Minister defends praying for Obama's death.

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Minister defends praying for Obama's death.

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1clamairy
Jul 17, 2009, 7:13 pm

Nice guy...

Minister defends praying for bad things to happen

Whatever happened to the 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' kind of thing? Not to mention the 'do unto others' thing...

What kind of people would attend a church run by a man like this?

2justjim
Jul 17, 2009, 7:25 pm

Weird, just plain weird.

The tiff between the military chaplains was interesting too. "My imaginary friend can beat up your imaginary friend"!

3richardbsmith
Edited: Jul 17, 2009, 7:50 pm

Thanks for bringing this out. Had not seen it or heard of him before. The first comment challenged the SBC to revoke ordination. "We must assume that the Southern Baptist Convention approves of this call for assassination since it has not revoked the pastor's ordination. " There should be some response from the Baptists and from the larger church (as well as the larger world), especially given the vocal outcry about Rev Wright statements.

Pastor Drake evidently does not like Rick Warren either.

This is as bad as the Catholic Bishop Richard Williamson.

This also came up on a google search for the pastor. Wiley Drake in the Park. "Do Justice, Love Mercy, and Walk with God" and prayer for the President. (This must have been before Jan 09.)

4snarkhunting
Jul 17, 2009, 7:53 pm

“We live in a society of suppressed violence that breaks out all because of a thirst for vengeance that is unacknowledged and unprocessed,” said Brueggemann, whose latest book is “Praying the Psalms.” “These psalms are vehicles by which that thirst can be processed in responsible and healthy ways.”


I'm all in favor of finding a healthy way to let go of aggressive feelings, but I still have to wonder what makes these people so angry and predisposed to violence to begin with. When reciting these imprecatory psalms isn't productive, then what? Do they interpret a lack of results as "God's will" and move on, or does something else happen?

5richardbsmith
Edited: Jul 17, 2009, 8:21 pm

I have not read Brueggemann at all. Theology is not a focus for me. But it may be a thought to run a topic here and on Christianity on the imprecatory psalms. I do not think they are cathartic remedies. They are part of the experience of the Jewish people, and as such should not be ignored. (And part of the liturgy and practice of ancient religions.) I have never studied them, maybe evidently I need to.

As for Drake, he will probably interpret a lack of results as calling for him to pray harder, and louder. Not sure how that works in his mind as a indicator of God's will that His will can only be fulfilled if Drake prays harder. Or how it will work for God's will as the majority of Christians and persons of other faiths counter with weekly and daily prayers for the health and success of our President.

I suspect Drake will not go further in terms of action than seeking additional publicity. His motivation is probably to stay in the public eye, a big fish in a small mud puddle. But someone else might take encouragement from Drake's justifications.

ETA to correct some grammar

6burningbooks
Jul 18, 2009, 7:55 pm

I think the quote by Klingenschmitt was especially enlightening:

"I never wish evil upon my enemies," Klingenschmitt said, "but the justice of God is not evil."

It seems to me that a major flaw found in the psyche of many faithful people is the idea that nothing bad that happens is from God, and everything good that happens is. This is not only contradictory to their belief that God is omnipotent and omniscient, but it also opens up the floodgate to allow people to justify horrible actions by saying they were merely doing the "will of God".

And why does Drake think that his prayers will do any good? Doesn't he believe that God's will will be done? Why would God need to be asked to smite a person? If the person is deserving of being smote by God, won't God take it upon his divine self to do it? (I guess that point could apply to any and all prayer, in my opinion making prayer a waste of time, even if there is a god.)

I'm also curious why Drake hates Obama in the first place. And if he's so adamant about bringing him down, why doesn't he use the legal and ethical resources that are available to us as American citizens rather than asking God to destroy him?

In my opinion, these imprecatory prayers are yet another blight on both the Bible and Christianity; not just Drake's, but the very idea of them altogether. I'm surprised that Drake hasn't been snatched up by some black-uniformed black ops team, put on an unmarked plane, and dropped in some third world country jungle wilderness. Unless he's part of some conspiracy... :p

Anyway, this Drake fella and anyone else who practice these imprecatory prayers are going straight to Hell in a hand basket. I hate Obama, too, but an untimely death doesn't seem to me to be a fitting punishment for his crimes.

7paradoxosalpha
Jul 18, 2009, 9:46 pm

I don't think there is a central authority with the power to "revoke the ordination" of Baptist clergy. Despite the grandstanding of the Southern Baptist Convention over the last few decades, it has little substantial authority over its member congregations. The Baptist tradition is one of extreme congregational autonomy.

8richardbsmith
Edited: Jul 18, 2009, 11:09 pm

I'm also curious why Drake hates Obama in the first place.

This point also came to me. What is the reason that President Obama should be the target of such prayers? Forget all the questions about the prayers themselves. The main imprecatory prayer that comes to my mind is Psalm 137, killing the Babylonian babies. My thought is that this psalm likely dates to sometime around 587 when Babylonian forces sacked Jerusalem. The point is that massive atrocities had occurred, at least making understandable such a feeling.

What did the president do to be the target of imprecatory prayer, if the biblical model is based on an emotional outcry in response to such devastating experience?

This guy is just absurd.

#7 Regardless of the power of the SBC, I would hope their response would be strong, but I have not found their response.

9Amtep
Jul 19, 2009, 4:12 am

I like this quote from the article:

“Of our prayers, 98 percent should be good prayers, and 2 percent should be imprecatory.”

Are we supposed to keep count? I never knew there was so much bookkeeping involved.

10PhaedraB
Jul 19, 2009, 8:57 am

7>

I believe you are correct about the Southern Baptist Convention. It is an association of congregations rather than a top-down "denomination," somewhat like the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations. They can't revoke an ordination, because they don't ordain.

What the SB Convention can do is boot a congregation and its minister out of the Convention. Which is very convenient. If a congregation disagrees with, say, homophobia or ordaining women or some other issue, they can be disaffiliated. Then the Convention can continue to claim unanimity on the issue among members of the SBC.

11clamairy
Jul 19, 2009, 4:58 pm

Wow, richardbsmith, I see you posted this story in your xian group here on LT without mentioning where you saw it first. Interesting.

12richardbsmith
Edited: Jul 19, 2009, 5:50 pm

>111. Wow, richardbsmith, I see you posted this story in your xian group here on LT without mentioning where you saw it first. Interesting.

Here is a quote from my OP in the Imprecatory Prayer topic in the Christian group.

"I found about Pastor Drake on this thread in the Happy Heathen group."

It was posted with a link straight to this topic in HH. Not sure what you read.

For those interested here is the link to the thread in the Christian group, complete with the link back to the HH topic.

I have also posted a similar topic in my Isaiah group. There I only linked to the topic that I started in the Christian group. But you get full credit for the discovery in the Christian group topic. Not much activity in Isaiah beyond my own ramblings, although I had not intended any slight towards your credit by my omission there of direct reference to your initial post. I will correct that omission now.

ETA credit with a link has now been given to your discovery and post on HH in the Isaiah group topic.

13clamairy
Jul 19, 2009, 7:01 pm

Well done. I'll admit I just skimmed, but I really didn't spot any mention of HH in that xianity thread. My bad.

So, what do your xian brethren in there think about your posting in here? I don't remember them being too crazy about Arctic Stranger frequenting this group.

14richardbsmith
Jul 19, 2009, 7:23 pm

This was not the first time I referenced an HH topic over on the Christianity group. I am sure it will not be the last. Some of this stuff on Christianity and religion in general that is discussed on HH, I would never have seen apart from my participation here.

Anyway my participation here has not been an issue in the Christianity Group, as far as I know. And of course, there are more Christians on HH than just me. There are a couple Heathens in the Christianity group, more than just me.

As far as I know all are welcome. They even let me in, in both groups.

15Booksloth
Jul 20, 2009, 5:38 am

In response to the OP - as I just said on another thread, on another subject altogether - never underestimate the number of weirdos out there.

16justjim
Jul 20, 2009, 5:44 am

>15 Booksloth:
Back in the day of my military service that thought was tops in my mind. Also whenever I drive a motor vehicle on a public road!

17Booksloth
Jul 20, 2009, 6:04 am

#16 See! I knew I'd have made a good soldier! (All I have to do now is stop running away every time I hear a loud bang and there's my perfect career path!)

18burningbooks
Jul 20, 2009, 6:50 am

By the by, these "imprecatory prayers" sound a lot like "curses" to me. Perhaps we should tie rocks to Drake's feet, (and anyone else who practices them), throw them in a lake, and see if they float? Just to make sure they're not witches... :p (For anyone who doesn't get the reference, see information about the Salem Witch Trials, specifically the tests done to see if a person was a witch.)

19Jesse_wiedinmyer
Jul 20, 2009, 5:53 pm

All I have to do now is stop running away every time I hear a loud bang and there's my perfect career path!)

PTSD's a bitch.

20Essa
Jul 21, 2009, 12:05 pm

I try to look on the bright side: Instead of pulling a Roeder and actually doing something effective to end Obama's life, this Drake guy is sitting around mouthing useless phrases. ("Useless" in my view, because I think it highly unlikely that his god exists.) If only ALL people who harbored thoughts of violence would call down divine curses and go no further.

The only thing that is worrisome, is that, as we saw from the cases of Roeder and others, some people don't stop at words, and a constant diet of these words can lead to some people taking physical action, and then people end up dead.

21Booksloth
Jul 21, 2009, 12:47 pm

Perfectly put, Essa!

22walk2work
Jul 21, 2009, 2:45 pm

Exactly, Essa. All too often, the folks who hold no compunction in invoking a curse grow impatient waiting for said god to act. From there it's a slippery slope to concluding that the devil is somehow impeding the god's actions, and deciding to help out by taking matters into their own hands. Or deciding that the god has charged them with doing it themselves. They see themselves as martyrs, and we know where that goes.

As soon as a person asks a deity to do something that is contra- life, they've taken the first step down that road.