A big one, this, I know! I've raised it because an acquaintance of mine who teaches English Literature in a pretty good secondary school/high school let drop in conversation that a book would not be appreciated by her teenage students because the 19-year-old heroine was "too old". She added that the 40-yr-old character was off the chart, and the only character they might be interested in - because he was 16 - had too small a role.

This astounded me and I was left wondering where to find words to refute this! When I was still at school loads of my favourite books had no children in them at all: The Flight of the Heron, I Capture the Castle, Catch 22, anything by Rosemary Sutcliffe, the Ursula le Guin 'Earthsea' books, and the classics - Jane Austen, the Brontes...

I have spoken to a few other people about this and the response seems to be (in the UK at any rate) that YA is used for books written for readers as young as 11 yrs but with themes such as drug-taking, divorced parents, unwanted pregnancy and disability. This seems to me to be hi-jacking the label. What do other people think?

The YA sections of bookshops in the UK seem to be dominated by black, silver or pink spines, and by series set in schools and with a very large proportion of supernatural themes. If teenagers are really "not interested" in characters older than themselves, is this because of the books being presented to them? Once again, what do other people think?

Sorry this is a long post. And by the way, I'm just past 50 yrs old and have two sons in their early twenties, one of whom doesn't read fiction at all and one of whom consumes fat fantasy trilogies - and has done since about the age of 14, despite the trilogies featuring adult protagonists!
Any takers?

Message edited by its author, Oct 17, 2009, 4:14am.

While the teen readers I know enjoy books with teen characters, I would never make such a hard-and-fast rule. Your friend's assertion simply isn't true.

YA readers in my experience want stories with themes they can identify with. They want characters who doubt, who struggle, who wonder, who triumph. Some like magic, some don't. Some like suspense, some don't. Most like humor, hope, and action.

There's a difference between Young Adult Fiction and books that teens read and enjoy. The American Library Association defines teens ages 12-18 as Young Adults. YA fiction is written specifically for this age group.

There are many books that were written for adults that teens enjoy, but that doesn't make them YA books. I read romance novels from the time I was 15, but they certainly weren't YA novels.

I'm curious, what book does your friend think teens wouldn't like? If the 19-year-old really is the protagonist, they might enjoy it. Like MerryMary says, it depends on the theme.

From the summer reading lists I see, most teachers seem to choose adult books that they think teens should read. It's like the teachers don't read YA books and have no idea that some of it is good quality literature.

Thanks, MerryMary and BookLizard, for responding so quickly. Food for thought. I'm interested to hear that the American Library Association defines YA as aged 12-18; I don't think there is a British definition so clear... or is there? I might well be wrong!

I think what took me aback was that my acquaintance is a teacher of English, and yet clearly held the opinion that secondary school students, right up to leaving age (17 or 18), would still not be interested unless the characters were their own age or younger. I know I preferred the PoV characters to be older than me. (Did anyone else feel that the perfect age of maturity was his/her own age plus one year? When I was ten I was sure I'd be grown up at eleven; when eleven, twelve, and so on. I'm still waiting.) It's almost the opposite of what BookLizard suggests about summer reading lists.

The particular book in question was my own in draft form, and I had asked her to read it because of her professional standpoint. I don't wish to overstep here, so shan't give the title.

By the way, my two sons were both firmly in the maths-and-science field and gave up English before the sixth form, so I have no personal experience of current Eng Lit teaching at A-level.

I think the "rules" are different for realistic fiction versus fantasy. For realistic fiction, I think they usually like their own age or slightly older - middle schoolers will read about high school, but not college, and high schoolers will read about college. Bildungsromans and coming-of-age novels are popular for all ages. For fantasy, the age of the protagonist doesn't usually matter.

I didn't say that the teens actually LIKED the adult books the teachers chose for summer reading. LOL. I think the teachers just don't want to read YA literature themselves.

As for your book, you say that one of the characters is a 40-year-old, but you don't say what that character's relationship is to the 19-year-old. In recent YA novels, parents are usually secondary characters, so if the book is about a 19-year-old and her parent, teens probably wouldn't be interested. If the 40-year-old is a love interest, the school probably wouldn't want to touch it -- or the kids either.

#4 -- I was the same way, always wanting the main character to be a year (or a few years) older than myself. I also find that the "young adult" section of my library (I'm a youth services librarian in a public library, so deal with kids from 0-18) is used mostly by "tweens" and young teens (11-15, or thereabouts). I think this is pretty typical, despite the more mature content in a lot of teen books. Recently, more books are written for that older teen segment (John Green's books, for instance, usually feature characters of early college age), but I'm not sure if use is following the trend.

As for your original question of how to define YA fiction, I usually look at how it's marketed (it is an imprint that usually publishes for teens, like HarperTeen? What age range does the publisher recommend it for?) and how it's reviewed (most reviews of children's and young adult books include an age or grade range). I do think that there are a lot of adult books that appeal to teens. I don't think I read much young adult lit as a teen -- I devoured mysteries, and was particularly fond of detectives Hercule Poirot, Jim Qwilleran, and Lord Peter Wimsey. I also went through a highly pretentious phase, in which I read mostly classics for a few years. I rediscovered YA lit some time in my early 20's, I think.

There are a lot of blurry lines in publishing. I know I've read interviews with several authors who wrote their first novel and were surprised when their agent or publisher told them that they were going to market it as YA. The age of the main character has something to do with it, I'm sure, but as MerryMary mentioned, it's usually more about the themes. I've also read two books recently that are usually classified/marketed as adult, but which have children as the POV character (The Book of Lost Things and The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie). It's a tricky question, to be sure! Not having read your book, I don't know whether it would appeal to teens or not -- in all likelihood, it would appeal to some more than others, just as it would appeal to some adults more than others.

I'm sure the point about marketing is spot on, foggidawn. It's a kind of shorthand, I suppose - once everyone understands what "Young Adult" stands for in the publishing world, it helps clarify things rather than muddy it all up. Like "adult" magazines, kind of. I had been thinking of it too literally - "adults who are still young", perhaps 18-25 yrs, rather than as "adult" material presented for young people, ie children. (Sorry - all that was too wordy but I like to be clear!)

Regarding BookLizard's question about the relationships in my book, I need advice from you all. I am aware this forum is not the place for self-promotion, so I'm reluctant to talk about my own book. (I've emailed requesting LibraryThing Author status.) However, to set everyone's mind at rest and persuade you that I am not a dodgy sort of girl, the 40-yr-old guy is not a contender. Not a parent, but no romance either. The setting is London and now, but the plot is driven by a fantasy element, which takes care of the chap (although I admit I fancy him).

If this is too much like promotion, please let me know - I truly don't want to step on toes.

Firstly, good luck with your book - you are obviously going to quite a bit of trouble to stick within the LT rules and that's pretty refreshing.

I don't pretend to be an expert on YA books. I'm a 50-something who reads fiction for ALL ages. I would guess, though, that what publishers aim at young adults and what those young adults themselves choose to read may well be two completely different things. When I was in my teens I read a lot of historical fiction (so you could say that most of the characters were at least 400 years older than me. IMO good books will always be enjoyed by readers of all ages. The YA label is more about marketing than reading.

I write for Young Adults. When I'm working on a book I have a "review panel" of teenagers from the age of 10 thru to 25 years old. Their comments and views are raised in discussion.
I get the feeling that above the age of 12 (younger for advanced readers) their expectations of books start to change. Where before fairy magic would have been interesting to the Young Adults they are getting more interested in fantasy.
Most of the readers in the review panel were pretty good at latching onto the plots in the story lines, even at 10 y/o they would cast views on the characters in the book.
If you use too many complex words outside of the life experience of the younger children/adults they will lose interest. Similarly subject matter such as Politics which they might see as grown up can lose their attention. I did note that older teens were less interested in younger heroes.
In essence it is daft to try to categorise young people purely by their age. Their life experience, reading ability, Boy friend/Girl Friend status all seem to affect what they want to read, but there again the same applies to adults.

I agree with most of the comments here. Additionally, in my opinion, there is good reason for the division between "Key Stage 3" (age 11-14) and "Key Stage 4" (age 14-16) in UK education and this is reflected in the differing reading material favoured by those age groups. In my experience, UK high school students (in Suffolk) develop a stronger taste for angst in KS4. Also, I noticed that our young readers favoured protagonists about one year older than them or in adulthood.

I write for Young Adults. When I'm working on a book I have a "review panel" of teenagers from the age of 10 thru to 25 years old.

I wouldn't consider a 25-year-old a teenager. Do you consider people in their 20s part of your intended audience?

If you use too many complex words outside of the life experience of the younger children/adults they will lose interest. Similarly subject matter such as Politics which they might see as grown up can lose their attention.

I have to say I find this pretty offensive. Younger adults will lose interest if there are too many complex words or grown-up issues like politics?

>>Msg 11 re comments on Msg 9
With the review panel I was merely reflecting what happened in real life. In the advert for the panel the wording was specifically for "teens" to take part in the exercise. Some of those who applied were above and below the age range. Those who applied were subject to an additional questionnaire. My view was that it would be interesting to measure the opinions of those outside of the target age range.

On the complex words issue I again reflect what happened during the Review Panel exercise. The problem of the narrative being too complex or "boring grown up stuff" was raised quite vociferously during voice conferences by the Panel Members. I regret that you find their views offensive. This issue was remedied by redrafting the text. The same story can often be retold in different forms of words.

11> "Never use a long word when a diminutive one will do."

I can see why you might be offended, but I think the key phrase is "outside of the life experience of the younger children/adults." I'm an adult and I don't like it when an author uses too many unfamiliar words. I read fiction for the story. If I want to read something where the author shows off his extensive vocabulary, I'll read poetry.

And Politics with a capital P is different from politics. Any YA novel that deals with high school and cliques and popularity deals with politics, but I can't imagine too many 12-14 year-olds would want to read a novel about lobbyists or congressional aides or mortgage brokers or any other "boring grown up stuff" that's outside their life experience.

9> Could you clarify what you mean by "fairy magic" versus "fantasy." Do you mean that they're less accepting of a deus ex machina kind of magic?

>12 Thanks for explaining further.

"Never use a long word when a diminutive one will do."

I definitely agree with your point here, but I don't think this applies especially to 25-year-old YA readers.

I'm not convinced that Politics with a capital P was intended to meaning something different than politics. What's the distinction between a Boy friend and a Girl Friend (beyond the obvious one of gender)?

I'm also curious about "fairy magic" vs. "fantasy".

I can see the reasoning, but it feels wrong to say that books need to be dumbed down to appeal to teenagers. I like to think that teens are bright enough to deal with any topic.

But - the fact may be that they are bright enough, but just not interested enough.

I see this thread has come alive again!

I suppose it comes down to the old, old truth that it's fruitless to generalise. There are "young adults" of twelve with a reading age - appetite and maturity - much older, and others of twenty with a reading age rather younger. Add to that the fact that most of us (I think - me, at any rate!) like sometimes to be stretched and sometimes to romp along with something easy, and the range of literature for any age group is going to be huge. Or ought to be.

With regard to my own book, I've come to the conclusion based on feedback that it is no more suited to the "Young Adult" slot than to general adult fiction, which is fine by me!

15> If you think avoiding complex language and "grown up" subjects is dumbing something down, then I can see why someone might be offended or think it's wrong. But using simple, straightforward language isn't the same as dumbing down. Look at Ernest Hemingway. And why would teenagers who can't even vote be interested in Politics when so many adults aren't? There's a difference between mature subjects or themes such as rape, domestic violence, drug abuse, serious illness, death, etc. and grown up subjects. Teenagers aren't going to be interested in reading about a 40-something-year-old mother of 2 who is getting a divorce and can't pay the mortgage, but they might be interested in reading about the teenager whose parents are getting a divorce. It's the whole life experience thing.

14> Not sure about Boy friend / Girl Friend unless it's a typo -- like it was originally Boy/Girl Friend and then the writer added the other "friend" to clarify because it should really be boyfriend/girlfriend.

I'm with you that a 25-year-old is not a teenager. I'm guessing someone that age who would respond to such an ad must like YA literature. And an author who uses a review panel when writing probably wants to appeal to as large an audience as possible. Nothing wrong with that. Give the people what they want. I'd rather see a teen reading a book that doesn't use complex words than watching TV all day.

If you think avoiding complex language and "grown up" subjects is dumbing something down, then I can see why someone might be offended or think it's wrong. But using simple, straightforward language isn't the same as dumbing down.

I think there's a difference between using simple, straightforward language because that's what's best for the story, and deliberately simplifying the story in an attempt to appeal more to a specific audience. How would you define dumbing down?

There's a difference between mature subjects or themes such as rape, domestic violence, drug abuse, serious illness, death, etc. and grown up subjects.

Honestly, when I was a teenager the last thing I wanted to read about was typical "teen problems" like the ones you mentioned.

And why would teenagers who can't even vote be interested in Politics when so many adults aren't?

I'm interested in the politics of other countries, even though I can't vote there. I'm also interested in history, even though I can't do anything to change it.

Even when I can't vote, politics has relevance to my life. Rape has never had any impact on my life, and I hope it will remain that way. I'd imagine that this is the same for most teens.

In regards to the issue of politics in a YA book, I think the important thing is to tie it in to life experience. Some teens are very much interested in politics. I think that a book about, for instance, a teen volunteering at some politician's campaign headquarters could be great, and would interest a lot of teens if it was well-written and had interesting, believable characters. And I can think of lots of YA books -- everything from Nothing But the Truth to The Princess Diaries -- that have political themes.

Awarding-winning Hope Was Here by Joan Bauer is a great YA book featuring small town political themes.

Who gave the "Award" to Hope was Here? Was it a Young Adult panel of judges?

Message edited by its author, Nov 12, 2009, 12:55pm.

The Newberry panel and the American Library Association, for starters. Looks like a whole heap of other folks, too: http://www.librarything.com/work/106939/...

Here's one description that may be relevant - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_adult...