What Are We Reading: Religion

We had such great discussions last month as a result of Citizenjoyce's TIOLI challenge that some of us are interested in a dedicated thread. So, here it is.

Thanks, Zoe. Count me in. I read all over the place in this category, and one of my goals for 2011 is to read more.

Religion is one of my 11 in 11 categories, so I'll stop by here as well.

Thanks for setting up the thread, Zoe. I thought the conversations were fascinating too.

Right now I'm reading Dakota: A Spiritual Geography by Kathleen Norris. Norris is one of my favorites.

I have a religious/spiritual category for 2011 as well. This is a category of books that I tend to start and not finish.

Currently I have begun The Jesuit Guide to (Almost) Everything by James Martin, What Paul Meant by Garry Wills and Mormon America by Richard Ostling. I really like The Jesuit Guide, but keep setting it aside. I'm not sure why.

>>5 labwriter:. I've liked everything I've read of Norris's as well. I'll have to get to Dakota: A Spiritual Geography one of these days after I've cleared the decks a little.

I do the same thing with this category, Nancy, pick them up and put them down. I usually eventually finish them, though. I've been reading the Norris book off and on since about August. One of the reasons I do that, I think, is because I like to let what I'm reading "settle" a bit--like to moodle it around in my brain--although I will admit that six months is a bit extreme.

I really love another one by Norris, in case you haven't seen it and would be interested: The Cloister Walk.

I've just begun reading 8948876::Puritanism::A Very Short Introduction by Francis J. Bremer. It was on sale shortly before Christmas from New England Historic & Genealogical Society's bookshop so I decided to order it. I had a lot of early New England ancestors. Not all were Puritans, but they certainly encountered them.

>8 thornton37814:. Hi Lori. I'll be eager to hear what you think of the Bremer book. I had loads of early New England/Virginia/Tennessee area ancestors as well (Denton and Campbell, mainly). I'm always looking for books that will help to put them in context.

Wonderful idea, Zoe. I, too, enjoyed the various threads this past month in which religion was the topic discussed. This will be a nice thread into which to pop from time to time - all year long!

One of my 11 in 11 categories this year is "Of Jewish Interest". I'll be happy to share my thoughts as I complete this category and will be on the outlook for posts by others of different religions.

How much fun this will be!!

I was just telling Jenn (nitnutt) that I picked up The Book of Mormon (out of curiosity) yesterday from a used Jewish book sale at my synagogue! I hadn't mentioned to her that I also picked up a copy of Infidel (Muslim-related theme) by Ayaan Hirsi Ali from the same book sale. Oops! Was I supposed to buy Jewish-themed books there? ;)

>10 SqueakyChu:. I read Infidel in 2010. What an amazing book! I gave it 5 stars.

I'm going to love this thread, will I be the token atheist or are there others?

I'll just bet the pulpits will be overheating with this one. Armageddon is coming to the Bible Belt: http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/02/arkansas.fish.kill/

I finished My Jesus Year, and at first I was rather put off by it. Cohen is funny, but it irks me when a member of one religion pokes fun at the tenets, membership or observances of another. Saying "My invisible friend is better than your invisible friend" seems like a meaningless game to me. Not to say there aren't plenty of things to satirize about megachurches, wrestling for Jesus, prosperity religions, and speaking in tongues, but stones and glass houses and all. Eventually he does come around to saying that the "black hole of laws", rituals and prohibitions in the Jewish religion can be seen to be just as strange, so he got back my allegiance. The crux of the book was the importance to him of family and community, and religion is the glue that hold people together. So I guess I'd say read the first half of the book for humor and the last 1/3 for meaning. As he talks about the importance to him of his grandfather I couldn't help but think of how the holocaust tore that community apart and ripped grandparents and children apart. 60 years later we're still finding the intensity of that evil.

One more thing, I saw a PBS documentary about Aimee Semple McPherson and again learned something new. I knew she was a famous evangelical and I'd heard about her strange "kidnapping" story, but I didn't realize how the fight against evolution had been so central to her ministry. The documentary states that California bureaucracy had a no hold barred campaign against her because of her push to have bibles and genesis mandated in the classroom. They thought her "backward" leanings would be bad for the state. I guess in a way Aimee won. Her followers are reveling in their power, or have been over the past decade. We'll see what the new decade does to the politics of the religious right.

I'm also an atheist, but one fascinated by (and not unfriendly to) religions. I'm starring this thread!

I received The Soul of C.S. Lewis by Jerry Root for Christmas, and I'll be reading it for one of January's TIOLI challenges.

Starred this thread to track - I don't plan my reading, but this topic can be fascinating.

Without any plans I am sure that I will read something this year that I take to be religious. I am also curious as to what other people find to be religious. I could be sympathetic to someone who posted about a book of photographs of the Grand Canyon although I would probably instead look for a nature thread to post about such a thing.

Robert

Hi Robert. You've posed an interesting question.

Publishers like to categorize these things. I pulled a few books off of my shelf, and these are the categories I found:

Beyond Theology by Alan Watts. At the top of the back of the book is the cateogry "Religion and Philosophy."

The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. "Religion"

Back to the Well: Women's Encounters with Jesus in the Gospels. "New Testament/Bible Study/Religion"

Reaching Out Without Dumbing Down: A Theology of Worship for this Urgent Time. Not categorized.

An Introduction to the Old Testament: The Canon and Christian Imagination. Not categorized, but I would probably call this "Bible Study."

Walking the Bible: A Journey by Land through the Five Books of Moses. "Religion/Travel.

Wisdom Distilled from the Daily: Living the Rule of St. Benedict Today. "Spirituality."

So for me, I guess I include in Religious categories like Religion, Religion and Philosophy, Bible Study, Spirituality--things like that. Confusing things a little bit, I think I would also include things like the history of different religions.

I'm sure people can think of others.

Just my two cents. I'm looking forward to the discussion on this thread.

5,7 (labwriter): I've read several books by Kathleen Norris, her memoirs, not her poetry. Mostly too long ago to distinguish one from another, so I mostly recall the inheritance of her grandparents's farm in South Dakota, and her stint in a monastery (what is most difficult for a monk? other monks). I recently picked up Acedia, written in response to her husband's death. Have you read any books by Nancy Mairs?

12 (Citizenjoyce): I call myself agnostic, but I'd guess many people would consider me atheist -- the definition of god has to get pretty abstract before I'll accept it. Still, I can be impressed by an approach to religion that is spiritual in the context of traditional culture.

#12 I'm also an atheist interested in learning more about religion. I've been impressed by the recent conversations about religion among the 75ers which have been very respectful of different views.

In general, unless I've been around people who believe as I do I steer clear of discussions about religion. For me, it brings back bad memories of my father (also an atheist) arguing with people about whether god existed or not and trying to prove he was right. In retrospect, I think it was more the insistence that someone had to be right that was so oft-putting.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to following this thread.

I'm definitely agnostic but interested. I spent a year and a half reading the first three volumes of John P. Meier's A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the historical Jesus ( a chapter a night several nights a week-type of pace), and the fourth volume is out, although I haven't invested in it yet. The books I have sitting in my TBR pile to read are:

The Case for God by Karen Armstrong
The Bible: a biography by Karen Armstrong
The Closing of the Western Mind by Charles Freeman
The Beginning of all Things: Science and Religion by Hans Küng
The Essential Tillich by Paul Tillich (edited by F. Forrester Church)

I've wishlisted some of the Norris books after reading reviews of them here on LT in the group, so imagine I'll get to at least one of them and to my wish-listed Pagels, Adam, Eve, and the Serpent eventually.

I have Elaine Pagels' Adam, Eve and the Serpent and The Origin of Satan, maybe I'll get to them this year along with more Karen Armstrong.

> 12

Re:My Jesus Year:

but it irks me when a member of one religion pokes fun at the tenets, membership or observances of another

This is truly the downfall of this book and is also mentioned by other reviewers. Personally, I think the author was making attempts to be funny but the humor came across often as negativity and condescension.

Another thought: I wonder if Cohen wrote the book this way because he thought his readership would only be Jewish? If so, then his poor attempts at humor should be rewritten so they are not off-putting to Jews and others who would be embarrassed to read such put-downs in an otherwise interesting book.

I seriously do not think he meant it the way it came across because, at several places in the book, he said he does not want to degrade other religions (yet his humor does so anyway).

Starting with the wrestlers for Jesus I think he made it clear that differing religions have practices that seem strange to each other, but that does not make them wrong or ineffective. He's a humorous guy, and sometimes humor can seem like mockery. I thought he was quite explicit by the end of the book that he wasn't mocking, one just had to continue reading to the end. I wonder if some of the religious people he discussed would continue that reading. I know my sister wouldn't have. She's a Pentecostal Christian and humor doesn't have much a part in her religious observation. She puts up with me because I'm her sister, but I don't think she could take it in a book. So, it's not a book for everyone. What book is?

I too, am an atheist interested in religion from the historical standpoint. To my way of thinking, if you are at all interested in history, you've got to be interested in religion, too, for it plays such a huge part in history.

> 23

If writing a book, though, one has to be careful not to offend. Perhaps a good editor could do something with the parts that seem to mock others. I don't think this book will get wide circulation just because of this defect.

If I found a book offensive, I'd have a hard time finishing it (if I even did). I was once truly offended by a book about politics. I did finish it, but by that time, I felt like tossing it into the compost heap. I didn't, though, because it was a library book. I finished it only because I was astounded at the "dirt" conjured up by the author with nothing good to say to balance out the negatives.

It must have been amazement that pushed me through that book. I will never do that again. I have no time to waste on authors who write with disdain about people who, like everyone else, do good as well as questionable deeds. This eliminates reading about the Hitlers of the world entirely. I have no desire to read about them - even from the historical perspective. It's just too painful.

>18 qebo:. (qebo) No, I haven't read Nancy Mairs. I see she has a website, though, so I will check her out. Thanks.

Last night I finished Dakota by Kathleen Norris. One of the aspects of her writing and life that draws me in is her encounters with the Benedictines who inhabit a monastery not far from where she lives in North/South Dakota (I think her town of Lemmon is right on the border, maybe "officially" in South Dakota). When I became disaffected from my Episcopal Church five or so years ago (the politics of mainline religion--don't get me started), I turned to the writings of the Benedictines. Another woman who writes interestingly about the B's is Joan Chittister, Wisdom Distilled from the Daily. Hers is a beautiful book that's gotten me through some tough times.

>25 SqueakyChu: Interesting thought Madeline.

I think there is only so much evil you can read about, although a little can be instructive depending on the context. About 10 years ago, I read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. It was both terrible and good to have read. I never want to read it again.

I know someone who spent about a year studying the Hitlers and Stalins, etc. and actually became physically ill. I can believe it.

ETA: I don't know that my comment has much to do with religion...sorry.

My next read in this category is A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis. This is a very pithy book, only 89 small pages with lots of space between paragraph thoughts.

In the interest of continuing to "define" the Religion category, I'll note that the publisher's categorization for this book on the back cover is "Inspiration." I think this sort of thing fits well into our category here.

Becky, I really like Joan Chittister's writing as well. I first encountered her on Bill Moyer's show on PBS (See here) and immediately got one of her books. It was Called to Question: A Spiritual Memoir. I also read In Search of Belief, a parsing of the Apostle's Creed. Between Chittister and John Shelby Spong, I could actually call myself a Christian.

>29 ronincats:. Roni, those are three Chittisters that I haven't read. Thanks for posting the titles. What have you read of Spong? I have Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, and I enjoyed reading his point of view even though, as I reall, I didn't agree with too much of what he had to say. Although that's a very general statement, and probably before I say something like that I ought to look at the book again. I know that he makes some people very angry with his views, but I found him interesting.

A Grief Observed definitely belongs here. Let us know what you think of it!

A Grief Observed and Surprised by Joy are my favorites of Lewis' books.

I also have Rescuing the Bible, and have The Sins of Scripture: Exposing the Bible's Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love. I do enjoy reading his point of view as well.

I'm a little surprised to see that so far most of the books listed here are about Christianity. So just for fun I'm going to list a few I've read that fall elsewhere.

Meeting Faith: the forest journals of a black Buddhist nun by Faith Adiele

The faith club: a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew (authors last names are Idilby, Oliver, Warner)

more later . . .

American Islam: Growing up Muslim in America by Richard Wormser

Children of dust: a memoir of Pakistan by Ali Eteraz

The world's religions by Huston Smith

Just popping in to say I just read Chosen Ones the still (fairly) new Children's fantasy novel by Alister McGrath

I wasn't so pleased with it - was a bit more "spelled out" than I'd care for in fantasy - you can tell it was greatly influenced by Lewis, but it was almost too specified to be what I'd consider mythopoetical literature.

Anyway - wasn't entirely sure if religious fiction was being discussed over here, but given that McGrath is better known as a theologian, I thought some of you might be interested. I really had high hopes when I first saw this mentioned when it was coming out, and perhaps that is why I was so disappointed in it.

on other topics:
When I get home I've got to finish The Cloister Walk - it wasn't living up to my hopes back in Nov/Dec, but I'm hoping I was just too busy and tired to give it my full attention because I love spiritual memoirs and had so looked forward to it because of it being arranged by the liturgical year (Girl Meets God is one of my all time favorite books, and since it's arranged the same way (only adding in the Jewish holidays as well) I figured maybe that was a good sign)

Yes, A Grief Observed is definitely one of my favorites.

At the moment I'm reading Beyond Personality by C. S. Lewis and Rumours of Another World by Philip Yancey.

I like to read books that put religion in social or historical context, so I'll be popping by this thread throughout the year.

#34 - Great list.

A couple of those are on my list for this year. Especially The faith club: a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew and Children of dust: a memoir of Pakistan. I got interested in the Eteraz book after reading Mornings in Jenin earlier last year.

I'm going to give Walking the Bible a try, by Bruce Feiler. If I don't like it, I'm not going to read to the bitter end (a problem I have with myself of not abandoning books when I ought to). The subtitle to this book is A Journey by Land Through the Five Books of Moses. I'd love to hear from anyone else who's read this.

One of the LT reviews said something like, "You'd have to know something about the Bible to appreciate this book." Well, duh. {grin}

# 39 If it's a dull book it's going to be a long journey through Leviticus. Put I admire the stamina. We are on the same page.

Puritanism: A Very Short Introduction by Francis J. Bremer. Author Francis J. Bremer delivers exactly what is promised by the title of this book -- a brief introduction on Puritan thought. There are a few quotes, mostly in shaded sidebars. While one could tell the author was familiar with primary source writings, she utilized quite a few secondary sources in this overview of the Puritan movement. There are no footnotes, but there are bibliographies which accompany each chapter, leading the reader who wishes to explore the topics more fully to good sources. We learn a bit about the history and theology of the movement, how the Puritan interacted in society, and about personal lifestyle. The weakness of the book is in describing the decline of Puritanism and describing the genealogy of present-day groups claiming some level of origin with the Puritans. This book, however, is well-suited to persons who just want an introductory level of knowledge about Puritan history and theology. 3.5 stars.

Not that this will be a problem here, but if you can't think of anything to read in this category, you can check out last years World Religions challenge for ideas.

>40 ctpress:. Hilarious. I'll let you know.

>42 markon:. Thanks so much for your lists. Ideas--that's what I love about LT.

#39 - I "read" his other book thanks to getting the audio book for cheap (at least I think it was Abraham: A Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths and not Walking the Bible and it was really enjoyable - not anything I'd re-read but quite enjoyable none the less...

#38: It was very interesting to see how the author's changing socioeconomic situation affected his understanding and practice of Islam in Children of dust.

>44 YoungGeekyLibrarian:. So far I'm finding in Walking the Bible that Feiler is very engaging--very readable. I have a feeling that it's going to be more about the story of his travels than it is about the first five Books of the Bible, but that's OK. I've got plenty of other books that are heavy on Bible study/exegesis.

>>46 labwriter:. I own Walking the Bible and am glad to hear that it is readable.

I'm flying through Marriage and Other Acts of Charity by Kate Braestrup. She is a Unitarian Universalist minister, but although she is somewhat inclusive, I'd say she falls on the Christian side of that religious tradition. This is called a memoir and there is personal information included, but I'd say it is more a series of stories, observations, teachings or even sermons about the nature of love. This is the second book of hers I've read and I find her wonderful.

When I get around to it, I'll be posting about Walking the Bible on my own thread, here if anyone is interested. I like to post as I read when I come across a book that I really like, vs writing a summary review at the end. Maybe it's just the mood I'm in, but I am absolutely loving this book. He's traveling with a fascinating man from the region, and they do a question/answer thing that seems brilliant. You know how it is when sometimes you come across a book at just the right time--that's what this feels like.

# 48: I will follow your thread. I've just skimmed a few pages of the book on Amazon and it looks very interesting. Was on "Moses-mountain" in Sinai two years ago, and it's a special feeling to walk around in an area Moses could have been walking in an having conversations with God.

I was on "Moses-mountain" myself, but back in 1974.

What I remember most about that trip was, about half-way up, camping near Santa Katarina (a monastery) and looking at the sky. Never before or since have I ever seen that many stars at once.

When we crested (was is presumed to be) Mt. Sinai, we watched as the sun rose. I'm not sure I was thinking of God or Moses. Mostly I was aware of the beauty of the natural geography surrounding me. I always feel most spiritual when I feel that close connection to nature itself. The ocean almost always does that for me as well.

When I was in Rome and Pompeii, walking where people walked 2 millennia ago I was inspired, I guess, by the continuity of humanity - that we lead beautiful and trivial lives, and just keep doing it. Ancient history can be overwhelmingly affective.

#47 - another one for mt. tbr.

#48 - I'll be watching for these posts. I've been curious about this book, and the Q&A approach sounds intriguing.

Meanwhile, i finished a novel last night, the monk downstairs that I liked a lot. I,ll post some commentary & quotes about silence & lov & god when I'M in front of a real computer.

#46 On the subject of Bruce Feiler, I read America's Prophet last year and thought it was interesting. It was an easy read. I have had Walking the Bible on my list, so I'll be interested to hear your final thoughts.

Here is a quote from the Kate Braestrup book that I posted on my thread and thought I'd go ahead and post here as well. As I said she's Unitarian but leans Christian. I thought this was lovely.

God is love, John's Gospel tells us. That's a whole theology in three words. The practical application... is nearly as simple. Be as loving as you can, as often as you can, for as many people as you can for as long as you live. Why should you do this? Because.

Just finished The Cloister Walk

That's a beautiful quote, Nancy.

>56 YoungGeekyLibrarian:. The Cloister Walk saved my life once when I was going through a difficult time with my mother and a string of medical emergencies. It's a beautiful book.

I'm reporting in on the progress I'm making on Walking the Bible. This is a book that can be read slowly, picked up to read a chapter now and then, which is how I'm reading it. Feiler does a great job of painting a picture of the lands of the Bible--what it must have been like long ago, what it's like now. His questions are interesting and also thought provoking, like this one:

"should I take from {this} a different lesson: that the Bible is somehow deeper than faith or science? That it's something different, a set of stories that transcends most traditional ways of thinking, that somehow finds a way to have something to say about bedouin shepherds, Irish farmers, Israeli archaeologists. Indeed, as I was coming to believe, the power of the Bible to reinvent itself, to withstand the often withering glare of skepticism, to withstand even the sometimes crushing weight of belief, was a beautiful thing, a thing to admire."

My one quibble with Feiler is with his goofy "food" images, as when he likens a camel's hump to looking like a marshmallow topped with toasted coconut--?? Every time he reaches for a simile, he pulls one out of the food bag, and they're often so ridiculous that they break into my enjoyment of the book. However, it's a quibble and not a major problem since he doesn't do it all that often. I'm about 2/3 through the book, and now when I run into yet another food metaphor, it's almost amusing.

I continue to make good progress in the Feiler book, Walking the Bible. My favorite part has been his discussion of the desert, which reminded me of a book on my shelf that I've been wanting to read--The Solace of Fierce Landscapes: Exploring Desert and Mountain Spirituality, by Belden C. Lane. So that will be my next book in this category.

I hope some of the rest of you are having some good reads.

Just finished skimming The Year of Living Biblically. I wasn't fond of it. Too much justification of obsessive compulsive behavior for my taste.

Lots of great ideas here. Last year, one of my 1010 challenge categories was God and Religion but I didn't carry that category forward to the 11 in 11 challenge.

One favorite was Sundays in America, in which the author, Suzanne Strempek Shea visits a different church each Sunday over the course of a year.

I'm reading a novel about a young man with asperger's syndrome, Marcelo In the Real World and was surprised to find that it has a good deal about religion in it. In describing AS to a friend he says that people with AS usually have an area of special interest and his is god. He attends the Catholic church with his father, says the rosary to calm himself, but visits with a rabbi every couple of weeks to discuss topics of religion. In discussing genesis she comes up with an interesting interpretation of why Adam and Eve were ashamed of their nudity after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and compared it to the killing of Able by Cain. It was so sophisticated, I could see why people would find religious study interesting.

I found this on another thread, Karen Armstrong's speech to the TED conference to establish her Charter for Compassion:

http://www.ted.com/talks/karen_armstrong_makes_her_ted_prize_wish_the_charter_fo...

I was interested to hear her characterize Western European secularism as quaintly antiquated. I guess I'm just an old fashioned girl after all.

I just started The Cloister Walk by Kathleen Norris yesterday.

> 62

Joyce, have you read Dancing with Max? That's a book I read for Early Reviewer which was a book about a boy with autism. He eventually found a compfrotable niche in dealing with people (very hard for those with autism) within the church. His role became that of a "greeter" to the church-going public and an assistant in the closing of the church after services. Although I found this book too religiously preachy, I was immensely interested in learning more about autism. The bottom line is, well, religion can be a comfort in more ways than we might simply assume.

I haven't read Dancing with Max, but I too find the topic of autism fascinating. Religion can offer comfort and guiding principles. I respect Karen Armstrong very much and am sure I would love talking with the rabbi in Marcelo in the Real World. It's just that whole believing part that I find fantastic, of course, Armstrong doesn't think belief need have anything to do with it.

Armstrong doesn't think belief need have anything to do with it

I, too, think believing (or even non-believing) is only a small part of religion. To me, religion is only one part of the spiritual world, the part of our existence of which we have no certain grasp. I really do need to read some books by Karen Armstrong, I think.
I'm heading over to wishlist Marcelo in the Real World now while I'm still thinking about it.

Quite right, the idea of belief as intellectually agreeing with something is a very modern way of looking at is, as she illustrates richly in the TED video above--a great video, btw. Go look at it if you haven't.

I finished Marcelo In the Real World which uses the vehicle of the education of a young man with asperger's syndrome to discuss how we should live in the world. Should we find what gives us serenity and joy or is it better to expose ourselves to pain? Through Marcelo's discussion with his rabbi the idea is proposed that the only belief that is necessary is the belief that one should seek to do the "right" thing. Some atheists think that without god to reward or punish there is no right or wrong. Whatever you can get away with, you can do. I think that doing what is right is evolutionarily helpful, one need look no further than the current economic disaster to see that the concept of might makes right is sometimes not helpful even for the mighty. It's a very simple book, which I think is the reason the the asperger's angle was used, but it packs a wallop.

>69 Citizenjoyce:. There's plenty of pain in the world; some can't be avoided, but I guess some can. Two years ago, my neighbor across the street died of ALS. By the time she died, the only thing she could move was her left thumb. It was interesting to see how everyone in the neighborhood responded. Some were very involved; some chose not to involve themselves at all. What was the "right" thing? I don't think there was only one answer to that question, and I don't think the answer to that question came down to who was "religious" or who was not. I became very involved with helping her, and I think for a year or so after her death I suffered the consequences--almost a post-traumatic stress kind of thing. Yet I would do the same thing over again. I didn't do it because of any particular feeling-like-I-had-to religious thing, but simply because, for me, it felt like the right thing to do. I'm not sure any of us, either the group of us who helped or the group who didn't, felt any particular "serenity" or "joy" about any of it.

>>70 labwriter:

What was the "right" thing? I don't think there was only one answer to that question

Hmm. I too helped someone die an awful death - a small boy with Downs Syndrome and leukemia who had Stage IV Graft vs Host Disease after a stem cell transplant. Ben was the son of a high school friend. I too ended up with something resembling PTSD. Nonetheless I do think there was only one "right" thing to do. Any other response would have been cowardly and selfish. Perhaps if Meg and Ben had more helpers I'd feel differently, but I think helping people in our path that are in desperate (even if quiet) need isn't a choice, is the right thing to do and only has one appropriate response. I resent and will continue to resent the people in her life that just couldn't "bear to see him in that condition".

That being said, it sure didn't result in "serenity" or "joy" for me either and, in fact, has made the last bare bones bits of my religious faith pretty much disappear. Although I'm struggling through that with hope of a stronger, better, deeper religious self emerging.

/soapbox

I did not pass Go. I did not collect $200. I did not walk. I ran to the library and got Marcelo in the Real World. I have to stop myself from dropping everything else and reading it immediately.

>71 nancyewhite:. Nancy, I understand what you mean. The sort of experience that you describe is very, very tough. But since the ALS thing happened with my neighbor, I've had a very humbling experience with my own mother and with people judging me for what I did or didn't do for her. So from that experience, I've sort of been able to see the other side of things with my neighbors. We do what we can in this world--not all of us, but I think most of us do. And in some instances, it's simply necessary that we protect ourselves, regardless of what others might think.

That's kind of the position I'm in. After 21 years of nursing and helping care for 3 of my family members while they were dying, my life is very serene now. I feel grateful every day for my backyard birds and my dogs and the time I have with my family. I purposely am not exposing myself to pain. Objectively I don't find fault with this decision, but in a moral sense, I do see it as rather a waste of my humanity. Maybe a few more books like Marcelo will get me back into the real world. There's always the tension between protecting and exposing ourselves. These are not easy decisions.

I think caring for/protecting yourself after prolonged caring for others is a necessary & healthy response. When you've given a lot over a long period of time, it's important to replenish those resources. The image of a well comes to mind - when a lot of water is removed, it's sometimes necessary to wait for the well to refill before withdrawing more.

I do find the discussions on this thread very powerful - thank you for reading such interesting works and sharing so openly from your own experiences of life, pain, meaning, etc.

The struggle to get the right balance between caring for others and looking after yourself is a familiar one, and one that it seems hard often to get right. The well image is a good one.

I'm into one of those spells where I have about five books going, none even close to being finished. But I've been thinking about the next book I want to read in this category, when I finally do get some of the others read. I think it's going to be Life After Death: The Evidence by Dinesh D'Souza. Has anyone else read this one or other books by him? One of the blurbs on the back says that he writes both for the believer and the honest seeker.

I have been wanting to read that book.
--BJ

Wow, where's everyone gone?

Anywho, I'm still reading Dinesh D'Souza's Life After Death: The Evidence. Personally, I'm a believer, but I find this book compelling because it comes at the subject of "belief" a bit differently than most books of this stripe. D'Souza works his way through philosophy, physics, and brain science in this book. It's a compelling read.

# 78 - It sounds very interesting. A staggering endeavour - hope it's not too technical - I must make a note of that. I haven't heard of the writer before.

I'm reading about when there's no proof of God before death. Well, sort of. The book is called The Hidden Face of God by Michael Card. The subtitle is: Finding the Missing Door to the Father Through Lament.

It's 41 two-three pages meditations on different aspects of the lamentations in the Bible. I thought it could be a good book to use during the upcoming Lent - as the last sections of the book is called The Man of Sorrows and deals with the last days of our Lord. Read one chapter a day.

Michael Card is also a singer/songwriter and he has such a gift with words - beautiful well crafted sentences - I have underlinings on nearly every page in the book. Here's one quote on the story of Lazarus:

When Jesus saw Lazarus' sister Mary in tears, initially He could do nothing but weep with her. He did not explain away the pain, did not say He had come with the answer, that He would fix everything; no, He bowed His head and allowed the tears to flow. It was not about providing answers or fixing a problem, it was about entering fully and redemptively into her suffering.

#79.

When Jesus saw Lazarus' sister Mary in tears, initially He could do nothing but weep with her. He did not explain away the pain, did not say He had come with the answer, that He would fix everything; no, He bowed His head and allowed the tears to flow. It was not about providing answers or fixing a problem, it was about entering fully and redemptively into her suffering.

Lovely. Thank you I needed that.

# 80 - you're welcome. I also needed those words today.

#78 - philosophy, physics, and brain science? Sounds fascinating. Have you read anything else by him? Sounds like his politics are conservative on Wikepedia. My library has several of his books, so I may check him out.

Thanks for the citation, Markon. D'Souza says about American slavery that African Americans were "treated like property, that is to say, pretty well.". That does seem to be the conservative's take on slavery. Life is to full of reasonable ideas for me to allow this guy into my brain.

Yes, D'Souza is a conservative.

>83 Citizenjoyce:. A little context for that quotation might make for a more useful conversation, unless your aim is simply to be provocative. You may disagree with a person's assumptions or arguments, but intellectual honesty demands more than simply cherrypicking quotations from someone's work.

Your quotation is taken from D'Souza's 700-page book, The End of Racism. The subtitle is, Principles for a Multiracial Society. This is a 1995 book which suggests that government should discontinue legislating issues based on race. I have not read the book, but I just spent about 20 minutes online reading about the book, and that's enough for me to be able to say that your selective quotation is unfair to D'Souza's argument.

I don't plan to read his books after perusing Wikepedia:


D'Souza has often stated his belief that idealizing the rebellion against slavery is a source of disability among some African Americans. In his book The End of Racism he asserted that the "American slave was treated like property, which is to say, pretty well."11 He speculates that slaves, to preserve a sense of dignity, in the circumstances of slavery, would by nature tend to be defiant. This defiance would become the central heroic reference for African-American slaves, restoring a degree of pride and dignity to all. But, he continues, the price of this would be the habitually ingrained attitude of defiance that is ultimately self-destructive. He extends his belief that these self-destructive habits still have a legacy today. D'Souza contends that the degree to which many slave descendants suffer from social and self-esteem issues is due to this concept.citation needed

He has attributed many modern social problems to what he calls the "cultural left". In his recent book The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11, he wrote that:

The cultural left in this country is responsible for causing 9/11 ... the cultural left and its allies in Congress, the media, Hollywood, the non-profit sector and the universities are the primary cause of the volcano of anger toward America that is erupting from the Islamic world.

and this gem which deliberately mistates the goals of feminism:
D'Souza has also criticised aspects of feminism in Letters to a Young Conservative, writing that:

The feminist error was to embrace the value of the workplace as greater than the value of the home. Feminism has endorsed the public sphere as inherently more constitutive of women’s worth than the private sphere. Feminists have established as their criterion of success and self-worth an equal representation with men at the top of the career ladder. The consequence of this feminist scale of values is a terrible and unjust devaluation of women who work at home.

>83 Citizenjoyce:, 85. Yes, Wikipedia, "the source of all knowledge" (TM). That's sarcasm, just so you're sure.

It has to be obvious to anyone here that I'm one of those rare birds at LT and especially in the 75 group, a "conservative." What I find disappointing and rather mysterious is the silence on this thread after your post:

D'Souza says about American slavery that African Americans were "treated like property, that is to say, pretty well.". That does seem to be the conservative's take on slavery(my emphasis).

I don't know how to interpret the silence other than to hear it as apparent approval for your point of view, that "consevatives," myself included, apparently have an approving "take" on slavery. That you would say so is not that big a deal to me. That others here would silently let the comment stand is discouraging--especially on a thread where the invited discussion is "religion."

I don't know what you're looking for here, Citizenjoyce, but it would seem what you want is an echochamber for what's in your own head. Congratulations. You seem to have found just that. I'm done.

My apologies for not jumping in sooner. I haven't been following this thread as closely others. I consider myself a conservative, but haven't read much of D'Souza's work. My thoughts on the conversation so far on this subject:

- When this thread was originally set up, I was skeptical. Discussions about religion seem to degenerate into hot emotions pretty quickly. Politics is even worse. I want folks to be able to share books they're reading on these subjects, but I don't think anyone wants these discussions to turn into the Pro and Con group. If we need a place to have these discussions, I'll make one.

- We should be very careful to not attribute opinions of some to all. I also read Joyce's comment as a judgment on my opinions, when in fact, I don't agree with D'Souza as quoted here. (Note: not having read the book it's taken from I'm refraining from commenting on his work as a whole.) Nor do my friends and acquaintances that I know are conservative.

- We should also be very careful not to assume intent when we read something another has written. The biggest problem I deal with daily in leading a team of highly educated engineers and scientists is the human tendency to read into others' motives.

- Finally, we should not assume that silence is approval of something someone has written on these threads. In my case, I hadn't checked the thread in a few days. Some may have decided not to get into an argument about this subject at this time - and that's ok. Others may have preferred to address the issue through private messages instead of further discussion here. That's ok too.

I haven't weighed in precisely because I have zero interest in a conversation as polarized as this one promises to become (or perhaps already has become).

I am a super duper lefty radical Liberal nutjob that adores my more conservative LT 75er friends (of which I think there are more than you seem to), relishes the opportunity to engage in meaningful discussion with people that think differently than I do and has literally no desire to argue politics with them. I love that we are kind and decent to one another here and that we find ways of discussing books that may be emotionally challenging. I think that makes us rare and precious indeed.

I agree w/ Jim, if there needs to be a Pro/Con thread it should be separate than this one. I was so pleased when this thread started because open, generous and kind-hearted dialogue among different people from different cultural perspectives about religion is so rare. I hope it continues to be as interesting and stimulating as it has been thus far without ever becoming political or divisive.

I find the quote Joyce provided about feminism to be a punch in the gut, but I don't want to talk about that with you because a. I don't want to argue about politics here and b. it has nothing to do with religious books which is what this thread is meant to be about. So my silence about what conservatives may or may not think about slavery should be interpreted as one of the options Jim mentions above - I've 'decided not to get into an argument about this subject at this time'.

I also think assuming certain intentions is very, very risky and particularly in a thread like this that discusses topics that are fraught with potential pitfalls. If we are going to assume intent, let's pledge to assume all of us here intend to be interacting from a place of generosity rather than suspicion or desire to inflict pain or win points.

I hope that you will continue to show up for the wild and wonderful conversation.

>83 Citizenjoyce:, 85. Yes, Wikipedia, "the source of all knowledge" (TM). That's sarcasm, just so you're sure.

I'm confused. So if something is quoted in an article from Wikipedia, it's automatically not true? How about if it's cited?

Ohh. I can't wait to read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/books/review/Bynum-t.html?ref=review

I love good religious memoir.

I was surprised to find that the author of that article, Nancy, was the woman who wrote Ms. Hempel Chronicles. It seems miles away from that book.

As for D'Souza, I too don't want this site to become a political discussion, though religion and politics are so intertwined it's hard to separate them. I was merely saying that after reading quotes from his work I don't want to take any moral guidance from him. Alas I have heard and read many conservatives, and more fundamentalist religious people, making he same assertions. Not all conservatives would agree with him, I hope.

I just finished reading 25 Most Treasured Gospel Hymn Stories by Kenneth Osbeck. I had never really thought that much about the origins or writers of hymns, and it was interesting to read a little background about each of these hymns and also to find out a bit about some of the people who wrote them. Many of the hymn writers were extremely prolific, and many said the words or music came to them fairly suddenly while going through some moving experience.

I just found this thread. I'm sorry to see that it has gone silent since February. It would appear that one of the most thoughtul, respectful and invigorating discussions of religion from varied points of view that I've seen in a long time got derailed by side discussions not even about religion. Go figure. It's a shame, as I had a book I just read that I was going to post about here.

Post anyway! Let's see if we can revive the thread.

#93 tymfos, I haven't said anything on this thread yet - bad lurker, bad!! - but I would love to see it get revived. And then I might get even around to reading a book on religion.

Actually, I kind of lost the thread. I've read several books lately that fit the category. I read I Am Hutterite by Mary-Ann Kirkby back in late February. In March I read, He's Been Faithful by Carol Cymbala (of the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir) and Thou Shalt Not Kill which is a collection of short stories edited by Anne Perry, all of which are inspired by the Bible. This month I've read Radical: Taking Back Your Faith From the American Dream by David Platt and Christ in the Passover by Ceil & Moishe Rosen. You'll find reviews of all of them on my thread: http://www.librarything.com/topic/105590.

Well, I'll do my share in the revival. I am reading Relativism by Francis Beckwith. Actually the title is "Relativism: Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air" but the touchstones could only handle Relativism. This book provides a succinct analysis and critique of the popular position of postmodern relativism, subjectivism and tolerance. It criticizes the supremacy that tolerance has taken in society, the idea that "tolerance has become so important that no exception is tolerated." So far, I am learning a lot from it, but I read this type of book very slowly so I can think about the ideas.

I am dipping into The Perennial Philosophy and The Oxford Handbook of Systematic Theology now. The former has some new age silliness, despite having been written and assembled in the 1940's, to be read around, but it is a serious assembly of what is transcendent and holy. The latter is totally Christian, and that Christianity is uncompromisingly trinitarian apparently, but the issues of faith from the little I've read are translatable to other modes of faith.

I will allow myself a long time to read both of these, and other books will be primary as I go through them.

Robert.

Maybe I misconstrued why this thread went quiet.

OK, I guess it's "revival" time! ;)

I just read a book about the spiritual lives of children with disabilities: God Plays Piano, Too by Brett Webb-Mitchell. I posted about it on the Autism Awaremess Month thread (several of the children in the book had autism) but I thought it was worth a post in a religious-themed thread, too. It's about how, all too often, people underestimate the capacity "special" kids have for spirituality and faith. It gives a sense of how to engage kids with developmental, emotional, mental, or behavioral disabilities more fully in the life of the religious community. It's focused on the Judeo-Christian tradition; there's really no look at any other world religions or "alternative" spiritualities.

Terri, God plays piano, too sounds like an interesting book. I wonder if my church has a copy . . .

Thanks for getting the ball rolling again.

I'm very interested in God Plays Piano, Too. I've never forgotten a TV story about a nonverbal child who communicated using a board and one of his earliest sentences once he began using it was, "I hear God's finest whispers in my mind". I was blown away and, I suppose, taught a strong lesson that all of us have spiritual lives no matter what our bodies or brains 'look' like.

My co-worker was rather appalled recently at the way the Sunday School teacher treated an autistic young man who was stimming in her class. Perhaps I'll donate this book to that church after I'm done with it.

My recent religious read was more sociological than
theological or inspirational. It was Quiverfull which was a decidedly feminist yet respectful examination of women in the Christian patriarchal movement. I found it interesting and somewhat chilling.

I have Quiverfull on my wish list. I've read a bit about the movement and agree, chilling is an apt word.

Re. the LT reviews of Quiverfull: you know, if Jesus had a family, I feel like he might have fetched his own slippers instead of demanding his daughters do it. I'm sure he would have appreciated it as a loving gesture, but I don't see him mandating it as his fatherly right.

Cynara - ha ha!

Nancywhite - I read Quiverfull late last year and I agree it was respectful. She really let the people she was writing about speak for themselves.

>>104 Nickelini:. Nickelini - I have you noted as the LT reader who inspired me to pick this one up. So thanks a bunch because I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

#105 - :--)

I'm glad it worked out for you. I always feel bad when I recommend a book that someone then reads and thinks is a waste of time.

I haven't had a chance to actually read any of the books discussed here, but I have picked up a few to read through this summer.

#99
I am adding God Plays Piano, Too to the TBR - I have had some of my most deeply spiritual experiences with children/people with disabilities. I have little experience outside of Judeo-Christian philosophy in terms of how other religious groups view people with disabilities. I would be interested to learn.

Belatedly catching up on this thread, and wishing I were better at making time in my working life to read more of the many books about religion that I own!

The review and discussion of God Plays Piano, Too made me think of one of my tutors when I was doing my theology degree: Frances M Young, a New Testament and Patristics scholar who was then head of the Theology Faculty in Birmingham UK, and who is also mother of a severely disabled son. That latter fact had profoundly challenged and influenced her faith and her theology, and this is reflected in her teaching and her writing. One book of hers which explores this is Face to Face - subtitled a narrative essay in the theology of suffering. I've read bits of that years ago. I see she has a more recent book, Brokenness and Blessing, which also looks interesting if quite a challenging read (according to the one review here on LT).

I don't have a copy of either of those, but I did receive for Christmas a book which sounds as if it is on a similar theme: Vulnerable Communion. I'll try to read this soon, perhaps as part of my own TIOLI non-fiction challenge for June, and will report back here if I do.

Just reviewed Called Out of Darkness: A Spiritual Confession by Anne Rice on my thread (and I actually wrote a long review for once! not making guarantees of how good, but I guess I'm learning - that or I just had more thoughts about this one than some of the other books I've read this year)

After a great discussion about 'good' religious books on a 75er thread, I am about to start At Home in Mitford by Jan Karon. I always thought it would be saccharine and avoided it, but I've been convinced to at least give it a try.

>>110 YoungGeekyLibrarian:. I added Called Out of Darkness to my Wishlist. I follow Anne Rice on Facebook and find her to be very sincere in her beliefs and heartfelt critiques of organized religion. I don't know how I missed this memoir.

I hope you enjoy At Home at Mitford. I'm not Christian and loved it. I didn't think it was saccharine at all.

Could you post a link to the discussion? I'd like to read it and don't recall seeing it.

Here is more or less the beginning of the conversation and it meanders through for quite a while. There are two different posts with lists of books, I think.

The Friendship of Women: The Hidden Tradition of the Bible by Joan Chittister (89 pp.)

This came in the mail this morning via PaperBackSwap. I have enjoyed Chittister's books before, having read both Called to Question and In Search of Belief. This slim book is almost a series of meditations on the qualities of friendship among women, using 12 Biblical women to represent the qualities she describes but with many, many other quotations from many sources about friendship, e.g. "My friends are my estate." Emily Dickinson. A very quick read, but a perfect gift for a friend who is retiring next week!

#113 Nancy, thank you for the link to that thread and discussion of 'Christian Fiction' vs good religious (fiction) books, which was very helpful. I've read very very little of the former (and am not encouraged to try more) but a lot of good literature by writers who take faith and religion seriously and reflect that in their writing in a variety of ways - the book lists on there mention some of my favourites and suggest a few more to look out for which is great.

I think there's also a third group of Christian fiction though - that that doesn't shove evangelism too far down anyone's throat (though not really appealing to non-Christians), and isn't THAT poorly written, but would be what I consider "fluff" if that makes any sense.

(I grew up reading Robin Jones Gunn's teen series (books 1 of two of them currently available as ebooks on ER which strikes me as funny) - and pretty much I continue to read anything she writes even though its not particularly deep - but its decent enough, and I care about her characters because they're all interconnected, even with her adult "Sisterchicks" series- so I have to read to find out what I might find out about "my people" lol But would I pick up her stuff today if I hadn't spent so many years reading it? I don't know...)

#116 I'm not sure I know anything from that third group, though I can see that it ought to be possible for it to exist - ie fiction written by Christian authors for a Christian market, that is reasonably well written. The only thing I can think of that I've come across would be an author like Adrian Plass, whose books are a gentle satire of the absurdities of some kinds of Christian thinking.

#117 it depends on your definition of well-written too, and I'll admit while I love the really well written stuff, I'm not particularly snobby about writing - I like what I like and I don't necessarily think tons about the actual writing... (Thus my liking Robin Jones Gunn for her characters, and because those characters were part of my life growing up)

I happen to think Michael Phillips books were well written (and not fluff either - at least not his more recent stuff) - I LOVED The Secrets of the Rose series) but again - most of that I read in elementary school/middle school/high school/college and to re-read it now doesn't help to actually figure out how good it is. (I haven't read his newest stuff because I just generally don't care for Civil War stuff)

I've just begun Inside Scientology which is a new history of the movement by Janet Reitman. I believe it is the first book written by someone who neither has an axe to grind nor is an adherent. It is interesting but even with its somewhat objective tone, this looks like very flaky stuff with a very flaky leader.