Will we see an iPhone app for LibraryThing?
I would definitely like to see an iPhone app for this amazing tool!
iPhone and LT in the same sentence? Just the mention of it makes me drool.
It's something that we definitely want to do. Right now we're pretty busy with getting all of the new main site features out the door and into your hands. After that we plan on doing some things like an iPhone version. We probably won't do a real iPhone app. We'll probably do an iPhone optimized version of the web site. But we'll see.
We do have AN iPhone app ready to go (or nearly ready). But it's not an app for dealing with your catalog entries. oooo...mysteries!
We do have AN iPhone app ready to go (or nearly ready). But it's not an app for dealing with your catalog entries. oooo...mysteries!
Dammit. You could have left that out, and I would have considered my curiosity satisfied, but, no, you have to throw in that last bit and leave me guessing still.
>6
There's a reason he's called TormentDawg . . .
I figured that somebody would bring that up.
How about something like this so we could scan books without the cuecat.
http://www.redlaser.com/Would be nice in a bookstore to be able to scan the barcode and see if I have the book or not.
We've looked into this a bit.
I've tried the various barcode scanning apps on my iphone. I rate every one of them FAIL. Sure, they get it right some of the time, but most of the time they just can't make out the information well enough to produce a good result.
The problem isn't the applications, but Apple's completely inadequate selection of hardware when it comes to the camera. iPhone cameras can't focus on close objects (macro/micro) so that makes them pretty useless for barcode scanning.
When the 3rd gen iphones come out I suspect that they will have a much better camera so we could possibly do something along these lines.
I've just bought the Collectorz.com iPhone app that will let me show the core of my library on my iTouch - no need for an iPhone, or an internet connection.
I have an iPod Touch, and would like to have my collection downloaded to an application so I can access it when there is no internet connection.
I'm also a novice iPhone programmer, and have been messing around with the SDK and the JSON API that LibraryThing provides. I've gotten my application to parse and display book information.
Now the real work begins. Here are some features I'm planning:
1. Cached catalogs - access your books offline
2. Sort catalog and display by Author, Title
3. "Do I have this" feature - type in ISBN, Author, Title will display likely matches already in your library
4. Search LibraryThing for Author, Title, ISBN
5. Add books from application
Questions for Library Thing admins:
1. Are you ok with this usage of the JSON API? I will be pulling down entire libraries through the API when the user requests a sync. Also, this isn't exactly a browser, so some of your licensing becomes interesting.
2. Can we add some way to get the JSON number through a submit of the username and password? Otherwise, people will have to input their JSON into the application instead - not as user friendly.
Questions for the rest of you:
1. Feature requests - please be specific
2. Pricing info - how much would you be willing to pay for the application? I'm all for free software, but I'd like my effort to at least pay for the Apple developer license so I can distribute it ($100 a year even if you're releasing only free applications).
I'm specifically looking for such an application? Will it provide coverflow? I want something on my Touch where I can access my Library Thing covers offline.
After the iPhone app...
Could you throw a bone to us poor T-Mobile G1 users, please? ;)
Talk to all the hardware developers and get a common development platform.
Sadly, I have a real job as well as my iPhone hobby and only have time to learn to program the device I have.
Once I get the code together, I'd be happy to throw it to developers for porting to other platforms, but I fear that it would be easier to design and build this application from scratch for the G1.
Yeah. Cover images with the cached catalog is one thing I'd really like mattfreier. Though I don't have an iPhone (just a touch) I could see being able to photograph a barcode when then searches my library would be useful to folks.
As for price, I'd pay $10 I think. the Collectorz book app for iPhone is that much.
I have an ipod touch (1g) and export my library into Excel and read it with the 'files' app or as an attachment to my email - ie I email the excel file to myself, then while connected via wifi also download the attachment then it's on the ipod for when I'm offline - I just keep it to title and author so it's easy to see when I'm in a bookshop, and keeps the file size small too.
Can you see your library thing pages at all when browsing the web from an iphone? Can you check while shopping to see if you have such and such already in your library? Or would you do something like think ou don't have the book, and unable to check LT, purchase it...
Yeah, you can see any web page on an iPhone, so you can check your catalogue etc. I'm on my iPhone right now actually.
librarything.com/m
m for mobile :)
you can also browse your regular catalog without the m interface, but there's no way to sign in.
Edit: Apparently you can sign into the website itself now.
Message edited by its author, Jul 4, 2009, 9:26pm.
So, there's some back story here.
According to Amazon, iPhone applications that use Amazon data are forbidden by their terms of service. They have told us we can't develop one. Meanwhile, a number of other companies have developed them, and... Amazon has done nothing about it.
You can imagine how I feel about all this, particularly as Amazon is, through Abebooks, a minority investor of LibraryThing. It's no fun to have your minority owner directly competing with you, through Shelfari, and stopping you from doing what even even companies they
don't own are doing. I hope they either enforce their rules and cut off the iPhone apps., or allow us to build one.
We will be debuting an Amazon app soon, but it will not be a cataloging app. For that, we need to develop an
iPhone-optimized web versionMessage edited by its author, Jul 4, 2009, 10:58am.
>22 With an iPhone, you can indeed sign in to the regular site, and see every page. It looks exactly the same as from a computer.
23-Tim, does you minority investor, or even someone from Abebooks interface with you about these things? Is an LT iPhone app going to be something that would cut them out of the cheese, or would it be something that could get them more cheese. I bet, at the end of the day, an LT app would drive more sales one way or another to them.
And the way you point out that others are doing it even in violation of some of their fine print. Probably makes one want to tear their hair out. It would seem to me that the iPhone platform is one that ever more apps are wanted for. Certainly Apple rather having you develope for them then an Android phone...
>25
It's not rational. I think it's bureaucratic, although the LT/Amazon relationship is fraught generally--they didn't actually buy their share, they just got it, and they run a competitor and our many ties to other booksellers can't be a selling point for us internally.
I also think the decision is poorly though-out, and will get reversed. When Amazon cracks down on this and many other uses of its data it says it will, it's going to be a huge story and, I suspect, Amazon will retreat. Amazon has always built its developer community on favorable data terms. Now, when other options are suddenly available, Amazon is moving to restrict the whole thing. It's a dumb move, and when they hit the brick wall of tech opinion, they'll retreat. Meanwhile, they'll have stunted the growth of something that benefits their bottom line, and helped its competitors.
26: Any chance you could use this as a way to get Barnes and Noble data? "Amazon won't let me do this. Do you want to have a widget instead?"
LibraryThing has a contractual right to pursue relations with any data provider or bookseller. BN, however, does not own their own data. If we give up Amazon data—a possibility—we'd probably approach Bowker, our other minority investor, or Ingram.
The Amazon link is something I do use, as their ease of being a customer is the best I have found. They have my wish lists, they ship with two day delivery for my once a year fee...
So the LT/Amazon connection works well for me. I see something I like on LT, I read a little here, I press the Amazon link and I add it to my wish list for later there.
Love it...
We wouldn't take away the Amazon link, if we took away Amazon data.
I think there are so so many people who use Amazon data only, that there would have to be a search interface to data from another major US bookseller instead.
It would have to be replaced, definitely.
Soooo....Should I put my development on hold? I'm not affiliated with LT, but obviously I'd be using your (and Amazon's) data. Since I've gotten most of the data access and display structure in place I may complete the application just for my own use, but it would be nice to allow it to see the light of day as well.
I don't know. What are you working on? Message me?
34: Tim, see msg 14.
Not having an iPhone yet, how often are you not online? Even in an iPod Touch. If you are online, you have the benefit of using LT, so what percentage would Matt's app be needed because you couldn't surf to the LT site?
36: An app built for the iphone could display data better than the website itself, as that would involve a lot less zooming. Plus he mentioned cached catalogs as a potential feature, so that it could be used offline.
Message edited by its author, Jul 6, 2009, 2:57pm.
36: It is especially helpful due to the size of data we are talking about here. It would take several seconds to pull up each book over the iPhone cellular network. Even on WiFi, it takes about 5 seconds in my tests to get a 20 book catalog.
Most of this is cover data - a text only application would not necessarily need to cache data, but it would be a very slow application if you want covers to be displayed.
>38.
It sounds like once they release a Lynx browser app for the iThings (a term I coined while working for Apple), LT mobile's loading time problems will be a thing of the past.
Now all we need is less reliance on JavaScript. ;)
Well, they actually went ahead with killing off mobile use:
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/07/ama...I feel of two minds about it. I'm relieved to be sure they weren't just going after
us. But it's a bad move overall, for Amazon, for LibraryThing and for others. There's nothing special about mobile—nothing that would justify changing their mind on the basic principle that open data helps Amazon's bottom line. So I have question what's really going on? Have they lost faith in that idea, or is this just a weird aberration?
>40.
It's a conspiracy! Amazon wants to prevent you from using their data while you're browsing through Borders!
The long term outcome I see of this is that fewer app developers will use Amazon as a source. That, or more people will be getting Amazon's "express written consent."
Does that mean that librarything.com/m can't even pull data from Amazon, as it's for use on a handheld device? Or any other site that uses the Amazon API that is accessible from a handheld?
Why did Amazon have to turn the Suck up to 11?
41>
Why did Amazon have to turn the Suck up to 11?
You're about ten years late on noticing that, IMO. That ship sailed long ago when they retroactively changed their privacy policy, with no way for users to remove data collected under the previous policy from the new, less restrictive, sharing policies.
Is there a Shelfari widget?
A widget? Yes. But not a Shelfari app.
Crap. I guess that kills off my app.
Unless using your API, which then uses Amazon data would be a legal workaround....
Tim, message me if there's a chance to even get out a text-based application here.
Crap. I guess that kills off my app.Yeah. It's amusing that we've been discussing something that is pretty big news. If only TechCrunch read LibraryThing message boards...
LT can offer:
1. API to library data
2. Covers
#1 is good and will soon be very very very good. #2 is meh.
The problem is that most LT users will have Amazon books. So they'd need to be converted somehow.
Message edited by its author, Jul 7, 2009, 8:13pm.
But even if Amazon says no to using their data, which of course might be reversed, you can still view the web (slowly i believe you have said) and see the information that way?
Doesn't Amazon get a great deal of its data from Ingram? If not now, didn't it use to?
If LT has a scanned image in it's library of a cover, rather than an image from Amazon would that substitute for the APP plans? Can an LT App be done with out Amazon info?
If I had my iPhone with me and wanted to access my LT data, I would want to be able to see if I had the book already. If not, check a few things like the LT info page to see what others say about the book, maybe tag it into a collection for 'While window shopping, order later'
What seems dumb about the Amazon decision, is if I was browsing in Borders and felt I could score 30% off by going to Amazon with my two day delivery. A couple clicks on my iPhone, and then the amazon link and I could order it.
Tim Retaliate. Disable that feature on all mobile sign-ins...
Doesn't Amazon get a great deal of its data from Ingram? If not now, didn't it use to?
I'm not sure if it gets any from them now. I know much of it is not, but am not sure if any is.
If LT has a scanned image in it's library of a cover, rather than an image from Amazon would that substitute for the APP plans? Can an LT App be done with out Amazon info?
Yes and no. Members would be annoyed if things didn't match.
If I had my iPhone with me and wanted to access my LT data, I would want to be able to see if I had the book already. If not, check a few things like the LT info page to see what others say about the book, maybe tag it into a collection for 'While window shopping, order later'
Well, you can use the web as much as you like. And we can make a web version that's sized for the screen better.
What seems dumb about the Amazon decision, is if I was browsing in Borders and felt I could score 30% off by going to Amazon with my two day delivery. A couple clicks on my iPhone, and then the amazon link and I could order it.
Exactly. Why do they want to stop this? It makes no sense.
Tim Retaliate. Disable that feature on all mobile sign-ins...
What feature?
The ability to click on the Amazon link... If it is a mobile device, disabling that link would be retaliation, but I was being facetious...
(I may succumb tomorrow and get an iPhone...)
Message edited by its author, Jul 7, 2009, 8:32pm.
If LT goes Amazon-data free, we could have an absolutely kick-ass iPhone app--and be the only one...
How would that work with people who have books from Amazon in their libraries already? Or the current webpage widgets with covers, particularly those with LTFL?
I know John Buckman with Bookmooch was budgeting some money for a Bookmooch app on iPhone.
Is there a way to tell how many books that are listed in LT are covered by only Amazon material, and how many have reviews, or user supplied descriptions? User supplied covers rather than Amazon supplied covers. What else comes from Amazon?
On the description front, much of Amazon says they get it from somewhere else, like Publishers weekly. I wonder do they pay for that in a license, or is it given away for free by the publisher as part of the publishers marketing. (Without a description are you going to buy a book just based on a title, and a cover that is so small you may not be able to see it clearly?) What content that Amazon gives out is really content that they have created.
Then I post my reviews, which I actually type first in an engine at Living Social on Facebook (When are we getting that Facebook APP?) then copy it to here, then use the Amazon button to copy and post my review there, and finally, place it into a website I maintain of all my reviews. So who owns those reviews after I have written them (I really do according to the laws of copyright, no matter what Amazon would try to say and how many lawyers they might hide behind.) But the horading of content just strikes me as anti-Jeff Bezos and Amazonian. Much more Microsoftie and early AOLite.
Is there a way to tell how many books that are listed in LT are covered by only Amazon material, and how many have reviews, or user supplied descriptions? User supplied covers rather than Amazon supplied covers. What else comes from Amazon?
You can tell piece by piece if you know where to look, but it's not aggregated for you.
On the description front, much of Amazon says they get it from somewhere else, like Publishers weekly. I wonder do they pay for that in a license, or is it given away for free by the publisher as part of the publishers marketing. (Without a description are you going to buy a book just based on a title, and a cover that is so small you may not be able to see it clearly?) What content that Amazon gives out is really content that they have created.
They get reviews from various places, but the core bibliographic data is coming from publishers, mostly. They get ONIX feeds, mostly.
Then I post my reviews, which I actually type first in an engine at Living Social on Facebook (When are we getting that Facebook APP?) then copy it to here, then use the Amazon button to copy and post my review there, and finally, place it into a website I maintain of all my reviews. So who owns those reviews after I have written them (I really do according to the laws of copyright, no matter what Amazon would try to say and how many lawyers they might hide behind.) But the horading of content just strikes me as anti-Jeff Bezos and Amazonian. Much more Microsoftie and early AOLite.
Some sites claim copyright—Amazon's LibraryThing clone does. I don't know what LS does. But Amazon and LibraryThing only claim licenses to your review. In LT's case, you can define who gets to use it. You're right that, technically, FB may also have a claim, although I don't see them entering the book review licensing business. They'd be eviscerated.
Is there a way to tell how many books that are listed in LT are covered by only Amazon material, and how many have reviews, or user supplied descriptions? User supplied covers rather than Amazon supplied covers. What else comes from Amazon?
You can tell piece by piece if you know where to look, but it's not aggregated for you. I meant could you Tim and LT Track that like in Zeitgeist and have a way to determine when you are adequately covered with site resources for such information...
With only 300K books reviewed out of of over 4 million titles, I gather we have a long way to go to get as much info as Amazon has.
Message edited by its author, Jul 8, 2009, 11:11am.
Tim,
Would Google Gears support also be in violation of this TOS? Gears has a use on non-handheld devices (I used it on my desktop to keep up with my writing until I got plugged back into the 'net), and it can be used on a laptop (like, reading Google Reader on a train on your way to work). Granted, "Gears is available for Windows, Windows Mobile (IE Mobile, Opera Mobile), Mac (Firefox, Safari), Linux and Android." The fact that it's for IE Mobile, Opera Mobile, and Android would probably hurt the team... (and then there's coughGearsMonkeycough)
I suppose the next best thing would be to have the system "know" what was "Amazon Product Advertising Content," and just not do anything that'll use it. But that seems like a bit of overhead just so you don't accidentally send mobile customers to Amazon, or whatever their convoluted reasoning is (keep an eye out for an official Amazon iPhone App!).
If it was between no mobile application or no Amazon images/etc., though, I'd take the latter.
Of course, if I had a handheld LT app, I'd only be using it for CK and catalogue-related edits (if I'm at a remote location while reading a book, and I'd like to add a CK item, this would be IDEAL), and not so much remote adding of books. I do that at the mothership. But, I'm not everybody. Some people might want to catalogue a book while leaving the checkout counter at the store ("No bag, thanks, It'll just add another step to the cataloguing process!")
And just to top off the morning with a stupid question: Did you try to get express prior written approval?
Gears
We've thought about it. There are also some nasty provisions about caching that might come into play, though. Can you run gears on a mobile device?
As far as knowing and not knowing, it could sub in and out content as necessary. Most Amazon content could be subbed. But there would be subtle differences. I think people would be weirded out by it.
Did you try to get express prior written approval?
No explicitly. But they won't grant it.
According to the Gears site, it currently works on IE Mobile, Opera Mobile, and Android.
But personally, I'd love to be able to use LT on my Palm when AFK. I'd definitely tolerate any weird-out factors.
Is it a Palm PRE?
I'm actually in doubt about whether we can make a PRE application. The rule Amazon communicated to me—still not "out there" on TechCrunch and etc.—was that it can't be a compiled mobile application. But I gather PRE applications are HTML and JS underneath, so maybe that's okay?
Did they mean that you couldn't compile in Amazon's data? I can understand them not wanting their data actually compiled into an application.
However, querying their data using code that is compiled into an application is different maybe?
>58.
HP iPAC with CE. Probably shouldn't have called it a "Palm." Sorry, I slipped into making it a generic term for "palmtop computer."
Message edited by its author, Jul 8, 2009, 8:06pm.
I think I've figured it out—see my Tweet:
http://twitter.com/librarythingtim/statu...What's so dispiriting here is that Amazon grew
with the grain of the internet—making their data free so that others would create value for them. They drew on the power of the crowd to create things they never could have done themselves. Now someone short-sighted must be looking at the situation and saying "Hey, we could get that value and don't need the middlemen!" This makes short-term sense, but it ignores how Amazon grew, and the power of these dynamics in other hands. The web is stronger than proprietary software or proprietary data.
Anyway, what I really fear is that, if Amazon is willing to favor Snaptell over all other mobile developers, including LibraryThing, what's the say they won't favor Shelfari over LibraryThing in the same way?
Message edited by its author, Jul 8, 2009, 9:24pm.
Hey Tim...Pre owner here who would love to see an LT app or at least a more comprehensive mobile page. I can access the full web page with no problem, but have to do a lot of pinching and zooming.
How does Snaptell make money? If you take a picture of a thing, and send it to Snaptell and they tell you all about it, they have expenses. They only make a buck I would think if you go that last little bit and purchase.
So how is that different then LT who is adding way more useful content about books then Snaptell will be able to. Maybe it is about talking to the right guy at Amazon and getting noticed... Amazon is a big place. Any ideas how many LTers actually work there?
Delicious Library just got slammed by Amazon for their iPhone application (
article link).
"Amazon gave D-M an ultimatum: pull the iPhone app, or lose the API access for the desktop version of Library. Despite Shipley's requests for a mobile device exception, the big A did not relent."
Yeah, see message 40 too.
Just downloaded the Redlaser app for iPhone, which is currently #2 in the US app store.
Seems like building librarything integration wouldn't be too difficult, since they offer a super-easy do-it-yourself link-builder to use their interface to search other sites:
http://occipital.com/blog/2009/10/01/cre...and also cos they have an SDK with tools to build custom apps with their technology....
http://www.redlaser.com/SDK.aspxSounds like more fun than my cuecat. Any chance that someone at Librarything would take redlaser integration on as a project?
M
I'll never rule it out but we're not developing a standalone cataloging iPhone app right now. Mostly due to restrictions regarding Amazon data.
That could all change tomorrow though. Or the next day. Or the next.....
Or in "two weeks"?
heh ...
My big desideratum is the description stuff about stores. Can we just dump some text above the image? (The image should be a little less gigantic, but whatever.) I think the info is useful.
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