Cataloged vs Catalogued

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Cataloged vs Catalogued

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1crgalvin
May 6, 2009, 2:05am

As a user who is accustomed to British/Australian spelling, it is difficult to look at my profile page and see "...books cataloged" rather than "...books catalogued" I want to edit the spelling!

Perhaps the word cataloged could just be omitted leaving just the number of books a member has in their library.

2rsterling
Edited: May 6, 2009, 2:16am

Actually both "cataloged" and "catalogued" are acceptable in US usage, I think. The spelling without the u - like "cataloging" - bugs me too. The "g" is a hard "g." It needs something before an i or e.

(The profile used to say something else and was recently changed to "books cataloged" in anticipation of Collections.)

3r.orrison
May 6, 2009, 2:43am

Interesting... I'm American, but have lived in England for 13 years, and "catalogued" still looks like it's trying to have some strange vowel sound between the g and the ed. Cat-a-log-you-ed? Cat-a-log-you'd? Cat-a-log-wed? It just doesn't scan right. In an American context, it looks like the sort of affectation an Olde Worlde Shoppe would use.

(IMHO, YMMV, no offense intended, clearly many others' opinions differ, etc.)

4rsterling
May 6, 2009, 2:47am

See, for me, cataloged and cataloging read like catalojed or catalojing.

5r.orrison
Edited: May 6, 2009, 3:01am

Maybe it should have a double g, like in logged and logging? Hmmm... Catalogged. Catalogging. Yeah, that looks fine. What do you think, can we persuade the others?

Edited to add: or at least Tim -- once LibraryThing leads the way the rest of the world will surely follow.

6crgalvin
May 6, 2009, 3:24am

#5 Hmmm,, sees pictures of cats on logs, CATS (Caterpillar brand equipment) moving logs, think the dog lovers would want to get in on the act :)

Books added, Books listed, would be other alternatives to simply having (number) Books

7girlunderglass
May 6, 2009, 5:45am

catalogued > catalogged > cataloged

"cataloged" is the worst, it just doesn't seem right. Just like program looks wrong without the -me at the end. But then this is an American-based site so it makes sense that they would have the American spelling rather than the British one.

8TimSharrock
May 6, 2009, 6:16am

I suppose we could ask for the capabilty to use the "translate" facilities to translate the site into English... (but that would probably split all the common-knowledge into English and American versions, to say nothing about the Australian and other variants :) )

9Thrin
May 6, 2009, 7:24am

#5 and 6.... cattledogged?

10jimroberts
May 6, 2009, 7:39am

"catalogue" is ugly, "program" with extra -me is just silly.

11crgalvin
May 6, 2009, 7:55am

#9 love it! How about
Dogalogue

#8 Let's just have the word omitted wherever possible, there's a whole discussion about translating the Queen's English elswhere :)

12girlunderglass
May 6, 2009, 7:57am

>10 jimroberts: like I said, the majority of people on this site are American so they're likely to agree with you. It's hard to suddenly see something spelled (spelt :P) differently than you're used to - it will inevitably look ugly.To me "catalog" looks so...peasant-y compared to the oh-so-pretty "catalogue".

13girlunderglass
May 6, 2009, 7:59am

but yes (msg 11) the best solution is to just omit the word altogether - and change it into something else like "book listed".

14lquilter
May 6, 2009, 8:13am

... or, how about another interface preference to drive tim et al nuts: in preferences set "Am. Eng" or "Brit Eng".

15MerryMary
May 6, 2009, 8:33am

and Aus Eng, and Can Eng, and Ind Eng, and NZ Eng, and.......

16lilithcat
Edited: May 6, 2009, 8:53am

I'm American and I use "catalogued". I think "cataloged" looks weird. I agree that it looks as though the "g" would be soft.

17MyopicBookworm
May 6, 2009, 9:34am

I was going to say how about "books Library Thinged", but perhaps it should be "Library Thung".

18Nicole_VanK
May 6, 2009, 9:40am

catalodged?

19SylviaC
Edited: May 6, 2009, 9:54am

catalogogued

Make everybody happy.

20paradoxosalpha
May 6, 2009, 10:01am

I don't know that even such catalogoguery can be all things to all catalogogues.

21timspalding
May 6, 2009, 11:09am

It wouldn't actually be that hard to provide a non-US version. Our whole infrastructure is built on a translation system after all--it's how we can provide a Welsh and a Catalan version without breaking a sweat.

If we did a UK version, I would want it to function slightly differently. Here's how:

1. No UK domain. You switch manually, perhaps prompted by geolocation.
2. When signed in as a UK user, you get the agreed-up UK changes, but don't get the full ability to translate and re-translate everything that a Welsh or a French user does. That way lies chaos and, I think, performance issues that don't compensate for spelling complaints.
3. We do make a UK domain that allows users to edit it, but it's not publicly accessible and only a select group of users—the members of a UK translation group?—get to change it.

What do you think?

T

22girlunderglass
May 6, 2009, 11:18am

*happy dance* :D

23vaneska
May 6, 2009, 11:22am

It's a nice idea; it's even nicer that you are considering it; but in the greater scheme of things I don't think it's worth it.

v (English)

24jimroberts
Edited: May 6, 2009, 11:38am

It's not worth taking any trouble to implement it. We all know there are alternative spellings for some words. We understand each other in Talk even when we all use our personal preferences. More significant would be cases where US and UK (and other) inhabitants use quite different words, like nappy/diaper or tap/faucet: are there book-related words like that which the site uses?

ETA These days we buy books internationally. Do the differences between US and UK editions seriously bother us?

25timspalding
May 6, 2009, 11:41am

I wonder if British people feel cozier when they are on sites that feel "British." (Mutatis mutandis, Australians, etc.)

26reading_fox
May 6, 2009, 11:44am

#25. yes.

Slightly, it's not like conflict with other cultures causes me to faint or anything. But there is a difference in feel between a site where most people share your cutural background, and one where they don't.

27SylviaC
Edited: May 6, 2009, 11:46am

In Canada, it seems like American and UK spellings are used fairly equally, but personally, I have a strong preference for UK. However, I figure that I'm using an American-based site, so American spellings will be the norm. Sure, "catalogued" looks better to me, but it doesn't seem like there are enough variable words to make it worth making any changes for. And it certainly doesn't interfere with anyone's understanding of the site.

28staffordcastle
May 6, 2009, 11:48am

So, how many words are we talking about here? Besides catalog/catalogue? Program/programme occurs much less frequently; what are the other conflict spots?

29jimroberts
May 6, 2009, 11:48am

#25: timspalding
In my case, no. Outside LT, I spend time on sites in the USA, Australia and Canada as well as the UK, in fact more US sites, probably mainly because there simply are more. The differences in orthography don't bother me.

30vaneska
May 6, 2009, 11:49am

I think the online world is so dominated by the US that I don't even really notice it and certainly the nationality of a site would never be a factor in whether I felt comfortable there.

Oh, with one exception: dates :P That's the one really really annoying thing - far worse than any spelling or word usage differences. Fortunately I don't input anything in LT that involves dates but my sympathies are always with those who do and complain.

v

31TimSharrock
May 6, 2009, 11:54am

for me, while I might qibble a bit about
Americanizms from time to time, creating a UK translation would not really be worth the trouble, but thanks for considering the possibilities

32TimSharrock
May 6, 2009, 11:58am

>30 vaneska:
yes, avoiding 29-07-2009 date-order is much more important to me than spellings

33rsterling
May 6, 2009, 11:59am

I'm American and, as I mentioned above, "cataloged" also looks weird to me, and seems wrong from a linguistic/pronunciation point of view. I may have been influenced by UK and European usage, though. Both are used in US English,* though cataloged seems to be winning out. "Catalogued" would not be incorrect, but I guess it looks weird to a lot of people. Isn't there just some other words that could be used on the profile?
*Couple of examples, using US spelling of "catalog" but with the "u" in the past or present participle:
http://www.ntis.gov/rss/RSSNTISCategoryList.aspx
http://mvz.berkeley.edu/Tissue_Guidelines_Cataloguing.html

34MarthaJeanne
May 6, 2009, 12:48pm

Catalog(ued) is one of the few cases where neither really looks right to me. Usually I much prefer the British spellings. If there was a UK site I would use it, but don't really care. Except about the dates.

35timspalding
May 6, 2009, 1:39pm

Slightly, it's not like conflict with other cultures causes me to faint or anything. But there is a difference in feel between a site where most people share your cutural background, and one where they don't.

I'd be interested to know how others feel about this. How much of a turn-off is it to be in a majority-American book site?

Obviously I feel that the larger "culture" is a shared one. That is, I share more with a literate and intelligent British book-lover, particularly one who loves the books I love, than I share with a either an American non-reading mouth-breather--or a British yob!

36LolaWalser
May 6, 2009, 1:57pm

How much of a turn-off is it to be in a majority-American book site?

Too bad you can't ask those who were turned off.

37girlunderglass
May 6, 2009, 2:21pm

it's not a turn off per se...but I do wish it was a bit more international. I mean it in the sense that we would all have a lot more to learn from each other. In the talk groups for example (or at least the 75 books challenge I'm part of) I know one person who is Dutch, two Canadians and that's it. All others are either American or British, or ex-pat Americans or British. It would be a lot more interesting if there were people from all over the world.

Also, sometimes for example - it happened just today - people will start talking about American football or about hockey, or other such very American (or very Canadian for hockey) topics. Not that this is annoying - after all I am learning something new. It's just that it constantly reminds you that the majority of people on this site will have a cultural background in common that you don't.

Like I said what bothers me is not the particular nationality - it's more the uniformity (?) in the users' nationality. I am half-Greek, half-Romanian but wouldn't want most of the users to be Greek or Romanian - I would just want them to be from different parts of the world. Something like the Benetton ideal heh :))

38LolaWalser
May 6, 2009, 2:33pm

There are non-Anglo users--a minority naturally, although not that few either--but not all speak or wish to post in English.

39bugaderes39
May 6, 2009, 2:44pm

Well, I'm Catalan and I'm reading you while my football team (oh, yes, an American site, you call it soccer, I think) is playing a very important match for us. Sorry if my English is not quite good. I love that discussion, just for a word. Catalan is spoken by 10 million people but not much international recognizement. We would love have this type of discussion...

40timspalding
May 6, 2009, 2:48pm

Hey, mestressa. You probably saw that I'm giving away free membership to Catalan speakers. I love the idea that LT could become important to Catalan book lovers and, well, we're never going to make any money off you guys, so we'd rather have you be in the party. Let me know if you want some.

T

41girlunderglass
May 6, 2009, 2:49pm

heh I meant American football - not soccer, I love soccer :)
but yeah it's nice to know that there are people from other places than the UK or USA on this site!

42bugaderes39
May 6, 2009, 3:00pm

40> They say Catalan people doesn't like to spend money (who does? ;-)) but I paid for it!!! Thank you very much, Tim!!! By the way, Chelsea scored a goal but as we say in Catalan hope is the last thing to loose. Visca el Barça!!!

43Nicole_VanK
May 6, 2009, 3:12pm

There are tens of thousands of users on the other language sites - and we can't be sure how many users of the .com site may have another language than English as their first language. Not all of them will (or can) participate in these English language discussions.

By the way - I'm Dutch.

44girlunderglass
May 6, 2009, 3:18pm

well, true but if if I used a Greek version (I don't even know if there is one) of LT for example and only participate in discussions in Greek then I'm most likely only going to talk to people from Greece (most likely!) and where's the fun in that?

English is supposed to be much more universal. And I suppose that the fact that you're Dutch and mestressa Catalan proves that it is - but I really haven't seen as many people from places other than UK and US as I would like to on these threads. That's my only "complaint" from LT. Well that, and the fact that Collecions is taking so long. But that's it, I swear! :)

45readafew
May 6, 2009, 3:24pm

44 > I know people from Germany, Sweden, Norway, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Austria, Canada, Mexico, Kuwait and probably several others I don't remember right now.

46girlunderglass
May 6, 2009, 3:28pm

where???? tell them to come over to the 75 book challenge! :)

47thorold
May 6, 2009, 3:30pm

As a speaker of British English who's had time to get used to LT and its quirks, I'd have to say that the use of US spellings doesn't greatly bother me. In any case, even if we could have the UI in British English, most of the people whose posts we read in Talk would still be posting in American English, dates would be back to front, and the timezone would still be set irrevocably to New England. And I'd probably be inclined to stay with the US domain as the one where bugs are likely to get fixed most quickly...

On the other hand, Tim's point in No.21 is important: if LT can do Welsh and Catalan "without breaking into a sweat", it seems a bit discourteous to the potentially much larger communities of English, Scots, Australian, etc. users not to do something accommodate them linguistically. A new user - particularly someone bookish and not that computer-literate - might well feel more at home on a site that spells "catalogue" the way they are accustomed to.

But, if you do it, please make sure that it remains so that the user can see what's going on and easily switch - there's something unpleasantly intrusive about sites that decide which interface language you want to use without consulting you.

48readafew
May 6, 2009, 3:42pm

46 > quite a few are in the Green Dragon or Hogwarts Express.

49klarusu
May 6, 2009, 3:51pm

I'm from the UK and although American spelling conventions do bug me in a wider sense, I don't find it off-putting on LT as the majority of the tabs and links are lexically geo-neutral terms (it was why I was in favour of 'Your Books' rather than 'Your Catalog' for that tag on another thread). I think it's good practice to aim for that wherever your site is based to make it a more internationally welcoming forum. For the most part, I agree with Tim in #35, I find that the larger culture is a shared literary culture and to be fair, Talk seems to be as full of Canadians, Australians, Europeans and other nationalities as Americans so that culture is very evident.

What really, really, really bugs me though is that the majority-American side of LT is reflected to a high degree in Canonical Title (sorry Tim, I have to do it, I have to bring up Harry Potter again!). I can't help it, I like CK, I really like CK and I like filling things in in the same psychotically unbalanced OCD way that I like lining up my books and it does bug me that Canonical Title always reflects the most-recognised-in-the-US forms for works that are popular enough to have a large ownership on LT and people who maintain CK pages from both sides of the pond. I don't think there's a fix for it, because I wouldn't want to see CK separated for UK and US English, that would be like taking a big sledge hammer to crack an itty-bitty nut ... but you did ask ... so this is what keeps me up at night (no, seriously, sometimes I actually go to sleep dwelling on the Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone canonical title ... I really need to submit my thesis and get out a bit more).

50Barry
May 6, 2009, 3:53pm

Agree with all the above, it's nice but not essential, but I'd like to bump the dates thing ie dd/mm/yyyy again. This would be much more useful to me than how you write catalogue

51jjlong
May 6, 2009, 3:59pm

>42 bugaderes39:

I don't watch a lot of soccer, but this is a great game. That was an amazing save by Barcelona's goalie just now.. good luck to your side.

52jimroberts
May 6, 2009, 4:08pm

If LT takes the route (pronounced "root") of separating US and UK English, where does it end? Are we for example also going to have separate variant sites for Austrian, Swiss and BRD German?

53Nicole_VanK
May 6, 2009, 4:13pm

> 44: Had to check but yes, there is a Greek version of LT. And you could just as easily go to your English language groups from there too - no difference.

But I fully agree that one of the fun things about LT is that you can interact with people from all over the world. Love that part of it. Hurray for the "Benetton ideal".

54Barry
May 6, 2009, 4:15pm

Only when we've got all the other real languages first ;-) when do we get Luxembourgish and then at the same time as we split up German we could add some of the regional dialects, so that some of my colleagues from Saarland can join in the fun and finally we could have regional accents too . LT in a thousand different versions....

55Nicole_VanK
May 6, 2009, 4:15pm

> 52: I do know some people would like separate Dutch and Flemish variant sites.

56jimroberts
May 6, 2009, 4:21pm

#54: Barry
Wow, Barry, I was trying to disparage the idea but your extension makes it sound real cool. We could have a txters variant, "UR usng LT 2, LOL!".

57MarthaJeanne
May 6, 2009, 4:22pm

49> I made very sure that my son got a UK copy of the first Harry Potter book. After all 'Philosopher's Stone' means something. Some of his others are US, because my husband was travelling to the US on business at the time (from Switzerland).

58ejj1955
May 6, 2009, 4:23pm

How about books "virtually shelved"?

Kidding, really; I don't care how "catalog/catalogue" is spelled/spelt, but I'm probably a little more comfortable with British English than a lot of Americans.

I sometimes don't realize someone is from elsewhere until a spelling or a cultural reference or some other detail reveals it. This is almost always quite wonderful--from the heat wave in Australia while I was shivering this winter to the food discussions in "what food did you hate growing up?" I appreciate learning more about how others in the world live and I'm grateful so many people whose native language is not English still can and are willing to communicate in it.

*hopping off little soapbox*

59FicusFan
May 6, 2009, 4:51pm


Not fond of words that are spelled with foreign spellings, don't like date in non-US order.

Don't mind it if it is a UK site, or book, but not where it should use the US format.

60TimSharrock
May 6, 2009, 5:38pm

35> How much of a turn-off is it to be in a majority-American book site?

Normally not a problem for me. The one group where it has been is the "open shelves classification", where there has seemed to be an assumption by some that it is intended to US-centric, but when asked about this the question seems to have been ignored not addressed. Elsewhere people seem to enjoy being bowled the occasional cultural googly (or bosanquet if you are on the French site), and treat it as an opportunity for learning. (One of these years I must try to find out how baseball actually works....)

61TimSharrock
May 6, 2009, 5:40pm

59>...not where it should use the US format

presumably on librarything.us ?

62MerryMary
May 6, 2009, 5:45pm

I do not care which spelling is used. There does not have to be unity of favorites/favourites. Sometimes the Brits go all American on us, and sometimes the Americans get a little Brit. I do not care. I do not care.

Seriously, seriously, seriously.

63FicusFan
May 6, 2009, 6:26pm

#61, no .com

64Thrin
May 6, 2009, 6:58pm

#35 How much of a turn-off is it to be in a majority-American book site?

I couldn't care less which variant of English spelling is used. The differences are interesting and if I don't understand a different usage... I ask - and that often gets even more interesting. (I'm Australian.)

65sjmccreary
May 6, 2009, 7:20pm

My 2 cents: I'm American, but "catalog" still looks and feels like a 5th grade spelling error. "Catalogue" is an acceptable spelling here, but is becoming archaic. Isn't this just the latest in the long list of words that now have different UK vs US spellings? We are all literate, and most of us sometimes read works from the "other side". We recognize and comprehend the word with both spellings, so what is the big deal? Change it to "catalogue" if that makes everyone feel better - it is still an acceptable American spelling. But I think changing the date format will really have everyone up in arms. Even though the dd/mm/yyyy configuration is used here (the military and genealogical research come to mind), the general public is pretty set on using mm/dd/yyyy. Unless you give us drop-down menus to select month and date - but I really hate those. I guess I'd side with the argument that said this is an American-based site, so American conventions will be used.

66crgalvin
May 6, 2009, 8:21pm

One of the delights of LT is that a such an interesting discussion can be generated.
#21 Nice idea but you probably don't need to do all that work, I 'd be delighted to see the subtitle changed to Books listed or Books added.
#35 Tim it is not a turn off at all that it is "in a majority-American book site" but I agree with the sentiments expressed in #37 by girlunderglass.
In these days it is interesting to watch both the globalisation/globalization of sites and also the narrowing down of some areas where specific interest groups can dominate.

Inter-net = Inter-nationally available. This is one of the strengths of LT as others have mentioned. The interface and exchange between a wide variety of people from diverse cultures and backgrounds provides for rich reading experiences.
Books listed or Books added, would this cater to all tastes?

#47 good idea adding the word catalogue on your profile

Just for fun: From The Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style

catalog(ue). Though librarians have come to use catalog with regularity, catalogue is still the better form. Cataloging makes about as much sense as plaging. “If the professionals decline to restore the -u- to the inflected forms,” wrote Wilson Follett, “let them simply double the -g-” (MAU).

#49 klarusu "has it in a nutshell" I think it's good practice to aim for... wherever your site is based to make it a more internationally welcoming forum

67Collectorator
May 6, 2009, 10:56pm

This member has been suspended from the site.

68sqdancer
May 6, 2009, 11:13pm

>67 Collectorator:

But it's sooo much simpler! Come over to the dark side. :)

69Collectorator
May 6, 2009, 11:45pm

This member has been suspended from the site.

70bernsad
May 6, 2009, 11:53pm

25.4millimetres..... Not far at all!

71Collectorator
May 6, 2009, 11:57pm

This member has been suspended from the site.

72SylviaC
May 7, 2009, 12:03am

Metres. Now that could be another statistic. How many metres of books do you have? Kilometres?

73timspalding
May 7, 2009, 1:50am

If LT takes the route (pronounced "root") of separating US and UK English, where does it end? Are we for example also going to have separate variant sites for Austrian, Swiss and BRD German?

It's a question of effort and effect. The small differences between US and non-US English are one factor. But, recalling from memory, I think our usage now goes US, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Holland. That is, positions 2-4 are non-US English.

The US/UK is a rare situation, though, because no translation is needed. When we make a new language, it's a giant yellow blob—and some of them stay that way. Only once before have we done something similar, when we split Portuguese up, starting both from where the joint translation had got to. Still, the split made two completely separate and distinct lanuage sites, with every work translateable.

Catalog(ue)

In a US context, catalogue feels fussy. Opinions will differ, but it's clearly on the losing side of the war.

I'm glad nobody's mentioned US punctuation differences. Putting the comma inside quotes, for example, is absolutely required by US style guides, but a lot of Americans feel that nothing should be inside quotes but what was originally inside them. These people are, however, wrong and should go back to Britain for their wrongness.

74MerryMary
May 7, 2009, 1:56am

Can you believe we've spent 74 messages on spelling variations? This is insane. It doesn't matter! Whatever spelling is used, we know what is meant, and we'll get used to it. It doesn't matter.

I'm getting cranky. Need to sleep and uncrank.

75chrine
May 7, 2009, 2:03am

MerryMary, I want some uncrank. The husband would say I desperately need it. *sigh* It has been a particularly cranky week for me.

76justjim
May 7, 2009, 2:04am

Come now unMerryMary, surely you mean Whichever spelling...

//runs like a rabbit//

77MerryMary
May 7, 2009, 2:05am

:-)

See, it's working already!

78felius
May 7, 2009, 2:15am

I'm glad nobody's mentioned US punctuation differences. Putting the comma inside quotes, for example, is absolutely required by US style guides, but a lot of Americans feel that nothing should be inside quotes but what was originally inside them. These people are, however, wrong and should go back to Britain for their wrongness.

What? What?! That's madness. No wonder you have such a crazy indentation style if you can't even close a pair of quotes properly! ;)

79timspalding
Edited: May 7, 2009, 2:21am

>78 felius:

Aren't you in a hospital bed?!!

80felius
May 7, 2009, 2:30am

>79 timspalding:

Yes. Doesn't have to stop me keeping an eye on you all. ;)

81justjim
May 7, 2009, 3:22am

Having the supplementary head removed, felius?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Nothing serious I hope. Get well soon, John.

Jim

For those not in the know, Taswegians are reputed to be the Ozark Hillbillies of Australia.

82felius
May 7, 2009, 3:27am

I'm not a native - you can still see the scars where they grafted mine on.

Nothing serious, I'll be fine. Though I think I'll resist the temptation to google my upcoming medical procedure from my hospital bed next time - inline YouTube results. Ugh.

83justjim
May 7, 2009, 3:32am

Get revenge; post your own video, put off the next poor sucker (er, patient).

84VisibleGhost
May 7, 2009, 3:57am

I just noticed something in reading this thread. People from several different countries posted and used emoticons. They appear to be near universal in use. Do all countries use them in the same way? Does ;) mean the same thing in most languages?

85felius
May 7, 2009, 4:42am

Just aborted a response to 83 which was far, far TMI. Think yourselves lucky.

>84 VisibleGhost: Emoticons as we use them online are more a part of net culture rather than any national culture. I've seen them used in messages in other languages (though I'm monolingual, so I don't see as much of this as I might). I've also seen a different style used by Japanese people and anime fans - Wikipedia has a lot more detail on the differences between western and eastern style emoticons.

ObTopic: I spell it catalogue, and that's how I write it even when writing talk posts or replying to customer email. This isn't because I'm some kind of cultural imperialist, or a slave to the Mother Country - it's just how I spell it :) I think MerryMary said it best. Though I find the whole thing humourous rather than irritating ;)

Also, I think everyone should switch to using YYYYMMDD as their date format, because it sorts numerically.

86reading_fox
May 7, 2009, 4:51am

Depends (; if that is the same as yours.

87bugaderes39
May 7, 2009, 5:47am

It's me, the Catalan. I like to put a nose on it ;-)

By the way, it was an extraordinary match and Barça win at the and. We'll see Manchester United at Rome!!! Everybody here is craze now!!!

Oh, and I'm longing to use Collections. I can't wait any more ;-)

88hailelib
May 7, 2009, 8:39am

I'm a US person who has a slight preference for catalogue and no trouble at all with seeing colour, humour, etc. in my reading. In fact, I don't even notice the different spelling unless someone points it out. (Even words like boot, lorry, chemist, etc. don't bother me - did I read too many British novels in high school?)

89girlunderglass
May 7, 2009, 9:07am

it would be nice if languages on LT would be like on Facebook where you can just change it to any language (from the options) you want at the click of a mouse. I don't know anything about UI and all that stuff but wouldn't that be a lot easier rather than now that you have to go to a different site altogether (e.g. librarything.de) to get a different language? On Facebook I sometimes change the site to random languages for days just for the fun of it. It's easy. Which surely should be the point, no? That would also solve the British English and American English problem - it could just be separate?

It's not just the British English though, I don't mind "catalog" thaaaat much but wouldn't it be nice if we could just have a simple option on our homepage it to change LT to whatever language we wanted anytime?

90countrylife
May 7, 2009, 9:18am

Agree with you, felius (85). I like to use dates that sort numerically. As far as the spelling issues, its a non-issue for me. I'm American, and when I went looking for just such a book site as this, if it had been found to be British, I would expect it to have a British flavor, and wouldn't have been troubled by that at all. As with MOST issues here, I'm good with whatever Tim thinks is best.

91MerryMary
May 7, 2009, 9:57am

I would hate changing everybody to American English. How boring. It's the little differences that everybody uses that are part of their personality, and part of their charm.

I'm with hailelib - British (and Australian, and European) usages are usually perfectly understandable to me - and when they aren't, I ask. Between the Miss Marple books, the Regency Romances, and the James Herriot books I read as a kid, I don't usually have any problems.

92paradoxosalpha
May 7, 2009, 10:46am

Felius and countrylife are both right about using YYYYMMDD for numerical sorting power, but it's also good because it is neutral with respect to which side of the Atlantic it's read on. It's just newfangled to everybody, and sensible to boot.

93MikeBriggs
May 7, 2009, 11:03am

92> Not newfangled to me. I use that dating system all the time at work. The 20090507 system.

94readafew
May 7, 2009, 11:27am

I've been using the the YYYMMDD format to organize all my digital photos for the last 4 years. but I'm a programmer so I've always liked it.

95staffordcastle
May 7, 2009, 12:46pm

I would be just fine with YYYYMMDD.

96AnnaClaire
May 7, 2009, 1:08pm

I've been using the the YYYMMDD format... (#94)

As in, 0090507? :)

97antisyzygy
May 7, 2009, 1:13pm

Another vote for the sensible date formatting - YYYYMMDD

Gif we can hae this wabsteid in Inglis, it wid be a guid wark tae owerset it in the Scots leid forbye.

98kevmalone
May 7, 2009, 1:43pm

YYYYMMDD for everybody?

Way to attract new users guys! Good job there!

99Collectorator
May 7, 2009, 1:53pm

This member has been suspended from the site.

100jimroberts
May 7, 2009, 2:06pm

#97: antisyzygy
How can you be against syzygy? Syzygy is the basis of projective geometry, the best sort of geometry.

101dkhiggin
May 7, 2009, 2:41pm

This message has been deleted by its author.

102readafew
May 7, 2009, 2:43pm

96 > no, I've been using it since before 1000AD 8P~~

103TimSharrock
May 7, 2009, 4:45pm

98>
yes indeed, unless we need to worry about the year 9999 problem....

104staffordcastle
May 7, 2009, 4:49pm

Y10K?

105Larxol
May 7, 2009, 5:28pm

This has gone seriously off-topic. Clearly a rog thread.

106SylviaC
May 7, 2009, 5:49pm

A plag on you all!

107r.orrison
May 7, 2009, 6:13pm

I went for a jogue today, with my dogue, thinking about this thread. After passing a field of hogues, I stopped for a rest, on a logue of course, watching the frogues in a nearby foguey bogue, and pondered all the words I could think of that end with the "ogg" sound, and how many have the -ogue spelling and how many have the -og spelling. And you know what? No matter how much the cogues in my brain turned, I could only think of two that end with -og: analog and catalog. And boy, don't those two look strange! I'm agogue.

I have now changed my position, and am now convinced that we should adopt the British english spelling of the final -ogue for those two remaining words immediately.

(If anyone disagrees, they should be flogued.)

108Collectorator
May 7, 2009, 6:27pm

This member has been suspended from the site.

109ejj1955
Edited: May 7, 2009, 6:54pm

>107 r.orrison:

epilogue?

demagogue?

110crgalvin
Edited: May 8, 2009, 9:00am

>107 r.orrison: :-) Hilari-gogue

dialogue, pedagogue, synagogue, analogue, monologue, horologue, prologue, travelogue, ideologue

Sorry I started this (hee hee, she says) let's just have Books listed instead of Books cataloged

Just noticed This Group was created by TheBlindHog!!

111Barry
May 8, 2009, 4:49am

Also sorry I started the date thing and just wanted to make clear that what I'd like is to have an option. It's normally pretty easy to translate from one to another when you format fields where necessary and it seems to me the best way to keep new users is for them to be able to set things up in a way they feel most familiar/comfortable with.

112GirlFromIpanema
May 8, 2009, 4:52am

#97, looks like a sensible proposition to me :-). Can we have Low German as well, please? We could base it in part on the Scots translation (looks like it is related :-) ).
#100-#110: *lol*!

...and ditto on the date thing. We tripped over this recently at work, because you cannot tell apart US date and rest-of-the-world date unless day > 12. Only when we had dates like 12/14/2008 showing up in reports when it should have been 14/12/2008 / 14 December 2008, we saw someone had goofed in coding. The ISO date was shot down because it is not as convenient for customers as their local date format. So now we have world date (14-12-2008) and US date (12/14/2008), with localisation for "spelling", i.e. 14.12.2008 or 14/12/2008 or 14-12-2008.

Back to editing my catalogue (tehehe).

113Tid
May 8, 2009, 12:13pm

> 25 "I wonder if British people feel cozier when they are on sites that feel "British."

No, but we would feel cosier.

:-)

114timspalding
May 8, 2009, 12:16pm

YYYYMMDD for everybody?

Way to attract new users guys! Good job there!


I completely agree. There's a continuous fight between me and everyone else at LT over this issue. I *hate* doing it that way.

115AnnaClaire
Edited: May 8, 2009, 12:19pm

The alternative is transatlantic edit wars* over whether 12/5/2007 refers to May 12 or December 5. In fact, I would not be surprised to be told that the "correct" forms are 12 May and 5 December (which are indeed correct... in the UK).

*Or comment wars, in some cases.

116Tid
May 8, 2009, 12:28pm

I'm not sure I want to see a US to UK translation. Would i really want to see Ray Stevens' "The Streak" rendered as ...

Good evening, this is the BBC News at 6. Our first report is from Tesco at Godalming where there seems to have been some disturbance. Over to our reporter at the scene.

I have a witness to the event : Pardon me, sir, did you see
what happened?

(Witness):
Yes, I did. I was standing over there by the tomahtoes, and there he comes, running through the pre-packed stir fry salads, through the organic fruit and vegetable section,
wearing no clothes, none at all! So I called over to my wife, "Davinia", I said, "Don't look, Davinia!" But I was too late, she was already on the phone to Trading Standards."


Loses something in translation I feel ...

:-)

117SylviaC
May 8, 2009, 12:35pm

And how would you translate "The Mississippi Squirrel Revival"?

118Tid
May 8, 2009, 12:37pm

> 117. I have NO idea! But it sounds as though it should have a R18 certificate..

119SylviaC
May 8, 2009, 12:39pm

R18 certificate?

120kevmalone
May 8, 2009, 12:41pm

The British Board of Film Classification's R18 certificate was designed to cover consensual adult pornography.

121SylviaC
May 8, 2009, 12:43pm

Ah, yet another example of the great Atlantic Cultural Divide.

122kevmalone
May 8, 2009, 12:45pm

Indeed
and
"The Mississippi Squirrel Revival" would translate as (surprisingly) "The Mississippi Squirrel Revival".
Or did you mean translocate? :)

123SylviaC
May 8, 2009, 1:13pm

Yes, I believe I did.

124kevmalone
May 8, 2009, 1:22pm

Thanks SylviaC, now it's back to Tid in the studio.

Tid?

125Tid
May 8, 2009, 3:03pm

oh! Sorry, I must have doz.. -

"And now, the rest of tonight's news." {squints at autocue} "A ferret in Barnsley is on the run after breaking out of its cage. Its owners say it is dangerous and armed with extremely sharp nippy little teeth and should not be approached. The local police say members of the public should not walk around with raw meat in their pockets, but otherwise there is no need to panic. The Army is on stand-by if the situation escalates..."

126tardis
Edited: May 8, 2009, 5:54pm

I always use YYYYMMDD on everything, even at work, despite the forms my employer produces that ask for MMDDYYYY. I just HATE the ambiguity of not knowing whether I'm dealing with 12 May or 5 December. Also YYYYMMDD sorts better. It just makes more sense.

So anyway, Tim, per message 114, I think you're wrong and everyone else at LT is right on this issue :)

And if you do it that way and that's just the way it is, new users will probably be ok because they won't know it was ever any different. It's only us cranky old timers that will get pissed off (whatever you do is going to piss of some of us, so you may as well not lose sleep over it).

127Tid
May 8, 2009, 6:03pm

I never did understand the American way of making dates MM/DD/YYYY. I can only make sense of something that goes from the smallest unit (DD) up to the largest unit (YYYY). The American method starts in the middle, then goes to the beginning, then the end. Or so it seems to me. But then I'm British - what do I know ?? lol

128kevinashley
May 8, 2009, 6:29pm

I generally don't have a problem with the USAishness of this site, and when I do it isn't usually spellings that cause the problem - or even differing word usages. There again, I like to use program for the things I write on a computer but I expect to get a programme at the theatre or even the theater. I'm also the lucky owner of The British/American Dictionary so can cope with the fact that tabling something at a meeting is pretty much the antonym for what I do when I'm tabling something.

But numeric dates would be galling if I wasn't able to use ISO dates. I use them for everything, but I'm aware that I'm atypical (although it's strangely pleasing to see so much support for them here.)

But in msg 97, antisyzygy isn't being too specific. Are we talking Lalland Scots, Ulster Scots or even Orcadian or Shetlandic? (http://www.uhi.ac.uk/home/about-uhi/mission-statement is enlightening on the subject. But even they only seem to bother for the mission statement.)

Like others, I notice it in talk, but it's easy to just wander off somewhere else if the talk gets too parochial. It is annoying at times in CK. There's one series of books I have where the same title was used for different books in the series in the UK and USA. (Collected short stories of PK Dick, if you're interested.) If the majority title had just floated to the top, I wouldn't have minded, but someone decided to put a canonical title in. It wasn't necessary and of course it can't be undone. But the same might have happened with or without a UK/US split, so it isn't really a language issue.

Anyway, there's more important things to worry about. MerryMary is right about all the variants of English. And she omitted Broken English, which is probably more widely spoken than any of the rest.

Like Barry, I would say Letzeburgish is potentially of more interest. Like the Catalans, they are real enthusiasts for things that recognise their language. But they are a much smaller market.

129ladycassilis
May 8, 2009, 6:38pm

I've always got the logic of the American way - I see it as a literal way of writing down "May the twelfth, nineteen-ninety-five" or similar; which is the way I would actually say a date in conversation.

I still absolutely refuse to use it though! :)

130Tid
May 8, 2009, 6:51pm

But surely, one says "12th of May 1995" as often as "May the 12th 1995", so where is the logic of choosing the least logical of those two options ? LOL

131qebo
May 8, 2009, 8:13pm

127: I'm USAian but I agree, the units should be in size order, one direction or the other. I avoid MMDDYYYY unless explicitly required to use it, append/prepend 20090508 to file names or enter 2009-05-08 for sorting purposes, write 8 May 2009 when dates are requested on forms.

132ejj1955
May 8, 2009, 9:39pm

Well, I see the logic being espoused here, and could get used to any of the date variants being discussed, but would like to point out that when you grow up with a certain system, you just get used to it--you don't question the way your society writes dates when you are a schoolchild, and it's engrained after that. It never struck me as illogical until I encountered another way of doing it.

133ladycassilis
May 8, 2009, 11:04pm

>130 Tid:: Yes... I'd never thought of it like that. Oops. But I suppose "May the 12th" is more economical than "the 12th of May" - at least you save one word!
Getting tenuous now, I know...

134Kira
May 8, 2009, 11:18pm

I'm always glad when filling out forms that my birth day and month are the same number so I don't have to worry about whether the US or Euro standard is being followed here in Canada :)

135jjwilson61
Edited: May 8, 2009, 11:27pm

Who says May the 12th? I've always heard May 12th. The 12th of May sounds archaic to my ears.

136dreamlikecheese
May 9, 2009, 2:40am

I almost always give dates as "the 21st of August" etc etc.

The yyyy/mm/dd format really favours the Japanese users of the site, turning it into a trans-Pacific rather than trans-Atlantic issue if we want to get really fussy.

And while "cataloged" looks right to Americans, the majority of English speakers are not American, and most of the non-Americans use British spelling.

What I'm trying to get at is that there is no solution which will keep everyone happy.

As I'm sure most non-US people will tell you, we're so used to dealing with the US variations now that it's not really a problem (though every time I see "Mom" it brings me up short - never got used to that one). Yes I prefer reading the spellings I'm more familiar with, but I don't expect my minor preferences to be accommodated, particularly by an American site. I'd be pretty annoyed if a .com.au site didn't use local spelling though, but that's a whole other issue.

Also, I could have sworn we used to have "Euro date order" (ddmmyyyy) check box when we entered "date started" and "date read" information. That's disappeared now, which has resulted in a few oddities when I was filling these fields out this week. Are we going to get the check box back? Or have it as a profile default?

137Lman
Edited: May 9, 2009, 3:28am

To me - as an Australian - is not the emphasis on the US spelling, but the fact that cataloged is so front-and-centre on my profile page.
Right. At. The. Top! Every time I go there...

As a person who loves books, and loves words, and loves language - personally seeing this word spelt incorrectly to my mind - and I know it is not to others - does jar every time I see it! The problem being I see it on MY page frequently.

To me, if it is not such a huge amount of work I would love to be able to choose my country's spelling - as in many other sites. Or else change it to a word that is spelt the same for everyone...then I would REALLY feel at home here. It is little things like that, which I have to say honestly, makes this site feel I could belong just a tad more...

edited to fix my spelling - hah!

138timspalding
May 9, 2009, 3:45am

And while "cataloged" looks right to Americans, the majority of English speakers are not American, and most of the non-Americans use British spelling.

I'm the one who proposed a non-US English spelling subsite, but in response to the above:

1. The vast majority of English speakers on this site are Americans
2. The number of countries misleads. The majority of native English speakers are, in fact, Americans—60–80% of the total according to Wikipedia. The second-largest population, Britain, has 1/4 as many. The third largest native English speaking country would be California, if it were independent, followed by Texas, New York, Florida and then Canada.*
3. US speakers only lose out when you add English-as-a-second- or third-language speakers, the bulk of them from India, Nigeria and the Philippines. We don't get many visitors from those countries, in English or our translations into Hindi or Tagalog.

*Canada may be above Florida once first-language-Spanish in Florida is taken into account. I didn't get deep into the math of it.

139timspalding
May 9, 2009, 3:45am

To me, if it is not such a huge amount of work I would love to be able to choose my country's spelling - as in many other sites. Or else change it to a word that is spelt the same for everyone...then I would REALLY feel at home here. It is little things like that, which I have to say honestly, makes this site feel I could belong just a tad more...

Consider yourself nominated for the non-US English site group!

140Lman
May 9, 2009, 3:57am

I don't know why you are getting upset Tim - if, indeed, you are - it comes across to me as that.

I was responding to your question at #35- as honestly (and hopefully as politely) as I could. You, after all asked - and it was never meant as a criticism of US English - just my opinion - and I was answering your post for that reason alone.

I knew this was a US site when I joined - threads like this allow much more expression of opinions that I expected, and there is no right or wrong in this - purely preference.

141timspalding
May 9, 2009, 4:08am

No, seriously. I wasn't joking at all. I want to hear that someone feels that way. It feels right to me that it would make it feel a little more home-y.

142Lman
May 9, 2009, 4:18am

Ahhh - now I understand - and it is very much appreciated. But if it is a HUGE amount of work - as others have mentioned - it is not worth the effort, IMHO.

Not if it takes time from collections (can we have a thread without that word, do you think?!)
:)

143Tid
May 9, 2009, 8:43am

> 135

"Who says May the 12th? I've always heard May 12th. The 12th of May sounds archaic to my ears."

It wouldn't if you lived in Britain, where "12th of May" is as frequent as "May the 12th". Though too often on telly, we now hear our own scriptwriters coming up with things like "May 12" which really grates.

144Bookmarque
May 9, 2009, 8:52am

I have never said The 12th of May.

Don't really care about cataloged v. catalogued (Firefox spots this as an incorrect spelling...how funny), however too many U inclusive words will make this site look clunky and weird to me as an American. If this were a British or Canadian site, it would be ok, but as it's an American site I find it rather galling that others should make a US owner/operator embarrassed about the way we spell and organize things here and demand changes. I also hope that Tim doesn't knuckle under and trade in his American ways for foreign ones. It's one thing to build bridges, but it's another to be apologetic for one's benign culture traits.

145Tid
May 9, 2009, 9:13am

I really don't agree with you Bookmarque. You might call this "an American site" (why? because Tim is American?) but many of us think of it as an "international site" open to all cultures and languages and embracing them all. That's the vision for the future many of us have - a world brought together in harmony via things like LT, a truly boundary-free enterprise. If we have one criticism of some Americans (and why not? close family members do that, hopefully out of love), it is that there is still a sense sometimes of parochialism - though I have to say, here in LT it's much less evident, and so too in Second Life, another "world community".

And maybe I haven't read this thread carefully enough, but I don't remember seeing anyone "demanding changes".

146Bookmarque
May 9, 2009, 9:26am

Yes. The founder and proprietor is American, therefore he will have a tendency to speak and write as one which apparently is ok to denigrate freely.

An "international" or "world" site is not possible. Every culture has it's quirks and trying to iron them all into flatness and sameness is boring. Imposing a European model on others smacks of cyber colonialism to me.

147Tid
May 9, 2009, 9:32am

Don't twist words I never said Bookmarque. I believe I said "international site" "open to all cultures and languages" "embracing them all" - where did I use the words "imposing" or "European model", outside your head, that is?

And where did I say "iron them all into flatness and sameness"? That's right , I didn't.

As for An "international" or "world" site is not possible, then clearly you have never been to Second Life, World of Warcraft, or any place like that.

Please feel free to gripe as much as you like, but don't put words into my mouth.

148Bookmarque
May 9, 2009, 9:33am

And don't put words into mine. Did I even use your name in my posts? give me a break.

149Tid
May 9, 2009, 9:43am

"Did I even use your name in my posts?"

Since you actively replied to my previous message and we are the only two in here, that was my unforgiveable assumption. I apologise if that was wrong.

150vaneska
May 9, 2009, 9:52am

Where does anyone denigrate Tim? I'm curious.

v

151MarthaJeanne
May 9, 2009, 11:56am

The point isn't really US vs UK English. The point is that a word is being used very prominently on the personal profile page that to a significant number of users looks misspelled. Noone wants to impose the British spelling on everyone.The original post suggested leaving the word out. Other wordings that are neutral have also been suggested.

152rsterling
May 9, 2009, 12:23pm

151 Yep.

137. "Or else change it to a word that is spelt the same for everyone."
This seems like the simplest and easiest solution.

153hailelib
May 9, 2009, 12:24pm

154PhaedraB
Edited: May 9, 2009, 12:42pm

151> 137. "Or else change it to a word that is spelt the same for everyone."
This seems like the simplest and easiest solution.


Now if we could just find enough words that are spelled the same.

155ejj1955
May 9, 2009, 1:02pm

I support the use of a term instead of catalog/catalogue that is spelling-neutral, but by the same token, I'd dislike having some magic button that made everything appear in US spelling. I want the international nature of the site to be transparent; I like the different spellings and word choices and such that let me know it is a world community. Non-US spelling in a post or profile page alerts me that this is someone whose cultural perspective is different from mine--and helps me remember to examine my own assumptions.

156gemmation
Edited: May 9, 2009, 1:15pm

A British language version (or a Scots version!) might be fun (but in all honesty, not worth the effort).

However, if you want to make it feel cosier here for us Brits, you simply need to incorporate some material/themes from www.nicecupofteaandasitdown.com.

157ladycassilis
May 9, 2009, 1:20pm

158PhaedraB
May 9, 2009, 1:50pm

What's with all this biscuits and tea stuff? I like mine with sausage gravy.

159Tid
May 9, 2009, 1:55pm

> 155

Yes I like the sound of that. Multi-culturalism :-)

> 156

LMAO

160Mr.Durick
May 9, 2009, 4:34pm

I thought spelt was some kind of fish. I googled it, and it turns out to be wheat.

Robert

161kevmalone
May 9, 2009, 4:38pm

160> Most likely you were thinking of smelt.

162Mr.Durick
May 9, 2009, 4:48pm

Or parr, smolt, or grilse, except I've never heard of grilse I think.

Robert

163Tid
May 9, 2009, 7:11pm

No I've never heard of grilse either. Nor baptak.

164Collectorator
Edited: May 9, 2009, 8:47pm

This member has been suspended from the site.

165vaneska
May 10, 2009, 4:49am

I understand index as something you find inside a book. I think it would confuse.

v

166infiniteletters
May 10, 2009, 12:41pm

Gah. Index? No. :)

167Barry
May 13, 2009, 3:28pm

Maybe we could come up with a new language just for LT? This could solve all the above problems and eventually lead to a new world language which would just spread so much love around that the world would be a wonderful place again. Can anyone else suggest a suitable internet suffix code? In the meantime I suggest hetchoincem instead of catalogue or catalog as the first new word in our LT dictionary.

168Thrin
May 13, 2009, 5:42pm

'hetchoincem' ?????

169MerryMary
May 13, 2009, 5:59pm

What about those of us who prefer "hetzhoincem"?

170Thrin
May 13, 2009, 6:09pm

Whilst I (and others?) await elucidation regarding 'hetchoincem/hetzhoincem' (and, by the way, how is each pronounced?) might I enquire as to the Esperanto word for catalogue/catalog?

171MerryMary
May 13, 2009, 6:13pm

It's pronounced "fred"

172staffordcastle
May 13, 2009, 6:14pm

Oh, sort of like ghoti = fish?

173Tid
May 13, 2009, 6:46pm

> 170

katalogi , apparently

174Thrin
May 13, 2009, 6:59pm

Well, there you are then. katalogi it is. Thanks Tid.

175ForeignCircus
May 14, 2009, 2:41am

I can get behind katalogi; it is better than catalog and I'm American!

176ejj1955
May 14, 2009, 12:07pm

What I really want is time to katalogi my books.

177Suncat
May 14, 2009, 12:15pm

> 176

Is katalogi the proper verbal form? I don't know any Esperanto.

178ejj1955
May 14, 2009, 12:52pm

I have to admit that I don't have the faintest idea.

179thorold
May 14, 2009, 12:54pm

>177 Suncat:
If I remember correctly:

katalogi - infinitive
katalogas - present tense
katalogu - imperative
katalogo - noun

180thorold
May 14, 2009, 12:59pm

...but we started off with "catalog(u)ed" - I think "books catalogued" would be "libroj katalogintaj" (past ppl.)

181Tid
May 14, 2009, 6:13pm

what have I begun !

Kio havi mi komenci !

182FicusFan
May 14, 2009, 6:53pm



You want a Romanian gymnast ?

183bernsad
May 14, 2009, 7:02pm

Don't we all???

184infiniteletters
May 14, 2009, 7:06pm

But what would you do with one, catalog it? ;)

185kevmalone
May 14, 2009, 7:14pm

...eventually.

186bernsad
May 14, 2009, 8:57pm

Can we have a new CK field to enter their scores after each round of the competition?

187crgalvin
May 15, 2009, 6:55am

Books listed! :)

188Tid
May 15, 2009, 7:45am

"komenci" not "Komanec" !

(I refuse to indulge your pervy thoughts lol)

189FicusFan
May 15, 2009, 8:00am


Komanec ? Could also be Comaneci, or Komenich.