Everyone probably knows about this one but I hadn't heard of it:

The Decline and Fall of the British Empire (Hardcover) by Piers Brendon (Author)

Reviews:

“Splendid . . . Graphically narrated . . . Brendon’s book is history with the nasty bits left in . . . Provides a cautionary text for a new administration that will inherit autocratic allies, penal colonies, reliance on coercive power, and pervasive cynicism about America’s declared global arms.”
–Karl E. Meyer, Washington Post Book World

“Complex . . . Lucid . . . Every page is consistently readable and stimulating.”
–Geoffrey Wheatcroft, The New York Times Book Review

“The author is such a lively writer that I’d be hard pressed to find dull patches in this whooper of a book . . . Brendon’s narrative is wonderfully stocked with generals, politicians, rugged adventurers, consuls, eccentrics, administrators, and famous imperial hands.”
–Matthew Price, Boston Globe

“A richly detailed, lucid account of how the British Empire grew and grew–and then, not quite inexorably, fell apart.”
--Kirkus

"A book of enormous range and complexity and leavened with a splendid sense of wit and irony. It takes courage to emulate the great Gibbon, but Brendon succeeds magnificently. And while there may be many books on the British Empire, this is undoubtedly the most entertaining and the best."
--Dominic Sandbrook, The Evening Standard

"A masterpiece of a historical narrative. No review can hope to do justice to the depth of Brendon's research, the balance and originality of his conclusions, or the quality and humor of his prose. Our imperial story has been crying out for a top-flight historian who can write. Now it has one."
--Saul David, Literary Review

"Brilliant . . . An enthralling mini-series of colonial adventure . . . Brendon's book is stuffed with a myriad spectacular examples of human vanity, folly, depravity and greed--and is all the better for it."
--Robert McCrum, The Observer

"A sumptuous chronicle of the British empire. . . . A compelling and spectacularly detailed retelling of imperial "rise" as well as fall . . . A glittering panoply of decadence, folly, farce and devastation."
--Maya Jasanoff, Saturday Guardian

In the past 8 months I have read both the Odyssey and the Iliad and found them absolutely magnificent.

Can you suggest for me any other specific ancient Greek literature titles that I might find equally engrossing? I know of none at the moment.

I have heard of the dramatists but don't know really anything about them.

I don't read ancient Greek myself and am not at all a Classicist, but I can suggest asking the same question also in the Ancient History group. I have it on my "watched" list; it is an active group and the members seem quite knowledgeable and helpful.

I do recall enjoying Lysistrata (one of the comedy plays), in my school days.

The other fundamental Greek literature, that is other than Homer, is Hesiod. He is available and readable.

Robert

Urquhart, here is something: It's not a book suggestion, but may be a handy way to browse some different authors and get a sense of their styles and forms and such. The Internet Classics Archive at MIT has, among other features, "a list of 441 works of classical literature by 59 different authors," mainly ancient Greek and Roman, in English translation and in the original.

Message 5: Essa

Essa, thank you very much; you are most kind to forward it.

I think what I am hoping for is for someone to drop by here who knows the Classic Greek literature and can suggest the next step for me beyond the the Odyssey and the Iliad. They were such a surprise to me; I could not believe it.

Also, I have a problem with reading plays, so I am hoping to avoid reading Greek drama. Reading plays is my Achilles heel......

Strange you say that about plays. Actually I think reading plays is almost a thing of the past. I wonder why?

>7

Have plays ever been widely read? I'd love to have some more information. I know you get the black-market Elizabethan Shakespeare quartos - someone going into the play and writing it all down as best they can (if only they'd had bittorent). But historically, outside of academia and lit geeks like me, have people often sat down and read a play to themselves? It's not what they're for, after all.

Message edited by its author, Apr 30, 2009, 11:19am.

I think that in the years BMC (before mass communication) reading plays was more popular. Reading everything was more popular then. I voluntary read Cyrano de Bergerac so I know somebody is stil doing it. ;-) I have a few plays in my library and I am looking for a few more. Someday I hope to have the time read them.

>2 Urquhart The Portable Greek Reader might give you some leads. It has sections from a lot of Ancient Greek authors with information about them. I have a copy and it has introduced me to Hesiod and Sophocles.

wildbill,

Many thanks.

Ur.

Re: further reading past the Odyssey and the Illiad for Urquhart. It really depends on what your interested in. You could move into history writers such as Herodotus, or the philosophical works such as Plato etc etc, or if your still interested in the mythology/fable side try Aesop's Fables.

Historians in Trouble: Plagiarism, Fraud, and Politics in the Ivory Tower (Paperback)
by Jon Wiener (Author)

From Amazon:

Editorial Reviews
Review
A top-notch reporter on higher education, Wiener delves into the academic basket and hangs up some seriously dirty laundry. -- Chicago Tribune

As readable as any political thriller. -- Library Journal

Intrigues and educates...Wiener has a journalist's knack for boiling complex cases into digestible bits. -- Seattle Times

Makes the case clearly and forcefully that historians' violations of common standards of ethics are not to be taken lightly. -- Los Angeles Times

Wiener covers the modern university as if it were a police beat. -- John Leonard, Harper's

Wiener's argument...is persuasively mounted. -- Financial Times

Product Description
The revealing and much-discussed look behind the scenes of recent headline-grabbing controversies in the history profession.

Widely reviewed and discussed upon its hardcover publication, Historians in Trouble is investigative journalist and historian Jon Wiener's "incisive and entertaining" (New Statesman, UK) account of several of the most notorious history scandals of the last few years.

Focusing on a dozen key controversies ranging across the political spectrum and representing a wide array of charges, Wiener seeks to understand why some cases make the headlines and end careers, while others do not. He looks at the well-publicized cases of Michael Bellesiles, the historian of gun culture accused of research fraud; accused plagiarists and "celebrity historians" Stephen Ambrose and Doris Kearns Goodwin; Pulitzer Prize-winner Joseph J. Ellis, who lied in his classroom at Mount Holyoke about having fought in Vietnam; and the allegations of misconduct by Harvard's Stephan Thernstrom and Emory's Elizabeth Fox-Genovese, who nevertheless were appointed by George W. Bush to the National Council on the Humanities.

As the Bancroft Prize-winning historian Linda Gordon wrote in Dissent, Wiener's "very readable book...reveals not only scholarly misdeeds but also recent increases in threats to free debate and intellectual integrity."

About the Author
Jon Wiener is a professor of history at the University of California at Irvine and a contributing editor to The Nation. The author of several books, including Gimme Some Truth, Come Together, and Professors, Politics, and Pop, he lives in Los Angeles.

For information re the North American Indian, members may wish to check out:

Handbook of the North American Indians
William C. Sturtevant, General Editor

A 20-volume encyclopedia summarizing knowledge about all Native peoples north of Mesoamerica, including cultures, languages, history, prehistory, and human biology. Standard reference work for anthropologists, historians, students, and the general reader. Chapters by the main authorities on each topic. Area volumes include separate chapters on all tribes. Heavily illustrated, extensive bibliographies, well indexed. Each volume may be purchased and used independently.

These volumes can be ordered online through the Superintendent of Documents.

Vol. 2: Indians in Contemporary Society
The 46 chapters in this volume explore how Indians and Arctic peoples maintain their Native identity in contemporary societies, including their responses to the social forces around them. The major sections include The Issues in the United States, The Issues in Canada, Demographic and Ethnic Issues, and Social and Cultural Revitalization. 589 pp. S/N 047-000-00417-9. 2008. $64. $89.60 international price.

Vol. 3: Environment, Origins, and Population
Douglas H. Ubelaker, Vol. Ed.
72 chapters on the natural environment of the continent to which Indian cultures adapted in prehistoric and historic times, natural resources utilized by these cultures, current knowledge of the earliest Indian occupation (before 9,000 B.C.), and human biology of Indian and Eskimo (Inuit) populations, prehistoric, historic and modern. 1,160 pp. S/N 047-000-00416-1. 2006. $72.

Vol 4: History of Indian-White Relations
Wilcomb E. Washburn, Vol. Ed.
57 chapters on the history of Indian-White relations in the U.S. and Canada following 1492. 838 pp. S/N 047-000-00406-3. 1988. $62

Vol. 5: Arctic
David Damas, Vol. Ed.
60 chapters on Eskimo, Inuit, Aleut of U.S., Canada, Greenland, U.S.S.R. 845 pp. S/N 047-000-00398-9. 1984. $63

Vol. 6: Subarctic

June Helm, Vol. Ed. 66 chapters on Indians from interior Alaska to Labrador. 837 pp. S/N 047-000-00374-1. 1981. $62

Vol. 7: Northwest Coast
Wayne Suttles, Vol. Ed.
58 chapters on Indians of the coasts of southeast Alaska, British Columbia, Washington, and Oregon. 796 pp. S/N 047-000-00408-0. 1990. $62

Vol. 8: California
Robert F. Heizer, Vol. Ed.
72 chapters on Indians of California. 816 pp. S/N 047-000-00347-4. 1978. $62

Vol. 9: Southwest
Alfonso Ortiz, Vol. Ed.
59 chapters on Puebloan peoples and prehistory of southwestern U.S. and northern Mexico. 717 pp. S/N 047-000-00361-0. 1979. $59.50

Vol. 10: Southwest
Alfonso Ortiz, Vol. Ed.
56 chapters on non-Puebloan peoples and on economy, social organization, and rituals of southwestern U.S. and northern Mexico. 884 pp. S/N 047-000-00390-3. 1983. $63

Vol. 11: Great Basin
Warren L. d'Azevedo, Vol. Ed.
45 chapters on Indians of Utah, Nevada, and portions of adjoining states. 868 pp. S/N 047-000-00401-2. 1986. $63

Vol. 12: Plateau
Deward E. Walker, Jr., Vol. Ed.
41 chapters on Indians of southeastern British Columbia, eastern Washington, northeast and central Oregon, northern Idaho, western Montana, and a small portion of northern California. 808 pp. S/N 047-000-00412-8. 1988. $67

Vol. 13: Plains
Raymond J. DeMallie, Vol. Ed.
67 chapters on the Indians of the prairie and high plains of U.S. and Canada. Parts 1 and 2 compose the one volume. 1,376 pp. S/N 047-000-00414-4. 2001. $106

Vol. 14: Southeast

Raymond D. Fogelson, Vol. Ed.
64 chapters on Indians from Florida and the southern Appalachians and the Carolina Piedmont to the southern Mississippi River Valley. 1,042 pp. S/N 047-000-00415-2. 2004. $72. Errata page.

Vol. 15: Northeast
Bruce G. Trigger, Vol. Ed.
73 chapters on Indians from Virginia to St. Lawrence River, Great Lakes, Ohio Valley, Illinois. 924 pp. S/N 047-000-00351-2. 1978. $64

Vol. 17: Languages
Ives Goddard, Vol. Ed.
27 chapters on native languages of North America spoken by American Indians, Eskimos, and Aleuts. Fold-out, color, volume map. 958 pp. S/N 047-000-00411-0. 1996. $89.50

See-
http://anthropology.si.edu/handbook.htm

Pattern and Repertoire in History by Roehner and Syme, Harvard University Press, 2002.

This is a difficult book to read. As the authors themselves state:

"Nobody would expect a book about geodynamics, chemistry, or astrophysics to make “pleasant reading.” Such a book may prove fascinating because of the new understanding it permits, but all readers accept that a good amount of work is needed to acquire that understanding. .

I found the work too abstruse for me to comment on. Possibly others with better minds will be able to better understand this book. For my part, I wish them well in doing so and await their clearer grasp of the book than I am able to provide.

People may wish to read excerpts from the book and judge for themselves whether they would like to spend more time on this particular school of historiography.

ix
We show that by breaking up complex historical phenomena into simpler “modules,” it becomes possible to study the latter from the point of view of sociology. In this way, historical sociology can aspire to bridging the long-standing gap between history and sociology. Sometimes, especially when we want to refer to the decomposition of a historical episode into simpler components, we use the expression “analytical history”; the field of analytical history should be seen as a branch, a ramification, of historical sociology.
5
In fact the rule that a problem should be divided “into as many parts as would be required for a better solution’ was stated more than three centuries ago by the philosopher and scientist Descartes (1637). Subsequently the term “modular approach” has been used to refer to the decomposition of a complex phenomenon into simpler ones.
6
Let us come back to the example of the French Revolution in order to examine how our ideas about simplicity and modularity can be adapted to history. We have already mentioned three possible modules, namely, the meetings of the Estates-General, the confiscation of Church estates, and the Parisian insurrection……In this book we use the term “analytical history” to refer to the study of the modules composing a complex phenomenon…
It remains to show how these different modules can be studied seperately and to examine what can be learned from such a modular approach. For purposes of illustration, we consider the meeting of the Estates-General.
7
Selected Components of the French Revolution

….Public Debt
… Price increase for grains
……. Meeting of the Estates-General
…………. Insurrection of Parisian population
…………………Unrest in the countryside (Great Fear)
………………………Confiscation of Church’s estates
……………………………King’s failed flight

24
in Aldous Huxley’s words, “the fact that men gain little profit from the lessons of history is the most important lesson that history teaches us.”
48
Determining Modules
How can we know which historical analogies will reveal significant patterns and which are merely trivial?…Some sensible rules that we have already mentioned are 1-to consider a sharply defined phenomenon that 2) has occurred several times (the standard ‘large N’ condition) and for which 3) there are accurate and possible quantitative historical sources. Taken together, these criteria provide valuable, practical guidelines and narrow the field of research. Any study conducted along such lines will produce useful and non-trivial results.
49
From a more technical perspective there are basically two ways to decompose complex historical phenomena into simpler modules. First, the decomposition can be made on a chronological basis. Thus a complex sequence of events can be decomposed into separated episodes. Second, the decomposition can be accomplished by breaking up a large class of events ( for example, strike) into smaller subsets…..

365
“Sympathy with our approach, we have discovered, does not necessarily make for ease of reading. Our methodology may be challenging at times. It also, however, leads to rewards difficult to obtain by other means.
:
:
Nobody would expect a book about geodynamics, chemistry, or astrophysics to make “pleasant reading.” Such a book may prove fascinating because of the new understanding it permits, but all readers accept that a good amount of work is needed to acquire that understanding. The present book ….presupposes some acquaintance with a great variety of historical backgrounds, a requirement that may make reading it demanding at times.
:
:
Historical sociology is less like physics.. and more like meteorology, a field in which there has been steady progress and less dramatic achievement.
:
:
We have…concentrated on patterns, on the question of “how.” ……For historically minded readers, it may be frustrating to leave the “why” question untouched, despite the insight the “how” answers may provide.

They note the need to develop what they call
367
a Very Large Chronicle (VLC) that could play the same role for historians as observatories do for astronomers.
378
Table 9.4 From qualitative history to analytical history

Qualitative history
Narrative of isolated events

Quantitative history
Quantitative description of isolate events (climetrics)

Comparative history
Comparison of a given phenomenon in different countries

Analytical history/Historical sociology
Quantitative comparison of several modules and building blocks (“simple” mechanisms)

378
The objective of analytical history is to define and analyze building blocks, modules, and simple patterns.
/////////////////////////
If members are familiar with this book and would care to comment, I would certainly welcome hearing from them.

Message edited by its author, May 23, 2009, 10:07pm.

From the excerpts quoted it sounds as if the authors' views are one of breaking down certain historical events into modules the same way we do in computer programming. Then comparing the different modules.

Yes, you are right. They refer to Selected Components of the French Revolution listed above as modules as well.

Also, in the book is mention of being predictive in history. They discuss how very accurate Winston
Churchill and Charles de Gaulle were in their predictions before WWII about the course of the war. They mention that both were very well read in history and that their 'intuition' was uncannily correct.

Ur, if you ever decide to write a book about this, I'll buy it.

OK, this is for you folks who have time to spare and just enjoy a casual read at bedtime. It's admittedly a bit weird but I enjoy it.....here goes.

Somewhere on this blog I reviewed The Hindus by author Wendy Doniger. In her kind response that I posted somewhere she talked about reading the back of the book first.....

So reading the back of the book first is a bit advanced for me but I am starting to read the back of the books I read like 1491 after I have read the book and it is really fascinating.

I mean you have to have time for this stuff, but if you take the time, it is like reading a whole discussion of the author's process, as with 1491.

Also, I have just finished the footnotes at the back of the book for the Penguin Classics edition of Lewis Carroll - Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass. This also a fascinating portal into his process of writing and it becomes obvious how clearly and obviously J.K. Rowling used the works of Lewis Carroll for her Harry Potter series.

Fascinating stuff; I love to look at an authors' process...but as I said some will find it weird.

There is a new book by Margaret MacMillan just released and I know we have some big Macmillan fans so just a heads up here.

I will pick up my copy at the library on Monday.

Her website:
http://www.margaretmacmillan.com/

Her book:
The Uses and Abuses of History

A Synopsis:

History is useful when it is used properly: to understand why we and those we must deal with think and react in certain ways. It can offer examples to inform our decisions and guesses about the consequences of our actions. But we should be wary of looking to history for dogmatic lessons.We should distrust those who abuse history when they call on it to justify unreasonable claims to land, for example, or restitution. MacMillan illustrates how dangerous history can be in the hands of nationalistic or religious or ethnic leaders who use it to foster a sense of grievance and a desire for revenge.

About the author

Margaret MacMillan was educated at the University of Toronto and at Oxford, where she obtained a B. Phil. in politics and a D. Phil. for a thesis on the British in India between 1880 and 1920. She is the editor of Canada and NATO and the author of Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World, which won the 2003 Governor General's Award, the Samuel Johnson Prize, the PEN Hessell Tiltman Prize, the Duff Cooper Prize and was a New York Times Editors' Choice for 2002. Currently, MacMillan lives in Toronto, and is provost of Trinity College and professor of history at the University of Toronto. In 2007, she will become the Warden of St. Anthony’s College, Oxford University.

The Uses And Abuses of History has been out for a little while now and is now available in Trade Paperback (at least in Canada). I will agree that it looks fascinating though, and I'd bet, given how readable Women of the Raj was, that it'll be a really good read.

Yes, as you say and I did not know:

"The Uses And Abuses of History has been out for a little while now and is now available in Trade Paperback (at least in Canada)."

This 2009 release is the first for the book in hard back in the US.

It is a thin book so I will be able to tell all shortly.

I took a look at it and sent it right into my wishlist. Keep the great recomendations coming.

Margaret Macmillan is one of the outstanding historians of today; widely read and highly revered. The recent book Dangerous Games by Margaret Macmillan was originally published in Canada in 2008 by Viking and in 2009 has been published by Modern Library in the US.

As she state it “grew out of an invitation …received from the History Dept. at the University of Western Ontario to give the Joanne Goodman lectures in the fall of 2007…a wonderful opportunity to reflect on a subject of my own choosing.”

It is a thin book (numbering less than 170 pages) that can charitably characterized as being a bit thin on content.

In the art world, some artists divide their work into those pieces that can be quickly produced and so require only limited time skill and expertise. Matisse and Picasso are artists that come to mind who knew that concept produced accordingly. They of course also had their other works that had greater depth and breadth and for which they are well known.

I am sure much the same method of production can be said of historians, viz., that there are the serious tomes that they produce, such as books like Paris 1919 and Nixon and Mao, by which their stature is established in the field and that along with those wonderful works are books they produce that are short and keep the money coming in. After all, everyone has to pay for food.

Yes, she discusses the different uses and misuses of history that nations at different times have been guilty of. The histories of most major nations (Canada, China, England, France) and many minor ones such as Serbia, Greece, are touched on and inconsistencies noted. However, in the end her book does not seem to share any new revelations or ground breaking observation that one may have hoped for. Possibly Dangerous Games was a little too adventuresome a title for a book such as this.

For the record, the three page listing at the back entitled Further Reading is one of the most interesting parts of the book. It draws together so many new and old titles and authors that someone interested in history may well wish to savor in a depth in a way that this book does not.

Margaret Macmillan will of course go on to write more splendid histories of great worth that people can relish. However this is not a book that most readers of history need add to their TBR pile.

For WWII buffs; note to be published in 2011.

The road to hell
Jul 23rd 2009
From The Economist print edition

A British historian argues that Hitler lost the war for the same reason that he unleashed it—because he was a Nazi

The Storm of War: A New History of the Second World War. By Andrew Roberts. Allen Lane; 712 pages; £25. To be published in America by HarperCollins in 2011. Buy from Amazon.co.uk

ONLY a highly confident historian would set out to write a one-volume history of the second world war. And only a highly accomplished one could produce a book that manages to be distinctive but not eccentric, comprehensive in scope but not cramped by detail, giving due weight both to the extraordinary personalities and to the blind economic and physical forces involved.

Andrew Roberts certainly does not lack confidence and his talents are well suited to the task. His speciality is the bold sweep of narrative history, marshalling hard facts and telling anecdotes to support big judgments. For modern academic historians, his work is a bit adventurous: far safer to narrow down research to, say, the study of medieval nail prices in rural Wales.

The big theme of his new book is the interplay between Hitler’s personality and Nazi Germany’s fortunes on the battlefield. In brief, Mr Roberts argues that the war started when it did because Hitler was a Nazi, and that Germany lost it for the same reason. The Nazi leader’s blunders started when he began to turn his anti- Semitic rhetoric into practice, driving many of Germany’s best brains into exile. The allies won because “our German scientists were better than their German scientists”, was the pithy summary of the war’s outcome by one of Churchill’s closest aides, Sir Ian Jacob. Excellent German engineering and ruthless use of forced labour was not enough to make up for the drain of so many clever people into exile or concentration camps. A conservative-nationalist war leadership, unshackled by Hitler’s lunatic prejudices, could have developed advanced weapons far faster, perhaps even cracking the atom.

Hitler also started the war rather too early. A bigger and better U-boat fleet, for example, could have starved and crippled Britain. Sometimes he dithered, allowing the British army to escape from Dunkirk in 1940. More often it was impatience that was ruinous. Had the Axis powers finished off the British in north Africa first, they could have attacked Russia from the south as well as the east. Hitler’s “stand or die” orders gravely hampered the war in the east once the tide turned. His gratuitous decision to declare war on the United States after Pearl Harbour was another catastrophe (he regarded America as a military weakling). His failure to encourage Japan to attack the Soviet Union was similarly disastrous.

Mr Roberts likes punchy pronouncements and there are some fine ones here. After Japan’s initial military successes, previously contemptuous outsiders changed their minds: “From being a bandy kneed, myopic, oriental midget in Western eyes, the Japanese soldier was suddenly transformed into an invincible, courageous superman.” On Hitler’s geeky knowledge of military hardware, which led him constantly to second-guess his generals, he writes: “Because a trainspotter can take down the number of a train in his notebook it doesn’t mean he can drive one.”

The author’s research brings to light some startling facts. Even war buffs may be surprised to learn that the supposedly supine Vichy regime in France executed German spies, or that more Frenchmen fought on the Axis side than with the Allies. A nutty British official in charge of Malta put Sabbath observance ahead of unloading ships, at terrible cost. Another nearly lost the vital battle for Kohima, the gateway to India, because he wanted to keep to peacetime rules restricting the use of barbed wire. Orde Wingate, the hero of the Chindits’ campaign in Burma, was an ardent nudist who never bathed. (He scrubbed himself with a stiff brush, instead.) Mr Roberts is the first historian to gain access to a huge trove of personal letters and other documents assembled over 35 years by Ian Sayer, a British transport tycoon. Extracts provide Mr Roberts with some of his most telling personal anecdotes.

The most controversial part of the book will be the author’s unflinching judgments about the great controversies of the war. He briskly defends dropping atom bombs on Japan; after Okinawa, the price of a conventional assault looked particularly hideous. A test detonation would have been folly. America had only two bombs, and it was the second that (narrowly) persuaded Japan to surrender. On the allied bombing of Dresden he assembles a formidable array of facts and arguments against the post-war second-guessers who see it as a war crime. He notes that a German bombing raid on Yugoslavia in 1941 killed nearly as many people. Few remember, or complain, about that.

On other issues, though, he is more counter-intuitive. He does not believe, for example, that the Soviet army’s inaction during the Warsaw uprising in 1944 was a cynical attempt to let the Nazis deal with the anticommunist Polish resistance: the real reason was that the Red Army’s lines of communication had been overstretched by its rapid advance westward.

Mr Roberts hops nimbly between the Pacific and the Atlantic, though Asian readers may feel a bit shortchanged: the fighting in China gets particularly short shrift. Again and again he chides his readers for overestimating the importance of famous British and American battles in the West and overlooking much larger ones on the eastern front: more than 2m Germans were killed in the east, over ten times the number who died fighting in the west. “Britain provided the time, Russia the blood, America the money and the weapons,” he concludes.

He presents stylish penmanship, gritty research and lucid reasoning, coupled with poignant and haunting detours into private lives ruined and shortened. Mr Roberts shows boyish pleasure and admiration at the great feats of arms he describes. But the underlying tones of this magnificent book are in a minor key: furious sorrow at the waste of it all.

Correction: the date of the punitive German bombing raid on Yugoslavia was 1941, not 1940 as originally stated. This was corrected on July 24th 2009.

"The allies won because “our German scientists were better than their German scientists”, was the pithy summary of the war’s outcome by one of Churchill’s closest aides, Sir Ian Jacob."

Was it due to the German education system or superior genes?

Our most celebrated German scientist was of Jewish heritage. That would seem to disqualify the gene theory.

Possibly the German Jewish gene pool was superior to others of the time?

I would like to recomend Vietnam The History of an Unwinnable War 1945-1975 by John Prados.
I am about 1/3 the way through. I think it is a good one volume history of the war; it is quite comprehensive. Because the book is so densely packed with information, it would probably be helpful to have read some shorter works before taking this one on. The notes and bibliography are almost worth the cover price.

LamSon, if Vietnam: The History of an Unwinnable War holds up, please put it in your list on your profile. There is one reviewer at Barnes and Noble who, possibly for political reasons, disputes the value of the book; I wonder whether there is any substance to his review.

Robert

Message edited by its author, Jul 28, 2009, 12:06am.

This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly is a history book about now and that what we are all experiencing in this Recession is history repeating itself. Sounds fascinating to me.l

For reviews of the book you may wish to go to:

http://www.amazon.com/This-Time-Differen...

One more for the wishlist...

The following book is probably Off Topic but for many guys here I am sure there are those of us who have read about different battles and have a curiosity re war and what it is really like.

The book is by Chris Hedges and is called,
What Every Person Should Know About War

It is an extremely thoroughly documented book of 120 pages based on official armed services records since WWII. I found it both chilling and eye opening.

The following are just a few quotes to give you an idea.

Xi
(from the author) I struggle with the demons all who have been to war must bear. There are days when these burdens seem more than I can handle.

71
re the moment of combat:
You may not be able to see, think, or control your body. During the first experience of combat you may have a shaking fit or curl up in a fetal position. You will probably recover within a few days.

How will I perform during my first time in combat?
Your performance may be poor. It will be hard for you to adjust, identify, and respond to dangers such as incoming artillery. You have a relatively high risk of being wonded or killed in your first battle.

Will I fire my weapon?
Probably, although this was not always the case. Less than half the riflemen in WWII and 55% in the Korean War fired their weapons. US military training has become more adept at conditioning you to shoot. 90% of frontline personnel fired their weapons in Vietnam.

86
Where am I most vulnerable to friendly fire?
Most friendly fire injuries in recent wars have occurred because tanks and vehicles were improperly targeted. 70% of all combat vehicles lost in the Gulf Ware were destroyed by friendly fire.

91
What will prolonged exposure to combat do to me?
In WW II it was determined that after 60 days of continuous combat, 98% of all those who survive will have become psychiatric casualties. Lieutenant Colonel (Re.) Dave Grossman wrote: “It is not too far from the mark to observe that there is something about continuous, inescapable combat which will drive 98% of all men insane, and the other 2% were crazy when they got there.

112
In returning home from an unpopular war will I be spit on or harassed?

Probably not. Research indicates that the story of the returning Vietnam vet spat upon by a protester at the airport may be an urban legend. However, there are credible reports of hostility and violence toward men and women in uniform. Some Viet vets reported discrimination from college and graduate school admissions offices. Others reported verbal abuse. This continues to the present day.

115
What are the long-term consequences of combat stress?

There is a direct link between severe stress exposure and long-term health problems. 20 years after their exposure to combat, Viet vets showed a higher rate of circulatory, digestive, musculoskeletal , metabolic, nervous system, and respiratory problem. They were also at greater risk for some infectious diseases.

What are some of the specific problems I might develop?

You are at greater risk for drug-related disorders and alcoholism, as well as depression, hysteria, and hypochondria. You may have more frequent nightmares and trouble sleeping for many years if you were exposed to combat. 15% of Viet vets reported regular nightmare 18 years after combat.

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Who is most at risk for PTSD in combat?
Among men, Hispanics and blacks are more susceptible than whites. The Army and the Marine Corps are the most susceptible services. In all branches, the lower ranks are more likely to experience PTSD.

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Can PTSD be cured?

No, but treatments can minimize outbreaks. The most successful are medication and cognitive-behavioral therapy- talking through the trauma and processing it slowly.

Some of our veteran members may wish to add or correct some of the above.

Even with real treatment, therapy not just meds, PTSD from combat is with you for life. My father and his brother had symptoms of it all their lives.

I'm now dealing with it myself. It's not fun and I'm tired of folks who tell me I should just get over it. Loud sudden noises, sirens, and the idiot kids down the block who deliberately step out in front of me in the dark as I'm driving by set me off into adrenaline overload.