretation of Scripture was from the perspective of power, from primarily European, educated, quite comfortable, and presumably celibate males. I am one myself, and we are not all bad. But we are not all—by a long shot! Where are the voices of women, people of color, LGBTQ folk, the poor, and differently abled? How would they read the Gospel? Without these voices included, even central, I see little future for Christianity.

My spiritual father, St. Francis of Assisi, saw this problem in the thirteenth century and called people to live on the edge—of the Church, of the dominant economy which always protects the top, of patriarchy, of the “system”—through universal solidarity and chosen simplicity. Pope Francis is evoking the same Gospel spirit, and I pray for his success and protection. What a surprise that the ultimate establishment figure took the name of such a radical saint. It shocked the world because we do not expect prophecy from popes. There is hope!

117johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 11, 2:21am Top

Yet more on prophecy (it's the theme of his daily meditations this week) from Fr Richard Rohr, in today's reflection building on the work of Walter Brueggemann:

The task of prophetic ministry is to nurture, nourish, and evoke a consciousness and perception alternative to the consciousness and perception of the dominant culture around us. . . .

The alternative consciousness to be nurtured, on the one hand, serves to criticize in dismantling the dominant consciousness. To that extent, it attempts to do what the liberal tendency has done: engage in a rejection and delegitimizing of the present ordering of things. On the other hand, that alternative consciousness to be nurtured serves to energize persons and communities by its promise of another time and situation toward which the community of faith may move. To that extent, it attempts to do what the conservative tendency has done, to live in fervent anticipation of the newness that God has promised and will surely give. . . .

Our sociology is predictably derived from, legitimated by, and reflective of our theology. And if we gather around a static god of order who only guards the interests of the “haves,” oppression cannot be far behind. Conversely, if a God is disclosed who is free to come and go, free from and even against the regime, free to hear and even answer slave cries, free from all proper goodness as defined by the empire, then it will bear decisively upon sociology because the freedom of God will surface in the brickyards and manifest itself as justice and compassion. . . .

Here is it enough to insist that Moses, paradigm for prophet, carried the alternative in both directions: a religion of God’s freedom as alternative to the static imperial religion of order and triumph and a politics of justice and compassion as alternative to the imperial politics of oppression. The point that prophetic imagination must ponder is that there is no freedom of God without the politics of justice and compassion, and there is no politics of justice and compassion without a religion of the freedom of God.

The prophet does not ask if the vision can be implemented, for questions of implementation are of no consequence until the vision can be imagined. The imagination must come before the implementation. Our culture is competent to implement almost anything and to imagine almost nothing. The same royal consciousness that makes it possible to implement anything and everything is the one that shrinks imagination because imagination is a danger. Thus every totalitarian regime is frightened of the artist. It is the vocation of the prophet to keep alive the ministry of imagination, to keep on conjuring and proposing futures alternative to the single one the king wants to urge as the only thinkable one. . . .


I think this demonstrates to some extent why Joansknight's constant reference to following the "ways of MAN" is misguided. As Rohr says, "The task of prophetic ministry is to nurture, nourish, and evoke a consciousness and perception alternative to the consciousness and perception of the dominant culture around us", in other words, to challenge the dominant paradigms of the world, which I believe is what Joansknight refers to as the "ways of MAN". Christianity stands as counter-cultural, at least in intent, although we need to recognise that the institutions of the Church often become part of or collude with the establishment, which is why we still need prophets, whether they be the old Francis of Assisi (and his followers such as Richard Rohr) or the new Francis, the pope.

118Joansknight
Jul 12, 11:29am Top

>117 johnthefireman: Sorry to share another prophesy....Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

119johnthefireman
Jul 12, 3:06pm Top

>118 Joansknight:

Indeed. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us.

120Joansknight
Jul 12, 5:48pm Top

>119 johnthefireman: You confuse me....you know that!?!?

121johnthefireman
Jul 13, 12:30am Top

>120 Joansknight:

Why so surprised? You quote many texts from the Christian Tradition and of course I know them. I respond with one of the basic foundations of Christianity, and you are surprised?

122johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 14, 4:21am Top

Pope Francis the prophet...

Francis continues to make us all a bit uncomfortable (La Croix International)

No matter where you place yourself along the Catholic Church's broad spectrum – right, left or center; conservative or liberal; traditional or progressive – if you are not challenged and even disturbed by some of the things this pope says and does, then you are not paying attention. And that includes any of you who may consider yourselves "Pope Francis groupies" or "my-pope-right-or-wrong" Catholics. If he is not getting just a little bit under your skin then you are not listening, either. Despite what some of his more traditionalist critics claim, Francis is not politically correct. He is, in fact, quite out-spoken. He is prophetic. That is because he is, without a doubt, one of the most radically evangelical popes the Church has ever seen...

123johnthefireman
Jul 14, 4:27am Top

>118 Joansknight:, >119 johnthefireman:

Coincidentally (or serendipitously?) Richard Rohr's reflection for today touches on the incarnation, which is central to Christianity:

Years ago, someone asked if I could sum up all my teachings in two words. My response was “incarnational mysticism.” The first word, “incarnational,” is Christianity’s specialty and should always be our essential theme. We believe God became embodied. The early Fathers of the Church professed that God, by taking on human flesh, said yes to all that was physical, material, and earthly. Unfortunately, much of Christianity lost this full understanding.

Many Christians are scared of the word “mysticism.” But a mystic is simply one who has moved from mere belief or belonging systems to actual inner experience of God. Mysticism is more represented in John’s Gospel than in the three Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) which give us the basic story line of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. So many readers are not moved by or attracted to John’s Gospel because they were never taught the mystical mind.

In the early 1960s, Karl Rahner (1904–1984), a German Jesuit who strongly influenced the Second Vatican Council, stated that if Western Christianity does not discover its mystical foundations and roots, we might as well close the church doors. I believe he was right. Without a contemplative mind, Christianity can’t offer broad seeing, real alternative consciousness, or a new kind of humanity. Jesus was the first clear nondual mystic in the West, in my opinion. We just were not prepared for his way of knowing and loving...

Until people have had some mystical, inner spiritual experience, there is no point in asking them to follow the ethical ideals of Jesus or to really understand religious beliefs beyond the level of formula. At most, such moral ideals and doctrinal affirmations are only a source of deeper anxiety because we don’t have the power to follow any of Jesus’ major teachings about forgiveness, love of enemies, nonviolence, humble use of power, a simple lifestyle, and so on, except in and through radical union with God. Further, doctrines like the Trinity, the Real Presence, and the significance of the Indwelling Spirit have little active power. They are just “believed” at the rational level, but never experienced.

124johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 15, 2:27am Top

When I use the word “mystical” I am referring to experiential knowing instead of just intellectual, textbook, or dogmatic knowing. A mystic sees things in their wholeness, connection, and union, not only their particularity.

Richard Rohr, link

God was consistent in working through one {human} to reveal {Godself} everywhere, as well as through the other parts of . . . creation, so that nothing was left devoid of . . . Divinity and {God’s} self-knowledge . . . so that “the whole universe was filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters fill the sea.” (Isaiah 11:9)

Saint Athanasius (296–373), the “Father of Orthodoxy”, De Incarnatione Verbi (On the Incarnation of the Word), 45.

“He has given us something very great and wonderful . . . you are able to share the divine nature!” (2 Peter 1:4)

125Joansknight
Edited: Jul 15, 8:35am Top

>121 johnthefireman: Surprised you approve of a prophesy!?

126Joansknight
Edited: Jul 15, 8:34am Top

>122 johnthefireman: He is AN APOSTATE & HERETIC!

127johnthefireman
Jul 15, 9:47am Top

>125 Joansknight:

Have you been listening when I explained what prophecy is? Of course I approve of it; it's part of Church Tradition. But I try to understand it as the Church understands it, not as a Delphic oracle nor the predictions of Macbeth's three witches.

128Joansknight
Jul 15, 9:51am Top

>127 johnthefireman: Prophesies come from God....St. Jeanne made many predictions that came to fulfillment!

129Joansknight
Jul 15, 9:54am Top

>127 johnthefireman: You are NOT a follower of the Catholic Church though....forgive me....if I am being abusive....I am NOT attacking you personally!

130MyopicBookworm
Jul 15, 5:46pm Top

If John is not a follower of the Catholic Church, then the Catholic Church no longer exists, if it ever did.

"Unlike republics of human institution, or the conventicles of heretics, she is not circumscribed within the limits of any one kingdom, nor confined to the members of any one society of men, but embraces within the amplitude of her love, all mankind, whether barbarians or Scythians, slaves or freemen, male or female."

I don't agree with much in the self-aggrandizing and pompous Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566), but this bit, at least, seems reasonable. Of course, as a non-Roman I would extend the borders of the Church far beyond the followers of the Bishop of Rome (or indeed of the self-styled Christian religion), but to restrict it to some ultra-Tridentine conventicle is absurd.

You are abusive. You abuse Christ. But I am sure he is used to it, and will forgive you.

131Joansknight
Jul 15, 6:20pm Top

>130 MyopicBookworm: God bless you....may He have mercy on your soul....

132johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 16, 2:07am Top

Joansknight, as a matter of interest, were you a Catholic before you decided to follow the Sedevacante persuasion, or did you come from some other tradition straight into Sedevacante? In other words, do you have any direct personal experience and knowledge of the Catholic Church which on the one hand you dismiss as heretical and on the other hand claim to be part of a tiny remnant of "true" Catholics?

Edited to add a supplementary question: if you were a Catholic before you became a Sedevacantist, are you old enough to remember and to have experienced the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church, as I did, or is all your knowledge of it secondhand?

133johnthefireman
Jul 15, 11:34pm Top

>130 MyopicBookworm:

Thanks for that little gem from Trent. Worth remembering also that in the Nicene and Apostles Creeds the word "catholic" is spelt with a small "c", meaning "universal".

134Joansknight
Jul 16, 9:50am Top

St. Alphonsus (c. 1755): “Sacred Scripture enumerates a number of other torments which will afflict the damned besides hellfire. One of these is the ‘worm,’ to which the Scriptures refer frequently… most theologians explain it metaphorically as the remorse of conscience which will afflict the damned in the fire and darkness of hell. Forever will they have imprinted on their memories the results of their sins; forever will they repeat the words ascribed to the damned in the book of Wisdom: ‘We have erred from the way of truth, we wearied ourselves in the way of iniquity and destruction and have walked through hard ways. What hath pride profited us? Or what advantage hath the boasting of riches brought us?... Such as these the sinners said in hell’ (Wisdom 5:6-14).”

135johnthefireman
Jul 16, 10:38am Top

>135 johnthefireman:

Note the use of metaphor by St Alphonsus. He is not speaking literally about worms.

Any response to >132 johnthefireman:?

136Joansknight
Jul 16, 10:43am Top

>132 johnthefireman: I am NOT rehashing a conversation we had a long time ago....I am Catholic....I am Sedevacante....because I believe the Chair of St. Peter has been unoccupied since 1958!

137Joansknight
Jul 16, 10:46am Top

>133 johnthefireman: Only a HERETIC would be in opposition of the Council of Trent....

138johnthefireman
Jul 16, 10:46am Top

>136 Joansknight:

You're not answering my question.

139Joansknight
Jul 16, 10:49am Top

>138 johnthefireman: I was raised in the NOVUS ORDO sect....like you....I believed in it....than God showed me I was in error!

140johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 16, 11:21am Top

>139 Joansknight:

So you were a Catholic before you became Sedevacante, but you don't remember the pre-Vatican II Church. I was raised in that pre-Vatican II Church.

You really seem to know very little about the Catholic Church as it was then and as it is now.

141Joansknight
Jul 16, 11:24am Top

>140 johnthefireman: If you say so....but you do NOT even know me....I was born in '62....the disease was already infesting the Church....long before I was born!

142johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 18, 9:57am Top

>141 Joansknight: you do NOT even know me

True. I know only what you post. You post a very distorted and inaccurate picture of the Catholic Church, which is what prompts me to say that "you seem to know very little about the Catholic Church as it was then and as it is now". You post out-of-context quotes from Catholic Tradition which I have no problem with per se as they are part of our Tradition but you usually post no commentary to explain why you interpret them differently from the Catholic Church; you post links from one single website (while I acknowledge that I have recently posted a few links from Richard Rohr, I would suggest that this is not the only source I link to, and I do so only because it comes easily to hand); you do not engage in theological conversations but only soundbites and slogans, usually abusive. So forgive me if the only things I know about you are what I glean from your postings.

the disease was already infesting the Church....long before I was born!

Hm. I thought you traced the root of the "disease" to 1958, which is only four years before you were born, not "long" in the two millennia of the Church. But you're right in one sense, that it was the post-Trent period which allowed many of the problems to gestate, it was Vatican II which attempted to resolve them through reform, and it was the post-Vatican II Church which had to grapple with the fall-out from these problems. You constantly refer to the priestly sexual abuse issue - this had been going on for decades (if not centuries) in the pre-Vatican II Church and it was the post-Vatican II Church which has finally faced up to it and tried to deal with it.

143Joansknight
Jul 19, 12:46pm Top

>142 johnthefireman: You will be happy to know....I am NOT going to continue this thread....it is a waste of my time and energy....HERETICS have no desire to know the TRUTH....they choose to be deceived by Satan and to follow the DOCTRINES of society and man....I will continue to pray for your soul....and the souls of all HERETICS! St. Jerome (390): “God made us with free-will, neither are we drawn by necessity to virtue or vice; else where there is necessity and not free-will, there is neither damnation nor reward.”

146Joansknight
Edited: Jul 20, 10:47am Top

>142 johnthefireman: How many reasons do you need....62 reasons are NOT enough for you....I am certain you did NOT even read them!?!?

147Joansknight
Jul 20, 12:54pm Top

>142 johnthefireman: I know 62 reasons are NOT enough....for you or any other HERETIC to believe in the TRUTH....ONLY one reason should suffice....that reason being CHRIST....not even HE is....I am done....you may rejoice now!

148johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 20, 4:38pm Top

>145 Joansknight:

This rather muddled discourse on the rites of mass is not convincing. As you and your learned friends are surely aware, for most of the history of the Church there were many different rites. It's nigh on 40 years since I studied liturgy but names such as Gallic, Syriac, Sarum and Ambrosian are right up there alongside the Roman rite, to say nothing of Eastern Rite Catholics. It was the Council of Trent which attempted to eradicate much of the diversity, and it is really only during the last four hundred years that there has been such a concentration on a single rite, the Tridentine rite. That's only about 20% of the lifespan of the Church, and it's relatively recent. Vatican II's broadening of the available rites is in fact a return to Tradition. There is not and never has been a single "unchangeable Mass of All Ages".

Incidentally, as you are also well aware, the Tridentine mass is not banned, it is simply not used as the normative rite for ordinary Sunday worship.

I find it strange to hear Latin described as "the Mother tongue of the Church". While Latin is an important language for the Church, "Mother tongue" implies original language. Surely Latin did not become the language of the Church until a good three hundred years after the foundation of the Church? The "Mother tongues" (ie original languages) of the Church were surely Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew?

149johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 20, 4:29pm Top

>144 Joansknight:

So an individual resident in or visiting the Vatican State committed the sin of murder? And the murder is still unsolved? What has that got to do with whether the Catholic Church is heretical or not? Bear in mind that sin is not the same as heresy.

150johnthefireman
Jul 20, 4:37pm Top

>147 Joansknight: believe in the TRUTH....ONLY one reason should suffice....that reason being CHRIST

I can't disagree with that statement. Now, I give you and your handful of Sedevacate co-travellers the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have sincerely and prayerfully tried to discern the truth of Christ, even though you have come to a different conclusion than me. Why can you not offer the same courtesy to me and the millions of other Catholics, including popes, bishops, theologians, priests, pastors, monks, nuns and laity, and assume that we too have sincerely and prayerfully tried to discern the truth of Christ, even though we have come up with a different conclusion than you?

Your faith appears very negative, exclusionary, limited, condemnatory and, frankly, uncharitable. I, on the other hand, belong to a Church which I believe tries to be positive, welcoming, inclusive, universal (catholic with a small "c") and charitable.

151johnthefireman
Jul 21, 8:39am Top

>150 johnthefireman:

A beautiful reflection on the truth of the Christ:

All sorts of people jostled together, sitting and strap-hanging—workers of every description going home at the end of the day. Quite suddenly I saw with my mind, but as vividly as a wonderful picture, Christ in them all. But I saw more than that; not only was Christ in every one of them, living in them, dying in them, rejoicing in them, sorrowing in them—but because He was in them, and because they were here, the whole world was here too . . . all those people who had lived in the past, and all those yet to come.

I came out into the street and walked for a long time in the crowds. It was the same here, on every side, in every passer-by, everywhere—Christ.

I had long been haunted by the Russian conception of the humiliated Christ, the lame Christ limping through Russia, begging His bread; the Christ who, all through the ages, might return to the earth and come even to sinners to win their compassion by His need. Now, in the flash of a second, I knew that this dream is a fact . . . Christ in {humankind}. . . .

I saw too the reverence that everyone must have for a sinner; instead of condoning his {or her} sin, which is in reality {their} utmost sorrow, one must comfort Christ who is suffering in {them}. And this reverence must be paid even to those sinners whose souls seem to be dead, because it is Christ, who is the life of the soul, who is dead in them; they are His tombs, and Christ in the tomb is potentially the risen Christ. . . .

Christ is everywhere; in Him every kind of life has a meaning and has an influence on every other kind of life. . . . Realization of our oneness in Christ is the only cure for human loneliness. For me, too, it is the only ultimate meaning of life, the only thing that gives meaning and purpose to every life.

After a few days the “vision” faded. People looked the same again, there was no longer the same shock of insight for me each time I was face to face with another human being. Christ was hidden again; indeed, through the years to come I would have to seek for Him, and usually I would find Him in others—and still more in myself—only through a deliberate and blind act of faith.


Caryll Houselander, A Rocking-Horse Catholic (Sheed and Ward: 1955), pp 137-140

152Joansknight
Jul 21, 9:46am Top

Heresy is a SIN John! The VII SECT'S "Latin Mass" is INVALID....it is said by an INVALIDLY ORDAINED "priest"....it is ONLY allowed to DECEIVE!

153Joansknight
Jul 21, 11:05am Top

>151 johnthefireman: with 1.3 billion "Catholics"....I am sure your church was jammed-packed for "mass" this morning!?!?

154Joansknight
Jul 21, 11:45am Top

>151 johnthefireman: Either way....you so-called "Catholics"....all 1.3 billion....are ONLY that way on Sundays....when you fill your churches and pretend to be devout!

155johnthefireman
Jul 21, 1:41pm Top

I notice you have not engaged with any of the points I raised.

>152 Joansknight:

Yes, heresy is a sin, but all sin is not heresy. Murder is a sin, but it is not a heresy.

156Joansknight
Jul 21, 4:57pm Top

>155 johnthefireman: Apparently....the VII APOSTASY not only molests children....they also murder their victims!

157johnthefireman
Edited: Jul 21, 5:03pm Top

>156 Joansknight:

And I ask again, what has a murder to do with heresy? It is unsolved, so we have no idea who if anyone committed the murder which happened to take place in the Vatican State, just as many murders take place in any other state. Indeed at this point we don't even know if a murder was committed, or whether the missing person is missing for other reasons.

Might I add that someone who was adult enough to commit a murder and hide the body in 1983 was, like me, for example, almost certainly formed by the pre-Vatican II Church, since Vatican II only finished in 1965 and it was a number of years before its impact started to be felt.

158Joansknight
Jul 21, 5:04pm Top

>157 johnthefireman: Keep telling yourself that....I am sure Francis will assure you and the 1.3 billion faithful....that no sin was committed!

159Joansknight
Jul 21, 5:05pm Top

>157 johnthefireman: Was your church packed this morning....you are also good at avoiding questions!?!?

160johnthefireman
Jul 21, 5:06pm Top

>157 johnthefireman:

You really are not reading or not comprehending anything I write. I have said constantly that murder is a sin. However murder is not heresy.

161johnthefireman
Jul 21, 5:07pm Top

>159 Joansknight:

No, not packed, but well attended.

162Joansknight
Edited: Jul 21, 5:12pm Top

>161 johnthefireman: Social time for many....the sooner they get in....the sooner they get out too....I attended a "mass" once....it took the "priest" 45 minutes....he had to watch a college football game!

163johnthefireman
Jul 21, 5:13pm Top

>162 Joansknight:

Well, that was certainly true of the pre-Vatican II Church as I remember it!

164Joansknight
Jul 21, 5:19pm Top

>163 johnthefireman: I am glad you have an excuse for all your false religion does....apparently you approve of all it does....I am done now John....FINISHED! God bless you and may He have mercy on your soul! Respond if you like....I will not return....I am done! Heretics are much too taxing!

THE END!

165johnthefireman
Jul 21, 5:30pm Top

>164 Joansknight:

Excuse? Approve? No, just giving you facts. As I have said before, you don't actually seem to know much about either the pre-Vatican II Church which you idolise nor the post-Vatican II Church which you accuse of heresy. But then that's true of most conspiracy theorists. Educate yourself, my friend, with real facts from the real world, not with the self-reinforcing fantasies of a small clique.

166Joansknight
Jul 22, 10:18am Top

>165 johnthefireman: Were you a real firefighter? My sister was a firefighter....she even fought forest fires!

167johnthefireman
Jul 22, 5:18pm Top

>166 Joansknight:

No, it's fireman, not firefighter. I have worked as a fireman, shovelling coal into the firebox of steam railway locomotives.

168Joansknight
Jul 23, 9:26am Top

>167 johnthefireman: Sorry....when I was a child....I had to ride the train many times!

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