The Booker

Soon the Booker Prize longlist for 2006 will be announced (August 14). Discuss here!

Can't wait to see who makes the long list. I would be surprised if Sarah Waters' The Night Watch doesn't make it.

I too love Sarah Waters, although I have only read Fingersmith thus far.

Has anyone read The Sea by John Banville, last year's winner? (It will only come up as a Touchstone for The Old Man and the Sea, oddly.) What did you think? My impression is that many fewer people read it than most of the other short list books (Never Let me Go or On Beauty, for instance), so I am curious about it.

I'm not the biggest Banville fan in the world, but I've read three or four of his novels, including The Sea, which I wound up enjoying very much. He's really a world-class stylist I think, even though his plotting can leave a bit to be desired now and then, but his gorgeous prose and his use of the language are really the main aspects of his work that I find the most attractive. I thought Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go was by far the best book of last year's final Booker bunch, a novel that will be read by a great many people for a long, long time to come.

The Booker long list has just been announced, following an unusually long deliberation by the judges. Here it is:

Peter Carey's Theft: A Love Story
Kiran Desai's The Inheritance of Loss
Robert Edric's Gathering the Water
Nadine Gordimer's Get a Life
Kate Grenville's The Secret River
M.J. Hyland's Carry Me Down
Howard Jacobson's Kalooki Nights
James Lasdun's Seven Lies
Mary Lawson's The Other Side of the Bridge
Jon McGregor's So many ways to Begin
Hisham Matar's In the country of men
Claire Messud's The Emperor's Children
David Mitchell's Black Swan Green
Naeem Murr's The Perfect Man
Andrew O'Hagan's Be Near Me
James Robertson's The Testament of Gideon Mack
Edward St Aubyn's Mother's Milk
Barry Unsworth's The Ruby in her Navel
Sarah Waters's The Night Watch

Have you read any of these books? What are your thoughts on them? What are your thoughts on their chances with the Booker Prize, or what their inclusion means for the Booker Prize itself?

How much does inclusion on a long or short list for a prize like this change the way a book is received? How much does the inclusion of specific books (by new authors, unknown authors, old standbys, previous winners, etc.; or books that adhere to established rules of form and content vs. those that challenge them) change the way we perceive the prize?

P.S. Right you were about Night Watch, Ex_Libris!

Of the longlist the only two I have read are Theft: a love story by Peter Carey, and Black Swan Green by David Mitchell. I thought both were fantastic books and would be happy to see either win. As an Australian I would obviously like Carey, or Kate Grenville to win. But Carey already has two, and I though David Mitchell was unlucky to miss out with Cloud Atlas. I can't comment first hand on Kate Grenville, but I've heard nothing but praise for The Secret River.

book boy

I picked up Night Watch the other day and am really looking forward to reading The Inheritance of Loss. The problem with keeping up with the prizes is that you have to buy the books when the expense is at its' peak. And as much as I love reading them... my bank account most often forces me to wait till they've gone to paperback or used books before I can read a large number of them. Libraries around here are so behind the eight-ball when it comes to keeping up with new literature. I'll be lucky if I manage to read half the short list before the winner is announced.

So, the shortlist has been announced:

Kiran Desai's The Inheritance of Loss
Kate Grenville's The Secret River
M.J. Hyland's Carry Me Down
Hisham Matar's In the country of men
Edward St Aubyn's Mother's Milk
Sarah Waters's The Night Watch

Most of the favourites didn't make the list, and I have only read the Night Watch. Any recommendations as to which to try next?

If you want something ascerbic and a little surreal, try "Mother's Milk". Full of laugh-out loud one-liners. Very entertaining.

I find it intriguing and slightly delightful that Sarah Waters is the only short-listed author (this year) I have even read before. Too often the Booker short list is filled with the usual suspects.

Does anyone have experience with these authors' other works?

Not really. I do think it's exciting that the authors are not as well known (at least to me) as in the past. The only one other than Sarah Waters I know anything about is Kiran Desai, and only because she is the daughter of Anita Desai, whose fiction I have enjoyed. I have Kiran Desai's first novel, Hullabaloo in the Guava Orchard, which is supposed to be good, but I haven't read it yet.

I'm Australian and very proud to have Kate Grenville and M.J. Hyland on the shortlist. Of the nominees I have read The Night Watch, The Secret River and Carry Me Down. I prefer the Grenville book out of these, so I'm tipping her. Who knows though - the Booker can be like the lottery sometimes.

The Secret River by Kate Grenville is excellent. Her characters are wonderfully three-dimensional, her sense of place is phenomenally visual and her treatment of what has been called "national guilt" is very powerful. When I finished the book, I closed the book and just sat there for who knows how long. I was profoundly moved. It is my personal book-of-the-year (and I'm NOT Australian). I also enjoyed The Night Watch and The Desai novel is near the top of my pile!

Announced today (from the Man Booker Prize website) "Kiran Desai was named the winner of the £50,000 Man Booker Prize for Fiction with The Inheritance of Loss..."

It's in my bedside pile, anyone read it yet?

It's not available in Australia yet. Did you know that Kiran Desai's mother, Anita Desai, has been shortlisted three times for the Booker?

I didn't but it explains my confusion with the names...

I am reading The Inheritance of Loss at this minute. I guessed the winner by lurking on the Booker Blog. So far, its fine. Reminds me of V.S. Naipal. I actually started Night Watch and sent in back to the library. I LOVED Fingersmith, but couldn't concentrate at this time on the characters in this new one. I try to read more on the short list but missed the window this year. There's always next year.

Quite agree about Night Watch. Couldn't get into it at all. Far inferior to her earlier novels, especially Fingersmith.

I rarely read a book in the year in which it is written. I'm never up on the long or short lists and I feel a little left out! That said, I like to keep up on the past lists for suggestions.

Well, that certainly introduces another question:
What are your favorite Booker winners (or short listed books) from years past?

I think The Blind Assassin by Atwood was one of the best books I've ever read. I started reading Possession a few years ago, but lost interest with it. I may have just been at a restless point in my life. I do, however, plan on attacking it again.

Of the Booker Prize winners and finalists I have read, I think my favorite was Life of Pi, but like others, I really liked Fingersmith. I started Inheritance of Loss (also lurking on Booker blog and guessing correctly) but I let it go because it was not grabbing me, even halfway thought. Liked Amsterdam and Disgrace, but not Blind Assassin (have read all of Atwood). HATED the Famished Road, have not read God of Small Things. Saw the movie the Engish patient. Got to go to work now.

I'm unfamiliar with most of the books, but I read and loved Black Swan Green. I am planning to read The Emperor's Children.

Best Booker winner I've ever read was "Sacred Hunger" by Barry Unsworth. It's up there in my top 5 of all time.

I second Sacred Hunger - I'm reading it now and absolutely loving it.

I experienced Black swan green on audio and really enjoyed it. The reader/performer makes a huge difference. Speaking of Australia, Dirt Music was a finalist one year and I quite liked it.

Have placed a hold on Sacred Hunger and will let all know.

I did finally finish The Inheritance of Loss and liked it very much. Parts of it reminded me of Harbor by Lorraine Adams and Brick Lane by Monica Ali. I thought I was probably missing a little history of the region, but still, it was a moving story of very human beings, nearly all of them immigrants of one kind or another.

best booker winners i've read so far are the god of small things, moon tiger (for some reason not that many copies on LT...) and oscar and lucinda... right now i'm reading midnight's children, am halfway through, and it probably is the best read i ever had...

Just a bit from a delightful piece by Angela Carter in Shaking a Leg, originally published in TimeOut in 1984:

"There remains the problem of what the Booker McConnell prize is actually given for. Is it for the Book of the Year, plus a handful of highly commendeds, like an Oscar? Or ought it to be the reward for a lifetime's contribution to culture--in which case, what then is the status of the shortlistees, poor things. If the judges increasingly opt for the former, they could easily oscillate to the latter view this year, next year...Iris Murdoch presumably won it for a body of work, since it can't have been for The Sea, The Sea; Doris Lessing ought to. So should Anthony Burgess. (No surprises? No surprises. But that isn't the point of this sort of surprise!)"

Comments?

I think it has worked both ways, depending upon the jury. Authors like McEwan, Atwood, and Banville probably owe their victories to constantly being nominated (or unfairly omitted) beforehand. At the same time there have been winners like Rushdie, Hulme, and Martel who came from nowhere to win.

Of course, now they shouldn't feel the need to award the prize for a body of work because that's what the International Prize does. On the other hand, not unlike the Oscars, do you really want to be remembered for getting it so wrong that you forgot to award the prize to a leading writer. (Unless you are Martin Amis and then you seem doomed). Look at Scorese this year, did he really deserve to win the Oscar - probably not, but the academy didn't want that piece of trivia hanging round, it's bad enough having to failed to give it to Hitchcock. Hence you get major writers winning with lesser works. Then the jury just make mistakes, Hotel du Lac instead of Empire of the Sun?

The question about the MB prize is really - is it there to reward merit or is it to boost book sales? I would expect that most publishers (and authors?) see it as a way to boost sales, profile.
Here's another (utilitarian) question - if the choice is between a new author and an established author doesn't it make rational sense to award it to the new author as it would make more difference to him/her?

ps...Beryl Bainbridge may be a good bet for this year - she has been nominated 5 times but never won, and she claims her next novel will be her last novel.

>32 Jargoneer: Your last comment is intriguing and sounds just like Oscar-type buzz:-)

I found this comment in the same article rather interesting: "Further, the French, or at least Parisians are, as is well known, a booksy lot, The British, not." Of course, it's hard to tell sometimes whether she is joking or not...but she continues with: "Or---are the British turning into a booksy lot, under the influence of a literary prize promoted as if it were a sporting event?"

"It is only since 1980, when William Golding won it, that the prize began to acquire a general audience and the Booker shortlist of five or six novels started to turn into an annual checklist for busy people of what is going on in the world o' books." (she is writing this in 1984 remember).

The 2007 longlist won't be announced for another two months (and will be considerably shorter than in previous years, apparently - 12?). But: does anyone already have any tips, ideas or wild predictions of books that might make it onto to the list?

As far as "the best book not to have won" is concerned, I would like to mention both The Master by Colm Tóibín and Havoc in its Third Year by Ronan Bennett. Purely a coincidence that they're both Irish :-)

Here's a wild prediction - Engleby by Sebastian Faulks. Terrific book.

Some other contenders might be:
(Note, this is NOT the longlist, just books that would theoretically qualify!)

The Pregnant Widow by Martin Amis
The Steep Approach to Garbadale by Iain Banks
Darkmans by Nicola Barker
Life Class by Pat Barker
The Song Before It Is Sung by Justin Cartwright
The Welsh Girl by Peter Ho Davies
The Gathering by Anne Enright
According to Ruth by Jane Feaver
The Unknown Terrorist by Richard Flanagan
Measuring Time by Helon Habila
The Raw Shark Texts by Steven Hall
The Reluctant Fundamentalist by Mohsin Hamid
The Widow and Her Hero by Thomas Keneally
Day by A.L. Kennedy
My Revolutions by Hari Kunzru
The Cleft by Doris Lessing
Two Caravans by Marina Lewycka
On Chesil Beach by Ian McEwan
Redemption Falls by Joseph O'Connor
Divisadero by Michael Ondaatje
The Tenderness of Wolves by Stef Penney
Gods Behaving Badly by Marie Phillips
The Peacock Throne by Sujit Saraf
Afterwards by Rachel Seiffert
Resistance by Owen Sheers
Tomorrow by Graham Swift
A Curious Earth by Gerard Woodward

and perhaps even these two, if they ever get published...
Sure and Steadfast by James Kelman
We Are Now Beginning Our Descent by James Meek

From that list, I'll give my possibles:The Raw Shark Texts, Measuring the World (yes, a different one), On Chesil Beach, Divisadero, and Tomorrow.
I'll look for more...

Some more for the longlist

Jim Crace The Pesthouse
Matthew Kneale When We Were Romans
Don DeLillo Falling Man

I wasn't impressed with either On Chesil Beach or Day - so I move to strike both!

Really, Raw Shark Texts as a Booker longlist candidate? Isn't that a thriller, and a bit over marketed one (at least over here)?

Yes, I suppose the usual cast of characters will be represented whether their books are great or not. Afterwards hasn't even come out here in the states yet...this summer sometime...

#37 I'm curious, amandameale - which Measuring the World do you mean?

#38 I can't believe I left Jim Crace off the list, especially since I'm in the middle of reading it RIGHT NOW... most certainly a candidate, in my view. DeLillo is out, though, since he's American. I wasn't overly impressed by Chesil Beach, but then I rarely am by McEwan and he has already won for that pitiably flimsy Amsterdam, so anything's possible...
As for A.L. Kennedy, I have to confess that I think she is the bees knees and am really hoping that I like Day - I'd be really keen to hear why you didn't like it?

#39 I suppose you're right about the Raw Shark Texts - I keep putting off reading it, since I'm also turned off by the hype, so I haven't really the foggiest what it's about!

What do you all think about the proposal to reduce the longlist down to around 12 books this year? (The chairman is an economist, hmm...)
I know it'll certainly be easier on the bank balances of those somewhat sad individuals (like ME) who go out and buy all the those expensive hardbacks as soon as the list is announced. 12 is at least better that the 19-21 of previous years.
However, I'm slightly anxious that I might miss out on some real gems that normally would never come to my attention. Two examples from last year: The Other Side of the Bridge by Mary Lawson and Gathering the Water by Robert Edric....

#41 I'd prefer a longer list - as you say, the winner isn't necessarily fabulous, and sometimes you find a better book amongst the other nominees.
#40 Measuring the World by Daniel Kehlmann

#24 I had the same response to The Inheritance of Loss. I put it down at the midpoint.

Measuring the World is absolutely fabulous but it is a translation from the German and, therefore, not eligible.

Re #38 I can't believe that I never realised that American novelists were vetoed from Booker nominations.

#44 Yes, it somehow tends to skew the concept of "Best English-Language novel of the year" if the Americans aren't included... then again, I suppose the Pulitzer and the National Book Award tend to offer a counterweight.
Besides which, the very idea of a "best book" is problematic, and perhaps a topic for another thread, but I for one am happy to be guided by various long and short lists - it so darn difficult to choose from the mass of publications each year.
I adored Measuring the World and I'm sure even the English translation could wipe the floor with many a Booker contender - amazingly, he didn't even win the German equivalent of the Booker in the year he was nominated! Germans are strange sometimes. (Alright, he's Austrian, but so was the eventual winner!)

#40

I've now posted my review of Day.

I've also read When We Were Romans. Review to follow. In short: very enjoyable but not Booker material either.

RE #4 and 5:

I just finished The Sea and really enjoyed it. He had some great lines that made me chuckle (I will forever now use the expression, "long shrift") and some that were beautiful ("summer light, thick as honey"). The storyline about the wife really tugged at my heartstrings. I think he got the tone exactly right.

Thinking back on it, I am a little disappointed in the ending of the childhood story, but as I read it it seemed to work

It is my first John Banville novel and will add more to my TBR list. Any suggestions?

Well, it's not exactly that Americans are vetoed or excluded, the Booker prize is for the Commonwealth (plus Ireland).

When I saw that this thread was getting activity, I thought the longlist had been posted...I'm anticipating it eagerly. For me, the Booker longlist (and shortlist too) are so much more important than the winner.

nperrin, I totally agree. Often I've enjoyed books that were on the long list or short list much more than the winners. I look forward to adding them to my "must read" list.

#47 I liked The Book of Evidence.

Booker longlist being announced 7th August.

#48 Sorry for jumping in a bit too early, nperrin, I tend to break out into a kind of pre-Booker fever at the beginning of the summer, since I can't wait for the whole thing to start again (sad being that I am...).
And then the long list comes out and I'm usually desperately disappointed - last year I had bet 100 quid on Half of a Yellow Sun winning and then it wasn't even longlisted, pah.

Today's the day, though...

The Man Booker Prize 2007 long list:

Darkmans by Nicola Barker (Fourth Estate)
Self Help by Edward Docx (Picador)
The Gift Of Rain by Tan Twan Eng (Myrmidon)
The Gathering by Anne Enright (Jonathan Cape)
The Reluctant Fundamentalist by Mohsin Hamid (Hamish Hamilton)
The Welsh Girl by Peter Ho Davies (Sceptre)
Mister Pip by Lloyd Jones (John Murray)
Gifted by Nikita Lalwani (Viking)
On Chesil Beach by Ian McEwan (Jonathan Cape)
What Was Lost by Catherine O'Flynn (Tindal Street)
Consolation by Michael Redhill (William Heinemann)
Animal's People by Indra Sinha (Simon & Schuster)
Winnie & Wolf by A.N. Wilson (Hutchinson)

Thank you! I've been waiting for someone to post this.

Me, too. Earlier today I was repeatedly hitting the "refresh" button on the Booker Prize's main website, waiting for the list to be published. And Citizenkelly, you beat them to it: after I read your post I went back to the site and still didn't see the list posted there. I should have known I could rely on fabulous LT members to have the scoop!

I have read On Chesil Beach and Mister Pip. Has anyone read the other ones?

I've only read On Chesil Beach. I was hoping to get Gifted by Nikita Lalwani through Early Reviewers, but no such luck. And I've been waiting for my library to process Mister Pip, and I've been meaning to see if they have The Welsh Girl. So now this will spur me on. Unfortunately it's also given me an interest in reading Winnie and Wolf (among others), which isn't out in the US for a month and a half!

Touchstones are not quite my friend tonight.

I've started keeping a wish list on AmazonUK, since I keep hearing about interesting books that aren't out here yet and don't want to forget about them.

I've also read only On Chesil Beach, although I almost picked up The Welsh Girl a few times. I will probably order it next time I shop online.

It's such an obscure list, I'm delighted that the judges went for so many unknowns. (Just two gripes: no A.L. Kennedy and that flipping Ian McEwan has been longlisted again for a mere trifle...)

I've only read the McEwan and the Hamid, and otherwise I only own The Welsh Girl (will start it today), so that'll be ten new books going into the basket, *sigh*.

>59 citizenkelly: yes, that's the first thing I noticed also. Very refreshing.

I have read On Chesil Beach and just finished The Reluctant Fundamentalist, which is good - thoughtful - but didn't wow me. I've just started "Mr. Pip" which amandameale had recommended previously (touchstone not coming up with appropriate book). I doubt i will have time to explore this list in the coming months (at least as I would like), but that's my contribution thus far.

I've read What Was Lost, and was surprised to see it on the longlist. It's a decent book, but I wouldn't have said it was Booker quality good.

#59 citizenkelly: Go to the naughty corner. Ian McEwan is a favourite of mine.

pout.

I'm with amandameale: didn't expect to love On Chesil Beach but it has really stuck with me.

I think I need to reread Atonement. I generally love McEwan, but I just found the characters in this one extremely irritating.

I just read Gifted (no touchstone, sorry). Hopefully I'll post a review later today. It's basically a study on the life of Indian immigrants in Britain. I loved it because I was able to buy into characters and just kind of hang around and enjoy their world. It something like a mixture between Bee Season and The Namesake, but more compelling (a word I usually try to avoid, but I can't think of a better one).

I'm sorry citizenkelly. You can come out now.

Hey, I was having fun in that corner! Pete Doherty is a hoot…

It seems everyone has an opinion on this Ian McEwan business, mostly along the lines of “Well, I thought this was brilliant, but then he wrote that, which wasn’t half as good but still won a prize and neither of them were as good as that other one, y’know, the wartime one, and then there was that one with the fish soup…”

I’m loath to add my incredibly banal thoughts to the McEwan debate, but I do think that the quality of his writing has deteriorated since Enduring Love (=enduring adoration from unquestioning fans). I actually feel quite sorry for him, since so many people poo-poo his Amsterdam victory, but I think they’re right. Better to have never won the Booker than to have won it for that book. And now the poor chap has to put up with charges that he’d get nominated for a grocery list – but it certainly seems that way!

Although I’m one of the few people on the planet who didn’t like Atonement (very Mills & Boon, imo), I thought Saturday wasn’t half bad, and enjoyed On Chesil Beach quite a lot. But… I don’t think the latter is Booker material at all. It’s the sort of clever vignette that many great writers can (and do) produce with the mere flick of a pen, and is certainly not unworthy, but “best novel of the year”??? I think (hope) not.

Not that I’ve read anything better (from the long list) yet, but it’s early days. The subject matter and actual storyline of The Reluctant Fundamentalist intrigued and impressed me, but I found the narrative concept so contrived and as a result very, very irritating.

I’m halfway through The Welsh Girl, which is very enjoyable, but it isn’t knocking my socks off…

>64 Cariola:, 67 I've almost finished Atonement. Having never read a Mills & Boon I can't comment on how the two styles compare :P I am, however a) annoyed beyond belief with the Briony character (13 year-olds can write plays...?) urrggghh!! and b) I think this book has far too many unecessary expletives. Other than that, a great story and my first by McEwan.

>68 digifish_books: Yes, Briony made me want to strangle her more and more with every page. Seriously, with every page - I just kept hating her more and more right up until the end, where my hatred got quite the culminating how-did-I-not-guess-that ending.

It was the first McEwan I'd read too and I did go back for more. I've read Atonement, Amsterdam, Enduring Love, Saturday, and On Chesil Beach, in that order. Enduring Love was my favorite, with On Chesil Beach and Saturday probably tied for second, but I really did like them all.

My tbr pile is too big...I want to get to some of these other Booker longlisters, because only having read one is a little sad. I'm taking a trip in a week so maybe I'll get one to bring on the plane.

#67, citizenkelly, I am one of the other few people on the planet who didn't like Atonement -- it was my first (and almost only) Ian McEwen read. I was initially enjoying it, but I was SO annoyed by the ending that it colored my whole view of the book. Then I read an excerpt of On Chesil Beach that appeared in The New Yorker, and that did it for me and McEwen.

I've just finished The Welsh Girl and I think it's a fine book - certainly the best of the measly three I've read so far, but that's not saying much, I know...

I'm just wondering if it might be a good idea for us to discuss the long-listed books we've already read in more detail? Then again, I know many will want to hold their fire until the short list is announced (on 6th September), to avoid repeating ourselves with regard to the lucky six.

It just seems a bit of a yawn to write "I liked it better than the other (no.) that I've read..." and so on... But I am a bit of a yawn anyway, so...

What say you all?

Have started Gifted, by the way...

CITIZENKELLY!!! There was I reading your earlier post and thinking, well, fair enough. (But I still love him.) And then you compare Atonement to Mills and Boon. For the sake of #58 digfish could I say that you were exaggerating? Given to hyperbole?

Don't worry everyone, citizenkelly knows that I think she's fabulous. (mostly)

Dearest amandameale, I am always given to hyperbole.

#68 digfish: I apologise. Please don't let me put you off reading Mills & Boon.

I have to admit, I'm curious to see what they do with Atonement on film. The movie of Enduring Love wasn't great (although Daniel Craig was good choice for the lead).

I think McEwan has been getting increasingly introspective as he ages, and it's reflected in his characters, especially in Saturday and On Chesil Beach. Personally, I find that shift a lot more interesting than the quirky, violent, psychological stuff he was doing in The Cement Garden or The Comfort of Strangers.

>75 Cariola: yes, that 'increasingly introspective' thing tends to happen as we age:-) I think this is why I enjoy a nice balance between younger writers and older ones!

I can't say the Booker longlist shapes my reading at all, but I do troll it for an interesting title or two.

I agree...I loved Atonement (Mills and Boon...????can't see that!!) and I am so nervous about seeing the film. I know the book had flaws, but I so enjoyed the suspence, the characters, the ending (why are people angry at the ending...I just don't understand....maybe they also don't like opening Christmas presents either::). Keira Knightley is beautiful but so wooden at times....so we'll see. James McEvoy looks like he's doing to do a cracking job......but I do so hope they don't ruin it!!! I have to think that because Ian McEwan was involved, that it will remain true...

Hi I'm new to this board :).

I went to the Booker website and printed out the long list. From reading this message thread I was particularly interested in The Welsh Girl. I decided to have a look through Borders (in NZ) for the books keen to read a few before the winner is announced. I could only find one: On Chesil Beach. I was wandering through the shelves looking in person and next time I will look in the store database to make sure they don't have them but I was extremely disapointed. I wonder if it's the store or because the books are obscure or maybe they haven't reached NZ yet? I wish I could buy them from Amazon but it's too expensive. The actual price of the books is fine and the intial cost of the shipping but they charge an extra fee per book for shipping which balloons the final bill.

I think I might concentrate on reading past nominee lists and winners :)

#78 I'm in the US, and only a few of the Booker long listed books are available here. The Welsh Girl has been out here for several months; Mister Pip, Consolation, and The Reluctant Fundamentalist are, too. That said, I was in Border's today and couldn't find them, although they are listed online at Amazon and Barnes & Noble. Border's stock hasn't been doing very well lately; maybe they are cutting back . . .

Oh bugger, today's the day of the short list announcement, and I've done abysmally badly this year… I usually just about manage to have read everything by this stage (and all prior lists have been longer fgs!), but this time round I've been too distracted. Plus the fact that this year's long list was full of so many unknowns that I hadn't yet read… I've only managed 6½ *sigh*.

Of those I've read, I wouldn't necessarily award the Booker Prize to any of them, but then I rarely agree with the final decision. Besides which, 6½ books is absolutely no basis upon which to make such a judgement.

My 1 – 6 rankings (so far, and for what it's worth, and in case anyone is the slightest bit interested) are:

1. The Gathering – a dark and (I found) depressing novel, that was compelling and cringe-inducing in equal measure, and above all very well written. Enright has filled this book with a biting, witty, lonesome and clever voice, with no sentimentality and yet a lot of humanity, despite the strong misanthropist undertones. I only wish it doesn't win because, as an Irish person, I'm sick and tired of all these tales of woe: enormous Catholic families, alcoholism, sexual abuse, grief, penis fixations, and so on and on.
2. Gifted – I was very moved by this first novel. It's a relatively simple coming-of-age tale like hundreds of others, but the voice is very strong and sure and full of compassion.
3. Mister Pip – Another marvellous book told from the perspective of a young girl, which would be much higher on my list were it not for the very very poor and superfluous final 40 pages.
4. The Welsh Girl – I can't really remember anything about this book, which I think is a reflection of its mediocrity rather than my failing memory…
5. The Reluctant Fundamentalist – cool, clever, fascinating subject, wonderfully topical… but I just didn’t like it. The narrative trick was way too contrived and disturbed the whole reading experience for me.
6. On Chesil Beach – interesting subject, told with some humour. Also completely insubstantial. Sorry!
7. I'm half-way through What Was Lost, which is looking quite promising and could even make it into my Top 3…

I would be really interested to hear what others might have to say on these, or on the other long list titles.

Hey, hasn't anybody posted the short list yet?
Here we go:
Darkmans by Nicola Barker (Fourth Estate)
The Gathering by Anne Enright (Jonathan Cape)
The Reluctant Fundamentalist by Mohsin Hamid (Hamish Hamilton)
Mister Pip by Lloyd Jones (John Murray)
On Chesil Beach by Ian McEwan (Jonathan Cape)
Animal’s People by Indra Sinha (Simon & Schuster)

edited tochstones

Thanks, rfb!
I'm between meetings :-(
Reaction later!

(McEWAN!!! Gawd...)

Ok well I guess I'll have to read Mister Pip. I avoid New Zealand writers like the plague (forced reading at school of Katherine Mansfield and Janet Frame resulted in strong loathing for NZ fiction writers) but seeing as I can't find the other books and it's made the short list I'll give it a go.

I'm surprised not to see The Welsh Girl on the short list--it has gotten so much hype.

(McEwan--YES!!!)

What's the point of shortlisting McEwan? It is very unlikely that he will win, he already sells well, so why not list a lesser known writer who will benefit from being shortlisted.

Well, that's one way to look at it, I suppose. But unless the rules specify that the award is for a new writer, I don't see why McEwan or any other established writer shouldn't be selected. It's based on the quality of the book, right? not on the author's potential or need for publicity.

citizenkelly: thanks for your thoughts on the novels. I've only read Mister Pip and On Chesil Beach. While I loved the latter for what it was - a novella really - I don't think it's enough to win the prize.

I've read neither Darkmans (800+ pages! Bloody hell...) nor Animal's People, but hopefully one of them will be a stunner...

I'm underwhelmed by the inclusion of On Chesil Beach, Mister Pip, and The Reluctant Fundamentalist and very disappointed by the exclusion of Gifted and What Was Lost. Wouldn't it have been nice to have a first-timer on the short list? Oh well.

I've only read On Chesil Beach, Mister Pip, and The Reluctant Fundamentalist and while they were all very good, I don't see any of them as winners.

oh, me thinks there is much more to literary prizes than picking the 'best' book (as suggested by the Angela Carter excerpt in message...er...#31). While I don't aim to read ALL the Booker nominees, or wager real money on the winner, I do like to mine the lists for interesting books. I'm still waiting for Gifted to come out here in the states... (touchstones not loading)

Seriously, aside from indivudal opinion and prejudice, ARE there any guidelines or criteria for the selection, aside from the author's nationality and the year of publication? Ultimately, it all depends on the judges--whose style or subject matter they like best, who they like personally, to whom they owe a perk, who they feel has been passed by too often, who they think needs the adulation, etc. Judging any novel can't be wholly objective--as we can see by the varied opinions on LT.

My comment above was simply that, on the surface, the winner is SUPPOSED to be the book the judges deem most worthy on its own (I think?). In that light, I don't think an established author should/can be ruled out because of prior awards or popularity, a new writer excluded because his or her book hasn't been a best seller or well received by the 'right' critics, etc.

I very much liked On Chesil Beach, but I admit that it's a slim little thing, possibly moreso in comparison to some of the books on the short list that I haven't read.

May the 'best' book/author win!

>90 Cariola: I agree in principle that the Man Booker Prize (has any change in sponsorship been less successful) is about the book of the year but in truth it's more about promoting serious literature. Being on the list will generate more sales for a lesser known writer but probably not for someone like McEwan. I think the issue this time is that On Chesil Beach probably has no chance of winning so shortlist it - is it because the prize also needs a 'big' author on the list to generate some interest?

There does seem to be a Booker author - Ian McEwan, Julian Barnes, Kuzuo Ishiguro, and a few others seem to be nominated on a semi-annual basis. (I think 50% of McEwan's novels have been nominated, for example). At the same time, other leading authors struggle, or have failed, to get on the list - Angela Carter was never shortlisted, J. G. Ballard and Martin Amis have only one nomination each.

ah, but even 'serious' literature has its crowd-pleasers.

I just checked the wikipedia page on the booker prize and it is reporting that Anne Enright won the 2007 booker prize for her book, The gathering.

She did. Congratulations must go to citizenkelly for calling it back in September.

Well, I'm singing a happy song here, even though I said above that I hoped it wouldn't win... now you'll all find out how weird we Irish really are, ho hum!

I do think it was one of the very best titles on the short list, though (I also liked Darkmans and Animal's People, and in the end I actually thought the latter might get it, to be honest).
But it's a much deserved win! Three cheers for Anne Enright!

Anyone fancy a pint of Guinness? It's on me today...

(Just a reminder: citizenkelly did not win the prize herself, Ann Enright did.)

(Yes, but only citizenkelly is offering a Guinness. Please, send one over here.)

>96 amandameale:

I don't believe anyone said she did. Whoops, must have had a sense of humour failure that day. Sorry folks!

That's just amanda yanking citizenkelly's chain ....

I'm only joking folks.

I know Amanda. Just in case it didn't translate, "yanking someone's chain" is an American expression about having fun at someone else's expense i.e.; joking. In Britain they call it "taking the mickey" or "taking the piss", maybe one of those expressions works better in Oz?

As she well knows, I'd happily have amandameale's babies, if it were only possible... she still teases me mercilessly, though.
(Talk about kicking a girl when she's DRUNK!)

I'm just back from a short trip to Ireland, actually, where Anne Enright has been getting a lot of negative press... I'll have to digest it a bit, but more later. Has anyone else actually read The Gathering? I'd be keen to hear some opinions...

*Holden, my knight in shining armour :-)*

It's not on sale yet over here (Australia).

#102 I just ordered the book from Overstock. It probably won't get here for about 10 days (they are slower--but cheaper--that Amazon or B&N).

still waiting for it here in the US...

It arrived in Australia about a week after the big announcement. My copy bears the words "MAN BOOKER PRIZE WINNER". Food for thought.

Some advance information on the 2008 Booker Prize (they sent me an e-mail about it):

"2008 sees the 40th anniversary of the Booker Prize (now the Man Booker Prize) for Fiction, the most important literary prize in the English speaking world.

The Best of the Booker – 40th Anniversary
As part of the 40th anniversary celebrations, the Man Booker Prize for Fiction announced today that it is asking the public for the first time to help decide on which novel should be awarded the 'Best of the Booker' award.

Man Booker Prize 2008 – Chair's first blog posted
The Man Booker Prize website also has the inaugural blog from this year's Chair of Judges Michael Portillo. If you would like to comment on any of the issues raised in his blog, and are not already registered with Debate, then please register for full access.

Man Booker Prize 2008 – Judges' Blog
The 2008 panel - Alex Clark, Louise Doughty, James Heneage, Hardeep Singh Kohli – and the Man Booker Prize Administrator, Ion Trewin, will also be blogging at www.themanbookerprize.com in a shared blogging space later on in the year. We will alert you when their first blogs are posted.

Key Man Booker Prize 2008 dates
Longlist announcement - 29 July 08
Shortlist announcement - 9 September 08
Winner - 14 October 08 "

I should mention that I was a very active participant in the 2006 blog (mainly slagging off the judges for not even long-listing Half of a Yellow Sun), but last year's (2007) was terribly designed, user-unfriendly and incredibly restricted (probably to hinder people like me, ahem). This year's doesn't look much better, I'm afraid, but I thought I'd pass on the info anyway.

I was just reading the Booker site and now this!
I'm excited about trying to pick what will win Best of Booker.

Yesterday, at Masterchef on BBC2, we got to see where the judges meet to discuss the books (Charles Dickens' house) and what they get to eat and drink. I just hope they do not judge books after dinner, given the amounts of wine that was gorgled down.

Oh, I've been to Dickens House numerous times. Good choice!

http://www.dickensmuseum.com/

>108 amandameale: - I think it will be Midnight's Children: they choose a Best of the Booker for the 30th(?) and it won. It could depend on whether people vote on what they think should win, or what they want to win.
I would have liked an more informal comp as well - what do readers think should have won over the years? It would be simple to do - readers would given a list of 20, the shortlist plus other leading novels published in a certain year and then vote for their favourite.

>107 citizenkelly: - I hope his second blog will explain why a disgraced ex-politician who admits he is not a good reader is chairman of the judges.

>109 Papiervisje: - it's a hard life being a Booker judge: you get over a 100 free books, paid to read them, and then get wined and dined at regular intervals. Why would anyone want to do that?

>111 Jargoneer: I think it will be Midnight's Children

Depending just how much the weight of the public they are asking counts, I'd say it hasn't a hope in hell. No-one I know who's read it has liked it.

I loved Midnight's Children!!!

If Life of Pi wins (as it is apparently tipped to do), I will kill myself.
Or at least feel very grumpy indeed.
Ditto Vernon God Little.

I loved Midnight's Children as well. citizenkelly, you are allowed to feel very grumpy, and even throw things, but please do not kill yourself over Yann Martel.

Thought I would create a separate thread to debate the best Booker winner - it is available here

I have supplied a list of winners so people don't have to go searching elsewhere to jog their memory.

I'm listening but don't have much to contribute at this point:-)

It's nice to know that routing for a literary award and routing for, say, the hometown football team, nationally speaking, is not mutually exclusive:-)

The 2008 longlist was just announced as:

Aravind Adiga - The White Tiger
Gaynor Arnold - Girl in a Blue Dress
Sebastian Barry - The Secret Scripture
John Berger - From A to X
Michelle de Kretser - The Lost Dog
Amitav Ghosh - Sea of Poppies
Linda Grant - The Clothes on Their Backs
Mohammed Hanif - A Case of Exploding Mangoes
Philip Hensher - The Northern Clemency
Joseph O'Neill - Netherland
Salman Rushdie - The Enchantress of Florence
Tom Rob Smith - Child 44
Steve Toltz - A Fraction of the Whole

Edited to give touchstones another chance to work

Thanks for the list. I haven't yet read any of them.

I've read Netherland, and it's one of my favorite books of the year so far. I just bought The White Tiger because it was prominently displayed in one of my favorite book stores. I am embarrassed to say that I not only haven't read any of the others but haven't even heard of many of them.

Same here! I did see mention in The Guardian that the judges have gone for newer / "different" authors this time around.

And apparently mostly men.

The Linda Grant was on the Orange Prize list also. I didn't know Amitav Ghosh had a new one out (I see it's pricey, so I'll wait for the US edition in October). Haven't read any de Kretser since The Hamilton Case.

>yeah, the gender parity stats won't improve with this list.

>123 HoldenCarver:: HoldenCarver, I found the first sentence of your post incredibly offensive. Obviously teelgee and avaland care about this, and so do I. You do not, and that's OK. Everyone is entitled to their own views and it is inappropriate to "flame" them over it.

>123 HoldenCarver: Geez, what did we do to deserve THAT? I was merely making an observation. That sort of reaction leads me to not care a whit about what you give a flying **** about.

An even more interesting question is - what has happened to the African novel?

Happy to be the abuse flagger who put that one over the top.

Charming. Perhaps I should point out, from the guidelines:

"Please do not flag posts as "abuse" simply because you disagree with what is said"

My point, simply, was this. Can we not just talk about the books? All the fluff over gender ratios and women vs. men is just that: fluff.

If there are books, by women, which you think should've made the longlist, by all means, name them! It's a lot more interesting and productive than simply saying that the Booker has a gender bias, as if that's something important to note.

It was more than a disagreement. Your post was verbally abusive.

I saw it as a violation as well. What's not allowed: "Do not make personal attacks." (see here for LT's Terms of Use).

Immediately after two people expressed interest in the fact that there are only three women nominees, you were verbally abusive and made derogatory comments about the type of people would be interested in the gender ratio.

That being said, does anyone have any personal favorites they would like to have seen nominated?

Edited to take out an errant comma

Voltaire must be rolling in his grave right now.

I made an off-the-cuff statement as a prelude to saying what I had to say about the longlist. Was it blunt? Certainly; I call a spade a spade, and would say - and have said - the same thing elsewhere. Blunt is not the same as 'verbal abuse', and it's certainly not the same as a 'personal attack'.

Now, can we get back to talking about the books yet? Which, believe me, was _all I ever wanted in the first place_.

I hear that The Secret Scripture is very good and I will be reading it ASAP. I very much liked Sebastian Barry's previous novel A Long, Long Way.

The gender ratio on the author's list cannot be fluff, since there are as many women as men in this world (roughly). So few women authors on the list may not be simply a matter of Booker bias, but it's certainly a situation worth contemplating.

>131 HoldenCarver: I think we disagree here.

For example:

Person 1: I like vanilla icecream.
Person 2: I think vanilla icecream is good too.
Person 3: I don't give a flying **** about vanilla icecream. The only people who like vanilla icecream are complete idiots or lying psychopaths.

I thought you were trying to get into a discussion about why you were flagged because you obviously disagree with it and don't understand why. If not, then just let it drop.

-----------------------------

I've now ordered The Secret Scripture and The Clothes on Their Backs. Many of them look good.

"Use common sense. Be polite. Think before you post." Also from the LT guidelines.

Good words to post by.

I am happy to report that I am a rabid feminist and hand wringing liberal, and upset because of the shooting at the Unitarian Universalist Church in Tennessee.

I think the tone of the statement in 123 was despicable. There is huge gender bias everywhere you look.

It was mentioned above that the Booker Judges were looking for writers that were new and different. John Berger is not new, but he is certainly different and a wonderful writer. I haven't read the one nominated, however.

Was Days by A. L. Kennedy published in the right time frame to be nominated? or Jumpha Lahiri?

>135 almigwin: I wasn't as impressed with Day as I wanted to be. It was the first I read by Kennedy. Perhaps I need to get used to her voice?

I also think it's interesting that, at the time I posted the list, nobody on LT had catalogued the John Berger book, and Gaynor Arnold wasn't on LT (much less her book!!).

I wouldn't be surprised if the Berger and Arnold hadn't been published yet - they're unavailable at book depository, and I know the rules permit publishers to enter unpublished proofs. Very annoying for those of use who want to read along! Hopefully they'll be out soon - certainly the authors/publishers would want to capitalise on the publicity.

I've read Child 44 and I'll be really surprised if it wins. 75% of it is outstanding but it doesn't quite gel into a satisfying whole. To me, it seems like part of it was written with an eye on or an awareness of the film rights. It would make a helluva movie though.

I recently read Day also and was not that impressed. I had heard mixed reviews, but decided I didn't care. So many reviewers cite the difficulty in following the story (which I also found to be the case), but more than anything, there just wasn't anything to get emotional about. The characters were very removed from their own emotions, very cold, which made it hard for me to care about them. I always have to find someone to care about in a story in order for it to be compelling.

I always love to check out the Booker nominees, though!

I've only read the Michelle de Kretser. It was good but not great. I'll have to have a look at the others.

I've read good reviews of Sea of Poppies and a so-so review of The Clothes on Their Backs.

Geesh, I'm out mowing the back lawn and missing all the excitement:-)

>141 amandameale: yes, that's what I've seen about both of these novels. I'll pick up the Ghosh eventually.

>126 Jargoneer: yes, what did happen to the African novel . . .

I am over half was through A Case of Exploding Mangoes, and really enjoying it. Coincidentally, this is the book that has interrupted my Orange Summer, as I had it on hold from the library.

New and different doesn't exactly describe Rushdie either. I haven't read his stuff yet but if I can ever finish Middlemarch, Midnight's Children might be my first.

I thought I read somewhere that an African Booker award was created. IIRC, a short story won that was written by a South African? I'll have to search around and see what I come up with.

I hope not VisibleGhost, as the Booker will certainly lose prestige if it starts doling out Booker awards for every continent.

Thanks almigwin for your expression of sympathy and outrage over the shooting at the Unitarian Church in Knoxville. I've felt completely devastated since Sunday. A fair number of my friends attend this church. One of my friends was standing right beside one of the women who was shot. It was not pretty, nor were the statements made by the terrorist (an appropriate word I think). Unfortunately, I'm sorry to say these sentiments are quite common around here. I'm tired of being told to get out of the United States. As for gender issues, particularly gender parity being fluff, I'm sorry -- rhetoricians refer to that practice as name-calling. Calling something or someone a bad name (fluff, for example) contains absolutely no evidence and does not constitute a valid argument. Anyone in doubt of that can check any freshman writing handbook he or she chooses. There, that person will find a detailed (and logical) explanation of the problems with this particularly logical fallacy - or should I say logical phallacy since gender parity is the issue here.

#145, I was mistaken. I was misremembering the Caine award as a Booker.

>150 VisibleGhost: I'm glad it turned out not to be; I'm with 145 although from a slightly different viewpoint - why should Africa take on some kind of Booker hand-me-down? Moot point, I suppose.

Yes, lots of prizes are sort of bandied about as the this or that Booker...there are three spinoffs that I know of, the Russian, the Asian and the International. These all share the same sponsor.

I'm hearing good things about sea of poppies too.

Re African novels - the last one to make the shortlist was Achmat Dangor's Bitter Fruit in 2006; amazingly, this is also the only novel by an African writer to make the shortlist this century.

Didn't The Famished Road win some years back?

>154 avaland: Yes--last century. 1991.

Well I for one thought it was wonderful and cheers for Ben Okri

I finished Child 44 last night, and although a really good story and well written, I don't see it as the usual Booker book. Basically it is a thriller about solving a serial killing - yes lots of other stuff goes on as well, but in my experience of previous Booker lists this one is a curious choice. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed reading Child 44 but it just doesn't seem to make the grade!

Oooh, have only just discovered this thread. I abandoned Child 44 300 pages in because I thought it was nigh on awful. The writing was clumsy, and shouldn't have been anywhere near the longlist, IMHO. The author started out as a screenwriter apparently, and I thought that was totally detectable in the novel - I hear Ridley Scott has the film rights too.

As for what I *am* looking forward to, I've heard nice things about The Northern Clemency and my copy should be landing any day!

Just found this. Don't think I'm going to manage much of the longlist now... I started with The Secret Scripture, which I have to say was excellent, and have bought a copy of The Clothes on Their Backs today. But being somewhat strapped for cash made mistake of ordering a couple of others from the library... seems unlikely they will get here before the shortlist announcement.

I'm really looking forward to The Northern Clemency and hoping that it comes in from the library before Thursday, when I'm off on holiday.

A few people from work started a Booker Longlist reading group, the idea being that each person would only have to buy 2 or 3 of the longlist titles and then swap them around. Definitely on the lookout for one of those next year.

#158 - I *completely* agree with you about Child 44. I lost interest about 320 pages in, and flipped through the rest of the book in about 5 minutes. Of the six 2008 longlisted books I've read so far, this was by far the least enjoyable one.

So far I've also finished The Enchantress of Florence, my favorite so far, A Case of Exploding Mangoes, The Lost Dog, The White Tiger, and Netherland. I'll start A Fraction of the Whole tonight.

I finished reading The White Tiger and will soon start on The Clothes on their Backs. Again, I have to say that The White Tiger was good but not great.

I'm about to start The White Tiger, and The Northern Clemency has FINALLY come into the library (although I can't pick it up until Friday...). So looks like I will possibly manage 6 before the shortlist announcement. Unless I don't sleep at all at the weekend of course.

Likely to remain unread: The Enchantress of Florence, The Lost Dog, Sea of Poppies, Netherland, A Fraction of the Whole, Girl in a Blue Dress, Child 44. But next year I'll be better prepared!!

The shortlist for the 2008 Booker Prize will be announced on Tuesday, when the judging panel will select six books from the 13 that were selected for the longlist on July 29. I've spent the past 1-1/2 months reading as many of the longlisted books as I could, and so far I've finished 10 of them. Here is how I would rank them:

1. Sea of Poppies
2. The Secret Scripture
3. The Enchantress of Florence
4. Netherland
5. The Lost Dog
6. A Case of Exploding Mangoes
7. The White Tiger
8. From A to X
9. A Fraction of the Whole
10. Child 44

I'll start The Clothes on Their Backs shortly. I'm saving The Northern Clemency for last. I haven't purchased Girl in a Blue Dress yet, but I will buy it if it makes the shortlist.

I was a bit disappointed with The Clothes on their Backs. I wanted it to be really great, but it wasn't. It was enjoyable though. I have both Sea of Poppies and The Secret Scripture on the TBR pile. Hope to get to them soon.

judylou, I was disappointed by The Clothes on their Backs too (and it's annoying that the touchstone doesn't seem to work properly!!). The clothes thing felt too laboured/contrived, like she was hitting you over the head with it.

Interested by your ranking, kidzdoc. I haven't made it through as many as you, but of what I have read, I would say:

1. The Secret Scripture
2. The Lost Dog
3. From A to X
4. The Northern Clemency
5. A Case of Exploding Mangoes
6. The Clothes on Their Backs

... but those are all I managed! Actually I didn't particularly rate either of the last two as anything special, and while I'm enjoying The Northern Clemency, I don't think it's a truly extraordinary, stand-out book, which I did for both of the first two.

I have copies of both The White Tiger and Girl in a Blue Dress but the likelihood of my managing to read them by tomorrow is, ahem, minimal.

For those who might have missed it, there was a fascinating article in last Saturday's Guardian, in which a judge from each of the last 40 years' jury gave some insights into the process.

Looking forward to the short list tonight, although once again, I haven't managed to read all of the longlisted titles beforehand. I used to be able to manage it. Sad, but can't be helped.
Still hoping to see From A to X, Netherland and The Secret Scripture on the list... The Northern Clemency was an entertaining (and fat!) read, very soap-opera, but not really a Booker winner, imo. I shall try to read The Lost Dog this afternoon, I've heard good things about it.

The shortlist is up already - personally very disappointed not to see The Lost Dog on there, I thought it was fantastic.

To reproduce the shortlist here:

Aravind Adiga - The White Tiger
Sebastian Barry - The Secret Scripture
Amitav Ghosh - Sea of Poppies
Linda Grant - The Clothes on Their Backs
Philip Hensher - The Northern Clemency
Steve Toltz - A Fraction of the Whole

No Netherland! That surprises me.

Well, at the moment I'm rooting for Barry, although I can't imagine another Irish writer winning after Banville 2005 and Enright 2007... I still have four to read, though.

This list looks like a reaction to some of the recent winners - especially the Banville and Enright (no offense, citizenk) which didn't go down that well in certain quarters - specifically, with booksellers.

The chairman, well-known political arse, Michael Portillo stated - "We particularly think that this is a great year for readability. These books are great page turners."

He said three or four of the books were very funny, adding: "Book sellers should be pretty pleased with this list."

According to Portillo: "We have brought you fun."

Jesus Christ, the English....*bangs head on table in despair*

No worries, jargoneer - I'm a bit fed up with gloomy Ireland myself.

well-known political arse - I love it!

Technically, isn't Michael Portillo Spanish by birth? ;-)

(sorry, couldn't resist that).

Well, I had only read The Enchantress of Florence and thought it was Rushdie's best work so far. Now I have a whole new list to tackle. I foresee the growth of Mount TBR!

#173
I'm surprised to learn that he can read.

Apologies if my remark was perceived to be a slur - it wasn't intended as such.

Still mourning The Lost Dog. And baffled by the inclusion of The Northern Clemency. Is it possible that there is still some sort of equation that dictates that once a work has passed n pages, it must be deemed to have significant literary merit? I completely agree with citizenkelly's 'soap opera' comment (#166) - it's a good read, but not what I would consider a Grate Wurk.

(Those I know who are reading it in their 'Booker Club' said they found it depressing - but speaking as a northerner-by-birth, I think there may be a soupcon of southern prejudice involved there).

Admittedly I'm only up to page 550. Maybe it redeems itself in the last pages.

digifish -- it was flagged as abusive because it was abusive language directed at the posters.

The Guardian's John Crace has summarised the shortlist. Great reading!

So who do you reckon he thinks is going to win, going by that??

I think he was very unfair to the Barry, but then I have probably gone on at length about how I feel about that book already...

To be fair, he's always unfair to everyone.

Flossie, I did feel a bit guilty after posting the link as there is a kind of malicious glee in his writing that might make a reader feel uncertain about their own responses. I've only read Secret Scripture and I still laughed. I think Sea of Poppies might be his cynical choice!

Oh, I giggled too... but it's just I hate to see everything that was good about it left out. I only read The Secret Scripture because it was on the longlist - having read several reviews, I thought it really wasn't my kind of book, way too misery-memoir in subject etc. etc.

When in fact thus far, I'd say it was the most stylistically consistent and well-crafted of the books on the shortlist that I've read (I haven't read the Toltz yet, still only part way through Sea of Poppies). And I'd hate anyone to be deterred from reading it on the grounds that it was just a stereotypical Irish melodrama. It's not about being sad, doomed and Irish - it's about the nature of truth and history. so there.

Anyway. I shall try to stop going on about it now!! sorry.

Interesting that he didn't finish off with a single sentence 'Digested Read, Digested' - that I would have liked to see...

I really enjoyed The Lost Dog and A Case of Exploding Mangoes. I found A Fraction of the Whole to be a bit of a slog, I'm just over half way throught it. We sure don't have much time to read them before the winner is announced.
I blogged about the Booker shortlist here if anyone's interested:

http://freshinkbooks.blogspot.com/2008/09/booker-prize-update_10.html

There's an interesting quote about Rushdie's book and a place to read the first chapter there too.

That's a very sturdy defence of The Secret Scripture, FlossieT, and I agree with you completely.

I've now finished Sea of Poppies and wouldn't be terribly upset if it won...

(It's weird, but my dislike of The Northern Clemency seems to be growing, although I know I enjoyed reading it at the time... it's just not worthy, I think).

Linda Grant up next for me - not that I'm looking forward to it much, considering my dislike of When I Lived in Modern Times, but I'll keep an open mind :-)

I'm on my last of the shortlist now - how's everyone else getting on? I have to say, I had a long chat on Wednesday night with a colleague who's been tackling the longlist, and I had to admit that I hadn't thought much of most of the books.

I am still gutted that Michelle de Kretser and (to a lesser extent, though aforementioned colleague would excommunicate me if she heard me saying it) John Berger didn't make the cut.

I really disliked The Northern Clemency, The White Tiger and Sea of Poppies - although all for different reasons, and in the case of at the very least the second of those three titles, not because I'm convinced it's a bad book (I didn't "like" it but it was more to do with its incredibly bleak outlook than from any conviction that it's bad writing).

What does everyone else think?

I think that the Barry book is a worthy winner - but saying this after only reading Barry and Hensher's books. Barry is a wonderful writer and I loved The Secret Scripture - my only reservation being the slightly Hollywood reveal ending (enough said to save spoiling it for others).

I did like the writing of the Hensher book - I think the way he dealt with the 1970s was well done - I just wish his characters had been less flat. I would recommend it as a read, though.

The other one that I am anxious to read is the Toltz book - heard some really good things in reviews.

Methinks John Berger has had his lime-light, winning it for G - I think he should stand aside for someone new (sorry C-Kelly!)

No problem, kiwi darling! I think you're probably right.
I'm half-way through the Toltz, and I'm very impressed, even if the plucky, upbeat, megaironic narrative style isn't totally up my street... I honestly think he could be in with a chance of winning.

Why are most of this year's shortlisted books SO BLOODY LONG??!!

I've just finished the Toltz and really enjoyed it - agree it must be in with a chance. It didn't feel anything like as long as 700+ pages (unlike The Northern Clemency, which despite being technically shorter took me about four times as long to read!!).

It's interesting how vague the selection criteria are - just the "best" novel, which gives the judges a lot of wriggle room. Am I being too much of a dreadful snob to hanker after an award that explicitly recognises real literary merit - in terms of beautiful writing, stylistic merit, outstanding linguistic prowess etc. etc. - rather than just plot?? The Nobel obviously does so for a body of work, but I can't think of any awards that do it for a single book (I'm probably just ignorant though). I like a good plot as well as the next reader, but it's always such a thrill to read something that really does something special with the possibilities of language.

>189 citizenkelly: - See my message #170 - this year's list was deliberately packed with 'good reads' as the last couple have sold disappointingly. ('Good read' for some reason now appears to mean "a big book which the reader can get lost in"). The success of the Booker Prize means that it has become just as important to create bestsellers - the sponsors want it, the booksellers want it, *the authors want it. Everyone is happy.

* that should be prefixed with "some of" but it doesn't read as well like that.

I've read The Secret Scripture and am halfway through Sea of Poppies. Although I enjoyed (am enjoying) both, neither seems to be of the booker-winning type. That is, these novels seem less clever (no disrespect intended) than previous winners. I'm not trying to make an argument against TSS and SOP, these are just my thoughts.

Might the fact that The Gathering won last year count against The Secret Scripture - we can't have too many tales of Irish family misery cluttering things up.... maybe I'm being too cynical.

Hearing all this pre-meditation wranging about the selection process, I am wondering how the judges come up with their longlist.

Do the publishing houses suggest a reading list to the judges or is it totally dependent on the judges to sift through hundreds of reads to decide? If it is just up to four or five people to chose the list before paring, surely that does not seem fair. Publication houses have a vested interest and bias.

I really would be interested to know how the judges get their initial reading lists which they then pare down. There is obviously a bias factor in here - it would be good to know how much.

I read for one prize that publishers can submit works, but the panel can also bring in works for consideration. I imagine it's similar for the Booker.

>194 kiwidoc: kiwi, I've culled this information from the official site. It usually leads to around 100-150 books to be read in any year.

United Kingdom publishers may enter up to two full-length novels, with scheduled publication dates between 1 October of the previous year and 30 September of the current year. In addition, any title by an author who has previously won the Booker or Man Booker Prize and any title by an author who has been shortlisted in the last ten years may be submitted.
Each publisher may also submit, by 31 March of the current year, a list of up to five further titles. These should each be accompanied by a justification for the submission of not more than 250 words. The judges will be required to call in no less than 8 and no more than 12 of these titles.
The judges may also, not later than 30 June, call in any book published between 1 October of the previous year and 30 September of the current year, even if such a book does not appear on publishers' lists referred to above.

I believe that the method you described IS the Booker method. My understanding is that publishers can each submit 2 novels, and any author who has previously won the Booker prize, and any author who was shortlisted within the last 10 years can also be submitted in addition to those 2 nominations. Additionally, the judging panel can call in any other book they feel should be in contention even if it was not nominated by the publisher.

Oops. Cross-posted with citizenkelly there!

Cheese! Long time no see!

Thanks CK and DLC.

So the submissions are therefore primarily publisher/market driven, with the reputation of a prior nomination a real advantage. I suppose if review magazines etc were to be involved it would create more partisan selections.

Reading over 100 books must be difficult in 6 months. I imagine there must be some skipping and skimming involved.

I expect there's an awful lot of "Read the first chapter, if it doesn't grab, junk it and move on" involved. Certainly one could reasonably think that it a book is rubbish after the first, say, 50 pages, the rest will be rubbish too. Indeed, I'd imagine the actual number of books a judge will read in full is closer to 50 than 150.

If that's the methodology, I'm astounded that some of the current shortlist made it. Or maybe it's a variation on 'the one that got away' - you think this is bad, you should have seen the others...

Hardeep Singh Kholi at least has an advantage, in that he can probably justify the reading time twice over for Newsnight Review.

And the Man Booker Prize for 2008 goes to...

Aravind Adiga for The White Tiger

I was looking at a website today, and the bookmakers had The White Tiger as the longshot.

Cool, I've already read it.

Do you think it was a deserving winner?

I'm happy too raidergirl, I read this one as well!

I just purchased it this evening.

I thought it was very clever but so desolate.

Compare it with, for example, Rohinton Mistry's A Fine Balance: another book that looks at the issues to do with the gulf between rich and poor, what life is really like for the poor of India, what the development of a "capitalist" economy is doing to the country etc. etc. Mistry's book is just as depressing in subject matter and story (in many ways more so), but at least he allows his characters some shreds of dignity and integrity. It is set rather earlier time-wise, though, and doesn't look at the high-tech explosion.

I'm aware I'm skirting around that nasty trap of saying I think a novel is bad because I didn't "like" or "identify with" the characters. It's true I didn't, but I don't think this makes The White Tiger a bad book. As I said earlier on this thread, I don't think it's especially "literary" either. It's practically the only book on the shortlist where there wasn't a single image or phrase that jumped out at me enough to be noted down.

But then the terms of the prize just say the "best novel" - so if this year it's all about plotty page-turners, of course it's deserving. It certainly makes some important political points about the catastrophic effects - particularly on the poor - of importing a Western-style economic outlook and grafting it onto Indian culture.

I forgot that the prize was announced yesterday - there was a time when the BBC used to show the award dinner on a main channel and have a panel discussing the novels, now they can't even be bothered to show it on a digital channel. Just more evidence of the increasing marginalisation of books in our culture.

The announcement itself was live on the News at 10, and Huw Edwards did say afterwards that the rest of the evening was being covered on BBC4 - although I couldn't see it in the schedules when I went to look.

It is a shame that with the plethora of other channels available that there didn't seem to be any decent coverage.

I bought it a few months ago -- now I guess I'll have to move it up in the TBR pile . . .

So FlossieT, are you saying that The White Tiger is really depressing? I read A Fine Balance about four years ago and I still haven't recovered. I don't think I can stand being scarred like that again.