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Do you want your own Edward?

Twilight Club

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1inkspot
Apr 9, 2009, 10:00am Top

There's an interesting thread on Book Talk about Twilight, and the way Edward treats Bella. It lacks the opinion of a die-hard Twilight fan though, so I wanted to ask you guys this:

Do you want your own Edward?

I don't mean a glittery vampire obviously, but rather, do you want a boyfriend who is far more beautiful and talented than you think you are, who loves you obsessively? Do you want to find someone who can just take care of you?

Some people also feel Edward is way too controlling, others just say he loves Bella but how would you feel if someone treated you the same way?

If you could give reasons for your opinion that would be great. Feel free to join in on the Book Talk discussion as well, but keep it civil - no personal insults and mindless bashing please! Everyone has their own opinion but no one's going to be interested if you can't be polite and explain why you think what you do.

Thanks!

2ravenblue
Apr 9, 2009, 10:21am Top

I find that how we relate/react to characters has alot to do with our own personal experiences. See I found Bella to be a strong female character in that she was able to get over her insecurities enough to go for the man she wanted.

I see myself to have similar insecurities when it comes to men ie liking a guy but not thinking I was good enough therefore never pursued the guy/relationship. So I actually take my hat off to Bella because she went for it!

Therefore I see that her character can also have a positive message, why not go for "Mr Perfect" which is how Edward is portrayed.

Re: question: "Could you deal with a boyfriend like that in Real Life?" - if I had the intense love that Bella had for Edward then yes. He never intentionally hurt her, if anything thats what he was trying to avoid throughout the book eg trying to leave her to avoid her being in danger.

3FFortuna
Apr 9, 2009, 7:43pm Top

Originally, taking part in the other thread, I was thinking "No, no way I'd want a real Edward." After thinking about it though... I might. I like to think I'd stand up to him a lot more than Bella does, and as long as it didn't get out of hand then him wanting to take care of me would be kind of nice. I don't want a man who lets me walk all over him, or one who just doesn't care what I do. The concern would be welcome and appreciated.

If at any point he was trying to MAKE me do something I didn't want to do instead of discuss it with me, at that point he would no longer be my boyfriend.

4kara1560
Apr 9, 2009, 8:26pm Top

1> I personally didn't think he was controlling, more rather very "clingy", or, "obsessivly caring/loving" (I can think of thousands of different ways to say this). I think whomever said Edward was "controlling", didn't REALY think of why he was acting like he was.

To answer your question: I he loved me and cared for me as much as Edward did for Bella in twilight, then..... YES, OF-COURSE! (and I wouldn't mind a sparkly vampire either ) ;)

5RebeccaAnn
Apr 9, 2009, 8:43pm Top

>4 kara1560:, Being the one who said Edward was controlling (and borderline abusive), I'd thought I'd post my reasons:

He is 100 years old and stalking a 17 year old high school girl. He creeps into her bedroom at night and watches her sleep. Now, if any 30 year old guy were to do this, no one would think it was romantic. But he's oh so gorgeous and can get away with it. This part of the book seriously disturbed me.

He constantly, consistently tells Bella what to do. She cannot go to the college of her choice. Remember that scene in the third book, first chapter? She's filling out college applications and wants to go to Dartmouth, but he disagrees. Rather than talking over the choice with her like a rational man, he instead forges her name onto another school application. He once again isn't letting her make her own decisions.

He won't let her even have her own pickup. She likes her pickup, but he wants her to have a fancy car, so they agree that once the pickup stops working, she'll let him buy her a car. Now, I know it's not specifically stated in the text, but it is strongly hinted that he did something to her car to make it not work, and the occurred immediately after their conversation. Why? How on earth does that pickup affect their relationship? That pickup is hers, not his, and he has absolutely no right to make a decision like that.

He won't let her see Jacob, not even as a friend. At one point, he gets Alice to kidnap Bella to keep her from going to Jacob. He doesn't trust her and so takes matters into his own hands. Now, if he were to talk to Bella a discuss his concerns, that would be one thing. He doesn't, because he's controlling. Bella deserves to have her own friends. That part of her life does not affect Edward and should not be his choice to make. If your boyfriend told you you couldn't hang out with a friend of yours who happened to be male, would just take it? I certainly hope not.

And I don't care if he's doing this because he "loves" Bella. You don't treat someone you really love like that. It resembles the early stage of abuse far too much for my liking. One person starts controlling their significant other. First, it's what kind of car they drive, then it's who they hang out, then it's who they're friends with, they you're threatening to knock them unconscious to abort their baby. Do you see where this is going? A lot of abusers have good intentions in mind, but that doesn't make their actions any more excusable.

6kara1560
Apr 9, 2009, 9:34pm Top

Please don't think of me as some completly irational twilight fan. I am conpletly rational and I have read your post over five times, trying to see your side of this discussion.

Fist of all, he wanted her to go to Dartmouth! She was the one who didn't want to go to dartmouth, he wanted her to have the best education she could. He thought that she was choosing a lower standard of education because she couldn't afford it and she didn't want him to pay the tuition using his own money.

The whole pickup thing is actually quite strange; In the fourth book, chapter Isle Esme, Bella stated in her head that Edwards whim to give her presents is a learned behavore (sp?). Edward's genorosity(sp?) is almost a NEED it seems, he LOVES to give her things, and HATES the fact she doesn't like when he does. When Bella agreed to let Edward get her a new car, I think he was so exstatic that he just couldn't wait until it broke down. I'm not saying that isn't quite weird, just that he kinda DID have a little of the right to give her that new car.

First of all Jacob is a werewolf and if she acidentally got him angry, he could have (mistakenly) killed her! Can't you see his side? just i wee bit?

What are you talking about "early stages of abuse"?!? Where did you get that from?!?! (please explain)

7FFortuna
Apr 9, 2009, 9:43pm Top

6, It's still her right to choose a lower standard of education. Besides, she wanted to be turned into a vampire and not go to ANY school at all! He's trying to force her to do what he thinks is best, whether she wants to or not.

Abusive relationships have been studied at length. Girls don't just go out with guys, get hit and think "Wow, lets get married!" The guys start out nice, just a little obsessive or controlling (which is interpreted as "look how much he cares,") and it escalates into real violence.

I don't think Edward would ever get that far, and I understand his motivations more after reading Midnight Sun. I think Bella would definitely be all right with him, at least physically. (What he does to her self-esteem seems pretty damaging.) I understand that they love each other. But she should stand up to him when he's forcing her to do something against her will, she should not let it slide, and she should be concerned when he tries.

8kara1560
Apr 9, 2009, 9:57pm Top

She does stand up for herself! Example(s): Bella yelling at Edward, trying to get him to tell her how he got to her so fast to ssave her life. Bella telling Edward she wants him to stay home with her during the fight even though he wants to go fight. etc.

9RebeccaAnn
Edited: Apr 9, 2009, 10:07pm Top

kara, I would never think you were irrational (well, I might if you left a post along the lines of "Edwardhe'ssohawtOMG!!11!andjacobsux!!" ;- ). I just love debating and honestly, this is a subject I feel quite strongly about. Anyways...

Here are some websites on abuse:

Early Signs of Abuse
Early Warning Signs
Emotional Abuse, Verbal Abuse: Very Early Warning Signs
Early Warning Signs of Potential Abuse

These are just a few sites. I apologize that I have no book sources. I don't own any books on abuse and the local library is closed due to Easter. You'll notice that all the sources list the following as early signs of abuse:

Controlling behavior - the need to control what you do, who you're friends with, where you go
Jealousy - over Jacob, anyone?
Possessiveness
Demands all your time - Bella is always with Edward. She even lets him sneak into her room at night so he can watch her sleep.
Rudeness to your friends - again, Jacob
Not allowing you to make your own plans - she doesn't want to go to Dartmouth but he makes her anyway
He fell for you unusually fast - Definitely fits

And yes, I realize he doesn't exhibit a lot of the other behaviors listed, but in my opinion, he exhibits enough of them to cause concern.

As for wanting her to go to Dartmouth, I completely understand him wanting her to go the best school. I would want that for my boyfriend as well. However, he crosses a line when he forges her name onto a legal document. If she doesn't want to go, he has no right to make her.

If he wants her to stay away from Jacob because she might anger him and he'll hurt her, well, then by all means he needs to get away from her as well. In fact, he's more of a danger than to her than Jacob is. How many times did she get Jacob pissed off enough to actually change? I can only recall him even feeling the change coming on once or twice. Other than that, Jacob is completely in control of himself. Edward, on the other hand, always wants to drink Bella's blood. Wouldn't that kill her? And he's always suffering from this! In the first book, he almost takes out the chemistry class just to get to Bella! When she got that papercut in the second book, his entire family almost killed her. She may not be 100% safe with Jacob, but she's no better off - safety wise - with Edward.

And while I'm on Jacob, Edward has every right to express his concern for Bella's safety when she's around Jacob. He can ask her, beg her, plead with her to stay away from him. He cannot have his sister kidnap her to keep her away from Jacob. That goes just a little too far.

10FFortuna
Apr 9, 2009, 10:13pm Top

8, I know. And I was VERY proud of her the first time she got away to see Jacob.

But never once did she say "Edward, this is not acceptable." Even when he offered to stay out of her room one night because she was "mad" at him, she can't manage it. I wouldn't want her to dump him, but if it was me there would certainly be no snuggling until the issue had been worked out. Edward is not perfect, and his word is not law. She doesn't have to always give in to what he wants and act like there's no disagreement.

11kara1560
Apr 9, 2009, 10:20pm Top

This message has been deleted by its author.

12kara1560
Edited: Apr 9, 2009, 10:21pm Top

9> Edward doesn't know how in-control Jacob is. He thinks Bella just wants to see him so much that she isn't thinking about what she was saying(perfectly plausible). Edward is in almost complete control around Bella (after a little while), the whole honeymoon part prooves that point, I think.

13RebeccaAnn
Apr 9, 2009, 10:31pm Top

Granted, I didn't get all the way through Eclipse. That's when the books started annoying me too much and after reading a description of Breaking Dawn, I just knew that book wasn't for me, so I don't know anything about the honeymoon scene. But I don't think Edward has any right to judge Jacob. It's kind of a pot calling the kettle black type thing.

"Edward is in almost complete control around Bella "
The keyword here is almost. If he's not completely in control, then what right does he have to judge Jacob?

And I know he only has her best interests at heart. I'm perfect aware of this. But put yourself in Bella's place. If you had a slightly unstable friend who could turn into a wolf and your vampire-who-might-lose-control-and-eat-you makes his sister kidnap you to keep you away from your friend, what would really do? Would you think "Gosh, he cares! How sweet!" or would you think "That manipulative SOB! He has no right to do this! I'll be friends with who I want to!" Personally, I hope it's the latter. Bella's friends are her friends and no matter what Edward thinks, he shouldn't be forcing her to stay away from anyone.

14FFortuna
Apr 9, 2009, 10:50pm Top

13, the latter is definitely what I would think.

I don't have a problem with anything Edward wants for Bella (except maybe the abortion, but I haven't finished Breaking Dawn yet. I've read summaries because I didn't think I was going to read it.) The problem is that he thinks it's all right to make her, and her opinion doesn't matter.

And kara, thank you for talking with us. I appreciate hearing your point of view on these things. :)

15kara1560
Edited: Apr 9, 2009, 11:01pm Top

13> Well, I have two answers for that last question: If I loved him as much as Bella loves Edward, and knew how much he loved me, I wouldn't think, "that manipulative SOB, etc.". I would think "he cares, how sweet!" (doesn't mean I wouldn't have a tiney voice cussing him out) ;) But, if I didn't realy like him that much and he felt even less for me, it wouldn't just be a little tiney voice, it would be my actual voice cussing him all the way out of the continental US !!!!!!!!!

16FFortuna
Apr 9, 2009, 11:19pm Top

The trouble is that Bella has no way of knowing how much Edward cares about her, other than his actions, which could also be construed as Not Good. We as readers know that he cares, she only knows that he says he does.

I think maybe under the circumstances we're discussing, she might not be right to just cuss him out or whatever. He is concerned. But she should do something other than submit and think "well, he loves me so he's excused," or whatever's going through her head. And since she'd already expressed her opinion and he didn't listen, she should have escalated rather than backed down.

Like I said, I was proud of her when she ran away to see Jacob. But Edward's word is not a law she just has to either accept or break. Edward's word is his opinion, which she has every right to contradict, and she should NEVER have to "escape" from Edward, for ANY reason. She shouldn't have to run away to be able to visit her best friend.

17RebeccaAnn
Apr 9, 2009, 11:28pm Top

"She shouldn't have to run away to be able to visit her best friend."

*applause* Beautifully stated. I couldn't have said it better myself!

Where are the other pro-Twilighters? I feel this debate is more of a gang-up on kara (who's holding her end up mighty well ;- ), but it would be more fun if we could get some differing viewpoints added in...

18Muse_Freak1312
Apr 10, 2009, 2:03am Top

I'm pretty pro-Twilight, but it's very hard to pick a side here because both parties have extremely good arguments. While Twilight is a beautiful romance story, it is a little controlling how in New Moon, Bella just wanted to give Jacob a hug and Edward wouldn't let her. I personally would have liked to see her to keep some of her stubborness in Breaking Dawn that we see at the start of Twilight. So again, I can see both sides but I am a hopeless romantic, so I guess I would want my own Edward, I just wouldn't let him boss me around so much.

19G.A.B.E
Apr 10, 2009, 3:07am Top

Yes, I love Twilight so much but no, I don't want my own Edward. Someone that perfect would terrify me and I wouldn't feel good enough for me and then I'd start hating myself, so no, I'd want someone like me; flawed but with a nice personality.

And about Edward and Jacob; I don't think it's jealously, you have to understand that Jake is a young werewolf, so much more dangerous than Edward, a vegetarian vampire with a century's practice of abstaining from human blood, sure, it was a little clingy (not possessive!) but imagine if you were a normal human guy and your girlfriend wanted to hang out with a person who did drugs. You wouldn't say, "SURE! You go RIGHT ahead and hang out with him/her." NO WAY! I'd try everything in my power to stop her from doing that. But instead of a drug addict, you have a young werewolf with poor self-control.

20ravenblue
Apr 10, 2009, 5:36am Top

Wow, this thread has really taken off in the last 24hrs which is great!

re: 19 - I agree, Edward has a right to be concerned with Bella hanging out with Jacob. Not only the danger part (emphasised through the pack leaders girlfriend all scared up when he lost it!) but violence aside, would you want your boyfriend/girlfriend hanging out with someone who totally lusts after them and always tried to make a move on them? I know I wouldn't like it and I don't think my husband would either.

21RebeccaAnn
Apr 10, 2009, 12:26pm Top

>19 G.A.B.E:, But with the whole "her blood sings to him" thing - for the life of me I cannot remember if this has an actual name or not - he could barely keep a grip on himself. I don't know if any of you have read Midnight Sun, but he actually contemplates killing everyone in Chemistry just to get to Bella. If she hadn't had extra good smelling blood, then yes, I'd believe she'd be safer than with Jacob. He's had a century of practice being a vegetarian vampire, but I don't think that helped him a whole lot when it came to Bella.

I also see what you're saying about the drug addict part of it and I admit, I hadn't really thought of it that way before. I still don't agree with it, mostly because Jacob's not willingly doing anything wrong. He's not willingly turning into a wolf, it's just a part of him just like Edward's vampire-ness is a part of Edward. And again, with Bella having blood that sings to Edward and with Jacob being a new werewolf, she's in equal danger from both of them in my opinion. It honestly feels more racist to me. Edward doesn't like werewolves so she shouldn't be with Jacob, but Jacob doesn't like vampires so she shouldn't be with Edward.

>20 ravenblue:, "would you want your boyfriend/girlfriend hanging out with someone who totally lusts after them and always tried to make a move on them?"

This is honestly why I think Edward doesn't want her around Jacob. He's jealous, plain and simple. If this is the case though, does he really have any right to keep her away from Jacob by force? This is where he's get too controlling for my tastes. See post 9 by me. It lists some early signs of abuse and being over controlling and isolating one from one's friends are two of those signs. It's a little worrying, I think.

Disclaimer: I don't think Edward actually is abusive and I don't think Meyer wanted him to be, but he comes off that way and his relationship is romanticized and idealized very much in the Twilight saga, books directed to a young, impressionable audience. That's a big part of why I don't like the books. They make a very dangerous relationship (even if it was unintentional) look like it's the perfect relationship to be in. I just thought I should explain why I'm so against the books.

22FFortuna
Apr 10, 2009, 3:57pm Top

Generally agreeing with 21 here... I understand all the reasons why Edward doesn't want her with Jacob. And Jacob has pretty much all the same reasons against Edward.

The thing that bothers me more than anything else is that Bella tells Edward what she wants, about schools, Jacob, whatever, and Edward just doesn't care. He makes her do what he wants instead. If someone did that to me, I wouldn't think they loved me.

It's called "la tua cantante," by the way. Sort of like "your singer" in Italian... speaking to Edward, you would say "Bella is 'la tua cantante.' "

23RebeccaAnn
Apr 10, 2009, 4:44pm Top

Yes! I knew it was something in another language! I remember that one Volturi vampire in New Moon saying it around the same time when they took all the tourists underground to eat them. Very creepy scene. Gives me goosebumps just remembering it...

24G.A.B.E
Apr 10, 2009, 8:27pm Top

20: Agreed! :)

21: Yes, I have read Midnight Sun but the big thing is .. he DIDN'T! He held his breath for an hour and escaped town for a few days! That shows ALOT of self-control and respect for the human race.

Please note: When I write in caps it's too emphaise the word, I would write in italics but I'm too lazy! So please don't think I'm shouting!

25FFortuna
Apr 10, 2009, 8:38pm Top

24, it does show excellent control. But Jacob has never hurt her either. He's visibly struggled not to get angry, just like Edward, and succeeds in staying calm like Edward does. Bella is in no more danger with him than with Edward, but Edward won't believe her when she says so.

Incidentally... there are drug addicts whose lives have been saved by their friends not leaving their sides and being there to help them. Bella was concerned about hurting Jacob's feelings by abandoning him and she missed him, so she wanted to go and see him.

26G.A.B.E
Apr 11, 2009, 12:04am Top

^ Good point :) But he did slip up, when he kissed Bella and Bella tried to fight him off but he didn't budge. I know, they're teenagers but I wouldn't have EVER spoken to him if he did that to me! But that's just me! :)

27FFortuna
Edited: Apr 11, 2009, 1:33am Top

26, of course. I would NOT be seeing him again without a shotgun handy! At that point, I might be saying "Okay, Edward, if he makes a move then sic 'em."

That seemed like a pretty random plot point to me, though, the same as Edward's random change of heart halfway through the book. Up until then I'd seen no foreshadowing of the sudden turn Jacob was about to take. I wouldn't blame Edward if he was telling Bella "I told you so," although I'd probably want to smack him if he did.

That brings up an interesting point though... maybe Bella would've been better off if she'd stopped seeing him like Edward wanted. I wouldn't want to her to just ignore her friend, and Edward should not be making her do anything. I don't think Edward saw anything in Jacob other than "the wolf who wants Bella," either.

But positing an alternate turn of events: Suppose Edward said "Bella, I've been watching Jacob and listening to his thoughts and I can see that he's going to become more aggressive toward you emotionally and hurt you, and I'm worried." What might Bella have done then? Knowing her, I think everything would have played out exactly the same way. She wouldn't see a warning like that any differently than Edward's assertions that wolves are violently dangerous in general. But a lot of problems might be solved if Edward could learn to communicate with her on an equal-to-equal basis, hear what she wants, say what he wants and not be a dictator... likewise maybe if Bella was a little more discerning and less of a doormat. (See discussion in the other thread.)

Of course, I spent the whole book banging my head against a wall and wishing Bella would just make up her mind and pick one and save everyone some grief...

ETA: Anyone know where some Jacob fans might be found? It seems like there might be another facet to the discussion.

28RebeccaAnn
Apr 11, 2009, 1:40am Top

>27 FFortuna:, I heard a rumor that the sudden personality changes in Edward and Jacob in Eclipse were due to the fact that Stephenie Meyer was upset that some people were favoring Jacob over Edward. She wanted to do something that would make fans dislike Jacob and sympathize more with Edward, Bella's intended. I don't know how credible this rumor is, but I thought it fit well with their sudden personality shifts...

29G.A.B.E
Apr 11, 2009, 2:32am Top

27: I know! I just wanted her to choose one and be done with it!

28: Sounds interesting but probably not true! :)

30inkspot
Apr 11, 2009, 6:30am Top

When I first encountered Jacob in Twilight, I instantly preferred him. He was friendly and polite - so unlike Edward's arrogance. He was open and honest with Bella too, whereas Edward sees no reason for this, and instead acts as though Bella is lucky he's telling her anything at all. And Jacob had a hobby - making cars. At that point there was nothing interesting about Edward except his looks and the assumption that he was interesting. In fact the only reason Bella remains interested in Edward rather than switching to Jacob is that Edward is better looking, wealthier, and older. Talk about materialist. Perhaps Meyer thought looks and money were enough to make Edward the better man?

About the debate on whether Edward is more dangerous than Jacob: Edward's self-control is based largely on his relative isolation and avoidance of dangerous situations, like skipping Biology when they're blood-typing. He keeps saying he's dangerous and it's true. I know Edward doesn't give in to his bloodlust and kill Bella, but it was just as much a possibility as Jacob hurting Bella. What would have happened if Bella hadn't been turned eventually? IMO, she was always on thin ice with Edward.

31All.Time.Lunatic.xX
Edited: Apr 11, 2009, 6:54am Top

Sorry, but I have to disagree. It's cool that you prefere Jacob, thats your opinion but Bella doesn't just like Edward for his looks, money or his age. The connection between Edward and Bella wasn't made as such, they were just drawn to each other, even if Edward was the ugliest, poorest person on this Earth Bella wouldn't have been able to control the way she felt about him, thats how love works.

And Edward has many hobbies, music expescially(sp?). Only he pursues(sp?) his hobby at night whilst others sleep, he studies music. And the reason Edward acts as if Bella is lucky he tells her things is that he is a vampie.And has spent over ninety years shutting people out and being alone, that when finally someone comes along that isn't afraid of him, he feels he needs to whatch what he says around her.In order to not blow his secret, which she discovers on her own anyway.

There is more of a possiblility that Edward would hurt Bella, or any other human as he can smell their blood and sense their fear. Jacob is just extremely strong and knows to be gentle with Bella. But in saying that Edward is stronger than Jacob and has to be even more gentle with Bella because one simple hug or bump could break her ribs or even kill her.

And finally, if Bella had never been turned Edward would have left. As much as it nearly killed them both in New Moon he would have done it anyway. But there is no chance of that happening b/c the only reason he did turn her is b/c she was seconds away from death and a life without Bella to him is no life at all.

:)

32_Zoe_
Edited: Apr 11, 2009, 9:08am Top

even if Edward was the ugliest, poorest person on this Earth Bella wouldn't have been able to control the way she felt about him, thats how love works.

I might be more convinced about this if Bella didn't spend all her time thinking about how hot Edward was. When does she think about his personality?

That's why I prefer Jacob to Edward: Bella likes being with Jacob because he makes her happy, and she likes being with Edward because there's a strong physical attraction. It seems obvious to me which is the foundation for a better relationship.

33inkspot
Apr 11, 2009, 10:17am Top

"I might be more convinced about this if Bella didn't spend all her time thinking about how hot Edward was. When does she think about his personality?"

Exactly. If Bella was just naturally drawn to Edward, why would she have to mention how hot he was at all? If their love was based purely on an inexplicable attraction to one another, Meyer would have done better to make Edward as plain and boring as Bella thinks she is, thereby emphasising how they are fated to be together. But diminishing his beauty would diminish the appeal of the novel. Also, I know Edward has hobbies, but at the point when Bella meets Jacob, she doesn't know anything about Edward's interests.

I can't think of any reason that Bella chooses Edward over one the many other guys who want her, except for his looks and mystique. She doesn't seem interested or even ready for a relationship. But Edward is so beautiful she can't resist him, regardless of how bad he makes her feel about herself, how arrogant he is, or most importantly, how dangerous and unhealthy their relationship is. Edward is a drug, and Bella seems addicted to him, rather than in love.

One thing about their relationship is that they never seem to have fun together. They don't laugh much or simply enjoy each other's company and conversation. Everything is about intense pleasure, pain, and longing. There's so much nervousness and restraint as well, with Edward switching very abruptly from amusement to fury to sadness and back, making Bella anxious or angry. I know relationships, for teenagers especially, can be awkward and frustrating, but this one goes too far.

34RebeccaAnn
Apr 11, 2009, 12:22pm Top

>33 inkspot:, "Edward is a drug, and Bella seems addicted to him, rather than in love."

The same is true for Edward. In fact, he even says that outloud to Bella. It's something along the lines of "You're like my own personal brand of heroine."

35FFortuna
Apr 11, 2009, 1:08pm Top

I should point out that, while a lot more is said about Jacob's personality and interests, Bella is still fixated on how much she likes his hair, smile, and wonderful muscles...

All of that about Jacob is true. But we should remember that love isn't itemized... You don't make a list of all the good things someone does for you and decide you love them. You either love them or you don't. (That doesn't mean you have to stay with someone if they're bad for you... but just because you leave them doesn't mean you don't love them.) One guy may have given her more compliments or more gifts or whatever, but that may have nothing to do with who she loves more.

Posting the same sentiment in both threads.

36G.A.B.E
Apr 12, 2009, 12:23am Top

31: Well said, Leah! Especially the part about Edward shutting people out! :)

Hmm, you say Bella only loves Edward b/c he's beautiful but then, Jacob is beautiful too.

And about "You're like my own personal brand on heroine", that was said about her scent, not her. It was said when he was explaining that her scent to him was like the finest brandy to a recovering alcoholic, so you are taking this "addiction" out of context.

33: About how they never laugh together, totally untrue. I can recall them laughing together alot. One I remember right now is when Bella said she'll move wherever she has to when she becomes a vampire to keep their secret safe, even to Antartica (sp?) to which Edward replies, "Penguins. Lovely." And they chuckle together.

All things aside, what is the one thing that first draws you to a person? No lying. It's their looks. It sounds shallow and superficial but it isn't. You don't know them, so the first thing that gets you interested is their looks. Simple as that. You aren't going to go into a roomful of people you don't know and go straight away and talk to a plain, boring-looking guy, are you? No. You're going to see the best-looking person there and strike up a conversation. It's nature. The laws of attraction.

32: She thinks alot about how Jacob looks too, always wishing she had his beautiful, russet skin. But she doesn't think about how beautiful he is as much b/c she's in love with Edward. No matter what, she'd always choose Edward.

About Edward's hobbies and Bella never knowing about him, wasn't one thing he did for her, inspired by her, was write Bella's Lullaby? Which he continued to hum to her to get her to fall asleep?

And Edward's mood swings, of course you're gonna be a bit rusty on feelings if you haven't felt for over a century, his whole life. He has never felt this way before and to feel this way about a human who's blood smells a thousand times sweeter than other's, I'm sure he's going to be going through a million different feelings in one second.

37FFortuna
Apr 12, 2009, 1:18am Top

Some good points, 36. I do disagree a bit with your second one though... maybe if you're gorgeous too you pick the most gorgeous guy in the room to talk to. The rest of us find someone who looks inviting and go talk to them, no matter what they look like. We may NOTICE the most gorgeous guy first, but most gorgeous high school guys I know only talk to cheerleaders. And even if his looks were the first thing that drew Bella to Edward (and it looks like they were, pun incidental), she still should've gotten past them a bit by now to mention something about how nice he is to her or how much they have in common or something.

I do remember that Edward and Bella talk to each other quite a lot though, although most of their conversations aren't written out. They spent the first two or three days as a couple practically grilling eachother on their favorite things and family histories and whatnot, and don't I remember something about them mostly just talking while he's in her room at night, especially before his control is good enough to make out with her a lot? I can't remember specific instances of that though, so I may be getting confused.

38G.A.B.E
Apr 12, 2009, 1:28am Top

37: Good point too about the drawing thing. Hmm. Maybe you go to a more superficial school than I do (no offence, intended!). And I am in Australia so there are no jocks or cheerleaders here. But most of the guys at my school are pretty decent guys :)

And yep, they spent pretty much three days just asking random questions like, "Your favourite colour?" "Your favourite gemstone." "How is your relationship with your mum?" "How is Phil?" Blah, blah, blah.

39FFortuna
Apr 12, 2009, 2:05am Top

I'm homeschooled, graduating next month, and most of the guys in my class are neither jerks nor gorgeous! :D I'm also a YA librarian though, so a good portion of my job is spent hanging out with other teenagers, and there are distinct differences between jocks/cheerleaders and normal folks (the majority). It's not like there's no overlap, but most average girls would be too nervous to approach the hottest guy in the room. (Sometimes because he's a jerk and wouldn't talk to them, sometimes just because he's already got a girlfriend or two.) That might tie in to what someone was saying at the top of the thread about Bella being strong for going after what she wanted?

40G.A.B.E
Apr 12, 2009, 4:10am Top

^ Homeschooled, that sounds interesting :) And I do think Bella is a really strong person :)

41kara1560
Apr 12, 2009, 3:18pm Top

39> I used to be homeschooled just last year!

I have been missing out on the conversation because I came down with a realy bad fever, but now I'm back! :D

42inkspot
Apr 12, 2009, 3:52pm Top

Re: conversations between Bella and Edward
Those random questions about family and favourites are more like interviews than conversations. They're learning about each other, but not having a discussion for example, discussing what is they like about their favourite books, food, movies, etc. or they talk about their relationship. I find it hard to imagine the two of them having a detailed discussion like the one in this thread for example. Then again, such discussions probably wouldn't add much to the plot, so I concede that my point wasn't all that valid.
ITO laughing together: they often laugh briefly at each other's jokes yes, but overall the tone of their interaction is fairly serious - there's often mention of how dangerous Edward could be for Bella or something. I can't picture them just hanging out and having a laugh (as opposed to a few chuckles here a there). Again though, this would probably just detract from the story, so I'll drop it, but for me there's just too much pain and frustration inherent in their relationship.

36: You're right about people being attracted to looks first, but as mentioned in 37, Bella should get over it after a while. Physical beauty isn't something a good relationship can be based on. It's only in this fantasy that it seems possible because Edward's beauty will never fade and it's powerful enough to keep Bella enthralled and override any flaw he might have.

40: Why do you think Bella is strong? To me she seems weak, not to mention neurologically challenged. I don't think pursuing Edward counts as a strength - she can't resist going after him, no matter what she thinks of herself.

43inkspot
Apr 12, 2009, 3:56pm Top

39: Apologies for the digression, but I'm curious: how does homeschooling work? Who teaches you and what kind of qualifications do they need? You mentioned the guys in your class, so I assume you meet with a larger group every now and then. How often does that happen?

44FFortuna
Apr 12, 2009, 6:09pm Top

Okay, brief digression to explain homeschooling. :)

Those of you not in the US, it's a point of a lot of debate here whether or not homeschooling should be allowed. A lot of people think we either "deserve better education" or that it just isn't fair somehow. Unfortunately it works differently for everyone who does it, so it can be hard to defend for the rest of us because of some hillbilly family that screwed up.

In my city there are three or four large "homeschool groups" and this is how they work. There is a school office, just like any other school, and we are all required to file records at the end of every year showing that we've completed all the work we're expected to. My group's office is actually in a huge building that's a public school all week and a church on the weekend.

I'm mostly self-motivated and all my parents have to do is hand me a list of stuff to do and some textbooks or whatever and I'll get it done. Other parents, or my parents with my siblings, will actually sit down and do the teaching ("if I have this many blocks and add this many, how many do I have?" "A sentence has to have a noun, verb...") and make sure the homework gets done. ("You are going to sit here and do this page of math problems. Period.")

Of course, in high school and even middle school, the parent may not understand chemistry or algebra or literature. Or we don't have a chemistry lab in our kitchen. For those things either some parent who does understand has a class for a year, meeting at that huge building where the office is or somewhere else we negotiate, or we work something out with video courses and do labs at a science center, or some third option.

Some examples: a high school chemistry teacher held a class after public school ended twice a week last year expressly for homeschoolers. Not just my group, but any homeschooler who wanted to sign up. I go to a ballroom dance class every week that's the same, any high school homeschooler can show up and hang out. My sister takes a literature class with about ten other kids once a week taught by a mom who used to be a literature major. My sister also takes 5-6 hours of ballet a week and wins Celtic harp awards in her spare time. Last summer I got a scholarship to a local community college to take two dual-enrollment courses over the summer. My field trips are organized by grade level in the group, so even if I wasn't taking any classes one semester I'd still see all my buddies every few weeks, and hey, we all have each other's phone numbers if we want to hang out.

Every other year we're all required to go to a public school and take achievement tests to make sure we're learning everything we ought to be, and we can be audited (which is why we keep all those records at the office). My group is large enough to be part of some kind of homeschool society (I forget the name) that has lawyers to call if anyone tries to sue us.

So, basically, I take all the classes I need and various extras just for fun, for most "classes," video courses or textbook work, I can do the work whenever I want as long as it gets done. I can sleep as late as I want, wear pajamas all day, hang out with my friends if I want or be by myself if I'm feeling grumpy. I've been working at the library in one form or another for four and a half years, because I can rearrange my school schedule. Two summers ago I spent a month in Guatemala at language school for Spanish 3, flew by myself because my passport came later than the rest of the class's, came back nearly fluent.

Basically, I'm in heaven! :D If I gushed too much and didn't actually answer somebody's question, feel free to ask.

45kara1560
Apr 13, 2009, 2:31pm Top

42> (I know you were talking to XcullenPrideX, but I would like to give my opinion too :) (sp?) ) I think Bella is a strong person because, who other than a strong person would have the guts to run away from a bunch of vampires (who are holding you hostage because a certain boyfriend doesn't want you to become dog food) with your best friend/werewolf?

46FFortuna
Apr 13, 2009, 3:46pm Top

45, I'm not sure I understand you. How does running away take strength?

47ibetonalice2
Apr 13, 2009, 4:04pm Top

44: I love your life. I'm extremely jealous.

48inkspot
Edited: Apr 13, 2009, 6:30pm Top

45: You're quite welcome to give your opinion kara :) It keeps the discussion lively.

I can't really comment on that particular episode. As I mentioned in the other post, I only read Twilight. FFortuna asks a good question though: where is the strength in running away? Bella is old enough to make her own decisions, and should make this clear to the vampires 'holding her hostage'. If however, there's no chance of them respecting her wishes, then by all means, she should try and escape. But then she should also want nothing to do with Edward - how can she stay with someone who does things like have her held hostage?

On the whole I think Edward often treats Bella with disrespect and arrogance, and a stronger person would have stood up for herself and demanded that he change his ways. If he refused, she should have left him. Whatever his good intentions, he has no right to take away her freedom or privacy. The fact that he does things like eavesdrop on her conversations, break into her home, and force his choice of college and car upon her, is disgusting, especially since none of this is called into question. Edward's power and beauty always excuses his behaviour.

If Twilight were a realist story, Edward would be a rich, powerful man who could do what he wanted and order Bella around because she was poor, and without him she'd have to remain in poverty. No one would think it was romantic - they'd call it oppression.

Edit: Thanks for the info on homeschooling, FFortuna!

49RebeccaAnn
Apr 13, 2009, 10:54pm Top

O.O

I got involved in a book over the past couple days and come back to see 14 new messages! Wow! This thread has really taken off.

>48 inkspot:, I'm inclined to agree with a lot of what you just said. He does disrespect her (in my opinion) and gets away because he's just too damn pretty to cast aside.

Honestly, the real reason the Twilight saga bugs me isn't because it's anti-feminist. Let's face it, a lot of women still allow themselves to be treated like this. What bugs me is Meyer idealizes this kind of behavior in Twilight. She tells her readers "It's okay to let a guy completely tell you what to do in every aspect of your life! He only cares! It's romantic!"

Now, I read a lot of fiction that doesn't focus on happy stuff. My favorite author is Stephen King. I like horror. I like mystery. Good behavior isn't always in the majority here. There are a lot of people dying and getting hurt. Those that aren't getting hurt are usually the one's doing the hurting. But that behavior isn't idealized. It isn't "prettied up" and made to look promising. It's meant to be horrific, and I can handle that. If all literature was just perfect people in perfect relationships living perfect lives - well, that would get boring fast. But Edward's behavior is unacceptable. I strongly believe this. And it pains me when, thinking his behavior so horrific, I see all these teen girls gushing over how romantic Edward is and how much they would love to have him as a boyfriend (and, while the pro-Twilighters on this thread are reasonable and intelligent, I have seen a few threads out there, usually gushing about Edward, that really make me question the standards of education today. I'm sorry if you find this flag worthy, but that's honestly how I feel).

I think the Twilight saga would be a lot better if Edward were to be knocked off his pedestal as the perfect guy and shown for what he really his: a pretty boy with control issues. He can still be a great person, but those flaws need to be known. You can't gloss over them and pretend he's perfect. Not only does it make him a boring character - which I always felt he was to begin with - but it leaves the reader believing, if he/she doesn't question what he/she is reading but accepts it at face value, that Edward's control issues are charming and cute and romantic.

That's what really bugs me about Twilight.

50ibetonalice2
Apr 14, 2009, 7:54am Top

We're not going to flag you for your opinion lol.
I understand where your coming about Edward. I am Team Switzerland(which is both Team Edward and Team Jacob) and in the beginning of Eclipse you're right Edward is very controlling, he won't let Bella see Jacob and they are best friends, but think about it..If you had a boyfriend do you think he would want you hanging out with someone he knows you like and could love? I doubt it. Then, in the middle of the book he lightens up and he and Jacob sort of become friends because Edward wants what's best for Bella. He even lets her make her decision about him and Jacob and lays there while she cries. He truely loves her and most people would kill for a guy to love them like that.
And even in Breaking Dawn Edward excepts Jacob into the family as his son.
I see what you mean though..

51G.A.B.E
Apr 14, 2009, 11:11pm Top

I agree with Alice. I get that Edward is controlling but their vampires and werewolves, I would react to Jacob the same way if I was Edward. As Alice said, I wouldn't want my girlfriend hanging out with someone who loved her as much as I did and there was a chance (no matter how slim) she might return those feelings. And with that, there's the issue that Jacob is a werewolf and a young one with that. Werewolves are dangerous too, Emily can stand testimony for that. And I know that Jacob would rather die than hurt Bella. But he would also rather die than stay away from her. So he's indesicive (sp?). And so is Bella. She can't fully live with Jacob and Edward and neither can she fully live without them. So the action falls to Edward, who, as the boyfriend of the girl who is in love with both him and another guy, he chooses to try to force her away from Jacob. Which, is a natural instinct.

52RebeccaAnn
Apr 15, 2009, 12:24am Top

I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again. I completely understand Edward wanting Bella to stay away from Jacob. Jacob really likes (possibly loves?) Bella and Bella may have feelings for him as well, though we're only shown the friendship part of that once Edward returns. If my boyfriend was hanging out with a girl who I knew liked him and would try to persuade him to leave me, I'd be upset. I'd likely beg and plead with him to stay away from her, maybe even throw a temper tantrum and get angry. But I would never get my brother to kidnap him so he couldn't see that girl. That goes above and beyond what's appropriate. I don't have a problem with what he feels. That's normal behavior to anyone who feels someone else is moving in on their significant other. His reaction to that, however, is not normal.

Jacob's dangerous - no one's contesting that fact. But so is Edward. However, Jacob's only a real threat when he gets angry (and remember - he did calm himself down around Bella) whereas Edward always wants to eat Bella. Though he, too, can control himself around her, I'd say the constant hunger is much more dangerous than the occasional fit of anger. By that logic, Edward is much more of a danger to Bella than Jacob. And besides, if they both seriously wanted to keep Bella out of complete danger, the smart thing would be for both of them to just leave her alone.

And yes, back when I liked Twilight (which was before I got about halfway through the second book), I was Team Jacob. I never liked Edward. I think Meyer focused a bit too much on his looks and forgot to give him a personality, except when he was bossing Bella around. I spent most of the book being alternately bored with him or pissed off at him. *apologizes profusely to those who like Edward*

53FFortuna
Apr 15, 2009, 1:58am Top

52, Edward did try to leave Bella alone. I think in Midnight Sun they talk about how the attempt just drove him crazier and if he stayed away long enough he'd lose control and go chasing after her to kill her, but if he stayed he'd get acclimated? I'm not sure if that was in there somewhere or not, but I think it was.

And of course you have New Moon in which he DOES leave her, and doesn't come back. They only get back together because Bella throws herself on him. Even at first, he wanted to stay away but Bella insisted. Jacob's never proposed staying away, always maintained that she's completely safe with him (but not Edward.)

I just want to defend where defense is due, not everything Edward's done.

54G.A.B.E
Apr 15, 2009, 2:36am Top

52: I think Edward is less of a threat, even though he is constantly hungry, he has had over a century's worth of practice abstaining from human blood, unlike Jacob who not only exposed himself to Bella when he was only days old and (as FFortuna says) has never brought up the idea of leaving her. Through this, Jacob is selfish and even though he loves Bella, wants to keep her safe, blah, blah, blah, they are only words in the end b/c he will never keep himself away from her, even if that means that she could die.
And as FFortuna said again, Edward DID leave her, he SHOWED, that in the end, he loves her the most b/c he can leave her. He loves her more that his own selfish needs, unlike Jacob.
So at the end of the day, Edward loves her more. Jacob can say how much he loves her, wants to keep her safe but actions are worth a thousand words.
With the simple action of leaving her, Edward proved his love for Bella. He has constantly tried to push her away, first in Twilight with the six or eight weeks of hostile behaviour and then again in New Moon by ultimately leaving her.
Of course, leaving her was like shooting her through the head but it was the thought that counts. He left her b/c he knew, without him, she'd be safe - but of course, then, he didn't know about the werewolves just as dangerous as his kind.
And about the kidnapping, Bella sort of consented it. Jasper (or Edward for that manner) would have never taken Bella against her will. If she kicked up a fight, they would have left her alone but she went willingly enough.
And Edward's overprotectiveness stems from the fact that Bella is the girl that he's waited a century for. Imagine that you were Edward, your life was a moonless night (I know I'm quoting New Moon here but it fits) with little points of light and reason, going on like that for a century - one hundred years - and then, suddenly, the girl you've waited for comes into your life and she wants and loves you but you can't have her, imagine the internal struggle, to either have the girl you've wanted for one hundred years or stay away from her b/c she's your own personal siren.
In the end, it's Bella's fault. She is the greediest, most selfish person in the books. She kept Edward with her, dismissing his warnings and hostile behaviour and then kept Jacob with her, even after she knew he loved her, even after she knew he was a werewolf. She's the one that should be blamed. If it wasn't for her selfish wanting then Edward wouldn't be so overprotective and Jacob wouldn't be constantly hurting. But she's human. And that's her biggest flaw.

55kara1560
Apr 16, 2009, 1:02am Top

46> I think it would take strength to overcome the fear of coming home to FURIOUS vampireS just to spend an hour or two with your best friend.

56skidney1
Apr 16, 2009, 11:04am Top

I wish i had my own Edward.....

57RebeccaAnn
Apr 16, 2009, 11:47am Top

>54 G.A.B.E:

Ok, I concede that of the two magical beings, Edward is the only one who attempted to stay away. But that's to be expected. He is, as has been pointed out numerous times on this thread, a century old. Jacob's sixteen-eighteen years old, depending on what book you're reading. I would expect him to be a bit immature. I guess in writing it that way, Meyer did effectively portray the different levels of maturities in Edward and Jacob.

I'll also admit your second to last paragraph has me thinking. It's a good argument for Edward and I see where he's coming from now, but his behavior still scares me. I still wish Bella had stood up to him more, rather than consenting to his controlling behavior. I still don't agree with the way he acts towards Bella. Though sometimes he acts normal, he treats her as an object rather than a person (in my eyes) more often than I care for.

As I've stated before, my biggest problem is the romanticizing of his behavior. We all have flaws, but no one who treated his girlfriend like Edward does in the real world would get away with it. Edward does though, and Meyer writes it almost as if he gets away with it because of his looks.

FYI: Sadly, due to finals here at college, I likely won't be spending too much time on LT. I'll be back in a few weeks though! Happy debating without me!

58asian1234
Apr 16, 2009, 8:22pm Top

I've noticed that there are many "Edward" topics...

59G.A.B.E
Apr 16, 2009, 8:28pm Top

57: Yes, I have to agree with you. He doesn't treat her too good at times.

And have fun (if you can :D) with your exams! Good luck! :)

60FFortuna
Apr 16, 2009, 9:37pm Top

54, I agree that it's pretty much Bella's fault. I feel like Edward would be able to fix his problems if she only pointed them out to him and said they weren't acceptable.

57, addendum... they can and do get away with it. They're called "abusive husbands" when it goes on long enough.

61BananaFone
Apr 17, 2009, 11:41am Top

58: I've noticed that. I've been scrolling down the list of Posts and there are a lot of posts that have Edward in it. Lol :D

62G.A.B.E
Apr 17, 2009, 8:02pm Top

^ I have to confess something: I've fallen out of love with Edward, into love with RPattz and then in love with Jace Wayland (or Lightwood) from another book series. I don't love Edward anymore!

63ibetonalice2
Apr 18, 2009, 12:18am Top

I LOVE JACE WAYLAND/LIGHTWOOD/MORGENSTERN/HERONDALE :):)

64G.A.B.E
Apr 18, 2009, 4:23am Top

Same, you took the words right out of my mouth :D

65kara1560
Apr 19, 2009, 2:32pm Top

62> I think I'm going in the oposite of you, (Losing love for RPattz and into love with Edward (( I can't say anything about lightwood or Jace Wayland because I don't know them)))

66RebeccaAnn
Apr 19, 2009, 2:59pm Top

58, 61 Well, the name of the thread is "Do you want your own Edward?" It would stand to reason there would be a lot of posts about him.

...Back to writing papers...

67G.A.B.E
Apr 19, 2009, 7:23pm Top

56: Funny Kara. :) No, I fell OUT of love with Edward and INTO love with RPattz and INTO love with Jace Wayland/Lightwood/Herondale. They are the same guy but he has a lot of last names and if you EVER read the books, you'll know why. ;)

68FFortuna
Apr 19, 2009, 7:50pm Top

Someone tell me what book this Jace Wayland character is from, I'm curious! :)

69G.A.B.E
Apr 19, 2009, 7:57pm Top

Only the AWESOMEST books ever! The Mortal Instruments Triology, they are an urban fantasy series and they are AMAAAZING! They are mine and Alice's favourite books EVER! :D You NEED to read them!

70RebeccaAnn
Edited: Apr 19, 2009, 8:19pm Top

Those wouldn't happen to be by Cassandra Clare, would they? If so, I think I'll stay away. Personal preference: I'm not a big fan of her writing. Sorry!

71FFortuna
Apr 19, 2009, 9:33pm Top

After looking them up, it turns out they're already on my reading list... I love it when that happens because I hate adding to my reading list, it's seriously huge.

Yup, Cassandra Clare. My sister really enjoyed them, or at least the first one (she and I both suffer from disliking series after the first few books).

72ibetonalice2
Apr 19, 2009, 9:50pm Top

What's wrong with Cassandra Clare?

73G.A.B.E
Apr 19, 2009, 11:51pm Top

70: I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE her writing-style! :D

71: I'm the opposite to you, I love series the most. But I do love a good few standalone books.

74FFortuna
Apr 20, 2009, 2:42am Top

72, I think RebeccaAnn just wanted to say it didn't suit her personal preference, not that there was something wrong with it.

73, I actually prefer series, but I usually find that after two or three books the quality really goes downhill. I think it's a combination of losing that "new" feeling, the author running out of ideas, and the author not having as much time to work on the book before it's published. (whispering) The Twilight series is one of the biggest examples of this...

75G.A.B.E
Apr 20, 2009, 2:44am Top

With the Mortal Instruments, my favourite is the last and my least is the first. Not that the first isn't AWESOME, it is but the second and third are so action-packed and TOTALLY ABSORBING. :D

76RebeccaAnn
Apr 20, 2009, 9:24am Top

Cassandra Clare was a big name in the HP fandom world about ten years ago (before she became a published author). She was famous for her Draco Veritas trilogy. The reason I don't like her is because her trilogy plagiarized a lot of quotes from movies and television, namely Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Eventually, she got called out on it and she started citing her quotations, which were A LOT. Before I got tired of the series and quit reading it, I would feel like I'd just read a script for BtVS. I know that technically, she was writing fanfiction, but I'd still like to read something a little more original. And that's why I tend to avoid her writing. I'm sure her Mortal Instruments trilogy is fine, but I doubt I'll ever go check it out (that and I've heard that it's very similar to her Draco Veritas series - character personalities are almost identical but the names have changed).

I'm glad you enjoy it so much though! It's always fantastic to find a series you love so much, you actually lose sleep because you can't stop reading :P (mine is the Gentlemen Bastards series by Scott Lynch at the moment...Why are there are only two books of this series out?)

77FFortuna
Apr 20, 2009, 3:32pm Top

Ooh, the first Gentlemen Bastards book is on my TBR too, but higher. I've actually gotten the first book from the library and it's sitting in my physical Mt. TBR. I've heard so many people on LT say good things about it.

I won't comment on the fanfic thing because it tends to set me off on tirades, but that does make me less enthusiastic about reading her books...

78RebeccaAnn
Apr 20, 2009, 5:18pm Top

I have mixed feelings about fanfiction. It can be a great way for people to explore worlds further, but I have a couple friends who read nothing but fanfiction and it drives me insane. Also, a lot of it is trash. You really have to hunt for anything of good quality so for the past few years, I've kind of shied away from it. But it was what really got me hooked into reading and away from television (I don't even have cable anymore - just a DVD player for the occasional movie) back when I was younger, so I can't disregard it as something completely worthless. It's the same reason I can't hate Twilight, even though I really dislike it. So many of the younger generations are discovering that books that can be amazing and I don't think I could ever hate something that does that.

And yes, I definitely recommend the Gentlemen Bastards books. They're highly entertaining (there are so many laugh out loud moments it's not even funny - pun intended :P). The only thing is, it's an ongoing series of what's supposed to be six or seven books. However, only books one and two are out now which sucks. But I don't think I'll mind rereading those books...

79FFortuna
Apr 20, 2009, 5:37pm Top

I have mostly the same feelings about fanfic... the first things I ever wrote were Batman fanfics (I'm an aspiring writer who still loves Batman but no longer writes fanfic), and until I was about eleven I read nothing but Star Trek novels, which are basically glorified fanfic. Those novels did me a lot of good, almost as much as the series itself. And I definitely understand the feeling of wanting to explore something canon never got into, and the feeling of wanting to give something back to the book or show that I loved, like an homage.

The terrible fanfics people write (that I have to slog through to find interesting things) are the reason I don't read the things anymore. I was actually browsing Twilight fanfiction the other day to kind of get a feel for what the fans think about... no offense to the authors themselves, but I don't CARE what would happen if Bella was working in a coffee shop and met Edward, Forks' resident optometrist. Or whatever the strange situation might be. Et cetera, ad nauseum.

What really drives me crazy though is how many people write really well, but spend all of their time writing fanfic. I have a friend who could have published amazing novels by now, but instead she's laboring over a 400,000 word Star Wars AU. 400,000 words of something no one's ever really going to read, when I've read the first few chapters of her unfinished original novel and think it's one of the best things I've seen in ages. It makes me sad.

Okay, ramble over. :) And hey, I managed to work Twilight into it, and all without it being too much of a tirade!

80RebeccaAnn
Apr 20, 2009, 6:08pm Top

Harry Potter was always the genre I liked to read about. I enjoyed reading speculations on what future books would be about and what happened in the Marauder era. But yes, there is some terrible fanfiction out there that just disgraces writing as a whole. Then there is some great, fantastic fanfiction out there and those are the people I wish would publish their own stuff because you know it would be great. But, as one of my friends who writes fanfiction said to me when I asked her why she didn't write original stuff, "You don't tell people who play basketball with their buddies after work to go pro, so why bug people who like to write in their free time to publish?"

Although honestly, a 400,000 word fanfiction is a little more than writing in your free time. :P

And the people who read nothing but fanfiction bug me. I just want to tell them to explore something different for a change. There's a thousand worlds waiting for exploration. Read some other books and then you'll have much more options of categories for fanfiction!

Honestly, I miss fanfiction, but I just don't have the patience to wade through the millions of atrocious attempts at a story to find a passable one. I mean, I know there is a lot of bad books published, but I think the ratio is a bit less than with fanfiction. Most stuff published is at least edited...

81FFortuna
Apr 20, 2009, 7:13pm Top

I'm only a passing Potter fan, but ditto on everything else.

To clarify, I don't care if people write fanfic in their spare time. Their spare time is none of my business and I don't want it to be. No one's going to make me sit on a fanfic site and read things I don't want to, so as a whole I don't care at all and it doesn't affect me.

What bothers me about the friend in question and the group of people she represents to the discussion is that they DO write original fiction and claim they want it published, but devote all that energy to the fanfics and hardly any to the original stuff. 400,000 words is, as you say, a little more than your free time, and she's not even done. She works hard on it, in all the time she can spare.

This is true for a lot of fanfic writers, a LOT, but they take their fanfic veeeery seriously. I view it as a generally harmless pasttime and fun to do with other fans, but hardly on the level of a published book that you created all by yourself without having to borrow someone else's world. It may just be me being narrowminded and elitist, and if so I'd like to hear a discussion, but I'm never really going to care much about a fanfic no matter how much it makes me think or whatever. It's like a shadow of the original... I could just look at the real thing and be satisfied. I don't understand why someone would put that much of their effort and time, more than just spare time, into something that doesn't really matter, as opposed to "real" fiction, (I can't think of a more appropriate term, although surely there is one.)

I'm in a circle of writing buddies that I've known for about six years now, and I'm the only one who doesn't ever write fanfic. The others sort of fall on a scale between me and the 400,000 word-er. When they start talking about their fanfics with as much fervor as THEIR stuff, I just don't get it. I feel like I'm missing something...

All of that in reference to the really dedicated writer of fanfic and original fic, of course. (I wonder what percentage of them are in that group!) As I said before, I totally understand the hobbyists. I wouldn't argue about the merits of somebody's hobby, I mean... it's a hobby. I understand the attraction of fanfic better than the one of stamp collecting.

Of course, rampant plagiarism and massacreing of the English language and/or original source material is fodder for another rant altogether.

82RebeccaAnn
Apr 20, 2009, 9:17pm Top

It can also be a good transition to writing original fiction. I mean, I wrote fanfic before I ever wrote original stuff and now, I couldn't imagine writing anything but the occasional one-shot when I get bored...

400,000 words is a lot! I'm working on a novel (which is probably horrible and will never be published but what can you do?) which is at 60,000 words so far and that's taken me about three months to write! I couldn't imagine spending so much time on a fanfiction. But I do see the appeal. It's easy to "publish" and in the form of reviews, you get instant feedback. Mind you, some that feedback is about as intelligible as some of the fanfic out there, but you know people are actually reading your stuff.

And apart from "real" fiction, I can only think to call it original fiction.

Maybe we should start a different thread for this topic...

83FFortuna
Apr 21, 2009, 5:11pm Top

Posted a thread in Book Talk, although we might also get an interesting discussion in Writer-Readers...

84BananaFone
May 1, 2009, 11:47pm Top

alrighty then.

85Kaysh
Aug 10, 2010, 6:33am Top

ohhh i have 2 think about that um......... NO!!!!! I DONT WANT MY OWN EDWARD WHO WOULD???!!!!

86inkspot
Aug 10, 2010, 1:23pm Top

Well most Twilight fans think Edward is really hot, so it seems logical that some of them would like to date a guy just like that (I'm talking personality, not vampire, although of course some people would like a vampire boyfriend too :)

87Kaysh
Aug 11, 2010, 3:26am Top

This message has been deleted by its author.

88Kaysh
Aug 11, 2010, 3:28am Top

yea i guess Edward is ok i like him as a vampire (his personality that is) but Jacob's just cuter u know and some of Edward's personality he has n his more out going i could date Edward (if he was my age) but if i had ran into Edward N Jacob then i would pick Jacob

8931Isabella
Aug 12, 2010, 2:33pm Top

yes i totally love edward!!

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