I love sci fi movies , so I want to start with books. Where should I start . I like timetravel . One of my favorite movie is Back to the future part 2. I also love Harry Potter. Any sugguestions .

Welcome to LT!

I don't know many books on timetravel, but I would really recommend C. J. Cherryh as she writes great sci-fi books!

It's been around for a while, but The Proteus Operation by James P. Hogan features time travel.

Time and Again by Jack Finney is a time travel story, and a very enjoyable book. The protagonist goes back to late 19th century NYC, and the descriptions of the city are marvelous.

I'm also a fan of Cherryh. Her Foreigner series is very popular and consists of three trilogies--and I think she's working on the tenth book in the series. I also love her Chanur series.

If you enjoy Harry Potter, you might like other fantasy books, too. There's a whole thread in which people talk about their first fantasy novel love, so there are a lot of suggestions there:

http://www.librarything.com/topic/15428

Enjoy!

SF books are far more varied than the movies - they run the gamut from those that are more action-packed with film-like plots to those which are more literary. So whilst you are forming your likes and dislikes you will probably get a few books which don't work for you - libraries are your friend.

A number of SF films have been based upon books so if you liked Blade Runner the movie (for example) you can go back and read Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick.

There are a number of SF books that involve time-travel. One of the more well known books is Connie Willis's Doomsday Book which won the Hugo Award in 1993 (well shared the win actually). The Hugo Award is awarded by popular vote of SF fans at Worldcon.

Kage Baker's Company books are all (to some extent) built around time-travel.

David Gerrold's The Man Who Folded Himself is considered a minor classic of the time-travel subgenre and deals quite a bit with paradoxes.

There are also books like L. Sprague de Camp's Lest Darkness Fall about people who fall back through time and have to make do the best they can. Sometimes this involves an alternate history like in Eric Flint's 1632. Harry Turtledove writes quite a lot of alternate history but a few of his books have a cross-time aspect to them as well (the Crosstime Traffic series in particular).

I always recommend that people try and read some short fiction as well and luckily quite a lot of that is available online (indexed on Free SF Online

Also this Wikipedia page should give you some more ideas.

Time travel: Time and Again by Jack Finney is a classic, and The Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger is a well-written novel based on that theme.

Hard to know with Harry Potter, since he's so widely admired, but you might like Graceling by Kristin Cashore or The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman, or Neverwhere by Gaiman.

The movie rarely follows the book.

Philip K. Dicks original story is not preserved in Blade Runner. In some ways the movie is better. Dick's real life drama was if anything more bizarre than were his books.

John Carpenter's The Thing is a fair adaptation of J.W. Campbell's story, but it's more like the first inspired the second. The original movie The Thing was vastly changed from the story.

The Andromeda Strain held up pretty well as a transition to the movie, as done by Ridley Scott as was Blade Runner.

Logan's Run is a good book and a good movie, but with different themes.

None of the movies drawn from Heinlein were worth a damn as compared to the books. By His Bootstraps is a great time-travel short story. There's a two or three volume collection of short stories - Best of Science Fiction or something, someone else here will know, anyway it's a collection of some somewhat dated reasonably short stories that will get you acquainted with SciFi, and these stories have been stolen from, reworded, ect. ever since. I remember a few of the stories in the anthologies such as With Folded Hands, which is sort of a 'benevolent Big Brother' story, The Moon Moth is another, and so is The Big Front Yard. I have the volumes at home but I'm a long way from home. Heinlein has collections of short stories which are all good IMO, and one of the best short novels Glory Road

Message edited by its author, Mar 9, 2009, 12:20pm.

Slaughterhouse Five, of course.

Message edited by its author, Mar 9, 2009, 11:33am.

The Science Fiction Hall of Fame Volume I - The Science Fiction Hall of Fame Volume IIA The Science Fiction Hall of Fame IIB

26 Stories by Bradbury, Clarke, Heinlein, Sturgeon, and such classics as Asimov's Nightfall, Keyes' Flowers for Algernon, Blish's Surface Tension, Brown's Arena, Van Vogt's The Weapon Shop, and Zelazny's A Rose for Ecclesiastes, The Midas Plague ... and on

Vintage 1970's ... can be found used and pretty cheap.

Why are we recommending ancient sf? Most of it is crap. How about something a bit more recent? The OP likes Harry Potter, so how about Philip Reeves or Philip Pullman?

Based on the movies you like, I'd add a recommendation for an older (1980), but none the less delightful book, Thrice Upon a Time by James P. Hogan. A personal favorite.

From the back cover: When Murdoch was summoned to his grandfather's isolated Scottish castle, he had no idea of the old man's latest discovery - nor where it would lead him. Sir Charles, a genius in far-out physics, had found a flaw in the law of conservation of energy; in any process an incredibly tiny increment of energy escaped - back through time! Using this "tau" radiation, he could send messages into the past.

But Murdoch discovered records of message he knew he had never sent! Were many futures possible? Could a message from Future X alter the past - and thus wipe out Future X? But who would be foolish enough to send a message that could eliminate his own existence?

Then disaster struck. An advanced fusuion reactor threatened to destroy all Earth. Grimly, Murdoch sat down to send back the words that would destroy everything he had learned to love.

We aren't recommending ancient sf. Try and keep up with the process. The OP isn't looking for stories written by a journalist like 'The Moral Police in India'! Good grief that's the problem with a rollaway bug they go out for something worth eating and they always come back with a turd!

Message edited by its author, Mar 9, 2009, 12:56pm.

Ender's Game is one of the first sci fi books I fell in love with. I recommend it highly!

Recently, I've also really liked The Hunger Games and Uglies. These are all YA titles, but I'm 28 and I still love them!

#9

Reeves is a pretty good suggestion. Pullman may or may not work depending on how the OP relates to her church (mentioned on her profile) and to literature that challenges your ideas.

#13

NPR is challenging?

#11 You recommended...

Bradbury, Clarke, Heinlein, Sturgeon, and such classics as Asimov's Nightfall, Keyes' Flowers for Algernon, Blish's Surface Tension, Brown's Arena, Van Vogt's The Weapon Shop, and Zelazny's A Rose for Ecclesiastes, The Midas Plague...

Ray Bradbury - 88 years old
Arthur C Clarke - died last year aged 90
Robert Heinlein - died 21 years ago
Theodore Sturgeon - died 24 years ago
Asimov's 'Nightfall' - published 68 years ago
Flowers for Algernon - published 43 years ago (& the original story 51 years ago)
Blish's 'Surface Tension' - published 57 years ago
Brown's 'Arena' - published 65 years ago
The Weapon Shops of Isher - published 58 years ago (& the original story 67 years ago)
Zelazny's 'A Rose for Ecclesiastes' - published 40 years ago

They certainly look ancient to me. Perhaps you should try suggesting a story or novel that might possibly be younger than the OP.

Message edited by its author, Mar 9, 2009, 2:05pm.

>10 That sounds interesting, Gwen, now I have to go wishlist it!

It also occurred to me that the Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon features time travel, though these books are much more romances (or maybe romantic adventure) than what one thinks of as sci fi. Still, they are very popular.

I just read Old Man's War by John Scalzi. I can give very good recommendation for it.
By the way, books by C. J. Cherryh might be very good, I have read a few, but I really wouldn't recommend them as first science fiction books for someone who likes Back to the Future part 2 and Harry Potter.

There is a discussion of time travel books at http://www.librarything.com/talktopic.ph...

As I mentioned there, David Gerrold's The Man Who Folder Himself is a fun time travel book.

I finally remembered The Anubis Gates by Tim Powers. I thought this book was fairly entertaining and definitely involves time travel.

I have agree with #12 and Ender's Game. One of my faves. It's the first in a series and the rest of the books are more grown up.

Time Travel?

The Man Who Folded Himself - the author explores a plethora of ideas about time travel, and has a good explanation for paradoxes
Behold the Man - a man who goes back to visit Jesus,
Dancers at the End of Time trilogy - in the dying period of Earth, a man falls in love with a woman from the 19th century, and travels back in time to rescue her.

I think Kelly might be a bit young for some of the suggestions here and she seems to be a good church going gal so I would definitely recommend Ender's Game, also The Star Beast) it's cute. You might also like Madeleine L'Engle but she's a bit darker.

I just read A Wrinkle in Time by L'Engle for the first time and enjoyed it; I think it's quite suitable for a younger reader.

Lots of fantasy choices would be good, too: the C.S. Lewis books (The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and the rest) and also McCaffrey's Dragonriders series. Tons of other choices.

The Dragonriders series has a good mix of fantasy/action in it as well. If you like that combo(as I do), I would also suggest the Maximum Ride series by James Patterson and The Named by Marianne Curley. Named has a good bit of time travel in it.

I second the Anne McCaffrey Dragonriders Pern series as it appears to fit the criteria given fairly well.
Full series is here: http://www.librarything.com/series/Drago...

Another series to recommend that features time travel _and_ religious-Christian themes is Julian May's Galactic Milieu series.
Note, they will be heavier going than Anne McCaffrey books though.

I recommend starting off first with Intervention (also available broken up into two books of The Surveillance and The Metaconcert), then follow with the trilogy of Jack the Bodiless, Diamond Mask and Magnificat. There's strong characters, some time travel and the action follows many of the characters from when they are children and teenagers through to adult.

There's also the Saga of the Exiles. That was a 4-book series that was published first, but as a teenager I found that harder going and only appreciated them after reading from Intervention onwards.

#9 - Philip Reeve is one of my absolute favourite writers of all time, but I wouldn't classify his work as sci-fi, unless you mean the Larklight series, which I haven't read yet.

If we're reccomending anything at all I have to include The Golden Globe by John Varley. An awesome, light-hearted romp across the solar system centuries from now as an actor tries to make it from Pluto to Luna in time for a production of King Lear - while pursued by a hitman.

#15 iansales

'We' aren't recommending 'ancient SciFi' your own recommendations belie that statement. You might say 'cyops' is recommending 'ancient SciFi' if you consider say anything beyond 60 years old as 'ancient'. But there is no 'We' ... the recommendations are varied. Probably the OP has read some of Aesop or had some read to her, which I would consider ancient as opposed to something 60 years old.

How about Timeline 1999 and Rogue Moon 1960? The former is 9 years old and the latter 49 years old, and the latter is in the anthologies I recommended. There are similar brushstrokes in both stories. Such classics illustrate the progression of the genre when later works are read. Including those by those you recommend.

As to the 'old' stories being 'crap' because they are old, well that's about as clever as judging a book by its cover, and the cover is after all what attracts the rollaway bug in the first place.

Message edited by its author, Mar 10, 2009, 4:08am.

The Miles Vorkosigan books by Lois McMaster Bujold are high-action sci-fi with interesting characters. I think there's a thread somewhere recommending which one to read first....

#27 - sadly, you weren't the only one recommending decades-old sf. Even Ender's Game is 24 years old. If it were a person, it would have finished university and have settled down with a job, a mortgage and a Ford Focus on the driveway. Its wife is probably even expecting a baby...

"I've never read any non-sf novels before - what do you suggest?"
"Have you tried Charles dickens or Jane Austen?"

If someone said that to you, you'd think they were an idiot. (If they suggested Dan Brown, you'd just think they had appalling taste.) So why do sf fans persist in presenting themselves as similar idiots by recommending works written more than 50 years ago? These books are not relevant anymore. Heinlein's The Puppet Masters is about McCarthyism - how many young people these days even know what that was? Starship Troopers is informed by WWII values. The Forever War was a response to it and the Vietnam War. That's history. You know, a "different country; they do things differently there".

There's also availability. There's little point in recommending a title that requires a person to go hunting through second-hand shops. A better choice would be one they could pick off the shelves of their local Waterstone's, Borders, or Barnes & Noble, etc.

#26

What a book (well series) about mobile cities that roam the country and eat up other cities isn't SF?

#30

I think you mean:

What book (well series) .... isn't SF.

#31

I am not sure why you are being such a prat.

There have been a number of stories about mobile cities - and nearly all of them have been SF (and this includes Cities In Flight which is from your hallowed Golden Age). Also anyone who has read Mortal Engines knows that it is SF - look at the tag count for the book, read the reviews.

E.g., Inverted World by Christopher Priest

#29

That’s not the point. (recommending old SF) There was no limitation in the OP that the books recommended must be from any particular era … she loves Back to the Future 2 … that’s a 20 year old film.

Have you ever read Charles Dickens? Seems to me Scrooge shows up right on time every Christmas season. The point is not everyone has the same taste in literature (thank God) and when you open up a forum for people to recommend SF (or anything else) then you’re going to get various suggestions. Maybe one or the other appeals to others in the thread and they check it out. That’s the point. There is no ‘WE’ here combined to make a definitive list of reading materials. And you made your own recommendations based on current SF … which almost certainly leans on previous works probably mentioned here.

Your analogies as to the ‘meaning’ or derivations of books like The Puppet Masters & Starship Troopers are amusing. Reminds me of an old US TV show called Cheers where one of the characters brings in some videos to watch in the bar like Invasion of the Body Snatchers and Forbidden Planet, several others, and as he starts to load them the resident psychologist says much the same as you … Invasion is about McCarthyism – Forbidden is about a Shakespeare play … on and on. Finally the guy throws the videos back in the bag and turns off the TV. The same thing is said of art … everything has some ‘hidden’ meaning or ‘alludes’ to something else. Nothing is ever what it seems.

It’s nonsense of course. The idea that Heinlein & Finney sat down and wrote novels about McCarthyism, and cloaked them in tales of ‘beings from space’, I mean really, why would they do that? ‘Possession’ didn’t begin with Heinlein and Finney, and it’s still around in books today … many books from many different angles.

That’s the problem with your ‘relevance’ theory also. Aesop (I could pick a thousand others to illustrate) wrote about the Sour Grapes. Since you don’t read anything published earlier than yesterday, let me give you the gist of the story: a fox wants some grapes in a tree but he can’t jump high enough, so he walks away saying they were probably sour anyway. So just because you can’t have something doesn’t mean it is bad, that’s your own rationalization. This has no relevance today? What has changed?

As to availability … well we have the rollaway bugs to thank for that. What is mostly available is what is mass-market. You find one CD of Rachmaninoff’s music in the book/music stores for every thousand or so CDs of Britney Spears. Want an actual transcription of Rachmaninoff playing his own music … good luck. Let’s all read trilogies of current characters, which were derived from trilogies of yesteryear characters, which were derived from legends and sagas, which were derived …. No matter how many times you send out the rollaway bug he’s going to come home with the same thing.

#32

You are far of the mark here. Your phraseology was inconsistant with the meaning you were trying to convey.

From #30 What a book (well series) about mobile cities that roam the country and eat up other cities isn't SF?

This makes no sense.

What book (well series) about mobile cities that roam the country and eat up other cities isn't SF?

This makes sense.

Er, those books were about those things. And deliberately so. That's what writers do: they tell stories which illustrate the human condition. And the human condition includes what is happening to people at the time of writing. You don't need to be a psychologist to know that. Calling it "nonsense" only shows your own ignorance.

As for Aesop... I'm familiar with many of his stories although I can't say I've ever read the book. His stories illustrate archetypal behaviour. They're allegories. Just like aliens taking over humans are an allegorical treatment of political systems taking over people. After all, why would a fox want to eat grapes? They're carnivores. And hares and tortoises don't normally challenge each other to races either. The same stories could be couched in terms more understandable to a child of today, and still embody the same meaning.

Back on topic, what other books can people recommend for the OP, who's just joined LT?

#35 I suspect Andy actually meant:

"What? A book (well, a series) about mobile cities that roam the country and eat up other cities isn't SF?"

#38

Yes that would make sense also, as would the correction I originally pointed out to him.

#37

I stand by the element of my recommendations ... try short stories. They are quick reads. You can get a broad spectrum of storylines, and if they're interesting you can go on to longer novels, maybe by the same author. Sequels and such often, though not always, are pushed by the market, and the quality deteriorates usually exponentially.

#38

Well a dropped comma actually. So in reality -
"What, a book (well, a series) about mobile cities that roam the country and eat up other cities isn't SF?" although your version works better as it is less sarcastic.

Personally I find post #35 quite amusing - a post that is criticising my grammar but which starts "You are far of the mark here."

Also to answer his point Heinlein's work was directly influenced by the shadow of McCarthy. I would say however that doesn't make books like The Puppet Masters totally worthless but if you are looking for pure entertainment (and that seems to be the situation the OP is in) then something more modern is likely to be received better.

On to a recommendations. Maybe something like Allen Steele's Coyote series would work. Straightforward adventure but fun.

#36

Uh ... no they weren't. That's an urban myth. Both Finney and Heinlein were interviewed specifically about that issue, and discounted it as 'silly'. Kevin McCarthy, who played Dr. Miles Bennell in the 56' movie was also interviewed about it and said much the same. Heinlein was hardly shy about his political beliefs, they show up in his books, but not something as trite as McCarthyism.

Both books/movies are about 'possession'. I guess the Bible is about McCarthyism, since possession is repeatedly described. I guess Voodoo is about McCarthyism since some practioners have created zombies. People that accept these arm-chair psychology - urban myth inanities are short cutting their reasoning ability.

There is certainly nothing wrong with writing new stories, and/or adapting themes and principles of the past into altogether new plots and themes. But to cast aspersions on literature of the past for no other reason than its age, and assert that somehow the human condition is something 'now' that it wasn't 'then' is not productive.

#40

You're mistaken. I did not criticize your grammar, nor the comma dropped, if you wish to phrase it that way, or the way in #38 which also works. The point was what the meaning was that you wished to convey. That's why I said "I think you mean", which gave you the opportunity to clarify your meaning if you wished to.

"You are far of the mark." is a way of saying 'you missed my point and have assumed something unintended'. I said that because you were far of the mark.

#41

It's long been understood that both The Puppet Masters and Invasion of the Body Snatchers were about Communism, and by extension McCarthyism. If this is an urban myth, then I'd like a citation, please.

People that accept these arm-chair psychology - urban myth inanities are short cutting their reasoning ability.

Which a bit rich coming from you.

#42 just to put your out of your misery: the expression is "far off the mark".

If you want to see something that actually draws on McCarthyism see the movie The Manchurian Candidate, and the character Senator John Yerkes Iselin. I didn't read the book The Manchurian Candidate, but the movie is certainly a take-off on McCarthy.

There's no 'beings from other worlds' or 'possession' in the movie.

> 28 The Miles Vorkosigan books by Lois McMaster Bujold are high-action sci-fi with interesting characters. I think there's a thread somewhere recommending which one to read first....

If you're looking to dive right into the action, I'd start with Warrior's Apprentice, which is where we meet Miles proper and have some crazy and awesome adventures.

If you prefer reading things in chronological order, start with Cordelia's Honor (or Shards of Honor and Barrayar if you're not reading the omnibus) - also good books, but with a slower pace and different flavor.

I'll also add my voice to Dragonriders of Pern - they were some of my first loves in junior high, and there's time travel to boot! I personally suggest starting with the Harper Hall trilogy, but others like starting with Dragonflight.

It's exciting to introduce someone to all your old sci fi favorites!

#43

Well if it's long understood by all means show your analogy between them. You cannot document a negative but you can a positive.

Communists don't come from pods, or crawl up your back and take over your mind. Neither did McCarthy. Nor can I recall any statement by McCarthy about off-world beings joining the Communist Party.

Yes well coming from me to you ... that's rich indeed.

So you don't understand what I meant by 'Far of the mark' either?

Message edited by its author, Mar 10, 2009, 8:40am.

My 13 year old son is just started the 4th of the 'Ender' quartet and loves them. All are readily available in paperback at our local Borders so I don't think the critique of 'old SF' has much relevance. Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit and The Chronicles of Narnia are all way older than Ender but are all greatly loved. A lot of modern YA seems pretty crappy stuff designed more to appeal to some committee at Scholastic than appeal to a young audience. Of the newer stuff I can only think of Jonathan Stroud and Eoin Colfer as being un-derivative, imaginative and well written but these are fantasy rather than SF. Perhaps people could suggest more (and get back on topic).

(Far off topic!)

#40: andyl 'a post that is criticising my grammar but which starts "You are far of the mark here." '

This is an example of the Law_of_Prescriptivist_Retaliation, that "any article or statement about correct grammar, punctuation, or spelling is bound to contain at least one eror".

Message edited by its author, Mar 10, 2009, 8:59am.

#46 Gah. The expression is far off the mark. "Far of the mark" makes no sense. It means you missed the target - the mark - and you are far away, or far off it. The "mark" has no "far", so there can be no "far of the mark". It's nonsensical.

Well if it's long understood by all means show your analogy between them. You cannot document a negative but you can a positive.

You said Heinlein and Finney had said in interviews that the books were not about McCarthyism or Communism. Which interviews? Where? Citations, please.

Nothing to do with "documenting a negative".

Communists don't come from pods, or crawl up your back and take over your mind.

You spout some right rubbish sometimes.

Re communism and The Puppet Masters, one character points out that most people in communist countries will have been taken over as well, to which another replies "How could we tell?"

#51

And that relates to McCarthyism .....??

#52 And now Heinlein, please. He, after all, was the author of the book my original point was made about...

#50

You are certainly an expert on rubbish. Don't you ever do any research yourself before forming your opinions?

Message edited by its author, Mar 10, 2009, 9:35am.

#54 Have you learned anything yet?

Puppet Masters came out in 51' McCarthy's attacks and 'McCarthyism' via ISS & SPSI began in 53'.

I doubt Heinlein had even heard of McCarthy when he wrote the book.

Message edited by its author, Mar 10, 2009, 9:48am.

I saw this thread had grown by 47 posts overnight and thought OMG Cyops and Ian are at it in here, too. You know, I think if you two didn't have each other your lives would be hardly worth living.

Why don't you set up a group and name it "Cyops and Ian Fight it Out". People who are inbterested in these bullshit battles could join and the rest of us wouldn't have to wade through pointless BS.

Who gives a f&*k whether Heinlein wrote against McCarthyism or "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" is about a Communist takeover? There are several strands of literary criticism that says the author (or screenwriters, directors, producers, cameramen, gaffers, and foley artists) have no real idea of what they are creating, they are midwives to a text (or movie) that will mean something different to each person who comes in contact with it. I think Starship Troopers is about man's never ending battle with bugs, so there.

You guys need to cool it. Cyops, nearly every post I've seen from you is calculated to start a fight, and Ian, you rise to the bait way to quickly. If Cyops throws a bunch of chum in the water and no one takes it he'll eventually stop and decide if he wants to play here, to play nice, or move on.

Cyops, we here at LT take great pride and comfort from the fact that we have a nice cozy spot on the internet for real discussion, not just a lot of shouting past each other. If you like to stir the sh*t, why not do it where sh*t stirrers are valued and leave us to our friendly discussions. There are ways of making the exact same points you make without being quite so pushy.

Ian, stop enabling this guy.

#57 +1

OP maybe Brin's Uplift series would suit.

#57 That's a bit sweeping. Neither cyops nor myself are responsible for all of those 47 posts. Nor was I wholly responsible for the "fight" on the FFC thread.

If someone posts crap, then I will call them on it. Because otherwise they will never change their behaviour. And there are others reading this thread, some of whom may not recognise it for the crap it is.

As for giving "a f&*k whether Heinlein wrote against McCarthyism or "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" is about a Communist takeover" - we're here to discuss sf about books, so yes, we do give a fuck about it. It's part of the conversation about sf books. Unless you'd sooner we all did "OMG!!!1!!! HINELINE IS SOOOO GRATE!!!11!!". But I can't believe you'd want that...

> 57

Amen.

Especially in a thread where a newer, younger member of LT is looking for sci fi books to love. Way to be encouraging.

Message edited by its author, Mar 10, 2009, 10:39am.

Rather than just put up lists of books, iansales and Cyops are showing that science fiction books are something it's possible to get passionate about.

I'd like to weigh in on the question of recommending older books--finding them doesn't always necessitate a crawl through the used book stores--not that that's a bad thing!--but sometimes a visit to the library will do, especially if the library has an inter-library loan system.

Also, given the huge trade in used books on the internet, it's often easy to find older books--on Amazon, on BookMooch, on half.com, and on other sites.

For all the bashing of Asimov (to take one example), the Foundation series and the robot books are still fun to read, in my opinion, and are suitable for young readers because they don't contain a lot of sex, violence, or inappropriate language, and the writing style is fairly simple and straightforward.

Good point on the use of libraries. That should certainly be encouraged. I don't use one at present -- I have plenty of books of my own I have yet to read -- so that's a bit of a blindspot for me.

OTOH, while the varioues web sites you name are useful for getting hold of old second-hand books... they're (perversely) more hassle than visiting your local book shop. And the books are often over-priced.

On Asimov, we'll have to agree to differ.

Well, it depends--my nearest bookshop is half-an-hour away by car, my car is broken, there's no public transportation around here, and all I have to do to get books online is click the mouse a few times and voila, the books turn up at my door.

I think Asimov may have been my first sci fi reading experience, so I am probably influenced favorably by that. But certainly I can see that others might not find his stuff enjoyable. If we didn't have different tastes, this would be a very boring site!

Now come on geneg be fair. I was playing nice here and had pointed out some very popular SF short stories for the OP when ‘somebody’ ran in and started name calling and bashing. And really should I just endure these urban myths? I much prefer to play nice, look at the continuation thread.

As for LT being nice and cozy, well maybe, especially if you agree with the flak. There’s a nice friendly book corner on the other side of the net, and you don’t see any of the stuff you see here … attacks and so on. Some here are nice. Look at jimroberts, he doesn’t agree with or me with him pretty much but we play nice. I thought I had always been respectful with you.

I’ll try and see it more from your perspective. Okay?

ejj1955 makes a good point about libraries ... I had not thought about that. My nearest library has a 'swap' rack, where you can bring in paperback and trade it for one on the rack ... lots of good reading there.

I guess my problem is impatience with interminable squabbles about nothing. As Ian pointed out SF elicits passion in some and that's okay. But it gets old to see the same arguments made over and over in the same thread.

As a sign of my good will, I will drop my ongoing problem with alternate history not necessarily being SF. Although it in no way falls into the same category of discussion.

#57 That's a bit sweeping. Neither cyops nor myself are responsible for all of those 47 posts. Nor was I wholly responsible for the "fight" on the FFC thread.

That’s true enough. I think there was even an occasional good natured exchange between iansales and myself. I even agree with him sometimes … usually after a few schnapps, then everyone can be friends. I even ordered the first movie he starred in back in 1932, he was great in the starring role ... I felt so sorry for him as the poor midget in love with the full-size trapezee star, and she was so mean to him. You have to see this movie! It's called 'Freaks'. Amazon has it, and hopefully iansales still gets some royalties.

The problem is that not everyone agrees about things like books, and there really are no authorities on the subject. Wisdom says if you poke fun at things people really enjoy sometimes they poke back.

And yes I agree that it matters whether someone is saying something factual, or just something they’ve heard. I’ve heard feedback on some of the foolishness the Dan Brown writes, and many people believe it because it’s in a book and in the book he says it’s true!

It isn’t about being goo goo over a particular author, or whether you like their work or not, it’s about the facts. The OP loves Harry Potter … I don’t get Harry Potter enough to read the books. I haven’t read the Twilight series, and probably won’t. That doesn’t make them crap … lots of people love them, and even Steven King’s opinion on them is meaningless.

Let people enjoy what they want.

Sorry but I couldn't resist ....

'Far of the mark' is in the vernacular for both sailing and surveying ... both of which I do. It is a common idiom that anyone that does these things would understand.

As an analogy ... 'wide of the mark' see http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/wide...

I apologize if the phrase was not understood here.

Er, that dictionary linked to has no entry for "far of the mark". This one does have an entry for "off the mark". I suspect your vernacular is a mispronunciation or mispelling off "far off the mark".

# 69

It's called an 'analogy' ... that's why I said 'As an analogy'. Go sailing this weekend and tell the helmsman you think he's 'far of the mark' ... I think you might get the picture then.

Not even a thanks for buying your damn movie!

I think it's a legitimate phrase, likely from the uses Cyops cites. Note, for example, http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/wide..., an entry for "wide of the mark."

Also, if one googles "far of the mark," one gets a lot of hits for this from diverse sources. (While this also happens when one googles common errors, these hits appear to be legitimate usage.)

But we sure have wandered far from the original topic.

I sailed for years and never heard the expression. It might be specifically American, though. But. Googling "far of the mark" gives 4,290 hits. Googling "far off the mark" 199,000 hits. Which suggests "far of the mark" is wrong.

And it's not an analogy either - you mean a synonym.

"Wide of the mark" likewise generates 341,000 hits; I think "far of the mark" is a variant.

LOL!

#74

I doubt it - "Wide of the mark" makes sense in English, "far of the mark" doesn't. Why would someone come up with a variant of "wide of the mark" which is so close to an existing widely used phrase? Surely a more likely source would be a mishearing of "far off the mark"?

Of course it may just be a US only usage - although I can cite use of "far off the mark" in major US newspapers such as the Washington Post and New York Times which might indicate that that is the correct usage.

I can't be sure, so I've asked a lexicographer I know.

#56

The term McCarthyism was in use in 1950. McCarthy in Feb 1950 had already started his campaign by claiming he had the names of 205 Communists working in the State Department. However, there had been paranoia about a "red plot" since the end of the war five years earlier.

In 1951, Heinlein is likely to have known of the anti-Communist worrying many. and by that time, his own politics had also swung to the right.

Far be it from me to overstep the mark and I assure everyone I have no wish to make my mark in this but the obvious meaning of 'far of the mark' is 'Mark's far'.
I know it is unusual to use far as a noun but it is not unheard of although it is usually preceded by a preposition like from and is generally in the form 'afar' - from afar.
So 'far of the mark' = Mark's distant place.

Now who Mark is we have very little information however Cyops did mention sailing so he is probably a jolly tar. In fact, since Cyops is of a European persuasion Mark may well be a mishearing of Marc and Marc is most likely a matelote.

As to the nature of Marc the matelote's distant place I think that had best be left to the likes of Noel Coward and Jean Genet.

#80: justifiedsinner

Good post.

To get back on topic, if the reader is interested in Christian-themed SF, as her profile suggests she might be, I would highly recommend A Canticle for Leibowitz, and might suggest looking at C. S. Lewis' Space Trilogy.

I'd be more hesitant to recommend Gene Wolfe. He is a Christian SF/Fantasy author, is quite difficult reading at times, but might be worth a look.

79: Even if The Puppet Masters was supposed to be an allegory for McCarthyism, that doesn't mean it isn't a good story, nor does it mean that it isn't relevant today. There have been many hysteria driven political movements since the 1950s, and the book is just as applicable to most of them as an allegory as it is to the original supposedly intended subject. And that assumes the book must be read as an allegory to be enjoyed, which I think is a dubious position.

Books usually endure for a reason. The reason is usually not because idiots keep propping them up, but because there is something in them that speaks to people who read them decades after they were published. I wasn't born until more than two decades after the McCarthy hysteria, and didn't read The Puppet Masters until the 1990s, and I found it perfectly understandable (and enjoyable).

Message edited by its author, Mar 11, 2009, 2:09am.

Hi! I follow the forum but don't often post, but the topic caught my eye.

To the OP, Ignore the conversation about old sci-fi and new that runs in the middle of this thread. Its a bit confusing. They are all good recommendations, but can be a bit heavy as an intro to Science Fiction. Don't just rely on recommendations, browse your local library or bookstore and pick up the book because it sounds interesting. My first Science Fiction books were picked up because of description.

If you are looking for easy reads, try Enders Game, the Dragonriders of Pern (the original telepathic dragons), Say Nothing of the Dog (time travel), or Old Man's War (space).

For something a bit heavier The Forever War (space, and time travel in a sense) Beggars in Spain (genetic engineering), Grass (humans vs native species on planet, plus some other stuff)

Most of these are books that I read when I first started reading Science Fiction in High School :)

The nitpicking (my own too) seems to cross threads alot. I think I 'opine' with jimroberts & geneg.

"Fogetabgoutit!'

#83 Well said.

McCarthyism is a brand of witch hunting. The essentials of witch hunting are the witches, which may or may not actually exist, the suspects, most everyone that could be a witch, the authorities doing the searching and burning, and the authorities' benefits.

Heinlein was not 'anti-communist' he was pro-democracy. He wrote about the dangers of communist and other tyrannical political systems in his stories. Many authors have. That doesn't make him a witch-hunter, or someone that would lend their talents to propping up witch-hunters.

Here's a quote:

Philip K. Dick wrote: "Several years ago, when I was ill, Heinlein offered his help, anything he could do, and we had never met; he would phone me to cheer me up and see how I was doing. He wanted to buy me an electric typewriter, God bless him—one of the few true gentlemen in this world. I don't agree with any ideas he puts forth in his writing, but that is neither here nor there. One time when I owed the IRS a lot of money and couldn't raise it, Heinlein loaned the money to me. I think a great deal of him and his wife; I dedicated a book to them in appreciation. Robert Heinlein is a fine-looking man, very impressive and very military in stance; you can tell he has a military background, even to the haircut. He knows I'm a flipped-out freak and still he helped me and my wife when we were in trouble. That is the best in humanity, there; that is who and what I love."

Lumping Heinlein in with McCarthy is not reasonable. Remember McCarthy attacked the US military ... Heinlein would have never have approved!

Good SF Spacepaw

Message edited by its author, Mar 11, 2009, 4:19am.

There's an interesting list of books that comes up using the LibraryThing tagmash feature for science fiction, time travel. See here: http://www.librarything.com/tag/science%...

Some of the books have been discussed here already. It's worth checking out and seeing the tags or reviews that people have associated to the books.

You like John Jakes, who writes sweeping historicals, Space by Michener explores the era in fiction thus science fiction. Red Mars part of series by Kim Stanley Robinson does the same. To get that sweep you need the bigger epics in the field.

Juanita Coulson had a series also. For one that many of us grew up with, the Lensmen by Doc Smith is pure space opera.

Curiously the book I was looking for and found for me by bluetyson is Space Prison, a short but very intense novel. Checking on the author Tom Godwin I found he wrote many short stories, a few of which I have read, and he also wrote The Cold Equations in 1954, which was done as a Twilight Zone episode in 1989, and a movie in 1996. A pretty good example of how an idea and a theme can endure the years.

The Cold Equations is something you can read, watch the movie, and compare. I was surprised to find it is in The Science Fiction Hall of Fame Volume 1 which I recommended earlier ... I had forgotten that.

Message edited by its author, Mar 14, 2009, 4:11am.

I would love to hear from the original poster about whether this has been helpful or horrifying or perhaps a bit of both?