Hard Case Crime?
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I see that there are 21 books that have been entered as belong to this series (although the order goes up to 49). However I don't believe it to be a proper series in LT terms.
In position 13 is The Colorado Kid which has been published by a number of publishers so Hard Case Crime cannot be considered a publisher series.
Is there anyone who would like to speak up for retaining the series otherwise I will delete it in a few days time.
I don't much care either way of the series stays, but I can say that Stephen King wrote The Colorado Kid specifically for the Hard Case Crime series. The only place it wasn't published as such would be outside of the U.S. where Hard Case doesn't exist.
From Wikipedia: The Colorado Kid is a mystery novel written by Stephen King for the Hard Case Crime imprint, published in 2005. The book was issued in one paperback-only edition by the specialty crime and mystery publishing house.
I agree it's a questionable series, but if it isn't hurting anyone, I'd say leave it.
This is definitely a tough one - it seems it's half and half. I bought The Colorado Kid knowing that it was written specifically for the Hard Case Crime Imprint - a few other authors were doing the same thing that year.
I know that the special hardcover edition of The Colorado Kid were done years after the fact for collectors who weren't all that thrilled with not having the HC option. So anything beyond the Hard Case imprint is the interloper.
As to the problem - from their own site:
Hard Case Crime is dedicated to reviving the vigor and excitement, the suspense and thrills — the sheer entertainment — of the golden age of paperback crime novels, both by bringing back into print the best work of the pulp era and by introducing readers to new work by some of today's most powerful writers and artists. Determined detectives and dangerous women...fortune hunters and vengeance seekers...ingenious criminals and men on the run for their lives...Hard Case Crime novels offer everything you want from a great story, all in handsome and affordable mass-market editions.
Hard Case Crime was created by Charles Ardai and Max Phillips; the line is published as a collaboration between Winterfall LLC and Dorchester Publishing. Cover design after December 2006 is by Steve Cooley of Cooley Design Lab.
To order our books, call 1-800-481-9191. If you'd like to receive each new book automatically when it is published, ask about the Hard Case Crime Book Club.
They admit that they're bringing old prints back into the line along with original works. Therein lies the rub - some of the series was made from old works, some of the series was made from entirely new books.
I say only remove anything with previously published editions on LT (getting a special edition later like The Colorado Kid does not eliminate it from the series). Unfortunately, they don't list what was new-new and what was resurrected on their site:
I'd say someone should update the series info once the numbers of the republished items are eliminated and have that noted in the series description page...
Sorry, but if different books or a work can either be in a series or not be in a series than it cannot work as a series in LT. Perhaps some day Tim will add support for edition-level series but until then it just doesn't work.
As I am one of the "second class" who live outside the USA the edition of The Colorado Kid I can buy easily is the non Hard Case Crime one. Yes it is a UK small press edition (but they printed 11,549 copies over the various editions which is a pretty large print-run for hardcover in the UK) , but the existence of it in other editions means that it shouldn't be a LT series. But add to that the reprints - for example Westlake's The Cutie is a reissue of his first novel The Mercenaries which was first published in 1960.
So for me it fails on two fronts. I don't think it really makes sense to have half the series entered as these are the original books in that imprint.
>6 When books are specifically written for the series, it's a series.
I think the only "mistake" in the Hard Crime series is that the publishers decided to give their series credibility by putting some the imprint on some old novels. The new books wouldn't exist outside of the request to write for the new Hard Crime series...
So they did a half and half thing. It's a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater in my opinion. It's a fair compromise.
Frankly, what harm is the half series with notation? The additional Hard Crimes were expressly written for the series and weren't being written otherwise.
Again - on The Colorado Kid - other small presses asked for permission to reprint due to the collectible nature of Stephen King. It happened after the series, so the series came first.
>8 Yes, the series came first on the King. However, it still fails the exclusivity test. There's 12k who will be told they have the series edition when they don't.
Right. This isn't some nebulous rule where we can decide to ignore it some cases. It is a limitation of LT where if you put add a series to a work then it puts that series on every book that has been combined into that work. And if someone has a book that isn't in the series it tells them that it is, which is wrong and why Tim made the rule.
Firstly, not all of the limited editions are even logged at LT - there are only 942 copies of The Colorado Kid even logged here.
In this case, I would argue that the ISBNs associated with the special editions should be separated and given a disambiguation notice so that they're not in the series to keep those folks out. The King story was specifically written for the series.
I cannot believe that the original intent of the author is really going to be tossed aside by the fact that publishers later said, "hey we can make a hardcover buck here..."
ETA - although my catalog doesn't show it, I do actually have a copy of the book - softcover, so that's why I know a lot of what I know about the publication.
When it comes to combining, what matters is whether the text is substantially the same, not whether it is in a series or not. Like I said, someday LT may support what you want to do but today it does not.
The number of copies is basically irrelevant but I would guess at well over 20% of the copies catalogued on LT are not the Hard Case Crime edition. Just looking at the numbers the second most numerous edition at 178 copies is the Spanish edition put out by Debolsillo.
Now you've made me go and grab my copy and catalog it - I have the HARD CASE imprinted 1st edition paperback. Written for the SERIES.
ISBN - 0843955848
I've checked it against their website it's the only ISBN they have listed.
Guess what - it's 811/943 editions listed.
You're right about the not 20% of the editions in a rather inversely odd way - 86% of the Colorado Kids logged come from the series.
How does that tie up with what I am seeing.
I looked at the editions page and can definitely see the second line is ISBN 9875661473 with 178 copies.
Filtering out ISBN 0843955848 (manually) I get the following list
Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 9875661473) (178 copies separate)
The Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 0743550404) (15 copies separate)
The Colorado Kid / Stephen King (7 copies separate)
Colorado Kid. / Stephen King (ISBN 354826378X) (7 copies separate)
De Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 9024553814) (6 copies separate)
Colorado Kid. / Stephen King (ISBN 354826378X) (5 copies separate)
De Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 9024553814) (5 copies separate)
Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 8820039753) (3 copies separate)
Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 2290352136) (3 copies separate)
The Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 1905834047) (2 copies separate)
The Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 0743550404) (2 copies separate)
The Colorado Kid (Large Print) / Stephen King (ISBN 0739325876) (2 copies separate)
The Colorado Kid (AUDIOBOOK) (CD) / Stephen King (ISBN 1419375415) (2 copies separate)
De Colorado kid / Stephen King (ISBN 9024553814) (2 copies separate)
The Colorado kid / Stephen King (ISBN 1905834012) (2 copies separate)
De Colorado Kid / Stephen King (2 copies separate)
THE COLORADO KID / Stephen (introduction by Charles Ardai) King (ISBN 1905834063) (2 copies separate)
A coloradói kölyök / Stephen King (ISBN 9630785951) (1 copy separate)
The Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 074357091X) (1 copy separate)
Colorado kid, De / Stephen King (ISBN 9024553814) (1 copy separate)
Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 9875661473) (1 copy separate)
Colorado Kid / Stephen King (1 copy separate)
The Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 1905834012) (1 copy separate)
Colorado Kid. (Debolsillo) / Stephen King (ISBN 8497938615) (1 copy separate)
The colorado kid / Stephen King (ISBN 2290352136) (1 copy separate)
Colorado Kid (The Colorado Kid) / Stephen King (ISBN 354826378X) (1 copy separate)
The Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 9875661473) (1 copy separate)
The Colorado kid sound recording / Stephen King (ISBN 1419375407) (1 copy separate)
De Colorado Kid (ISBN 9024553814) (1 copy separate)
The Colorado Kid (AUDIOBOOK) (CD) / Stephen King (ISBN 1419375415) (1 copy separate)
Colorado kid, De / Stephen King (ISBN 9024553814) (1 copy separate)
The Colorado Kid (Audio CD) / Stephen King (ISBN 0743550404) (1 copy separate)
De Colorado kid / Stephen King (ISBN 9024553814) (1 copy separate)
Colorado Kid (Ullstein) / Stephen King (ISBN 354826378X) (1 copy separate)
COLORADO KID / STEPHEN KING (1 copy separate)
Which is a grand total of 263. OK 9 of those aren't listed with an ISBN and I will graciously allow that they are most probably Hard Case Crime Editions. How did you get your 811/943 as it seems to contradict the numbers above?
From the editions page:
The Colorado Kid (Hard Case Crime) / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (522 copies separate)
The Colorado Kid (Hard Case Crime) / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (157 copies separate)
The Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (59 copies separate)
The Colorado kid / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (17 copies separate)
The Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (7 copies separate)
The Colorado kid / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (6 copies separate)
The Colorado Kid (Hard Case Crime (Paperback)) / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (6 copies separate)
Colorado Kid (Hard Case Crime) / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (2 copies separate)
Colorado Kid, The (Hard Case Crime) / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (1 copy separate)
The Colorado Kid / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (1 copy separate)
0843955848) (1 copy separate)
The Colorado Kid (Hard Case Crime 13) / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (1 copy separate)
Colorado Kid (The) / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (1 copy separate)
The Colorado Kid (Book 13) (Hard Case Crime) / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (1 copy separate)
Colorado Kid, The / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (1 copy separate)
Colorado Kid (Hard Case Crime), The / Stephen King (ISBN 0843955848) (1 copy separate)
From this list -
11 singletons =
811 Hard Case Editions
Although it may only be 8 singletons at the end - so 808. Pardon the egregious error.
ETA - although I may have missed a second grouping of 6 - so it could well be 817. Heh.
Either way, it appears that the totaling may be off again for copies.
#8Frankly, what harm is the half series with notation? The additional Hard Crimes were expressly written for the series and weren't being written otherwise.
I think the harm is that if the series is present in a half-and-half state, users who haven't been in on this discussion will find it and add their reprints to it, even if there is a notice. I am afraid that this has to be an all-or-nothing decision.
>17 Well, no, it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing decision. We can tolerate the fact that a series needs a disambiguation notice and an occasional cleaning out every so often.
>19 Bah, that's what we get for trusting math - still...Hard Case is where they do come from.
>17 If we really did do all or none, we'd be eliminating series right and left as we discovered that not all volumes were owned wouldn't we? And the notice would be incredibly simple -
"This series of Hard Crime represents only those books that were original commissions written for the Hard Crime line. The full line included reprints and can be viewed on the company web site here"
I see nothing different about Hard Case Crime and any other labelled specialist imprint that has a proportion of original books.
#20 "we'd be eliminating series right and left as we discovered that not all volumes were owned wouldn't we?"
yes, that's generally the idea of the no publishers rule - to eliminate vast amounts of spurious series that shouldn't be listed as a series in LT.
If I bought Colarado Kid in the UK because Stephen King wrote it, am likely to want to know about various other books written by other authors the sole connection is that a US publisher thought they'd make money?
Answer = NO.
Hence to me if a book in an allowed publisher series (such as Dummies) appears anywhere under any other imprint, the entire series should be deleted.
#5 They admit that they're bringing old prints back into the line along with original works. Therein lies the rub - some of the series was made from old works, some of the series was made from entirely new books.
Going through the list of book it seems that the majority are reprints. Then there is the possibility that the better ones in the range will be sold to other (maybe non-US) publishers. So it is looking more and more just like another publishing imprint to me.
Here's the breakdown instead of tossing out vague terms - it's not just an imprint - and I must STRESS that I feel author intent is the key:
Books First Published for Hard Crime:
Fade to Blonde (#2)
The Confession (#6)
Kiss Her Goodbye (#8)
Dutch Uncle (#12)
The Colorado Kid (#13)
Witness to Myself (#19)
The Last Quarry (#23)
The Last Match (#25)
Robbie's Wife (#29)
Songs of Innocence (#33)
Dead Street (#37)
Deadly Beloved (#38)
Money Shot (#40)
The Max (#47)
The First Quarry (#48)
Gun Work (#49)
The Dead Man's Brother (#52)
Losers Live Longer (#59)
21 First-time publications - over a third. The NEXT largest contingency of publications represents the UNABRIDGED reprint, which is actually a whole different wrench if you want to get right down to it. The Complete and Unabridged works are the following:
Grifter's Game (#1)
Two for the Money (#5)
Plunder of the Sun (#10)
Branded Woman (#11)
The Girl with the Long Green Heart (#14)
The Gutter and the Grave (#15)
Night Walker (#16)
A Touch of Death (#17)
Straight Cut (#21)
Lemons Never Lie (#22)
The Guns of Heaven (#24)
Grave Descend (#26)
The Peddler (#27)
The Vengeful Virgin(#30)
The Wounded and the Slain (#31)
Kill Now, Pay Later (#35)
A Diet of Treacle (#39)
Zero Cool (#41)
The Murderer Vine (#43)
No House Limit (#45)
The Cutie (#53)
House Dick (#54)
Casino Moon (#55)
Another 25 titles that, if given significantly more material for the Hard Case Crime Series, puts nearly 46/59 titles done with enough original content for the series.
Wikipedia even calls it a series and details this information.
It's the limitations of series as implemented currently on LT that is key. Author or anyone else's intent has nothing to do with it.
I am not sure what "Complete and unabridged" is apart from a marketing term. It doesn't necessarily imply that the previous editions were incomplete or abridgements.
I note for 361 their website says "First U.S. publication in more than 40 years. (First paperback publication in the U.S. ever!)." which implies multiple previous editions. I am sure that if it their edition had large chunks of re-instated text they would have made a point of mentioning it.
I would think that would be the same for all the other "Complete and unabridged" reprints.
To be fair the Wikipedia article also calls Hard Case Crime a publisher. Wikipedia also calls "Harvard Classics" a series - when in LT terms it is obviously not. So I don't think we want to take Wikipedia's word for what is and isn't a series.
I think the limitations mirror reality—this series is sometimes about the edition and sometimes about the "work." If you can tell me what the feature should do, I'm all ears. To capture a situation like this, however, the feature would need to be quite complex, unless you got rid of the "work" level entirely. You need to set something up as a work with edition holes, and set defaults for what should happen to new books coming into the system, etc. If you got rid of works, then you'd be cataloging many times more books into series, and Harry Potter would have 1500 books in it.
I feel like, on balance, it won't hurt too much to have the series, provided the series info has a long note about it. Some people will have a book marked as belonging to the series, will look it up and understand the issue. I don't think one could have the same live-and-let-live attitude if the Harvard Classics or the Great Books were shanghaiing every big book of western literature.
But I can see it both ways.
In #'s 8 and 24 Stephmo said: Again - on The Colorado Kid - other small presses asked for permission to reprint due to the collectible nature of Stephen King. It happened after the series, so the series came first... Here's the breakdown instead of tossing out vague terms - it's not just an imprint - and I must STRESS that I feel author intent is the key...
In #25 jjwilson said: It's the limitations of series as implemented currently on LT that is key. Author or anyone else's intent has nothing to do with it.
So if some little company got the rights to publish an exclusive edition of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone but never intended to publish the rest, are you saying that all copies of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone would have to be removed from the Harry Potter series?
I suspect most user's copies of The Man in the Iron Mask say nothing about it being book 5 of the D'Artagnan Romances. Similarly, I'm betting that most copies of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz make no mention of the numerous sequels. Should those books be removed from their series?
Of course not. Author intent has everything to do with it. How many special edition/stand alone versions of Dune or Foundation have been published? Yet nobody says that those books should be removed from their series.
There are many romance series here on LT where a publisher printed a book first as part of a publisher's own series and then later published copies not labelled as part of the series. I believe general consensus has stated that the series should stand.
I think Stephmo's post #20 seems to be the best solution. Foreign editions/special editions of a book should not effect whether that book is part of a series. What was the original intent when it was published?
This isn't a case like the Harvard Classics series which consists solely of reprints of previously published works.
No. We are talking about publishers series here. Books where the only connection between them is that the publisher decided to publish them as a series. That is a whole different thing than series like the Harry Potter series which remain a series no matter how many publishers publish it.
I've said before that Tim made a mistake when he only made one CK field to cover both kinds of series.
This is my issue - on Stephen King's own website, the announcement for how the Colorado Kid came to be is quite simple. The Hard Crime guys wanted him to write a blurb for some books and he said, "I'd like to write a book for the series."
If it weren't for the series, The Colorado Kid wouldn't exist.
That's the problem that I have with your assertion that it's not part of the series.
Can we use the second person?
So, let's add a publisher's series field. But then the question is how to make sure it only hits certain editions within series, right? Or do we just let that hang?
OK. Mistakes were made. IMHO. But you're right that it doesn't solve the problem of allowing this series. Wouldn't a solution require the editions layer that you've talked about. I'm assuming that that's a task on the same order as Collections.
>31 I've always thought a sort of "available special editions" field would be useful...something so you could somehow grab the Easton Presses, Harvard Editions, limited run editions and so on...
Although this is getting close to the lists, isn't it?
And it doesn't cover things like the more ubiquitous Penguins, does it?
Looks like I'm one of the offending parties on this one, so I'll chip in. In my case, I saw Hard Case Crime (HCC) on my series list and realized how incomplete it was at the time, only having 3 entries. So I've been identifying the books as I read them.
I understand the exclusive monopoly rule would exclude HCC as a distinct series. On the other hand, having read about half of the series I think the selections have a tight, narrow focus in terms of content and treatment. Probably because Charles Ardai appears to be the only editor for the series. The King book is probably the most atypical book of the series.
I'll also admit that the series designation has some utility for me, especially the "related" fields like series and awards. It's also nice to see all the cover art together.
If the series must go, I'd hope we could at least recognize a "Hard Case Crime Originals" series for the newly published works.
*bumping* this thread up because someone has seen fit to re-add the reissues back to the series, as well as remove the note that both stephmo and I have put in the series description warning against adding them.
Not that this needs more discussion. I just want the discussion visible at the top of the group for a while so folks can see it.
I didn't pay much attention last time (though I do remember the note in the series description).
I wonder, would adding a note in disambiguation on the reprinted works do anything?
I'm guessing not since the person obviously knew they were countermanding another user's opinion since they took the time to not only re-add the books, but they even edited the series description.
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