Fantasy Cliches

In the Tigana thread, people are starting to mention Fantasy story cliches that always pop up. I thought this discussion should have it's own thread.

My favorite,

I call "The Gloop of Gleep", wherein there is some magical item that must be sought out in order to put things right. In my world, it's the Gloop of Gleep.

Along the way, you meet the happy Pthor, fight the malevolent Frang, and pass through the land of Vg'nath to reach the Gloop of Gleep.

How about The Pig Boy Syndrome? Our Hero is working on Uncle Eejits farm, with nary a clue about his destiny. I've seen some of my favorite authors use this set-up. I believe Lloyd Alexander, Ursula Leguin and David Eddings have used it. It's the premise of the very successful Eragon. Even George Lucas used it in the first Star Wars flick. I'm not saying there's anything innately wrong with it, just that it's overused.

I've had it pointed out to me that Pig Boy Syndrome is a direct descendant of Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. I noticed it after reading The Wheel of Time, The Belgariad, and then Eragon in fairly quick succession, hence this bit in my Eragon review:

On a very basic level, this is a very archetypical/stereotypical fantasy hero story: a boy, living with his uncle/adoptive father on a farm. He doesn't know who his parents are or what happened to them. He has some magical object/special powers, which is cause enough for the henchmen of the forces of Evil to seek him out. He manages to escape the initial attack, sometimes by fighting, usually by being somewhere else at the time. The farm is ruined and usually the uncle/adoptive father hurt/killed. The boy is forced to flee in the company of someone he's not sure he can trust (who is always more than what they seem), so that he can a) seek revenge for the dead uncle/adoptive father, b) fight evil, c) find out about his real parents, who are usually long-lost royalty/magicians/someone special d) deal with the magical object/powers, and d) meet his destiny and fulfill the prophecies.

If you look at it, the same elements are basically there in Harry Potter, too, except it's his parents' home, not his adoptive parents' home that gets destroyed by the forces of evil.

One of the things I liked best about The Prydain Chronicles is that, while it fulfilled most of the other criteria, Taran's folks were just... folks, and he wasn't some long-lost princeling.

There's a very good book that anyone interested in screenwriting should read, it's The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler... it's based upon Joseph Campbell's work, and takes these cliche principles and applies them specifically to movies (including Star Wars)... it's a very interesting book.

Anyway, one of the cliches that appears in an awful lot of fantasy stories is that of the Mentor - usually in the shape of a wizard, or a wise old character though not always - who will set the Young Hero on his journey, and will probably die, or leave before the Young Hero has to take on the Bad Guy by himself. Though they're not always that easy to spot, and sometimes not there at all (damn, I'm losing valubale cliche points here)... for example, who's the Mentor in Tigana? Sandre perhaps? He doesn't really fill the position, but he is a wise old man. Alessan? Not really either, but he does send Devin on his journey...

anyway, the cliche I bring to the table is - the Mentor. Merlin and Gandalf would be good examples, though I'm sure there are many more.

Joseph Campbell and Mircea Eliade (among others, I'm sure) take the position that these "cliches" (a.k.a. motifs) recur because they are psychologically powerful. It's as if there is one true Platonic-ideal fantasy novel (a.k.a. myth), and everyone is trying to get it right, and succeeding only more or less. At least I always found that way of thinking of it tantalizing.

As for cliches, that's how I've always felt about Shakespeare -- he's not bad, but his writing is so full of cliches ;-).

I'm sure you're right, beorn. "These "cliches" (a.k.a. motifs) recur because they are psychologically powerful."

What could have more impact than having one's peaceful agrarian existence shattered forcibly, (or by personal choice) followed by finding oneself thrust in the midst of a world preserving quest?

Note: I'm sure my wording is off. The cold meds are starting to slow my brain.

I guess cliches are cliches because, ultimately, they're a very boiled down version of some kind of definitive human concept? truth? state of being? Symbol? You know? Something like that.

The cliche of the young farmboy saving the world, for example - isn't that what all decent human beings would like to be able to say they could achieve with their lives? (That sentence is far too wordy, I think Clam's cold meds have spread across the 'net to England ;-)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that cliches are cliches for good reason... if a cliche was inherently false, or just something that you couldn't (or wouldn't want to) believe in, then it wouldn't be a cliche for long?

The young farm boy symbolically represents every young adult human, shaking off the shackles of his or her youth and embracing adulthood? Stepping up to the challenge of becoming your own person, no longer depedant on others (parents, guardians, great Uncle Eejit on his homely pig farm?)... trying, and often failing at first, to defeat the evil powers that threaten our way of life (I'm thinking the electricity bill that's not long popped through my door has to be considered evil!)...

Is this making sense? I'm a little short on high-brow conversational skills :-)

Tane - no, that makes total sense.

I think the PigBoy cliche works partly for the reasons you said - that everyone wants to think that they too have the potential seeds of greatness in them, that if they "shook off the shackles", they too could save the world. Also, though, I think it works because it's universally relatable - not all of us have had our uncle's farm burned down by orcs or whatnot, but we've all been in a situation where we've been thrust away from "home", out of our comfort zone, and into the scary wide world to fend for ourselves.

Maybe that's why the PigBoys always seem to be teenagers, eh? Having to establish who you are outside of the familiarity of home, literally and metaphorically?

You also saw this mythic characteristic developed in Navin R. Johnson, when he discovered his "special purpose", and left his poor black family to go work at the gas station. I was always deeply moved by that.

LOL, Atomic. :oÞ~~
I'm a fan of The Jerk, as well. But what was his quest? And what greater purpose did he serve, hmmm?

I'm trying to figure out why the hero is always a boy, though. Can anyone give me an example of a tale that fits this motif, but has a female character who triumphs? The only heroine I can think of Dorothy Gale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Sto_Helit (I still can't get that thing to work ;-)

I'd say that Susan Sto Helit from the Discworld novels fulfills that position, as the young teen who grows up to have a bigger destiny... though there's a lot more to her character than that. She's the first one that came to mind, and as I say, her story is a little different from the traditional teen saves the world thing.

Gosh, I'm having a hard time thinking of novels with female protagonists.

The Wheel of Time focuses on a boy, but there are two girls from Rand's home village who also leave when it's destroyed, and have to go out into the wide world to learn about their magic and become powerful and play their part in saving the world, I guess, but they're kind of overshadowed by the central character who fills all of the requirements for being a PigBoy.

Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness quartet has a female protagonist, but she doesn't fit any of the cliches except the saving-the-world bit.

Hmmm... going to have to think about this.

The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon, a trilogy, has a female protagonist that seems to fit the cliche. It's about a sheepfarmer's daughter *grins* who finds out she has been gifted as a paladin.

This message, left blank like my last three, requiring this edit, are why I am kinda down on LibraryThing right now. :( I love ya all, but I am going to ask Tim S. a few questions.

Cinderella. Don't laugh -- she's the classic case of the scullery maid that turns out to be royalty by birth. Think Princess Diaries. Or Tithe, where the girl turns out to be a faerie princess.

Oh beorn, those ladies are only on quests for true love!
:oS It's a wonderful thing to have, no doubt, but it's not so noble, IMHO. ;o)

why not? why can't the quest for pure, true love be a noble one? would it be a worthy quest for a male character? not trying to pick on you, clamairy. :)

adding to beorn's list of modern day cinderellas- I enjoyed Ella Enchanted

I guess what I meant was it's a selfish quest, benefiting only the seeker. (Well, and probably benefiting the 'sought after,' too...) So, it may be noble, but self-centered. The kind of grand quest I'm thinking of usually involves saving many lives, maybe a whole village or country, or possibly the entire world, galaxy, or universe.

Just wanted to let you know I edited an above post to give a little more info.

Oh, sandragon, have you read The Deed of Paksenarrion? And if you have, please tell us if it's a good read! :o)

Heh heh! So now we have Pig-boys and Sheep-girls!

I'm thinking we should start writing a fantasy novel, before someone steals our idea! LOL

I remember enjoying The Deed of Paksenarrion but the details are fuzzy. Nuts, that means another book in the 'to reread' pile, right next to the TBR pile.

I do remember my brother-in-law enjoying the series, and he usually sticks to science fiction.

The Deed of Paksenarrion is quite remarkable at first sight it seems so derivative. The universe is straight out of the original AD&D Players and Dungeonmasters guide. with special attention paid to the paladin section..
But by dint of good writing, characteristation and an understanding of the methods and mindsets of those trained for close order low tech combat. The development of Paksenarrion.
From a raw mercenary recruit to the epitome of Paladinhood becomes absorbing.

Elizabeth Moon Shows that if you are willing to put in the work you can turn a pigs ear int a silk purse.

Hmm I think I will post this in reviews.

The Nedao stories by Ru Emerson are about a princess (and then queen) who is searching for a new safe home for the remnants of her people. She has to do a lot of growing up in the process. Not sure if this is a "quest". Other books with heroines looking for something more than love: The Blue Sword and The Hero and the Crown, by Robin McKinley; The Paladin by C. J. Cherryh. The heroine in The Paladin is seeking revenge for her slaughtered farm family and pigs are mentioned. All of these are excellent stories.

Okay, what's with the almost ubiquitous pigs? Anyone?

Okay, what's with the almost ubiquitous pigs? Anyone?

Now that is an interesting question... I have no idea, but perhaps Pig Farming, historically, is considered the simplest, most rural of jobs (though I'm sure it's not)?

I'm sure if we discover the true meaning of pigs, then we may very well start to ascend to some higher state of being :-)

Hmm, I'm wondering if it has to do with how Western culture generally holds the pig in such low esteem. It's ridiculous, really. They have been proven to be as smart as dogs. So pig boy/girl, even one from a successful pig farm, would be rather low on the social scale, without being a neerdowell.

I guess pigs always have been seen as dirty animals, and also the animals of the poor, seeing that they eat waste, so are really cheap to keep. So that would make a pigboy be one of the 'lowest' people, not only poor but also dirty. And you've got the smell of pig that really does stick to you, which you can interpret as being like the mark of your birth that is really hard to get away from, so the change from pigboy to something honoured is much bigger than anything else.

Ah yes, the smell. I've driven through some parts of in Illinois and Iowa that are known for their pig farms. It's not a pretty smell. The sad thing is, pigs are actually quite clean, when allowed to be. We force them to, well... live like pigs, and then think less of them for it.

Getting away from the bigger themes for a second, a cliche in fantasy that drives a friend of mine crazy (he's been known to quit reading a book when he encounters it) is ubiquitous in battle scenes: When one fell, two sprang up to take his place.

"When one fell, two sprang up to take his place."

Oh yeah. I've seen this many time, and seen it paraphrased.
:oS
I wonder... who actually used it first?

Isn't that a description of the Hydra? The labors of Hercules.

Oh yes! It is!

From Answers.com: "Hydra, in Greek mythology, many-headed water serpent; offspring of Typhon and Echidna. When one of its heads was cut off, two new heads appeared. The second labor of Hercules was to kill the monster. He did so by burning the neck after cutting off each head."

Funny. I would'a killed its torso and been done with it. Only one of those. :S

Yeah, but the heads are the dangerous pointy bits that are presumably protecting the torso from killing.

Okay, you guys have absolutely helped me make up my mind about my next Big Project!

I've been toying around with trying my habd at NaNoWriMo this year (National Novel Writing Month is November), so now I just HAVE to write a book called THE PIGBOY CHRONICLES, heee heeeee!!!

On Wikipedia there is an entry entitled Fantasy Tropes which discusses the stuff we are talking about here i e all the things that are common factors in Fantasy stories. Joseph Campbell talked a lot about this tho w/o using that specific wording in the the TV series he did w/Bill Moyers which was based on his book The Hero with A Thousand Faces. I watched that series before i had read any fantasy books tho i had seen some of the movies they discussed-especially Star Wars. The series was filmed at Skywalker Ranch & George Lucas participated in some of the discussions it is on DVD i am sure & is very interesting. 8^)

Last night at our book group we noted another fantasy trope found in many fables: child is raised by widowed mother, or other relatives, and is crippled in some way but is bright, kind and admirable. Matures to go on a quest and save her/his people, who had been so rejecting of her/him when he/she was younger. Odd and the Frost Giants

No one has mentioned King Arthur. If he isn't the father of the PigBoys, he is surely the older brother of Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter and My Sweet Wesley.

And I got a giggle out of the post about Shakespeare. I am reminded of a Louis L'Amour character (I think it was) who complained that he didn't think Shakespeare deserved all his fame. The lines in his plays were things the cowboy had heard his whole life. This Shakespeare fella had probably just copied them. Will is full of cliches, but they weren't when he first used them.

Our Will copied a good number of cliches (mostly from copies of Roman copies of Greek comedies). But he did it with, panache, style and a bloody good style underneath it.

An archetypal story with good writing will always beat a shoddily written original story in my books. An original story with good writing is hard to find.

I actually quite like trope stories when they're well written. This is why I was torn with Avatar, of course. It's a down-the-line trope story, unashamedly. I'm not sure it had the writing to back it up, though, despite the pretty-pretties.

>10 clamairy:: I'm coming late to this conversation but some books that might fit your criteria are books I have tagged as "urchins with animals" in my catalog. (-:,

Female 'pig boys' (Other than Paks).

Ash in Ash by Mary Gentle - raped at 8, abandoned urchin.

Phedre in Kushiel novel - sold as a child to a whorehouse, despised by 'owners'

Tobin in The Bone Doll's Twin - a twist in the classic tale. Tobin is the child of nobility fallen on grim times, with a dead mother (suicide).

Liath in The Crown of Stars - one of an ensemble key cast - holding great, hidden power (and is central to 'saving the world'), but is an orphan sold into slavery initially.

Another Ash in Sword of Shadows - shares hero status with male counterpart - again holds hidden power central to saving the world, and is an abandoned orphan.

That's all I can think of right now.

Another one is Jill in Daggerspell (the Deverry books)

38 - Maggie, I thought of A Door in the Wall when you said that, and Quest of the Fair Unknown, although Beaufils is just naive, not really disabled or anything.

Then there's the mythic journey that our Pig-Boy, Sheep-Girl or random Hero must go on to discover his/her/its dark side and then triumph.

The ignorant youth, the hidden royalty, the discovery of signs, the quest, the trials, the special power(s), and the triumph are all present in the story of Theseus.

Both he and Arthur also share the less than perfect "ever after."

#36 - Groo, if you write it, will you let us read it?

#41 - "Urchins with animals" -- splendid.

There's nothing like bringing a good thread back from the dead.
:oD
It LIVES!

I think that the Arrows of the Queen series by Mercedes Lackey is an example of farmgirl who escapes harsh living and helps save her country. The Harper Hall trilogy by Anne McCaffrey has a strong young fisher folk girl, but she only assists in eventual world-saving in one of the other books of Pern. Oh, Lessa helps save Pern, as the secret heir to the Lord holder...*strong* is an understatement for Lessa. But for some reason, these two writers seem to be somewhat unpopular on LT.