Hello everyone, I'm starting the thread for the last part of Finn.

I haven't really started the last bit yet, but last week I plowed straight through to Chapter 13.

This thread contains spoilers for Finn Chapters 13-24

Finn's intentions (which I assume will later be made clear) towards the drowned boy's mother in Chapter 13 left me particularly curious. Is this just the next pretty black women he has set his sight on or does the cruel Finn actually feel sorry for the woman?

It was an interesting point to leave the book, so I'm going to go jump back in.

A personal note: I may end up experiencing an unplanned week without internet access. Hopefully, this is not the case, but if it is, I just wanted to let you all know that I haven't disappeared. If that does end up happening, I know I'll have a lively discussion to read through when I return.

Message edited by its author, Jul 21, 2008, 10:39am.

I'm ready for chapter 18, trying to slow myself down and not rush the ending. Things are beginning to fall into place.

My thoughts, after reading chapter 13, were that he must have a "thing" for black women - he was a perfect gentleman with the white woman who fed him on his way home from prison and didn't seem tempted even when she came on to him.

More later.

Had a few spare minutes and thought I'd read another chapter or two, but ended up finishing the book. I'm a little stunned, speechless. I don't know what to think, either. I think this evening I'm going to try to put together a time line - the time jumping thing still bothers me, and it seemed especially bad in this last section. Am very anxious to hear everyone else's thoughts.

I put together a time-line (below). At least this is how I think it goes. As I was doing this, it occured to me that Finn didn't meet the laundress until after Mary was dead. And now I understand why he did the time jumping - there really isn't that much plot action, the suspense of not knowing how events fit together is the hook that keeps us reading. It also occured to me that Finn was one sick puppy (especially chapter 23). My take on the book as a whole: I didn't like Finn or any of the things he did. (I know, I wasn't supposed to.) Clinch did a fine job making Finn unlikable. I've never read Huckleberry Finn all the way through, so I missed every one of the plot tie-in's that he talked about in the author's note. I wish, now, that I'd read it before this. I like his idea of tying into an existing story, and I think it was well-done. He certainly didn't try to copy anything Twain had done. I don't have a problem with any of the liberties he admits to taking. I'd certainly be willing to read something else by this author, but it had better be a better story than this one! I guess I like this book, but not this story - does that make sense?

Chapter Event

7 Collision with steamboat - Huck meets Mary and takes her to cabin behind Judge's house
9 Mary cooks, cleans and washes in the hired man cabin - kept locked in (early days)
9 "Weeks" later, Mary is seen at Judge's cabin
9 Judge breaks into cabin to find them together in bed - summer
9 Will finds riverfront house for them - winter

11 "In time, Mary conceives"
11 Huck is born, Will sends acknowledgment
11 Judge asks Will to change his will to leave one dollar to the father, but won't acknowledge the son

12 When Huck is 5 or 6, man in tavern is beaten for insulting "his kind"
12 Arrested for assault, Judge sends him to prison

12 After prison, spends money in tavern, then chops wood for white woman in exchange for meal
12 Has tender words for Mary upon arriving home
14 George comes around house, Mary explains he helped out during the prison term
14 Mary tells about taking in the hotel laundry during the prison term, Dixon won't extend more credit when her money runs out
14 Sells large catch of fish, discovers Mary's tab in the darktown store, has no money left for whiskey
14 Goes to Bliss for first time
14 Strikes Mary with water dipper
16 Huck sees bandage on Mary's face
16 Goes to see Will, tells him that Judge was right about that woman

16 Year or more later, when food runs out, Mary takes Huck and leaves - they end up in St Petersburg at Widow Douglas' house
16 Return home to discover woman and child have gone
16 Next day, searches for woman and boy
16 Mary and Widow Douglas begin to reach understanding
16 Meets up w/ Judge and Mother in hotel, is introduced to Mr Whitfield
16 Takes Whitfield on the rounds to Dixon then Bliss, where Whitfield is shot for an intruder
16 Returns Whitfield to the Judge's house where he dies on the porch before morning
17 Mary tells Huck that he is to pretend he has no mother
17 Mary tells Widow Douglas about her injuries - Huck goes to school - autumn

17 Wanders to St Petersburg and sees Huck on his way to school - tells him that his mother died in childbirth - winter
17 Goes to see Mary, tells her the story he told Huck

17 Months pass and Mary still haunts him - begins spying on her

19 Mary turns down Widow Douglas' offer to keep her on as a slave - tells the widow that she is not Huck's mother - spring
19 Goes to see Mary and takes her back to Lasseter - "as the months pass...her good fortune will come to its natural end."

21 He resents her for coming back "into his house into his heart into his bed" - misses Huck

23 Thinking of Whitfield dying, blaming the Judge, and blaming her, he "goes stealthily within upon his errand"

1 Body of woman found - late summer
1 Shaes "fatback" w/ Bliss - states was w/ that woman 10-12 years, 15 on and off
1 Paints bedroom walls - day after body found
1 Catches black boys stealing fish
2 Notices black woman w/ son - wonders if same boy as w/ fish - thinks about her again later

4 Huck finds money
4 Hides in Huck's room to ask about money - winter
4 Meets w/ Judge Thatcher, learns Huck's money out of reach
4 Remembers skinning body while sitting in St Petersburg
6 Meets black professor in St Petersburg
6 Arrested for drunkeness in St Petersburg, meets Judge Stone - talks about body found in river - winter

6 Goes back to Huck's room and takes him away
6 Huck held prisoner in cabin near St Petersburg- spring
6 Huck escapes from cabin by staging kidnapping
8 Returns to house after Huck disappeared from cabin, begins marking on white walls
10 Installs door at bottom of bedroom stairs, still free of that woman, but hasn't seen Will yet, talks of Huck's money

8 Meets "preacher" - kidnaps boy - rape and murder - next day puts (first?) drawings of event on wall

2 Tells Will to tell Judge that he broke off w/ that woman - winter

10 Weeks or months after talking to Will, goes to see Judge, ends up telling Mother he broke off w/ that woman
10 Same day, sees black woman coming from Adams hotel w/ laundry and remembers preacher, returns home to draw on wall re: his urges

13 Takes his laundry to the woman
13 Goes to see the Judge, tells him he broke off w/ that woman
13 Returns to claim his laundry, fixes her door hinge

15 Goes back to laundress, she tells him about husband and son

18 Dreams of both women, tries to illustrate dream on wall of bedroom, then goes to see laundress - she feeds him and he imagines her in his house

18 Riverboat fire sends boat out of control into piling underneath house

20 Will goes to the house, sees the drawings on the walls and fetches him to the Judge
20 Judge wants Huck, now aged 10-11 years, to be killed - he admits to killing the woman, Judge asks for proof in exchange for more time for the boy

22 Fetches the laundress to come back home for supper - sees the Judge greeting new lawyer at boat dock
24 Judge sees him with a woman, thinks it is the same woman
24 Takes the laundress home, sees the knife in the kitchen and thinks about using it only for secondary work, as before
24 Afterward, she recognizes her son's hat, discerns the meaning of the pictures, and finds a pistol in the trunk
24 Judge goes out to the house, expecting to see two in bed, but finds his son alone with a bullet in his back
24 Judge attaches rope to remaining pilings and pulls them down. House sinks into water.

SPOILERS:
sjmccreary- I have to say I agree with you on several points. I enjoyed the story and kept reading to find out how it was all pieced together. It was driving me crazy during reading, and I'm still kind of trying to piece things together two days after finishing it.

It makes sense now that he went to the laundress after he killed Mary ...
a) because he needed to find another black woman to prove to his father he killed her
b)to have his laundry done :)
c)....because he did have a fetish (right word?) for black women.

I absolutley love how he ended the book, I was glad to see justice brought on to both Finn and the Judge. Then Huck finding the house floating down the river and not even considering the body in it was just icing on the cake. I just wish Finn would have suffered a little more (I know I'm horrible)

Questions:
So the bacon he fed to Bliss, was that really Mary? In the begining of the book it talks about Huck coming back to his father from the widows house, to me it seemed he was quite a bit older when that happened. So did Finn wait awhile before he killed Mary/took Huck back/talked to the laundress/was called on by the Judge?

It seems so obvious since you said it, but it never occured to me that he wanted to kill the laundress as proof for his father! I couldn't figure out why he wanted to kill her, and was worried while I was reading that it was she who died instead of Mary.

I also didn't think about the ending in terms of Finn getting what he deserved - but I wished I had, I like it better with that mind-set. Tell more about the justice that the Judge received - it seems to me that nothing happened to him, except he was robbed of the chance to kill Finn himself.

The timing of everything was making me crazy - that is why I attempted the time line in #4, above. I'm not sure I got it right, but it looks like Huck would have been about 10-12 years old when he left the Widow's house to go with Finn.

I'm anxious to hear what everyone else thinks of the book - this is one that doesn't just go away when you finish reading.

So I've had a few days to digest (plus, I wrote a really long comment last night that LT ate and that made me too irritated to type up another one, so I decided to reflect) and I think overall that I liked the book. A lot, actually.

beckylynn - pretty sure that was Mary that Finn fed Bliss.

The whole "why Finn killed Mary" thing still bothers me. I still don't understand what made Finn do it. My best interpretation is that it was because when Finn was away Mary took charity from a black guy (which hello! who else is she supposed to get help from?) and then Finn had to deal with the apparently horrible shame of being indebted to a black person. Is that it? Am I missing something? Clinch had been leading us down the "oh, Finn actually does have a human side he 'loves' his family as much as it's possible for him to love anything" and then THAT is what makes him decide to murder Mary? That, plus being drunk all the time? Not a satisfying explanation.

And oh, poor Mary. What a horrible choice - stay in MO with her son (who no longer considers her to be his mother - Finn is a jackass) but be a slave, or go back to IL and live with Finn.

God, I hate the Judge. I hate him more than I hate Finn. At least Finn is a widely-known dirtbag, while the Judge is this filthy hypocrite. High social standing, respect from the community, and he's all "go kill Huck".

I'm so glad that the laundress got to kill Finn - poetic justice right there! I knew that it was a bad idea for Finn to draw out the kid's murder on the wall. Like beckylynn, I totally saw it as Finn getting what was coming to him.

The scene with the drunken lawyer. Why? What was the point of that? More of the conflict between Finn and the Judge?

sjmmcreary, I agree that I'd love to read something else by this author. This is only book though, yeah?

I'm firmly in the love Clinch's work camp. This was his first novel, so as of right now it's his only published book. I would imagine there will be more in the future.

First, thanks smjccreary, for that timeline. Even at the end of the novel, I was still finding myself somewhat confused.

It was interesting for me to see how Clinch resolved the initial conflicts I noticed with Huck Finn. In some ways it makes perfect sense that both Finn and Mary would have told Finn that lie, albeit for very different reasons. I definitely want go back to Huck Finn and see how the two stories intertwine.

There was a moment or so when Mary decides to go back to Finn that I was incredulous. It seemed unfathomable that she would choose to go back to him. Until I thought that plenty of women who don't have to choose between being someone else's property or an abusive relationship, still choose the abusive relationship. It actually made me angry with her. Obviously, there's no way I can know what the indignities of being owned, by however benevolent a master, are, but still! Even though she didn't know that going back to Finn was going to get her killed, she had to have known it was a possibility.

As for her actual murder, it almost felt as if Clinch wasn't certain why Finn killed her. I had assumed that Finn would kill her accidentally in a drunken rage, so I was surprised when it was intentional. And with what seemed to be little reasoning behind it.

I agree with jfetting that, in the end, it was the Judge I ended up hating most. Not just because of the hypocrisy she mentioned, but because he just seemed to be the embodiment of hatred and evilness. At least with Finn, it was somewhat easy to understand why he was the way he was. He was an alcoholic and it's not surprising that over the years all the drinking would turn him into a violent shell of a man with little care for anything but getting his next drink. That's the natural course of addiction. While I rarely felt sorry for Finn, I at least understood his character. But the Judge has no such excuse. He's just an unapologetic racist, hateful man. At least at the end there is an indication that Finn did feel love for Huck - at least enough to try to save him from murder at his father's hands.

It was strange to me though, that at the end Finn started to seem like a serial killer to me. Especially before I realized he wanted to kill the laundress as evidence for the Judge. I thought up until he mentions the knife as a secondary implement, that he intended to seduce her and live with her as he did with Mary, only out of self-hatred or something else to kill her, too. I'm glad though, that she realized who he was before it was too late.

As for the Judge, I don't feel he got his comeuppance at all. Sure, he didn't get to kill Huck himself, but surely he deserves some punishment much worse than that. Something cruel and unusual.

I think I'm going to try and write up a review of the novel. I'll post a link to it here when I'm done with it.

Just finished this very disturbing yet strangely appealing book. I will absolutely read more books by the gifted Clinch. I just hope he chooses less grisly events to write about.

--> 2. Indeed, Finn seems to have a "thing" for black women...kind of a conflicting love/hate relationship, thanks in part to dear ol' dad's influence.

--> 3. Yes, this book was stunning in the sense that one feels dazed and confused during and after reading it. The most recent book I've read that left me feeling this way was The Road by C. McCarthy. As others have stated, I detested the subject matter but was drawn in by Clinch's writing and creativity.

--> 4. Wow, this was so helpful, Sandy, in making more sense of the order of events. I was getting dizzy going back and forth in time as I was reading. Thank you for putting the effort into clarifying things for the group.

--> 5. Finn, Bliss (love the irony in that name), and eating "bacon" around the campfire. Now that is a scene that will stay with me a long time. It also made me give up reading the book in disgust, but I'm so glad I stuck with it.

As I said earlier, I just finished the book this afternoon. I am likewise mulling over why on earth Finn felt he had to kill Mary. My initial reaction was it had something to do with growing up in a loveless household. I'm thinking much of his lust for black women was a way of getting even with the Judge, and perhaps a part of him just wants to do anything to break down that barrier and earn his father's love. Clinch may have to delve back further into Finn's life and upbringing in a future book to clear up some murky waters.

About why Finn felt he needed to kill Mary - I agree with jfetting that it seems to have started when he found out she accepted help from the black men while he was in prison. Do you suppose he suspected her of being unfaithful? There are lots of examples in fiction and real life both of men going off the deep end when they suspect infidelity. I also think that is when he began buying the rutgut from Bliss and wonder if that whiskey wasn't toxic enough to mess up his already unstable mind - he never seemed violent until then. We need a psychologist in here to sort out the father issues - I doubt we sane people are able to understand how such an insane mind really sees things.

Donna, I'm looking forward to reading Clinch again, but I'll think twice if he comes out with another Finn story - eww!

I hate to let this discussion go...

Did anyone else have a favorite part? Or, to put it another way, an especially affecting passage?

The part that hooked me and let me see a glimpse of humanity in Finn begins on page 135. He is drinking as usual, drops his glass and licks up the spilled whiskey along with slivers of wood and shards of glass. Then he finds the baby bottle. Somehow the image of Huck's dusty bottle that Pap sticks in his pocket really got to me. The mention of the hallowed upstairs chest that holds the preacher's gun as his limbo and purgatory convinced me that Pap does have a soul however deeply hidden.

I like Finn's return from prison, right up until he realizes he has to repay the black guy for helping Mary out. The scene where he helps out the white woman in exchange for food (while turning down any other form of repayment) surprised me. I had spent a good part of the beginning of the book convinced that any character that Finn met would be beaten or murdered or enslaved, and then off he goes having perfectly normal interactions. When he and Mary and Huck are reunited, I was actually happy for him. Then, of course, it all goes to pieces.

I also found the parts with Mary and Finn when Mary was at Widow Douglas's house moving. She's safe, and Huck is safe, but she knows that it can't last and I feel so bad for her. Actually, I think it's safe to say that most of the parts where we seem to get an idea of what is in Mary's head are pretty moving.

Yes, I did so want Mary to stay with the Widow Douglas, but then I guess there wouldn't have been much of a story. It's just hard to imagine her turmoil. As Clinch stated, she had the choice to return to Finn "the devil she knows" or some sorry alternatives. I think it was the selfless mother in her that left Huck with the Widow D. so that he would have the chance to pass for white. The whole mulatto twist was an interesting development. It sounds plausible, but I wonder what Mark Twain would be thinking?

"What Mark Twain would be thinking?"

We haven't really addressed this question much, have we? For some reason, I am certain that Twain would've approved of Finn.

Sure, Twain could be a cantankerous man, but I think he would've admired Clinch's creativity and ability to keep Twain's creation in tact. That said, you imagine that when Twain was writing Huckleberry Finn he probably had his own back story. And unless Clinch has some psychic connection to Twain, it was probably a different one. Still I think they would've agreed to disagree.

I think part of the reason Clinch succeeded with Finn was that he didn't try to be Twain. He writes with his own style and voice, but remains true to the world Twain created. It's a fine line to walk, but I think he did it wonderfully.

I'm in total agreement on both points: Mark Twain would have approved of and maybe even delighted in Clinch's Finn..., and Clinch's style was unique and genuine. I touched on that in my review on my profile page.

I can't help wondering what Clinch's next book will be about. He is truly a gifted writer in my opinion.

The parts I enjoyed the most were those that focused on either of the two women. Finn was such a sorry, despecable character that I felt it was a relief to spend time with someone warm and caring. I liked the way Finn acted when he got home from prison, until his reaction to George, etc. But, if he had really turned over a new leaf here, it wouldn't have been much of a story, as Donna said. The parts that creeped me out the most were when he was drawing on the walls. I enjoy reading mysteries and thrillers, and in those stories only the worst bad guys do this sort of thing, and it always ends up being their downfall - the "trophies" from their "adventures" that they cannot deny themselves. It should be a comfort, I guess, that I just do not understand why anyone would do such things.

I'm still curious what beckylynn was thinking in post #5 when she refered to the justice being delivered to both Finn and the Judge. Finn, I understand. What justice does she see being meted out to the Judge?

I think Clinch is an amazing writer, and I'll be sure to read his next book. But I didn't like this story very much. (I admit to being a sucker for happy endings!) I don't think Finn's story is one we were really meant to take pleasure from, which just provides more evidence of Clinch's talent and skill. This book is one of the rare ones that stay with you a long time after the last page is finished.

>16
Did you really think the drawings were meant to act as trophies? I can't tell from your post if you meant that they just reminded you of such or if you actually thought Finn was reveling in what he had done.

To me the drawing on the wall was certainly an uncomfortable part of the novel, but not because I thought Finn was pleased with himself. To me they reminded me of the scrawls that a mad man might make on a wall. It seemed to me that it was Finn trying to cope with and in some way purge his demons. I thought that the pictures were drawn out of a desperation–that if Finn didn't draw them he would be consumed by something.

#17 That's an excellent point - I think your interpretation makes more sense. I was thinking of trophies in the sense that he wanted some evidence of things that had happened - something to look at and remember - but not all his depictions were of actual events, were they? Purging demons makes better sense. But we never learn just what those demon were, do we?

>18

Well, it seems to me that at least one is wrestling with the contradictions of his own behavior. We know he is a racist man, but he's drawn to beautiful black women. Something I'm sure he saw as a weakness and that idea was certainly reinforced by the Judge and the general reaction to his situation.

Certainly at times he seems to take pride in being sort of an "outlaw" in status, but other times it seems that he is deeply shamed by it. This maybe explains why he acts so harshly at learning that Mary took help from a black man. For him it may have destroyed what little pride he could hang on to.

We do know that Finn deeply fears the devil (insisting on driving nails into the new pair of shoes he receives almost immediately) so even though he's very rarely repentant, one would suspect he fears judgment for his actions.

Not sure if anyone has written this but I had to get my opinion in while I had time...Why Finn murdered Mary:
I think he felt like he had to kill her because she took away Huck and was going to put him in a compromising position...as either denying that he was Finn's boy completely and his mother a black woman....or Mary staying with him and becoming a slave, which would hurt Finn's pride. Am I making sense?

I believe someone mentioned this earlier, but I'm going to go ahead and repeat it. What was the point of the lawyer showing up and then Finn taking him out ot be killed? The only thing I can come up with is that Clinch did this to ensure that Finn was in the Judge's debt or to prove how truly incompetent Finn is by trying to remove the bullet...

Another scene that truly proved to me that Finn was a monster was when he went to the black man in the store and made him prove to him that his grandaughter was sick with fever, the scene was gripping.