True SF Classics

What are the true classics in the field of SF?

Since I think this will likely become a long list thread, let's limit any mentions to ten books, and I think that only books over twenty-five years old should be included, since that seems long enough to see if a book stands up.

Oh, and no nostalgia allowed - please do not include books if you haven't read them since you were a teenager.

EDIT: Can someone edit the title of this thread to "True SF Classics" - it seems that this posted before I had completed the thread.

I thought the thread title t was a clever reference to Tau Zero.

You think too highly of me.

However, I've read Tau Zero, and classic it is not - interesting idea, certainly, but the characters are made of cardboard, and any attempt to try and make them more realistic ends up being forced at best.

I'll take your word for it; I haven't read it.

Going by your criteria, here's a shot:

Dune by Frank Herbert
Ringworld by Larry Niven
Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke
Stranger in a Strange Land or Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein
The Ophiuchi Hotline by John Varley
Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner
Dragon's Egg by Robert L. Forward
Nova by Samuel R. Delany
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin
Galactic Patrol by E. E. "Doc" Smith
Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny

(Carnophile, taking the bait:)

Storm, I enoyed the Ophiuchi Hotline, but...classic?

Heh. That's the first punch thrown :-)

Here we go... :)

If I could include one thing by Varley it would definitely be Steel Beach.

Rendezvous with Rama
Voyage of the Space Beagle
Players of Null-A
come to mind

Trying to keep nostalgia out of it and limited to thoses I have reread in recent years here's my list not in any order (subject to change as I think about it more);

The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Have Space Suit-Will Travel
Robert A. Heinlein
The Illustrated Man by Ray Bradbury
Stand On Zanzibar John Brunner
The Space Merchants by Frederik Pohl and C.M. Kornbluth
Dune by Frank Herbert (only the first one)
City by Clifford D. Simak
Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs
The Ice people by Byrene Barjavel
She by H. Rider Haggard

# 3: rojse "... interesting idea, certainly, but the characters are made of cardboard."

Science fiction characters should be made of cardboard to prevent them from distracting from the ideas.

#7

I thought you might have some fun with this thread, Ian.

6: The volume of bizarre ideas in The Ophiuchi Hotline is tremendous, the brain taped clones, the loss of identity, the completely alien beings, the bodyshaping, and so on. The book influenced so much of the current wave of science fiction in that regard that I think it probably holds a place as a classic.

If you don't like that selection, you could replace it with Neuromancer - that's just barely old enough.

Hotline is way better than the lamentably overrated Neuromancer. Though the latter does have an excellent title.

Since it has been over a day and the title has not changed thanks to the help of the wonderful moderators, how would I go about getting the title of this thread amended?

I've tried threats, bribery, seduction, razzle dazzle, getting Abby drunk, blackmail, temper tantrums, pleading, The Secret, and syncretic prayer. None of those worked, but a polite request to Abby might.

And how would I send a message to my new best friend, Abby?

Not an easy task. I know which books I think should become classics but, sadly, I'm fairly sure they never will be. And many of the sf novels I really admire were published after 1984, so they weren't eligible.

So I picked the following, in order of year of publication:

The War of the Worlds, HG Wells (1898)
The Stars My Destination, Alfred Bester (1956)
The Drowned World, JG Ballard (1962)
Dune, Frank Herbert (1965)
Empire Star, Samuel R Delany (1966)
Ringworld, Larry Niven (1970)
Rendezvous with Rama, Arthur C Clarke (1972)
The Fifth Head of Cerberus, Gene Wolfe (1972)
The Dispossessed, Ursula K Le Guin (1974)
A Scanner Darkly, Philip K Dick (1977)

I think both Rendezvous with Rama and Ringworld are unsatisfactory novels, but both have impressive - and memorable - Big Dumb Objects at centre stage and I think they'll be judged for those and not the prose or story.

The Man in the High Castle may well be a better novel than A Scanner Darkly, but it's been decades since I read it. Still, A Scanner Darkly is bloody good and, unlike most of PKD's novels, doesn't read as though he was making it up as he was going along.

I'd like to have included A Time of Changes, Robert Silverberg (1971), but I need to reread it first. I remember being very impressed by it when I read it back in the 1980s. And I toyed with the idea of including Gordon R Dickson's Dorsai trilogy, because they're one of the more memorable futury histories in the genre - even if the individual novels are unsatisfactory.

And yes - no Heinlein. Or Asimov.

19: A three book overlap. That seems like a fair amount for a thing like this.

I considered including Rendezvous with Rama instead of Childhood's End but decided against it on the basis that its story isn't as good.

I thought about including a completely different alternate list of ten "classics of sf" just to see what that list would look like and The Stars My Destination and The Fifth Head of Cerberus would have been on that list (as would Rendezvous with Rama.

Childhood's End may be a better choice than Rendezvous with Rama but it's been decade or two since I last read it. So I couldn't include it.

I think I cheated a bit with Empire Star. I happen to like it more than Nova or Babel-17 but it doesn't have the profiel they do. I should probably pick another book in its place.

The Ophiuchi Hotline I really like, but I don't think it's true classic sf material. Although it is closer than Steel Beach.

EE Doc Smith... well, he may have been ubiquitous from the 1940s to the 1970s, but he's no longer in print (except by a small press), so it seems history has already judged his works and found them wanting. Having said that, I plan to reread one of the Lensman books this year - probably Second Stage Lensman - so we'll see what I make of it. I did try Smith's Masters of Space a year or two ago... and it was terrible.

Here's what I wrote on my blog about Masters of Space back in Feb 2007:

... last year, nostalgia drove me to re-read EE 'Doc' Smith's Masters of Space. Unusually, I remember exactly when and where I originally purchased and read the book: it was Easter 1978. My father had picked me up from school, and we spent a couple of days in London before flying out to the Middle East. I'm not sure in which book shop I bought Masters of Space - probably Foyles. But I remember the occasion, because it was the first time I saw Star Wars. So. Almost thirty years ago. The book itself was first published in 1961, although in style and content it harkens back to Smith's works of the 1930s. When I read it in 1978, I remember enjoying it. When I read it in 2006... oh dear. I don't know which was worse: the rampant wish-fulfilment, the cheesy 1930s dialogue, the neanderthal sexual stereotypes... Halfway though Masters of Space, the characters are given the opportunity of replacing their bodies with ageless, super-strong android bodies. The women are all for it - because it means their tits will never sag. While spung! may not have actually appeared in the pages of Masters of Space, it was very much there in spirit.

21: I included Galactic Patrol (as representative of the Lensman series) for much the same reason I included The Ophiuchi Hotline - both books seem (to me) to have had widespread influence on later works in the genre. Obviously, they influenced different periods, but it seems to me that one of the indicators that something is a classic is that later authors plumbed the book for things to include in theirs.

>18 rojse:
abby@librarything.com

>21 iansales:
The Ophiuchi Hotline I really like, but I don't think it's true classic sf material. Although it is closer than Steel Beach.

(Ignites lightsaber.)

In no particular order:

Dune - Herbert
Ringworld - Niven
Time Enough for Love - Heinlein
The Stars My Destination (aka Tiger! Tiger!) - Bester
Steel Beach - Varley
1984 - Orwell
To Your Scattered Bodies Go - Farmer
The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy - Adams
Dark is the Sun - Farmer
The Big Time - Leiber

#26

I thought Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has a reputation far beyond it's qualities as a book or a series. It's occasionally funny, yes, but it's quite badly written - numerous coincidences in the book (even without the improbability drive) and he introduces important plot points a chapter before they are needed with the grace and style of a pig - "here's a section about people flying. I've never mentioned this in the last three books I wrote in this series, even as a passing comment. You'll never guess that my main character will suddenly be able to fly in the next chapter."

Perhaps the radio plays are better than the book.

27: Umm, yeah, he did talk about people flying several times in the previous books explaining how you do it (throw yourself at the ground and miss), and Arthur actually does fly some (with humorous results) in Life, the Universe, and Everything. I'm not sure why you think that wasn't brought up until So Long and Thanks for All the Fish.

What I have come up with:

Dune , by Frank Herbert
The Stars My Destination by Alfred Bester
The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin
Star Maker Olaf Stapledon
The Forever War by Joe Haldeman
I am Legend by Richard Matheson

(5) Dune – Herbert (1965)
(3) Ringworld, Larry Niven (1970)
(3) The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin
(3) The Stars My Destination, Alfred Bester (1956)
(2) Rendezvous with Rama, Arthur C Clarke (1972)
(2) Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner (1968)

1984 - Orwell
A Scanner Darkly, Philip K Dick (1977)
Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke
City by Clifford D. Simak (1952)
Dark is the Sun by Philip Jose Farmer (1980)
Dragon's Egg by Robert L. Forward (1980)
Empire Star, Samuel R Delany (1966)
Galactic Patrol by E. E. "Doc" Smith (1950)
Have Space Suit-Will Travel by Robert Heinlen (1958)
I am Legend by Richard Matheson (1954)
Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny (1967)
Nova by Samuel R. Delany (1968)
Players of Null-A by A E Van Vogt (1956)
Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs (1917)
She by H. Rider Haggard (1887)
Star Maker Olaf Stapledon (1937)
Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein (1959)
Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein (1961)
The Big Time – Fritz Leiber (1957)
The Drowned World, JG Ballard (1962)
The Fifth Head of Cerberus, Gene Wolfe (1972)
The Forever War by Joe Haldeman (1974)
The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams (1979)
The Ice People by Rene Barjavel (1968)
The Illustrated Man by Ray Bradbury (1951)
The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlen (1966)
The Ophiuchi Hotline by John Varley (1977)
The Space Merchants by Frederik Pohl and C.M. Kornbluth (1953)
The War of the Worlds, HG Wells (1898)
Time Enough for Love by Robert Heinlein (1973)
To Your Scattered Bodies Go by Philip Jose Farmer (1971)
Voyage of the Space Beagle by A E Van Vogt (1950)

>30 rojse:
Thanks, rojse.

>29 rojse:
I have a volume with First and Last Men and Star Maker. After slogging through FALM (and that involved large jumps in my reading), I found Star Maker unfinishable. So! Amazingly! Boring!

#31

To each their own. I found it extremely interesting, and presented some good philosophical ideas in a manner that even I could fairly easily understand.

Rojse, you forgot Steel Beach in #30.

No I didn't, it was first published in 1992.

I asked about older books, to see which the posters on here still thought were worth reading today.

OK, I did have a list but have edited it down to those I have read in the past decade.

The Shockwave Rider by John Brunner (1975)
Day Of The Triffids by John Wyndham (1951)
Brain Wave by Poul Anderson (1953)
A Dream Of Wessex by Christopher Priest (1977)
Timescape by Gregory Benford (1980)
A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller (1959)
Ubik by Philip K. Dick (1968)
Pavane by Keith Roberts (1969)
Dying Inside by Robert Silverberg (1972)
The Disposessed by Ursula Le Guin (1974)
Bring The Jubilee by Ward Moore (1955)

#35

The thing about making lists is that there is always one that I miss, and see later. In this instance, A Canticle for Leibowitz. Excellent book.

>34 rojse:
My mistake!

Ah, I see you got the thread name changed!

#37

I am quite happy about the name change.

I created this thread because I wanted to see what old books still stand up today. It was that or create a thread where we post the most over-rated SF classics. That would have also been fun, and I know quite a few people would have enjoyed that thread.

Choices so far have favored publications written in English. Here are 10 classics from the rest of the world:

From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne -- France 1865
We by Yevgeny Zamyatin -- Russia 1921
The Absolute at Large by Karel Capek -- Czechoslovakia 1922
Aelita by Alexei Tolstoy -- Russia 1923
The Invention of Morel by Adolfo Bioy Casares -- Argentina 1940
Inter Ice Age 4 by Kobo Abe -- Japan 1959
Solaris by Stanislaw Lem -- Poland 1961
Planet of the Apes by Pierre Boulle -- France 1963
Roadside Picnic by Arkady and Boris Strugatsky -- Russia 1971
Last Day of Creation by Wolfgang Jeschke -- Germany 1981

In no particular order, and skipping a few already listed that I mostly agree with for some others not yet listed that I think are just as good.

Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury
Neuromancer by William Gibson (actually not the best of his work, but the only one that makes the 25 year cut-off, and I just don't feel right leaving Gibson out)
The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress By Robert Heinlein
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
I, Robot by Isaac Asimov
20000 Leagues Under The Sea by Jules Verne
Midnight at the Well of Souls by Jack Chalker
Childhood's End by Arthur C Clarke
The White Mountains by John Chistopher
Startide Rising by David Brin

#40

Actually Neuromancer doesn't quite fit the 25 years criteria. First publication was July 1, 1984 so you are 37 days too early. :-)

Dune
Ringworld
Rendezvous with Rama
1984
Childhood's End
Princess of Mars
Starship Troopers
The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress
The Space Merchants
The Time Machine

It was so good to see a list already going, that I didn't have to struggle...

I loved the Hitchiker's Guide when it first came out. I re-read the first few chapters yesterday and found it quite contrived and dull.
I wonder if it's just that I'm older, or is it that it spawned a cottage industry of mocking the conventions of genre fiction (this goes on in SF and Fantasy quite a lot now), so that the humor no longer seems as original.

Only ten:

Dune by Frank Herbert
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
Nova by Samuel Delany
The Cyberiad by Stanisław Lem
Ubik by Philip K. Dick
A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller
Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke (I didn't like Childhood's End...)
The Forever War by Joe Haldeman
The Rediscovery of Man by Cordwainer Smith (OK the collection is newer, but the stories contained in it are old enough to qualify)
and a Strugatsky novel but I can't make my mind up which!

Runners-up:

The Complete Robot by Isaac Asimov
The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Lathe of Heaven by Ursula K. Le Guin
Empire Star by Samuel Delany (it's a bit short to be called a novel though... and I didn't like Babel-17 that much to nominate both)
The Star Diaries by Stanisław Lem
The Chrysalids by John Wyndham (long time since I read this one though)
The Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury (poetry never ages :p)
Emphyrio by Jack Vance (I didn't read that much by him though, he may have better novels)
More than Human by Theodore Sturgeon (should reread)
The Spiteful Planet by Shinichi Hoshi
A feladat by Péter Zsoldos
Ellenpont by Péter Zsoldos
the short stories of Ilya Varshavsky (should reread)

Unsure about The Space Merchants. I read it recently and it was still a great read, but I'm not sure it's such a huge classic. It was really funny that my edition had really dated artwork but the text itself did not have a dated feel, more like to the contrary.

And I would like to vote *against*:
War of Worlds by H. G. Wells (just read this last year and... I don't think it aged well)
Startide Rising by David Brin
Slan in case someone mentions it, it's often on these classics lists but it aged spectacularly badly IMO

#44

I had to put a limit on the number of nominations so someone would not go crazy and nominate a hundred books. And since people nominate different books, most of the true classics would pop up anyway.

I like the idea of anti-recommendations for SF books in general. Perhaps someone should start a thread about it.

Top ten classic titles!?!
but that takes us into the second tier where chutzpah can trump writing. Lemme offer just 3 picks and (I believe) in descending order of popularity, impact and year...

the dystopia classic:
Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell (1949)

a study of mankind:
A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller (1959)

and squeaking in under the wire, a one-of-a-kind worldbuilder:
Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (1982)

post-edit hmmm, all 3 authors redflagged, oh well, orwell....

I have never figured out what a classic IS, only that if "classic" is used as a term for literature, I will stay away from that book! However, I have read a number of the books listed by people here and I enjoyed them and have kept them in my library. I wish I could think well enough to discuss things intelligently with you, haven't been able to do that since I quit smoking, right about the time menopause kicked in - insanity rules in this house. I believe I am going to enjoy this group!

Do people think LEst Darkness Fall is Science Fiction or Fantasy. And what about Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen? I have reread these many times as an adult.

I think Lest Darkness is much more serious and a better example of time displacement, but it opens up history, engineering, invention. So would that be SF?

Hi nhlsecord. I see you're new a LT member. Sanity is allowed but discouraged in this group, so you should fit right in.

The Time Machine, H. G. Wells
Dune, Frank Herbert
Ringworld Larry Niven
We, Yevgeny Zamyatin
1984 George Orwell
Neuromancer, William Gibson
Childhood's End, Arthur C. Clarke
Stand on Zanzibar, John Brunner
To Your Scattered Bodies Go, Philip Jose Farmer
The Star's My Destination, Alfred Bester

By the time we finish this I figure Neuromancer will qualify.

Why nominate ten books, when one will cover all the classics: Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers covers most science fiction that was published before it.

Lest Darkness Fall is Sci-Fi and a very good example of the time displacement / alternate history story.
At the time it was written (1941) I don't think this was a big theme in sci-fi. Mostly it was the world as myth type stories, (the world is the way it is because we believe it is this way). Also they tended to be 'I want to change history but they won't let me.
Having just reread it it surprized me that it was 50+ years old. It reads as if it could have been written today rather that 50+ years ago.

Hi nhlsecord,
Pull up a cyber chair and don't be bashful. Just remember you don't have to be crazy to be here - but it helps!

Hi Carnophile and thank you. I hope I can make sense. I have a quote on my fridge that says says something about "whether madness is the loftiest intelligence".

I haven't seen a vote for The Left Hand of Darkness. While The Dispossessed is an easier read, I thought LHoD was deeper and more significant in terms of introducing social science to SF. I also don't see The Book of the New Sun, which if I remember correctly just sneaks by the time criterion, and is one of the finest pieces of writing that SF has produced. How about The Dying Earth?

I heartily second the motion on A Canticle for Liebowitz, The Stars My Destination, Dune, and The Fifth Head of Cerberus. I also recently reread Out of the Silent Planet and was favorably surprised. As a first-contact novel, it has aged better than I expected.

I reread The Book of the New Sun as part of the LT sf reading group, and it put me off it. Besides, The Fifth Head of Cerberus is the better book, and I'd sooner not have two works by one writer in the top ten.

Top Ten:

I'd like to include some Andre Norton just because she was an early influence on me but in all honesty, they're definite 'B' movie in style and content...

War of the Worlds by H.G, Wells - I prefer this to The Time Machine
Childhood's End from Arthur C. Clarke
The Time Patrol stories from Poul Anderson - there are both novels and short stories in the series
Foundation from Isaac Asimov despite the rather cardboardy characters
As a classic, Stranger in a Strange Land from Robert A. Heinlein though it's not a personal favourite
For Ursula K. Le Guin, I'm going to nominate Word for World Is Forest though, again, not a personal favourite, and it's a novella rather than book (though it has been novelised)
Ward Moore's Bring the Jubilee for Alt Histories and Earth Abides from George R. Stewart
Brian Aldiss's Non-Stop for the 'Lost Generation Ship' type of story
Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury in preference to his The Martian Chronicles

I have Lest Darkness Fall but I don't know if I'd count it as a classic. I also wouldn't consider any of the cyperpunk stuff proper classics - they're beginning to age particularly badly IMO and I could never really buy into direct neural feeds somehow...

--
JohnF
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk

Police Your Planet, anyone else read this one. I have read this every three years for twenty years now.

Ones I haven't seen mentioned (and maybe I missed them):

Classic "B" material -- When Worlds Collide and its sequel After Worlds Collide.

Sociology: Zenna Henderson's The People stories. The original Foundation trilogy, of course.

I don't know how one would classify Philip José Farmer's Riverworld books.

Clifford D. Simak belongs on the list, but I'm not sure which book would qualify.

Nevil Shute's On the Beach fits in the post-Apocalypse sub-genre.

rojse asked people not to nominate books they'd not read since they were a teenager. Is everybody sticking to that?

Personally, I did follow that injunction. However, I question the validity of the premise that books read in the teenage years = nostalgia. For some of us, being a teenager ended about 45 minutes ago. For others, including yours truly, as teenagers we read War and Peace in draft form as a favor to the author, and nostalgia has nothing to do with our valuing it and its ilk as "classic."

I took rojse to be discouraging us from uncritically listing books that were special to us before our tastes matured and our critical standards were in embryo. Some teenagers have pretty sophisticated sensibilities. Others read for the first and only time such undisputed classics as "The Tempest", Great Expectations and Valley of the Dolls.

And anyway, what's wrong with nostalgia? A book that makes a powerful impression on an unformed mind still might have something going for it in a big way. Maybe a topic for another thread would be "greatest hits of nostalgia."

I would have to say that alot of Jburlinson makes sense.

And what if one is a teenager and recommending to this list. In any event classics are classics and many of us are adult enough to know what one is when we read it. Even when we revisit a classic as a much older adult and don't like it as much as we did when we were teenagers, doesn't mean it might not still be a classic.

I have noticed that there are many books that several don't like as an adult that they did as a younger person. But tastes change. I like Georgette Heyer and try my hand at writing Regency Romances. But tell that to my adolescent male self of 30 years ago fantasizing about the cheerleaders at high school and reading Asimov and Heinlein and I would tell you that you were smoking something.

One man's(Woman's, teenagers) classic is another persons drek. No matter how many lists we keep formulating, someone is not going to be happy. There are many people who want the inclusion of work by Heinlein on any of the lists these last two months, but there are some who totally dislike all Heinlein.

Science Fiction is a big, really broad genre. I think we should like that we get lists with such diversity.

(One person's) classic is another person's drek. No matter how many lists we keep formulating, someone is not going to be happy.

Well, the idea isn't so much to take the list seriously, but to have fun bloviating. It's like arguing, over a beer or three, whether Joe Montana was a better quarterback than Wayne Gretsky was a hockey player. Fun as a framework for a BS session, but for God's sake don't take it too seriously!

62: Carnophile
Here! Here! Have a beer on me

Wait, wait. Montana played hockey?

#60
That was what I was after, jburlinson - mature tastes in reading.

I don't know what the nostalgia thread would be about - would it be what you thought was good as a teenager, or what you think now compared to as a teenager?

#61
I suppose that if I were a teenager posting now (not too long ago, really) I would put up one or two books that I might agree with now, but I was quite insular in my reading as a teenager, and without that diversity in reading, it's hard to compare to the genre as a whole, and proclaim books being worthy of the title "Classic".

The compilation of these lists helps me to try and get some idea of what the general consensus of informed opinion (ie forum posters here) views as being good, because it is impossible to keep up with what is being released today, let alone do that and read the best of what has already been released.

>63 usnmm2: Thanks! You have any Sam Adams Black Lager?

>64 Linkmeister: Only when he had three beers in him.

Sam Adams makes a black larger? I have to look into that!

I think the problem with identifying sci fi classics is that the genre is so large and covers such a large variety of story types, plots. Hard sci fi, soft sci fi, space opera, etc.. Add to it that in the seventies they combined science fiction and fantasy (still a mistake in my book), that alone doubled the possibilities. Also for the most part it still is aimed at the younger readers. So when people asked about classics they tend to look at what got them hooked and still is widely read and talked about.
I think that we must redifine what a classic is for sci fi.
In most of literature the "classic' are books that transcend time. You read them and can idetify with the story or charactors no matter when the book was writen. Of human Bondage, The Good Earth or Les Miserables are all classics every generation rediscovers them and can get it.
But with sci fi we tend to look at the future ( we're optomists) and try and see what will be 5 ,10, 100 years from now. If the author guesses right or thinks logiclly, we tend to think of that as a classic.
But I think that a classic sci fi is one that defines a type of story that everyone ends up copying endlessly. Or writes something that brings into focus themes and ideas that are popular at that time and place.
I know I'm rambling a bit so I hope some of you get my basic drift.

# 65 -- I guess the nostalgia thread would be about books for which you still have genuine affection, even though, objectively, you'd have to acknowledge they aren't really very good. Tom Swift, for example? "Swift by name and swift by nature" -- still gives me pleasure to say that! I wouldn't want to read one again, though.

The War of The Worlds by H. G. Wells

my favorite by far

Nominated at least twice:

(8) Dune – Herbert (1965)
(5) A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller (1959)
(5) Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke
(5) The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin
(5) The Stars My Destination, Alfred Bester (1956)
(4) Rendezvous with Rama, Arthur C Clarke (1972)
(3) 1984 by George Orwell (1948)
(3) The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlen (1966)
(3) Ringworld, Larry Niven (1970)
(3) Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner (1968)
(3) The War of the Worlds, HG Wells (1898)
(3) To Your Scattered Bodies Go by Philip Jose Farmer (1971)
(2) Bring The Jubilee by Ward Moore (1955)
(2) Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury (1953)
(2) The Fifth Head of Cerberus, Gene Wolfe (1972)
(2) The Forever War by Joe Haldeman (1974)
(2) Foundation, Isaac Asimov (1951)
(2) The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams (1979)
(2) Nova by Samuel R. Delany (1968)
(2) Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs (1917)
(2) Ringworld Larry Niven (1970)
(2) The Space Merchants by Frederik Pohl and C.M. Kornbluth (1953)
(2) Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein (1959)
(2) Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein (1961)
(2) The Time Machine, H. G. Wells (1895)
(2) Ubik by Philip K. Dick (1968)
(2) We by Yevgeny Zamyatin (1921)

20000 Leagues Under The Sea by Jules Verne (1870)
The Absolute at Large by Karel Capek (1922)
Aelita by Alexei Tolstoy (1923)
After Worlds Collide by Philip Whylie (1933)
The Big Time – Fritz Leiber (1957)
Brain Wave by Poul Anderson (1953)
City by Clifford D. Simak (1952)
Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (1982)
Dark is the Sun by Philip Jose Farmer (1980)
Day Of The Triffids by John Wyndham (1951)
Dragon's Egg by Robert L. Forward (1980)
A Dream Of Wessex by Christopher Priest (1977)
Dying Inside by Robert Silverberg (1972)
Earth Abides by George R. Stewart (1949)
Empire Star, Samuel R Delany (1966)
From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne (1865)
Galactic Patrol by E. E. "Doc" Smith (1950)
Have Space Suit-Will Travel by Robert Heinlen (1958)
I am Legend by Richard Matheson (1954)
I, Robot by Isaac Asimov (1950)
Ingathering: The Complete People Stories of Zenna Henderson (1995) (Anthology of Short Stories)
Inter Ice Age 4 by Kobo Abe (1959)
Last Day of Creation by Wolfgang Jeschke (1981)
Lest Darkness Fall L. Sprague DeCamp (1941)
Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny (1967)
Midnight at the Well of Souls by Jack Chalker
Neuromancer by William Gibson (1984)
Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell (1949)
Non-Stop by Brian Aldiss (1958)
On the Beach by Nevil Shute (1957)
Out of the Silent Planet (1938)
Pavane by Keith Roberts (1969)
Planet of the Apes by Pierre Boulle (1963)
Players of Null-A by A E Van Vogt (1956)
Police Your Planet by Lester Del Ray (1956)
Roadside Picnic by Arkady and Boris Strugatsky (1971)
A Scanner Darkly, Philip K Dick (1977)
She by H. Rider Haggard (1887)
Solaris by Stanislaw Lem (1961)
Star Maker Olaf Stapledon (1937)
Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers (1973)
Startide Rising by David Brin (1983)
Shadow of the Torturer (1980)
The Cyberiad by Stanisław Lem
The Drowned World, JG Ballard (1962)
The Dying Earth by Jack Vance (1950)
The Ice People by Rene Barjavel (1968)
The Illustrated Man by Ray Bradbury (1951)
The Invention of Morel by Adolfo Bioy Casares (1940)
The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin (1969)
The Ophiuchi Hotline by John Varley (1977)
The Rediscovery of Man: The Complete Short Science Fiction of Cordwainer Smith (1993) (Anthology of Short Stories)
The Shockwave Rider by John Brunner (1975)
The Time Patrol by Poul Anderson (1955)
The White Mountains by John Chistopher (1967)
Time Enough for Love by Robert Heinlein (1973)
Timescape by Gregory Benford (1980)
Voyage of the Space Beagle by A E Van Vogt (1950)
When Worlds Collide by Philip Whylie (1932)
Word for World Is Forest by Ursula Le Guin (1972)

I really like out top 12, three nominations and above... Definitely Classics all...

Downbelow Station by C. J. Cherryh.

Might as well cast another vote for Dune.

Way too many I haven't read yet . . . but this list is a good place for me to start.

#72
Although I usually disagree with the recommendations of any one particular person, it is surprising how well I agree with the consensus of recommendations (although there are a few I will have to read).

#73
That's why I love list threads.

I get such great recommendations from these lists! Although I read a good share of sci fi as an early teen, I seem to have missed many of the 'classics' - it's very fun to go back through these, see what I've missed, and pick them up for the first time.

So far this year I've done Starship Troopers, The Forever War, The Postman, and I've just started Neuromancer - and I probably have another dozen on my tbr list thanks to these sorts of lists!

One confirmation of these recommendations is that virtually none of these books are available on BookMooch--people must not want to give them up!

tschai series
well of souls (first series)
the forever war +infinite dreams
foundation series
i am legend
childhood s end
earth
alvin maker series

no need to mention authors?

The Black Cloud by Fred Hoyle
Ringworld by Larry Niven
More Than Human by Theodore Sturgeon
Mission of Gravity by Hal Clement
The Space Merchants by Frederik Pohl and C.M. Kornbluth
Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke
1984 by George Orwell
The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlen
To Your Scattered Bodies Go by Philip Jose Farmer
Slan by A. E. Van Vogt

Another vote for the first Dune
The Forever War

All other sf I read was as a teenager. Other than the fact you reminded me how long ago that was, I don't take offense. Actually, thanks for the good idea; I think I will go to the library and reread some of my "favorites" to see if I'm still impressed. The cynic in me says I'm going to ruin some good memories...

Lord of Light by Zelazny is, to me, the greatest of them all. Although Childhood's End isn't that far behind.

I tried the second dune and couldn't get into it . . . is it not good? People seem to be listing the first dune.

The original Dune is very good. The subsequent books in the series by Frank Herbert (i.e. Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune et al) are less good.

The Brian Herbert books in the series are really, really awful.

>82 StormRaven: I agree; exactly. I've re-read the original Dune and will again, but don't think the further books are worth the time.

And, of course, I disagree :-) The Frank Herbert ones are all worth reading; the Brian Herbert & Kevin J Anderson should be avoided.

I think it was Dune Messiah that I tried.

84: I agree that all the Frank Herbert books are worth reading. However, I also think that none of the sequels he wrote are as good as the leadoff volume.

I think, however, that we can agree that anything Brian Herbert has touched is literary poison.

An interesting web page about Science fiction classics by a James Wallace Harris can be found at;

http://classics.jameswallaceharris.com/

It contains several list by variuos authors and Harris;s chioces in 1987 and again twenty years later in 2007. Some interesting things there on what should define a classic.

So glad to see the recognition of The Space Merchants by Pohl and Cornbluth...

I'd also add:
Brave New World
The Sirens of Titan
Half Past Human

Will be wishlisting some of those classics listed above that I've shamefully neglected (We, To Your Scattered Bodies Go...).

Okay, I'll give it a whirl. Top 10 in chronological order:

- Frankenstein - Shelley
- The War of the Worlds - Wells
- The Machine Stops - Forster
- Brave New World - Huxley
- At the Mountains of Madness - Lovecraft
- 1984 - Orwell
- Fahrenheit 451 - Bradbury
- A Clockwork Orange - Burgess
- Slaughterhouse-Five - Vonnegut
- The Handmaid's Tale - Atwood

PS If most of the choices seem a little bit on the "no-brainer" side, it's because I found that somewhat hard to avoid given the parameters set up by the OP.

ETA: Dammit, I forgot about A Princess of Mars. Not sure what I'd kick out to make room for it, though. :/

Browsing the list, I can't believe no one mentioned Make Room! Make Room! by Harry Harrison

Soylent green is people

I'd add Gateway by Frederik Pohl to the list.

#90 I think the exact quote is "Soylent Green is eating people".

I never enjoyed Dune. After reading it I wondered why I'd bothered.

Heresy!

Stone them!

Muad'dib! Muad'dib!

Hm, it seems that I'm alone in that opinion.

I'll reread it in awhile and see if my opinion's changed.

97> you aren't alone
(Running for cover)

I feel like that scene in Kentucky Fried movie. I put on my sprinting shoes, tighten the strap on my helmet, walk into the alley filled with young black men and shout.....

"Dune is overrated!"

Dune is overrated, but I did enjoy it a number of years ago. The two sequels I did read, but have no interest in reading again.

Friday and The Number of the Beast are my favorite Heinlein books, and worthy of mention, unless they're not old enough?

I saw someone else mentioned Downbelow Station, which was/is very very good. I've reread it a number of times.

Ender's Game (again, too 'new'?) was fascinating, and I could not put it down. I read a couple of the sequels, which were pretty good, but the first one remains my favorite.

1984 is a must read for every person. I've read it twice, and had nightmares: I will not read it again!

Most of my other choices are probably more fantasy than SciFi, so I'll let it go at this.

>93 pwaites: et al.

I was a little disappointed in Dune, too, not because it isn't a good book (it is) but because I heard a little too much "this is the greatest novel of all time!" hype before I read it.

101> Same here. Reading the sequels immediately after probably didn't help either.

Kentucky Fried Fremen?

What was that thing called that Muad'dib had to put his hand in to pass some manner of test?

Dune wasn't bad and (strapping helmet on) I actually like Dune Messiah.

100> I'll second Friday, Ender's Game and most especially 1984 (the movie is good too).

Yeah. 1984 messed me up pretty well too. It is in large part responsible for me being the cynical, distrusting, paranoid I am today. It is a MUST read for any serious reader let alone SF fan.

Pfft. You're all wrong. Dune was the weakest book of the series. The last two were easily the best-written of the six. Kevin J Anderson's sequels and prequels are, of course, a blight on the genre.

A blight indeed. The worst example of formula I can think of.

> 103: you mean the gom jabbar, randal.

I actually started my acquaintance with Arrakis by reading Dune Messiah first, and wondered why it didn't make much sense. But I can see where Ian's coming from: I was quite impressed with Chapter House Dune, rather more than I expected to be, especaially after the longeurs of the middle novels of the sequence. (Feed the worm! Feed the worm!)

Of course, anything billed as "the greatest novel of all time" needs to be treated with some measure of suspicion.

I've read and then reread Dune to see if I got it. I think if we put in context the period it came out, a craze of study in comparative religions so we could be more understanding, We see Paul Mohammad, I mean Maud-dib, for what he is. (IMO) Now if Herbert had stopped there, I think it would have been much better than when he went on and wrote more in the series. When I reread those I knew to stop. And it was in much later years as an adult that I found the parallels of the story of Mohammad that were in Dune.

> 107

Muad-dib isn't Muhammad, I think. He's the Mahdi instead. He's the fulfillment of prophecy, rather than the didactic iconoclast.

What parallels do you see with Muhammad?

He goes off to the mountain, er desert, and then when he comes back he brings in this giant change of religion. It has been 30+ years since I read it the first time and 20+ since I read the second, but Dune i felt when I heard the story of Muhammad, not something taught in American grade school history at the time as I recall, seemed quite a clear parallel. No Spice or Worms of course, but the idea of coming with this giant army of the faithful, and in the mythology of the story becoming almost like a God as I recall to his followers seemed to be the story of the Prophet.

Islam does not see Mohammad as an extension of God in that way. He is a human prophet but not a messiah in the Christian sense at all. Also Paul is not really creating a brand new religion but extending and, in a sense, updating the existing Fremen religion. This would be more in line with the Mahdi comparison made in #108.

>109 DWWilkin: Spice = Oil

> 111

Ah, but that too is a better fit with the Mahdi, since oil wasn't valued or extracted in the Arabian peninsula in Muhammad's time. It's only the later developments of technology and trade that gave Muslims (Fremen) critical potential geopolitical ("astropolitical" in Dune) leverage on the basis of a natural resource.

How prevalent is the "blind messiah" in lit and in belief systems?

Just saw Matrix Reloaded and thought about how we've been discussing Dune when I realized that both stories (Dune Messiah of the Dune story) have a blind messiah. This made me wonder (1) how prevalent is it and (2) what's the significance of it?

I wonder if there are notes by Herbert on how he came to write Dune.

> 113

I don't know about "belief systems," but the blind prophet is a huge narrative trope that goes back in Western literature to Tiresias at least. Oedipus at Colonus is another good classical instance.

For an overview with pop culture references, see
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlindSeer

#114 There are several essays by Herbert on the subject: I think Maker of Dune has one or two in it.

>115 paradoxosalpha: That TV Tropes thing is cool.

>117 Carnophile: The problem with the site is trying to leave after you've opened up 30 tabs in your browser and each one leads to 30 more and you just can't stop.

Yah. hanks for he "Tropes" link.

>118 macsbrains:
I know what you mean!

Oh, yes, thanks a lot! Now I'm not going to do anything else today except read the TV Tropes site. One thing leads to another to another to another . . . how have I not seen this before now??

Oh that thing it eats you alive i remmember poping in for a second to check something for our Barbara Hambly interview.

Hi,

Just to add my two cents worth.

1) How has everyone missed the Foundation trilogy?
2) Someone did mention Star Smashers of The Galaxy Rangers by Harry Harrison, but if you're going to use him (and he is most worthy), the Stainless Steel Rat and all its sequels have to be his best.
3) The Day of The Triffods.
4) Someone said I Robot and I agree absolutely.
5) Not sure if it's old enough but Sundiver and its sequels by David Brin.
6) Dune - it's become a pop icon.
7) The Time Machine, H.G. Wells.
8) Not sure if it counts as sci fi, semi religious fiction or fantasy, but C. S. Lewis Out Of The Silent Planet etc.
9) Ringworld, Larry Niven.
10) Robert Silverberg, Lord Valentine's Castle.

Cheers.

A lot of overlaps coming up -- that's a good thing.

Here are my top 4
Resplendent by Stephen Baxter
Star Maker by Olaf Stapledon (which, incidentally, is the name of my wireless network)
The Forever War by Joe Haldeman
The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester

They aren't in 'no particular order'. My favourite is first.
Baxter's book might not be regarded as a classic as it's too recent, but I think is destined to be one, and so I've saved everyone the bother of waiting and listed it anyway.

Riddley Walker by Russell Hoban. Post-apocalypse novel set in England in a brutal, primitive world, ending with the rediscovery of gunpowder.

Don't forget the Strugatsky brothers! Roadside Picnic, of course, and also the books based on the Noon universe... And how can we forget that Monday Begins on Saturday?

ah police your planet was a well told tale.

Any thread on classics that does not mention Flowers for Algernon is a failure.

Note to self: remember to nominate Cyteen by CJ Cherryh next year when it becomes eligible.

What?

No Edmund Cooper? What about A Far Sunset, or Kronk?

No Brian Aldiss? What about Hothouse (Long Afternoon of Earth)?

You lot need to read more.

I'm late to the party here

Were these supposed to be 10 personal favorites? 10 favorites that epitomize some important aspects of science fiction? 10 most influential works? 10 most original?

I think Hothouse belongs in at least one of those.

I guess if I'm limiting myself to books over 25 years old that I've read since a teen-ager -- I don't re-read a lot, I'd go with Bester's The Stars My Destination, Wells' The Time Machine and War of the Worlds.

Taking the re-read requirement away, and going for sheer originality, I'd add Stapledon's Last and First Men and Hothouse.

>129 dgr2: I loved Edmund Cooper as a teen -- one of my very favorites. I have 16 of his works in my library. I reread a number of them recently, and I am sad to have to say they were not as wonderful as they were then. Reread young loves at your peril! I might still recommend Seahorse in the Sky. Kronk I have not reread. This is all separate from the thread of misogyny that runs through some of his books, which I was more willing to overlook at 14. I wish I were not saying this.

I reread the Foundation Trilogy, as it was known once. That too was a mistake.

I've only read A Far Sunset - see here - and while it was nothing earth-shattering, I do plan to seek out more by him at some point.

But if you're talking about British classic sf, then the obvious candidates are DG Compton, Richard Cowper, Keith Roberts, Christopher Evans, Colin Greenland, Leonard Daventry, Rex Gordon, Mark Adlard and Michael G Coney...

>129 dgr2: Please note that post #56 does mention Aldiss.

Maybe you need to read more carefully before insulting the rest of the posters in this thread--as far as I can tell, merely because not everyone exactly shares your taste/judgment. Wow.

129> read them shrug dont make my classics list.

129> read them shrug dont make my classics list.

A couple of recent reads from me that warrant going back to are Tau Zero by Poul Anderson and Greybeard by Brian Aldiss!

One issue with Tau Zero, which I recently reread (and I love Anderson in general) is that character is at a minimum. In addition, I found little there to carry the story besides the one Big Idea, which was exploring relativistic time and distance effects. Much of Anderson's work is filled with suspense, play and intriguing plot lines. Not so in TZ. So to me the book exemplifies the period in SF when it was acceptable to sacrifice plot and character if an author had a sufficiently interesting way of playing with a science theme.

I liked the characters in Tau Zero, and anyway Im not to bothered about characters, I like the ideas ( having said that the characters in Aldiss's Greybeard and Hothouse are great)

130> Just pointing out that Hothouse isn't Hothouse long afternoon of earth. I think it is something to do with the way the book has been catalogued here. But I know what you meant!

131> I read many of them while I was growing up. I was born in 1957, so many of these works were new at the time, or at least recent enough to make them new. I think you are right, rereading or watching anything you enjoyed when you were young can often be a mistake. I think it is to do with context. Once you have experienced a lot of modern and newer stuff, the old stuff, well, becomes old.

132> A Far Sunset was also my favourite. Good list.

133> Yes, you are right, post #56 does mention Brian Aldiss, but for a different book which is probably why I missed it. So thanks for pointing it out. And I am not intending to insult anyone, even those who might think I am. Forgive me if I was too flippant.

And like 134> everyone is entitled to their opinion, and in general I agree with the books and authors listed here. A great many are familiar to me because I read them long ago, while many are not, because I didn't. It is sad to say that most of my reading was done in the early half of my life and I don't think I will ever read as much now or in the future as I did then.

But you never know.

>140 dgr2: I read them probably around the time you did. b. 1958

Re: misogyny: see Five to Twelve aka Gender Genocide aka Who Needs Men? Hard to imagine such a book being published today.

143> Yes, your reference to his misogyny in your post at 131> was a bit of a surprise for me. Like you I read Five to Twelve and Who Needs Men? at a young age and confess that feeling passed me by. I read quite a lot of his work and never picked that up. One of the interesting things about his work were the reversals of the norm, such as in these two books and in All Fools Day and Kronk. An interview with Edmund Cooper in 1973 that can be found through his Wikipedia page at http://www.bondle.co.uk/edmund_cooper/misc_files/interview.pdf puts it all very clearly. He says he is for equality but that brain size thing is disturbing...

I hardly ever delve into the personal traits of authors, or actors for that matter. Although some actors can sometimes be 'in your face' with their political views. But the truth can sometimes change your attitude to their work. Sad really. I believe Orson Scott Card is another author with polarising views, this time on homosexuality. I don't know if that would affect my reading of his books as I have never read any. But I do now have second thoughts about Edmund Cooper, so it would have been interesting to know if I would have read any more of his books if I had been aware of his attitudes at the time.

Very informative convo, Stellar.

Even so, the art is separate from the artist, no? Otherwise we're in great difficulty -- I wouldn't want to give up Miles Davis, but don't condone his violence toward the women in his life. In the case of Cooper, he put it into the works themselves, which is a whole 'nother matter. However, many of his books are quite fine and don't reveal much of this side of him.

I've struggled with Card's views, which he is quite open about, but am more disturbed by the ending of Ender's Game. But no spoilers. Clearly, mine is a minority view, as the book often gets mentioned in "Classics" discussion.

But Miles Davis didn't put his violence towards women in his music, or use his position as a famous musician to promote a message of violence towards women. It doesn't mean he's a nice person, but at least there's a clear line between the artist and the art. Card uses his position as a famous author to promote his views. The same is true of John C Wright, who holds just as odious views. I won't read either of them.

146: The other thing about Card is that he seems to be more or less a one-trick pony insofar as writing goes. Sure, Ender's Game is good, and Speaker for the Dead is too. But all of his other books are either just worse written rehashes of those two, or are simply crappy. I've read a couple of his more recent books, and they were really weak.

>146 iansales: entirely agree on issue of holding views versus putting it into the work.

Closer to home, the late John Brunner could be personally objectionable and abrasive to complete strangers. I know, I caught some backwash from it myself. Yet he wrote some of the most important sf ever - I single out The Shockwave Rider and The Sheep look up.

I would like to add Anne McCaffrey and Elizabeth Moon to the small female author section of our list, mainly for their science fiction contribution such as McCaffrey's The Crystal Singer series (my favourite three books) and Decision at Doona. For Moon it is Remnant Population rather than her usual military style books, although I have read some of these too.

>149 RobertDay: In the souvenir book from last year's Eurocon in Stockholm there's a personal memory from the first Eurocon in 1972, written by John-Henri Holmberg that contains some bits about Brunner.

eurocon2011.se/sites/default/files/Eurocon2011SouvenirBook.pdf (PDF)

How about Palace of Eternity by Bob Shaw, which has the best opening sentence of any SF book!

iansales at #146: Card uses his position as a famous author to promote his views. The same is true of John C Wright, who holds just as odious views. I won't read either of them.

Oh, I'll even read them - but I'll certainly think carefully before sending any money their way. ( haven't bought a new book from Card since the year 2000; I once bought a remaindered book by Wright, but even that was before his crack-up.)

and
stellarexplorer at #137: One issue with Tau Zero, which I recently reread (and I love Anderson in general) is that character is at a minimum.

I like to think of that as a feature, not a bug.
Not every story has to be a sensitive exploration of the subtle nuances of character. That's why there are different genres of fiction.

>153 AsYouKnow_Bob: I'll go with it's a feature. It just doesn't happen to be one that works well for me. It once probably would have. Something happened to me somewhere along the line. If only we had sophisticated enough brain imaging technology...

> 152: I'll go with that. 'Palace of Eternity' is one hell of a novel, with more high concepts in a short novel than most block-busters. My review is the middle of the three listed...

https://www.librarything.com/work/187584/reviews/24621111

How about Dick's Flow my tears the policeman said, a great book and the only Dick novel Ive liked so far!

Years ago I read a series by J.G. Ballard: The Drowned World, The Crystal World, The Wind from Nowhere, and one other whose name escapes me. I remember them as powerful.

The Burning World aka The Drought -- the former title makes the earth, air, wind and fire theme more obvious.

>158 ChrisRiesbeck: Thank you. I knew the book had something to do with fire (it pretty much had to), but for some reason didn't think of the obvious title.

Thanks for "no Heinlein". I have loved the juveniles since I was...well, a juvenile, and still do. But I am coming to the end of a project the aim of which was to read all of Heinlein's novels, and it has affected my opinion of him as an artist. I have read all of the novels except for "Time Enough for Love" and "The Number of the Beast" and I find the large later novels somewhat bloviated and unsatisfying. I am new to Librarything, so you purists please don't flame me too harshly.

I don't think you'll get much of an argument from the majority. His later novels also became an outlet for his increasingly strange sexual fantasies.

>160 Superdave08:

The turning point for me came at about Glory Road. I still ploughed on and devoured the rest, though. Whatever the content, his writing just sucked me along.

>160 Superdave08: I actually think Time Enough for Love was the exception that proved the rule for Heinlein's evolution as a writer. I couldn't stand most of his "dirty old man" novels. I couldn't even finish Number of the Beast, which is saying a LOT, since I try to plow on to the bitter end with almost any book.

However, for some strange reason, Time Enough for Love is one of my favorite Heinlein novels. One helpful aspect is that it is broken up into smaller, self-contained stories that are linked by an overall arc, and he spends more time on philosophy than sexuality (more time, not ALL time!) The Tale of the Adopted Daughter is my favorite.

My feeling too. I liked TEfL, though not many of his other later novels.

Agree with y'all about the author's personal views versus what he puts into the stories. This is why I can watch movies with Tom Cruise or John Travolta or Charlton Heston in them.

>115 paradoxosalpha: et seq:

xkcd on TV Tropes: http://xkcd.com/609/

I will have to throw my hat in the ring and attempt this.

I agree and disagree with many of the previously books and statements but keeping with 10 books 25 yrs old or older and a definition of Classic that I have read here is my list. The order is my favorites and yes there is 11.

Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe - Douglas Adams
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep - Philip K Dick
The Man Who Folded Himself - David Gerrold
Farmer in the Sky - Heinlein
Stranger in a Strange Land - Heinlein
The Mote in Gods Eyes - Niven & Purnell
The Time Machine - Wells
War of the World - Wells
Rendezvous with Rama - Arthur C Clark
Dune - Frank Herbert
2001 Space Odyssey - Arthur C Clark

Er, Rendezvous with Rama was Arthur C Clarke.

>167 tajohnson: The only ones we agree on are Dune and maybe TMWFH, which is still vivid after more than 35 years...

>167 tajohnson: "Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe - Douglas Adams"

Hmm. To me this is anti-SF. It is (very successfully) scathing of SF's mission to seek out patterns of the future. It is not funny SF, it makes fun of SF.

I'm on-side with Alan, there. I never rated Douglas Adams as a writer of prose. (Dave Langford once said that "Not even Douglas Adams always does Douglas Adams one-liners well", and I think he was being generous there.) The original radio show was another matter; funny, both for its presentation as sound drama (which was not so much to do with DA) and for its knowingness about media sf tropes.

I had trouble getting up today, until I read the two above posts. I have always felt the same way! I have never enjoyed SF spoof.

I do enjoy artful SF spoof, but I agree that The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy doesn't rate as SF, only as a humor. (And I too prefer the radio shows to all later incarnations.)

I reviewed the CDs of the first radio series here: https://www.librarything.com/work/2491368/reviews/59192582

Ten books really isn't enough. Nonetheless:
The Time Machine H.G. Wells
The Martain Chronicles Ray Bradbury
City Clifford Simak
The Stars My Destination Alfred Bester
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep Philip K. Dick
Rogue Moon Algis Budrys
A Canticle for Leibowitz Walter M. Miller, Jr.
Dying Inside Robert Silverberg
The Forever War Joe Haldeman
Gateway Frederik Pohl