Greece, modern

As a yokel from Amerika, help me understand this business with bailing out Greece. Specifically, what provisions are there to protect other European countries from being responsible for the economic woes of other EU states? Germany has limits (Please describe) on its ability to tell the Greeks how they should spend their money, make their budget, take on debt. But when they run into trouble, the responsibility is collective?

There seems to be a structural problem here, unless I misunderstand. I get that Germany and France are not legally required to step in, but apparently there is some practical necessity for them to do so.

Can someone explain this situation to me?

In brief it's about stabilizing the Euro. If one of the PIGS goes it'll break the currency which will be bad for all of them. There are general guidelines for members of the EU as far as debt load is concerned but they been weakened repeatedly. Italy being the most famous example. Now it seems they have to draw a line in the sand. For the bailout they can of course demand changes much like the IMF does.

The situation is that the European member states are autonomous countries, free to determine their own policies, BUT also that several of us share a common currency: the Euro. When the Euro was introduced strict and binding rules were set up about things like inflation, budget deficits, etc. All participating countries must comply.

Greece has not been living up to the deal, and provided falsified economic data for a number of years. The budget deficit -for example - turns out to be more than 4 times the allowed maximum. The current problem is indeed about the stability of the Euro. Yes, forcing one of the participating countries out would not be good, but allowing this kind of behaviour could be worse.

It's like having a cousin who runs up large bills buying flat-screen TVs, fast cars, nice meals out at expensive restaurants ... which he cannot pay.

You don't want the family name disgraced, so you pay them for him, and make him promise to pay you back some time in the future, and to live less profligately right now.

Of course, he contritely promises to do this. And all his brothers and sisters who see the process, take the lesson to heart.

All the live-for-today members of your family undergo radical character transformations, and become frugal and hard-working.

Hosting the Olympics (2004?) seems to have contributed to Greece's financial woes. Sort of ironic.

>3 Is serious consideration being given to kicking them out?

>4 Doug, I love your light ironic touch! :)

Deep, corrosive, soul-destroying cynicism, actually.

In her very interesting weblog “Ander Griekenland” (The Other Greece) Frederiek Lommen cites Greek journalist Lefteris Papadopoulos (Ta Nea): “We are all pickpockets. We all bribe and are bribed, we build illegally, raise fires, pollute the sea, the air, we don’t know Christ. We think only of ourselves. What can Papandreou do if the state bites you and you bite the state? Not a Greek wants to pay taxes. When you raise the issue he says: “the state cheats us continuously.”

She mentions Nikos Dimou, who in his book “I dys tichia tou na ise Ellinas” (The misfortune of being a Greek) says that the Greek does his best to enlarge the gulf fixed between dream and reality.
In that light she sees Minister of Finances Papaconstantinou’s statement last Saturday: “Greece needs no help at all. The country can do it alone. The country can and will do it!”
http://andergriekenland.web-log.nl/mijn_weblog

We will have to wait and see, many countries have overcome such problems before….

Letting Greece fall would destroy everyone, just as letting Wall Street crumble would have destroyed us all. Most things in life are very complex. This one is quite clear and quite simple. It is the only choice for now. There is no question. The only question is what will the EU do to prevent this from happening again.

Oh, Europe is not going to let Greece fall. We've paid for other less wealthy members before, and we'll probably have to do so again in the future. That's not the point, even though the aspect of fraud raised some bad blood.

But the real question is: how to handle this? Is Greece up to being in the Euro currency? If they can't keep up they might in fact be better of returning to their own currency system.

I think Spain may be in trouble also. And what happens if China stops bailing out the US?

I don't have anything against Greece or the EU... but I'm going to be moving to Austria so it would kind of be in my best interest for the Euro to be horribly devalued at least temporarily just to let the Dollar catch up with them ;-D

>7 I'm sure you come by it honestly, but my sympathies nonetheless! Sometimes delusion is less painful. At least in the short run.

>15 "Unfortunately due to people like you are once great country is now offically fucked"

Kekelso, you are only doing what Greece does now: blaming the others.
“Mr Papandreou told cabinet members at a televised meeting in Athens that the EU lacked coordination and undermined Greece's credibility.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8513430.stm

But who cheated, all those years that alternating ND and Pasok governed Greece?

Year after year we see Greece havocked by fires. Lots of those fires are intentionally made by Greeks themselves, for the money.
Every year we read of promises of the government. And see no change. Not even an improvement of poor fire brigade situations.
For years now, Greece has been fucking itself.
For the money.
If one lives for the money, one shouldn’t be surprised when one is hit by the money.

>16 I always respect your point of view marieke, but in this case you may be wasting your breath. I suspect that kekelso falls under that low class of internet creature, the "troll". He has no books in his profile, has a free account, only joined today. He has created a profile for the purpose of being abusive. He deserves no attention, IMHO. And we value your time!

> 17 Greece feels like my second home Stellar. Thanks for the warning :-)

> 12 Feicht, if you are going to Vienna, planning to do some (big) history, look out for Peer Vries, who is a fantastic teacher. See
http://www.research.leiden.edu/news/why-there-was-no-industrial-revolution-in-ch...

Yes stellar, we have seen this troll thing before, eh? And I absolutely agree with you here

>19 That's the only good thing about something like this -- it reminds me of old times, palling around with you! ;-)

An update:

The Greeks themselves in an opinion pool:
“An ALKO survey carried out on behalf of Proto Thema Sunday paper had interesting findings.
The majority of the respondent (65%) termed the measures taken by the government as necessary, about 24.9% gave them a negative rating, while 10.1% refused to answer. Furthermore, six out of ten citizens approved of the Prime Minister's initiatives, 27.6% of those surveyed branded them as wrong, while 11.9% did not offer an answer.”
http://news.ert.gr/en/economy/news/33289-mprosta-se-krisimes-synedriaseis

Small video about the fight against corruption and bankruptcy:
http://parakalo.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/de-griekse-strijd-tegen-corruptie-en-fa...

Some British expats on the situation:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250808/JOHN-HUMPHRYS-Greece-blame--The-...

The EU “agenda”:
“There were rumours this weekend that with the support of the rest of the eurozone behind it, Athens now hopes to raise new cash from borrowers, perhaps as early as the end of the month, to stave off a default when almost €20bn (£17bn) of repayments fall due in April and May.

Russell Jones, of RBC Capital Markets, said any attempted new bond-issue would be extremely risky, and success or failure could clinch Greece's future. "That's the $64,000 question: if they try and tap the markets, is it a success? If it isn't, Germany and France are going to have to put their hands in their pockets."

Graham Turner, of consultancy GFC Economics, warned that before raising new funds, Greece would have to provide investors with more evidence of its determination to bear down on public spending”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/feb/14/greece-eurozone-public-deficit-fi...

And the “money girls and boys” who will always be with us especially when we are in trouble: http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/news/story.html?id=2562618

Us dumb taxpayers read about things like Greece, sub-prime mortgages, failing Banks, etc. and we ask ourselves the following question:

I didn't lend any money to Greece so they could hire people to sit in government offices and drink coffee; I didn't lend any money to someone who couldn't afford to pay a mortgage but did meet somebody's social engineering criteria; I didn't lend any money to crazy financial speculators ... but somehow, I'm going to end up paying all these people. How'd that happen? Am I too dumb to understand the logic here?

Because we did vote for the people who put us in this position.

And worse we keep voting them back.

Good news????

Lieberman has decided he should try to government rather than politic.

"I’m trying to have a more governmental/legislative, less political year."

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/81007-lieberman-im-trying-to-be-less-politica...

And my stomach turns over, again.

Because we did vote for the people who put us in this position.

And worse we keep voting them back.

Good news????

Lieberman has decided he should try to government rather than be political.

"I’m trying to have a more governmental/legislative, less political year."

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/81007-lieberman-im-trying-to-be-less-politica...

And my stomach turns over, again.

ETA I just noticed how embarrassingly poor my English was in the quote below by theoria. Corrected.

Doug, you realize that you are believing the propaganda the right has developed to explain the sub-prime fiasco. Instead of recognizing that deregulation permitted banks to do whatever they wanted -- including and especially creating a bubble by lending money to those not qualified to repay them -- you are blaming the poor slobs who are defaulting on their mortgages.

By the way, you deny your racism but it is ever lurking below the surface in phrases like "somebody's social engineering criteria". You should realize that most people who have lost their homes are white middle-class people who got poked up the behind by clever sales pitches from their local lenders, who did things like turn "second mortgage" into "home equity loans."

Of course people who borrowed above their means should be held accountable for their lack of responsibility, but your tax dollars aren't helping those people one bit -- your tax dollars are propping up a corrupt, fraudulent financial system who preyed on the weak and still reaped huge rewards.

I supported the Wall Street bailout because I do not believe we can all fall to disaster simply to make a point, but I do think we must punish Wall Street and we must make sure it never happens again by regulating the hell out of them. If you think that is socialism (which it isn't!) then I say let's have a little bit of socialism on Wall Street.

Doug, you are sadly blinded by your own ideology, much like a young earth Christian who thinks Satan has littered the earth with fossils to confuse us with facts.

Not totally in the know about the US situation, but speaking from what I know about the situation here in Holland: it sucks to have to "invest" billions in the banks - just because you can't afford to let the system collapse - when that really means you're bailing out the bankers who made this mess in the first place.

In the old days, the CIA would have bailed out Greece.

yeah good thing its not the old days

Lieberman has decided he should try to government rather than politic.

"I’m trying to have a more governmental/legislative, less political year."

And my stomach turns over, again.

A few things I don't understand:

a) why would anyone seek election to Congress in order to not be governmental/legislative?

b) Why is Lieberman just now making this decision to be a responsible legislator?

c) And, why would anyone elect a Representative or Senator and prefer that this Representive or Senator simply refuse to legislate; prefer that this elected official would take a seat in the political grandstand, hectoring, naysaying, and contributing nothing to the process of governing?

e) In short, why seek to be in government if one refuses to govern, or even professes contempt for government? This could be called the post-Reagan Republicans' Conundrum.

Old boring pluralist theorists like Dahl (Who Governs? and A Preface to Democratic Theory) had it right: American politics at best involves compromise.

Comparing 19th century Germany and today's USA: there used to be complaints about how German political parties went from being parties of notables, speechifying in the Reichstag about philosophical issues, to being "mass parties", which were only concerned with naked, ugly material interests (I believe, for example, here: Thomas Nipperdey, Die Organisation der deutschen Parteien vor 1918). At present the US system, or at least the Republican leadership, has reverted to the 19th century German way of doing politics.

Garp: I actually don't have a theory about what has happened to bring the capitalist system to its knees. I'm perfectly happy to believe that bankers have gamed the system, that white middle class people have gamed the system, that everyone who thought he could make a quick buck, or get someone else to pay his bills, has gamed the system.

This isn't a coherent theory of anything, just my disposition to assume humans act in self-interested ways most of the time, and that they are often short-sighted, and that everyone wants to use the state to get their hands on other peoples money -- for the best possible reasons of course.

I assume that in a system -- or the kind of system we live in nowadays -- where the state plays a minimum role, the self-interest of lots of competing interests will overall work in a good direction, over time and on the average. Thus if a banker thinks you will pay your mortgage off and he'll make money out of you, he will lend you the money, even if you're a Jew or a Black. And that if he has to be coerced or bribed by the state to lend money to people he wouldn't otherwise lend money to, then we can expect trouble down the line. I also doubt that this was a major cause of our problems.

It may be that we require regulation of the banks. There are people with my general outlook on life who are also thorough-going Keynesians. And they may be right. I don't know enough about it to have an informed opinion. I do know that the modern intelligentsia hate banks and corporations for reasons that have nothing to do with any genuine transgressions these institutions may commit, and this makes me skeptical of do-gooder proposals to control them. I really don't want Barney Frank making decisions about society.

However, I grant that this is not a coherent position.

But you have betrayed your real views with the shot to Barney Frank, who somehow (according to right-wing paranoia) was responsible for it all, especially as a lone Democrat out in the cold with an overwhelming Republican majority. Sorry man but Barney's just not that tough!

Your belief: "where the state plays a minimum role, the self-interest of lots of competing interests will overall work in a good direction, over time and on the average" has proved itself wrong over and over again. I don't believe in a socialist heavy-handed state -- I am a free market capitalist -- but if you let financial interests do as they please, they will destroy everyone for their own enrichment. This by the way is what people do when there is no law. I find it interesting that the gun lobby admires the old west so much, but the fact is that people killed people with impunity until they brought in bd men and gave them badges (like "Little Bill" in the Unforgiven or Wyatt Earp in real life) who denied anyone the right to carry a gun except the guys wearing the stars. To assume that an unregulated Wall Street will on average act in everyone's interest is a fallacious argument that belies our actual history of the Gilden Age, the Great Depression and last year.

I know it's easy to slip into "local politics" again with the number of Americans on here, but would the USanians mind to take the discussion of US financial problems&politics to a separate thread? It's rare enough to have an Europe-centred topic around here :-).

Back to topic:
What would be the alternative? What would the financial collapse of a state look like? And do we really believe that that wouldn't harm the Euro?
Also: Will the Greek be able to change the way in which things are done in Greece?

It doesn't look like the Eurozone countries are willing to bail out Greece right now:
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/What-will-save-Greece-now-pd2...

And some vultures are already circling over the next roadkill:
"Berlin worries that helping Greece financially would set a precedent, making it liable for any future bailouts of weak states in the south of the euro zone. In addition to Greece, markets have been speculating about Portugal and Spain."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61819O20100212

I know it's easy to slip into "local politics" again with the number of Americans on here, but would the USanians mind to take the discussion of US financial problems&politics to a separate thread? It's rare enough to have an Europe-centred topic around here :-).



Hush, now. You should be glad to be allowed to bask in the glow of our "higher civilisation". Just ask Doug.

We should guard the tendency, but I did think the US financial crash related to the world financial crash. Hence the good news that Lieberman had decided to govern rather than politic.

I had mentioned Spain above. Is the Spanish economy is as bad shape as the economy of Greece?

Having started the thread, I am especially curious about what Europeans feel about a situation that seems to call for some serious remedial action. As in either Greece is bailed out, but with meaningful consequences to discourage future misadventures, or revising the system in some way.

It seems that the system needs revision. A unified Europe has tremendous advantages; economic, social, and most of all a decrease in wars. But the Euro?
How can you have a currency without a central bank that can regulate its growth?
A currency needs to keep track of the growth of its economy so that it can expand and contract in order to meet its role as a means of exchange. Unemployment and inflation is different in each of the countries tied to the Euro. The central bank can't expand, contract or devalue the Euro with individual countries in mind. Any action will exacerbate the weaknesses or strengths of individual nations. More economic integration is needed before a common currency can be established. In the mean time, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Ireland need to be kept afloat.
Nationalism was a major cause of World War I. The shooting may have ended but the disease is still smoldering.

#34 Jesse LOL

>33
How difficult it will be for the Greeks, is best illustrated by Doug. Everything Doug stands for has hit & has been hit itself severely by the 2008 crisis and will hit & be hit again by the new upcoming crises, and Doug keeps his strong “partisan” belief in neoliberalism where once when younger, he had the strength to leave (neo)marxism…

But in the Greeks I have a strong belief:
1. Many of them are fed up with the present state of affairs in their country (see the video in post 22);
2. For the younger ones (who are the future!) it will not be so difficult to change their ways. (And isn't change permanent, these years for Europe's working people)

>36
Monetair economist Edin Mujagic pleads for the option: Don’t help Greece (or Portugal, Spain, Italy who will come next). In stead of that: help Ireland. Ireland had similar big problems, underwent successful a serious and painful economic program. It is thém who should be rewarded. At the same time this will set an example.
http://www.mejudice.nl/artikel/364/eu-moet-ierland-helpen-niet-griekenland

> 37: Ah, but there is a European central bank, which is partly why there is so much upset. Greece isn't at liberty to decide its monetary policies all by its own, but apparently tried to do so anyway.

US economist Paul Krugman's take: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/opinion/15krugman.html

He argues that, while Greece may have been irresponsible, the fundamental problem was that Europe really wasn't yet ready for a single currency at the time the Euro was introduced. He says there were extensive warnings from economists on this point.

I've been wondering what the difference is between the situation in a struggling EU country compared to in a struggling US state. After all, like an EU country, an individual US state doesn't have the ability to alter monetary policy as a means of softening an economic mishap.

Krugman says: "Now, if Spain were an American state rather than a European country, things wouldn’t be so bad. For one thing, costs and prices wouldn’t have gotten so far out of line: Florida, which among other things was freely able to attract workers from other states and keep labor costs down, never experienced anything like Spain’s relative inflation. For another, Spain would be receiving a lot of automatic support in the crisis: Florida’s housing boom has gone bust, but Washington keeps sending the Social Security and Medicare checks."

I see the second point, but why wouldn't Spain be able attract lower cost workers from other countries, as Florida can?

And can anyone illuminate better the differences between US states and EU countries in approaching economic problems? Thank you.

>40 Point taken about Greece's violation of the rules. But isn't Greece's inability to decide its monetary policy part of the problem here?

>39 I used google translate to read your Dutch link, Marieke.

This part was confusing, "The Southern European countries are not the only countries where the euro water to the lips. Ireland also threatens cup to set. "

I have now read all the links in all the above posts. It strikes me that none of them are writing about the fundamental structural problem of the single currency. Perhaps that is because it is perceived that addressing that would result in a catastrophic economic dislocation/crisis. If so, doesn't this suggest that Europe may be saddled with a system that politically and economically can't be remedied, and yet exacerbates the economic problems of struggling members?

>If they can't keep up they might in fact be better of returning to their own currency system.

I doubt that they will agree - because this will more or less mean that next time they will be let fall. It's another story if the whole mess won't end up being used as an excuse for not getting us with the Euro as per the initial plans.

>the fundamental structural problem of the single currency
I do not think that there is a real trouble with the single currency as long as the countries that use it do not behave badly - and that's one of the ideas - unite Europe through economy and currency (because the political way won't work ever). A struggling member should either had asked for helped much earlier and not lied... or should be still waiting for getting into the list of countries with the Euro. As we do - technically we are tied to the Euro now (financial board because of the hyperinflation at the end of the 90s) but we are still with our own currency...

Just now it is kinda.. funny watching someone else being the trouble child of EU for a change... not that we had become better - just Greece managed to make things really bad for them. But with the EU as it is... Greece need to be bailed out. Otherwise all that had been built here will be in vain... and we will back in time.

Now - Greece is kinda a pain in the behind for me lately because of the other issues there at the moment - the farmers blocking the exits of the country which effectively blocks us as we happen to be on the other side of the exits. I understand the idea and that they need to protest but it is the Bulgarian economy that suffers - living in the middle of the peninsula kinda guarantees that if anyone here is unhappy, we get it badly.

isn't Greece's inability to decide its monetary policy part of the problem here?

To some extent. But that's a clear consequence of entering the monetary union. The rules were (and are) quite clear. If they're not able or prepared to deal with that they shouldn't have joined.

why wouldn't Spain be able attract lower cost workers from other countries, as Florida can?

They are free to attract people from other Europen union states. The only real problem I see is that Spain is already one of the lower labour cost countries in Europe. Language barrier could also play a role - but that simply makes it a bit harder to integrate new people than it would be with people moving between US states.

> 43: That's because of Google translate.

It should read something like: "The South-European countries are not the only Euro countries where the water reaches to the lips. Ireland risks to go down as well."

>why wouldn't Spain be able attract lower cost workers from other countries, as Florida can?

They do actually - from Bulgaria and Romania. But they would not be able to get anyone from the older members - simply because the payment in Spain seem to be lower than anywhere else.

> 43 Good of you!
Dutch is easy ;-)

Lunching with the beautiful digital diary of my work I make this of it:
“South European countries are not the only countries who are up to their neck in these problems. Ireland too threatens to duck under”.

"Mejudice" is a site I often turn to. Clear formulating economists for their colleagues and laypersons such as me they are.

Here is another economist for you, Roel Beetsma, who is pretty optimistic. The summary of his article is:
“The euro will survive. But this business with Greece has further harmed trust in European budget rules. The European Commission and the ECOFIN (= Council of Economic and Financial Affairs) however, in the next months can win back a lot of that lost trust by forcing Greece to be as good as its word and execute its plans to drive back the deficit.
http://www.mejudice.nl/artikel/361/faillissement-griekenland-haalt-euro-niet-ond...

But with Beetsma I have some doubts. One of them is: he is Dutch. For us Dutch, being primary a trading nation, it is not a bad thing at all if the Euro falls (somewhat) and the dollar rises.
For other EU countries that's different.

Edit: digital "diary" is of course "dictionary" (De Dikke Van Dale Digitaal. I would I had such a thing at home)

> 45 "I understand the idea and that they need to protest"

Dit you notice Annie, that much less people walked in the protest marches than was expected?
It is a thing that gives me hope. Greece needs to change, for its children's sake!

>50

I am too annoyed at listening about all these every time I start a radio or TV in the last months here to pay any attention to how many people protest really. :) Besides - I am not sure our news here are giving this information... And the exits of the country are still blocked... so I do not really care if it is 10 or 1000 people :)

Oh, I really need to change my focus a bit it seems. With all the hullabaloo over the German involvement in Afghanistan, I have only glanced over news from other corners of Europe... --I hadn't heard about Greeks blocking the borders! Off to read some news...

There are some interesting articles out there comparing the Greek and the Californian situation btw.
"Trichet to Greece: Drop Dead!
Obama to California: Uh…"
This commenter, however, doesn't see it happening.

> 52
Oh but don't forget Afghanistan, GirlFI.
(The subject is pretty "hot" with us these days, before March our government decides about yes or no prolonging our stay, NATO wants us to stay. Will our government keep its promises about the no?)

I've been reading a bit away from the major media's coverage of Greece. IOW, some blogs and discussion boards with Greek Participants. Some thoughts I've seen expressed. Greece is a hidebound and conservative country. At present, most people have to wait for their slot into a position of respect and 'middle class' lifestyle. This comes in the present system around the mid-40s. There is pent up resentment from the energetic and ambitious people in their 20s and 30s with no place to expend that energy. Entrepreneurial, academic, employment, and business opportunities are limited. That seems to be the gist, anyway. Some of this uncontrolled energy is pouring into anarchist groups out of frustration. The government is sluggish, unresponsive, corrupt, and near broke financially. They seem to be saying Greece is a static country in dynamic times. Do these views seem valid to others that are closer to the situation than I am?

I think the biggest difference between EU nations ans US states economically is that US states aren't allowed to run deficits.

>52
Well - it is not a news anymore - they are doing it from weeks :)) Afghanistan is an open wound here as well - a huge number of the Bulgarian soldiers were brought back this month but we still have people there and we get news for bad injuries...

>54
Hm - not entirely from what I had seen. It is a country as any other - has its problems and so on but it's much better than Bulgaria for example. As long as someone is ready to work, they will be ok. But that's Balkans thinking for you - the country is responsible for you and you are never in the wrong.

>55 I assume that should read "the biggest difference between EU nations and US states economically is that EU nations aren't allowed to run deficits.

> 57: Don't know about the US states. European nations participating in the Euro - not all of them do - are allowed to run up a deficit, to a maximum of 3%.

#57: Then what are they all doing here? They should all be chucked out of the Eurozone! ;-)

US States are not allowed to run deficits. Not 1, 2 or 3%, the books must be balanced at the end of the fiscal year. Of course there are budget tricks that are used if the state is in a bind but in general they don't run year after year deficits like the US gov't does.

Some of the info in the blog post is older, but I doubt more current data is any better. A good link to a WSJ article with a timeline ane other graphics.

> 44 “It strikes me that none of them are writing about the fundamental structural problem of the single currency.”

In Holland you can hear a lot of nostalgia for our “guilder”. When we switched to the euro in 2001 we all had problems: at once we were much poorer. Did you have a salary of 2200 guilders, now you had one of 1000 euro. And the prices fell at a very different rate or not at all. Most of us were permanent in the red in the first years, while in the time of the guilder we were able to save. That was with us. In Greece it was worse, I was told. Same problem on a much bigger scale: the drachme was a very devalued currency (devaluation being "the Greeek way"). Many, many drachmes made one euro, so many people euphorically thought things to be very cheap and got them selves in big trouble.
The first time I was glad with the euro, was when the 2008 crisis hit. I think it saved us for worse. (And of course, it is a nice facility when you go vacationing in other European countries).
Some of my compatriots still want the guilder back, I am not one of them.

Of late there has been talk of splitting the euro up in two kinds, one for the Northern and one for the Southern countries, a bit bizarre I think. Does Puerto Rico have another kind of dollar than the USA?
Here an article in which some economists play with this thought and some other ones:
http://www.nrc.nl/international/europe/article2483741.ece/Speculation_on_the_dem...

#39: "How difficult it will be for the Greeks, is best illustrated by Doug. Everything Doug stands for has hit & has been hit itself severely by the 2008 crisis and will hit & be hit again by the new upcoming crises, and Doug keeps his strong “partisan” belief in neoliberalism where once when younger, he had the strength to leave (neo)marxism"

Hmm... I am flattered. I admire "the Greeks" enormously, although mainly the dead ones.

As for my "belief in neo-liberalism", I don't know what !neo-liberalism" is. (And I was a Marxist, no neo- about it.) I do believe in free markets, but I also am willing to believe they need some regulation. Exactly how much, and what, I have not a clue. I am ignorant of economics, sadly. I do know that schemes that sound very nice when decent middle-class intellectuals think them up, often work out very differently from what their proposers intended.

As for the 2008 crisis of capitalism... well, I admit I was really shaken by it. Here I was, believing that capitalism was a smooth, perfectly-functioning system, which just kept growing in a steady, linear manner, with no booms or busts, no collapses, and then .... whoa! Now I'm going to get out my history books and see if anything like this has ever happened before.

>63 You do have the ability to make me laugh, Doug. I guess I am susceptible to the humor in "Deep, corrosive, soul-destroying cynicism"

>62 The pessimism the article expresses about the Euro sans greater political unity does sounds like what I have been expecting to hear, marieke. Except for the North-South split, which sounds more like the north not wanting to be dragged down by the south, and it's hard to see what would be in it for the south, who still would, under that schema, be unable to do what uncoupling would ideally do for them, ie allow control of their own monetary policies again.

As a non-economist one of the things I find interesting about economics is that there is nowhere near a final theory of economics. It is a soft science that appears to me will always remain a soft science. Every meltdown has some similarities with previous ones but they are far from identical. The same is true of rapidly expanding economies. Economists go back to their equations and theories after big economic events and invent/discover even more equations and theories. Many of which are at odds with each other. It's a field that is unembarrassed by the plethora of competing explanations.

#62, Marieke: There isn't much nostalgia for the D-Mark here**. Even though people could probably shift the blame to the Euro for the fact they haven't seen a substantial rise in 10 years. OTOH, the lag in real wages rising anywhere near the levels of the other European countries probably was one of the reasons for Germany getting through 2009 more or less unscathed, being able to offer competitive prices.
{provocation}The Greeks can have my tax money when they share some of the 39% they got as rises in the last 10 years.{/provocation} No really, my country managed the integration of a whole bankrupt country (the GDR). Every one of us is still paying a monthly tax that goes to the new Länder. If we could do it (and still be a net payer in the EU), surely the Greek can do it? And stellar, I doubt that taking control of their monetary policy again will help them with it --there are structural problems that need to be addressed.

**Although a colleague of mine found a 1-DM coin in his wallet last week (that someone gave him as change, apparently) and showed it around. Everyone wanted to have a look ;-).

StellarExplorer: Lenin said that to be a Bolshevik, you needed patience, and a sense of irony. But I think these criteria apply to anyone who is obsessively interested in politics.
Ghost: My ex-wife (one of them) was and is an economist. She told me an economists' joke once:

An economist and a physicist were having tea in the Senior Common Room, and the physicist was complaining about the time it took to prepare a new set of examination questions every year. The economist said, "Well, we don't have that problem." "Why not?," asked the physicist. "We just use the same questions over and over again," the economist answered. "But how can you do that? Won't the students find out that you don't change the questions?" said the physicist. "They do," said the economist, "but it doesn't do them any good, because we change the answers."

I remain convinced that free market capitalism is the best system here and in Europe IF and ONLY IF there is a fixed limit on how large a business or corporate entity can grow, which limit ensures that the market will continue to spur competition and innovation. Typically, big business capitalists promote deregulation while ensuring that the kind of regulation (i.e. copyright law) that is friendly to their interests will be in place.

Given the history of the 20th century, I am proud of Europe to have come this far with integration. Of course there will be fits and starts. Member nations must step in and help each other, even if that help seems like aid to your drunk stepbrother who never amounted to anything. It is the way you fix things, not by punishing. Here in the US for the last 30 years we have focused on punishing the wrongdoers in every sphere and it has gotten us nothing but the largest prison population in the world. Save Greece and work on prevention after the fact. Europe has come too far to abandon the course of integration.

The abuse in US markets has been a corrosive force far greater than any irresponsibility by a member state. Would Iceland have been teetering on the brink in '08 if not for the US?

Paul Krugman blames the hubris of the Western European elite for thinking so many different nations of Europe were ready for a single currency before the time was ripe

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/6868575.html

A good article Chris. It's the one I referred to in >41 above.

> 63

“I do believe in free markets, but I also am willing to believe they need some regulation. Exactly how much, and what, I have not a clue.”

Good to read this, Doug. This is also where I stand more or less, although I probably am not unwilling to accept more regulation than you. That’s because I need not be rich but want to have a good life in a well kept environment (infrastructure, public transport, schools, hospitals, theatres, enough nature etc. etc.). For which I am prepared to pay a lot of taxes. Yes, I am happy to pay my taxes and an important part of democratic politics for me is: deciding what we will do with the common money.

In fact my inability to declare myself a pacifist is situated here: I really hate those who disturb these peaceful processes. Give me a rifle and I shoot the circling vultures from the air.
How good that possession of weaponry in Holland is forbidden.

The Paul Krugman article (see 41 and 71) is indeed interesting, but I think his political argument about the problems of the Eurozone is stronger than his economic one. That is, he's right that political union - turning EU members into states in a federal system - would help avert some economic problems of the current Spain variety. But it would not necessarily eliminate Greece-style crises.

Look at California - the fiscal crisis there is on a scale similar to Greece's. The difference is that California has stronger (internal) legal restrictions on spending, a more transparent budget process, and apparently faces tighter constraints in the financial markets. But its membership in the United States of America has not prevented fiscal "irresponsibility" from causing problems, and there's little reason to think that a United States of Europe could entirely prevent this either.

Back in the early 1990s, when I was at the OECD and debate about adoption of the Euro was raging, part of the argument in favor was that members who overshot the prescribed budget limits would face various economic sanctions from the others. In fact, such sanctions never really materialized. It probably would be easier for the EU leadership to informally pressure the "states" of some future USE to curb their fiscal excesses than it is for them now to coerce sovereign nations. But unless USE fiscal as well as monetary policy was centralized in Brussels, it could not eliminate all "state" fiscal problems.

Krugman's argument that adopting the Euro before attaining full political union was a mistake is open to question, but he makes an additional point that is not: to reverse the Euro policy now would provoke financial catastrophe. Maybe that's what the creators of the Euro intended - to push Europe past some point of no return and make political unity a bit more inevitable (eventually).

In any event, the current world recession has certainly revealed the weaknesses of all of our economies, on both sides of the Atlantic. Perhaps the current problems in the Eurozone will prompt some useful measures to improve the functioning of the European economy. We certainly could use some serious economic and financial reforms on this side of the pond.

>71
sorry, I missed that...

Today’s Kathimerini:

“What do foreigners know?

“(…)So what do foreigners see when they look at Greece? A budget deficit equal to 12.7 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) and a public debt at 112 percent. But it’s not just the numbers that drive them crazy – there are also the demonstrations demanding the continuance of unbelievably early retirement and various “bonuses” that increase monthly wages. What foreigners do not see is that while 40-50 percent of each salary goes to taxes and social security contributions, the benefits are paltry in relation to what they cost each citizen; the shortcomings of public education force parents to spend a fortune on private tuition for their children; anyone needing serious medical treatment is obliged to pay more in order to be treated humanely; drivers pay exorbitant tolls for terrible roads that they’ve already paid for with their taxes; we live among garbage dumps, pollution and general disorganization; we are frightened by increasingly organized crime.

(…)Low productivity and the lack of competitiveness is owed mainly to the hostile state apparatus, the lack of coordination in every endeavor and at every level, the selfishness of each group that works for its own interests against those of the common good and the general indifference and venality of a political system that is based on selfish arbitrariness and the bribing of interest groups.

If foreigners knew what the Greek citizen is up against, they would see Greeks differently – perhaps with a combination of awe and pity. But if the Greeks themselves cared more about their future, things would not have come to this point – where their own country keeps cheating them and at the same time makes the whole world see them as cheats.”
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_columns_1_16/02/2010_114914

#75, "the selfishness of each group that works for its own interests against those of the common good(...)".

Isn't this the anthem of the Libertarian? But, it can't be. Libertarianism is the cure for all political and economic ills, isn't it?

I know nothing about Greece today and therefore am in a perfect position to comment, not being burdened by partisan knowledge.

My guess is that various voting blocs among the Greeks have been using the power of the government to vote themselves a free lunch. Nice cushy government jobs with early retirement and gold-plated pensions, for example. Fat contracts to favored companies to do work that would be done for half the price in a free market. Better and better social welfare provisions.

But it's painful to pay for these things via taxes, so ... borrow the money! After all, governments can't go bankrupt.

The beauty of this system is that you can accommodate politicians and voting blocs of the Left and Right with it.

And real beauty of it is that .. the Germans will pay in the end!!!!

#76: Libertarians don't advocate letting each interest group fight to capture as much of the government as it can. They want groups to compete in a situation where, if a group isn't delivering value, it loses income. The government isn't like that. When did you hear of a public school going bankrupt? When a public school doesn't deliver what it's supposed to, everyone (except a few crazy libertarians and heartless conservatives) says it should have even more money.

Here is a real libertarian view: Here..

Libertarianism is like communism: both are unencumbered by reality checks and common sense, while their respective leaders stamp their feet on the floor like Rumpelstilkstin insisting that if you just had common sense you would recognize that their reality is the correct one.

Political philosophy needs to be built upon a foundation of what the real world is all about, not the other way around. Communists insist that the state needs to make the best dedisions for the individuals. Libertarians believe that individuals need to make the best decision for the state. In fact, most people are greedy and self-interested, and most states are greedy and self-interested. Both of these bankrupt philosophies lack the balance that a mixed economy with proper checks & balances and responsibile regulation will produce.

Libertarians & communists pay no taxes, in theory, and in reality they get nothing or next to nothing. Taxes are in fact a good thing: taxes are the price of democracy. Taxes, as usual, are not a problem, unless you don't get anything in return for taxes, as in Greece above. Which points to a problem in real life in Greece, not in political or economic theory.

Australian, but own a business in greece, havent read all the posts here but heres my take. Greeks wanted to join the euro through nationalistic pride even though there economy wasnt suited to it, they just didnt want to feel like the second tier european country they are. Prices increased significantly over night, losing Greece its price advantage over other parts of Europe. They had to lie to get into the euro and successive goverments kept the lie going, but eventually the flaws in Greece's economy were bound to bring about this denouement. Basically the tax system is heavy handed and anti business, the labour laws the same. A lot of businesses are only open for the summer tourist season and cant afford to hire greek workers and pay greek social and health payments so they employ albanians and macedonians etc for the labout jobs and backpackers for the front of shop stuff like waitressing etc. The average greek doesnt trust his government to use his money wisely- so they tell me anyway- and so the businessmen are walking around with wads of euros because tey cant put them into the bank and expose their wealth. They need a tax amnesty and modern taxing and albour laws and Greece will come out of it in about 5 years. This has very little to do with modern capitalism in a crisis, its very mediterranean based ie just look at Italy and Spain for similar problems.

75- " Low productivity and the lack of competitiveness is owed mainly to the hostile state apparatus"
_________

In reading about Greece, this sentiment expressed in different ways is one I see repeatedly. For Spain, I'm reading/hearing that it's mainly recessionary pressures but in Greece it's more than that.

#79: Snap!

80 “They need a tax amnesty and modern taxing and labour laws and Greece will come out of it in about 5 years. This has very little to do with modern capitalism in a crisis, its very mediterranean based ie just look at Italy and Spain for similar problems.”

The family and other not so big businesses being a country’s backbone, this would be very helpful. But as Mediterranean based as this crises may be, since international financial “vulture culture” dived upon it, it has a supra European aspect.
(http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-15/greece-s-goldman-sachs-swaps-spawn-e... )

#82 Doug -- excellent article. It is rare -- extremely rare -- that I read a conservative editorial with which I concur 99% of the way.

No one hates, or effectively criticizes, conservatives like other conservatives. (Okay, libertarians are on the Right but are not conservatives. Same difference.)

I could earn a full time living writing for the Nation, just by re-writing conservative attacks on other conservatives. It's like you read about sharks, who get into a feeding frenzy tearing apart some poor seal and then turn on each other.

You might also enjoy the libertarian ripostes: in particular, Hayek's Why I am not a Conservative.

It was an interesting article. This is a bit (entirely, actually!) off-topic, but I was struck by this line: "Taken to its logical conclusion, the reduction of the good to the freely chosen means there are no inherently good or bad choices at all, but that a man who chose to spend his life playing tiddlywinks has lived as worthy a life as a Washington or a Churchill."

I wonder what the author really has in mind about the worthy life. Is there something wrong with reading books as a prominent endeavor? (Ie, have I been insulted?) Is that like playing tiddlywinks? Should we feel we are falling short if we are not living up to the Washingtons or a Churchills of the world?

We should thank God for two things: that Washingtons and Churchills exist, and that they aren't us.

They no doubt didn't only choose to be Washingtons and Churchills, but were also products of their circumstances.

Author Petros Markaris: “…there is now only a single way out of the crisis: If the country is going to be reformed, the Greeks must suffer.”
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,681705,00.html#ref=rss

89- Greece is kinda getting the same message the US is. Man cannot live on credit and debt alone.

My partner had a small heart attack some says ago and is now in heavy care waiting for treatment. Had this happened two weeks later, we would have been in a small, remote village on a Greek island.
With all the fright, so glad we are to have escaped a certain scenario!

We both love Greece, but we cannot en will not deal with corrupt doctors. We simply don’t have the money for the small envelops.

With help Greece can handle the present crisis.
But can the Greeks make an end to the ubiquitous corruption - that will result in a new crisis? Or will European tax payer’s money be thrown in the meltemi?
Only the Greeks can say.

The above was written before autonomous testosterone took over in Athens. What a shame! We remember the film Z, about the days that Greek turmoil gave the Colonels a chance to take over. And at the same time we understand the anger of the ordinary, hard working Greeks. Can’t the big profiteers who transferred their money to "safer" places be seized upon?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/apr/13/greek-debt-crisis-capital-outflow

Edit: The Kathimerini:
“The only cure is for our politicians to agree on a constitutional amendment that will annul immunity from prosecution for former and serving ministers and MPs, on trimming down Parliament to 200 members and to sending the crooks and tax evaders either to court and jail.

Then they can explain that the EU and IMF plan contains the same measures that they have known the country needs for the past 20 years, that these measures will help drive the country’s growth.”
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_columns_100006_06/05/2010_116895

I am reading the vivid near-future techno-thriller This is not a Game by Walter Jon Williams. In it the Indonesian rupiah crashes, and the government establishes a rule that no more than $50 worth of currency per day can be withdrawn from banks, in order to prevent the flight of money. A desperate measure, and one that brings about anarchy in the streets. (I recommend the book, if you like near-future spec fic)

But are the ordinary, hard-working Greeks innocents here? I can't evaluate the claim being promulgated that it is primarily "The (profligate) Greeks", workers included, who are responsible for their own problems, and that extends beyond governmental policies and deception into Greek culture and expectations themselves.

This is how the Kathimerini evaluates, Stellar:

“Greece has been gradually pulled apart over the past 30 years. The “Myconos crowd” siphoned off state money and put politicians and media outlets on its payroll, making a pot of cash in the process. This posse was abetted by the so-called Polytechnic generation, who cashed in on their activism while maintaining they were socialists.

Now we have an intelligentsia that is hooked on patron-client exchanges and mediocrity, and a political establishment whose biggest concern is keeping its piece of the pie safe. On the flipside of the same coin we have a culture of protest in which anything goes and which tries to justify every “accident,” like yesterday’s murder of three working people by a hooligan who flipped them the finger when he saw them choking on the smoke of his firebomb.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_columns_100006_06/05/2010_116895

And:
“We have the leadership of the country’s second biggest political party opting for a populist line of rhetoric and failing to answer a simple question on whether or not it will support the government’s economic recovery plan.

We see a society that is mad, and justifiably so, and we see it going down an ill-advised path.

Then we see the government, caught in the grips of panic, contributing to the populist fever and pouring more oil over the fire.”
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_columns_1_06/05/2010_116894

The Greeks we know are ordinary, hardworking people, some of whom more than 15 years ago already were very pessimistic about their future. We, vacationing in their beautiful country, thought them “mopes” at that time.
Are they innocent? They were part of this "system". Still, there were people in Greece who did pay their taxes.

Edit: the book, This is not a game, looks fascinating. When our own lives are more quiet again, I think I will read it.

Vacancy for Heracles?

“The abundance of perks, benefits and bonuses that pushed profligacy to its limits was nurtured by runaway bureaucracy that gave way to loopholes and abuse. It was a system in which phony invoices and receipts thrived next to phantom committees and working groups that never met. The environment ministry, alone, was discovered to have 31 such organisations, including a committee for a lake that had ceased to exist back in the 1930s when it dried up. When Papaconstantinou took over the finance ministry he found staff telephone bills that ran into the thousands, monthly newspaper bills of 25,000 euro and ministers claiming 18,000 euro curtain bills for their offices.
… Arcane legislation for special interest groups, including the armed forces and those who held hazardous jobs, meant that pensions could be had as early as 45. The daughters of deceased army officers could claim their father's pension for a lifetime if they remained unmarried; a hairdresser working with "dangerous" chemicals could receive pensions by the age of 50; a policeman on the beat could leave his job all expenses paid at the age of 45.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/07/greek-debt-crisis-jobs

Europe seems to be re-living an old myth!

Of course these things are real problems. I just can't help but feel very strongly that Greece, Italy and, to some extent, Spain, should not had joined the EMU. Doing so made the national leaders members of a select club in which to rub themselves but that same membership sent the economies of the respective nations surfing on the flames of hell.

If you look at Greece, and on southern Italy, what has sustained the ordinary man is a certain degree of what the Italians call "furbo", a special kind of "smartness" that is directed at ripping other people off, especially the "evil" government and common good, linked with small scale businesses operating within the local and often tourist dependent business. With the Euro prices were nivellated throughout Europe. A pizza in Greece now costs very much what a pizza costs in Sweden, with the main difference a Greek pizza is (often) made on a pre-baked bread and thus not perceived as a real pizza by someone from another part of Europe; this someone feel ripped off, and decides to spend their vacations abroad in Thailand instead - same price, despite being on the other side of the globe, and without spending your time feeling permanently hustled.

The effect is the tourist industries, which as I noted above have sustained much of the family run businesses that make these economies up, have got the floor removed from under them, fast. The ordinary man is still falling. And so does the holes in the ledgers open up, nationwide, the effects of admiration of the "furbo" mentality a national shame...

The wages of corruption are destruction.

"Gone is the fantasy that there would be a mild economic contraction this year, followed by a return to steady growth.... Greece is being asked to do what Latin America did in the 1980s. That led to a lost decade, the beneficiaries being foreign creditors... For other eurozone members, the programme prevents an immediate shock to fragile financial systems: it is overtly a rescue of Greece, but covertly a bail-out of banks."
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/de21becc-57af-11df-855b-00144feab49a.html

I agree with Busifer. The Euro experiment is a failure -- unless financiers in Brussels browbeat Greek voters into devoting 7.5% of GDP toward interest payments to foreign banks while their economy collapses around their ears. It won't fly and everyone knows it but the bureaucrats. Greece will default. The question is whether the EMU can save Portugal, Spain and Italy.

Nice article about a new European map:
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=16003661

Ha that is pretty cool

>99

Very interesting map. Worldmapper has a number of maps where countries are sized not by area, but by various economic, demographic, and political factors.

Thanks, marieke and oregon. Great maps.

I am increasingly uncomfortable with the markets. For the first time, I am seriously worrying about the debt across the western world. I can't escape the belief that the time to pay the price for overborrowing and overconsumption is coming soon. I have begun to take personal protective action, wisely or not. Only time will tell.

Well if the shit hits the fan when I'm on the other side of the pond, at least I can escape to the Alps :-D

True. You can hjide out there for the duration, but I'm not sure there is any escape for the lot of us. I'm of an apocalyptic bent. But I fear I may be right.

I think China is starting to get it that if they keep lending to the west, they may not get paid back. Fear of compromising their markets goes only so far. The west is about to lose their drug dealer. Withdrawal symptoms to follow.

> 103

I remember my mother, sewing bags for sand during the Cuba crisis in the early sixties... I remember all my fears for and my demonstrating against the neutron bombs and the nuclear missiles in the early eighties...

Last week I met a woman whose husband four years ago had a severe heart infarct. So she put an enormous effort in learning everything she could (reanimation etc.) to be of help when the heart trouble should happen again. A month ago her husband died of a cerebral infarct while she stood as helpless as four years ago.

What will undo us might come from an unexpected angle. Not the crumbling markets, but something like the dying bees. Of which we now seem to know the cause…

How I like Emily Dickinson:

Do not try to be saved -
but let Redemption find you -
as it certainly will -

Thank you for that marieke. Truly, quotes from Emily Dickinson are always most welcome!

How I wish I could be consoled by the multitudes of alternative terrors that might be visited upon us!

Haha... *famous last words* Don't worry man, everything's gonna be fine....

:-D

Point taken. Sorry. I preached.

I am hopeful that there are people around who can manage these crises that might come. Personally I am concerned, not afraid.

Honestly, in a lot of ways I would almost rather things get REALLY bad, so that we finally realize the error of our ways and try to actually fix the problems, instead of just blowing money on "the system" to delay the inevitable..

Besides, we're supposed to be meeting the Vulcans in 53 years, and we have to squeeze a nuclear war inbetween now and then. We'd better pick up the pace!!

>110 Oh no, marieke. You weren't preaching, and I liked what you said. I aspire to less worry and more acceptance of what is. I too hope for those expert crisis managers. I wish it were easier in democracies to tell people the truth and still get elected.

>111 An opinion I have shared for years when it comes to the price of oil. The higher it goes, the more incentive for sustainable alternatives.

But REALLY bad could be REALLY bad, which might be too bad!

I hope to hell the Vulcans have some good ideas....

Yeah, and the problem now though is that the oil companies are the only ones who seem to have the wherewithal to look into alternative energies; it's expensive to research and develop, and they're among the richest corporations in the world. Still, there's oil to be had, so they're in no hurry. The real impetus has to come from us, the people, or nothing's going to happen.

Also, we have to stop idealoguing the hell out of it too. It's gotten to the point where denying anything about the environment is chic; global warming is false, being a tree hugger is stupid, caring about the environment at all makes you a yuppie fool, etc. It's stupid, but this is how a lot of people think, and until we join the ranks of the civilized world where even CONSERVATIVE people realize the importance of this stuff, I'm afraid our country is going to just lag far behind.

I agree with a lot of that Feicht (though there's a lot of solar panel research by small start-ups), but I hate to have to be the one to tell you some really bad news about the rest of the world, whom we have come to count on increasingly for a measure of sanity:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/science/earth/25climate.html

In Holland we knew this would happen Stellar. Our latest Minister of Environment Jacqueline Cramer has tried to make a maximum use of the hype after the Al Gore film. We knew it was a hype, people are people alas.
Next week we have elections for Parliament. The Greens are doing rather well in the polls, but the Liberal Conservatives are doing better.

>114: NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :'-(

Man you don't know how pissed I was getting this winter when it :::::gasp:::::: snowed a few times, and everyone was saying "See? SEE??? Where's your global warming now?!?!"

Then of course, we had the warmest March in recorded history. Two years ago we got a blizzard in March, but this year you could wear shorts the whole time.

I think one of the biggest problems about the public's perception of global warming (besides all the lies they swallow just so they can be anti-liberal) is that it's popularly known as "global warming" at all, as opposed to "erratic environmental upheaval" or something. Not as catchy, but I'll be damned if it isn't more accurate. Yeah on average the world is warming up, but that doesn't mean that everywhere on the planet has a new record high every day; and since it doesn't, there are going to be jackasses who continue to rant and rave about how the whole premise is totally false, because today was 3 degrees below the record high.

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

Interestingly though, there is an article in this month's Nat Geo about how climate change has affected Greenland. Apparently nowadays it's about as warm there as it was in the Medieval Warm Period, when the Vikings settled it and were able to grow crops and stuff. There are pictures of happy shepherds and people growing cabbage for the first time ever and kids swimming in the snowmelt. It's certainly an interesting dichotomy to say the least. But try telling them the world isn't getting any warmer.

#114 - Who, I wonder, would be doing the "hyping," and what possible motive could there be?

The evil scientists? The knee-jerk planet-lovers? Someone bad.

LOL Sure, that's it.

That Mary Shelly is to blame. Scientists have had a bad rap ever since she wrote that book defaming them.

It's a little like Pascal's Dilemma:

If we don't act, and GW is incorrect, no big deal.

If we do act, and GW is right, we are better off.

If we do act, and GW is incorrect, we've taken action and developed technologies that will benefit us greatly anyway.

If we don't act and GW is correct, very bad news.

_________

If we disbelieve, we'd better be right, because the consequences may be disastrous. Believing or disbelieving is not a trivial matter here.

But, unlike Pascal's Wager, there's reason to believe that the proposition has a chance of being true.