Here's the september 2009 thread . I'm in the middle of The Jesuit and the Skull . It's really interesting .

I was happy enough with The Jesuit and the Skull, although I was disappointed that his works weren't discussed more. It made me want to reread The Phenomenon of Man; I spotted that in a back room I don't get to very often earlier today -- maybe soon.

Have fun,

Robert

JESUIT looks good!

I just started the most recent Lee Child novel, GONE TOMORROW. A fast, nasty read to help me unwind. I usually read Child's "Reacher" novels in about three or four hours...

Savage Detectives, still. I always seem to have one book that becomes a project.

Werewolves in their Youth by Chabon - short stories, decent enough but hardly impressive.

The Namesake seems to be the most enjoyable of the three; very nicely written, not-too-purple prose, intelligent insights, etc.

Sneaked a few pages of Everything is Illuminated and was startled. (I try to keep myself to only 3 books at a time) Startled because it was hilarious and interesting to read, at least for the first few pages. Wasn't sure if it was genius or madness.

The first 1/3 of EVERYTHING IS ILLUMINATED is best...and then there's an abrupt and puzzling change of tone, completely jarring. The rest of the book has a completely different feel to it. I loved the first part of the book and laughed frequently. After that...not so much...

The Magicians by Lev Grossman, which is improving as it goes.

2666. I read a little over 1/3 of it a while ago and then abandoned it for...something. I can't remember why I stopped, actually.

The Big Sleep, by Raymond Chandler. It's my first Chandler. I've actually only glanced at the first ten pages or so. I was inspired to read it after seeing and enjoying a movie called Brick, starring Joseph Gordon Levitt. It's a noir detective story told in a California high school setting. It sounds like it could be really stupid, but it's done with such sincerity that it works surprisingly well.

Chandler and Crumley: the best crime guys. Prose so hard-boiled, you can peel it, salt it and eat it.

I've heard about "Brick"! I've got a couple of teenage sons and the wife and I are always looking for good flicks that don't involve CGI, comic book heroes and high body counts--I assume "Brick" was designed for a youth audience so d'you think my two smart lads would enjoy it?

6 and 7: I have teenage boys and would like them to see this as well.

September reading:

Starting The Master and Margarita as a group read on September 5 (with a group from LT) and very much looking forward to that.

Just finished my first and last Jodi Picault, called The Pact. It was lying around the office and I needed something to take to a waiting room. It was OK for airplane reading and that sort of thing. I don't think I'll be reading any others of hers.

Also just finished reading Sadika's Way, a gift from another LT member, which is sort of like a South Asian Roald Dahl story for adults. It was enjoyable, but the writing style was not all that tight and the narrator told too much about the characters' inner states. I think as I get older I like 3rd person omniscient less and less.

7:
I don't know if Brick was "designed" for a youth audience, but that's not to say teenagers wouldn't enjoy it. I mean, I'm only 23 so that's not so far off. The main hurdle is the language, which is right out of classic noir. It's a little bit odd to see high school students talking like that for 15 or 20 minutes, but once you buy the conceit it's great.

I'm gonna give it a shot (if I can find it here in town).

How about you, Anna?

I'll look for the DVD.

Plowing through Descent of Angels by Mitchel Scanlon. Another installment of the Horus Heresy series. Armored barbarian-knights using chainswords to fight monsters.

Still on the 80-page intro to Das Kapital And reading about the Russian campaign in Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and SALT negotiations in White House Years by Kissinger. Funny bit of coincidence with those 3 books.

After I get done with the Warhammer book, I'll start You Bright and Risen Angels, William Vollmann's first novel. It's also a comedy, which should be fascinating, given the bleak subject matter of his subsequent novels.

Last night I started a book with the fabulous title THE MYSTIC ARTS OF ERASING ALL SIGNS OF DEATH. Charlie Huston is the author of this gritty little number. Dude gets some impressive blurbs (including from Stephen King but I'll try not to hold that against him). I must say, so far, so good. Part of the plot deals with folks who have to clean up "trauma" scenes, murders and suicides, dealing with all sorts of gore and grimness. I'm not far in but at least to this point the author isn't wallowing in it, ladling on the offal, and the writing whips right along.

Now that I've tied up some summer projects, I wanna crack the spines of a pile o' fine books over the next few weeks. Looking forward to some decompression time...

Message edited by its author, Sep 3, 2009, 4:08pm.

Finished Descent of Angels today and began You Bright and Risen Angels -- I'll see how Vollmann handles this thing called comedy. A nice change from the 3300 pages of doom and gloom that is Rising Up and Rising Down

Review on Descent of Angels forthcoming.

Getting into Everything is Illuminated, and quite enjoying it. We'll see how the 2nd 2/3s are.

Brick is awesome and highly recommended.

just ordered 3 books from SPD, small publishers distributers in SF. One, in particular, i think Karl might like -

1 ATOMIK AZTEX by Sesshu Foster: VERY weird alternative history in which Aztecs rule. i hope i like it.

"You know, you are lucky you are reading this Codex instead of some other horseshit Propaganda like those written by Nazis, urbane closet fascists, the Black Hand Christian fundamentalists, Brown Shirts, wankers, weed-whackers, Victimologists, apologists, tobacconists, Sinologists, herpetologists, hack screenwriters, boxing promoters, after-hours bouncers, market analysts, teknocrats, middle managers, desk jockeys, Democrats, Republicrips, Nixon aides, patty-cake players, Cabinet ministers, Scandal mongers, White House reporters, Cokie Roberts, Norman Schwartzkopf, Bebe Rebozo, the Warren Commission, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Hr., and all the other world famous intellects and analysts of out time. Instead of their lies, falsehood, half-truths and self-deceptions, you are receiving the unannointed Truth and the unalloyed facts of someone who was there."

MUSIC: I-LXXIV by August Kleinzahler - poet does music criticism.

THE BLAFT ANTHOLOGY OF TAMIL PULP FICTION by Rakesh Khanna, Ed.: "Mad scientists! Hard-boiled detectives! Vengeful goddesses! Murderous robots! Scandalous starlets! Drug-fuelled love affairs! This anthology features seventeen stories by ten best-selling authors of Tamil crime, romance, science fiction, and detective stories, none of them ever before translated into English, along with reproductions of wacky cover art and question-and-answer sessions with some of the authors. Grab a masala vadai, sit back and enjoy!" sounds terrific.

#14 Cliff, I hope you enjoy The Mystic Arts of Erasing All Signs of Death. I'm a big Huston fan.

I finished Bordersnakes by James Crumley and Lux the Poet by Martin Millar today. Still working on The Killer Inside Me by Jim Thompson and The White Trilogy by Ken Bruen.

Millar, Crumley, Thompson...that's a great buncha scribblers.

I'm enjoying MYSTIC ARTS, it's a fun mix of the macabre and humour...

Message edited by its author, Sep 4, 2009, 10:10pm.

i really get a kick out of Millar's books. Very wacky but essentially very sweet.

#6 and 7: Absolutely love The Big Sleep; it's not just "detective fiction"--surprisingly well written.

Just finished The Cosmos Trilogy, Frederick Seidel. A reverse-Divine Comedy that ends in hell (Manhattan!).

About halfway through Typee and really liking it. Got the Library of America edition with Omoo and Mardi.

Started Doubt: A History by Jennifer Michael Hecht last night. So far, it's an interesting and entertaining read.

21> Typee is one of my favorite books. Glad you're enjoying it!

Typee is very exciting, Omoo much less so.

I have always loved the first paragraph of Mardi:

"We are off! The courses and topsails are set: the coral-hung anchor swings from the bow: and together the three royals are given to the breeze, that follows us out to sea like the baying of a hound. Out spreads the canvas---alow, aloft---boom-stretched, on both sides, with many a stun' sail; till like a hawk, with pinions poised, we shadow the sea with our sails, and reelingly cleave the brine."

Having been, but no longer, a charter subscriber to LOA the Mellvilles were the first books I got from them. I enjoyed the non-sea stories as much or more than the sea stories. Pierre is a great look at the conflict between social constraints, individualism, encroaching modernity and the consequences. Another favorite is Melville's shot at a picaresque, Israel Potter. The Confidence Man opens a window on one of the modes of river travel in the 1830's as well as a look at the various kinds of people one might meet on such a cruise. Very interesting look at Jacksonian America. Of course, Moby Dick is his premiere work for a reason. It IS the Great American Novel.

My review of Descent of Angels by Mitchel Scanlon:

http://blogcritics.org/books/article/boo...

Long story short ... meh. Yep, you heard it here first folks, a Warhammer 40K book I was then amused about.

One of my semi-irregular round-ups of what I've read & watched over the past month is here.

Re-started THE RED MEN by Matthew de Abaitua.

Started it before, thought it was promising...then put it down when I got caught up in edits. But this time I'll finish the bugger.

That's a good roster of books and films in your overview--I still envy you for how much you can fit into your day.

One thing, though: You were far too hard on "Equilibrium" and wayyyy to easy on "Event Horizon", which truly was rubbish from start to finish. What I love is when one of the characters in the film correctly translates a Latin phrase whereas all the technology and experts back on earth missed it.

The worst part of "Outland" , a silly film for which I retain some affection, is the actress who played the woman doctor. A godawful performance...

Message edited by its author, Sep 7, 2009, 10:50am.

25: Of course, Moby Dick is his premiere work for a reason. It IS the Great American Novel.

Why do you think so? What else would you compare with it?

What else could you compare with it?

I dont know, Blood Meridian, probably. The Glanton Gang is riding across the deserts at about the same time Melville is holed up writing and then rewriting Moby Dick. The poetry of the two books is noteworthy, both seem Shakespearean and biblical. I draw an analogy between the cruel massacre of the Indians and buffalo and the cruel massacre of the whales.

Message edited by its author, Sep 7, 2009, 2:17pm.

HUCKLEBERRY FINN? TOM SAWYER? NAKED AND THE DEAD? FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS? UNDERWORLD? V? CITIES OF THE RED NIGHT? ASK THE DUST? OF MICE AND MEN? Etc.

Wrong answer: Moby-Dick, like Jessica Alba's cleavage, is incomparable.

What about Salma Hayek's cleavage?

It's not comparable to Moby-Dick.

My quintessential American novel choice is Sometimes a Great Notion, actually. But to be fair, I've never read Moby Dick.

I would take both of those ladies' cleavage over Moby Dick any day. (Preferably at once.)

Moby Dick is a long and mostly uninteresting novel. I don't understand all the hype; there are a few enjoyable moments but it is hardly deserving of its reputation.

Huck Finn, on the other hand, is incredible. I would also put up East of Eden as a suggestion for a Great American Novel.

37: I've got to agree, though I would have probably phrased it more softly. I reread Moby Dick last year for the first time in about 10 years, and I just didn't think it was as good as I did when I was young. In fact, much less good. It's as good a book as there is to read before the Pequod sets sail; after that, it's not a novel at all--Melville stops caring entirely about plot and character--and it's repetitive and drab as philosophy. And I like Melville. But Moby Dick, ambitious and impressive as it is in many ways, just doesn't make--in my opinion, obviously--for even remotely good reading, at least defined as a novel.

All kinds of postmodern writers lose interest in plot and character, and we still call their output novels.

I don't. I call Pynchon, for example, after V Menippean Satire. I have some support, I think, from Northrop Frye.

Robert

Message edited by its author, Sep 8, 2009, 7:48pm.

GeoffWyss wrote: I just didn't think it was as good as I did when I was young. In fact, much less good.

Maybe your younger self knows best.

We've had this discussion about Moby Dick fairly recently. It is still a delight!

chamberk wrote: I would also put up East of Eden as a suggestion for a Great American Novel.

I find that Steinbeck has all the subtlety of a baseball bat to the head; I think his writing is more suited for juveniles.

Message edited by its author, Sep 8, 2009, 8:42pm.

I find that Steinbeck has all the subtlety of a baseball bat to the head; I think his writing is more suited for juveniles.

Considering your "debating" methods, chronically taking offense at everything, and literary dilettantism, I would highly recommend Steinbeckian therapy.

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPB1i9-uX...

I think semckibbin is one of the most polite and reasonable people here, far from a troll. Suggesting that they take a bat to the head is not appropriate.

Good God, Karl, where do you find those insane links?

I think there has been a less than friendly spirit of healthy debate in this group for the past while and I take my share of the blame. There's also a tendency by some to try to win "points" or appear more erudite in discussions and rebuttals. I'll make an effort to be more civil and hope, collectively, we can do something to get out of this silly-ass bickering mode. While snobs can tend to have strong views, closely held, that can also lead to an "Oh, yeah, says you..." kind of atmosphere which is helpful to no one.

I got out of SF Group, frankly, because of the same feeling.

We're here to share our favorite literary offerings with each other and get good tips from smart people who know books.

I suggest if a particular member annoys you with their posts, ignore them, start a different thread. Clearly there's a clash of personalities at work, differing views on what constitutes humor, satire, hyperbole, etc.

But we can do better than this.

What say you, good people?

**Monocle drops into his cognac**

"What! What!"

But seriously, I agree with Cliff here, Canadian heritage notwithstanding. It's easy for some to take things too seriously and sometimes my unique brand of wacky humor doesn't translate so well on these here Interwebs.

It's a freakin' online discussion! There are bigger things to worry about, like the economy, the Middle East, etc., etc. Let's all try, including me, to keep things civil and sensible.

***

On an absurdist note, I'm enjoying You Bright and Risen Angels by Vollmann. Das Kapital looks like it will be a particularly hard slog, even with Marx's trademark bon mots. It's a challenge to make economics interesting, although, given our current economic predicament, it's a good place as any to examine how our market economy works. And Kissinger's White House Years proves he was a long-winded bore. As a matter of raw page count, Kissinger's memoirs are longer than Das Kapital.

***

A nice article on the concept of "creative criticism":

http://quarterlyconversation.com/excerpt...

Message edited by its author, Sep 8, 2009, 10:11pm.

Eh, I *had* to read Moby Dick for a class and it just didn't click with me. There are definite moments of greatness in that novel, but I find them drowned out by the sheer number of Whaling Facts that Melville likes to share.

And while I'll admit that "The Pearl" and "The Grapes of Wrath" aren't exactly the most subtle books in the world, I still feel Steinbeck's the most enjoyable writer to have been inducted into the American canon.

45:
Are you seeing any parallels between You Bright... and Rising Up... yet? From what I know about both books, they have a lot to do with one another vis a vis violence and when it's justified and what its unintended consequences are.

46: I had to read Moby Dick and Pride and Prejudice in high school. Needless to say, MD won out. While I admire Austen as a writer -- at least now, I didn't in high school -- it couldn't compete with whale-hunting. Granted, in high school I read the abridged version.

47: I don't see that many parallels between YBRA and RURD, although both deal with violence.

Gee, Karl, I had no idea you were such a rabid Steinbeck fan. I'll try to remember to limit my negative remarks to Rand and Meyer.

cliffburns wrote: There's also a tendency by some to try to win "points" or appear more erudite in discussions and rebuttals.

That's one way to look at it. Another way might be that some people make outrageous claims and others are merely calling them on it. Do you think there is any harm in that?

Finished The Killer Inside Me by Jim Thompson last night; I think I'll be doing an Amazon order of his other titles in the near future.

Moving on to The Big Sleep by Raymond Chandler, Desolation Road by Ian McDonald and The Player of Games by Iain M. Banks.

Fantastic roster of books.

Jim Thompson wrote an essay in one of his books about encountering the character the guy in KILLER INSIDE ME was based on. It's a chilling account and Thompson (who was living rough at the time) had no doubt that this guy would've killed him in a heartbeat with absolutely no emotion.

"Andre Brink": "A chain of voices". Going serious.

Brink...now there's a name I haven't heard for awhile. Good on ya...

To my taste, Steinbeck's best are his knock-offs. My troika of Steinbeck is Tortilla Flat, Cannery Row, and Sweet Thursday. A caveat: having read everything Steinbeck wrote before I was twenty, I haven't read anything by him since. A couple of years ago, I tried to reread one of my favorites of his, In Dubious Battle, and was unable to get much past the first fifty pages. When I read it the first time, about age 17, I just loved it and was (literally) blown away by the ending. As an adult his voice just did not resonate with me.

54: Actually, I liked Grapes of Wrath It was long and unpleasant and made my blood boil, but that's a good thing. Not all Great Literature is about New England literature professors wanting to commit adultery ... although those are good too. Given our present Economic Unpleasantness (aka the Whirlwind Wrought By the Town Hall-ers Pride), Steinbeck's magnum opus is overdue for a remake. When it comes to national suffering and the plight of the poor, sometimes a baseball bat is the best means of attack. Ayn Rand wouldn't approve, but she's too busy drinking the blood of orphans to care ... and caring is the attribute of the weak; the strong are selfish, amoral, rape-loving uber-chicks who want to form rough sex communes with their anarcho-capitalist chums. Or something.

I also liked The Wayward Bus It's been a while since I read it, but I remember it was a pleasant read.

I enjoy Steinbeck and Henry James in equal measure. Steinbeck's cheerleading for the Vietnam War I'm not so hot on. Then again, if I agreed with everything of a certain author, my library would consist of 25 books. Variety and different perspectives make reading fun.

Speaking of Brink, I found A Rumor of Rain at a Goodwill-type store. Looks like a fascinating read. A nice change from the Monopoly of all thing Coetzee for South African lit.

Steinbeck is one of the few writers I love despite his near inability to craft a decent sentence. I mean, even Bukowski's a ballerina by comparison.

Steinbeck is no Waugh or Proust, that's for sure. But when you are writing about hardscrabble life on the precipice of the socioeconomic abyss, the last thing I want to read is a hyper-polished sentence. Then again, Steinbeck has grit and dirt and coarseness, as opposed to James Patterson who is a sub-literate bestseller producing machine.

When it comes to national suffering and the plight of the poor, sometimes a baseball bat is the best means of attack.

Yes, sometimes a baseball bat is the only thing that can get some people (because they are self-absorbed or merely focused on other things) to notice other less fortunate people in real life and show kindness them. For that purpose, Grapes of Wrath is an important book and I am thankful it was written.

In another thread I have been arguing that art must have a moral element, but I think Steinbeck's moral baseball bat has unbalanced Grapes of Wrath as a work of art.

Just completed Matthew De Abaitua's THE RED MEN.

Smart, literate SF, highly recommended. Trippy central concept, well-drawn characters, good storyline and pacing.

The author has pretty good credentials, including a tenure as editor-at-large at THE IDLER.

still obsessed w/ watching the US Open streamed over the internets so not reading much at the moment.

60:
Haha, same here. Soderling's taking quite a drubbing this evening.

Message edited by its author, Sep 9, 2009, 10:19pm.

Soderling actually put up something of a fight for the last 2 sets - so good for him.

When i used to go to pro tourneys, i really liked to go watch players just hitting on the practice courts. Standing right behind them just outside the fence, i immediately realized that there was no way in hell i could ever win a point attempting to play w/ these guys..6/0 and love games all the way. (Back in the waning days of Rod Laver and at the point when players were starting to switch from wood to metal rackets; now the game is ~ 10% ? 15% ? faster still). For some reason i was a fan of Torben Urlrich and Jaime Fillol, v. good, but by no means great, players. And Arthur Ashe, but i never saw him play in person.

58: "Steinbeck's moral baseball bat has unbalanced Grapes of Wrath as a work of art."

Yep, that's undeniable. But I somehow forgive him that because his heart is so in the right place. When I criticized Steinbeck's sentence-making earlier, I wasn't at all saying I didn't like him.

I'm not sure Grapes of Wrath is trounced by the moral baseball bat.

There's a good deal in there that people miss. I think it's significant that none of the contemporary critics actually seemed to get the book -- they were too busy decrying its supposed Marxism.

It's Steinbeck's misfortune that he was at odds with the established politics and literary movements of his day.

I think Grapes of Wrath is a great book, and just because its aims are easily discernible doesn't lessen its worth. However, I started out talking about East of Eden, which I think is a far superior book...

Almost done with Everything is Illuminated, which will probably go up there along with Infinite Jest and The Book Thief as favorite books that I've read this year...

However, I started out talking about East of Eden, which I think is a far superior book...

Even that part halfway through the book where the Chinese servant reveals he speaks impeccable English?

Because Chinese servants should never speak impeccable English. Literature's most important project is, after all, to reinforce our stereotypes.

Right?

I'm not a big fan of East of Eden. I think it's a big, sprawling mess. So is Moby Dick, mind you, but the sprawl benefits the latter.

Message edited by its author, Sep 11, 2009, 8:34am.

Maybe Steinbeck should have put in about 50 pages about what wood should go into making a whaling ship.

I think he did. Most people can't really remember the first half of East of Eden; he could have put pretty much anything in there.

Eh, it's better than having only one memorable character whose sole defining characteristic is maniacal pursuit of a whale.

Well, no, there's that other dude with the tattoos.

And the dude with the tattoos who maniacally pursues whales.

"Call me...call me..."

Oh, shit, my memory isn't what it used to be.

Oatmeal.

Ishkibibble...

Ishmael?

If Steinbeck's moralizing lessens the power of Grapes of Wrath, does that make Picasso's Guernica merely scribbles on canvas?

Ooo, Karl's sharp tonight...

I guess. What with the Nazis dropping bombs on Spanish civilians. But no, let's read about some dithering aristocrat in the tomes of Henry James or Vladimir Nabokov ;)

With the right-wing having gone officially insane and crossed the threshold of Stupid, it might be time to come armed with literary baseball bats. Remember, when these people get angry, gay clubs and federal buildings usually end up on fire or exploded. Just an FYI. Time to put that "bipartisanship and healing" myth to sleep. Someone needs to write The Grapes of Wrath for the poor and uninsured in the United States, since the robber barons and theocrats would prefer to drink blood from the freshly harvested skulls of orphans while posturing they are "true Christians." There. I said it.

Those who don't face evil are complicit with it.

How, then, with me, writing of this Leviathan? Unconsciously my chirography expands into placard capitals. Give me a condor's quill! Give me Vesuvius' crater for an inkstand! Friends, hold my arms! For in the mere act of penning my thoughts of this Leviathan, they weary me, and make me faint with their outreaching comprehensiveness of sweep, as if to include the whole circle of the sciences, and all the generations of whales, and men, and mastodons, past, present, and to come, with all the revolving panoramas of empire on earth, and throughout the whole universe, not excluding its suburbs. Such, and so magnifying, is the virtue of a large and liberal theme! We expand to its bulk. To produce a mighty book, you must choose a mighty theme.

As we can see in the previous posts, it's not for everyone---and that doesnt bother me a bit. I see the novel as marvelous poetry and indeed a mighty book that covers everything.

I'm still trying to finish Moby Dick, but it is only midlly interesting to me. There are moments that are great, beautifully written, and then there are the lists of whale features. I'm trying to hold out forming an opinion until I get to the end. And once upon a time I counted East of Eden as my favorite book. I read all of Steinbeck I could get my hands on at the time. That was about 15-20 years ago. Perhaps it is better that we don't reread books so beloved at a young age.

Someone mentioned Proust in passing, so I have to pose this question now. Please tell me it is worth it. I am only about 75 pages in to Swann's Way and so far he has woken up, oh yeah, and eaten a cookie. I know this is not about the plot but the craft of writing. I have been reading it at school in only fifteen minute increments. I could tell this was a book that needs more than that so I brought it home. I'm hoping that when I can focus more, it will impress me more.

I have only read Proust's short stories, but I think he's probably the greatest 'pure writer', ever.

Combray is soooo important to the whole work. Geneviève de Brabant, the man with pop eyes and all that. And some stuff isnt clear until you finish Time Regained and go back and re-read.

But dont wait for the book to impress you, read into it.

In reality every reader is, while he is reading, the reader of his own self. The writer's work is merely a kind of optical instrument which he offers to the reader to discern what, without this book, he would have perhaps never perceived in himself. And the recognition by the reader in his own self of what the book says is the proof of its veracity,the contrary also being true, at least to a certain extent, for the difference between the two texts may sometimes be imputed less to the author than the reader. Besides, the book may be too learned, too obscure for a simple reader, and may therefore present to him a clouded glass through which he cannot read ... In order to read with understanding many readers require to read in their own particular fashion, and the author must not be indignant at this; on the contrary, he must leave the reader all possible liberty, saying to him: "Look for yourself, and try whether you see best with this lens or that one or this other one." ---Time Regained (translated by Mayor and Kilmartin, and revised by Enright)

Message edited by its author, Sep 12, 2009, 3:02pm.

Proust is very, very easy, as this reveals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwAOc4g3K...

#80: It's also a book about subjectivity, the nature of self, and the way we experience the world in time and space. And a whole lot of other things. Aging, love, jealousy, etc. If you make it through Swann's Way and haven't enjoyed it, I'd suggest that Proust isn't for you. (But don't think that one can "get" Proust just by reading Swann's Way! Rather, know that the style and thematic concerns will be similar all the way through.)

The cover that you have displayed on your profile page suggests that you're reading the Moncrieff version. I don't personally recommend it, I find it way too florid and suspiciously Victorian--I much prefer Lydia Davis' recent translation, in the Penguin Prousts. It's beautiful and flows very smoothly. Others, feel free to pipe up and disagree.

My Proust reading has been set aside for now, but I'll weigh in on versions and agree with Medillia. I prefer the Davis (and I tried the Moncreiff) and am disappointed that she doesn't continue with vol. 2. Do the vol. 2 transltors measure up Medillia?

Started reading Where the Wild Things Were by William Stolzenburg. It's about ecological disasters following the disappearance of top-tier predators. Thanks to the LT Early Reviewers program.

#85: No, Davis's Swann's Way was a vast deal better than Grieve's In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower. I found Grieve's translation quite a bit more difficult to follow, reread sentences many more times than in the first volume, and I think it lacked some of the musical beauty and coherence of the first volume. Grieve's was my least favorite translation of the seven volumes, but fear not--Mark Treharne's The Guermantes Way follows, and it is really wonderful.

That's the problem with the Penguin translations, they're of inconsistent quality from volume to volume. Though I'm really being kind of fussy; they all have their merits, I just wish that we could've had Lydia Davis running the whole show.

found a copy of Against the Day by Pynchon in the library a few days ago and started reading it. So far so good. Decided to read Anna Karenina a la Clive James that is , in the original language. found a couple of sites with the Russian text on the internet and have made my way through a few chapters. My Russian is rusty -grammar good -vocabulary bad. but LT is fun to read and far easier than say Gogol, Biely, or Bulgakov. Also started Le Ton Beau de Marot by Hofstadter

Message edited by its author, Sep 12, 2009, 7:00pm.

Reading ANNA in original Russian. Now that's impressive. Elitist. Wonderfully and irredeemably snobby.

Welcome, welcome...

Started the Pynch's INHERENT VICE this afternoon. I could get hit by a car next week and I want to make sure I read this one before I feel the bite of that Buick's bumper.

Describing a black velvet painting hanging in Doc Sportello's living room:

"Sometimes in the shadows the view would light up, usually when he was smoking weed, as if the contrast knob of Creation had been messed with just enough to give everything an underglow, a luminous edge, and promise that the night was about to turn epic somehow."

Nice...

Does the velvet painting "tie the room together"?

"Contrast knob of Creation." Dude, that's sweet. I can imagine the Pynch sucking on a V-2-shaped bong and writing that down. Or he may simply be like Zappa and just enjoy legal stimulants like coffee and cigarettes.

Speaking of which, where's that other literary recluse, Osama bin Laden? It's been a while since he released a video. Maybe he's helping Dubya write his memoirs.

Or helping him "fix the cable" ... wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz2ET5K6z...

The Dude and the Doc are definitely bong-mates, V-shaped or otherwise.

VICE is very funny and while this book is accessible, it certainly ain't dumb.

But I'd better get back to it...

Medellia wrote: ... the Moncrieff version. I don't personally recommend it, I find it way too florid and suspiciously Victorian

But, jeez, Medellia, Moncrief is the only available English edition for La Prisonnière and Albertine disparue. What is a person to do?

#80 I might make reading Proust one of my reading projects next year. I've had the Penguin set for a few years but never got started on them.

#93: Order them from the UK, that's what. (Hooray for sane copyright laws!)

There's also Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright, of course, which I find to be somewhat better than Moncrieff.

What do I know, though--I read a claim in an article (I've forgotten where) that after Moncrieff came out, most of the French preferred to read Proust in English if they could. They said that Proust's prose was too simple and direct, that he'd been too influenced by Ruskin. Quelle horreur!

Edit: Looks like the story can be traced back to Kilmartin (I'm sure I saw it quoted elsewhere)--first page only available here, unless you have JSTOR access:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/25006372

Message edited by its author, Sep 13, 2009, 10:45am.

I have the three-volume Moncrieff as well. Lovely set but I know not everyone is fond of this translation...

Finished The Savage Detectives - in the last 100 pages or so my opinion turned from "this book is a bit of a chore" to "this is a pretty great book". Glad I didn't give up on it.

Started DFW's Consider the Lobster after an argument with a fellow English major. She said I should stop talking so much about David Foster Wallace. I responded by going out to the library and finding one of his books, so I could talk more about him.

Good, challenging reading there. I'm still eying Bolano's 2666...but first I have to finish the new Pynchon...

Just finished reading A Doll's House by Henrik Ibsen. Thought it was marvelous. I can only imagine how shocking it must have been when it was written in 1879.

I like Ibsen too, more than Chekhov. Strindberg, from what I've read, is a pretty innerestin' fella too.

Seen any stage or screen adaptations of DOLL'S HOUSE or HEDDA GABLER?

Medellia wrote: ... the Moncrieff version. I don't personally recommend it, I find it way too florid and suspiciously Victorian.

Considering the length of Proust's sentences, I would hope they would be florid. While I personally enjoy the Moncrieff version -- I have the 6-volume set -- I read somewhere that the long sentences reflect Proust's asthmatic state, each sentence using the maximum of each breath. As someone with asthma, I found that revelation particularly worthwhile.

97: Authority and American Usage is a brilliant essay and you get a nice little footnote on Wittgenstein (or rather Malcolm's paraphrase of Wittgenstein) to boot.

medellia wrote: There's also Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright, of course, which I find to be somewhat better than Moncrieff.

My misunderstanding. When you said Moncrief I read that as an abbreviation for Moncrief/Kilmartin/Enright (and Mayor).

#103: Well, I was originally talking about straight-up Moncrieff, because I recognized the photo on emaestra's page as a Modern Library Moncrieff edition from the '50s. I have that edition, too. I don't want to come across as absolutely anti-Moncrieff; I've read some of the first and last volumes in those old editions. It's a very different experience, and not my preference (and I suspect may present a more difficult first reading than the Penguins), but it has its charms.

It gets confusing, of course--Cliff, for example, I notice that you have the Moncrieff/Kilmartin, not the original Moncrieff. I finished the Penguins last month. The Le Salon Litteraire folks are reading Proust (at least the first two volumes) starting next June, so I think I'm going to read Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright then.

Message edited by its author, Sep 13, 2009, 12:59pm.

Sonofabitch...

Medellia, right as usual.

So there's Moncrieff, then the Moncrieff/Kilmartin, then the Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright?

I have to go get an Advil or three...

The Le Salon Litteraire folks are reading Proust (at least the first two volumes) starting next June,

And you are going to lead the reading, yes? How will you structure the reading?

#105: Oh Cliff, btw, I've been thinking of you lately. Hubby and I are reading out loud to each other your very favorite book in the world: Emma. He spilled cherry snowcone on it a few weeks back and I think I'm going to replace this edition--would you like me to send you our red-spattered copy?

#106: Ha, I just recently got roped into that one, so I haven't given it too much thought yet. Luckily, things in there are more of a circus of enthusiastic erudition than a structured learning environment, and a number of the folks in there have already read Proust. So it'll probably be a case of "let's read the first two volumes over the summer, chatter and post links and quotes from Proust and his scholars, and then see if/when we feel like moving on to volume 3."

Sounds cool. I was reading the M&M thread and it was very engaging.

Ah, Medellia, that memory of yours. EMMA (shudder). Are you sure your hubby wasn't unconsciously offering some kind of critique?

As someone who's grudgingly come around to Austen for the most part, Emma is still the most annoying book of the 19th century.

Bless you for saying so...

Finished The Big Sleep and then got distracted from other books by Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris. Enjoying it quite a bit.

Started my mass market paperback of Les Miserables in school a few days ago. So far, it's pleasant and easy. It is to be my school-only book, which means I won't be done for a long, long time...

#113: MacAfee/Fahnestock translation? I started it this weekend myself, and I'm surprised at how easily it reads. My mass market is already beginning to show signs of wear--I really wish I could find this translation in a trade paperback or hardcover.

I picked the cover of Swann's Way primarily because it was readable on my profile. The copy I am reading is the Vintage International Moncrieff/Kilmartin version. I also have a six-volume set from Folios Society, translated by Moncrieff (this set was impetus for starting to read Proust), and an Easton Press copy, also translated by Moncrieff. This last one is enormous. I considered taking that one to school one day and then returning the next day with the trade paperback size copy. You know, just to mess with my students' minds. Again, I am going to give it a go at home where I'm not also trying to regulate a class full of fifteen-year-old kids at the same time. Now that I write that, it occurs to me to wonder how I've ever managed to read anything in class.

Message edited by its author, Sep 13, 2009, 8:27pm.

Reading Auster's shadowy, spare in the country of last things describing the hardscrabble existence in a post-mysterious apocalypse city in a long letter from the writer to home as she seeks her sibling, lost there too. In an understated way, some of the bits are oddly amusing; one of the many ways of choosing death is training for intense group runs that end with fatal exhaustion. (As i've been a member of an on line running group called "the dead runners society" since ~1991, this mode seemed esp. apropos).

That's a terrific Auster book, one of my two or three faves by that author. Brilliantly executed...

>114 - Just the one! Mine hasn't shown much wear yet, but that will change, particularly since it's a tight fit in my backpack...

#115: Ah! Well, M/K will probably do you well, then. If the Folio set is the one published in 2001 (the crazy blue Art Nouveau looking thing w/photos by Atget), that one is Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright. *drool* I would love to have that set, though money and space are both an issue... (And yes, kudos for reading in a room full of 15-year-olds. :)

#110 chamberk: Actually, my own choice for most annoying novel of the 19th century would be Wuthering Heights. It's like nails on a chalkboard for me.

#120: At least Wuthering Heights has that scene where some dogs chase the narrator around a table. That was the sole highlight of the book.

Have to agree about Wuthering Heights. A real dreadful mess of a book.

Just finished the last page of INHERENT VICE.

A lovely read, made me laugh out loud various times and it's a pretty fine mystery too (as well as being an endearing character study of a pothead P.I.).

Had to snicker at the jacket copy: "In this lively yarn, Thomas Pynchon, working in an unaccustomed genre..."

Unaccustomed genre? All of the Pynch's work inhabits an unaccustomed genre. Cripes.

123: Any ninjas or nihilists?

FYI: The BFI series has a wonderful volume on The Big Lebowski, focusing on the antecedents and allusions as well as its take on masculinity (since Los Bros Coen also directed No Country for Old Men)

Nope, but lotsa hippie stoners and y'know those scenes in hard-boiled crime novels/movies where the shamus is whacked on the head and "the ground opened up and I fell into it"?

The Pynch blows that shit RIGHT out of the water...

"Winter comes to water as well as land, though there are no leaves to fall." (from "The Island of Dr. Death & Other Stories")

Is that one of the worst opening lines you've ever read?

And it comes from a writer who is often held up at the PARAGON of fine writing in SF/Fantasy, none other than Gene Wolfe.

I tried to read a couple of stories from THE BEST OF GENE WOLFE and couldn't make it past the first page. I attempted one of his novels once, years ago, and ended up pitching it across the room. Any Wolfe fans out there? Defenders? Someone who can tell me what's so staggeringly brilliant about the guy?

#120 - one of my weekly English essays fresh. yr was titled "wuthering heights rewuthered." WH and the essays of Thomas Carlyle, which put me to sleep regularly for a month and resulted in my first, and maybe only, late essay were the two books i had the worst time with.

I commented a few weeks back, after reading a recent collection of Wolfe's short stories, that he just didn't work for me - 4 stories out of the whole book were enjoyable.

The Fifth Head of Cerberus is a classic, although as much because it is a literary puzzle as for anything else. The Book of the New Sun is also very good, although having reread it recently for a LT group read I found it less satisfying than I'd remembered it. The Book of the Long Sun is quite good, The Book of the Short Sun is near-incomprehensible. Wolfe's other long fiction varies - some is good, some is okay.

I hate his short fiction. Most of it, anyway.

Bob, come to think of it I believe I DO recall your not caring for Wolfe--and I'm relieved I'm not the only one here who raises and lowers his shoulders at the high regard SF/fantasy fans hold re: the guy.

Then again, that's hardly the most discerning and well-read demographic so...

And judging by the lengthy roster of books he's written, I gotta wonder if his reputation is inflated wayyy past his actual talent.

Message edited by its author, Sep 15, 2009, 11:23am.

I also go back and forth on Wolfe. I enjoyed the The Book of the New Sun, but other books just don't seem to pull me in the same way. I've been trying to read Latro in the Mist for a while now and there's something to it, but I find that it's all to easy to allow myself get distracted by more compelling books.

i'm perfectly fine with there being good/excellent authors who, for whatever reason, just don't appeal to me. With G. Wolfe i'm not sure what the turn off is. His sentences and paragraphs are fine - i think that i don't care for his stories and characters.

Too many "Wolfe"s out there writing. I like a good bit of Tom Wolfe's work - one of the relatively few who really enjoyed i am charlotte simmons - though largely because, however much Wolfe claimed that it wasn't about Duke U, where one of his daughters went, the descriptions of the school and student body fit dook and dookies to a T. *or to a "D" i guess i should say..

Message edited by its author, Sep 15, 2009, 10:49am.

Finished The Bell Jar - overall okay, reminded me a bit of Catcher in the Rye. I didn't find the main character too sympathetic until the 2nd half of the book, but it was interesting just to see her reactions to that time's societal norms and expectations for women. Can't help but compare her to Betty Draper on Mad Men...

Started Lethem's The Fortress of Solitude, and am finishing up Fitzgerald's The Beautiful and Damned. Both are pretty good, though Fitzgerald's extremely ornamented prose and spoiled brats of characters are not quite as interesting as they were in Gatsby, which I recently reread.

132: I had a similar reaction to Tender Is the Night; read it?

Re-reading Alan Weisman's THE WORLD WITHOUT US.

Scary and depressing but fascinating reading. Sobering non-fic and lots of fodder for misanthropes like yers truly. And don't forget to check out his multi-media website, it's well worth the visit.

I thought The World Without Us was a hopeful book.

Robert

Spoken like a true homo sap hater, Robert. Bravo.

There's also a really good National Geographic show called "Life After Humans" or something like that. Watched it with my sons and they were ENTRANCED. Sam even designed a Dungeons and Dragons quest around it. I think it was the notion of mutated, flying cats springing between deserted high rises that inspired him...

135-136: My kids would agree. We've often talked about how great the world would be if all humans suddenly disappeared. It might take a few hundred/thousand/million years for our damage to be repaired, but it would still be a great immediate improvement.

Anna: take your kids on a visit to Weisman's web site. Lots of good stuff:

http://www.worldwithoutus.com/

We've often talked about how great the world would be if all humans suddenly disappeared. It might take a few hundred/thousand/million years for our damage to be repaired, but it would still be a great immediate improvement.

Ay yi yi. Apparently, humans need a better PR department. Perhaps we can hire some Galactics for the job, we dont seem to be up to it.

>137 - That's something that bothered me a lot when I was younger - overpopulation. And it doesn't stop, no, no... Now I don't mind as much when I consider I'll probably be dead before too much becomes of it. Well, I hope. It's what I tell myself, at least.

In #137 Anna takes a position I don't understand at all. She says,

"135-136: My kids would agree. We've often talked about how great the world would be if all humans suddenly disappeared. It might take a few hundred/thousand/million years for our damage to be repaired, but it would still be a great immediate improvement."

For whom or what would this be an immediate improvement? The world, earth, Gaia? The earth is a cold, hard, chunk of rock covered over its surface by miles and miles of the detritus of life. It reacts without thinking, valuing or otherwise judging the rationality of its actions, according to the laws of physics and the universe. If all people die what will it be restored to? What will be the meaning of restored?

Earth after people is a counter-productive view. The Earth will survive unless we blow it to smithereens or some cosmic event causes such a thing. We are not ruining the earth, we are fouling our nest. Talking about how the earth will "recover" after we are gone, to me is meaningless and dangerous in the idea that this is about the earth at the expense of its human population. Even dogs understand the benefits of not fouling their dens.

This is not an issue of destroying the earth. If you really feel earth would benefit by no people, then stop working for groups like the Nature Conservancy, or the Sierra Club, or anyone who wants to "save" the earth. Environmentalism is not about saving the earth, it's about saving mankind. If you want to "save" the earth by killing off humanity, then join the polluters.

Once we're gone the earth will do whatever physics tells it to do, including become star food for the sun in some few billions of years.

Earth after people is a counter-productive view.

Can you please forward this view to the Pentagon, since they are in the people-eradication business.

"Earth after people" might look a lot like the DMZ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Demi...

Gene, that's been my message. The sooner we terminally foul our nest the sooner the Earth can begin to find its new natural balance.

Robert

Message edited by its author, Sep 19, 2009, 4:08pm.

Are you saying you care more about the earth than its people? I could give two hoots in hell about the earth, it's the inhabitants that I am interested in. As it turns out, restoring the environment to some semblance of its ancient, more pristine state is good for us, but the earth doesn't have a care one way or the other. The issue is not about saving the earth, It is about saving its inhabitants.

When environmentalism is couched in terms of saving the planet, it loses that intimate connection between the planet, which needs saving from us not one whit (plate tectonics should be instructive as to how the earth regards its passengers), and its inhabitants who rely on conditions present at their evolution and thus need saving greatly as those conditions are worn away.

I know this sounds like nit-picking but just such misconceptions as this lead to negative outcomes such as "let's get rid of all the people".

Let's be quite clear about who needs the fruits of the environmentalist's labors. I'll give you a hint, it ain't the earth.

Message edited by its author, Sep 19, 2009, 4:45pm.

Oops, belongs in another thread.

Message edited by its author, Sep 19, 2009, 4:59pm.

I can't be utterly dismissive of the future of human life on earth since I've got two fine, smart sons who I hope will be instrumental in righting many wrongs...including 200 years of nest-fouling with "satanic mills" and noxious vapors...

>144 - Though human extinction might turn out better for some other lifeforms. I'm not an advocate of everyone dying prematurely, since we'll all get there eventually regardless. I just really wish there were fewer of us.

I'm reading Where the Wild Things Were by William Stolzenburg. It discusses what happens to ecosystems when the top predators vanish ... usually some sort of ecological collapse. While man has been described as the "ultimate predator", I think the accusation is misguided. We aren't the top predators out there -- we don't stand a chance against grizzly bears or great white sharks -- but we are the "ultimate grazers" (hello! Agriculture and domesticated animals!). One of the books theses is that when top predators are obliterated, then mid-level predators or grazers flourish, increasing their populations to max carrying capacity. Then wildflowers and other species vanish while the ecosystem is stripped of its resources. We are not the wolves, we are the deer: overabundant, super-hungry, fat, lazy, and sucking up resources like a vacuum cleaner.

Though human extinction might turn out better for some other lifeforms.

I dont think you can sell that as a program for political action.

Usually I disagree with geneg but he is right on this one.

Yeah, Gene, you're on fire this week.

>149 - I wasn't suggesting taking action, you know. If it happens it happens and if it doesn't, it just doesn't. Whatever will be will be, and I'm not inclined to do anything about it.

And I'm not sure what "program" you think I was selling.

Message edited by its author, Sep 20, 2009, 11:04am.

Mebbe you're one of the folks alluded to in THE WORLD WITHOUT US who actively wish for the extermination of the human race and actually post recipes on-line for barbeque sauce that would go well with human flesh?

I read that section with my mouth hanging open. That's one internet search I won't be conducting, even out of curiosity...

7 billion people, limited oil, food, and potable water ... what could possibly go wrong? Luckily we have political dictatorships and absolute monarchies to keep people in the dark ... not to mention corrupt, inept democracies ... that keep people satisfied with their lot. But if people started becoming dissatisfied with their status as starving and politically powerless, then we have another problem on our hands.

>152 - I don't really wish for it, since I happen to be human and am satisfied with dying of old age (or other causes), and once I'm gone it doesn't matter to me what happens to everyone else. I just like thinking theoretically about the benefits and drawbacks of human extinction.

As for barbecue sauce with human flesh, I'd have to taste the latter before making any recommendations. ;-) In general, barbecue sauce fails to please me, though. I'd probably go with ketchup.

>153 - Yes, I can't imagine how it could go wrong.

ummm despite my rather bleak views on what's likely to happen to planet earth, i'd rather not be proven right. But, nevertheless, i read.
----
Several decent quick light books. A mystery/thriller Londongrad by a writer i didn't know (and checking ownership of Nadelson's books, neither do many others on LT). Set among the Russian emigre and expat communities of New York and London a NYC detective, whose dad was once a prominent KGB agent, finds himself tossed into the sea of Russian mafia and newly rich oligarchs. Artie Cohen tries to piece together the murders of two young Russian women, one of whom is the daughter of his best friend in NYC, former Russian rocker, now a wheeler-dealer club owner, businessman w/ few compunctions about making shady deals.

Quite a bit of interesting background on the Russian urban communities and their internal conflicts that have spilled well beyond the bounds of the old USSR as well as the confusing post 9/11 mixing of "traditional crime," spying and terrorism. 4 stars - i'll be curious if i enjoy the earlier novels in this series - i hope our library has a few, at least!.

2. Robertson Davies the rebel angels. I very much enjoyed this academic novel w/ enough humorous/ironic twists to keep matters percolating along. Set in a Toronto uni, told from the POV of several of the protagonists, the stories gently mock the obsessive importance researchers place upon their quests. There's the fair and brilliant grad student, Maria, on one level denying her familial gypsy roots and on the other, w/ the aid of her academic mentor and hero, Hollier, digging ever deeper into them as they dig into the medieval pasts illumined by Rabelais and Paracelsus.

There's also a well meaning and not-altogether foolish academic prelate; an altogether sleazy but intermittantly brilliant skeptical philosopher, Parlabane, who, unfit for academia, proves more or less unfit for life in any other setting as well. The overload on the humanities is balanced by the researches of Prof. Ozy Froats, into the revelatory nature of human shit. And then the mundane world of business and commerce intrudes as a wealthy alumnus asks 3 of the Uni's professors to act of executors of his extensive, albeit uncatalogued collection of art, incunabula, music scores and the like along with his seemingly banal banker son, Arthur.

Through no fault of her own, Maria casts her spell on all the males who fall into her orbit. Parlabane, making an art out of parasitism, leaves his magnum opus, a terribly crappy tell all roman a clef, in the hands of the "decent" executors. Maria's gypsy uncle and mom (among other things, restorers of classic string instruments) add their bits to the mysterious goings on. The obsessions become themes in themselves. This IS a very talky novel (but universities are talky institutions). While there are odd incongruities of voice (the brilliant and beautiful Maria seems oddly middle aged in much of her tellings), all in all, very enjoyable and i'll be getting hold of the sequels to the Cornish trilogy.

3. Also enjoying Tamil Pulp Fiction - as the back cover enthuses: "mad scientists! hard boiled detectives!. vengeful goddesses! murderous robots! scandalous starlets! drug fueled love affairs." Stories from a variety of Tamil pop fiction writers that, despite their garish and dramatic plot lines, are (not unlike Bollywood movies, from what little i know) are really quite demure and generally highly moral in their telling. The added benefit of including cover art from the pulp magazines in which the writers publish - prolifically.

Message edited by its author, Sep 20, 2009, 6:20pm.

ummm despite my rather bleak views on what's likely to happen to planet earth, i'd rather not be proven right. But, nevertheless, i read.

Given what passes for political discourse of the past few months, selective extinction of certain "town hall" types would be a definite blessing. Then again, these people are probably in league with the health insurance lobby to exterminate the uninsured via swine flu. Anything to keep their rates high. Isn't free market capitalism in every aspect of human life just lovely?

Finished another chapter in Das Kapital and I'm almost done with Where the Wild Things Were

I'm about to jump into Fatelessness by Kertész.

If health insurance constituted a free market it might work as intended, bring competition and the benefits thereof. In most, if not all states, all insurance is highly regulated, usually in such a way as to protect the companies from competition.

#141- Couldn't agree more. I am an ardent environmentalist and humanist, and I don't find those things to be at odds. While I don't find humans more important than other living creatures in the long run, I am astonished by the view that humans are less important than other species. It reminds me of the misguided liberals who constantly blame America for every bad thing that happens in the world. Sure, we've screwed up a lot, but this kind of attitude just feeds the fire of cable news and talk radio.

You know, there are some intellectuals who still think humanity is on a positive moral trajectory overall. Heck, look how relatively peaceful the last 30 years have been. And before you misanthrope's mention Sudan and the Congo and Palestine, think about the 27 million+ Russians who died in WWII. That kind of destruction is unfathomably to most of us.

misantropes, unfathomable. J/C!

144 and 148: I am torn on this. I spent a great deal of my life living in poorer countries and I do care a lot about humanity and hope we can "solve" the problems we have caused to the environment so that the rest of us can lead healthier, happier lives. However I also think that IF we went extinct it would probably serve the rest of the world's flora and fauna better than us remaining. This is not the same as saying I want to bring it about.

Body lice might not thrive so well in a human free world. I just don't understand thinking about a world without humans. It seems awfully narcissistic to me. In fact the earth, as used in the anthropomorphic meaning of many environmentalists, may "need" humans as much as we need it.

162: Interesting, you think humans wondering if the world would be better off without us is narcissistic? I could easily argue the opposite (assuming we are actually beneficial to the rest of creatures on the world could be said to be narcissistic as well).

The book referenced by 148, and many others, would put the human race in greater perspective. The human race has singlehandedly been responsible for a huge number of extinctions. Perhaps some critters have evolved to have parasitic or symbiotic relationships with us (e.g., body lice) but they can live on other mammals as well. I just don't see how we are either necessary to the vast majority of other critters or how we can honestly see ourselves as not detrimental to them.

I am not talking about the "earth" i.e., the rock. I am talking about other life on it.

Anyhow, I realize my view is weird and uncomfortable and we can just agree to disagree.

Weird and uncomfortable (even unpopular) views are okay here, m'dear.

Let he who is without sin, grab a handful of rocks and chuck away.

I'm waiting...but I still don't hear a clatter of stones outside my window.

You keep talking, Anna, we'll keep listening, kid...

>162 - I doubt that Earth (as used in the same way as you've stated) needs THIS many humans. It's like what happens in places where we've driven out natural predators - the grazers go graze-happy, reproduce beyond what they should, messing up the environment. We're responsible for that, but more importantly we're very similar to the grazers.

I'd articulate this better, but I'm tired, so apologies. :-)

Message edited by its author, Sep 22, 2009, 12:24am.

Started reading Legion by Dan Abnett -- another installment in the Horus Heresy series.

Finished Where the Wild Things Were -- excellent, highly recommended.

Finished You Bright and Risen Angels by Vollmann. The usual epic style and a darkly comic look at man's inhumanity to man and insect. After this and Rising Up and Rising Down, it's time for a little Vollmann hiatus.

The Poor Mouth, Flann O'Brien. Hilarious.

Welcome to the Monkey House, Vonnegut. He works well in small doses, too - Harrison Bergeron being the standout so far.

Fortress of Solitude by Jonathan Lethem. I've heard a couple of "he's trying too hard" criticisms of this book, but overall I like it - a pretty solid coming-of-age story in 70s Brooklyn.

Both are solid writers/books. Fun reads for smart people...

167: ajsomerset, how did you end up choosing that O'Brien novel?

165: irieisa wrote: I doubt that earth ... needs THIS many humans.

And what would be the right amount?

>170 - Never researched the subject, so I can't give a nice, neat number. Knowing it wouldn't do any good, anyway. Rather, it wouldn't make a difference one way or the other, unless someone with certain priorities and resources got hold of the information.

As for what I'm reading, aside from my dinky mass market paperback of Les Miserables, I've started Of Mice and Men - assigned reading for school. At least it's not an awful book, though not quite my cup of tea.

Message edited by its author, Sep 22, 2009, 12:27am.

...I can't give a nice, neat number.

That's okay.

What dont you like about Of Mice and Men?

170: The answer is simple: I have the Everyman's Library Complete Novels of Flann O'Brien, and as I worked my systematic way from page one to page last, it happened to be next. ;)

I think The Poor Mouth should be translated into French, for sale in Quebec.

Finished In the country of last things early this morning. It is a surprisingly hopeful book set in an urban hell, as it traces Anna Blume's journey through an anarchic, decaying blighted city and she journeys from despair to a kind of will to live and to love. The book reads to me as if it was written AS a translation into English from some European language - NOTHING besides word choice and sentence structure implies this - but the other Auster I've read, while equally austere, lacks the "formality?" of "last things." I know people here have read a lot more Auster than I and would be curious about my reaction.

Auster is "austere"--was that deliberate, Bob?

Loved that book (IN THE COUNTRY OF LAST THINGS), it's one of my favorite of Auster's efforts. And his family memoir, THE INVENTION OF SOLITUDE is another good one. The only effort of his I've actually disliked is TRAVELS IN THE SCRIPTORIUM, which I thought self-indulgent and boring as hell. I think he has that feeling of being translated because of the precision of his word choices--he's a translator (or was) of folks like Joseph Joubert and, I think, takes great pains to present just the right word or inflection.

If you like Auster, check out the work of Nicholas Christopher--VERONICA especially, which is sort of a weird hybrid of Auster and Jonathan Carroll...

"austere" wasn't initially deliberate, but after i noticed i'd written that, i happily left it unchanged.

Started Robert Stone's hall of mirrors - so far a pretty wacky and weird NOrleans novel. So far, so good.

Last night I started Elias Canetti's The Conscience of Words, which is fantastic.

Has anyone read Schutt's All Souls? I've been trying to get through the recent Pulitzer winners and finalists, but have been disappointed lately. I really didn't enjoy Olive Kitteridge until the last 30 pages or so. Thoughts?

Bob: I love Stone but that's one of his first, innit? I recall not liking it nearly as much as DOG SOLDIERS and, especially, OUTERBRIDGE REACH, one of the most depressing novels I've ever read...

I think it might be Stone's first. At any rate it was written in the mid 60s. So he had a decade's more experience before dog soldiers which i need to reread - as it's been decades since i've read it.

I just finished Middlesex. I resisted this for a while, mostly because of the title, but it was a great read. I'm still working on Swann's Way, but also beginning The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I think - I may change my mind. I have no particular direction I'm planning. I do think I need to start on some of these new books that I just had to have in hardback as soon as they came out, and have been sitting around for months. I'm such a flake sometimes.

Message edited by its author, Sep 23, 2009, 9:22pm.

Middlesex's a good read. Everyone and their mother around me has been reading it recently, so I might have to pull it out for a reread soon. Once I make my way through the stacks and shelves of books I own and haven't read...

I felt the same way. I was listening to the audiobook version of Everything is Illuminated and nearly drove off the road laughing early on in the narrative. Then I couldn't bring myself to finish listening to or reading it. The print version is on a nearby shelf, inducing a certain degree of guilt...but I am capable of leaving books unfinished.

Message edited by its author, Sep 23, 2009, 10:43pm.

I liked the first half of EVERYTHING IS ILLUMINATED and then there's an abrupt shift in tone and direction that, aesthetically speaking, works against the book...

actually hall of mirrors looks to be Stone's second. What is most noticeable is the influence the book surely had on HSThompson's "fear and loathing" era...ie, from a radio rant on WUSA:"The omnipresent sprectre of an inexorably devouring, insatiably consuming hydra like federal government the twin pterodactyls of atheistic communism and communistic atheism spread the winged shadow of Beelzebub...." - and the drug infused descriptions of NOrleans life.

Message edited by its author, Sep 23, 2009, 10:58pm.

Early Stone. But he got better and better and BETTER.

Sonofabitch is a genius...

>172 - Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you on Of Mice and Men.

There isn't anything I really dislike about Of Mice and Men, actually. It isn't my favourite kind of reading, but if you asked me to pinpoint something I actively dislike, I'd have to think for a long time. I'm rather happy about how easy it is reading Steinbeck, by the way. I finished it today in school, even though we're supposed to be reading the second out of six sections tonight. I've always read ahead - and never while outside of school.

Once I'm done with my Warhammer 40K candy, I'm going to hack into Brideshead Revisited by Waugh. See how it stacks up against Decline and Fall and A Handful of Dust

Love, love, love Brideshead Revisited. It is different from his other more satiric works, but there's still plenty of humor and a really unforgettable set of characters.

Agreed, BRIDESHEAD is brilliant all the way through, whereas as much as I liked the first 1/3 of DECLINE AND FALL, it isn't in the same ball park.

Irieisa, m'dear, I wonder if your feelings toward OF MICE AND MEN could be colored by your taking it as a school assignment. I remember how much MACBETH and HAMLET sucked when I took them in school but when I discovered them later, saw some of the brilliant film adaptations of Shakespeare, read the plays in earnest, I became a Shakespeare fan.

191: I've read a fair share of reviews for Brideshead, so I'm curious what the actual book is like. Decline and Fall was Waugh's first published novel and it is light and juvenile with some sharp barbs about secularism and modernism. I've also heard some call "Brideshead" schmaltz, at least well-written schmaltz. I guess the different ballpark would be the degree of self-seriousness the novel is freighted with and Waugh's internal conflagration of Tory Catholicism with his own homosexuality. And given the way he treated his wife and his kids, he's up there with Ferdinand Celine for literary geniuses/human scum. Then again, Dan Brown and James Patterson seem like nice enough people, too bad they can't write to save their gold-plated lives. Pity.

Nearing the end of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Shirer. Just finished the section on "The New Order", tallying Nazi crimes and atrocities. Far darker and more evil than anything concocted by Sade or Burroughs But the lack of open Soviet archives during the writing of the book leave a prominent absence.

And I'm reading about "Money" in Das Kapital

I picked up Auschwitz Report as documentary evidence alongside Fatelessness.

>191 - No, no, I realise when my opinion is being influenced. For example, I know I honestly liked Charlotte's Web when it was assigned years ago, but something in me resisted that opinion, so I admitted nothing of my fondness for the book. I recall crying a little bit when I read that one, stretched out on the floor...

My feelings, of lack thereof, for Of Mice and Men are as genuine as they're liable to get. I've found books with a southern feel don't go down quite as well with me as others tend to. Our Lit teacher said we'll be reading To Kill a Mockingbird next, I believe. I think I'll feel similarly for that one.

#194: I've found books with a southern feel don't go down quite as well with me as others tend to. Our Lit teacher said we'll be reading To Kill a Mockingbird next, I believe. I think I'll feel similarly for that one.

I felt (and still feel) the same way about books with a "southern feel," but I found To Kill a Mockingbird to be an exception when I was in high school. I loved it. I've not reread it since then, so I don't know if it'd hold up for me now.

My review of Where the Wild Things Were:

http://blogcritics.org/books/article/boo...

From your review: "Preservation of endangered species versus maintenance of the bottom line become the new battleground."

And knowing humanity, I'm not laying big odds on Mother Nature.

Sounds like a good book--added to my list.

Just started both The Caveman's Valentine by George Dawes Green and My Name Is Will: A Novel of Sex, Drugs, and Shakespeare by Jess Winfield.

Finished Legion by Dan Abnett, which was fun. Much better written than The Lost Symbol, then again, I know cats that could out-write Mr. Brown.

Started Brideshead Revisited by Waugh, which, as the kids say, "is the shit."

Every once in awhile I pick up a fat, juicy non-fiction book to skim over breakfast and this month I grabbed THE STORY OF CIVILIZATION, VOLUME III (CAESAR AND CHRIST)...only this time I got hooked. I know Durant wrote this back in the 40's but it still seems smart, contemporary, incisive, droll and utterly brilliant.

Currently reading Shifts by Adam Thorpe, and The Lordly Ones by Keith Roberts.

I picked up The Glorious Cause again, and it's not very good. It doesn't cite primary sources! It isn't well written! It makes ridiculous arguments about religion and the personality/psychology of various leaders but never presents evidence!

202: Did you like it better the first time you read it? I would like to re-read some books to see what I think, but I didn't read history books much as a youth. I am interested in how people become more discerning readers with age and experience...

On the verge of finishing The Fortress of Solitude, starting An Artist of the Floating World.

203> I should have been more clear. I'm not rereading it, just opening it up again after putting it down for a while.

#194 and #195: I am a fan of Southern Lit (the good stuff anyway). If you ever want to try again, try Other Voices, Other Rooms by Truman Capote. It is not long, very southern, and not quite as challenging as Faulkner. I'm from the south, sort of, and Other Voices is authentic.

I'm with you on the racial tension brand of southern lit though. There are just too many of them and they get tiresome and start to all seem the same. To Kill a Mockingbird is an exception though-- it is brilliant.

Another interesting Southern novel that gets little play is The Voice at the Back Door by Elizabeth Spencer.

I will probably finish Rise and Fall of the Third Reich tonight. A review will follow in the near future. Then it's on to Judgment at Nuremburg by Robert Conot Should be an interesting back-to-back reading.

#206: I'm originally from the south, too, which is probably why I can't stand Southern Lit. ;) We'll see whether my aversion increases or decreases as time goes by...

I'm still working away at Les Miserables of course, but I'm also getting Halloween season started early with The Ghost Stories of Edith Wharton. I'm 2/3 of the way through the volume. They're of a Jamesian psychological ghost story type, and some of the best ghost stories I've ever read. (Admittedly not a lot, though I've done a couple of anthologies and most of M.R. James' stories, the latter of which began to seem boring and formulaic to me once I'd read several.)

Finished Shifts by Adam Thorpe. Not bad. Stand-out was the title story, about a Ghanaian immigrant in London in 1966. 'Sawmill', set in an invented (I think) African country was also quite good.

Then read The Lordly Ones, a collection of short stories by Keith Roberts. Not as good as his The Grain Kings.

Now reading Transition, the new Iain Banks novel. 50-odd pages in and it's not looking to be one of his best...

#209 , I didn't know that Wharton had a collection of ghost stories ! Thanks for the tip !

#211: You betcha!

Anybody else here read literary ghost stories? The weather's getting dark and chilly around here, and I'm jonesing. Anybody want to pass judgment on Elizabeth Gaskell, Sheridan Le Fanu, Ambrose Bierce...?

Just picked up Algernon Blackwood's COMPLETE JOHN SILENCE STORIES at a library booksale--he might apply. A lot of the Victorian spook-meisters are a trifle slow-moving for me. M.R. James can provoke comas with some of his stuff. To me, spooky and suspenseful means guys like Richard Matheson and Charles Beaumont, and then toss in Roald Dahl's TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED, a few of Jerome Bixby's finest short efforts...

For me, the dreary days of fall inspire me more toward spy and espionage novels--Le Carre is fun to read as the leaves are turning golden and brown. Divided loyalties, betrayals, treason both high and low...

Message edited by its author, Oct 1, 2009, 3:40pm.

Hey y'all, September's history!