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1timspalding
Edited: Nov 15, 2009, 9:09pm Top

2lilithcat
Nov 15, 2009, 6:03pm Top

Ack! I don't know how this happened, but I accidentally linked Wizard Books in the U.K. with Bookworks in Chicago, and can't figure out how to unlink them.

3timspalding
Nov 15, 2009, 6:07pm Top

We'll get it. Drop the venue if you have it handy.

4SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2009, 6:34pm Top

Tim, some of the "bookstores" have an address, but they seem to be dealers that sell books "by appointment only". Should I link those with an address or make them "not a bookstore" and unlinkable?

5ianreads
Nov 15, 2009, 6:38pm Top

Typo: 'We build this primarily (...)'

6lilithcat
Nov 15, 2009, 6:43pm Top

> 3

The Bookworks link is http://www.librarything.com/venue/2192/Bookworks There's no LT local for Wizard Books, but this is their ABE page: http://www.abebooks.com/wizard-books-peterborough/131309/sf

(P.S. Shouldn't helpers get credit, not just for linking, but for marking on-line only stores as "Unlinkable"? I'd think that's just as valuable.)

7lilithcat
Nov 15, 2009, 6:44pm Top

> 4

I'm not Tim, but if you can make an appointment and go buy the book at the physical location, then I'd link it.

8TheoClarke
Nov 15, 2009, 6:46pm Top

>4 SqueakyChu: I have been linking stores that are "appointment only". I see it simply as a form of restricted opening hours.

9SylviaC
Nov 15, 2009, 6:56pm Top

What should we do if we find a physical store that is marked "Not a physical store?"

for example: Dust Jacket Books in Halifax N.S. (LT venue #24610)

10TheoClarke
Nov 15, 2009, 6:57pm Top

>6 lilithcat: I think that Wizard Books on ABE is Jim Blessett, who has traded from Deeping St James as Wizard Books, St Pauls Bookshop and Bridge Bookshop.

11SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2009, 7:02pm Top

--> 7

I'm not so sure about that. It's really a gray area because some dealers have their inventories in their homes. Many of the addresses look suspiciously like personal home addresses, and I'm leery of adding them as "stores".

12SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2009, 7:03pm Top

--> 8

Okay. You and lilithcat win.

13TheoClarke
Nov 15, 2009, 7:15pm Top

>12 SqueakyChu: Yay! Victory! Err... what was the prize?

14SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2009, 7:17pm Top

If you come to my house, I just took a chocolate cake out of the oven. I'm working on this as I wait for the cake to cool. We can all eat the "prize" together.

15SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2009, 7:28pm Top

To others working on this...

Which link is giving you the most useful infomation as to whether the venue is real bookshop or not? Much information seems misleading to me. :(

16katieinseattle
Nov 15, 2009, 7:32pm Top

Man, I broke it already :( There are three branches of Twice Sold Tales in Seattle and I accidentally linked the Queen Anne one on AbeBooks to the Capitol Hill one on LT instead of the Queen Anne one.

17vaneska
Nov 15, 2009, 7:35pm Top

Tim - I've been working off a search result list for 'London' but I can't get beyond page 1 without it bouncing me back to the complete list of venues. The All link does the same.

v

18SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2009, 7:36pm Top

Bingo! I found one that's a real
store *and* even has a picture!!

19MsMixte
Nov 15, 2009, 7:36pm Top

>15 SqueakyChu:

Best clue seems to be whether or not store hours are listed. I'm going with a Google search for the physical presence.

20SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2009, 7:48pm Top

That's a good idea.

I'm getting depressed over this. So many of these venues were real bookstores "once".

21SylviaC
Nov 15, 2009, 7:53pm Top

How come the ones I mark as unlinkable don't stay marked? When I return to the page they are open again. Is this happening to anyone else?

22SqueakyChu
Nov 15, 2009, 8:04pm Top

Big problem!

It's not saving mine, either. :(

23MsMixte
Nov 15, 2009, 8:10pm Top

How about shops such as Hemingway's New & Used Books, 'located' in Sumas, Washington, but which in reality are physically located in British Columbia just a few miles away? The Sumas location is used to take advantage of US postal rates.

24justjim
Nov 15, 2009, 8:13pm Top

Bother! I had a computer crash during adding a venue so now there are two Andrew Isles Bookshops.

One is linked and can stay, the other (48871) should be deleted. Sorry 'bout that, Chief.

As an aside, my workflow has developed as:-
1. Click the LT Local link immediately below the name to see if it already exists.
1a. If it exists - grab the number and link it.
2. "Search Google" (then I edit the google uri to add '.au' because that's where I'm working)

The rest of the links haven't been helpful to me as yet.

25justjim
Nov 15, 2009, 8:18pm Top

Woah, Nellie! I just went back to work on some more and as in #21 & #22, the ones I've marked as 'Not a "real" store' are just sitting there like nothing's been done.

Which means that further down the list, I don't know if I'm wasting my time re-doing what someone else has done!

I'm going to stick to ones that show up already in LT Local until I hear back about this.

26eromsted
Edited: Nov 16, 2009, 3:08pm Top

Not sure what to do on this one.

Glen Echo Books has an address in Abe of Hillsborough, NJ. However their website says they are located in Princeton, NJ, with sister stores called Chicklet Books in Hillsborough and the Princeton Shopping Center.

The stores all have independent LT Local Pages already:
Chicklet-Books---Hillsborough
Chicklet-Books---Princeton
Glen-Echo-Books.

So what should be linked to the Abe record?

27timspalding
Nov 15, 2009, 8:22pm Top

On "real" and "unreal." Having a real address isn't enough, if it's just some guys home. You have to be somewhere you could visit and get it. The only real question is the "by appointment only" ones. I've seen "real" stores that, for whatever reason are run this way—for example, when their stock is so high-end that they don't want nobodies pawing through it. I'd favor including them, if they expressly mention they are open to people, but I'd also put it in the venue description. And, frankly, I wouldn't bend over backwards trying to research this stuff. Most of the time, if they aren't obviously a store, they aren't a store.

Fixes coming.

28MsMixte
Nov 15, 2009, 8:23pm Top

>25 justjim:

It's working for shops which do exist, it just isn't saving the information for shops which are online only.

Still, it's rather tedious to not be able to pare down the list.

29KingRat
Nov 15, 2009, 8:39pm Top

A lot of the ABE pages for these guys say right on them, "Internet only" which makes them really easy to mark as not a real store. So far that's the best way I've found to clear them.

Of course, that marking isn't "sticking" right now....

30timspalding
Nov 15, 2009, 8:42pm Top

Ack! I don't know how this happened, but I accidentally linked Wizard Books in the U.K. with Bookworks in Chicago, and can't figure out how to unlink them.

Fixed. I'm going to keep de-linking out of users' control, so some bookseller doesn't go un-link everyone around him. Booksellers are sharks! ;)

What should we do if we find a physical store that is marked "Not a physical store?"

for example: Dust Jacket Books in Halifax N.S. (LT venue #24610)


Yeah, someone must have screwed up on that. I changed it, and added more info to the venue, which sounds good.

Many of the addresses look suspiciously like personal home addresses, and I'm leery of adding them as "stores".

When we first tried doing this—Dan and I did quite a few first—we'd sometimes use Google Maps to show the street view. Time after time the addresses were some suburban home. This made us very suspicious of anything that wasn't obviously a store. I'd go with your gut on this, and not waste time trying to confirm that someone'd dealing from their garage...

There are three branches of Twice Sold Tales in Seattle and I accidentally linked the Queen Anne one on AbeBooks to the Capitol Hill one on LT instead of the Queen Anne one.

Fixed. Thanks.

I'm getting depressed over this. So many of these venues were real bookstores "once".

Yeah, I know. It's better in some ways than new bookstores. I mean, the ABA has gone from something like 3k to 700 in a few years. But Abe (and Alibris, Biblio, Amazon) have enabled used bookstores to hang on. As they hung on, though, they increasingly realized the walk-in traffic wasn't very significant, and cost them money. What we're doing—and the way it helps local book searching is, I think, a potential help for that situation...

Incidentally, Abebooks is to be congratulated for agreeing to let us do this. In some ways, it could be seen to undermine their online effort, but their CEO also saw it as a chance to help Abe affiliates. So, I'm bully on them.

How about shops such as Hemingway's New & Used Books, 'located' in Sumas, Washington, but which in reality are physically located in British Columbia just a few miles away? The Sumas location is used to take advantage of US postal rates.

Wow. That's an idea I never heard. You think he goes back and forth in the car with books?

One is linked and can stay, the other (48871) should be deleted. Sorry 'bout that, Chief.

I deleted it. You can delete, though. It's an option under "edit." Yeah, I know, a little counter-intuitive to delete through edit...

eromstead: Glen Echo Books

Damned if I know! Anyone in that part of NJ know them?

Of course, that marking isn't "sticking" right now....

Sorry. Mike's working to fix. I think it's being recorded—I see them in the db as marked—but not presented right.

31timspalding
Nov 15, 2009, 8:46pm Top

By the way—wow!

I am running the script that actually loads their inventory right now. It found 117 new ones. That's 117 out of 552 in about an hour.

I'm particularly in awe of you guys insofar as this is a seriously daunting task—so much harder and larger than the IndieBound thing. And I didn't think there'd be quite the passion for it. Wow, as I said.

32KingRat
Nov 15, 2009, 8:52pm Top

Hemingway books does drive them across to mail. I went ahead and linked them as the ABE inventory represents what they have.

33nperrin
Edited: Nov 15, 2009, 8:57pm Top

How about shops such as Hemingway's New & Used Books, 'located' in Sumas, Washington, but which in reality are physically located in British Columbia just a few miles away? The Sumas location is used to take advantage of US postal rates.

Well the point is to be able to search the story inventory, right? So I would say connect the Washington Abe presence with the BC LT Local presence. Right?

ETA: Beaten by 32.

35PortiaLong
Nov 15, 2009, 9:10pm Top

Echoing those above - "Not a real bookstore" designations are not sticking.

36staffordcastle
Nov 15, 2009, 9:25pm Top

In addition, the "who did what" counters don't react to setting "Not a real bookstore".

37staffordcastle
Nov 15, 2009, 9:28pm Top

Would you say it was reasonable to mark a bookseller whose address is a P.O. Box as "Not a real bookstore"?

38KingRat
Nov 15, 2009, 9:30pm Top

They might have a physical address for a real store, but use a PO Box for their ABE online business.

39Littlemissbashful
Nov 15, 2009, 9:31pm Top

Sorry if I'm being stupid but I can see used book stores near me come up on the abe or google search but I don't know how I'm supposed to link or create?

If anyone has a moment to humour me and let me know how (preferably without making me feel totally small!) and I'd love to help...

40ltmike
Nov 15, 2009, 9:38pm Top

Working through issues on the linking page

So far:

1) Now you can see linked/nixed counts next to your name.
2) If you use the search box the search value will stick as you link to other pages or sorts.

-Mike

41staffordcastle
Nov 15, 2009, 9:48pm Top

>38 KingRat: True, true; I'll leave them alone for the present. Further research required.

42ltmike
Nov 15, 2009, 9:55pm Top

Sorry, now when you mark something not a "real" store it should stick. -Mike

43ltmike
Nov 15, 2009, 9:57pm Top

I also made it so stores marked not "real" store can still be linked... so they can be corrected when necessary. -Mike

44SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 16, 2009, 8:12am Top

Venue # 35826, Bearly Used Books, Enfield, New Hampshire, is listed/linked as a real store but their website says they are now becoming online only. Please fix this as nothing happens when I click on the "edit" button. Thx!

ETA: I was corrected. This is a real bookstore. Apparently the one I found that was closing was in a different state - so please disregard this post.

45Littlemissbashful
Nov 15, 2009, 10:23pm Top

Okay so if it comes up on the abe listings and it already has a an allocated local venue ID you link it to the ID.

If it doesn't already have a local venue ID you create the venue THEN link the ID

If it isn't a physical shop you tag it.

Unfortunately I only figured that out after nothing appearing next the abe link so now I've created it three times (once without a name - didn't spot the edit button)

I can't see a delete option so if someone knows how (or can tell me)LibraryThing venues 48944 and 48945 need to come off.

I also noticed that Bookshop in Barnet is on twice, once as Ottakar's and once as Waterstone's (which supersedes it as Waterstone's bought Ottakar's)
so venue 34078 could come off too.

Thanks

46justjim
Nov 15, 2009, 10:42pm Top

Littlemissbashful, I see you figgered it out fine! As I found out today, there is a link to delete venues on the right-hand side of the page after you click the 'edit' button. I'd only delete venues that you just accidentally created though.

47solla
Nov 15, 2009, 10:49pm Top

So, I'm missing something. I put Powells (bookstore in Portland that sells used books) into the Search and nothing showed up. So, how do you add one? I didn't see a place.

48Littlemissbashful
Nov 15, 2009, 11:00pm Top

Thanks justjim!

49justjim
Nov 15, 2009, 11:10pm Top

>47 solla: Solla, 'Add a venue' is on the line directly under the tabs. 2nd last link between 'Helpers' and 'Add Event'

50lilithcat
Edited: Nov 15, 2009, 11:15pm Top

> 47

Do you mean this Powell's?

There are actually several branches listed: http://www.librarything.com/local_search.php?q=powell%27s&vsm=name&d=5&a...

51suitable1
Nov 15, 2009, 11:16pm Top

#47 - Does Powells sell through Abes?

52KingRat
Nov 15, 2009, 11:20pm Top

Powell's sells through ABE, IndieBound, their own web site and even Amazon.

53timspalding
Nov 15, 2009, 11:25pm Top

Don't link Powells! They're giving us data separately.

54timspalding
Nov 15, 2009, 11:31pm Top

Sorry. Fixed it. They're already integrated. A weird bug that creates!

55lilithcat
Nov 15, 2009, 11:39pm Top

> 53

I assume you mean the Oregon Powell's. I just linked the Chicago Powell's (57th st., the other two are either going or gone), despite the fact that it was "flagged: not a 'real' bookstore". Sure looked real to me when I drove by it today!

56timspalding
Nov 15, 2009, 11:39pm Top

Oh, sorry. That might have been me panicking! ;)

57KingRat
Nov 16, 2009, 1:57am Top

I did all the bookstores in Washington State (filtered on "WA, U.S.A."). There are 9 left or so that I wasn't sure about.

One is Pilchuck Books, which isn't in LT. There might be two locations and I'm not as familiar with Everett so I can't be sure if one or both are still there, nor which one (if either) needs to be connected. Neither location is in LT Local.

A couple of others appeared to be online arms of existing bookstores under other names, but I wasn't familiar with them so I didn't touch them.

58timspalding
Nov 16, 2009, 2:00am Top

You're awesome.

59KingRat
Nov 16, 2009, 2:17am Top

I MIGHT WANT TO BUY SOME BOOKS SO THIS WOULD BE REALLY COOL AND THOSE BOOKSTORES ARE CLOSE! SO IT SEEMED LIKE A GOOD IDEA TO DO THEM ALL!

Sorry for the shouting.

60rfb
Nov 16, 2009, 4:54am Top

One address I found is actually a university library - no idea what they're doing on Abebooks. It's the Helmut-Schmidt-Universität in Hamburg, Germany. Another one, Massmann Internationale Buchhandlung, states that they're specialised in serving large university libraries - probably not that interested in LT clients either. Hansebuch in Hamburg is a publisher. And Buchhandlung Laatzen has two shops, see here.

61timspalding
Nov 16, 2009, 4:57am Top

They've also got some wonderful test records. My favorite is "ZZ - Test Dev Yi (Charlie) abc Oracle Scratchpad"

62Sean191
Nov 16, 2009, 8:24am Top

I am probably answering my own question, but used bookstores should only deal in books? For instance, a secondhand store, or a salvation army that carries a couple hundred used books shouldn't be listed correct?

63elliepotten
Nov 16, 2009, 8:26am Top

Does this only work for American bookshops? My used bookstore is on Abe and on LibraryThing as a venue but I can't for the life of me work out how to link them. If anyone could point me in the right direction (or do it for me :-) the shop is Book End in Bakewell.

64Katya0133
Nov 16, 2009, 8:32am Top

Eeep!

I accidentally linked Last Century Books in Innerleithen, UK with Cedar Falls Public Library (LTID #9148) instead of #49148. Can someone fix it?

65Sean191
Nov 16, 2009, 8:43am Top

I also searched two bookstores and didn't have them come up right away, so added them - and now I see I duplicated someone else's work. Sorry! Carroll & Carroll in Stroudsburg, PA and Farley's books in New Hope PA.

The ones in Brooklyn and New Jersey I noticed had been listed already.

66lilithcat
Nov 16, 2009, 8:45am Top

> 63

It should work for non-American bookstores, as there are quite a few in the ABE list.

However, I don't find your shop in that list (http://www.librarything.com/help_abe.php?style=0&filter=book%20end&sort=...), so I wonder if it's a problem on their end?

67elliepotten
Nov 16, 2009, 9:05am Top

Thank lilithcat - I see HOW to link them now, but you're right, we haven't appeared on that list. Heaven knows why and no idea how to sort that out, maybe it's because our ABE seller account has only been active for about a week or two...

68Katya0133
Nov 16, 2009, 9:40am Top

When I went to search for the Librairie Reignier in Le Longeron, France, I found this page which says "Vente uniquement par correspondance" ("sales only by mail / correspondance"), so I marked them as "not a 'real' store." Was that right? (They are a "real" store, but you can't shop there in person . . .)

69Katya0133
Nov 16, 2009, 9:45am Top

>68 Katya0133:.

Ditto for "Planet'book, Usclas d'Hérault, 34, France"

70lampbane
Nov 16, 2009, 10:39am Top

Accidentally flagged Black Cat Books as not real, but it is:

http://www.librarything.com/venue/35584/Black-Cat-Bookshop

It's been linked, at least.

71lampbane
Nov 16, 2009, 11:26am Top

I seem to be seeing a lot of linked bookstores that don't have an actual street address, just a city and state. Should these be on Local?

72nperrin
Nov 16, 2009, 11:38am Top

55: I just linked the Chicago Powell's (57th st., the other two are either going or gone), despite the fact that it was "flagged: not a 'real' bookstore".

Wait, what?? I linked that one last night! Hmm...

73eromsted
Edited: Nov 16, 2009, 12:22pm Top

>71 lampbane:

I have found that most of the Abe listings are for internet only booksellers and that whether a street address is included is not a reliable indicator. For instance, the Montclair Book Center is a bricks and mortar bookstore, but in Abe it has no street address. And many addresses appear to be for the homes of the internet booksellers.

{edited because I didn't answer the question}

There is a check-box in the Local venue page to indicate an online only bookseller. I suppose you could add any of the Abe listed booksellers (real or online-only) under that option. However, Local pages for internet-only booksellers should not be linked to the Abe records for the current feature.

74annekaelber
Nov 16, 2009, 12:23pm Top

If this is the wrong topic to ask, please let me know where to post this one. I'm not a frequent user/reader of the forums. *blush*

What can "little ol' me" do to help get an absolutely fabulous (and favorite) bookstore on LT, when they don't scan into inventory the books they buy and offer for sale? I'm referring to Bookmans (bookmans.com), which has 6 locations in Arizona that I know of.

I know I'd be spending a lot more money with them if I knew books on my LT wishlist were available in their store(s)! Right now, it's a juggling act of trying to prioritize my LT wishlist, print it (in the best order for locating in-store) and then scanning the shelves -- often fruitlessly -- for the book(s) I want/need.

Anne.

75lampbane
Nov 16, 2009, 12:27pm Top

>73 eromsted:

That's generally what I was getting at--if these Abe entries are linked to "real" bookstores, the "real" bookstores in LibraryThing Local should have actual addresses, right?

I'm talking about the LibraryThing Local data itself--over the past day, a lot of bookstores are being entered on Local without street addresses. I wasn't sure if people are supposed to be doing that.

(I've only been entering things I can confirm there's a physical, *visitable*, location.)

76eromsted
Nov 16, 2009, 1:18pm Top

>75 lampbane:
If people are entering the online-only stores in Local as real stores and or linking them in the current feature that is a problem.

Also, the full addresses can often be found on other sites, for instance, www.biblio.com And then you can confirm that "store" really is an house in a suburban development (95% of the time).

I too am only entering new local records for actual retail stores. I'm not sure that I would want all these home businesses cluttering up Local, but the online-only check box seems to allow it. I suppose we'll have to wait for further advice from Tim.

77catarina1
Nov 16, 2009, 1:22pm Top

I can't figure out how to do this.

78SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2009, 2:01pm Top

--> 74

All of the 6 are already on LT Local at this link.

I suppose you could talk to the store manager(s) and ask that they make their inventory available to LT/Abebooks?

79SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2009, 2:04pm Top

--> 76

I agree that it takes time to investigate these stores. I think it is best not to add on-line stores to Local at this time.

I'd suggest that one be very sure that somewhere in the store's write-up you see that the store is an actual "brick and mortar" place before doing any linking to the new feature.

Tim?

80jlelliott
Nov 16, 2009, 2:53pm Top

I had no idea there were so many internet book sellers. Almost all the ones I've looked at so far had no indication that they were genuine stores.

81timspalding
Nov 16, 2009, 4:19pm Top

>80 jlelliott:

Yeah, it's quite a thing, isn't it.

To be clear, internet- or mail-only stores should never be added to LibraryThing Local.

82jjmcgaffey
Nov 16, 2009, 4:21pm Top

There's one in my town that I never heard of - I found it on the ABE list, then went and checked their website and couldn't tell whether they had any physical presence. I sent them an email asking if they were physical (no response yet); then I went to another bookstore website in my town and they listed it as a bookstore. So I think it may be, but I'm waiting for their response to my email. Worth checking, for me - it's another bookstore close to me!

83eromsted
Nov 16, 2009, 4:33pm Top

>81 timspalding:

Fine with me. But just to be clear, what is the purpose of the choice on the venue page between "Real Place" and "Online"?

Is this for websites that might host book related events?

84SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2009, 4:35pm Top

--> 81

What should we do when we find an internet-only store on LT Local? I found one, but marked it on the linkage as not a real store. Should I have deleted the venue as well?

85lampbane
Edited: Nov 16, 2009, 5:47pm Top

This is an example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.librarything.com/venue/49314/MICHAEL-GINSBERG-BOOKS

Their website says nothing about a physical store.

And this:

http://www.librarything.com/venue/49308/The-Book-Pile,-Inc.

(The picture on their site is of a booth at a sci-fi con. What do we do in those circumstances?)

A lot of these are popping up in the past two days.

EDIT: Just nuked both of these, but there are more.

86timspalding
Nov 16, 2009, 5:03pm Top

>83 eromsted: "Is this for websites that might host book related events?"

Exactly.

What should we do when we find an internet-only store on LT Local? I found one, but marked it on the linkage as not a real store. Should I have deleted the venue as well?

Yes. Kill 'em.

87merry10
Nov 16, 2009, 6:21pm Top

I have unfortunately added to the stock of duplicate venues. I have deleted some, and suggested combining others. Hopefully, I can relink the original venues to the abe stores later?

88SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2009, 7:13pm Top

Yes. Kill 'em.

Aye, aye, sir!

89rosalita
Nov 16, 2009, 8:20pm Top

I'm not sure what to do with the Nebraska Book Company, which has 2 ABE listings. In poking around their website, I see that their business is essentially owning and managing college campus bookstores all over the country. My inclination is to flag them as "not a physical bookstore" for the parent company; is that right?

90jlelliott
Nov 16, 2009, 8:37pm Top

So how do we feel about marking stores as "not a physical store" after a glance at the Abe profile and a quick google search reveal no signs of corporeality? Often there is no proof that it isn't a physical store exactly, but one would assume it would exist somewhere on google maps or such if it were?

91SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2009, 8:58pm Top

--> 90

See message 86 from Tim. I think the only exception would be a virtual bookshop that is sponsoring an event. Killing that store would delete the event, which we would not want to do.

92jlelliott
Nov 16, 2009, 9:01pm Top

-91 I was just curious because I have no absolute proof that they don't have a physical store, unlike the Abe profiles that just state that plainly (very much the minority).

Also, how do we feel about places that are open by appointment only? Some very high end antique stores do this, but it could also be some person's basement.

93SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2009, 9:15pm Top

--> 92

See Tim's message #27 above. He addresses this issue.

94jlelliott
Nov 16, 2009, 9:29pm Top

-93 Thank you, that is what I get for just skimming the thread. I'm not sure that it helps though, I understand what to do when we know that it is just some basement venue, I just am not super comfortable marking a store as non-physical if I don't absolutely know that for certain.

There is a much larger grey area in bookselling than I was previously aware.

95PortiaLong
Nov 16, 2009, 9:36pm Top

The Abebooks listing has Uncle Hugo's and Uncle Edgar's as one entry but they have been entered in LT as separate venues. The have a combined website:
http://www.unclehugo.com/prod/

- link the Abe list to one or the other? or create a new venue for both combined?

96eromsted
Nov 16, 2009, 9:43pm Top

>94 jlelliott:
While working on NJ I thought about it as follows:

Marking a "not a 'physical' store" is not a permanent assignment but a tool keep people from duplicating their labor. If you do a fairly thorough job of poking about google and google maps and don't find any evidence of a "bricks and mortar store" its unlikely that anyone else will do better. So make a record of that effort by clicking on "not a 'physical' store." A link can always be added later if someone with more knowledge comes along.

97timspalding
Nov 16, 2009, 9:57pm Top

I'm not sure what to do with the Nebraska Book Company, which has 2 ABE listings. In poking around their website, I see that their business is essentially owning and managing college campus bookstores all over the country. My inclination is to flag them as "not a physical bookstore" for the parent company; is that right?

Yeah. I think that a split collection is about as bad. You can't walk in and get it with any reliability. So it might be physical, but the physical is flitty.

So how do we feel about marking stores as "not a physical store" after a glance at the Abe profile and a quick google search reveal no signs of corporeality? Often there is no proof that it isn't a physical store exactly, but one would assume it would exist somewhere on google maps or such if it were?

Yes, that's basically what I did. The decision can be reversed anyway.

Uncle Hugo's and Uncle Edgar

Hmmmm! Well, I wouldn't sweat it either way--since they are next to each other. Don't link them both to the same venue ID, since then books would show up twice, and that would be odd. Choose one, or make a combined one.

So make a record of that effort by clicking on "not a 'physical' store." A link can always be added later if someone with more knowledge comes along.

Very well put, and thought.

98SqueakyChu
Nov 16, 2009, 10:04pm Top

--> 94

Based on what Tim says above, just follow your gut instinct. You're right that this is a gray area. No one should be upset with either choice you make. I think that my instinct tells me not to make it into a real bookstore, thinking that some poor guy will be looking all over for a non-existent (to some extent, anyway) bookstore. I'm still mulling it over, though. No decision for certain. I'll just do it on a case by case basis.

99jjmcgaffey
Nov 16, 2009, 11:15pm Top

I've linked to (and created venues to link to) several stores that were marked not a store, which I knew from personal experience existed. I have _not_ created a venue for a store that I'm not sure is real - I'll go physically check it out first. I've also linked to one store that's open by appointment only - I know it's a store, I drive past it all the time, so I just put in its description that it's open by appointment only (or by chance, as its website says - if you happen to be passing when someone has an appointment!). I suspect that this will be a very long job, just because a lot of stores will need to be checked physically.

BTW, Tim, it might be helpful to have a link to 'not a store' venues as well - for finding and checking them later. Though they come up under unlinked, don't they? In which case, never mind.

And one more thing - this is great, I've found two bookstores I didn't know existed in my town (which isn't all that large)! I'm not sure either of them is physical, but I'll be checking them out and yay if they are.

100rosalita
Nov 16, 2009, 11:26pm Top

I've also just picked up the phone and called a few that I wasn't sure about -- they had street addresses, but were in neighborhoods that weren't obviously commercial or residential. If someone answered, I just asked them what their hours are. Others I got an answering machine, and if the message sounded personal rather than business, I marked them 'not a store'.

101lilithcat
Nov 16, 2009, 11:56pm Top

> 100

Others I got an answering machine, and if the message sounded personal rather than business, I marked them 'not a store'.

I would not do that. I would leave a message and ask for a return call to verify that. There are dealers who operate from their homes who do have hours, by appointment, and I see no reason that they should not be included in these listings.

I'm concerned that we may be losing sight of what I take to be the point of these linkages; that is, to find a store that has the book you're looking for, not to find stores where you can go and browse. If the bookseller has a physical location where you can go to get the book, why should it matter that you have to pick up the phone (or email) to make an appointment?

102timspalding
Nov 17, 2009, 12:48am Top

I've also just picked up the phone and called a few that I wasn't sure about

You're hard core. I did it too ;)

why should it matter that you have to pick up the phone (or email) to make an appointment?

Well, I mean, it's something of a pain. It's a matter of degree, isn't it. If a place was physical, but you could only see it, or get a book from it on alternate Thursdays, that would be worse than ordering from Amazon, I think...

103lampbane
Nov 17, 2009, 12:52am Top

I've crossed the streams:

This:
http://www.librarything.com/venue/49211/

and

http://www.librarything.com/venue/49213/

got linked to the wrong Abe stores; it should be the other way around (there are only two Heart Foundation stores in Abe).

(For some reason the same store got entered twice, and then when I tried to fix it... this is confusing.)

104icedream
Nov 17, 2009, 1:14am Top

I have run across a few physical stores that I needed to add a venue. My question is when I create the venue and the web site for the store includes a photo of the bookstore, am I able to link the photo under the copyright rules "The image has been specifically released for general promotional use"?

105jjmcgaffey
Nov 17, 2009, 3:34am Top

104> I wouldn't think so - it's been put on the store's own website, that's not general release. I emailed one store about using their picture and got a "Yes, of course, please put it up!", which is what you'll probably get if you ask. But I wouldn't just grab it and put it on another site without specific permission.

106justjim
Nov 17, 2009, 3:35am Top

Hee hee. I just did an internet store, Christian Books Australia. Checking the 'Contact Us' page for information, I noticed that the captcha image word was 'hades'! I did click on the reset a few times to see if they had set up a special dictionary, but the next 3 or 4 seemed just random.

Just a passing giggle. Going back to work now, Boss!

107KingRat
Nov 17, 2009, 4:11am Top

>104 icedream: No. Although Tim has made noises about loosening LTs rules about getting permission on using photos, he hasn't done so yet. Until then, no relying on implied permission. Get explicit permission, unless the photos have actual wording that says "use this for whatever you want" or "released under a Creative Commons Attribution license" or somesuch.

108Sean191
Nov 17, 2009, 8:10am Top

So with all this conversation - I guess I actually do need to get an answer to my earlier question, but I'll rephrase it a little. What should be considered a bookstore to list?

Quite a few places I would consider bookstores have some other things here and there besides books. Especially when you look at new stores - or even Borders or Barnes and Nobles.

So, should thrift stores with four or five bookcases be listed? Or Salvation Army for example? Or do I just keep them to myself for places I get lucky with finding something valuable now and then?

109TheoClarke
Nov 17, 2009, 8:21am Top

>108 Sean191: If they put their book catalogue online it does not really matter what else they sell.

110eromsted
Nov 17, 2009, 8:39am Top

>108 Sean191:
I would say that any place where the public can go to buy, borrow, discuss or hear about books is fair game for Local. Although if it is not a conventional bookstore or library you will want to be specific about what is available there in the venue description.

But this thread, despite the generic title, is really for bookstores that list their inventories on Abe Books (see the blog post Tim linked at the top) and the work required to link the LT Local pages to the Abe records.

111lilithcat
Edited: Nov 17, 2009, 9:00am Top

> 102

Tim, it may be a pain, but I guess I see a contradiction between these two statements on the Help put used bookstores on LibraryThing page:

LibraryThing is about to unveil a new "Local Book Search" feature, showing you where you can get a book in your neighborhood. (Emphasis added)

vs.

Add and connect only physical bookstores—places you or I could walk into and browse for books. (There's nothing wrong with pure-internet sellers, but this is not for them.)

Appointment-only dealers are somewhere between "places you or I could walk into and browse" and "pure-internet sellers", but they are most definitely places where I might be able to get a book in my neighborhood.

If statement #1 is really what this is for, then appointment-only dealers should be listed.

If a place was physical, but you could only see it, or get a book from it on alternate Thursdays, that would be worse than ordering from Amazon, I think...


It seems to me these are the sort of booksellers whose inventory would not be found on Amazon, as they are mostly antiquarian and rare book dealers.

112elliepotten
Nov 17, 2009, 9:01am Top

How has the list of Abe.com sellers been pulled together for us to make the links? Our bookshop is still missing and I'm trying to explain to Abe... A little worrying that as an AbeBooks seller (and LT venue) we're not appearing in a 'complete' list being used here.

113lampbane
Nov 17, 2009, 12:31pm Top

>>86 timspalding:

Not entirely related to this current AbeBooks project, but I just noticed this over on most-favorited venues:

http://www.librarything.com/venue/27447/The-Book-Depository

I'd normally just nuke it, but with so many users favoriting it I figure surely someone else must have noticed this by now, and there's a valid reason why it wasn't deleted?

Or should it be deleted anyway? I don't see the difference between this and say, Amazon.com.

114lilithcat
Nov 17, 2009, 12:34pm Top

> 113

I'd nuke it.

115lampbane
Nov 17, 2009, 1:15pm Top

>>114 lilithcat:

Just did.

Also deleted BargainBookstore.com, which was added and linked to AbeBooks.

"We have a huge warehouse!" =/= "You can totally visit!"

(In fact, the website specifically says, "we have served the internet book buyer with great deals")

There's gonna be a lot of clean up needed over in Local when this is all done...

116jcbrunner
Nov 17, 2009, 3:44pm Top

>114 lilithcat:, 115: After changes necessitated by greedy Amazon, yanking the visibility of the one competitor bookseller that provides superior service at lower cost to the rest of the world is a bit ironic.

Many people obviously want to show their appreciation and favorite the venue. I vote for being a little bit less trigger happy and restore The Book Depository.

117jcbrunner
Nov 17, 2009, 4:06pm Top

Here in Vienna, many of the "by appointment" used book sellers hold regular jobs and prefer not to waste hours waiting for customers. Thanks to modern communication technology, accessing their hoards is quite easy.

The use case of this feature might be a bit different in German-speaking countries: The local Buchpreisbindung provides for superior logistics. If you phone ahead, your bookstore will positively have the book the next day (obscure works published by tiny imprints, the next week).

A search-by-ISBN approach currently delivers limited value concerning German used books, as many German books (published by governmental organizations, museums, book clubs etc) up to the 1990s lack ISBN (too expensive?), so results are empty despite titles listed on Abe.

118lilithcat
Nov 17, 2009, 4:17pm Top

> 116

You are missing the point. LibraryThing Local is meant for bricks-and-mortar stores or online venues that host author events. It is not intended for Internet-only sellers, large or small, competent or not competent, hated or admired.

It's not a matter of being trigger-happy. It's a matter of ensuring that LT Local is what it claims to be.

119jcbrunner
Nov 17, 2009, 4:25pm Top

>118 lilithcat:

I disagree. There are different use cases. There is obviously a demand for highlighting it (I think mostly for the profile page). I don't think it messes up anyone's local page, so there is no damage. The loss to the profile page is greater than the gained purity of the LT Local index (there are a lot of shadier venues - why should a restaurant keep its listing if it hosted one event eons ago?).

120anglemark
Nov 17, 2009, 4:28pm Top

Because it's a physical place.

121jcbrunner
Nov 17, 2009, 4:33pm Top

The Book Depository Limited (Goodridge Business park, Goodridge Avenue, Gloucester, Gloucestershire GL2 5EB) has a physical existence too. But this is just an edge case where the online setting provides value.

122eromsted
Nov 17, 2009, 4:37pm Top

Note that Book Depository is available as a source under online-booksellers-United Kingdom. So you can add it to your Quick Links even if it isn't in Local. However, I don't think that you can add book stores as favorites unless they are in local.

123PortiaLong
Edited: Nov 17, 2009, 9:56pm Top

>97 timspalding: (WRT 95)

Uncle Hugo's and Uncle Edgar

Hmmmm! Well, I wouldn't sweat it either way--since they are next to each other. Don't link them both to the same venue ID, since then books would show up twice, and that would be odd. Choose one, or make a combined one.

I'm still thinking about this one, considering making a combined one just to link the Abe books inventory to but...

This one is even less clear - as the stores are not next to one another.

Abe Books has entry for Aardvark Book Depot with a PO box address. According to their website they have 7 retail locations: http://www.aardvarkbd.com/retaillocations.html

These are all found in LT Local:
http://www.librarything.com/local_search.php?q=aardvark%20book%20depot&vsm=n...

None of them seems like the "main" store - so who gets the ABE books link? grrr...

(ETA - spelling)

124jmeisen
Nov 17, 2009, 5:28pm Top

Mystery One bookstore in Milwaukee, WI was flagged as not physical, but it is. I did link with the venue ID.

125readafew
Nov 17, 2009, 5:39pm Top

123 > I added all 7 of those but I was at a loss as too which one should get the link.

126legallypuzzled
Nov 17, 2009, 6:40pm Top

>115 lampbane:

I did BargainBookStore.com, linking it to a mall in Grand Rapids.

http://www.bargainbookstores.com/content/Store_Locations.htm

What's wrong with that?

127jjmcgaffey
Nov 17, 2009, 9:03pm Top

123, 125> Yeah, I had the same problem with Wonder Books in Maryland. They have three venues, and I linked the one that seems to be the original - which is not the largest, but is listed first on their own website. I was thinking about linking to the largest...ah well, their website is available through all three sites, so it's only another step. And I have no idea whether the ABE inventory is stored at one spot or spread across all three. I basically just picked one.

128lampbane
Nov 17, 2009, 9:15pm Top

>>126 legallypuzzled:

Well, for one, all locations should probably be in LibraryThing Local, though that's not an issue with the AbeBooks project, just something that should be done eventually.

The site specifically says that online inventory is not available at the store locations, so I don't think it's going to very helpful for Local Book Search since the books will not be local.

I have restored the venue, though, since it is a valid location (though judging from a map, the other Grand Rapids location might be bigger). I'm sorry for deleting it.

129timspalding
Nov 17, 2009, 10:06pm Top

A search-by-ISBN approach currently delivers limited value concerning German used books, as many German books (published by governmental organizations, museums, book clubs etc) up to the 1990s lack ISBN (too expensive?), so results are empty despite titles listed on Abe.

Actually, we parse the titles and authors too. I need to see if it's having character problems. Have you got anything in mind.

130jcbrunner
Nov 18, 2009, 4:34am Top

>129 timspalding:

Test case 1: For Thomas Mann's classic Magic Mountain (Der Zauberberg) LT work 4108376 in "Vienna, Austria" shows 1 match:
Erlesenes Antiquariat und Buchhandlung (1 edition: 1974)

Searching directly in Abebooks.de results in 3 matches:
Erlesenes Antiquariat und Buchhandlung (2 editions: 1929, 1974)
Antiquariat MEINDL & SULZMANN OEG (1 edition: 1964)

Test case 2: Thomas Bernhard - Die Kälte LT work 2374753 in "Vienna, Austria":
no matches

Searching directly in Abebooks.de results in 5 matches:
Antiquariat Buchseite (2 editions: 1984, 1987)
Versandantiquariat Viennabook (1 edition: 2003)
Das Bücherdepot (1 edition: 1981 first edition)
Erlesenes Antiquariat und Buchhandlung (1 edition: 1981)

131legallypuzzled
Nov 18, 2009, 6:17am Top

>128 lampbane:

Thanks. I don't have any connection with the area, but I thought I had found enough points to make a valid match. (I read the site's statement as online inventory *may not* be available at stores, but that's not what it says.) Slightly confusing instructions on this project, though....

132readafew
Nov 18, 2009, 9:58am Top

while checking for existing shops to connect I found Crux Books Venue Id's 40802 and 3637, They appear to be identical but since they were claimed by the owner I cannot combine them. TPTB will have to do it.

133timspalding
Nov 18, 2009, 11:09am Top

Crux Books

Yeah. I can do it. So I did.

134eromsted
Nov 18, 2009, 11:20am Top

Bookoutlet1, 540 N Laurel St, Bridgeton , New Jersey 08302

So what do you think, just a warehouse, or could there be retail sales?
Even with video evidence it's hard to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2aSLPhFm0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OZJhKkF9pA

(I'm leaning toward warehouse)

135TheoClarke
Nov 18, 2009, 2:44pm Top

Please may we have an "unconnected" filter on http://www.librarything.com/help_abe.php?filter= so that we can focus on those vendors that need attention?

136readafew
Edited: Nov 18, 2009, 3:05pm Top

doesn't the 'not linked' work for you? at the bottom?

137lampbane
Nov 18, 2009, 3:09pm Top

So I don't make the same mistake again:

http://www.librarything.com/venue/49720/

JewishUsedBooks.com

No sign on their site or their AbeBooks site that they are a physical, visitable location. I'd like to delete the entry, but I don't want to do that if I'm misinformed.

138TheoClarke
Nov 18, 2009, 3:10pm Top

Doh! Only when I notice it! *shuffles feet*

139readafew
Nov 18, 2009, 3:13pm Top

138 > Well it should speed things up for you now...

;)

140readafew
Nov 18, 2009, 3:16pm Top

137 > they do have business hours and an address, though I agree it sounds like a warehouse not a store.

141readafew
Nov 18, 2009, 3:27pm Top

I was thinking that we need another check box on a venue location Call ahead/by Appointment Only...

142timspalding
Nov 18, 2009, 3:34pm Top

>141 readafew:

Agreed. Although you can put it in the comments. Maybe it's too complex a concept—too many wriggles for a simple box?

143readafew
Nov 18, 2009, 3:48pm Top

I think I have put it in most of the comments, but having a checkbox to either filter on or at least be able to flag for the local user could be very useful. I guess I'm missing what you mean by wriggles?

144eromsted
Nov 18, 2009, 5:00pm Top

>137 lampbane:
This is one of those cases where I would probably have to call them to be sure. I was going on the fact that they have a business address (not residential), that they have hours, and that they don't specifically say they are online-only. Also the "about us" page has a picture of the building and two interior shots that somehow suggested to me that customers could come by, though this isn't explicit.

And no one thought the two youtube videos of the guy dancing in the book warehouse were funny (see message 134)? One that one I was leaning towards assuming the address is not a retail location, but again I would have to call to be certain.

145karenb
Nov 19, 2009, 3:46am Top

TIP: Is the bookseller also on Biblio.com? I've found bookseller addresses there, which can help a LOT.

Also, a bookseller's email address may point (indirectly) to the store's own Web site.

146sarahemmm
Edited: Nov 19, 2009, 6:36am Top

I have had a response requesting me to remove the information. Its venue 49816. Tim et al - can somebody do that for me?

FYI, I have been sending a message via Abebooks to the venues I have linked/created. Details of the wording are on my profile.

ETA Found out how to delete - done!

147SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 19, 2009, 8:35am Top

Oops! I linked Johanson's Rare Books (venue #23339) then erroneously unlinked it. It is a real bookstore in Baltimore, MD, open by appt. only. Could someone correct my error? Thanks.

Fixed it myself!

148lampbane
Nov 19, 2009, 11:10am Top

>>146 sarahemmm:

They asked you to remove the listing? Entirely?

Should we be removing stores from our database because the store asks?

That seems wrong.

149Katya0133
Nov 19, 2009, 11:19am Top

>147 SqueakyChu:

Can you (or someone) tell me how to unlink a venue? (My mistake from #64 is still in the system.)

150timspalding
Nov 19, 2009, 11:35am Top

They asked you to remove the listing? Entirely?

We can remove the link to Abebooks' inventory. You know, if they don't want people to buy their books. But we aren't going to remove the venue page. Venue pages are factual statements about reality. If the store is closed or something, we should kill it anyway. Otherwise, we're no more going to remove it than we're going to remove a book that exists or a restaurant guide would remove a restaurant that exists.

151_Zoe_
Nov 19, 2009, 11:50am Top

If they insist, maybe we can add a disclaimer to the venue page saying that the store doesn't want customers to come there or buy books? :P

152AnnaClaire
Nov 19, 2009, 12:13pm Top

>151 _Zoe_:
I like that idea.

153timspalding
Nov 19, 2009, 12:30pm Top

>152 AnnaClaire:

We could have a pit-bull icon.

154AnnaClaire
Nov 19, 2009, 1:01pm Top

Works for me, though it would have to be pretty darn recognizable as a pit bull.

155justjim
Nov 19, 2009, 4:26pm Top

I've seen some second-hand book store cats that could probably take out a pit bull! :)

156Sean191
Nov 19, 2009, 5:01pm Top

Maybe it's one of those places that require major effort to get into . . . I believe I will go there and get that book from Neverending Story

157lampbane
Nov 19, 2009, 5:32pm Top

Despite all this discussion no one's actually undeleted the entry yet...

158legallypuzzled
Nov 19, 2009, 5:48pm Top

Waiting for the pit bull icon :)

159TheoClarke
Nov 19, 2009, 5:50pm Top

I find it very odd that they asked to be removed from LibraryThing Local but have an entry here: http://www.freewebs.com/yattonvillage/shops.htm that mentions their customer service.

160SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 19, 2009, 8:15pm Top

--> 147

If it's a wrong venue, use the "edit" button. If it says "not a physical store", just enter the venue # and click on "save".

161SqueakyChu
Nov 19, 2009, 8:58pm Top

Some of these are funny...

I was researching a bookstore called Yesterday's Books. When I googled the map, I saw that it was private houses on Yesterday Drive!

Another one was a personal residence in an Israeli Kibbutz. The owner did say he'll show his books at home to whoever wants to see them. If I were there, I'd go have a look!

162Katya0133
Nov 19, 2009, 9:13pm Top

>160 SqueakyChu:

"Edit" takes me to the Cedar Falls Public Library page. There's nothing wrong with the information for that venue that I need to edit, I just need to link Last Century Books to a different number entirely.

163PortiaLong
Nov 19, 2009, 9:26pm Top

I'm still contemplating my conundrums from >123 PortiaLong:.

I've relented and added book/document dealers who don't have "open" stores if they have a web page and offer to let people look "by appointment only" - I put that in the description.

My new conundrum:
http://www.thehouseofchess.com/main.html?src=%2Findex2.html#2,0

This is a Chess Club that sells Chess and Game Psychology books on ABEs. Add it as "Other"? I wouldn't call it a bookstore but it IS a real place.

Always questions, and more questions...

164SqueakyChu
Nov 19, 2009, 9:46pm Top

--> 162

I think you'll have to ask Tim to unlink them.

165lampbane
Nov 19, 2009, 11:40pm Top

>>163 PortiaLong:

Add them in as either "other" or even as a library—according to their website, they have a huge collection of chess books available to browse at the club itself. That in itself makes it a valuable resource for us to list.

166reconditereader
Nov 20, 2009, 1:30am Top

Whoops, I accidentally marked Ancient Mariner Bookstore (venue 50084) as "not a physical store" when in fact it is physical! Will someone fix it, please? Oops! Time for a break! (-:,

167justjim
Edited: Nov 20, 2009, 1:37am Top

>166 reconditereader: That's no biggie! You can add or find the LT Local Venue and still put its number in the link box. Just refresh the page you were working on to move on from the green text.

Edited for apostrophe abuse. I can no longer show my face on Pedant's Corner!

168sarahemmm
Nov 20, 2009, 3:19am Top

>157 lampbane: no one's actually undeleted the entry yet...

Well, I'm certainly not going to! He was pretty explicit!

169DisassemblyOfReason
Nov 20, 2009, 9:33am Top

At one point I think several college bookstores had been flagged incorrectly as being non-corporeal, but the ones I've seen now have venues and are recognized as being real.

A lot of the college bookstores use the same boilerplate for their websites. It might have been that the boilerplate phrasing led to incorrectly identifying some of them as non-physical. (For some reason Abe Books didn't have their brick-and-mortar addresses fleshed out, and just looking at the front end of each college bookstore's website might be misleading if you just scraped it and didn't know what you were looking at - or didn't happen to hit about 4 of them in a row like I did.)

Basically, if you see a venue that has http://www.thecollegestore.com/specificthinghere as its URL, it's going to be a physical bookstore affiliated with some institution(s). Example: The one with a Tuscaloosa brick-and-mortar address is actually associated with the University of Alabama.

(I can't see a way to search through the unconnected venues based on URL, if they happened to have the URL info, but thought it was worth mentioning in case it happened to be possible.)

170Katya0133
Edited: Nov 20, 2009, 10:03am Top

>164 SqueakyChu:

OK, thanks.

TIIIIIIIIM!

171DisassemblyOfReason
Edited: Nov 20, 2009, 10:02am Top

</b>
I've run across a couple of museum and/or library bookshops.

In one case, it had a pre-existing venue that identified it as a library, and was hooked to that. Since we're using radio buttons on the venue, there didn't seem to be a way to indicate that this was a bookshop associated with that library.

In another case, there was no pre-existing venue and I created one that identified it as a bookshop but sent you to the University of Dallas' (I think) website as the URL. The bookshop is tied in with their acquisitions department, I gather.

- edit: does that help with the boldfacing? -

172Suncat
Nov 20, 2009, 10:01am Top

</b>

Just closing the boldface.

173lampbane
Nov 20, 2009, 1:28pm Top

These guys seem to have started out selling at markets, and now they have a website they sell from:

http://www.librarything.com/venue/40811/www.bookworm-abroad.co.uk

Delete or not?

174timspalding
Nov 20, 2009, 1:32pm Top

Don't delete it yet. It's also got event spam on it. I'm going to ask Chris to look into event-spam generally.

T

175lampbane
Nov 20, 2009, 4:17pm Top

I noticed the spam, which is partly why I left it up. :)

(I also mentioned said spammer account in the spam group.)

176lampbane
Edited: Nov 21, 2009, 5:22pm Top

Okay, just found this link:

http://www.mariab.org/open.htm

MASSACHUSETTS & RHODE ISLAND
ANTIQUARIAN BOOKSELLERS

DIRECTORY OF MEMBERS 2009
MEMBERS WITH OPEN SHOPS

EDIT:

Vermont:
http://www.vermontisbookcountry.com/listname1.html

Maine:
http://www.mainebooksellers.org/printermemberlist.htm

There's a Connecticut list, but it's 5 years out of date. The others are a list of dealers with OPEN locations you can visit, so it should be useful. I've already found a handful of stores on the MA list that were marked as "not a physical location."

EDIT: Finished MA & ME.

177sarahemmm
Nov 20, 2009, 5:52pm Top

Well, after all the entries I have done (all vendors informed) I have now had a single thank you! Hurrah for Redruth bookshop!

178lampbane
Nov 20, 2009, 11:40pm Top

Okay, I suck, accidentally linked the North River Antiques Center to the North River Book Shop.

http://www.librarything.com/venue/50147

Sigh.

179timspalding
Nov 21, 2009, 12:39am Top

Fixed. Thanks.

180SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 21, 2009, 9:52am Top

Mom's Books in Carson City, Nevada, was found linked as a real store. It's internet only. I killed the venue on Local but need the AbeLink changed to a flag as not a physical store. Thanks.

181sarahemmm
Nov 21, 2009, 10:38am Top

Oh, Squeaky - didn't realise there is more to it than deleting the venue.

Tim et al, can you reset Elizabeth Crawford and Yatton Books to not physical, please?

182eromsted
Nov 21, 2009, 11:25am Top

>180 SqueakyChu:,181

It is my understanding that non-physical venues should only be included in local if they host online book events. If it's just an online bookseller it should be deleted. See messages 81, 83 and 86 above.

183SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 21, 2009, 12:12pm Top

--> 182

That's exactly what I'm doing. In #180, I'm attempting to correct an error made by someone else.

184eromsted
Nov 21, 2009, 12:37pm Top

>183 SqueakyChu:
Sorry, never mind. I misread the two posts. So the entry on the Abe linking page doesn't reset automatically when a venue is deleted. That's a nuisance. I suppose it's because the venue record is still there, just "archived."

185DisassemblyOfReason
Nov 21, 2009, 12:59pm Top

Holland's Books in Portland, Oregon has an Abe entry saying that they sell books online from a warehouse in inner city Portland, and the street view from Google for their mailing address seems residential, ergo considered that non-physical.

Tried editing the venue to set it to "online only" before deleting it (which turns out to erase the physical address if that was previously set), but it still shows up in the master list without the non-physical flag (even though it knows that the venue has been archived).

186timspalding
Nov 21, 2009, 1:55pm Top

Have to do from 180 on.

187lampbane
Nov 21, 2009, 3:15pm Top

Forgot I was working on ME now, and not MA, and accidentally linked Pine Tree in LTL to the Pine Tree in AbeBooks:

http://www.librarything.com/venue/50221

I am trying to be careful, but sometimes...

188starfishian
Nov 21, 2009, 4:11pm Top

I mucked up one.

Venue 50234 should be linked to

Le Tourne-Livre acco
3 Wellington nord
Sherbrooke, QC, Canada
J1H 5A9
819-348-1604

I clicked 'not a physical store' rather than the save button.

189PortiaLong
Nov 21, 2009, 4:34pm Top

>188 starfishian: - I linked the venue and the "not a physical store" disappeared on refreshing the page.

190starfishian
Nov 21, 2009, 5:08pm Top

>189 PortiaLong: thank you!

191SqueakyChu
Nov 21, 2009, 10:39pm Top

Home based business. By appt only. Store or not a store?

192merry10
Nov 21, 2009, 10:57pm Top

>191 SqueakyChu: I don't think that's a store.

193SqueakyChu
Nov 22, 2009, 12:09am Top

Okey-doke. Thx!

194lilithcat
Nov 22, 2009, 12:43am Top

> 191

Definitely a store. As long as you can make an appointment and go there, it should be entered.

195timspalding
Nov 22, 2009, 12:50am Top

I'd say, as long as you can probably make a timely appointment. The book equivalent of the Hong Kong tailor who visits New York twice a year doesn't count.

196staffordcastle
Nov 22, 2009, 1:34am Top

If it said by appointment, I've been trying to make sure that gets into the description. Same for if there are hours given.

197timspalding
Nov 22, 2009, 1:55am Top

Cool.

198sarahemmm
Nov 22, 2009, 5:58am Top

I have done the same for appointment only ones - and for all, I have tried to add whatever info is available into the description

199SqueakyChu
Nov 22, 2009, 10:11am Top

--> 194 to198

Will do the same. Thx.

201karenb
Nov 24, 2009, 2:07pm Top

Is someone (Dan?) marking all ABE vendors w/o address details as not a physical store? I'm finding that that's not necessarily true for non-US ABE shops. Is there a way to do a more complex search to list out non-US shops marked as "not a physical location"? Also, I know that shops that I marked really aren't (if that makes any sense); I just hope I can remember all their names.

Cheers.
KB

202karenb
Nov 24, 2009, 2:22pm Top

Also, in a project this large, it might be useful to have some way to tell not just who deleted a venue but why. It might save duplicate efforts and thus time (etc.). Even checkboxes would help, with such options as "duplicate venue" or something to show that the vendor told me (by phone or email - I've done both) that they're mail-order only.

For example, I'm trying to figure out whether Holland's Books in Portland, OR is a real place. One site gives only a PO box, but Abe lists a street address. Turns out that someone created a LT venue (found via Google), but someone else deleted it (not found via Search on LT Local). Hmm.

203readafew
Nov 24, 2009, 3:47pm Top

Under a thousand stores left needing a first decision...

204SqueakyChu
Nov 24, 2009, 9:49pm Top

--> 202

I've found that sometimes it's really, really hard to tell. In order to make a venue "stick" in Local, it's important to add any information you can find about bookstore hours or appointments. That alone will probably prevent another person from deleting what you've found to be a real store.

205DisassemblyOfReason
Edited: Nov 24, 2009, 10:39pm Top

--> 202

The deletion / attempt set to online only for Holland's books was me - see 185 above. (They said - i.e., their abebooks.com entry said- they were selling online out of a warehouse in inner city Portland, the street view looks residential - sounded online only to me.)

My apologies if I was in error.

206SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 25, 2009, 12:13pm Top

Under 800 left...

207sarahemmm
Nov 25, 2009, 12:28pm Top

Tim et al...

Oops - clicked 'not physical' against Books for Amnesty, Malvern. Should be venue 50688.

208lampbane
Edited: Nov 25, 2009, 1:14pm Top

>>207 sarahemmm:

When that happens, just search for the venue again and input the number. It'll connect and the "not physical" eventually rights itself.

And I fixed it for you.

209karenb
Nov 25, 2009, 2:43pm Top

--> 205

Cool, no, I got that; that's just when the thing occurred to me.

210readafew
Nov 25, 2009, 2:50pm Top

684 left...

211SqueakyChu
Nov 26, 2009, 12:59pm Top

Less than 450...

212MsMixte
Nov 26, 2009, 2:56pm Top

United Kingdom is finished, although I am not certain that all the Oxfam shops were marked properly. Several of them appear to have been marked as 'not a physical store', whereas it would seem that the shops actually do exist.

Under 400 shops left now...

213DisassemblyOfReason
Nov 26, 2009, 5:55pm Top

> 212

You're right.

Maybe somebody flagged them as non-physical because they had incomplete brick-and-mortar addresses?

Seeing your message, I dug up at least one Oxfam shop via http://www.oxfam.org.uk/shops/content/shopfinder.php that had been marked as non-physical but seems to actually exist. (There was only one Oxfam bookshop in that particular town, so it matched up nicely with the abebooks.com link.)

(Connecting abebooks Oxfam links like that works for cases where there's only one candidate shop in the given town / city, but for cases like Norwich we have multiple venues that could be it.)

Separate issue -

Judging from the Oxfam websites' results, it looks to me like we've got only spotty coverage of the Oxfam bookshops in England and Scotland. We've got better coverage for Ireland and Northern Ireland, since they've got fewer shops.

214MsMixte
Nov 26, 2009, 6:55pm Top

Indeed, there were a few instances of Oxfam having multiple shops in certain places (Norwich having at least three shops, if I remember correctly). Still, I think I will take a look at all the Oxfams and see if they can't be matched up to an abebooks listing.

215PortiaLong
Nov 27, 2009, 12:56am Top

Most of what I am seeing left is in:

Germany
France
Spain
Italy

and a smattering of other (non-English-speaking) countries.

216TheoClarke
Edited: Nov 27, 2009, 4:27am Top

Individual Oxfam shops can be identified on ABEbooks by the branch number in some email addresses or by the street address on the Ask The Bookseller A Question page.

ETA I have fixed the Norwich entry.

217SqueakyChu
Nov 27, 2009, 8:30am Top

Under 350...

Need help with those entries in French, German, etc.

218Katya0133
Nov 27, 2009, 1:30pm Top

I've been picking off the French ones as I can. However, I'm finding a lot of addresses where I can't figure out if they're open for browsing or if they're a "by correspondence only" sort of place.

219sarahemmm
Nov 27, 2009, 2:27pm Top

I had the same difficulty with some of the British ones, though I see someone has now dealt with them. I was a bit chary about getting it wrong, since one of the first ones I did got cross.

220SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 29, 2009, 9:49am Top

I think we can only do what our research allows. We should try to research the entries as well as we can and, in the end, make our best educated guess. For some entries, it really is a toss-up. If no choice is ever made on the final entries, the list of Abestores will never be finished.

Even if our best guess eventually turns out to be wrong, I'm assuming that an entry can always be corrected at a later date.

Thoughts?

I've been using "Google Translate" to help with some of the overseas (for me) bookstores.

http://translate.google.com/#

Hope this helps.

221MsMixte
Nov 27, 2009, 4:54pm Top

Under 300 left...

222elliepotten
Nov 28, 2009, 6:00am Top

Well, I've got Abe on the case trying to work out why our (UK) bookshop still isn't appearing in LT's list to be linked to the venue (48389) on here. Book End, Bakewell. They suggested letting you guys know as well, and since my email's down I'll shout out here for now!

223SqueakyChu
Nov 28, 2009, 11:20am Top

Less than 250...

224MsMixte
Nov 28, 2009, 3:09pm Top

Less than 200...

225SqueakyChu
Nov 28, 2009, 8:39pm Top

Less than 175... :)

226PortiaLong
Nov 29, 2009, 12:28am Top

Trying to catch a few more with Google Translate - now under 150...

227SqueakyChu
Nov 29, 2009, 12:40pm Top

Less than 125...

228MsMixte
Nov 29, 2009, 2:20pm Top

100!

229SqueakyChu
Nov 29, 2009, 8:26pm Top

Under 75...

230PortiaLong
Nov 29, 2009, 11:13pm Top

Wow - you guys have been working hard! - under 50

231readafew
Nov 30, 2009, 10:55am Top

Under 40...

232SqueakyChu
Nov 30, 2009, 12:41pm Top

Less than 35...

233SqueakyChu
Nov 30, 2009, 1:26pm Top

Under 25!!!

234SqueakyChu
Nov 30, 2009, 1:43pm Top

15!!!!

235lampbane
Nov 30, 2009, 1:54pm Top

10.

236SqueakyChu
Nov 30, 2009, 1:54pm Top

:)

237AnnaClaire
Nov 30, 2009, 2:01pm Top

Done? (Wow!)

238SqueakyChu
Nov 30, 2009, 2:03pm Top

Still 4 to go...

239SqueakyChu
Nov 30, 2009, 2:04pm Top

3...

240SqueakyChu
Nov 30, 2009, 2:13pm Top

Just 1...

241SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 30, 2009, 2:18pm Top

Done!

* happy dance*

ETA: Cheers, everyone!!!!!!!

242TheoClarke
Nov 30, 2009, 2:18pm Top

Done! The last one was a French bookseller from Saint Martin Boulogne.

243SqueakyChu
Nov 30, 2009, 2:21pm Top

...and our next project is___? :)

244TheoClarke
Nov 30, 2009, 2:26pm Top

I think that I will catalogue some of my books...

245SqueakyChu
Edited: Nov 30, 2009, 2:29pm Top

No time for that! :)

ETA: Think I'll go do my grocery shopping now...

Later!

246jjmcgaffey
Nov 30, 2009, 2:34pm Top

Update the new Other Author fields from the old? http://www.librarything.com/topic/77663

247eromsted
Nov 30, 2009, 2:36pm Top

Sorry to spoil the mood, but the quest to get to zero may have lead to marking some stores that should more properly be left as unknown.

An example I was just looking at that was marked "not a physical store":
Casa Poletti of Mexico. Their Abe page has a web link at the bottom to Libreria del Abogado. Casa Poletti, by their Abe catalog and website, seems to be the rare books section. Though I could be mistaken, my Spanish is rather incomplete.

So, can you visit these books in person? The contact page on the website mentions several sucursales (branch locations) one of which is on Cto. Moisés Solana, matching the partial address given on the Abe page. Is this a brick and mortar store housing the books listed by them in their Abe catalog? I have no idea. But without knowing more I would have been reluctant to mark it one way or the other.

Did the person who marked this store know something more than the above?

248infiniteletters
Nov 30, 2009, 2:51pm Top

Picking out SantaThing books?
http://www.librarything.com/santathing.php

249lampbane
Nov 30, 2009, 2:56pm Top

>>247 eromsted:

At some point people can go through the "Not a physical location" entries and double-check them. I know I found a few erroneously marked when I cross-checked against the list of antiquarian booksellers in MA, RI, ME, and VT.

As long as Tim leaves the AbeBooks page up it's possible. I just wish there was a way to filter it so we get *only* the non-physical locations.

250justjim
Nov 30, 2009, 3:24pm Top

You guys rock!

251SqueakyChu
Nov 30, 2009, 4:47pm Top

--> 247

I looked through that website, and, although there are several "branches", I don't see where there is a definite indication that the "branches" are open for visitors (no hours of operation, no "by appointment only"). Should there be some indication that these places can be visited, this correction can be made easily by edit if, as lampbane says, the Abebooks page stays up.

-->249 lampbane:

I agree that it would be good for Tim to set up a way to filter only the "not a physical place" stores so that we can double check them as time allows.

252TheoClarke
Nov 30, 2009, 5:50pm Top

I missed the legal bookshops link at the foot of the ABE page and could find no bricks and mortar store called Casa Poletti. Drillinbg down through that link, however, and doing more research, I fould a blog that confirms that the Queretaro store is open to the public. I have now fixed the links.

I am sure that there will be some LT venues that are not open to the public (a consequence of online sellers creating a spurious impression of physicality to increase their credibility) and some "not a real store" sellers mislabelled because their online presence is inconsistently linked with their physical location. Even so, our present researches are vastly better than none.

253eromsted
Nov 30, 2009, 8:03pm Top

>252 TheoClarke:
Thank you. It just happened that I was looking into that store when you made the assignment.

My general concern is now water under the bridge and I agree that it isn't difficult to change a "not a real store" assignment if needs be. I'm also impressed that people did the work to link stores all around the world. I stopped at New Jersey.

Another thought I alluded to above:
In looking at a few international bookstores I had a concern that even if I confirmed a a physical location I was unsure whether the stock listed at Abe reflected the stock at that location. It seems to me to defeat the purpose of this feature if the you can't find the books when you get to the store. But confirmation at that level would probably require calling or writing to many stores. Seems like too much to me. (And to be fair I doubt I was altogether consistent on these issues for the stores that I linked.)

254SqueakyChu
Nov 30, 2009, 8:09pm Top

My general concern is now water under the bridge and I agree that it isn't difficult to change a "not a real store" assignment if needs be.

Just for fun, I went back to see if I could discover a "not a physical Place" that was indeed a real place. I found one and changed it to a real venue with its own ID number with no problem.

255infiniteletters
Nov 30, 2009, 8:18pm Top

Maybe Tim could change the "unlinked venues" headings to "not a physical place" venue? Then people could poke through if they felt like it, or scan for stuff in their general area.

256readafew
Dec 2, 2009, 2:30pm Top

Soooo...

do we get a badge for all that work...

;)

257Aerrin99
Dec 2, 2009, 6:52pm Top

You folks are seriously impressive. Kudos to you!

258trackbianca
Dec 2, 2009, 7:05pm Top

Glad to see it done :)

I also second the creation of a way to bring up a list of non-physical stores only so they can be double checked.

259SqueakyChu
Dec 2, 2009, 8:12pm Top

In the meantime, just poke at them at random to see if you can find some real stores that others couldn't. I already found two. No hurry. We have forever to do this. :)

--> 256

I think that TPTB have so much else on their plate now that they sort of forgot about us. Let's have our own little celebratory party. Whatcha think?

We did well! Good work everyone!!

260staffordcastle
Dec 2, 2009, 8:30pm Top

High fives all around! :-D

261MsMixte
Dec 2, 2009, 8:46pm Top

Thanks to all the dedicated folks who spent many hours getting this done!

262TheoClarke
Dec 3, 2009, 7:58am Top

It was great fun. I must say: "We rock!"

263jcbrunner
Dec 3, 2009, 10:27am Top

Before the caravan moves on, it would be nice to resolve the character set issues that currently bork the feature for many international locations. As it stands, the feature is a kind of anti-marketing: Look at all those stores that don't have the book (even if they do have the book listed at abebooks).

Ssee my test cases upthread at 130.

264brightcopy
Jan 24, 2010, 9:43pm Top

95, 97, 123> Just thought I'd add a bit of local info about Uncle Hugo's/Uncle Edgar's, having just returned from a trip there.

It's actually just one store with one entrance and one set of registers. Uncle Hugo's is all the stuff in the front part of the store, Uncle Edgar's is all the stuff in the back part of the store.

265Radclyffe
Nov 12, 2013, 12:29am Top

Hi. I'm just about to buy the used bookstore in Paris where I worked for some years. Would really like to know more about LibraryThing integration of our inventory. First, I have to catalogue these treasures. We're looking at about 10,000 books.

266jjmcgaffey
Nov 12, 2013, 3:08am Top

Sounds wonderful! I would suggest writing to Tim directly - tim@librarything.com (I got it from the Contact link in the footer). He might see this, but given the age of the thread he might well not.

267Radclyffe
Nov 12, 2013, 8:09am Top

Thanks for that. Will do.

268Keeline
Nov 12, 2013, 9:54am Top

#265 by Radclyffe>

LT is a very good system and the one which I choose to use for cataloging our collections.

As to whether it would be best for a bookseller inventory, it depends on how you intend to use it. If, for example, you plan to list on the used book databases such as ABEbooks, Alibris, Antiqbook, etc. then you need to consider what sorts of files they expect to see and whether you can adapt LT's export files to provide them.

With LT the export is an all or nothing proposition. You can't export just a collection or the results of a search. The export is also not complete in terms of fields. Values in Common Knowledge (series name and number, canonical title, cover image, etc.) are not exported.

Databases that are optimized for inventory control also have separate fields for condition (book and jacket) and asking price. You might also want to note the price paid for an item and its purchase in time, depending on your accounting method. There is also not yet a field for the storage location (sometimes called a "shelfmark") for the item.

You can use the Comments and Private Comments fields to store this data but then you have to figure out how to input and extract the data back out when you need it.

You will need to figure out ways to handle acquisition and sale of items. One question arises, is an item deleted or simply put in a collection to indicate it is not available since you may well come up with the same or very similar book again in the future. There is not an easy way to clone one of your own entries, however, without using something like Brightcopy's script to copy a book detail page to the manual input form. This requires installation of Greasemonkey (Firefox) or TamperMonkey (Chrome).

LT does discourage the act of selling books on the system but does not stop people from using it as an inventory/cataloging site.

In a parallel application, many people would like to use LT for inventory control and check outs for a small library (e.g. church or school). Here too LT falls short of the specialized needs for this application.

There may be ways to establish workflows to get around some of these limitations but you should give them consideration before you go "all in" to catalog everything on LT and thin find you have difficulties getting that data where you need it to be for business.

James

269anglemark
Nov 12, 2013, 10:15am Top

Surely Radclyffe wasn't suggesting he use LT as his bookstore catalog, but that he wants to integrate the stock with LibraryThing Local, to make it accessible for people using LibraryThing Local shopping for books? The cataloguing needed is the one for his own webshop.

Or?

270Radclyffe
Nov 12, 2013, 1:37pm Top

This latter is most definitely the case. We're already have a database (underused, to be sure), and are listing on ABE and Biblio. Integration is what I'm thinking. The location-based search for books on LT is a real stunner, so I'll be looking into that. In addition to the poetry readings we host, I'll be starting up book clubs and discussions, and see no need for them to be limited to a tiny shop on the Left Bank. I've just started cataloguing my own stuff, and am so blown over by the possibilities of this Thing.

271Radclyffe
Edited: Nov 12, 2013, 1:47pm Top

#268 Thanks very much for the information. I wasn't very clear in my post, but what I'm interested in is connecting the bookshop to the local book search. We already have a database, and list some titles on ABE. Other than that, everything is still done by hand. I'll be kicking it into this century pretty soon.

272davidgn
Edited: Aug 1, 2016, 2:28am Top

Just working on adding bookstores with CC-licensed pictures available tonight, and I ran across Gunstock Hill books.

https://www.librarything.com/venue/106103
http://www.gunstockhillbooks.com/
https://www.abebooks.com/338770/sf

Now, when I went to http://www.librarything.com/help_abe.php to try to integrate it, it's nowhere to be found.

Looks like they joined ABEBooks in 2014. So, have we been getting updated feeds, or is this now stale data badly in need of updating?

ETA: Whoops -- make that 2004... So doubly puzzling why I can't find them...

273J_Rome
Jan 10, 2018, 6:35pm Top

A small correction to one of the listings: Mount Angel Abbey Library sells used books on ABE, but the link has been attached to Mount Angel Abbey Bookstore. The bookstore only sells new books on site, but the library sells used books that have been donated or removed from circulation.

Bookstore: http://www.librarything.com/venue/49702
Library: http://www.librarything.com/venue/93411

They share the same address, but are two separate buildings hundreds of feet apart (along with numerous others on the complex).

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