A Dance to the Music of Time GR 2013 - January: A Question of Upbringing

Here's thread #1 for A Question of Upbringing just in time for the New Year.



Happy reading everyone, I hope we'll all enjoy the experience!!

The main thread is here: http://www.librarything.com/topic/147074

I added the book to the January TIOLI challenge #8: Read a book that is part of a limited series

How soon is everybody starting?

Hi Peggy, I've already read Chapter One! I just wanted a little sneak preview to see if I was going to like it. No worries there. ;-)

I am planning to start today - that is on January 1st which started here 1.5 hours ago. Maybe chapter one as a good night read if I can keep my eyes open long enough? :-)

Started chapter one before going to bed last night. Last year, when I tried to listen to the audio version of the first three volumes I often got distracted, and one section I almost totally missed were those first 1.5 pages where Powell refers to Poussin's painting:



A question for the English speaking readers: what does it mean that "Widmerpool had no colours" - is this an academical expression?

Hello everybody! I'm just here to sign in for the first round. I still have to "arrive" in the new year and get everything in order, but I hope that I can start soon with A Question of Upbringing.

Happy New Year everyone, and happy reading in 2013..

Good luck with "A Dance to the Music of Time". I first read it thirty years ago and have re-read the sequence many times since then.

I'm hoping to get volume 1 tomorrow, when the library reopens. Nathalie, I'll try and get back to you on the Widmerpool reference when I've read it. Thanks for setting up the thread!

I haven't yet got my copy but assuming it arrives within the next few days I should be starting next week. Not sure about the 'colours' expression out of context - hopefully someone else can answer that who has a copy.

I've just got my Kindle copy of this, and am looking forward to starting it. I've still got about 40% left of Les Mis to read, so am planning to finish that first, but if the end of the month is looming I might stop short to get this one read. Very much looking forward to it!

With regard to "Colours" I'm pretty sure this refers to sporting honours which are awarded at British Universities. This started out at Oxford and Cambridge (where the only "colour" was Blue) but now many universities and some Secondary schools award "colours" in various sports.

It is basically recognition of a student performing consistently at the top level of a sport at that institution. You would usually get half colours first and then eventually full colours in recognition of long commitment and/or high performance.

So, for example, when I was at school I was awarded Half Colours in Rugby after my first year and playing with the first XV and full colours at the end of my second year. The "colour" technically refers to the institution's signature colour (in my case royal blue) but the award took the form of a small label and then a full shield that was sewn onto the blazer.

Hope that makes sense! For more info try here

10: Jonny, your explanation makes perfect sense. Poor Widmerpool trained hard and participated in a variety of sports but didn't excel in any of them.

5: Thanks, Nathalie, for posting that gorgeous picture.

Thanks for the explanation re 'colours'. As a non-sporty person, I had not heard that phrase at all, though I had come across the Oxbridge Blue/Half Blue.

Oh, I'd love to join in on this! I have the first volume somewhere in the house, and have to finish Anna Karenina first, but hopefully I can pop back in here later!

#6-10+13 Kathy, James, Susan, Genny, Johnny, Tania: welcome to the GR - great you are joining us!!

Jonny: thank you so much for providing this detailed explanation! As Donna says, it makes perfect sense with poor Widmerpool.

As some of you know, this is my second try with the series. Last year I bought vols 1-3 as audio books and while I enjoyed them I felt I missed a lot. I am now in the middle of chapter one (I had already forgotten how long those chapters are...), and now I know why I had those difficulties.

The structure of Powell's sentences is different from what you usually find in English literature and it makes it hard to follow the text on audio if English is not your native language. Even now I often have to reread passages to fully understand them, but I am sure I'll soon get used to his style. Although I am not yet far in, I already found so much interesting stuff that somehow just wasn't processed by my brain the first time. I know it's early to say that, but so far I'm loving the book!

I've picked up book 1 this morning so hope to start it in the next few days. The library has the whole set, so I'm hoping no-one else wants them this year and they're all sitting there waiting for me month by month!

I stumbled onto this thread yesterday and am so glad I did. I was trying to decide what book to begin 2013 with and A Question of Upbringing just seemed right. I'm only a few pages in but hope to make a bigger dent today, as I am off from work.

ETA: Touchstone seems not to want to work....

"Colours" are still confusing - my Youngest Child got given them this year at school as part of a team that had done well and it seemed to consist of a small coloured enamel badge... But it is definitely a sporting award!

At some schools and colleges the award of "colours" entitled the recipient to wear a special tie - at my own school the "colours tie" was green with the school crest on it, instead of the customary school tie of red and blue diagonal stripes.

Sadly, like Widmerpool, my performance never reached that level (though i have to admit that I never tried anything like as hard as Widmerpool does!)

I finished the novel and found it rather slow but with so much potential. My comments on it are here.

As I was reading it, I kept having the image of planets and moons and overlapping orbits in my head...

I finished chapter 3 today, and I'd agree it is slow, but as you say, the potential is obvious. This is the introductory book and those characters will dance in and out of Jenkins' life..

Once I've finished part I and got my thoughts together I'd like to ask some questions about that whole class system. So far I have no idea where to place Jenkins (or most of the others).

I am on Chapter 2 but looking forward to this journey.

I have ended up with a duplicate copy of this book, in an omnibus edition with the next two. Available to a good home for any one who has not yet got a copy (or perhaps who has not yet got the second and third novels.

Katie, I know that AP is beaming down on you from on high or wherever he is! He would love the planets and moons moving through their orbits as a response to his book. I started the first novel and will remember to pick it up again soon so as not to be left behind. I know that I was such a little romantic the first time I read it that it took most of this novel and maybe #2 to get into my dim brain that Widmerpool was going to be the main focus. (I was in love with Stringham.)

>#22:
gennyt;
I only just found out about this group today and would love to join in if your duplicate omnibus is yet available. I would truly like to have it please.

Thanks, Peggy!

=24 Belva, you are the first to request it, so it is yours. Pm me your address.

I'm excited that we're off!!! I'm reading on my Kindle too since my omnibus copies are falling apart from multiple readings by friends and relatives. I posted on the main thread and will again here that I also have Hilary Spurling's Invitation to the Dance, which was useful in identifying the Dolly Sisters (Jenny and Rosie), who were dancers born in 1892.
I don't have any way to discover a couple of things that interested me. Templer says of Widmerpool, "He was so wet you could shoot snipe off him." I know about being wet, but what about the snipe reference? And another guy says of Le Bas, "he got his Leander the same time as my father." What's that? Jonny? James? Somebody?
Yay! Belva is going to join us!!!
I'm only starting the second chapter now, so I'll be back.

Peggy, I assumed "He was so wet you could shoot snipe off him." was simply alluding to the fact that snipe are waders and would be hunted in wet habitat - but I just googled snipe hunting and look what I found!:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipe_hunt

So this reference to the possibilities of sending someone on fool's errands/wild goose chases makes much more sense of their attitude to Widmerpool.

#27 I've got to admit that I've not heard of the phrase "getting Leander" or similar, but given the context, it could well be a reference to Leander Rowing club, one of the more prestigious English University rowing clubs.

It's a complete guess really, but gaining membership to the club could be referred to as having "got leander" but really I have no idea!

Leander Club

I finished the first volume a couple of days ago and am very much looking forward to the rest! I love the choice of character names in this book. Widmerpool is a particularly descriptive and evocative choice!

@27,28 and 29

Hi Peggy,

My understanding of Templer's dismissive jibe, "He's so wet that you could shoot snipe off him" has always been the same as Genny says in the first sentence of her post.
However, I was fascinated by your discovery about the snipe hunt, Genny

As Jonny says, the Leander is one of the most prestigious rowing clubs. Having read the sequence a few times already i know that Le Bas is, or at least was, a keen rower.

You'd think that a club named Leander would be one for swimmers, rather than rowers, but I suppose either way water is involved!

I completely skipped over the mention of 'he got his Leander' without registering any query. I think my general tendency when reading is to ignore references I don't understand, or at best to assume I can guess roughly what they are about from the context. These group reads are good for making me stop and notice some of the details that I'd skipped over, and learn lots of new things in the process!

Until recently I worked alongside someone called Leander who also happened to be an excellent swimmer, having represented their county in competitions while at school. However, contrary to classical precedent, that particular Leander was a woman

All of this is enriching. Genny, over here I knew all about snipe hunting as searching for an object that does not exist, but I didn't know that the real snipe were waders, so that clears up a lot for me. Many thanks and also to the guys for the Leander reference. I have gotten into the second chapter, but I wasn't terribly curious about anything that I didn't recognize immediately although there were some points.
I'll just wonder whether AP chose Nick's name as an allusion and compliment to that other Nick (Carroway), the semi-engaged observer/narrator in The Great Gatsby. Anybody have an idea about that?

I have often wondered about the Nick Jenkins/Nick Carroway similarity. Nick Carroway is an observant onlooker, present at crucial episodes, but we learn very little about his own life throughout the course of "The Great Gatsby".

33/34: I hadn't picked up on the two Nicks concept but I think you could be onto something here!! Nick Carraway is as much of an outsider/observer as Nick Jenkins and when I think about the feeling I get of both characters, they seem to be me very alike.

I have now finished the first book and my review is up here:

http://kaggsysbookishramblings.wordpress.com/2013/01/13/recent-reads-a-question-...

Like others on this thread, I've probably skipped over references I don't get so the info is very useful! Thanks!

Lurking and enjoying your discussion. Like Genny I think I just ignored the passages I didn't understand but it's really fascinating to discover them here, e.g. snipes and hunting thereof.

I made a similar connection between the two Nicks in my review, though I didn't think it was necessarily intentional.

I hadn't yet made such a connection - but I've only read the first two chapters so far, so the nature of Jenkins (or the extent to which he reveals much about himself) has not become very clear yet. I hope the experience of reading this won't be too much like the Great Gatsby though, as I disliked that book very much (mind you, I did read it over 30 years ago for A level; not sure now whether it was the book, or rather the world it evoked, which I took such a dislike to).

I'll come back later to check out Karen's review. I got to read a little this afternoon, and at Amazon found this about the book that Nick is reading as he leaves the Templers before going to France....

This book contains the complete text of If Winter Comes by Arthur Stuart-Menteth Hutchinson, more popularly known as A.S.M Hutchinson. This novel, while not critically acclaimed, was very popular with the masses and was the best-selling book for all of 1922. It was subsequently made into two movies, a silent version and another version with sound during the forties, updated for that time period. Set in Southern England at the turn of the last century, the book is a work of Social Realism. It was, in many aspects, ahead of its time, dealing with an unhappy marriage, divorce, and suicide. It is the story of Mark Sabre and his descent into a series of disasters. Other interesting characters do present themselves, but all exist only to fill out the main story. Through all the bleakness and despair, hope always remains, as demonstrated by the quotation alluded to in the title, "If Winter Comes, can Spring be far behind?"

It's free on Kindle. I'm not sure I'll download it, but that's certainly my price!

That's really interesting Peggy. I don't have a Kindle but I do have the app on my PC so I might just take a look....!

Thanks for sharing that, Peggy.

I shall definitely give If Winter Comes a go :)

I finished the novella and posted a not-very-helpful review because this just seems to be setting the stage for what's to come. The writing is staggeringly beautiful though. And since I recently finished reading Anna Karenina, where an entire book was taken up with real snipe hunting, it never occurred to me that there could be another meaning. Interesting.

Am I alone in finding the purpose style awkward and rather heavy going? I'm afraid I didn't find it beautiful at all; sometimes opaque - had to reread a few sentences several times to get the sense. It didn't flow for me, but moved slowly and with a kind of ponderousness, like walking with boots weighed down with sticky mud.

It had its moments for me, Genny, but I did have to re-read many sentences. Ponderous is a good word for it.

I don't know that I'm willing to go as far as "ponderous," but if somebody wanted an example of "discursive" writing, I'd point them in AP's direction. I like the characters so much that I'm willing to follow Nick wherever he wants to take me.
I'm paying a lot of attention to Widmerpool with this reading and marking Nick's growing insights into his character. I'm about to start the 4th chapter, so I'm getting on with it!

I think I would agree with Peggy's "discursive" rather than ponderous. It took me a little while to get used to his way of writing and I found that I did have to read closely and carefully. However, once I did it was very rewarding and I started picking up on Powell's dry humour. This *is* very much an introductory book imho but it left me looking forward to encountering all the characters in later volumes.

And I'll take Peggy's hint and keep an eye on Widmerpool! :)

Probably ponderous is not quite the right word, but I'm struggling to describe how it feels to me. I usually like long complicated sentences and a discursive style, so it is not that in itself which I'm finding hard-going. I'll have to see a) whether I like it any better in the second book and b) if not whether I can put my finger on what I'm finding difficult. Not particularly liking any of the characters doesn't help (though I enjoyed the two scandinavians!) but I don't think that's it.

Genny, I don't think you could say fairer than that. I'm trying to identify with what you object to. Could it be how seriously Nick takes all of these people and how the expectation is that the reader will accept them as worthy of seriousness without any particular reason? For some reason that makes me think of Virginia Woolf and how everybody that she knew as a child was Somebody. I still have something of the provincial child's wonder that somebody I know might have a place on the world or at least the nation's stage. (You could still knock me over with a feather that a girl I played with as a child grew up to marry Isaac Stern!)
We have a huge number of important characters to meet, so I hope that you'll meet somebody that you like - or enjoy reading about - soon.

No it's definitely something about the writing style rather than content which I am struggling to like, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

I started reading this last night and couldn't figure out at first why it all seemed so familiar. Finally I remembered that I'd started it a couple of years ago at my in-laws' house after my mother-in-law recommended the series, but I didn't dare borrow her set because it's a gorgeous hardcover (possibly?) first edition!! Since then I've been meaning to dive back in, but it's been so long that I'd forgotten that first toe-dip. I'm enjoying it, but I think it will be much more manageable to read one volume per month. I can see myself bogging down if I tried to read through all at once. So thanks for the motivation and the opportunity to share in discussion here!

I finished the first book and thought it was a good introduction. Here are some of the comments I put on my thread. They're not very well thought out and are mainly for a memory aid. I decided to wait and add the first three books in the First Movement to my library in March rather than list the individual books...

The first part of the dance was very slow but I'm sure we'll be jitterbugging along some time in the near future! As with any behemoth, it takes time to get to know it. Nick Jenkins is a great tour guide. He is an observer and chronicler of the life around him in England circa 1922. I'm not adding this book to my LT library at this time and will summarize it here mostly for my benefit as it will be next month before I read the next book in the series. Nothing much happens but some people might think that Spoilers Lurk in the events I outline...read at your own risk!

Summary:

A Question of Upbringing consists of four chapters. In the first one, Jenkins (Powell mostly uses young men's last names) introduces us to two of the students at his boarding school - Stringham and Templer. This is an exclusive school so all the boys come from money, but Stringham seems particularly well situated. Templer is the womanizer of the trio. Supporting characters are a student on the fringe, Widmerpool, and the headmaster LeBas and Uncle Giles.

It's interesting in Part 2 that Jenkins gets to meet the families of both Stringham and Templer, but we still know little about our narrator. In the next chapter, Nick is in France staying with friends of the family and gets to know Widmerpool in a different setting. He is still the odd man out but plays a role in settling a dispute among two other guests. He is a young man of principle and stands up for his beliefs.

Finally, we follow Jenkins to University. He is the only one of the quartet of boarding school students we've met who goes on to higher learning. He wants to be a writer and continues regaling the reader with stories. The most memorable new character is Professor Sillery who hosts afternoon teas for his students. He also meets up with Stringham and Templer again with humorous results.

My Thoughts:

I love the writing...very upper crust and dense. One might even say Powell is long-winded! It was not difficult to follow once I got accustomed to his style, and it does make me feel very British. ;-)

So far Widmerpool is the most interesting character to me. He is not socially adept but doesn't let that stop him from taking part in things. He even tried to make his mark in sports despite having no talent in that area. I look forward to seeing what his role will be in the book. I also look forward to learning more about Jenkins and his mysterious Uncle Giles.

I just commented on your thread, Donna, but want to repeat it here - this is a great summary/review.

Genny - the ponderous or long-winded or (?) writing is what made it almost impossible for me to follow this book on audio. And even this time with the paper copy I had to reread whole sections. This isn't spontaneous writing, it is a composition of words, certainly made for effect. I liked it much better this second time, maybe also because (after also having listened to books 2 and 3 last year) I have an idea about the 'bigger picture'.

I remember that the first time I felt irritated by the lack of emotion in this book. Those are teenage boys, and whatever they do, they are so controlled and 'blasé'. How can they keep this up? No roaring laughter, no desperate heartache, all we get is some mild amusement. There is so much distance between people and I felt glad that I didn't grow up like that, in a world where even in the direct relationship with your parents you have to apply irony and not much else to show how grown-up you are. Maybe it plays a role that this is set shortly after WWI.

Of the 4 chapters I found the third (France) the easiest to read, probably because Jenkins is most involved in the non-action here and is not just watching. On my first try I found chapter 4 with all the new characters almost impossible to follow and also this time it was the hardest bit for me. There's something in this part that over-stretches my brain. Still, when it was finished, I wanted to read on.

It'll be interesting to see if Jenkins ever manages to make a living by reading (or writing). Although we don't know much about his family at this point, they must be very rich, if he can afford to follow that road while Templer and Widmerpool take "real jobs" that early.

I enjoyed the chapter set in France most, too. I agree, we learn a (little) bit more about Jenkins then, although the idea of making a living from writing is something he says he only thinks up on the spot when challenged by Widmerpool. But the fact that he enjoys reading novels (which Widmerpool thinks is a waste of time) did make me have some affection for him!

I'm enjoying all the comments. Thanks, ladies! Was anybody else a bit surprised to find that Nick is reading history? At Amazon I also found this about The Green Hat that Nick was reading when Quiggin visited his set (is that right, Genny?):
"The Green Hat perfectly reflects the atmosphere of the 1920s—the post-war fashion for verbal smartness, youthful cynicism, and the spirit of rebellion of the "bright young things" of Mayfair. Iris Storm, femme fatale, races around London and Europe in her yellow Hispano-Suiza surrounded by romantic intrigue, but beneath the glamour she is destined to be a tragic heroine. A perfect synecdoche, in fact: as the hat is to the woman, so the words of the title are to an entire literary style. The success of the novel when it was first published in 1924 led to its adaptation for the screen, with Greta Garbo starring as Iris Storm."
I paid most attention to this reviewer: "I doubt that I've ever encountered a style more pretentious than Arlen's. I enjoyed (mildly) some of his short stories; one can stomach this kind of "verbal smartness," as the professional reviewer puts it, for a few pages. But when Arlen stretches it to novel length, the result is upset stomach and heartburn. In fact, The Green Hat is nothing more than a short story stretched to 300 pages through the use of fancy writing."
I believe I'll let this one pass.

Thanks for that, Peggy. Fascinating. I recall that Quiggin say that he doesn't expect to like it but promises to tell Nick what he thinks of the writing. It's a shame that we never get to hear his judgement!

Michael Arlen's book was one of the earliest chronicles of the Bright Young People of the 1920s and there is a very good study of them by D.J. Taylor - which I reviewed on my blog here:

http://kaggsysbookishramblings.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/recent-reads-bright-youn...

Powell was fringe BYP and I suspect there will be more of that kind of milieu to come in future volumes. I confess to having The Green Hat on my tbr - but then I tend to like fancy writing and having a love for Beverley Nichols!

Finally started this today! Although I had to take a break before I even got through the first chapter and check out this thread for some encouragement. I am hating the use of colons and semi colons. I've been spoiled with straight forward sentence structures in my last few books so that it is hard to get my brain to figure these ones out. I'm sure it will just take a little getting used to. And glad to hear some positive thoughts and people anticipating the next books!

Welcome to the group, Alicia! Hope you get to a point that you enjoy AP's ramblings!
(I am having the opposite problem with my current ER ARC, The Inbetween People: too straightforward. Lots of sentence fragments. And then when she does write a longer sentence, it may be just a handful of comma splices, I don't like them, I tried to discourage my high school students from writing like this, and sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, I guess I'm just too old for some modern fiction.

58: "I guess I'm just too old for some modern fiction."

LOL! I feel exactly like that most of the time when I pick up a modern novel in a bookshop! Glad it's not just me......!