The Pimpers and the Pimped, VII

This is a continuation of the topic The Pimpers and the Pimped, VI.

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The Pimpers and the Pimped, VII

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1anna_in_pdx
Aug 24, 2012, 5:30 pm

Hello everyone, we need a new "pimping" thread.

Also, I have a new review of a book called King of the Mountains that was written by a friend of mine. It's electronic-only, self-published, and pretty short. But, it's a fascinating story and I am so excited my friend actually did the research and wrote it up! He is not a professional writer but he is a great storyteller, and I am very proud of him. So I wanted to use the pimping platform for his new e-book.

2Porius
Aug 24, 2012, 7:25 pm

Thumbs.

3anna_in_pdx
Aug 24, 2012, 9:21 pm

Thanks, P.

4Macumbeira
Aug 25, 2012, 12:17 am

Thumbed

5baswood
Aug 25, 2012, 7:20 am

Thumbed

6RickHarsch
Aug 25, 2012, 11:22 am

thumb-bed

7dchaikin
Aug 31, 2012, 2:09 pm

Doing a little catch up. Nice one Anna. And, Martin, if you make it to part VII, just read your last two "pimped" in part VI and now kinda-sorta know something about Zanibar, but have no clue what to do with that info. And Rick, glad you weren't assassinated.

8urania1
Aug 31, 2012, 2:31 pm

Rick wasn't assassinated? Rick, I am disappointed in you.

9MeditationesMartini
Aug 31, 2012, 4:30 pm

There's still time, guys, give him a break.

And thanks Dan!

10RickHarsch
Sep 2, 2012, 4:17 am

Ur, just now noticing you got the wrong zone--you were looking for the Pumpers and the Pumped

11RickHarsch
Sep 4, 2012, 2:45 pm

They hit me with six shots and I'm still alive!

12urania1
Sep 4, 2012, 3:28 pm

Jesus Rick,

Not assassinated yet???

13RickHarsch
Sep 4, 2012, 3:37 pm

You hit it: it's the fuckin cross or nothin

14urania1
Sep 4, 2012, 3:38 pm

Nah ... You just have a bad case of matyr complex.

15RickHarsch
Sep 4, 2012, 3:45 pm

matyr? you mean satyr and martyr mixed neologicwise

16urania1
Sep 4, 2012, 3:48 pm

Typo. Sorry. Not trying to confuse you about your current mental state.

17urania1
Sep 4, 2012, 3:50 pm

At least you're not suffering from a mater complex ... or are you. Now that I think of it, it is strange that you never talk about your mother.

18RickHarsch
Sep 4, 2012, 3:52 pm

Couldn't: Tennessee/Loseeeana

(screamin jay hawkins, mystery train, down by law, broke, sober, happy despite all even loons and hippocritz...)

19urania1
Sep 4, 2012, 4:01 pm

Quit making sense Rick. It is disconcerting.

20RickHarsch
Sep 5, 2012, 10:26 am

Murr's review is to be found via a link on The Cat Reads thread and this review of a biography of Zhukov is exceedingly brilliant. The best reviews read like articles, requiring little or no fore-knowledge, fascinating in themselves. Murr has done it, and at the highest level. the New York Review of Books awaits him.

21anna_in_pdx
Sep 9, 2012, 10:25 pm

Well I am not TCM and don't read serious history books about Russia and then write a piece for publication. However I did a review of a book I very much enjoyed and that I think our old friend Brent would enjoy, it's called Man Up and is a sort of memoir about what it means to be male in our society by a young man named Carlos Andres Gomez. He is a fine writer and the book reads like it is written by a DFW character, at least for me it does. Without all the footnotes though.

Now off to read something a bit more meaty, I have about half of Alex Austin's (remember him?) latest book left to read, is anyone else reading this?

22dchaikin
Sep 9, 2012, 11:10 pm

Good stuff Anna.

23anna_in_pdx
Sep 9, 2012, 11:10 pm

Thanks Dan!

24Macumbeira
Sep 10, 2012, 12:08 am

25Porius
Sep 10, 2012, 12:12 am

Thumbed.

26Macumbeira
Sep 10, 2012, 12:13 am

And Anna, let there be no misunderstanding, men who read are pussies ! : )

27RickHarsch
Sep 10, 2012, 4:27 am

Great review, Anna.

Of course, I found out that Mac is a pussy and vice versa. I think we both manned up here.

28anna_in_pdx
Sep 10, 2012, 9:56 am

Lqarl! I love you guys...

29Porius
Sep 10, 2012, 1:23 pm

Thumbs for bas.

30anna_in_pdx
Edited: Sep 10, 2012, 1:32 pm

29: Absolutely, a tour de force. ETA in case you don't notice it is on the hot reviews here is the link
http://www.librarything.com/work/255284/reviews/89640178

31Macumbeira
Sep 10, 2012, 2:54 pm

Bas is our last remaining alpha Male. Awesome review !

32Macumbeira
Sep 10, 2012, 2:56 pm

I am so dog tired, i cannot even review my review drafts.
Watsamattawithme ?

33baswood
Sep 10, 2012, 7:14 pm

Great stuff anna - thumbed.

I was wondering where the phrase Man Up comes from. some of my friends are always telling me to "Man Up" I don't know what they mean.

34tomcatMurr
Sep 11, 2012, 9:23 pm

Great Stuff, Anna, thumbed! and Baz, thumbed. I'm all thumbs today. wooohoooo!

35Porius
Sep 12, 2012, 12:24 am

Why their comment holds no meaning, bas. Tell them to go pf--k themselves.

36anna_in_pdx
Sep 12, 2012, 12:32 am

It means what "be a man" means... which is to say, nothing...

37RickHarsch
Sep 12, 2012, 6:16 am

Though, to be fair, sometimes 'man up' can be used to say 'be honest', 'admit it'...

38tomcatMurr
Sep 12, 2012, 6:19 am

Baz, it means they want to see your penis to check if it's longer or shorter than theirs. When you hear it, you should whip out your tape measure and invite them to go first.

hope that helps.

39baswood
Sep 12, 2012, 6:42 am

lol

40RickHarsch
Sep 12, 2012, 11:51 am

And come to think of it, what kind of friend would say 'man up', anyway?

TC: why do you suppose we don't have a sheath like my dog (the male) has?

41tomcatMurr
Sep 12, 2012, 12:29 pm

human anatomy is a bit of a mystery to me, rick. :)

42RickHarsch
Sep 12, 2012, 1:48 pm

Well, as long as you can figure it as you go along...

43Macumbeira
Sep 12, 2012, 2:05 pm

What is this ? Discussing manliness without me ?

44RickHarsch
Sep 12, 2012, 2:25 pm

Well, you know, having met you and all...

45RickHarsch
Sep 12, 2012, 2:25 pm

By the way, how did this thread suddenly become simply THE PIMPS?

46Macumbeira
Sep 12, 2012, 3:05 pm

You have got it all wrong, it is not penish length, it is balls !

47RickHarsch
Sep 12, 2012, 3:27 pm

Or marbles, whatever the case may be.

48dchaikin
Sep 14, 2012, 8:53 am

If everything is really about sex, then such is very deeply and skillfully concealed here, but still getting pimped.

Murr on Victor Serge: http://www.librarything.com/review/37442456

Club Read's Steven03tx on John Lyly: http://www.librarything.com/work/7623103

49Macumbeira
Sep 16, 2012, 4:45 pm

pimping Robert Byron's Oxiana at last :

http://www.librarything.com/work/237867/reviews/25026615

50RickHarsch
Sep 16, 2012, 5:10 pm

Not only a great review, Mac, it actually made me determined to acquire and read the book.

51anna_in_pdx
Sep 16, 2012, 6:30 pm

Me too, sounds like it is a treasury of info about Islamic architecture, an interest of mine.

52Macumbeira
Sep 17, 2012, 12:26 am

thanks Rick and Anna

Anna, there is something wrong with the link to your homepage.

53Porius
Sep 17, 2012, 1:13 am

Read it tomorrow. Thumbs. Work and family have all my time.

54dchaikin
Sep 17, 2012, 9:57 am

You seem to be slowing making your way around the world by foot. Wonderful review. You've already hooked me on Chatwin, maybe R. Byron too...

55anna_in_pdx
Sep 17, 2012, 11:27 am

52: Thanks! I have not updated that blog since 2010 and in the meantime Blogspot seems to have changed all the url's. I have fixed it. I should try to start writing again, but am so distractable these days.

56Macumbeira
Sep 17, 2012, 11:50 am

54 one step at the time, sampling rocks and plants along the way

57baswood
Sep 17, 2012, 5:55 pm

Effervescent indeed - thumbs for Mac and the cat.

58RickHarsch
Sep 17, 2012, 7:09 pm

mac have you read Arabia Deserta?

59tomcatMurr
Sep 17, 2012, 9:54 pm

Mac, that is a brilliant review. this book is going right onto my amazon wish list. Your review made me want to read the book immediately, but more important, made me want to go to the places Byron went to. One of my Taiwanese friends recently went to Uzbekistan, and his photos of the mosques and architecture there made me realise how glorious Muslim art is. (shame that the religion itself is so fucking awful, but there you go...)

We should have a thread devoted to Muslim architecture.

60Macumbeira
Sep 23, 2012, 11:26 am

Bas, can you please announce your reviews on this thread ? I hate it to be last one thumbing !

61Porius
Sep 23, 2012, 11:33 am

thumbed

62sibylline
Oct 10, 2012, 7:43 pm

How many get to hear great-grandpa described to as a 'soggy bandaid attached to T.R's side'? - The review you want is the third one down, Island of Vice: Theodore Roosevelt's Quest to Clean Up Sin-Loving New York. HERE

63Porius
Oct 10, 2012, 8:08 pm

Thumbed.

64tomcatMurr
Oct 10, 2012, 9:51 pm

yep, thumbed too, how nice to read about your ancestor like that!

65anna_in_pdx
Oct 10, 2012, 11:22 pm

How neat, your story within a story makes for a great review.

66sibylline
Oct 11, 2012, 7:05 am

Thanks. I almost fell off the Northway at 75 mph - and I'd always thought the bicycle story was probably just a story, my family likes to mythologize itself. I thought you all might enjoy it more than most.

67RickHarsch
Oct 11, 2012, 7:20 am

Excellent review--the personal aspect inserted well, serving to provide compelling detail. This is a book I will buy when I am employed again or money snows my way.

68baswood
Oct 11, 2012, 6:16 pm

What a story! sibyx - thumbed

69dchaikin
Oct 15, 2012, 4:33 pm

sibyx - Great story, enjoyed that.

70sibylline
Oct 15, 2012, 4:37 pm

Thank you all.

71Macumbeira
Oct 18, 2012, 10:17 am

shamelessly pimping a fantastic writer to be discovered

http://www.librarything.com/work/1524426/reviews/90444821

72RickHarsch
Oct 18, 2012, 1:37 pm

Very thoughtful, generous review, Mac.

73Macumbeira
Oct 18, 2012, 2:18 pm

thanks Rick !

74Porius
Oct 18, 2012, 2:51 pm

I agree.

75Macumbeira
Oct 18, 2012, 3:48 pm

Thanks Por !

76tomcatMurr
Oct 18, 2012, 9:13 pm

monotheistic Gods, who are invented by the wicked, to amplify and manipulate in an evil way the few unimportant differences that separate us from our fellow men.

Well said! Great review mac. hurrah!

77Macumbeira
Oct 19, 2012, 12:54 am

wohooooooooooooooooooooooo

78baswood
Oct 19, 2012, 8:02 pm

Late to your excellent review Mac. I agree Norman Lewis was a great travel writer.

79RickHarsch
Oct 20, 2012, 6:59 am

Mac, please translate #77

80Macumbeira
Oct 20, 2012, 9:54 am

Ah, mon chèr Rick,

There once was a damsel named Naughty
Whose reputation was that of a hottie
She flashed with her boobs,
While reading her books
Till Tim took her out for a quickie

http://www.librarything.com/profile/thenaughtyhottie

81dchaikin
Oct 20, 2012, 2:00 pm

Thumbed the review, but questioning your rhyming schemes.

82Macumbeira
Edited: Oct 20, 2012, 3:38 pm

Thanks for thumb

it sounds ok, but maybe it is technically not ok ?

A
A
B
B
A

83RickHarsch
Oct 20, 2012, 4:21 pm

There once was a damsel named Naughty
Whose reputation was that of a hottie
Boobs over books
regardless of looks
she was ousted for being so snotty

84Porius
Oct 20, 2012, 4:52 pm

there was once a hoyden gnamed hottie
who mistook the wereld for a pottie
she looked into a book
and cried fook fook fook fook
and now she's taken to karate

85tomcatMurr
Oct 20, 2012, 10:18 pm

there was a young lass named the hottie
who had a mind like a potty
she thought people with books
were a bunch of kooks
till one of them smacked her on the botty

86Porius
Oct 20, 2012, 10:42 pm

there is an old bitch named the hottie
who is just a little bit dottie
she came to the swim
shouting simsimsollabim
and now she flies out of the body

87Porius
Oct 20, 2012, 11:04 pm

one more?

there was an old tart called the hottie
who is batshit & grizzled & grotty
she came round one day
in her usual way
and fray after fray she scored spotty

88Macumbeira
Oct 20, 2012, 11:38 pm

haha didn't see this coming !

89RickHarsch
Oct 21, 2012, 7:18 am

Murr said haha didn't see this coming!
for I here was with the hottie slumming
I threw down my fat book
on finding her rank nook
and gloried in my newfound down dumbing

90baswood
Oct 24, 2012, 11:30 am

pimping my review of The Vivisector by Patrick White

91Macumbeira
Oct 24, 2012, 1:51 pm

Nice work Bas, thumbed with a "coup de pouce"

92sibylline
Oct 24, 2012, 2:17 pm

I'm sold. Enticing review.

93Porius
Oct 24, 2012, 2:21 pm

Thumbed

94dchaikin
Oct 24, 2012, 2:28 pm

I'm only halfway through, but the thumb is there.

95RickHarsch
Oct 24, 2012, 3:38 pm

I also couped de pouce

96tomcatMurr
Oct 24, 2012, 8:20 pm

awesome work, bas.Thumbed.

97tomcatMurr
Nov 3, 2012, 9:44 pm

Let's give lots of thumbs to our erstwhile leader's review of DFW's bio.

http://www.librarything.com/work/12430864/reviews/89385402

98RickHarsch
Edited: Nov 5, 2012, 6:20 am

Thanks for the referral, cat.

99dchaikin
Nov 6, 2012, 1:10 pm

#97 - A great review.

100ChocolateMuse
Nov 8, 2012, 7:35 pm

MM on Anna K: http://www.librarything.com/work/2340/reviews/91349150

Messier than War and Peace... I'm glad you said that, it means I might bring myself to read W&P one day.

101MeditationesMartini
Nov 8, 2012, 7:43 pm

I guess I meant the characters are messier; structurally, W/P is pretty messy with the efflorescence of Tolstoy's philosophy of history towards the end. Thanks, Choco!

102ChocolateMuse
Nov 8, 2012, 7:46 pm

It's a great review as always.

Oh well, I still might read W&P all the same.

103tomcatMurr
Nov 8, 2012, 7:47 pm

you might? choco, YOU WILL!!!!!!!

good job, martini

104sibylline
Nov 8, 2012, 9:51 pm

Awesome review, E.F. Perhaps wisely discreet of Max to play it straight?

105Macumbeira
Nov 8, 2012, 10:48 pm


Always been a fan of MM... Thumbed!

106RickHarsch
Nov 9, 2012, 3:02 am

It's, like, Martin is like the only reviewer who can, like, you know, write well using, like, well, you know...

107MeditationesMartini
Nov 9, 2012, 4:00 am

kulaks?

108RickHarsch
Nov 9, 2012, 5:51 am

thanks, Martin, but for what?

109RickHarsch
Nov 9, 2012, 5:52 am

shit, sorry, I was thinking of kudos

110anna_in_pdx
Nov 9, 2012, 11:00 am

106: His writing style reminds me a bit of DFW's.

111MeditationesMartini
Nov 9, 2012, 12:23 pm

The people in the house I'm staying at believe strongly that it is a gathering place for unquiet spirits. Maybe Wallace is here, pulling us in positive directions.

112Porius
Nov 29, 2012, 9:30 pm

Thumb for Bas. Another fine effort.

113ChocolateMuse
Nov 30, 2012, 1:10 am

Por is probably referring to The Eye of the Storm: http://www.librarything.com/work/25898/reviews/91836471

Or maybe The Green Child: http://www.librarything.com/work/710024/reviews/91913962

Both awesome reviews.

114tomcatMurr
Dec 1, 2012, 9:50 pm

yes, Bas outdoes himself again.

Pimping my new piece on Anthony Burgess at Open Letters Monthly:

http://www.openlettersmonthly.com/unorientalized/

The whole edition of OLM this month is devoted to Anthony Burgess. Lots of great reading for Burgess fans. Enjoy.

115A_musing
Dec 1, 2012, 11:46 pm

Very nice. Something I must pick up. Not sure you give Said enough credit, though; he has more subtlety to him. I do think your point on his MENA focus is on target, and, indeed, that he ends up in a bit of an Orientalist trap trying to deal with the non-Islamic world. I think he was conscious of that.

116A_musing
Dec 1, 2012, 11:47 pm

We should read one of the neo-Saidists sometime. I am inordinately fond of Menocal.

117sibylline
Dec 2, 2012, 8:54 am

Both reviews excellent, Bas, but second really grabbed me.

TCM - How did I miss these Burgesses? I could not read Orientalism - simply could not - and I'm fascinated by your point that he creates a ..... you know...... closed circuit, vis a vis occidental attitudes toward the orient. I will definitely be tracking these down. For some reason I'm always attracted to books about a social order breaking apart where the focus is on examining a smaller set of more or less ordinary people characters against a big backdrop, more implied than seen. - Lawrence Durrell, Naguib Mahfouz, Olivia Manning I could go on and on...

118dchaikin
Dec 2, 2012, 6:45 pm

I'll get there Murr, something to look forward to.

119baswood
Dec 2, 2012, 7:54 pm

Thanks folks,

I am pimping a new literary group that has been set up called Literary centennials. We thought it might be a nice idea to read/group read authors whose centennial birthdays occur next year. We are going to feature Albert Camus for 2013, but also some of us will be reading Robertson Davies who was also born in 1913. Come over and join the fun at http://www.librarything.com/groups/literarycentennials

120tomcatMurr
Dec 2, 2012, 9:33 pm

Thanks Sam and Sibyx.

if you enjoy Manning, you will definitely enjoy Burgess. Same kind of thing, but funnier and raunchier.

Said has been more or less discredited now:

http://www.islam-watch.com/IbnWarraq/EdwardSaid.htm
http://www.meforum.org/2069/defending-the-west

But I still think his book is necessary reading. He has many interesting ideas, and many right things to say, even though his argument is limited and limiting.

121A_musing
Edited: Dec 3, 2012, 11:04 am

Come on, Murr, you can do better than the anonymous author of such tomes as "The West is the Best"!

The Bernard Lewis/Edward Said debates were very much a formative part of my education, I learned an awful lot from each. Both are fairly dated (even with Lewis still writing, though From Babel to Dragomans would be on my short list for most interesting Western books on Islam I've read in the last decade), and both perhaps indulged their own intellectual ego perhaps a bit too much, but, boy, those were great battles.

But Said won.

122anna_in_pdx
Edited: Dec 3, 2012, 2:25 pm

I can understand the point that Said made it sound like a perfect Catch 22 for any Westerner to write about "the East" in any way, shape or form. Which is a legitimate point. But I think his corrective to the racist thinking of the Lewisites was really, really really important and overdue.

I myself am a Westerner who lived in the Middle East (Tunisia, Egypt and Saudi Arabia) for years and also lived for a short time in Nigeria. I read Orientalism and it helped me recognize some of the stereotypes I held myself. It also made me decide that I am not going to "memoirize" those experiences because I think there have been enough "white person travelogue" type memoirs in the world and I would rather hear what Egyptians, Nigerians, etc. think about their own situations.

123MeditationesMartini
Dec 3, 2012, 2:58 pm

It also made me decide that I am not going to "memoirize" those experiences because I think there have been enough "white person travelogue" type memoirs in the world and I would rather hear what Egyptians, Nigerians, etc. think about their own situations.

Yes. As they have started saying, this. It's been mildly demoralizing since I got back from Uganda (where I was working with an organization that provides support for people with HIV) that with the exception of my family, who are blasé as shit, everybody I talk to about it keeps using words like "life-changing" and "powerful" and encouraging me to write about it when they know I can't even finish my master's thesis. As if we need one more self-congratulatory "my summer of authenticity" essay in this distracted world. And of course everyone's just trying to relate using what they've got, and lord knows I'm ignorant as well, but yeah, it's been surprising the degree to which everyone wants a white Virgil--"What do think about the situation in the Congo, Martin? Do you think it's so sad about the violence and the poverty? Can we perhaps blame colonialism?" and I'm like uhhhh let me tell you the two facts that I know and follow up with a safari anecdote from a place I've actually been. Where's Sub-Saharan Africa's Said? He or she is doing a terrible job.

124tomcatMurr
Dec 3, 2012, 8:04 pm

121 what's your point sam? anonymous author? the piece I linked to is by Ibn Warraq. West is Best? Where does he say that? Perhaps you should actually read the article before pooooofing it off. He shows methodically and clearly how Said's methodology is flawed.

I've heard of Lewis, but not read him: I tend to stay away from Americans writing about the Middle East, the way I stay away from Creationists writing about Science: They know nothing, and only write about what they see. Also, to be honest, the whole region interests me absolutely not at all. Said's book is indicative of the way American and British intellectuals regard the world: it stops at Afghanistan, and points further East are basically ignored. Only open a newspaper and you will see what I mean. There were riots in Thailand last week. Anyone here hear about that, or know what they were about?

Said's book, as Anna said, was an important corrective to the racism inherent in the way most Americans think about the world. But my point is that his ideas are just as limiting about vast tracts of the world. Does his work liberate us? No.

I for one would be interested to read about Anna and Martin's experiences, not as documents about the places they went to - Said's work has at least helped us to see that such a thing is deeply flawed, perhaps impossible- but as documents about the encounter of one sensibility with an other, about the clash or meeting of cultures, about the impact of the seen on the seer. such accounts are valuable and interesting, it seems to me, and if the consequence of Said's work is that such documents are not produced, it's a loss for all concerned.

Anyway. I'm still on my porridge here.


125sibylline
Dec 3, 2012, 8:28 pm

Oh I am liking this discussion. I read a lot of memoirs for a small press and I would never set boundaries or limits of any kind around what experiences a person could or should write about. It's not about the experience but about what one makes of it, whatever it is.

126MeditationesMartini
Dec 3, 2012, 8:33 pm

>124 tomcatMurr: While the way American and British intellectuals regard the world: it stops at Afghanistan, and points further East are basically ignored has a certain undeniable truth to it, you don't actually mean the whole region interests me absolutely not at all, do you? Little hyperbole there?

And as for the red shirt riots in Thailand, the BBC website has one (1) tab for "Asia" as well as one for 'Mid-East'.

Anyway, you're not going to trick me into any new writing projects! :)

127A_musing
Edited: Dec 3, 2012, 9:33 pm

Ibn Warraq is a pretty well-known commodity; he is an annonymous, British trained, Pakistani author whose books include one titled "West is Best"; I've read some of him, and I read that article, which is part of a book he wrote on Said. He claims anonymity out of fear of being the next Rushdie. He is reasonably intelligent and well-read, but very intensely polemical, wildly anti-religious and quickly dismissive of just about everyone, and he is always 100% right. You will find, though, that he doesn't bite off the best of Said's followers - I've not seen him tackle my favorite, Menocal, for instance.

You see, I find the Middle East and Islam both fascinating - my undergraduate degree was history with a Middle Eastern concentration, though I'll confess to barely making the concentration requirements of the department. I agree that I'd love to hear of both Anna's and Martin's experience.

But to focus on his criticism of Said, I find it vague and indefinite and often not very tied down. Let's take one comment of a more objective nature: he says Said characterizes Egypt "repeatedly" as a colony instead of protectorate. It's not footnoted, so I don't know his specific reference, but I did a quick search of the word "colony" in Orientalism and find 23 results, only a handful of which relate to Egypt. One is where Said talks about growing up as an "Oriental" in two British colonies - Palestine and Egypt. I don't think the technical distinction of protectorate/colony is relevant here, and the time period involved is following the end of the protectorate and the creation of the British controlled "Kingdom"; he's talking about life as a boy both playing up to the British colonials (their schools gave him an early education) and fearing them (after all, they did have this habit of declaring martial law and marching their army around Cairo). Another is where he talks about a particular British writer's attitudes toward India and Egypt as colonies - again, not a place where he is talking historically about the country's political history or organization, but instead he is talking about a particular person's approach toward both the Raj and the Protectorate, broadly called colonies, looked at from London. I don't think ibn Warraq is really giving us a successful "debunking", but these are the kinds of usages he is getting all hot and bothered about. That particularly criticism raised my eyebrow, since usually it's just as bad an idea for a Pakistani to debate someone who grew up in Egypt about Egyptian history as it is for an American to debate a Brit about British history (acknowledging, however, that the rule doesn't hold for Americans, who do a great job of not knowing their own history).

None of that, of course, is at all relevant toward your use of Said, which I was just saying didn't quite give Said enough credit for his complexity. Said loved Western literature - it is what he taught his whole life, he was an English Prof. - and he also enjoyed Westerners trying to learn about his culture - after all, he mostly taught to Westerners. As a Palestinian Christian by birth, with a western training, he watched a whole culture he loved get subsumed by Islam. But he regularly gets characterized as somehow forbidding or preventing or criticizing the study of other cultures by the West, just because he has the chagrin to ask them to challenge their minds a bit more than they have. Ibn Warraq starts off noting Said's praise of William Jones, for example, but forgets that later on. The best of Said's followers delve into to the particular bits of myopia the West had in approaching particular societies, like Menocal discussing the refusal of Romance linguists to credit Arab influences in early Spanish poetry, and use his method to open our eyes. As you said, he had many interesting things and many right things to say, which is about all any of us could ever ask be said in praise of us. But when you go on to say "his argument" is kind of "limiting", I'd suggest those limitations are more often his readers' than ones he'd advocate himself. (Well, except on a few occassions when he was in a foul mood).

By the way, I ordered the Burgess. I'd recommend Lewis some time, he is really pretty interesting. Anna called him racist, but I'd defend him from that. He was a Jewish scholar delving into Islamic history, particularly Turkish history, and was in many ways very open minded for someone out of his mileau.

128A_musing
Dec 4, 2012, 7:53 am

Setting aside Said, and getting to Martin and Anna, I tend to think outsiders visiting a place often can give insight not so easily available to the locals, even if there are many cases where there's a myopia resulting from your own perspective. But it's always more interesting as a two-sided conversation.

129tomcatMurr
Dec 4, 2012, 10:09 am

He claims anonymity out of fear of being the next Rushdie.

well, given the murderousness of Islam, he's probably right to do so. Good post. Said is more complex than I have given him credit for, you're right, but I had to extract salient points to make an argument. which is not to say that I am backing down from that argument.

as for Martin in 126, I'm interested why you think it's hyperbole. I really am not interested at all. History there simply repeats itself in a cycle of violence and retribution, endlessly boring and hopeless. And it seems to have far greater prominence in the Western media than its real status on the world stage would warrant. I read your surprise at my lack of interest is a result of endless brainwashing by the media, to the extent where an interest in that part of the world and their sorry problems is regarded as a cultural norm - a default setting- , and any one who doesn't have this interest, is looked on as outrageous, or hyperbolic.

It amazes me living here how the Western media focusses so much on a tiny corner of the Eastern Med where a pocketful of people are constantly at each other's throats. I cancelled my subscription to the London Review of Books because it got to the point where every edition was about Palestine or Israel. Why should I be interested in it? Millions of people around the globe are not interested in it. Why is the West so utterly fixated on it to the point where the slightest incident (another boring suicide bomb, for example, or another tedious rocket attack on Gaza) makes the front pages ON A DAILY BASIS? There are other things going on in the world, which impact many more people, and which are potentially much more threatening to world peace. Daiyoutais, anyone?

Well, we know the reason why of course.

rant over. thanks for reading my review, anyway, and I hope you enjoy Burgess, Sam. It's a romp and a hoot apart from all the Orientalist stuff.

130A_musing
Edited: Dec 4, 2012, 11:36 am

I actually get particularly upset at the centrality of Israel/Palestine to any discussion of the Middle East. It's a small part of a big part of the world. And I'm only slightly less bored and/or upset by oil-focused analyses.

But I'm not going to try to sell someone on developing an interest in a part of the world that hasn't attracted them - there's just too much going on in too many places. I have two sisters who have spent most of their lives in and out of different parts of Africa (one mostly in West Africa, one more in Southern Africia) but I just don't get excited by or deeply involved in the region or its culture, and have never been there. I only recently got more seriously interested in the part of the world you live in, and am swimming wildly trying to get some basics.

But if you want a good reason for interest in Middle Eastern culture in general, it is an interest that simply offends many Europeans and Americans, and that alone is worth it. My wife recently ticked off some very kind hosts in Spain by pointing out some fascinating Islamic architectural elements in some of the churches ("repurposed" from Mosques) and then I committed the faux pas of talking about Arabic influences when we were chatting Quixote (I mean, come on, he presents the book as written by an Arab!) - those little cultural tweaks were kind of fun, and the offense taken is very telling. There is nothing more forbidden in today's America than having a sincere interest in Islam and/or Arabic culture. Absent, of course, a willingness to endlessly rant about its deficiencies, a la Warraq.

131anna_in_pdx
Dec 4, 2012, 11:36 am

This is a really interesting conversation. It is funny how different people gravitate to different parts of the world.

I've never had people tell me they're actually *offended* by my interest in Arabic language and culture, Sam. How weird. Maybe they figure they'd offend ME since I was married to an Egyptian and have two sons with Arabic names, so they go lightly around me and hide their prejudice?

132A_musing
Dec 4, 2012, 11:41 am

I'm actually shocked you haven't gotten blowback on it. If somehow it comes up in conversation that I had a Middle East speciality to my history degree, the immediate assumption is I studied Israel for 4 years, and things then go downhill from there in most cases. And I live in a part of the country that is very liberal and open in general.

133tomcatMurr
Dec 4, 2012, 7:35 pm

it is strange. Maybe it's because of where you both live? Pacific coast, Atlantic coast?

Where's martini, I hope I haven't offended him.

134anna_in_pdx
Dec 4, 2012, 7:39 pm

My son did get called a "terrorist" once anonymously in a class exercise (his name is Osama) during his high school years. His teacher freaked the hell out and spent the rest of the class reaming the kids for being jerks. He was probably more embarrassed than if she had not made a big deal out of it, but probably it was good for the kid in question to hear her POV. But in general my kids have not really had to deal with any aggro from Americans about being half-Arab. If anything they probably dealt with more attention in Egypt, for being half-American. Not always negative attention, but often they just wished they weren't so obviously "foreigners."

135A_musing
Dec 4, 2012, 7:47 pm

It may well be location, it just challenges my own views about where I live compared to the rest of the country...

Yeh, Anna, that terrorist incident is what I'd kind of expect from Americans, without the teacher going ballistic on the kids at the end. We have some friends whose kids have definitely gotten some flak, and who themselves got flak pretty publicly when they went on the Hadj.

136MeditationesMartini
Dec 5, 2012, 1:43 am

Offended? Not ever, dear cat. Just been moving today is all.

I get where you're coming from, more or less. Everything factual you say, I agree with, and your evaluative statements about Said have their merit, and of course fuck corporate media. I just have trouble with "not interested at all." It never would have occurred to me not to be interested, but I don't feel brainwashed; I suppose I think of an interest in all parts of the world as a "default setting," but maybe we're just using the word "interest" differently. I'm VERY interested in the Diaoyu/Senkakus, though. Did you hear that Shintaro Ishihara is starting a new plitical party and running in the Japanese national election?

137baswood
Dec 5, 2012, 8:17 pm

TC another great article in open letters monthly, which has sparked off a great debate in the salon. Long may it continue.

138tomcatMurr
Dec 5, 2012, 10:07 pm

glad to hear it, Martini. about your move, I mean, not about Shintaro Ishihara, who is a nasty piece of work.
Thanks Bas

139Macumbeira
Dec 6, 2012, 2:17 pm

is that Shinobu Ishihara's colourfull nephew ?

140RickHarsch
Edited: Dec 7, 2012, 5:31 am

'Setting aside Said' seems to be the initiator of this discussion, which is most interesting in terms of anagrammaticals, setting aside Said he said in an aside my aides decamped were decapitated and so on...
That, Sigh, (Id), why not discuss Franz Fanon? And on and on onan?

Interestingly, the cat's disgust with the ME was expressed in virtual summary of ibn Khaldun.

Now, having Khald un myself to inject, the very fact that Said is being discussed in such terms as his having or not been of lasting worth is very much to the point Murrcat seems to be mewling from, the USA-centric view of all things. (By the way, I don't think Martin is the type to wash or have washed his brain.) I like that a little anger rose here, for it is all something to be angry about, perpetually, as the colonial imperative hasn't changed, slowed, stopped, and has been ongoing for so long and is most certainly an accurate enough way to view the US--as super colonialists (agile and dangerous capitalism, to state again my favorite Braudel quote, though he was writing about Venice). I find nuggets of distinctive intellect in all the above writers' posts, so I hope you don't get all polite and drop it, for the only--brief--boring bits above seem to be chopped tibs of politesse.
In broader strokes, I agree absolutely with Murr, if that's not obvious, but I am Sam I am, too, taking in the ME news daily, waiting for the tide to turn as it seems to be beginning to as the UN has called for the Israelis to open up to nuclear inspection and the US and UK are moving, though by force of great gravity, towards a saner approach.

Last night, I asked Arjun to name the five ex Soviet stans, and he did so with alacrity. On 'east Asia' he scored 95 to 96 on our blank map geography quiz. Certainly I am a beast for pushing a 9 year old like this, but he doesn't resist and seems to understand when I tell him that at least he'll never be the most ignorant son of a bitch in the bar.

ramble, ramble

141RickHarsch
Dec 7, 2012, 5:34 am

The 95, by the way, was for having to hit myandmyburma twice because the first time the computer thought lower Burmbum was its neighbor. So really 96 of 96.

142anna_in_pdx
Dec 7, 2012, 11:07 am

I read Wretched of the Earth last year because I was sure I had read it before and found that I had not. It's pretty bleak. And of course it's a bit dated... But I think important reading.

Your Arjun is a lot like our Jack, who loves to be quizzed on geography and was in the state geography bee (we did not know there was such a thing) last year when he was in 8th grade.

143RickHarsch
Dec 7, 2012, 11:19 am

Jack, eh? I bet he's a half-Arab Said lover!

144anna_in_pdx
Edited: Dec 7, 2012, 11:26 am

No, I doubt he's ever heard of Said as he is Chris' kid, not mine and thus does not even have "half arab" going for him.

The half arabs I spawned have probably not heard of Said either, since one is totally nonacademic and is currently in Job Corps learning to fight forest fires, and the other is a math major who tries to avoid any liberal arts type subjects in spite of his mom's opinions that they are good and he should take them. If I had not been around while they were being born I would wonder if they were related to me. Such is parenthood.

ETA: The funny thing about Chris' kids is that they are both named derivatives of "John" - one is Sean, one is Jack. Sean is named for John Lennon's kid (his middle name is Zappa) and Jack (Patrick) is named for Jack Aubrey in the Patrick O'Brian novels as well as Patrick himself.

145RickHarsch
Dec 7, 2012, 11:35 am

Anna,

What was the point of all your years in the ME if you can't even convert your step-children into Arabs?

146MeditationesMartini
Dec 7, 2012, 12:05 pm

Last night, I asked Arjun to name the five ex Soviet stans, and he did so with alacrity. On 'east Asia' he scored 95 to 96 on our blank map geography quiz. Certainly I am a beast for pushing a 9 year old like this, but he doesn't resist and seems to understand when I tell him that at least he'll never be the most ignorant son of a bitch in the bar.


This is so important. Knowing map stuff and animals is, like, the kid version of being a respected public intellectual.

147anna_in_pdx
Dec 7, 2012, 12:08 pm

It's also very cool kid cred to know names of dinosaurs.

148MeditationesMartini
Dec 7, 2012, 12:08 pm

>147 anna_in_pdx: omg, how could I forget dinosaurs. And space.

149MeditationesMartini
Dec 7, 2012, 12:09 pm

They actually know way more than us, and I'm not talking about the 'wisdom of innocence'.

150A_musing
Dec 7, 2012, 12:27 pm

Rick, someday, when I want by Slovenia, I'm going to quiz Arjun on all the heros and anti-heros of the Mahabharta. Will you have him prepared?

151A_musing
Dec 7, 2012, 12:32 pm

Fanon is just wildly dated, but still essential. It is at least a much quicker read than anything Said ever wrote.

152RickHarsch
Dec 7, 2012, 12:41 pm

Sammy, he is ready

153anna_in_pdx
Dec 7, 2012, 12:41 pm

150: I bet Chris' kids might know a few of those, Chris talks about them enough! :)

154RickHarsch
Dec 8, 2012, 3:13 am

That's the thing, 'wildly dated', as if nothing happened.

155tomcatMurr
Dec 8, 2012, 8:54 am

>146 MeditationesMartini:

Martini
While they're all bashing you over on the other thread, I'll just tell you that it strikes me that you will make a great father.

But get your master's done first, eh?

156MeditationesMartini
Dec 8, 2012, 1:28 pm

I'm a ticking time bomb! Gonna get knocked up by some douchebag in a Burger King bathroom for sure.

But thanks, TC, that means a lot. I have actual words on paper now! One of them is passim.

157MeditationesMartini
Dec 8, 2012, 1:46 pm

Oh hey you guys, I think this review is kinda blah but but it is positive and so the author looked me up on facebook and asked me, with blandishments, if he could share it wi the world on his publisher's "popular online archive" (?) and we had a friendly interaction but I was like where's the marketing department on this one and then I was like ohhhh yeah downsized and doing piecework for pennies as part of a "content generation system" operating out of Mumbai! awesome! Anyway, it turned out he's a local boy and we know some people in common, and it was a good book and I recommend it. At his best he's Rick Harsch funny, tho he can't hold a plot so good.

158RickHarsch
Dec 8, 2012, 4:17 pm

lqarl 156.

like review

love word ruckus

159Macumbeira
Dec 9, 2012, 12:03 pm

lqrl 157

160dchaikin
Dec 12, 2012, 9:06 am

Slow on LT lately...

Murr, finally read your article on Burgess....and the discussion here afterward. Great stuff.

Martin - Back in 2004 I finished my thesis on Aug 22, two years after requesting extensions beyond the school's limits and about 15 months after I sent my adviser my I-give-up-can't-do-this letter. My daughter was born Oct 5. Nothing like a real deadline. Also, enjoyed your review.

161MeditationesMartini
Dec 12, 2012, 1:59 pm

>160 dchaikin: Ugh, so lucky. I think that's the deadline I've been waiting for. Instead I'm holing up in an apartment with a cat in a place where I don't know anybody and blocking myself off of facebook, a strategy last applied in the summer of 2011 at Peter Weissman's place in Woodstock, where it met with some degree of success until Hurricane Irene hit. It seems like removing electronic distractions in general will be a good cleansing practice. Luckily, the Salon is dead these days.

162RickHarsch
Dec 13, 2012, 5:08 am

Maybe name your thesis after a hurricane...

163Sandydog1
Dec 23, 2012, 1:41 pm

Finally got around to reading Notes from Underground and so very grateful for MM's wonderful review of same!

164MeditationesMartini
Dec 23, 2012, 2:38 pm

yaaaaaay. I'll submit that as a thesis and punctiliously follow all demands for revisions.

165A_musing
Dec 26, 2012, 11:01 am

Ya'll should read Murr's new post on Typee and Omoo over at the Lectern: http://thelectern.blogspot.com/2012/12/typee-omoo-herman-melville.html Great stuff!

166Macumbeira
Dec 26, 2012, 1:54 pm

compulsive reading

167tomcatMurr
Dec 26, 2012, 9:23 pm

thank you both.

169dchaikin
Dec 29, 2012, 8:34 am

Rewarding, Murr.

170Sandydog1
Dec 30, 2012, 1:47 pm

Forgive me for churning up more old posts, but I just finished Jesus' Son. 'Thoroughly enjoyed a wonderful review by some old, enigmatic, mysterious LT denizen by the name of EnriqueFreeque.

171solla
Feb 19, 2013, 2:59 pm

Anna has written a short review of my novella, Eggtooth, (so obviously I'm pimping the novella as well.) It's a hot review at the moment. You can read an except of the novella on Amazon or at runninggirlpress.com.

172RickHarsch
Feb 19, 2013, 3:18 pm

congratulations!

173anna_in_pdx
Feb 19, 2013, 3:28 pm

It was very fun to read. I recommend her novel too, which I think you can also read an excerpt of at the same sources.

174solla
Jun 25, 2013, 12:51 am

For anyone interested, I have just put 5 paperback copies and 10 ebook (actually iBookstore promo codes, so you need an iPad or other Apple device) each of Eggtooth and The Things that Always Were up on Member Giveaways.

175Macumbeira
Jun 25, 2013, 8:32 am

Ok Solla, I submitted my demand
Let see what I'll get ( it is so exciting ! )

176solla
Jun 25, 2013, 3:58 pm

I hope you are a winner. I think it is random.