The Pimpers and the Pimped, VII
This is a continuation of the topic The Pimpers and the Pimped, VI.
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1anna_in_pdx
Hello everyone, we need a new "pimping" thread.
Also, I have a new review of a book called King of the Mountains that was written by a friend of mine. It's electronic-only, self-published, and pretty short. But, it's a fascinating story and I am so excited my friend actually did the research and wrote it up! He is not a professional writer but he is a great storyteller, and I am very proud of him. So I wanted to use the pimping platform for his new e-book.
Also, I have a new review of a book called King of the Mountains that was written by a friend of mine. It's electronic-only, self-published, and pretty short. But, it's a fascinating story and I am so excited my friend actually did the research and wrote it up! He is not a professional writer but he is a great storyteller, and I am very proud of him. So I wanted to use the pimping platform for his new e-book.
3anna_in_pdx
Thanks, P.
4Macumbeira
Thumbed
6RickHarsch
thumb-bed
7dchaikin
Doing a little catch up. Nice one Anna. And, Martin, if you make it to part VII, just read your last two "pimped" in part VI and now kinda-sorta know something about Zanibar, but have no clue what to do with that info. And Rick, glad you weren't assassinated.
9MeditationesMartini
There's still time, guys, give him a break.
And thanks Dan!
And thanks Dan!
10RickHarsch
Ur, just now noticing you got the wrong zone--you were looking for the Pumpers and the Pumped
11RickHarsch
They hit me with six shots and I'm still alive!
13RickHarsch
You hit it: it's the fuckin cross or nothin
15RickHarsch
matyr? you mean satyr and martyr mixed neologicwise
17urania1
At least you're not suffering from a mater complex ... or are you. Now that I think of it, it is strange that you never talk about your mother.
18RickHarsch
Couldn't: Tennessee/Loseeeana
(screamin jay hawkins, mystery train, down by law, broke, sober, happy despite all even loons and hippocritz...)
(screamin jay hawkins, mystery train, down by law, broke, sober, happy despite all even loons and hippocritz...)
20RickHarsch
Murr's review is to be found via a link on The Cat Reads thread and this review of a biography of Zhukov is exceedingly brilliant. The best reviews read like articles, requiring little or no fore-knowledge, fascinating in themselves. Murr has done it, and at the highest level. the New York Review of Books awaits him.
21anna_in_pdx
Well I am not TCM and don't read serious history books about Russia and then write a piece for publication. However I did a review of a book I very much enjoyed and that I think our old friend Brent would enjoy, it's called Man Up and is a sort of memoir about what it means to be male in our society by a young man named Carlos Andres Gomez. He is a fine writer and the book reads like it is written by a DFW character, at least for me it does. Without all the footnotes though.
Now off to read something a bit more meaty, I have about half of Alex Austin's (remember him?) latest book left to read, is anyone else reading this?
Now off to read something a bit more meaty, I have about half of Alex Austin's (remember him?) latest book left to read, is anyone else reading this?
23anna_in_pdx
Thanks Dan!
26Macumbeira
And Anna, let there be no misunderstanding, men who read are pussies ! : )
27RickHarsch
Great review, Anna.
Of course, I found out that Mac is a pussy and vice versa. I think we both manned up here.
Of course, I found out that Mac is a pussy and vice versa. I think we both manned up here.
28anna_in_pdx
Lqarl! I love you guys...
30anna_in_pdx
29: Absolutely, a tour de force. ETA in case you don't notice it is on the hot reviews here is the link
http://www.librarything.com/work/255284/reviews/89640178
http://www.librarything.com/work/255284/reviews/89640178
31Macumbeira
Bas is our last remaining alpha Male. Awesome review !
32Macumbeira
I am so dog tired, i cannot even review my review drafts.
Watsamattawithme ?
Watsamattawithme ?
33baswood
Great stuff anna - thumbed.
I was wondering where the phrase Man Up comes from. some of my friends are always telling me to "Man Up" I don't know what they mean.
I was wondering where the phrase Man Up comes from. some of my friends are always telling me to "Man Up" I don't know what they mean.
34tomcatMurr
Great Stuff, Anna, thumbed! and Baz, thumbed. I'm all thumbs today. wooohoooo!
36anna_in_pdx
It means what "be a man" means... which is to say, nothing...
37RickHarsch
Though, to be fair, sometimes 'man up' can be used to say 'be honest', 'admit it'...
38tomcatMurr
Baz, it means they want to see your penis to check if it's longer or shorter than theirs. When you hear it, you should whip out your tape measure and invite them to go first.
hope that helps.
hope that helps.
40RickHarsch
And come to think of it, what kind of friend would say 'man up', anyway?
TC: why do you suppose we don't have a sheath like my dog (the male) has?
TC: why do you suppose we don't have a sheath like my dog (the male) has?
41tomcatMurr
human anatomy is a bit of a mystery to me, rick. :)
42RickHarsch
Well, as long as you can figure it as you go along...
43Macumbeira
What is this ? Discussing manliness without me ?
44RickHarsch
Well, you know, having met you and all...
45RickHarsch
By the way, how did this thread suddenly become simply THE PIMPS?
46Macumbeira
You have got it all wrong, it is not penish length, it is balls !
47RickHarsch
Or marbles, whatever the case may be.
48dchaikin
If everything is really about sex, then such is very deeply and skillfully concealed here, but still getting pimped.
Murr on Victor Serge: http://www.librarything.com/review/37442456
Club Read's Steven03tx on John Lyly: http://www.librarything.com/work/7623103
Murr on Victor Serge: http://www.librarything.com/review/37442456
Club Read's Steven03tx on John Lyly: http://www.librarything.com/work/7623103
50RickHarsch
Not only a great review, Mac, it actually made me determined to acquire and read the book.
51anna_in_pdx
Me too, sounds like it is a treasury of info about Islamic architecture, an interest of mine.
52Macumbeira
thanks Rick and Anna
Anna, there is something wrong with the link to your homepage.
Anna, there is something wrong with the link to your homepage.
54dchaikin
You seem to be slowing making your way around the world by foot. Wonderful review. You've already hooked me on Chatwin, maybe R. Byron too...
55anna_in_pdx
52: Thanks! I have not updated that blog since 2010 and in the meantime Blogspot seems to have changed all the url's. I have fixed it. I should try to start writing again, but am so distractable these days.
56Macumbeira
54 one step at the time, sampling rocks and plants along the way
58RickHarsch
mac have you read Arabia Deserta?
59tomcatMurr
Mac, that is a brilliant review. this book is going right onto my amazon wish list. Your review made me want to read the book immediately, but more important, made me want to go to the places Byron went to. One of my Taiwanese friends recently went to Uzbekistan, and his photos of the mosques and architecture there made me realise how glorious Muslim art is. (shame that the religion itself is so fucking awful, but there you go...)
We should have a thread devoted to Muslim architecture.
We should have a thread devoted to Muslim architecture.
60Macumbeira
Bas, can you please announce your reviews on this thread ? I hate it to be last one thumbing !
62sibylline
How many get to hear great-grandpa described to as a 'soggy bandaid attached to T.R's side'? - The review you want is the third one down, Island of Vice: Theodore Roosevelt's Quest to Clean Up Sin-Loving New York. HERE
64tomcatMurr
yep, thumbed too, how nice to read about your ancestor like that!
65anna_in_pdx
How neat, your story within a story makes for a great review.
66sibylline
Thanks. I almost fell off the Northway at 75 mph - and I'd always thought the bicycle story was probably just a story, my family likes to mythologize itself. I thought you all might enjoy it more than most.
67RickHarsch
Excellent review--the personal aspect inserted well, serving to provide compelling detail. This is a book I will buy when I am employed again or money snows my way.
71Macumbeira
shamelessly pimping a fantastic writer to be discovered
http://www.librarything.com/work/1524426/reviews/90444821
http://www.librarything.com/work/1524426/reviews/90444821
72RickHarsch
Very thoughtful, generous review, Mac.
73Macumbeira
thanks Rick !
75Macumbeira
Thanks Por !
76tomcatMurr
monotheistic Gods, who are invented by the wicked, to amplify and manipulate in an evil way the few unimportant differences that separate us from our fellow men.
Well said! Great review mac. hurrah!
Well said! Great review mac. hurrah!
77Macumbeira
wohooooooooooooooooooooooo
79RickHarsch
Mac, please translate #77
80Macumbeira
Ah, mon chèr Rick,
There once was a damsel named Naughty
Whose reputation was that of a hottie
She flashed with her boobs,
While reading her books
Till Tim took her out for a quickie
http://www.librarything.com/profile/thenaughtyhottie
There once was a damsel named Naughty
Whose reputation was that of a hottie
She flashed with her boobs,
While reading her books
Till Tim took her out for a quickie
http://www.librarything.com/profile/thenaughtyhottie
82Macumbeira
Thanks for thumb
it sounds ok, but maybe it is technically not ok ?
A
A
B
B
A
it sounds ok, but maybe it is technically not ok ?
A
A
B
B
A
83RickHarsch
There once was a damsel named Naughty
Whose reputation was that of a hottie
Boobs over books
regardless of looks
she was ousted for being so snotty
Whose reputation was that of a hottie
Boobs over books
regardless of looks
she was ousted for being so snotty
84Porius
there was once a hoyden gnamed hottie
who mistook the wereld for a pottie
she looked into a book
and cried fook fook fook fook
and now she's taken to karate
who mistook the wereld for a pottie
she looked into a book
and cried fook fook fook fook
and now she's taken to karate
85tomcatMurr
there was a young lass named the hottie
who had a mind like a potty
she thought people with books
were a bunch of kooks
till one of them smacked her on the botty
who had a mind like a potty
she thought people with books
were a bunch of kooks
till one of them smacked her on the botty
86Porius
there is an old bitch named the hottie
who is just a little bit dottie
she came to the swim
shouting simsimsollabim
and now she flies out of the body
who is just a little bit dottie
she came to the swim
shouting simsimsollabim
and now she flies out of the body
87Porius
one more?
there was an old tart called the hottie
who is batshit & grizzled & grotty
she came round one day
in her usual way
and fray after fray she scored spotty
there was an old tart called the hottie
who is batshit & grizzled & grotty
she came round one day
in her usual way
and fray after fray she scored spotty
88Macumbeira
haha didn't see this coming !
89RickHarsch
Murr said haha didn't see this coming!
for I here was with the hottie slumming
I threw down my fat book
on finding her rank nook
and gloried in my newfound down dumbing
for I here was with the hottie slumming
I threw down my fat book
on finding her rank nook
and gloried in my newfound down dumbing
90baswood
pimping my review of The Vivisector by Patrick White
91Macumbeira
Nice work Bas, thumbed with a "coup de pouce"
95RickHarsch
I also couped de pouce
96tomcatMurr
awesome work, bas.Thumbed.
97tomcatMurr
Let's give lots of thumbs to our erstwhile leader's review of DFW's bio.
http://www.librarything.com/work/12430864/reviews/89385402
http://www.librarything.com/work/12430864/reviews/89385402
98RickHarsch
Thanks for the referral, cat.
100ChocolateMuse
MM on Anna K: http://www.librarything.com/work/2340/reviews/91349150
Messier than War and Peace... I'm glad you said that, it means I might bring myself to read W&P one day.
Messier than War and Peace... I'm glad you said that, it means I might bring myself to read W&P one day.
101MeditationesMartini
I guess I meant the characters are messier; structurally, W/P is pretty messy with the efflorescence of Tolstoy's philosophy of history towards the end. Thanks, Choco!
102ChocolateMuse
It's a great review as always.
Oh well, I still might read W&P all the same.
Oh well, I still might read W&P all the same.
103tomcatMurr
you might? choco, YOU WILL!!!!!!!
good job, martini
good job, martini
105Macumbeira
Always been a fan of MM... Thumbed!
106RickHarsch
It's, like, Martin is like the only reviewer who can, like, you know, write well using, like, well, you know...
107MeditationesMartini
kulaks?
108RickHarsch
thanks, Martin, but for what?
109RickHarsch
shit, sorry, I was thinking of kudos
110anna_in_pdx
106: His writing style reminds me a bit of DFW's.
111MeditationesMartini
The people in the house I'm staying at believe strongly that it is a gathering place for unquiet spirits. Maybe Wallace is here, pulling us in positive directions.
113ChocolateMuse
Por is probably referring to The Eye of the Storm: http://www.librarything.com/work/25898/reviews/91836471
Or maybe The Green Child: http://www.librarything.com/work/710024/reviews/91913962
Both awesome reviews.
Or maybe The Green Child: http://www.librarything.com/work/710024/reviews/91913962
Both awesome reviews.
114tomcatMurr
yes, Bas outdoes himself again.
Pimping my new piece on Anthony Burgess at Open Letters Monthly:
http://www.openlettersmonthly.com/unorientalized/
The whole edition of OLM this month is devoted to Anthony Burgess. Lots of great reading for Burgess fans. Enjoy.
Pimping my new piece on Anthony Burgess at Open Letters Monthly:
http://www.openlettersmonthly.com/unorientalized/
The whole edition of OLM this month is devoted to Anthony Burgess. Lots of great reading for Burgess fans. Enjoy.
115A_musing
Very nice. Something I must pick up. Not sure you give Said enough credit, though; he has more subtlety to him. I do think your point on his MENA focus is on target, and, indeed, that he ends up in a bit of an Orientalist trap trying to deal with the non-Islamic world. I think he was conscious of that.
117sibylline
Both reviews excellent, Bas, but second really grabbed me.
TCM - How did I miss these Burgesses? I could not read Orientalism - simply could not - and I'm fascinated by your point that he creates a ..... you know...... closed circuit, vis a vis occidental attitudes toward the orient. I will definitely be tracking these down. For some reason I'm always attracted to books about a social order breaking apart where the focus is on examining a smaller set of more or less ordinary people characters against a big backdrop, more implied than seen. - Lawrence Durrell, Naguib Mahfouz, Olivia Manning I could go on and on...
TCM - How did I miss these Burgesses? I could not read Orientalism - simply could not - and I'm fascinated by your point that he creates a ..... you know...... closed circuit, vis a vis occidental attitudes toward the orient. I will definitely be tracking these down. For some reason I'm always attracted to books about a social order breaking apart where the focus is on examining a smaller set of more or less ordinary people characters against a big backdrop, more implied than seen. - Lawrence Durrell, Naguib Mahfouz, Olivia Manning I could go on and on...
119baswood
Thanks folks,
I am pimping a new literary group that has been set up called Literary centennials. We thought it might be a nice idea to read/group read authors whose centennial birthdays occur next year. We are going to feature Albert Camus for 2013, but also some of us will be reading Robertson Davies who was also born in 1913. Come over and join the fun at http://www.librarything.com/groups/literarycentennials
I am pimping a new literary group that has been set up called Literary centennials. We thought it might be a nice idea to read/group read authors whose centennial birthdays occur next year. We are going to feature Albert Camus for 2013, but also some of us will be reading Robertson Davies who was also born in 1913. Come over and join the fun at http://www.librarything.com/groups/literarycentennials
120tomcatMurr
Thanks Sam and Sibyx.
if you enjoy Manning, you will definitely enjoy Burgess. Same kind of thing, but funnier and raunchier.
Said has been more or less discredited now:
http://www.islam-watch.com/IbnWarraq/EdwardSaid.htm
http://www.meforum.org/2069/defending-the-west
But I still think his book is necessary reading. He has many interesting ideas, and many right things to say, even though his argument is limited and limiting.
if you enjoy Manning, you will definitely enjoy Burgess. Same kind of thing, but funnier and raunchier.
Said has been more or less discredited now:
http://www.islam-watch.com/IbnWarraq/EdwardSaid.htm
http://www.meforum.org/2069/defending-the-west
But I still think his book is necessary reading. He has many interesting ideas, and many right things to say, even though his argument is limited and limiting.
121A_musing
Come on, Murr, you can do better than the anonymous author of such tomes as "The West is the Best"!
The Bernard Lewis/Edward Said debates were very much a formative part of my education, I learned an awful lot from each. Both are fairly dated (even with Lewis still writing, though From Babel to Dragomans would be on my short list for most interesting Western books on Islam I've read in the last decade), and both perhaps indulged their own intellectual ego perhaps a bit too much, but, boy, those were great battles.
But Said won.
The Bernard Lewis/Edward Said debates were very much a formative part of my education, I learned an awful lot from each. Both are fairly dated (even with Lewis still writing, though From Babel to Dragomans would be on my short list for most interesting Western books on Islam I've read in the last decade), and both perhaps indulged their own intellectual ego perhaps a bit too much, but, boy, those were great battles.
But Said won.
122anna_in_pdx
I can understand the point that Said made it sound like a perfect Catch 22 for any Westerner to write about "the East" in any way, shape or form. Which is a legitimate point. But I think his corrective to the racist thinking of the Lewisites was really, really really important and overdue.
I myself am a Westerner who lived in the Middle East (Tunisia, Egypt and Saudi Arabia) for years and also lived for a short time in Nigeria. I read Orientalism and it helped me recognize some of the stereotypes I held myself. It also made me decide that I am not going to "memoirize" those experiences because I think there have been enough "white person travelogue" type memoirs in the world and I would rather hear what Egyptians, Nigerians, etc. think about their own situations.
I myself am a Westerner who lived in the Middle East (Tunisia, Egypt and Saudi Arabia) for years and also lived for a short time in Nigeria. I read Orientalism and it helped me recognize some of the stereotypes I held myself. It also made me decide that I am not going to "memoirize" those experiences because I think there have been enough "white person travelogue" type memoirs in the world and I would rather hear what Egyptians, Nigerians, etc. think about their own situations.
123MeditationesMartini
It also made me decide that I am not going to "memoirize" those experiences because I think there have been enough "white person travelogue" type memoirs in the world and I would rather hear what Egyptians, Nigerians, etc. think about their own situations.
Yes. As they have started saying, this. It's been mildly demoralizing since I got back from Uganda (where I was working with an organization that provides support for people with HIV) that with the exception of my family, who are blasé as shit, everybody I talk to about it keeps using words like "life-changing" and "powerful" and encouraging me to write about it when they know I can't even finish my master's thesis. As if we need one more self-congratulatory "my summer of authenticity" essay in this distracted world. And of course everyone's just trying to relate using what they've got, and lord knows I'm ignorant as well, but yeah, it's been surprising the degree to which everyone wants a white Virgil--"What do think about the situation in the Congo, Martin? Do you think it's so sad about the violence and the poverty? Can we perhaps blame colonialism?" and I'm like uhhhh let me tell you the two facts that I know and follow up with a safari anecdote from a place I've actually been. Where's Sub-Saharan Africa's Said? He or she is doing a terrible job.
Yes. As they have started saying, this. It's been mildly demoralizing since I got back from Uganda (where I was working with an organization that provides support for people with HIV) that with the exception of my family, who are blasé as shit, everybody I talk to about it keeps using words like "life-changing" and "powerful" and encouraging me to write about it when they know I can't even finish my master's thesis. As if we need one more self-congratulatory "my summer of authenticity" essay in this distracted world. And of course everyone's just trying to relate using what they've got, and lord knows I'm ignorant as well, but yeah, it's been surprising the degree to which everyone wants a white Virgil--"What do think about the situation in the Congo, Martin? Do you think it's so sad about the violence and the poverty? Can we perhaps blame colonialism?" and I'm like uhhhh let me tell you the two facts that I know and follow up with a safari anecdote from a place I've actually been. Where's Sub-Saharan Africa's Said? He or she is doing a terrible job.
124tomcatMurr
121 what's your point sam? anonymous author? the piece I linked to is by Ibn Warraq. West is Best? Where does he say that? Perhaps you should actually read the article before pooooofing it off. He shows methodically and clearly how Said's methodology is flawed.
I've heard of Lewis, but not read him: I tend to stay away from Americans writing about the Middle East, the way I stay away from Creationists writing about Science: They know nothing, and only write about what they see. Also, to be honest, the whole region interests me absolutely not at all. Said's book is indicative of the way American and British intellectuals regard the world: it stops at Afghanistan, and points further East are basically ignored. Only open a newspaper and you will see what I mean. There were riots in Thailand last week. Anyone here hear about that, or know what they were about?
Said's book, as Anna said, was an important corrective to the racism inherent in the way most Americans think about the world. But my point is that his ideas are just as limiting about vast tracts of the world. Does his work liberate us? No.
I for one would be interested to read about Anna and Martin's experiences, not as documents about the places they went to - Said's work has at least helped us to see that such a thing is deeply flawed, perhaps impossible- but as documents about the encounter of one sensibility with an other, about the clash or meeting of cultures, about the impact of the seen on the seer. such accounts are valuable and interesting, it seems to me, and if the consequence of Said's work is that such documents are not produced, it's a loss for all concerned.
Anyway. I'm still on my porridge here.
I've heard of Lewis, but not read him: I tend to stay away from Americans writing about the Middle East, the way I stay away from Creationists writing about Science: They know nothing, and only write about what they see. Also, to be honest, the whole region interests me absolutely not at all. Said's book is indicative of the way American and British intellectuals regard the world: it stops at Afghanistan, and points further East are basically ignored. Only open a newspaper and you will see what I mean. There were riots in Thailand last week. Anyone here hear about that, or know what they were about?
Said's book, as Anna said, was an important corrective to the racism inherent in the way most Americans think about the world. But my point is that his ideas are just as limiting about vast tracts of the world. Does his work liberate us? No.
I for one would be interested to read about Anna and Martin's experiences, not as documents about the places they went to - Said's work has at least helped us to see that such a thing is deeply flawed, perhaps impossible- but as documents about the encounter of one sensibility with an other, about the clash or meeting of cultures, about the impact of the seen on the seer. such accounts are valuable and interesting, it seems to me, and if the consequence of Said's work is that such documents are not produced, it's a loss for all concerned.
Anyway. I'm still on my porridge here.
125sibylline
Oh I am liking this discussion. I read a lot of memoirs for a small press and I would never set boundaries or limits of any kind around what experiences a person could or should write about. It's not about the experience but about what one makes of it, whatever it is.
126MeditationesMartini
>124 tomcatMurr: While the way American and British intellectuals regard the world: it stops at Afghanistan, and points further East are basically ignored has a certain undeniable truth to it, you don't actually mean the whole region interests me absolutely not at all, do you? Little hyperbole there?
And as for the red shirt riots in Thailand, the BBC website has one (1) tab for "Asia" as well as one for 'Mid-East'.
Anyway, you're not going to trick me into any new writing projects! :)
And as for the red shirt riots in Thailand, the BBC website has one (1) tab for "Asia" as well as one for 'Mid-East'.
Anyway, you're not going to trick me into any new writing projects! :)
127A_musing
Ibn Warraq is a pretty well-known commodity; he is an annonymous, British trained, Pakistani author whose books include one titled "West is Best"; I've read some of him, and I read that article, which is part of a book he wrote on Said. He claims anonymity out of fear of being the next Rushdie. He is reasonably intelligent and well-read, but very intensely polemical, wildly anti-religious and quickly dismissive of just about everyone, and he is always 100% right. You will find, though, that he doesn't bite off the best of Said's followers - I've not seen him tackle my favorite, Menocal, for instance.
You see, I find the Middle East and Islam both fascinating - my undergraduate degree was history with a Middle Eastern concentration, though I'll confess to barely making the concentration requirements of the department. I agree that I'd love to hear of both Anna's and Martin's experience.
But to focus on his criticism of Said, I find it vague and indefinite and often not very tied down. Let's take one comment of a more objective nature: he says Said characterizes Egypt "repeatedly" as a colony instead of protectorate. It's not footnoted, so I don't know his specific reference, but I did a quick search of the word "colony" in Orientalism and find 23 results, only a handful of which relate to Egypt. One is where Said talks about growing up as an "Oriental" in two British colonies - Palestine and Egypt. I don't think the technical distinction of protectorate/colony is relevant here, and the time period involved is following the end of the protectorate and the creation of the British controlled "Kingdom"; he's talking about life as a boy both playing up to the British colonials (their schools gave him an early education) and fearing them (after all, they did have this habit of declaring martial law and marching their army around Cairo). Another is where he talks about a particular British writer's attitudes toward India and Egypt as colonies - again, not a place where he is talking historically about the country's political history or organization, but instead he is talking about a particular person's approach toward both the Raj and the Protectorate, broadly called colonies, looked at from London. I don't think ibn Warraq is really giving us a successful "debunking", but these are the kinds of usages he is getting all hot and bothered about. That particularly criticism raised my eyebrow, since usually it's just as bad an idea for a Pakistani to debate someone who grew up in Egypt about Egyptian history as it is for an American to debate a Brit about British history (acknowledging, however, that the rule doesn't hold for Americans, who do a great job of not knowing their own history).
None of that, of course, is at all relevant toward your use of Said, which I was just saying didn't quite give Said enough credit for his complexity. Said loved Western literature - it is what he taught his whole life, he was an English Prof. - and he also enjoyed Westerners trying to learn about his culture - after all, he mostly taught to Westerners. As a Palestinian Christian by birth, with a western training, he watched a whole culture he loved get subsumed by Islam. But he regularly gets characterized as somehow forbidding or preventing or criticizing the study of other cultures by the West, just because he has the chagrin to ask them to challenge their minds a bit more than they have. Ibn Warraq starts off noting Said's praise of William Jones, for example, but forgets that later on. The best of Said's followers delve into to the particular bits of myopia the West had in approaching particular societies, like Menocal discussing the refusal of Romance linguists to credit Arab influences in early Spanish poetry, and use his method to open our eyes. As you said, he had many interesting things and many right things to say, which is about all any of us could ever ask be said in praise of us. But when you go on to say "his argument" is kind of "limiting", I'd suggest those limitations are more often his readers' than ones he'd advocate himself. (Well, except on a few occassions when he was in a foul mood).
By the way, I ordered the Burgess. I'd recommend Lewis some time, he is really pretty interesting. Anna called him racist, but I'd defend him from that. He was a Jewish scholar delving into Islamic history, particularly Turkish history, and was in many ways very open minded for someone out of his mileau.
You see, I find the Middle East and Islam both fascinating - my undergraduate degree was history with a Middle Eastern concentration, though I'll confess to barely making the concentration requirements of the department. I agree that I'd love to hear of both Anna's and Martin's experience.
But to focus on his criticism of Said, I find it vague and indefinite and often not very tied down. Let's take one comment of a more objective nature: he says Said characterizes Egypt "repeatedly" as a colony instead of protectorate. It's not footnoted, so I don't know his specific reference, but I did a quick search of the word "colony" in Orientalism and find 23 results, only a handful of which relate to Egypt. One is where Said talks about growing up as an "Oriental" in two British colonies - Palestine and Egypt. I don't think the technical distinction of protectorate/colony is relevant here, and the time period involved is following the end of the protectorate and the creation of the British controlled "Kingdom"; he's talking about life as a boy both playing up to the British colonials (their schools gave him an early education) and fearing them (after all, they did have this habit of declaring martial law and marching their army around Cairo). Another is where he talks about a particular British writer's attitudes toward India and Egypt as colonies - again, not a place where he is talking historically about the country's political history or organization, but instead he is talking about a particular person's approach toward both the Raj and the Protectorate, broadly called colonies, looked at from London. I don't think ibn Warraq is really giving us a successful "debunking", but these are the kinds of usages he is getting all hot and bothered about. That particularly criticism raised my eyebrow, since usually it's just as bad an idea for a Pakistani to debate someone who grew up in Egypt about Egyptian history as it is for an American to debate a Brit about British history (acknowledging, however, that the rule doesn't hold for Americans, who do a great job of not knowing their own history).
None of that, of course, is at all relevant toward your use of Said, which I was just saying didn't quite give Said enough credit for his complexity. Said loved Western literature - it is what he taught his whole life, he was an English Prof. - and he also enjoyed Westerners trying to learn about his culture - after all, he mostly taught to Westerners. As a Palestinian Christian by birth, with a western training, he watched a whole culture he loved get subsumed by Islam. But he regularly gets characterized as somehow forbidding or preventing or criticizing the study of other cultures by the West, just because he has the chagrin to ask them to challenge their minds a bit more than they have. Ibn Warraq starts off noting Said's praise of William Jones, for example, but forgets that later on. The best of Said's followers delve into to the particular bits of myopia the West had in approaching particular societies, like Menocal discussing the refusal of Romance linguists to credit Arab influences in early Spanish poetry, and use his method to open our eyes. As you said, he had many interesting things and many right things to say, which is about all any of us could ever ask be said in praise of us. But when you go on to say "his argument" is kind of "limiting", I'd suggest those limitations are more often his readers' than ones he'd advocate himself. (Well, except on a few occassions when he was in a foul mood).
By the way, I ordered the Burgess. I'd recommend Lewis some time, he is really pretty interesting. Anna called him racist, but I'd defend him from that. He was a Jewish scholar delving into Islamic history, particularly Turkish history, and was in many ways very open minded for someone out of his mileau.
128A_musing
Setting aside Said, and getting to Martin and Anna, I tend to think outsiders visiting a place often can give insight not so easily available to the locals, even if there are many cases where there's a myopia resulting from your own perspective. But it's always more interesting as a two-sided conversation.
129tomcatMurr
He claims anonymity out of fear of being the next Rushdie.
well, given the murderousness of Islam, he's probably right to do so. Good post. Said is more complex than I have given him credit for, you're right, but I had to extract salient points to make an argument. which is not to say that I am backing down from that argument.
as for Martin in 126, I'm interested why you think it's hyperbole. I really am not interested at all. History there simply repeats itself in a cycle of violence and retribution, endlessly boring and hopeless. And it seems to have far greater prominence in the Western media than its real status on the world stage would warrant. I read your surprise at my lack of interest is a result of endless brainwashing by the media, to the extent where an interest in that part of the world and their sorry problems is regarded as a cultural norm - a default setting- , and any one who doesn't have this interest, is looked on as outrageous, or hyperbolic.
It amazes me living here how the Western media focusses so much on a tiny corner of the Eastern Med where a pocketful of people are constantly at each other's throats. I cancelled my subscription to the London Review of Books because it got to the point where every edition was about Palestine or Israel. Why should I be interested in it? Millions of people around the globe are not interested in it. Why is the West so utterly fixated on it to the point where the slightest incident (another boring suicide bomb, for example, or another tedious rocket attack on Gaza) makes the front pages ON A DAILY BASIS? There are other things going on in the world, which impact many more people, and which are potentially much more threatening to world peace. Daiyoutais, anyone?
Well, we know the reason why of course.
rant over. thanks for reading my review, anyway, and I hope you enjoy Burgess, Sam. It's a romp and a hoot apart from all the Orientalist stuff.
well, given the murderousness of Islam, he's probably right to do so. Good post. Said is more complex than I have given him credit for, you're right, but I had to extract salient points to make an argument. which is not to say that I am backing down from that argument.
as for Martin in 126, I'm interested why you think it's hyperbole. I really am not interested at all. History there simply repeats itself in a cycle of violence and retribution, endlessly boring and hopeless. And it seems to have far greater prominence in the Western media than its real status on the world stage would warrant. I read your surprise at my lack of interest is a result of endless brainwashing by the media, to the extent where an interest in that part of the world and their sorry problems is regarded as a cultural norm - a default setting- , and any one who doesn't have this interest, is looked on as outrageous, or hyperbolic.
It amazes me living here how the Western media focusses so much on a tiny corner of the Eastern Med where a pocketful of people are constantly at each other's throats. I cancelled my subscription to the London Review of Books because it got to the point where every edition was about Palestine or Israel. Why should I be interested in it? Millions of people around the globe are not interested in it. Why is the West so utterly fixated on it to the point where the slightest incident (another boring suicide bomb, for example, or another tedious rocket attack on Gaza) makes the front pages ON A DAILY BASIS? There are other things going on in the world, which impact many more people, and which are potentially much more threatening to world peace. Daiyoutais, anyone?
Well, we know the reason why of course.
rant over. thanks for reading my review, anyway, and I hope you enjoy Burgess, Sam. It's a romp and a hoot apart from all the Orientalist stuff.
130A_musing
I actually get particularly upset at the centrality of Israel/Palestine to any discussion of the Middle East. It's a small part of a big part of the world. And I'm only slightly less bored and/or upset by oil-focused analyses.
But I'm not going to try to sell someone on developing an interest in a part of the world that hasn't attracted them - there's just too much going on in too many places. I have two sisters who have spent most of their lives in and out of different parts of Africa (one mostly in West Africa, one more in Southern Africia) but I just don't get excited by or deeply involved in the region or its culture, and have never been there. I only recently got more seriously interested in the part of the world you live in, and am swimming wildly trying to get some basics.
But if you want a good reason for interest in Middle Eastern culture in general, it is an interest that simply offends many Europeans and Americans, and that alone is worth it. My wife recently ticked off some very kind hosts in Spain by pointing out some fascinating Islamic architectural elements in some of the churches ("repurposed" from Mosques) and then I committed the faux pas of talking about Arabic influences when we were chatting Quixote (I mean, come on, he presents the book as written by an Arab!) - those little cultural tweaks were kind of fun, and the offense taken is very telling. There is nothing more forbidden in today's America than having a sincere interest in Islam and/or Arabic culture. Absent, of course, a willingness to endlessly rant about its deficiencies, a la Warraq.
But I'm not going to try to sell someone on developing an interest in a part of the world that hasn't attracted them - there's just too much going on in too many places. I have two sisters who have spent most of their lives in and out of different parts of Africa (one mostly in West Africa, one more in Southern Africia) but I just don't get excited by or deeply involved in the region or its culture, and have never been there. I only recently got more seriously interested in the part of the world you live in, and am swimming wildly trying to get some basics.
But if you want a good reason for interest in Middle Eastern culture in general, it is an interest that simply offends many Europeans and Americans, and that alone is worth it. My wife recently ticked off some very kind hosts in Spain by pointing out some fascinating Islamic architectural elements in some of the churches ("repurposed" from Mosques) and then I committed the faux pas of talking about Arabic influences when we were chatting Quixote (I mean, come on, he presents the book as written by an Arab!) - those little cultural tweaks were kind of fun, and the offense taken is very telling. There is nothing more forbidden in today's America than having a sincere interest in Islam and/or Arabic culture. Absent, of course, a willingness to endlessly rant about its deficiencies, a la Warraq.
131anna_in_pdx
This is a really interesting conversation. It is funny how different people gravitate to different parts of the world.
I've never had people tell me they're actually *offended* by my interest in Arabic language and culture, Sam. How weird. Maybe they figure they'd offend ME since I was married to an Egyptian and have two sons with Arabic names, so they go lightly around me and hide their prejudice?
I've never had people tell me they're actually *offended* by my interest in Arabic language and culture, Sam. How weird. Maybe they figure they'd offend ME since I was married to an Egyptian and have two sons with Arabic names, so they go lightly around me and hide their prejudice?
132A_musing
I'm actually shocked you haven't gotten blowback on it. If somehow it comes up in conversation that I had a Middle East speciality to my history degree, the immediate assumption is I studied Israel for 4 years, and things then go downhill from there in most cases. And I live in a part of the country that is very liberal and open in general.
133tomcatMurr
it is strange. Maybe it's because of where you both live? Pacific coast, Atlantic coast?
Where's martini, I hope I haven't offended him.
Where's martini, I hope I haven't offended him.
134anna_in_pdx
My son did get called a "terrorist" once anonymously in a class exercise (his name is Osama) during his high school years. His teacher freaked the hell out and spent the rest of the class reaming the kids for being jerks. He was probably more embarrassed than if she had not made a big deal out of it, but probably it was good for the kid in question to hear her POV. But in general my kids have not really had to deal with any aggro from Americans about being half-Arab. If anything they probably dealt with more attention in Egypt, for being half-American. Not always negative attention, but often they just wished they weren't so obviously "foreigners."
135A_musing
It may well be location, it just challenges my own views about where I live compared to the rest of the country...
Yeh, Anna, that terrorist incident is what I'd kind of expect from Americans, without the teacher going ballistic on the kids at the end. We have some friends whose kids have definitely gotten some flak, and who themselves got flak pretty publicly when they went on the Hadj.
Yeh, Anna, that terrorist incident is what I'd kind of expect from Americans, without the teacher going ballistic on the kids at the end. We have some friends whose kids have definitely gotten some flak, and who themselves got flak pretty publicly when they went on the Hadj.
136MeditationesMartini
Offended? Not ever, dear cat. Just been moving today is all.
I get where you're coming from, more or less. Everything factual you say, I agree with, and your evaluative statements about Said have their merit, and of course fuck corporate media. I just have trouble with "not interested at all." It never would have occurred to me not to be interested, but I don't feel brainwashed; I suppose I think of an interest in all parts of the world as a "default setting," but maybe we're just using the word "interest" differently. I'm VERY interested in the Diaoyu/Senkakus, though. Did you hear that Shintaro Ishihara is starting a new plitical party and running in the Japanese national election?
I get where you're coming from, more or less. Everything factual you say, I agree with, and your evaluative statements about Said have their merit, and of course fuck corporate media. I just have trouble with "not interested at all." It never would have occurred to me not to be interested, but I don't feel brainwashed; I suppose I think of an interest in all parts of the world as a "default setting," but maybe we're just using the word "interest" differently. I'm VERY interested in the Diaoyu/Senkakus, though. Did you hear that Shintaro Ishihara is starting a new plitical party and running in the Japanese national election?
137baswood
TC another great article in open letters monthly, which has sparked off a great debate in the salon. Long may it continue.
138tomcatMurr
glad to hear it, Martini. about your move, I mean, not about Shintaro Ishihara, who is a nasty piece of work.
Thanks Bas
Thanks Bas
139Macumbeira
is that Shinobu Ishihara's colourfull nephew ?
140RickHarsch
'Setting aside Said' seems to be the initiator of this discussion, which is most interesting in terms of anagrammaticals, setting aside Said he said in an aside my aides decamped were decapitated and so on...
That, Sigh, (Id), why not discuss Franz Fanon? And on and on onan?
Interestingly, the cat's disgust with the ME was expressed in virtual summary of ibn Khaldun.
Now, having Khald un myself to inject, the very fact that Said is being discussed in such terms as his having or not been of lasting worth is very much to the point Murrcat seems to be mewling from, the USA-centric view of all things. (By the way, I don't think Martin is the type to wash or have washed his brain.) I like that a little anger rose here, for it is all something to be angry about, perpetually, as the colonial imperative hasn't changed, slowed, stopped, and has been ongoing for so long and is most certainly an accurate enough way to view the US--as super colonialists (agile and dangerous capitalism, to state again my favorite Braudel quote, though he was writing about Venice). I find nuggets of distinctive intellect in all the above writers' posts, so I hope you don't get all polite and drop it, for the only--brief--boring bits above seem to be chopped tibs of politesse.
In broader strokes, I agree absolutely with Murr, if that's not obvious, but I am Sam I am, too, taking in the ME news daily, waiting for the tide to turn as it seems to be beginning to as the UN has called for the Israelis to open up to nuclear inspection and the US and UK are moving, though by force of great gravity, towards a saner approach.
Last night, I asked Arjun to name the five ex Soviet stans, and he did so with alacrity. On 'east Asia' he scored 95 to 96 on our blank map geography quiz. Certainly I am a beast for pushing a 9 year old like this, but he doesn't resist and seems to understand when I tell him that at least he'll never be the most ignorant son of a bitch in the bar.
ramble, ramble
That, Sigh, (Id), why not discuss Franz Fanon? And on and on onan?
Interestingly, the cat's disgust with the ME was expressed in virtual summary of ibn Khaldun.
Now, having Khald un myself to inject, the very fact that Said is being discussed in such terms as his having or not been of lasting worth is very much to the point Murrcat seems to be mewling from, the USA-centric view of all things. (By the way, I don't think Martin is the type to wash or have washed his brain.) I like that a little anger rose here, for it is all something to be angry about, perpetually, as the colonial imperative hasn't changed, slowed, stopped, and has been ongoing for so long and is most certainly an accurate enough way to view the US--as super colonialists (agile and dangerous capitalism, to state again my favorite Braudel quote, though he was writing about Venice). I find nuggets of distinctive intellect in all the above writers' posts, so I hope you don't get all polite and drop it, for the only--brief--boring bits above seem to be chopped tibs of politesse.
In broader strokes, I agree absolutely with Murr, if that's not obvious, but I am Sam I am, too, taking in the ME news daily, waiting for the tide to turn as it seems to be beginning to as the UN has called for the Israelis to open up to nuclear inspection and the US and UK are moving, though by force of great gravity, towards a saner approach.
Last night, I asked Arjun to name the five ex Soviet stans, and he did so with alacrity. On 'east Asia' he scored 95 to 96 on our blank map geography quiz. Certainly I am a beast for pushing a 9 year old like this, but he doesn't resist and seems to understand when I tell him that at least he'll never be the most ignorant son of a bitch in the bar.
ramble, ramble
141RickHarsch
The 95, by the way, was for having to hit myandmyburma twice because the first time the computer thought lower Burmbum was its neighbor. So really 96 of 96.
142anna_in_pdx
I read Wretched of the Earth last year because I was sure I had read it before and found that I had not. It's pretty bleak. And of course it's a bit dated... But I think important reading.
Your Arjun is a lot like our Jack, who loves to be quizzed on geography and was in the state geography bee (we did not know there was such a thing) last year when he was in 8th grade.
Your Arjun is a lot like our Jack, who loves to be quizzed on geography and was in the state geography bee (we did not know there was such a thing) last year when he was in 8th grade.
143RickHarsch
Jack, eh? I bet he's a half-Arab Said lover!
144anna_in_pdx
No, I doubt he's ever heard of Said as he is Chris' kid, not mine and thus does not even have "half arab" going for him.
The half arabs I spawned have probably not heard of Said either, since one is totally nonacademic and is currently in Job Corps learning to fight forest fires, and the other is a math major who tries to avoid any liberal arts type subjects in spite of his mom's opinions that they are good and he should take them. If I had not been around while they were being born I would wonder if they were related to me. Such is parenthood.
ETA: The funny thing about Chris' kids is that they are both named derivatives of "John" - one is Sean, one is Jack. Sean is named for John Lennon's kid (his middle name is Zappa) and Jack (Patrick) is named for Jack Aubrey in the Patrick O'Brian novels as well as Patrick himself.
The half arabs I spawned have probably not heard of Said either, since one is totally nonacademic and is currently in Job Corps learning to fight forest fires, and the other is a math major who tries to avoid any liberal arts type subjects in spite of his mom's opinions that they are good and he should take them. If I had not been around while they were being born I would wonder if they were related to me. Such is parenthood.
ETA: The funny thing about Chris' kids is that they are both named derivatives of "John" - one is Sean, one is Jack. Sean is named for John Lennon's kid (his middle name is Zappa) and Jack (Patrick) is named for Jack Aubrey in the Patrick O'Brian novels as well as Patrick himself.
145RickHarsch
Anna,
What was the point of all your years in the ME if you can't even convert your step-children into Arabs?
What was the point of all your years in the ME if you can't even convert your step-children into Arabs?
146MeditationesMartini
Last night, I asked Arjun to name the five ex Soviet stans, and he did so with alacrity. On 'east Asia' he scored 95 to 96 on our blank map geography quiz. Certainly I am a beast for pushing a 9 year old like this, but he doesn't resist and seems to understand when I tell him that at least he'll never be the most ignorant son of a bitch in the bar.
This is so important. Knowing map stuff and animals is, like, the kid version of being a respected public intellectual.
This is so important. Knowing map stuff and animals is, like, the kid version of being a respected public intellectual.
147anna_in_pdx
It's also very cool kid cred to know names of dinosaurs.
148MeditationesMartini
>147 anna_in_pdx: omg, how could I forget dinosaurs. And space.
149MeditationesMartini
They actually know way more than us, and I'm not talking about the 'wisdom of innocence'.
150A_musing
Rick, someday, when I want by Slovenia, I'm going to quiz Arjun on all the heros and anti-heros of the Mahabharta. Will you have him prepared?
151A_musing
Fanon is just wildly dated, but still essential. It is at least a much quicker read than anything Said ever wrote.
152RickHarsch
Sammy, he is ready
153anna_in_pdx
150: I bet Chris' kids might know a few of those, Chris talks about them enough! :)
154RickHarsch
That's the thing, 'wildly dated', as if nothing happened.
155tomcatMurr
>146 MeditationesMartini:
Martini
While they're all bashing you over on the other thread, I'll just tell you that it strikes me that you will make a great father.
But get your master's done first, eh?
Martini
While they're all bashing you over on the other thread, I'll just tell you that it strikes me that you will make a great father.
But get your master's done first, eh?
156MeditationesMartini
I'm a ticking time bomb! Gonna get knocked up by some douchebag in a Burger King bathroom for sure.
But thanks, TC, that means a lot. I have actual words on paper now! One of them is passim.
But thanks, TC, that means a lot. I have actual words on paper now! One of them is passim.
157MeditationesMartini
Oh hey you guys, I think this review is kinda blah but but it is positive and so the author looked me up on facebook and asked me, with blandishments, if he could share it wi the world on his publisher's "popular online archive" (?) and we had a friendly interaction but I was like where's the marketing department on this one and then I was like ohhhh yeah downsized and doing piecework for pennies as part of a "content generation system" operating out of Mumbai! awesome! Anyway, it turned out he's a local boy and we know some people in common, and it was a good book and I recommend it. At his best he's Rick Harsch funny, tho he can't hold a plot so good.
158RickHarsch
lqarl 156.
like review
love word ruckus
like review
love word ruckus
159Macumbeira
lqrl 157
160dchaikin
Slow on LT lately...
Murr, finally read your article on Burgess....and the discussion here afterward. Great stuff.
Martin - Back in 2004 I finished my thesis on Aug 22, two years after requesting extensions beyond the school's limits and about 15 months after I sent my adviser my I-give-up-can't-do-this letter. My daughter was born Oct 5. Nothing like a real deadline. Also, enjoyed your review.
Murr, finally read your article on Burgess....and the discussion here afterward. Great stuff.
Martin - Back in 2004 I finished my thesis on Aug 22, two years after requesting extensions beyond the school's limits and about 15 months after I sent my adviser my I-give-up-can't-do-this letter. My daughter was born Oct 5. Nothing like a real deadline. Also, enjoyed your review.
161MeditationesMartini
>160 dchaikin: Ugh, so lucky. I think that's the deadline I've been waiting for. Instead I'm holing up in an apartment with a cat in a place where I don't know anybody and blocking myself off of facebook, a strategy last applied in the summer of 2011 at Peter Weissman's place in Woodstock, where it met with some degree of success until Hurricane Irene hit. It seems like removing electronic distractions in general will be a good cleansing practice. Luckily, the Salon is dead these days.
162RickHarsch
Maybe name your thesis after a hurricane...
163Sandydog1
Finally got around to reading Notes from Underground and so very grateful for MM's wonderful review of same!
164MeditationesMartini
yaaaaaay. I'll submit that as a thesis and punctiliously follow all demands for revisions.
165A_musing
Ya'll should read Murr's new post on Typee and Omoo over at the Lectern: http://thelectern.blogspot.com/2012/12/typee-omoo-herman-melville.html Great stuff!
166Macumbeira
compulsive reading
167tomcatMurr
thank you both.
170Sandydog1
Forgive me for churning up more old posts, but I just finished Jesus' Son. 'Thoroughly enjoyed a wonderful review by some old, enigmatic, mysterious LT denizen by the name of EnriqueFreeque.
171solla
Anna has written a short review of my novella, Eggtooth, (so obviously I'm pimping the novella as well.) It's a hot review at the moment. You can read an except of the novella on Amazon or at runninggirlpress.com.
172RickHarsch
congratulations!
173anna_in_pdx
It was very fun to read. I recommend her novel too, which I think you can also read an excerpt of at the same sources.
174solla
For anyone interested, I have just put 5 paperback copies and 10 ebook (actually iBookstore promo codes, so you need an iPad or other Apple device) each of Eggtooth and The Things that Always Were up on Member Giveaways.
175Macumbeira
Ok Solla, I submitted my demand
Let see what I'll get ( it is so exciting ! )
Let see what I'll get ( it is so exciting ! )