Discussion - Episode 409: "Guess What's Coming to Dinner" (SPOILERS)

I hope fanny doesn't mind if I just start the thread. MHO: Great in parts, kinda incoherent in others.

I need to re-watch it (friends were chatting through most of the airing last night), but first impressions:

- Who (and how) was double-crossing who wasn't explained particularly clearly.

- What kind of bizarre obsession does Michael Angeli have with making Tori into a whore?

- I'm not great at judging kids' ages, but Hera has got to be one of the oldest two-year-olds in existence. Other than that, though, marvelously creepy.

- Gorgeous, gorgeous shot of the resurrection hub. Some of the best CGI they've done recently.

fyrefly, I'm in total agreement with everything you say. I watched it twice and couldn't figure ot the double-crosses.

I loved the Gaeta song. Juliani can bring not only the vocal chops, but acting chops as well. I'm glad to see him get more to do because he's done so much with a minor character.

Adama is finally getting a clue about Tigh. There were a few pretty loaded looks in his direction.

Why is Anders still running around free? At least 15 people saw him shoot a superior officer.

What were all those marines doing around Natalie if they were just gonna stand around with their hands up their butts while Athena shot her? No one even tried to get behind her or talk her down. Hell, Tyrol could have disarmed her easily. That made no sense at all.

Why did Roslin only take Baltar to the base star? Hera and CapSix and Athena are in the dream, too.

I did love the jump at the end. Great cliffhanger.

That "bye-bye" was so creepy.

I found Natalie's "death is good" speech to be totally unconvincing. No one in that room had a question or a doubt? Please.

The resurrection hub is completely unguarded? And their whole resurrection technology is so very, very vulnerable? No redundancy? Pshaw.

>1 littlegeek:, I don't mind at all - I'm trying not to read what ya'll wrote, as I was out of town for work and came home to find that my Tivo has broken. So I still haven't seen the episode.

In the previews for next episode was that a glimpse of Lampkin? He would still make a great final fifth. And perhaps Natalie doesn't die? Maybe they can make a jump in time to the resurrection ship.

Again, I find myself REALLY frakking annoyed with Sharon. If she doesn't like something, she stomps her foot, throws a tantrum and does whatever it takes to get her way. Funny how she can disobey the order to stand down and Tigh says nothing. What is interesting about that situation is that Tigh gave another cylon the opportunity to shoot a cylon while Sharon just delivered her daughter directly into the hands of....yet another cylon. I'm pretty certain Tyrol won't do anything crazy, but it's still interesting. At least, to me it is.

....What? Quit looking at me like that.

Bye-bye. Creepy, indeed.

And I totally agree about Anders being allowed to walk around, seemingly without any retribution or at least being put in the brig until things get sorted out and a military court tries him. That could have led to an interesting conversation with Six, but oh well.

I also said the same thing about the people going to the basestar. If Baltar is in the vision, why aren't Hera and Athena being brought along, as well? It's obviously Athena in the dream, as she's wearing her pilot's rig.

I also thought Hera might actually run into the sick bay for some reason since Gaeta started singing. I was all, "Oh, he's turned it into the opera house." I knew Hera would run into Six at some point, 'cause that was in the previews from last week, though.

But yeah...I'm pretty sick of Sharon at this point. I wonder if there will be any consequences for her murder and what the repercussions will be once the centurions learn Six was gunned down like that.

I've seen a lot of negativity about Sharon on the interwebs and frankly, I don't get it. She was a mother in fear for her child. People often behave irrationally at such times.

But then again, I've never had much interest in the character, so whatever. I'm much more concerned by how they've ruined Baltar. I want my slimeball back.

Let's see...

She cheated on Tyrol.
She's a cylon.
She deceived Helo and manipulated him into falling in love with her.
She shot Bill Adama.
She became a turncoat to the cylons and then cried about the injustice of it all when she wasn't fully accepted right off the bat.
She again manipulates Helo into staging a mutiny.
Her fellow model also betrays the rebels, thereby causing the cylon civil war.
She's allowed to walk around the Galactica unfettered while Starbuck gets to deal with accusations of being a cylon collaborator, if not a cylon outright.
She makes a sanctimonious speech about loyalty and picking a side, then sticking with it just after inciting aforementioned mutiny...by manipulating Helo.
She freaks out because of a dream and is allowed to keep her gun raised...why?
She shoots Six in cold blood which is more than likely going to cause more deaths. Keep in mind that this particular Six killed her sister in order to avoid the exact same situation that is now happening on Galactica.

Not a whole lot there to like.

She cheated on Tyrol.
She did? When?

Sharon and Boomer are two different characters - and Boomer, I think, is intensely sympathetic. All she ever wanted, all she ever knew, was that she was human, that she was a part of a family, and then, because of something she had no control over, her family turned on her, shunned her, and killed her, and when she woke up, she didn't belong back with the Cylons, either... they'd made her for a very specific purpose, and nuts to her if she got her heart broken in the process. All she wants is to be loved, to have her family back, and all she gets is rejection, even while they're accepting Sharon into their midst. I can't blame her for switching sides, trying to shut down the human side of her and become all machine, even if it did instigate a civil war.

I don't draw that big a distinction between Sharon and Boomer because they're the same model and, therefore, have the same basic infrastructure built in. Perhaps Sharon didn't know about Boomer's relationship with Tyrol, but she still manipulated Helo and still does when it suits her needs. I really don't see that big of a difference.

And I really don't buy that it's ok to start a war because one person is distraught.

And who is rejecting Sharon? Maybe I'm not fully understanding what you're saying here, but it seems to me that just about everybody aboard the Galactica has accepted her at this point. Besides which, this still doesn't change the fact that if Sharon doesn't like something, she whines, wheedles, and manipulates until she gets what she wants and is a hypocrite.

I don't draw that big a distinction between Sharon and Boomer because they're the same model and, therefore, have the same basic infrastructure built in.

That's kind of like saying identical twins are the same person because they've got the same genetic infrastructure. Do you consider Caprica Six, Gina, and Natalie all as the same character? It's interesting that the models that we get different versions of are all on the side of the "robots are people too", while the others are all on the "we need to be the best machines we can be".

And who is rejecting Sharon?
Nobody's rejecting Sharon. People are rejecting Boomer - particularly Callie's "I wish I had a gun" on New Caprica, and the fact that Hera recognized her mother but not Boomer when she was sick... both of those broke my heart a little, because Boomer loved, and still loves, her Galactica crewmates, and they all hate and fear her while accepting Sharon with no problem.

That's why I think, now that Callie's gone, Tyrol's going to have to be the one to bring Boomer back around from the Cavil/Doral/Simon faction.

Dude, she only shot Six. If you don't think there's any difference between copies of the same model, why are you so mad that she shot the model that planted all the nukes and seduced Baltar, among other things? For all we know, she may have done the colonials a big favour. I wouldn't trust Natalie as far as I could throw her.

She's done more than "only {shooting} Six," which I've said more than once. And as far as Caprica goes, Six was doing what Six does. Sharon has professed to have really changed, but she really hasn't. She's changed colors to colonial, but her methods of manipulation and childish behavior and overreaction haven't in the least. Also, Sharon has done all this underhanded stuff and hasn't been called to task for it once that I can recall. So, no, she hasn't just shot Six.

There are times when the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the individual. As far as I can recall, when it has come down to the most important situations, Sharon has only ever acted in her own self-interest. This can probably be considered as a commentary on humans, but that still doesn't make it any less true or ignoble.

Flip flopping IS what Sharon does best!

What ever happened to the cylons being machines whose behaviour is programmed? Perhaps, only perhaps, the FF are "fundamentally different" as RDM says, but we have nothing to indicate that is the case with the Seven. As far as we know, this is all part of the plan and Sharon has no real volition at all.

Just call me Cavil, I guess.

btw, Kaw, I'm sorry "only shot Six" was ambigious. I meant "only" to modify "Six" as in "she only shot another freaking toaster, who cares?" not as in "the only thing she ever did was shoot six."

Does that clarify it?

But shooting this particular toaster in this particular manner has much more potential impact than just about any other time is my point. Whether it was emotionally driven or not won't matter to the other cylons, as when Six murdered a colonial, she was killed immediately. We have yet to see what the consequences will be for Sharon, but she's gotten away with an awful lot so far, as well. This is a major part of the reason why I dislike her, which was the original point.

Kaw, Sharon is not a character I've ever found particularly compelling so that's probably why I'm just shrugging over her behaviour. She couldn't get away with more than say, Helo has. Or Lee. these guys do whatever they feel is expedient, under the guise of "honor" or "principles" and Papadama always just looks the other way or makes excuses.

Have you seen the preview up on hulu? It might make you feel better.

Nope. I tend to not check out previews and such, because I don't like the chance of seeing spoilers...as titillating as they can be. I can definitely wait until the show airs. Though now I'm tempted :P

Oh, man. I'm excited I found this group. :)

I read somewhere (here? SciFi forums?) that the 8's (Boomer/Athena/Etc.) models have a small talent for betrayal. They tend to betray whoever they can for their own aims. I think Kawika's list above details many of the model's betrayals quite well.

As for Anders not being in the brig/on trial/etc., and I haven't seen Sine Qua Non yet (it's aired in the UK, so I stay off the SF Forum boards from Wed to Fridays so I won't be spoiled), Anders did shoot a superior officer who was committing the crime of mutiny. Starbuck was the legal captain of the ship. Gaeta, Helo, et al, were mutinying. Anders was in his legal right (and probably had a legal imperative) to defend against the mutiny.

Now, why the mutineers were walking around and Galactica, that's another question. Really, I can chalk up a lot of discipline lapses like this to the fact that the ragtag fleet is on the run for their lives and don't have the luxury of maintaining book discipline. Athena is a pilot, and she shoots Cylon raiders. Cylon raiders may appear at any time. You need your pilots where they can get to their vipers, not locked in the brig, because every pilot counts in this case. One less pilot may mean that a kamakazi Raider takes out the Galatica's FTL drive, and then the base stars jump in and finish it off.

When your priority is staying alive, you pick your disciplinary fights. JMHO.

Can hardly wait for Sine Qua Non tomorrow!

Edit: And yes, Romo Lampkin is definitely in the promo. Watched it in slo-mo on scifi.com .

TK Kenyon

Hey, TK, I've seen you on livejournal's BSG blog, haven't I?

I am totally behind. I just now watched this episode. Much better but a lot of weird loose ends & inconsistencies.