My FS Order from November, 2010

First, the order was split into two parts when shipped... because of the weight of all those books. They say both packages were shipped the same day. Second, one book has been backordered so will be dispatched even later... which I don't mind so much. Third, all that nasty weather in the UK, and here in the USA too, probably delayed my order from having arrived before the holidays.

The first part of my order arrived today, Sent from London. That box contained:

The Three Musketeers set - Battered condition, noted below.
The Folio Society Calendar 2011 (Free) - Okay
A set of 8 gorgeous Christmas Cards (Free) - Fine
Folio Magazine 2010-2011 (Free) - Very pristine

Plus my advice (invoice) for the entire order; most of which has yet to arrive.

Still awaiting arrival of the second package, (arrived 21 January, 2011; box broken in shipping, but all contents remained in the box and secured inside the white bag.) which contained:

The Ionian Mission - No shipping damage
Treason's Harbour - No shipping damage
Robinson Crusoe - No shipping damage
Complete World of Greek Mythology (not an FS publication) - bumped on corner, dust jacket scratched; good condition otherwise
Little Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs - (not an FS publication - Free) - No shipping damage, no apparent manufactuing errors. Not shrink wrapped. The undamaged condition of this book is somewhat surprising due to the fact that it was in the box, but not inside the bubble wrap. There was plenty of room for that book to move about inside the box.

This package was better wrapped, but the book on Greek Mythology broke through the wrap and sustained minor damage.

Backordered and dispatched separately:
Nobel: A Century of Prize Winners (Free) - Received 18 Jan 2011 Sharon Hill, PA USA warehouse. Near perfect condition.

Problems:

First, they disregarded my $10 coupon that was enclosed with the order, and that discount was not deducted from my balance due.

Second, the slip case for my Three Musketeers set is damaged in three places, and while I might be able to repair that damage myself, I'm not so inclined. This is mostly because I would have to order the paper or cloth with which I could cover the slipcase, along with some acid-free glue and pay shipping on that order.

Third, I actually consider more of an amusement than a real problem. The Man in the Iron Mask was bound upside down. Did anyone else who chose this set for their renewal premium receive an upside down volume, or am I just the lucky one? I'll be keeping mine, because I can easily turn the book upside down and still read it - which is why I buy books in the first place.

So, I'll send an email to FS Customer service about these first two problems.

>1 1dragones:

1d, thanks for your story.

If folio remains true to form, they won't replace the slipcase by itself, they'll replace the set, so you won't need to read The Man in the Iron Mask standing on your head:)

A word of caution to any member, and especially the newbies: Beware accepting one-off books(or any item from any club where regular purchasing is done) at full price or at sale price when faults are not noted beforehand. Members who accept one-offs may continue to receive them, and newbies may be tested with one-offs to determine if they may be suitable for receiving more damaged or faulty stock in the future.

2. >>>>If folio remains true to form, they won't replace the slipcase by itself...

Probably because an empty slip case would be more difficult to protect in transit

>>>> Members who accept one-offs may continue to receive them, and newbies may be tested with one-offs to determine if they may be suitable for receiving more damaged or faulty stock in the future.

So, you're saying they probably knew that they sent me a faulty copy of The Man in the Iron Mask, even though the set was shrink-wrapped as most FS books are?

I'm guessing the slipcase was probably fine when packed, but damaged in shipping. The FS employee didn't use nearly enough bubble wrap on this order.

For that matter, I've not opened the shrink wrap on my first 7 Aubrey-Maturin books, so any or all of them could have been bound upside down or something more serious and I wouldn't know... Leaving that shrink-wrap in place might have been a bad idea on my part. I guess when the next two volumes arrive, I'll open up the whole set for inspection... well, all 9 that I've purchased to date, anyhow.

>3 1dragones:

I don't know that a bubblewrap-stuffed and bound slipcase in a similar sized carton would be more difficult to protect, seems that the lightweight package would resist damage better if dropped or bounced around. Nevertheless, receiving a complete replacement volume for a busted slipcase is a great deal, if you're willing to tell them about it. Most damaged slipcases I've had seemed the result of shipping, that is the dented and busted slipcased books were inside mangled cartons. I have had a few dented corner slipcases, some with a corresponding crushed board corner, that arrived in undamaged cartons, so they may have been damaged preshipping. The coupla slipcases with torn, missing pieces of colored paper represent preshipping damage to me. The several volumes I've received with scratched,scraped, or worn boards in faultless slipcases represent pre-shipping damage, and possibly were returns.

>>>>So, you're saying they probably knew...no, the word possibly is more accurate, hence the use of the word -may-. This year at devotees I've seen good evidence of deception about pricing, materials, and advertising, so naturally the principle of caveat emptor, which is not a curse phrase but a suggestion for common sense in the marketplace, should be applied when evidence of faulty products is noted. Maybe now it should be applied to any FS purchase at any time on principle. Why 'members who accept one-offs' and 'newbies'-because marketing departments track buying traits, so 'members who accept' may accept again, and 'newbies' may be inexperienced and accept a one-off as a bonafide first, and repeatedly.. These marketing tactics represent big bucks for a company, especially for a luxury provider who may turnaround a 0$ reject into a 2X UK price non-sale profitmaker overseas.

About the shrinkwrapping process, I would think quality control measures for book production would take place before the wrap, but I don't know.

I remember I bought Perrault's Fairy Tales several years ago, didn't examine it thoroughly upon receipt, and was surprised a coupla years later to find duplicate illustrations towards the rear of the book. So now, tho I may not read the book for years to come, I look it over closely for such things so that it may be replaced.

4.>>> "I would think quality control measures for book production would take place before the wrap, but I don't know."

I hardly think that if quality control measures were in place that they would not have known that at least a few copies, - or even just one copy - of The Man in the Iron Mask had been bound upside down. I do suspect mine is not unique in that aspect. My having received such a copy within a shrink-wrapped slipcase testifies to one or the other of the following:

Quality control measures are slipshod at best or
They knew and attempted to pass off a defective copy.

Fortunately I chose the Three Musketeers as my renewal premium, for just $4.95, so if they choose to do nothing, I still get that much value from those three books.

Yes, I did e-mail FS this afternoon (15 January 2011) and told them about these problems.

>5 1dragones: Quality control measures are slipshod at best or
They knew and attempted to pass off a defective copy.

I think this is a little unfair.

No Quality Control process is going to check 100% of output, unless it is for a life-critical product, and even then it is not the norm. Faulty products are always likely to get through now and again.

I have absolutelly no doubt that there will be a replacement copy on its way to you shortly, now you have told them about it.

And if they did want to try to deliberately pass off a defective copy, do you not think that they would pass it on to someone in the UK, so that they didn't spend so much on postage and then potentially on the replacement postage?

I do, however, agree with Olepuppy that books should be checked as soon as they arrive, and not left for years in the shrinkwrap. If a mistake has arisen, that is the easiest time to get it rectified.

A book bound upside down can absolutely be a one-off; I doubt very much that the FS would mail defective books deliberately, considering that they willingly send replacement copies.

Serious accusations. Where is the evidence?

I'm really surprised by post #2. While there are justifiable grounds for complaints regarding the FS methods of pricing for overseas members, this is the first time that I have seen accusations such as these aired on this forum.
Has anyone evidence that the FS operates in this way?
Surely they would not stay long in business if this were the case. I have purchased many books from them, and while I find their sales somewhat less than generous in the discounts offered, never have I had a book shipped to me that was less than perfect in every way.

>8 Willoyd: & 9

In all fairness I read a positive comment about the FS's fantastic replacement policy in message 2. As for 'serious accusations'/ 'accusations', I read general advice about book clubs and book faults in general and nothing specific about the FS.

Maybe you can help me by pointing out the specific accusations towards the FS.

6. >>>>And if they did want to try to deliberately pass off a defective copy, do you not think that they would pass it on to someone in the UK, so that they didn't spend so much on postage and then potentially on the replacement postage?

Well, yes, but that would only be possible if they knew exactly which slipcase contained the defective copy. If they merely knew there was a one-off in there "somewhere" they could still pass it off, just not knowing exactly where it would end up going.

And I bet if you research carefully, you'll find that Folio's US distribution centre is at Roswell.

It has been my fear that some of the ongoing complaints about Folio Society's "duplicity" might breed a attitude of suspicion on the part of many of the followers of this forum, and this thread is tending to justify that fear.

As RMMee pointed out "No Quality Control process is going to check 100% of output, unless it is for a life-critical product, and even then it is not the norm." The Challenger Space Shuttle and the Thresher nuclear submarine, billion dollar plus products with human lives riding on their performance, were lost because of defective parts. This caused a Zero Defect mandate, but still defective parts continue to show up--and will as long as imperfect human beings and non-thinking machines will make products.

There were probably several thousand copies of The Man in the Iron Mask printed. It's not reasonable to think someone would be paid to go through every single copy to inspect it. Or several people, because it would take considerable time to go through each book. I collect Limited Editions Club books, which were produced to some of the highest standards in the business, and were only printed in runs of 1500, and yet I have bought two defective copies over the years--a Tono-Bungay bound with a half dozen blank pages and a copy of The Odyssey with a signature bound out of order. Mistakes will happen, and given the exceptionally generous replacement policy of the Folio Society, I think to accuse them of duplicity is unwarranted and, as RMMee says, unfair.

I just want to chime in with a reminder that not only has weather been slowing mail, but international packages shipped via air are being held up due to heightened Homeland Security regulations. After those mail bombs destined for the US were found on planes in the UK last fall, they have subjected all packages to greater scrutiny.

I just placed an order with Book Depository on Friday and they actually have a notice up on their order form explaining that delivery times to the US are extended due to this ongoing situation.

I live in the UK, but just this week had an email from a magazine I subscribe to advising that they are still experiencing delays following the pre-Christmas weather!

>13 Django6924:
Hear, hear.

> 10
As for 'serious accusations'/ 'accusations', I read general advice about book clubs and book faults in general and nothing specific about the FS.
One could certainly read it that way. In the context, I read it, and still read it, as applying to the FS. It may not have been intended that way, but that's the way it reads to me, and that view is supported by further comments in post 4.

>17 Willoyd:

I think it is hard not to see accusations directed at the Folio Society when the poster is specifically discussing the FS Man in the Iron Mask and states

"I hardly think that if quality control measures were in place that they would not have known that at least a few copies, - or even just one copy - of The Man in the Iron Mask had been bound upside down. I do suspect mine is not unique in that aspect. My having received such a copy within a shrink-wrapped slipcase testifies to one or the other of the following:

Quality control measures are slipshod at best or
They knew and attempted to pass off a defective copy."

Again, without attempting to check every single book, how would they have known? And had they known and attempted to pass it off, then why would they go to their own extra expense and replace any copy a member complains about with no questions asked?

I don't think anyone would assume such were the case unless there was an ingrained suspicion that the company is acting in bad faith.

Perhaps I'm being Pollyannish, but from my own 20+ years as a subscriber, having purchased close to 400 books, I have had no reason to suspect that--just the contrary. I suppose that statement will brand me as a FS apologist.

I think FS is not to blame in this case. Problems happen, quality control cannot be perfect. Not to mention that their no questions replacements actually leaves them open to loss since they don't confirm damage/production flaws in products before sending replacements.

>18 Django6924: I have had no reason to suspect that--just the contrary. I suppose that statement will brand me as a FS apologist

I have only been with FS for just over a year, and have had a couple of causes for complaint in that time. But I wholeheartedly agree with you Django - if that also makes me an "apologist" then so be it!

>17 Willoyd:

Thanks for the answer. I suppose you could choose to read message 2 both ways. I still think it was someone showing an interest in the comments from message 1 by praising the returns policy of the FS and offering advice on faulty products.

Message 4 expanded on this and very carefully highlighted the word 'possibly' before making further comments.

>13 Django6924: & 18

I have also subscribed to the FS for around 30 years and have been happy to buy 100's of books from them. I have received a small number of faulty books over that time - some I have kept and some of them have been replaced. I think they have the best policy of dealing with faulty products of any company I have dealt with.

I do not believe that they would send faulty books to a customer on purpose under any circumstances.

I also find it hard to believe that 'some of the ongoing complaints about the Folio Society's "duplicity" might breed an attitude of suspicion on the part of many of the followers of this forum'.

I have only been a participant in this forum for the last 8 months. During that time there have been vigorous discussions on FS pricing policy, FS product descriptions and FS Marketing in general. There have been many more posts and discussions on FS books and the FS in general from a purely positive point-of-view. I have found all of the discussions interesting (including those I have disagreed with) and have found this forum to be one of the most stimulating on LibraryThing with some of the most informed and engaging contributors.

It had never crossed my mind that some of the more challenging comments could jaundice the view of members of this forum who can make their own minds up about the FS in relation to the experience they have had dealing in with them as a company and owning their books.

I hope that the majority of the comments about the FS are positive and light hearted, but in a forum of this nature the views and experiences of people will differ (and sometimes clash - though hopefully not too often). I will always make my own mind up about what I read and I think that is what most people do. I like to think that the influence of this forum is a positive one and people who have admired the FS and their books over the years are glad to find a place where they can share that enjoyment - that is certainly how I feel. Learning more about the FS from some fantastic contributors is an added bonus. Learning about peoples opinions and experiences (good and bad) is also a bonus.

>21 celtic:

I hope you're right--I must say, though, that there have been more complaints of the nature of "Folio Society is taking advantage of us" in the past few months than I remember in the previous four years. I can't say that I would have ever even thought of accusing them of trying to pawn off defective books on their members in the past.

18. I've only been with FS since late 2008; however most every shipment to me has arrived damaged to one degree or another. My very first shipment back in '08 was fine and, I vaguely remember one shipment last year that did not contain slipcases that had been bashed on the corners and books with bent cover corners. Each of the other shipments I've received have had some variable degree of damage. I'm certain most if not all of the bashed condition of my books is shipping damage, and this is mainly due to insufficient packing materials being used - clearly the fault of the FS, probably due to an attempt at cost cutting. They barely used any bubblewrap and no other packing materials to protect this most recent order.

I am equally sure the FS would not wish to replace 70 to 80% of the books I've purchased from them due to minor shipping damages... so I only speak up when the damage exceeds a certain amount as with the slipcase to the Three Musketeers set... Incidentally, two of the three volumes from the set (those that were correctly bound) have the aforesaid bashed cover corners which characterize most of the books I receive from the FS.

As it will be at least Tuesday before I receive the bulk of my order, I can't say anything about what condition those books are in at this time.

So, brand me suspicious if you will... I believe I have plenty of cause to be so.

>22 Django6924:

When I first joined this forum I spent some time time reading through the 'old' posts (and enjoyed every minute of it).

Your point about there being an increase in 'negative' posts over recent months does stand out - in fact there are probably more in recent months than over the previous four years!

>23 1dragones: " Each of the other shipments I've received have had some variable degree of damage. I'm certain most if not all of the bashed condition of my books is shipping damage, and this is mainly due to insufficient packing materials being used - clearly the fault of the FS, probably due to an attempt at cost cutting."

Perhaps you should call them and discuss this situation, which seems to be something of an anomaly. I have noticed no diminution in the quantity of bubblewrap nor increase in shipping damage in the past few years. I received 4 Rainbow Fairy Books--large, heavy tomes--back in December, and they were individually bubble wrapped and an extra layer around the entire bundle. The books were pristine. I can't think of having to request replacements for damaged books more than once in twenty years--and that was some time ago.

Out of curiosity, do your books come in the Royal Mail bags? If they are coming from an outlet in the US, that may be your problem.

>25 Django6924:
I have had an extremely variable experience with shipping quality. There are times things are snug in a very well wrapped box, and there are other times that the books are bouncing around in a box with a piece of bubble wrap or two which are equally mobile. I chalk it up to carelessness myself.

25.>>>Since 2010, yes, my orders do come in boxes which have been placed in Royal Mail bags, and the tags clearly state the packages were all shipped from London. The 2008 orders were not in Royal mail bags or they arrived at my post office in canvas bags which were not delivered to me. I only received the boxes then. I think packing material used is determined by the worker doing the actual packing. Some of my packages have been better packed than others; unfortunately those seem to be the fewest and farthest between. Those with the least damage have been the best packed.

>>I received 4 Rainbow Fairy Books--large, heavy tomes--back in December, and they were individually bubble wrapped and an extra layer around the entire bundle.

That's the way I'd expect FS to pack ALL shipments, but especially those destined for over seas. I can recall only one of my shipments being that well packaged, but at the moment, exactly which one, I have no idea. I have not been keeping notes to that extent, though maybe I should.

>27 1dragones:

Had you tried to call FS and actually talk to them about that? It does happen but if it is every package, I think they will want to know....

>23 1dragones: " Each of the other shipments I've received have had some variable degree of damage.

Same here, and one of the reasons I did not renew. If there is a damaged book from time to time, no problem here. It happens.

But inadequate packing on nearly all orders (and yes, I called them and they said they cannot change it) resulted 90% of the arriving books with dented slipcases and dented corners (mostly the first and the last books in the package).

So now I prefer getting my Folio from either ebay or other sources where I can negotiate the packing with the seller directly. Never had problems since then.

Disclaimer: My two L.E. where packed and protected perfectly!

28. I haven't called about the slovenly packaging, but if J_ipsen (message 29) is correct, and I have no reason to doubt what is said, I would just be wasting my time... and anyhow, I am more likely to send an email than to call them. Oh, not every package sustains damage; merely the vast majority of them... like about 70% or higher.

29. "Disclaimer: My two L.E. where packed and protected perfectly!"

At the price they charge for LEs, I'd be rather upset if those books weren't well protected and pristine upon arrival.

I do rather expect some shipping damage from time-to-time, but almost every order is getting to be no, not getting to be, it IS ridiculous...

#23
I've been a member of FS for over ten years now and, like Django, I can only remember one time when I needed something replaced. That was when one of my Jeeves & Wooster sets arrived with one of the books duplicated and of course one of the books was missing. All of my orders up to the last arrival in early November 2010 have always been exceptionally well bubble wrapped--to the point where it seems to take forever to unwrap them. I have three recently placed orders still to come which I hope will be just as well wrapped. I think you should definitely contact FS and tell them about the packing problems. If it is a matter of a careless worker surely they should be told.

As for FS taking advantage by deliberately shipping damaged books, if you think about it their return policy would actually make it quite easy for a customer to take advantage of them. When my set was replaced they never asked for the other set back or even proof of the book's being duplicated. And from reading various post on this forum this seems to be standard procedure for them. How easy it would be for someone to say a book was damaged when it wasn't and receive a second copy for free.

#31 All of my orders up to the last arrival in early November 2010 have always been exceptionally well bubble wrapped--to the point where it seems to take forever to unwrap them.

Strange. I never got more than ONE layer of bubblewrap loosely put around the books... And one layer doesn't protect much with heavy books like Faust or even the smaller Epics of the Middle Ages.

Maybe they treat different regions differently (would like to hear about the packing of books send to Australia) or just the longer you are member, the more layers of bubblewrap are allocated to your orders....

#1> "The Man in the Iron Mask was bound upside down."

This is probably part of the new policy followed by FS in favour of antipodians. Send this volume to LesMis for instance. I'm sure he will appreciate.

More seriously: I also have my renewal shipment split in two. I got the first bag (renewal set) 10 days ago, with the payment slip for all the books (4 books + renewal set). I still hope the second bag will come one day. (I'm waiting till the end of this week before recontacting FS.)

I have had only the odd book damaged in the post. Folio have always replaced damaged books for me with no questions asked. Their customer service is always excellent.

The idea that they deliberately send defective books to new members strains the bounds of credibility.

I think the idea of Folio sending out defective books to newbies to test them is laughable.

However, I'm sure they get a number of returns, and I suspect that many of those returns are redistributed (indiscriminately), many of which will have been handled and noticeably degraded. I've had crumpled corners on books housed in immaculate cases - these must have been returns, since they couldn't have begun life that way, and were not mangled in transit.

Perhaps the gap in Folio's quality control is not at the originating warehouse level, but with recycled returns?

Either way, I'm not too bothered by this, as they're great about replacements.

> 34 I agree on all your points. I also wonder whether some of these unsubstantiated claims border on the libellous. FS staffers are either roaring with laughter at this thread or are very angry and aggrieved at the statements levelled at the probity of the Company.

> 36

I agree with you, Fraxi. Previously we had people posting here complaining about how grumpy some posters were and wondering how the FS would view this forum. I used to dismiss these posts but now I think they were right.

As to the attitude of the FS to this site, a mixture of incredulous hillarity mixed with a lot of frustration, I should think. An attitude which mirrors my own sometimes.

I agree with all your points, QS. I cannot believe that the Folio Society employ people to research the status of various customers in order to target them with defective copies.

If a member receives a damaged book or books, they should contact the FS immediately. I have had a fair number of problems relating to both printing/binding and packaging in around 20 years of continuous membership, but in my experience they will always do everything they can to remedy the situation. I agree it's anoying if problems persist, but if they do, tell them again and go on telling them. They can only appreciate the extent of any problems if all instances are recorded.

>36 fraxi:/37

This thread started of with someone sharing their recent experiences, in a straightforward way, with this forum.

The message had a mixture of praise (the Christmas cards being described as 'gorgeous' etc.) and some issues (voucher/damaged slipcase etc.).

Not an unusual subject for this forum and certainly a relevant one.

This was followed by a few messages that put forward hypothesis in relation to delivery of damaged books.

Some of the possibilties put forward in that discussion appear far-fetched and I doubt anyone would take the suggestion that the FS purposely send out damaged books seriously?

What I find a bit concerning is that following this messages containing words such as "border on the libellous" and "incredulous hilarity"are posted.

People should not be afraid to post their experience and opinion of the FS on this forum.

Hopefully peoples experiences and opinions are overwhemingly positive.

Sometimes they will not be positive and I, for one, am interested in everything to do with the FS.

We will all post something, sometime that other people disagree with. I know I have posted messages that, on reflection, I have regretted.

We all do not have the same point-of-view, experience or knowledge.

I assume that most people, when they post a message, believe in the point they are trying to make and whether we agree with them or not, we should answer with some level of respect.

I've been a member for a few years now and have had three shipments arrive damaged. These were near the beginning. Since then I've seen the quality of the packaging improve, my books arrive with quite a bit of bubble wrap now. As to the returns of the damaged books, FS has always told me to give them to a friend or donate them to a library.

> 39

There was no disrespect in mine or Fraxi's comments. But, frankly, this forum has been poisoned by too many paranoic and unsubstantiated statements over the past 6 months.

>41 Quicksilver66:

I agree that there have been some regrettable posts over the last few months and they seem to be continuing.

41 I agree too QS. I think I have voiced such concerns before

If I had returns , and that's an IF...then I might avoid sending them back to seasoned or "most valued" customers.

Also the FS.. employ a variety of printers. In Great Britain and in the continent. Their general standing in the industry is surely quite high. But surely there are differences between them.

IN rocket science anything but zero mistakes is unacceptable. But in general quality is about fulfilling customer expectations. Their superb customer-service is proof that they know about this.

And even FS members may vary in their expectations.. Some may be really fastidious, on the verge of obsesive, compulsive disorder.:-) And others might be pretty careless about details..

And some people gets paid for saving a buck while retaing customer-loyalty . This is not necessarily bad if it does not lead to a general lowering of standards.

>30 1dragones:, 32
You have certainly been very unlucky. My FS books arrive at school, and it's a standing joke amongst colleagues about how our bubblewrap supplies are kept permanently topped up by the metres of the stuff that emerges from the respective boxes. My last but one parcel was even received with the comment "Oh, goody, more bubblewrap!"

#32
My books are always so well packed that in order to get them out of the box I turn it upside down and slide the box off the books. Then I unwrap what seems like yards and yards of bubblewrap. When you’re anxious to see what books have arrived (I usually have multiple orders floating through the postal system) it can be frustrating. And I can’t remember it ever being otherwise.

#45
I used to give my bubblewrap to a coworker who used it when shipping Christmas and birthday presents. Alas, she no longer works here so now it goes in the garbage (our city doesn’t recycle plastic bags or wrap). Usually I ration it out--a few yards this week, a few yards next week. I’ve even resorted to breaking the bubbles so I can get more of it the bag at a time. And I still keep a box of it in the basement in case I need to ship something.

I used to groan when I saw all that bubblewrap until someone here posted a picture of a box that definitely did not survive the trip but had pristine uncrushed books inside it. Now I accept it as a necessary evil.

My packages always come wrapped like some of the other posters here - each book wrapped in bubble wrap, then the whole pile wrapped again with another sheet or two of the stuff. (And I've only been a member since '08.)

Unlike everyone else, I am saving my bubble wrap. I now have something like three boxes of the stuff in my closet! My reasoning is that I live in an apartment, which I don't plan to be in forever. When I move, I will want bubble wrap for my Folios...so why get rid of what they give me in the first place? It's already cut to fit and it's the nice big bubbles, which give better cushioning than the little bubbles...

I always kept spare bubblewrap for when I was babysitting for my nieces: small children love popping all the bubbles!

#47
Beatlemoon, I'm just the opposite. When I moved into my current house over twenty years ago my sister said I was never to move again. Something about too many books and bookshelves. ;-) And of course now I have two or three times what I had back then. And besides clothes my closets are full of things I moved out of the way to put more bookshelves in. And the basement's rapidly filling up with the "ordinary" books that I've moved so I can buy more FS books. So one box of the stuff is all I can keep.

P.S. My nephew likes the big bubbles because when he steps on them they make wonderfully loud pops and scare our three cats half to death. And he just can't figure out why none of the cats like him. :-)

>49 haniwitch:

Oh yes haniwitch, I do have a bit of dread regarding the day I decide to move. I looked around my apartment not too long ago and thought "Oh my word, my stuff has grown ROOTS!" I have four more bookcases than I did when I moved in! It's going to be bad... Which is probably why I have on my Amazon wish list a book from the American Library Association about how to move a library. LOL.

I have never, ever had any problem with FS shipments. They come very well packaged, in sturdy boxes and sometimes in fact with so much bubble wrap that it takes some effort to fish the books out. I believe that some posters have expressed opinions which are unfair to FS.
They have an excellent customer service. Much better than any that I have met in Internet purchases. The only time that I received a book with blurred printing in some pages, it was promptly replaced no questions asked.
I love the FS editions (of course some more than others because it would be impossible to be 100% right every single time) and will continue to buy them by renewal, at sales and in the second hand market.

Ooh, I forgot about the boxes, which are so much more useful than what Amazon books ship in. I use them to store the stuff I move into the basement (to give me more room for FS books) or for putting together donations for the Canadian Diabetes Association. That is, after the cats are finished with them. They love it when I get stuff from FS. I swear they know that the Big White Bags hold their beloved boxes.

I am so sorry...I had no intention of waiting so long to respond, but yesterday was an absolute stinker. The additional posts from last night and today will help me to answer, so I thank everybody for their thoughts, especially you, levelheaded celtic, and even you, QS.

If my shipping experiences were like haniwitch's then I wouldn't have warned 1dragones. My experiences over 10 years were more like 1d's and J_ipsen's, with the earlier years to a lesser degree and the last 4 years mindblowing in their regularity. In response I contacted the society by phone and e-mail, and they could only offer polite sympathy and replacement volumes, repeatedly, year after year, without a solution to the problem, an easy fix-tight fit in the carton, flatter cartons, make sure each book is well-wrapped, got moving experience and have family and friends who say 'call olepup, he knows how to pack a truck', told them. So they were polite, but didn't listen, which really isn't polite at all. Happy anticipation of the arrival of folio books became 'Damn, I bet the books will be broken again'. Eventually I just ordered less, especially the heavy sets I had loved.

Though I was happy to join the devotees almost a year ago, happy to talk and listen about books I love, almost immediately a regular perusal of Folio 60 uncovered artificial binding materials described in advertisements as natural materials(Artificial leather, artificial silk) polite emails and phone call not politely returned, next the worldwide pricing differential, next non folio editions sold by folio, shrinkwrapped editions- most of mine were not...and the hits just keep on comin'.

So my education into 'LET THE BUYER BEWARE' has not resulted in paranoid delusions-that is hilarious- but in sensible questions when red flags are raised when a newer member like 1dragones mentions regular damage. Now even the esteemed leonb suspects that new purchases may include returns. I remember some nonshrinkwrapped nonsale purchases with loose boards- I ordered and paid for new books at full price and received previously shipped, previously handled books which were sold as new books. BIG savings for folio, the value of a book was 0 and became let's say 60, let's times by 1000, yeah, big.

So yes, possible to target new members, possible to get them young and indoctrinate, possibly not, ... sad to be able to consider the idea at all.

Have edited an inaccurate reference from leonb

52. The usefulness of boxes... well, that depends on what you do with them. I find the Amazon small boxes (1A, 1A3, 1A5, etc.) useful when sending off books I've offered for swap on Bookmooch and/or Paperback Swap. These are often ideal for 1, 2 and sometimes 3 hardcover or larger format paperback books, sometimes for shipments of multiple mass market paperbacks. I would never offer an FS edition on one of those sites, but have offered commonly available books and will continue to do so when I have finished and no longer need such books.

I do use larger boxes sometimes for storage of items, including regular books that I won't need to reference for some longer interval of time; but even with all that, I try to keep 1 or 2 of the size boxes I use most... however, I usually have no choice but to discard the majority of boxes and bubblewrap; there isn't space in my tiny apartment to store those things until/unless I should need them.

36.>>>>>

I do hope the FS staffers are reading this thread. They need to know that at least one person working in their warehouse needs to be trained on how to wrap and pack books to prevent damage. I suspect probably more than one person needs such training. If the business were mine, I'd put all warehouse packers through a training session to insure that everyone knows how to pack properly, and insist that they all follow some minimum guidelines.

As J_ipsen pointed out, the single sheet of bubble wrap surrounding a heavy set of three books is inadequate protection for such a set as the Three Musketeers. Since these three books were slipcased together (one slipcase for the entire set, as opposed to one slipcase per book) I didn't expect each book to be wrapped individually, but I did expect more than a single layer of bubble wrap... no less than three or four layers, probably more like 6 layers, and covering all edges... and yes, if wrapped like that, FS would probably have needed to use a larger box to ship the set... but oh well...

" Now even the esteemed leonb opines that new purchases include returns, definitely used/not new and possibly degraded sold as new. I remember some nonshrinkwrapped nonsale purchases with loose boards- I ordered and paid for new books at full price and received previously shipped, previously handled books which were sold as new books. BIG savings for folio, the value of a book was 0 and became let's say 60, let's times by 1000, yeah, big."

I think you must be unhappy about the artificial materials issue, and are letting your unhappiness spill over into your general opinion of the Society's conduct; I can't think otherwise why you would suggest--including leonb as an authority--that the Folio Society sends out knowingly returned and defective books to members as new books.

I think that many of the previous posters who have, like myself, had very different experiences, would probably agree with me that there must be some different explanation.

This has been discussed before .

No habla!

Language independent link.

And surely they discriminate according to relative fastidiousness as well as according to your geographical area...:-o

#59> Maybe. Perhaps there are different people responsible for shipping to different regions?

If Canadians and USians say that their books are smothered in bubblewrap and people from the China (myself) and Australia get lousy packing they maybe there are different people at work.

That being said, I have nothing against the Folio Society. I would renew any second if they would protect their shippings the same way they protect haniwitches....

What I will not do (even fellow devotees suggest it here) is call them again and again and ask for replacements. I makes me feel bad to call and complain to them after EVERY shipment and it takes away a lot of the joy of getting the books.

I have already 2 damaged copies of Epics of the Middle Ages, Einstein, and other.... I don't need any more.

I think I will wait a year or two and try ordering from them again to see if things have improved.

Just to let you all know:

Folio Society is not only true to form, they are going above and beyond what I had asked them to do.

They are replacing the entire order, not just the Three Musketeers set!

I have taken the liberty of sending replacements of the remaining books in the shipment as well. These, I fear, may have become separated from the rest of your order in the confusion over shipment, and really should have reached you by now.

Andrew Wagstaff
Membership Services Manager
The Folio Society

They are placing the blame for the lateness of my order's arrival on US Homeland Security, which is probably truly where that blame belongs...

Mr. Wagstaff mentioned in his email to me that the replacement books are being sent via Datapost. Not being from the UK, I don't know what that means, as far as shipping goes. I figure it must be a more expensive means of shipment as it is not the usual method used.

>53 olepuppy: & 56

Tongue-in-cheek, no doubt, and amusing to read - I am not, of course, an "authority" in these matters!

What I do know from experience, though, is that crushed books in perfect cases have in the past been sent out. Clearly you can't blame the postman for these. I don't believe that FS deliberately recycles books they know to be degraded - what I'm suggesting is that FS recycles books returned on other grounds which happen (unbeknownst to them) to be substandard. The dedicated quality control of the warehouse is probably more thorough than that of the shop. Re-selling "unused" goods returned, let's say, capriciously, is neither wrong nor unusual, though the risk to the second-comer is naturally greater.

>61 1dragones:

Yes, FS are great when it comes to replacements. I'm sure they're aware of your case from these boards. Love the hammed up Britishness for the US audience - "I have taken the liberty", "I fear", etc.

60.>"If Canadians and USians say that their books are smothered in bubblewrap and people from the China (myself) and Australia get lousy packing they maybe there are different people at work."

Yes, but most of my books have been packed like yours... and I am located in the USA... so there is at least one uncaring or under-educated employee in the warehouse, perhaps more; and who packs the books may not be determined by the destination; it may be determined by when the orders are shippped.

62. I fear you have misunderstood... what you are calling "hammed up Britishness" is a direct copy/paste from the email I received this afternoon.

The only thing in that section which was added by me was a single HTML tag pair (blockquote) and it's closing tag to offset the quoted material which I used above in the appropriate angled brackets.

>56 Django6924: I think you must be unhappy... Django, I signed off on the artificial materials thread months ago, I've mentioned it in a coupla other threads since but I've moved on. As I said above, several negative factors combined, from my personal experiences, keep me involved in 'caveat emptor'. I'm truly glad for you and others whose experiences have been much better than mine and others, and I can see how you might not comprehend my opinion or even doubt my veracity because of your own positive experience.

When I look at the timing of artificial materials burgeoning usage 2004-6-?, Pricing increases 2007-?,shipping problems 2006-9 I am concerned about the coincidence of the timing and wonder what other changes may have been made by Folio marketing.

Is it economically feasible to ship one-offs, what with the shipping charges and returns? Say 10 upside down Iron Masks at $70 are sent to America
and 5 are returned, so original worth of one-offs=0,
shipping for 10 plus 5 replacements at 4.95=$75, 5 sold =$350American marked up from the UK/ROW price. It looks like the sale of 2/10 = profit, tho my numbers may be inaccurate. The inestimable value is the good will accomplished by happily and promptly replacing books at no charge.

>62 leonb: Sorry that I presented your statement incorrectly, have edited, your statements did trigger my own memories, so thanks, o great one:)

> 61 Good for you 1d.

> 65

Cheer up, Olepuppy.

Remember when I asked for you in the Members Room last year about the artificial leather situation. They gave a pretty convincing reply that had the ring of truth about it.

The longer a parcel has to travel the more likelyhood there is of damage - particularly with security checks. Hence members in North America and Australia are more likely to get damaged books than those of us in the UK. But it seems that without exception Folio have replaced damaged books.

As for the packing, this is done at Folio's warehouse which, I think, is in or near Warminster in Somerset. It is apparently staffed mainly by Eastern European workers - I am just repeating what I have been told, read into that what you want. I get the impression that London does not have much control over what goes on down there.

>64 1dragones:

I fear you have misunderstood, 1dragones - I wasn't suggesting you'd doctored the email - but that Andrew Wagstaff (great name) himself was hamming things up for foreign consumption.

66.> "The longer a parcel has to travel the more likelyhood there is of damage - particularly with security checks. Hence members in North America and Australia are more likely to get damaged books than those of us in the UK. But it seems that without exception Folio have replaced damaged books."

While that is no doubt true, it is also true that well packaged books sustain less damage than books that are shoddily packed. In message 25, Django6924 describes a well packed shipment. Unfortunately most of the shipments to me have not been that well packed. :(

67.> Ah, well that might be true... I don't have a close acquaintance with the gentleman. Then again, I do know several people from the UK - via internet, naturally - and they tend to "speak" a bit different than those of us born in the USA.

Looking at previous posts, the difference between 'loosley' packed and 'tightly' packed parcels is consistently made.

Wherever in the world a parcel has come from, the only time I have had transit damage has been when the package has been 'loosely' packed.

It would seem that the secret is to simply make sure that there is enough padding (bubblwrap etc.) around the book and then to ensure that it is tightly wrapped in whatever the outer material is.

If there is enough padding and the book(s) can't move, I would assume that they could only get damaged if the outer wrapping does.

My latest parcel was tightly wrapped as mentioned above, with several layers of bubble wrap around the individually bubble-wrapped books. In the parcel was the 6-volume Mapp and Lucia set, shrink-wrapped. But somehow, the bottom-right back corner of the slipcase had been bashed, so deeply that it also bent the corner of the last book in the set - but I can live with that so didn't complain. By the time I discovered the damage, I had thrown away the box, so don't know whether it occurred in transit or before the books were packed. I can well imagine that when the books are lying around the warehouse on pallets, the top ones could easily get knocked on outer corners.

>71 overthemoon:

If a book(s) has been wrapped in bubble wrap and tightly packed I would assume that the condition you recieved them in was the condition they were in when packaged, unless the box was obviously damaged.

One possibility is that the big 6-volume set 'slipped' during the packaging process which must happen from time-to-time.

I've had a couple that have slightly bashed slipcase corners (not the books-thankfully) and decided to keep them. In one sense the slipcase has done it's job.

When I joined FS in 2002 all my orders were shipped from the U.S. warehouse in Holmes, PA. In 2007 and early 2008 I started to receive damaged and open shipping boxes, with books damaged or missing. I wrote FS two letters in May of 2008, one at the beginning about both poor packaging and asked for a replacement of a book with grease inside it and a second about the overall poor packaging/shipping at the end of May.

After the letters I don’t recall my next several orders shipped from the U.S. warehouse having damaged shipping boxes or poor packaging. Still, beginning in October of 2008 FS made a change and since then my orders have been shipped from the U.K. All my orders since have been well packed and most have arrived without any damaged books. Of the remaining shipments, they had slightly damaged slipcases, one or two a single book and two others heavier boxed sets. I have not requested replacements for them, as the books themselves have been undamaged.

Regarding current shipment times, I placed two orders, one on 23 December and the second on 29 December. Both were shipped on 5 January and I’m still waiting to receive them.

>73 LucasTrask: - I placed an order on Nov. 18th that I still haven't received. I contacted them about it and I think they resent the package as my order was changed from delivered to despatched. We'll see. I also put in a sale order that was sent Jan. 7th. I wonder which will arrive first?

Almost there to isolate the problem...

Now we need to define a proper packaging procedure for those Eastern Europeans folks. :^)

Any ideas?

>69 1dragones: Then again, I do know several people from the UK - via internet, naturally - and they tend to "speak" a bit different than those of us born in the USA.

Well, we would!

>62 leonb: Love the hammed up Britishness for the US audience - "I have taken the liberty", "I fear", etc.

Idrogenes - I'm not sure that this is particulary "hammed up" - just cultured English. They are certainly phrases which I would use to fellow Brits, not something that I would lay on for our American friends!

Do cultured Englishmen really use the phrase ""I have taken the liberty"? If so, my suspicions about the decline in standards are probably true.

More proof: I see the ubiquitous use of "it's" as the possessive of "it." We all have occasional lapses in the course of casual conversation, but this last is becoming more like an epidemic. "It's" can never be a possessive!!!!

#66

It is apparently staffed mainly by Eastern European workers - I am just repeating what I have been told, read into that what you want.

The implication is clear, unworthy of any decent person, and stupid to boot. I wish I had a chance to say that to whoever spoke to you, Quicksilver. By the same token, those of us who have received well-packed shipments from the same facility in the vast majority of cases (100% in mine) might feel those Eastern European workers are doing a very fine job indeed.

For the record, my experience with FS in the past four years is similar to what some others reported above--I received almost 200 books from them, and only the first, introductory shipment, arrived bizarrely unprotected, with four books clattering about in an empty box. It also came from either the US or Canada--and not Folio's Eastern European-infested UK warehouse.

I have received some books with bumped corners on the slipcases, and one item--The Green Fairy Book--came with a slipcase both bumped and slightly torn. However, the books inside were never damaged, and even in the case of the Green Fairy Book I didn't bother to request a replacement, as the slipcase is still functional and the damage invisible until you take the slipcase in your hands. In four years and thousands of dollars worth of orders I requested a replacement only once, for a book with a visible scar on its leather spine.

>66 Quicksilver66:, 78

Actually, it is a fact worth noting, and not because of any prejudice towards Eastern Europeans. Immigrant populations are often very transient populations. Visas expire, people move to join other friends or family that have recently immigrated, they find a better paying job, etc. I once worked for a book distributor; our warehouse was staffed with a large number of recent immigrants and there was quite a bit of turnover for the reasons I've listed.

What makes this relevant to the packing discussion is that it may not be a question of standards or training, but one of expertise built over time. If there is a high turnover among employees, that means the odds of someone new putting together your package rises. Someone new to the process will not pack as well as someone who has been doing the job for a significant amount of time.

#79

Again--if we make the assumption that most packages are packed by "Eastern Europeans", then we also must conclude that the majority of the well-packed shipments (which, as far as I can tell, are the majority of ALL shipments) are packed by "Eastern Europeans". Logic 101. No need for sociological considerations, well meant as I'm sure they are.

We don't know who packed which packages. We don't know who is responsible for the deficient ones, and who for the proper ones. All we know is that Quicksilver was thrown a sop about "Eastern Europeans". I've explained why it is logically unsatisfactory. I hope I don't have to explain why it is also racist and indecent.

>79 beatlemoon:

Good point, beatlemoon. Experience counts for more than one suspects--even in a job as seemingly simple as packing books. I had first-hand experience of this over the New Year's holiday when I had to move my office. My nephew came to help, and though he is a very bright 17 year old--an honors student at the prep school he attends, and a talented musician--it was more time-consuming to try to show him how to pack than if I had just done the job myself. The packaging tape dispenser provided endless entertainment, if you are one of those kind who is amused at watching someone disprove that old saying that a particular device is "foolproof." (I'm not being unkind--he is far from a fool, and he laughs at me when I have to get my nine-year old show me how to turn the TV to Turner Classic Movies.)

I suspect, Quicksilver, the person who told you about the situation revealed more about himself and his own prejudices rather than providing an official Folio Society response. If we all were to address our concerns to the contact on the website, I suspect there would be some changes.

One of the aspects of this forum which will never end fascinating me is the number of rammifications that any single, specific issue can take and be churned about. In this case, I'm with Lola Walser and her pointed and cogents remarks.

Although I don't want to get into personalities, I have to say that I am emphatically NOT with LolaWalser in her remarks, which though perhaps "well-intentioned" are unnecessarily abrasive. One can point out the thoughtlessness of these kind of remarks without calling them "indecent" and "racist."

We are all (well, probably not beatlemoon who tries to come up with a logical solution rather than engaging in namecalling) guilty of making remarks which are thoughtless and potentially painful to others. Is the solution to brand someone who does as subhuman? I think not.

> 83

If someone makes the remark that "Eastern Europeans" are responsible for some defective work without further clarification, I would not only say that the implication was "indecent and racist" but also a clear case of bigotry. Just on the face of it. Lola's main argument had to do with the logical aspects of the statement and I agree with her completely. It is not a question of personalities at all, I'm afraid.

And if someone offers as clarification that these particular workers are, like many immigrants, a less experienced group who are working only temporarily and may not have received the proper training, and is told essentially to mind her own business, that isn't engaging in personalities?

What happened to those old-fashioned concepts of tolerance and patience? Is the only way to educate someone these days with a shotgun? I think one may speak of ethnic slurs, but to use the inflammatory epithets of "indecent" and "racist" is uncalled for in this case.

Look, I'm terribly sorry to appear so thick, but...am I missing something? Is there a heavy anti-Eastern-European sentiment in Britain (or Europe at large)? I'm the granddaughter of Hungarian immigrants, but that statement didn't bother me in the least. Maybe I make the connection between short job tenures (and the impact that will have on a business) and immigrant cultures because of my own experiences growing up and living in an area so heavily populated with immigrants? I've worked, studied, formed friendships with, and just plain lived alongside lovely people from all corners of the globe, but had to say goodbye to many when they moved on (for the reasons mentioned in my original post). My apologies for not being as well educated on international racism as others here.

> 85

Django, please tell me if I'm missing something. I think that this is being blown out of proportion. We start with QS being told that Eastern Europeans are working at the FS warehouse. This is offered as perhaps an explanation for defective packaging. Let's just stop there and not consider ethical, sociological, labour or any other aspects except that we must assume than those very same workers have packed the shipments for other FS members who have not received damaged books. The statement doesn't hold water.

Now, move away from that situation and consider the remark made about a certain group. Beatlemoon wishes to point out some sociological and labor factors. Fine. However, from the implications that the statement has on the affected group, I believe that it is clear that the words imply an indecent, racist attitude. It is a generalization based on bigotry.

There is no abrasiveness intended. No purpose sought to offend anyone, be "inflammatory" or carry a "shotgun" to educate anyone (your words).

Thank you, Antonio. I thought it was clear that I am concerned about drawing conclusions (especially ones as damaging as blanket statements about entire groups of people) on the basis of nothing but speculations. We don't know anything about the turnover in the FS warehouse. We don't how high it is, whom it affects, who is hired, who is fired, and why, how they are trained, how they perform. To recapitulate, about the only "firm" fact, besides the obvious existence of variation in packaging, is Quicksilver's report that the UK warehouse is staffed by a "majority of Eastern Europeans".

As I said--and shall say for the third and last time--assuming it is indeed true that most of the workers who pack Folio's shipments are "Eastern Europeans", then these "Eastern Europeans" deserve the praise for the good as well as the blame for the bad. In reality, we know so little about the actual facts, that we could dream up all kinds of different "models" to explain the variation in packaging. And at the end we still would not know the facts of the matter.

It would be healthy to keep that in mind.

>77 Django6924: Do cultured Englishmen really use the phrase ""I have taken the liberty"?

I would certainly use the phrase in writing, and, whilst I cannot remember saying it in recent years, I would not rule out its use verbally!

Your suspicions abour the decline of standards are undoubtedly correct.

76. Wasn't me who said it was hammed up..., that was leonb in message 62, and I do not necessarily agree with him.

Mr. Wagstaff even apologized for the amount of time it took to answer my email, which he called a "discourteous delay", but which I thought was quite reasonable, considering the weekend. I sent that email on Friday afternoon and he answered on Monday afternoon.

>90 1dragones: Oops, sorry - meant to address it to leonb

> 86

It did not bother me to much and I am half Eastern European (Russian on my mothers side). I saw it as a comment on the transient nature of the staff.

Today, I received the Nobel: A Century of Prize Winners, by Michael Worek which was marked despatched two or three days ago. This came from the FS warehouse in Pennsylvania. It was better packed than most of the books sent to me from the FS in recent years. The sturdy box used is large enough to hold about six books of this size, if they were packed tightly together, but there would not be room for any protective packing on the sides with the books so packed. The single book was placed on end in the box at an angle, and small air pillows were stuffed in the box to hold the book upright, while two small sheets of bubble wrap were used to protect the top and bottom. The book has no obvious defects and no shipping damage.

No problem. :) These things happen easily where there is no automatic ability to address a message to one certain member, and even where the ability to address a message to a specific member exists, it's easy to choose the wrong name.

>87 drasvola:

Well, the point I think you are missing is one of intention. To brush aside some very reasonable explanations why someone made that remark, with "no need for sociological considerations, well meant as I'm sure they are," is rude, and shows a preference for believing the worst about someone.

I don't think anyone blew anything out of proportion except the poster who jumped on the remark about Eastern Europeans (which was hearsay, anyway, and even the hearsayer didn't offer any interpretation of how it was intended) with accusations of indecency and racism, when a simple "I hope that person wasn't officially representing the Folio Society point of view in making what appears to be a ethnic slur" would have sufficed. Of course that language probably isn't dramatic enough to convey one's disapproval to suit some, but I suspect it would have a greater influence on making another person think about what he is saying than to attack him as a bigot.

I hope people will call attention to my faults with a little charity--if they do, I am much more willing to try to correct them. Of course like the poor, our whited sepulchres will always be with us.

PS: To show you how dangerous it can be to take a remark out of context, my "shotgun" allusion was not suggesting that anyone was going to utilize lethal force, but was an allusion to Huckleberry Finn, which I have been reading to my nine-year old. He being very literal, took the statement too much to heart made by the judge (who tried to treat Huck's pap decently by buying him a new suit and having him move in to his own home in the hopes of bringing about his reformation from drunkenness, only to have pap sell the clothes for a jug of forty rod and fall off the roof in a drunken stupor), that "he reckoned a body could reform the old man with a shotgun." Having had alcoholics in my family, who recovered through AA, I firmly believe that real changes can be wrought through understanding and compassion.

RMMee, while Englishmen (I speak as one) do indeed use the phrase, "I have taken the liberty", there's usually a trace of inoffensive irony in it's - woops-a-daisy - its deployment. Self-consciously addressing an American, pedalling an often self-consciously British product, Andrew Wagstaff essentially begs forgiveness for the liberty of sending out the books again (in case the first batch never shows)! In the same email, we've since learnt, he apologized for a "discourteous delay", being a Monday response to a message from Friday - give me a break! Richard Gere to a hooker over breakfast (Pretty Woman): "I took the liberty of ordering everything on the menu" - such far-fetched politesse conveys with great subtelty his fathomless contempt (a deeply cynical film, incidentally). So yes, the expression is current, but not, I would have thought, commercially or altogether innocently.

>86 beatlemoon:

beatlemoon, negative Eastern European sentiment is not really an issue in the UK, and certainly not in London. Generally, they are admired as hard workers, sympathetic to the host culture, in contrast to other ethnic groups (such is the perception).

#92

I saw it as a comment on the transient nature of the staff.

If that was the idea (and I realise neither of us can answer that question definitely), then they ought to have simply said something neutral, along the lines that the majority of workers is transient, and not specify "Eastern European", or anything else pertaining to ethnicity (or race or creed etc.) for that matter.

"That is too bad, sir, but you must understand--the majority of the workers are black."

"I'm so sorry, but the majority of workers are left-handed single mothers with bad acne problems."

"Devastated about your package--if only the majority of packers weren't Algerians."

Anyway, Eastern European, Jamaican, Klingon or Centauri, they've done well by me so far--and so I wish to you all.

>61 1dragones: 1dragones: Glad to hear Folio's response was "not only true to form, {but} above and beyond" what you'd asked of them.

I had a couple of books arrive today; shipped in November by DHL from Edgham, Surrey. One corner of the box was crumpled but the bubble wrapping was so good (as usual) the books where not damaged. As far as I remember I think this is the first box that has arrived damaged and I've had far larger and heavier deliveries arrive with no damage.

As for slip ups like missed placed registers in binding or the book bound upside down . . . The two times I visited the Members' Room I was positively urged to thoroughly inspect the books I was collecting. I'm sure Folio would really like to know about mishaps with printing or binding.

You are lucky in that your orders have been well-protected and have arrived undamaged. I only wish the rest of us could say the same.

I'm certain the email I sent to FS included the information in post #1 here, with the exception of condition notes on the smaller items and arrival date and condition of the Nobel Prize book, which I just edited into post #1 today.

When the remaining items in my order have arrived, I will send another email informing the FS of any extant issues and/or satisfactory condition of the items. I do believe they have the right to know, especially after the extra hassle and expense they've gone to for this order.

>66 Quicksilver66:

Thanks, QS, but I'm fine, really. Yes, I do remember your timely assistance, and for a coupla days last summer I perked up during a rough debate . Ultimately it was not that I doubted the guys in the Members Room, I valued Paul Nash's bibliographical effort more. So, Cheers.

>73 LucasTrask:

Curiouser and curiouser about Holmes, Pa, which is less than 200 miles away. Return address for some cartons was Holmes but most were UK, and I remember in the first years of membership I paid upon receipt of goods and sent payment there. I sure would think a carton could be sent that distance regularly without damage. I did check with our local postal deliveryperson who has been on this route forever, and she said my cartons have been delivered to me as they were received by the local PO.

>1 1dragones:

Hey, 1dragones, I was wondrin' if you had gazed upon the Roman Pisarev illustrations for your Dumas set yet and what your thoughts were.

I have truly enjoyed his illustrations for the Tolstoy stories.

101. > Yes, I did leaf through the volumes and gaze upon the illustrations. I think the quality is on a par with most of the FS publications and that Roman Pisarev's work is especially appropriate for the Dumas set. The excellent quality of most illustrations is at least half the reason I buy FS books. :) When I pick up an FS volume, often the purpose of handling that book at that time is so I can enjoy the art.

In 2010, I read Schindler's Ark, which I purchased from the FS during that winter sale. I took an almost unheard of 9 months to read that book, partly due to having so many books I promised to review, and partly because, every time I came to an illustration, I had to stop and appreciate the art... A normal, unillustrated book the same length as Schindler's Ark would take me about a week to finish, yet I suspect I will never finish reading FS books as quickly as I would their unillustrated counterparts...

> 101

I also like Pisarev's art in the Tolstoy Collected Stories Volumes. His art is what attract me to the Dumas set - but what puts me of is the fact that the 3 volume set is missing 2 volumes from the story cycle.

103.> I'm aware the three volume set is missing some volumes from the story cycle, (thought there were three missing, in fact). However, I am hoping FS will eventually publish those missing volumes as another set, but with matching covers and artwork so the two sets will look as if the volumes belong together, and then the story cycle would be complete.

I chose the Three Musketeers set as my renewal premium because the alternatives were, almost without exception, very unappealing to me.

One more collateral comment, if I may be allowed to tax the forum's patience: F.D. Roosevelt is reported to have greeted a convention of the Daughters of the American Revolution in Washington addressing the ladies as "fellow immigrants." Maybe apocryphal.

IMHO, it's does not have to be bigotry .. just a very thin excuse.. if your choice as a company is using temporary unskilled labour (good for you, you may be giving an oportunity to many people ) but your work procedures should guarantee the result.. There's no way to know if your Big Mac has been cooked by a Paris-trained cook or by someone just off the boat: as far as I know nobody has ever said .. "sorry about the raw burger, our cook is melanesian/australasian/caucasian.....).".If turnover becomes a problem, just pay more and retain staff

PS.. BTW--just changed my username.. spam-thing. I used to be Pepe

>96 leonb:
I believe there is a fair amount of prejudice towards Eastern Europeans within the UK. I've certainly heard a fair amount of it, even coming from immigrants from other places round the globe. (In my old student house, we had been sent both a Bosnian and an Asian (unsure of exact country) worker to paint the bathroom... the Asian worker warned me that the Bosnian worker might steal my 'gold' as they are known to do that. Luckily I didn't have any gold :P). Just that woman that Gordon Brown called a 'bigoted woman' shows an example of attitude, when she asked where 'all those Eastern Europeans were coming from' (a daft question in itself).

Up north anywho, there's a general vague attitude that they are 'stealing the jobs' (usually referring to manual labour jobs).

>108 celtic: etc.

I don't want to get embroiled in a discussion where it is easy to misconstrue peoples comments (see Django's wise and sensible message above), but......

In previous jobs that I have had I employed many people of differing ethnic backgrounds and nationalities. The attitude that you have experienced that people view 'Eastern Europeans' as a group that are 'stealing the jobs' is one I have come across too.

What I find ironic about that is in a country where too many young people seem to want to become an instant Banker, Marketing Director, Pop Star etc. the jobs that 'Eastern Europeans'
were prepared to do were ones that many people in the UK 'turned their noses up at' and felt were 'below them' - so far from 'stealing jobs', in some cases they were the only people applying for them.

Further to this observation, my experience of the majority of 'Eastern Europeans' is that they have been some the most industrious, honest, well-educated and diligent colleagues I have had the privilege to work with.

Oh yes, I wasn't making a comment either way from my own opinion on how anyone from any ethnicity works, as I don't feel I've worked in enough industries to have a well-rounded opinion on the matter.

>109 nadyaduck:

I didn't think you were expressing your opinion at all - your message made it clear that you were making an observation about other peoples opinion (and an accurate one in my experience).

That's one of the downsides of e-mail - it is sometimes so easy to read into a message the opposite of what someone is trying to say.

Hope I didn't give you the wrong impression.

I accept that there is resentment from some quarters about East Europeans "stealing" jobs, but protectionism (while misplaced) is not strictly racist. In fact, since East Europeans are for the most part usurping other immigrants' natural jobs, I would say in most cases the "indignous" Brits (I use the term more widely than the BNP!) are not bothered, even citing the Poles (for example) as a positive influx - as opposed to the mostly Islamic asylum-seeker variety, which is by and large resented by the middle classes.

>110 celtic: Yes I'm sorry, I read your post too quickly (I get overexcited when I join in on internet forums, I'm a natural lurker) & got the wrong message. I reread it after I replied and therefore edited my reply as I'd gone off on a ramble.

>111 leonb: It may be a regional thing, or even just that I've picked up on different vibes than you, but I've noticed that to some extent the Asian communities have somewhat become less offensive to some, & the Eastern Europeans moreso. It may have something to do with how many large communities there are of either nearby, & how long the said communities have been there. I felt that the question of the 'bigoted woman' that Mr Brown made friends with showed the attitudes of many people. I don't mean to argue too much about it but just thought I'd put in the angle that there is a bit of the prejudice going on.

Sorry about the books 1dragones. I've never had packaging problems, but have had one fault in a book that the FS replaced immediately. I guess it's worth them knowing the problems, so they may be able to track down on where shoddiness is happening.

#108
celtic, we have the same people in Canada complaining about immigrants in general stealing jobs that the complainers wouldn't do if you paid them a million dollars. Here in Manitoba though it isn't just the low-paying manual-labour jobs that go begging for workers. We can't seem to hold on to medical professionals (doctors, nurses, lab techs) either.

Actually I kind of admire immigrants who do stick around, especially ones from the warmer countries who when they wake up on days where it's -40C (which it was yesterday with the windchill amd almost as cold without) don't go running back to their never-seen-snow-or-anything-resembling-a-cold-temperature home countries. This goes double for the minister who handled my mother's funeral years ago during one of our coldest Novembers (-30C to -40C) and had just arrived a few months earlier from India and +40C temperatures. Takes a lot of dedication to survive an 80-degree change, especially when it's going down into the hell would be frozen over range.

>113 haniwitch:

-40C! - excuse my ignorance, but I had no idea the temprature could get that low in Canada. I start whinging at about -5C.

Taking your point about they 'don't go running back' - they don't, but admirably, some of them will send most of their money back to look after the family they are estranged from whilst they basically eat, work and sleep and do very little else.

That is a very poignant story about the Minister

>112 nadyaduck:

Could be a regional thing, I suppose. It might be a different interpretation of attitudes, though. For example, with Brown's "bigoted woman" - he certainly reacted as if to prejudice, but actually I found her tone (though a simpleton, of course) less coloured than that - in the same way Euroscepticism doesn't always indicate prejudice, it's possible to relate employment to immigration issues without distaste for foreigners.

Yet again, it may well be a regional thing - London has largely culturally and economically decoupled from the rest of the UK, in racial mix most obviously.

>115 leonb:

"...London has largley culturally and economically decoupled from the rest of the UK..."

Painfully accurate!

#114
Don't forget the -40C was with the windchill thrown in. I think it was only about -30C without the wind. Actually with global warming we've been having fairly mild winters lately averaging -15C to -20C instead of the really cold ones although I do remember a few years back when my hometown, about 250 miles north of here, was the national cold spot when it hit -50C but that hardly ever happens any more. And it's pretty much guaranteed to warm up a couple of weeks from now. We have the Festival du Voyageur in February with lots of outdoor activities and snow/ice sculptures and it never fails that during the ten days of the festival we have our warmest weather to the point where one year the sculptures melted.

"That is a very poignant story about the Minister."
And it gets better. Mom was buried in her hometown. You know your true friends when they drive almost an hour from the church and stand in a lonely country cemetary in the bitter cold to say goodbye. We were surprised at how many people came (most of them were in their sixties at the time) including one of my childhood friends who drove over two hours just to get to the church and then came to the cemetary as well.

>117 haniwitch:

I can understand how that made you feel - thank you for sharing it.

The first part of you're message about the temperatures is 'mind-boggling'. I particularly liked the casual way you say "it was ONLY about -30C"!

#118
My sister and I often joke that you'll never convince a Manitoban that global warming is a bad thing. ;-)

When the UK was snowed under a few weeks ago you may have seen interviews with Canadian travellers who were confused about the airport shutdowns. I remember one person saying if they had shovels they'd clear the runways themselves. That's because the amount of snow that brought the country to a standstill wouldn't even register as a snowstorn in most Canadian cities. My city isn't nicknamed WinterPeg for nothing.

>119 haniwitch:

I know - we can't handle an afternoon's worth of snow in the UK!

You must be be-mused when you watch us coming to a standstill over weather that sounds like quite a nice day in Canada in December.

#120
It does seem weird hearing about whole cities shut down by snow that wouldn't even bring out the snowplows here. We get a lot of news from the US and when it happens in the southern states it's kind of hard to understand until I multiply their snowfall by ten to get a Manitoba equivalent.

I told my sister about your -5C cutoff point and she said that one day when we hit -9C she and a friend wanted to put on their shorts because spring was here.

>121 haniwitch:

-9C - Shorts!!!!!!!!!!

A -9 mine would have to be blue to match the colour of my legs:-)

Another large shipment of FS books has arrived. See first post for notes on condition and packing.

Edited to note, I intend to open the shrink wrap on the Aubrey-Maturin set this evening. At this point, examination of the outside of each slipcase, there looks to be no serious damage to any of the nine volumes... Manufacturing errors, if extant, will be revealed in a later post.

Today saw the arrival of my replacement books. As said previously, they replaced the entire order - well, almost - and included the premiums too! There was no reason to ship a second copy of the Nobel prize book. Everything (listed below) was packed in one large box, very carefully wrapped, and arrived in very pristine condition. I wish all my FS orders were so well packed. Now, to figure out what I'm going to do with the second copies... They may get donated to the school where my sister-in-law teaches art or some of the books might wind up being christmas gifts.

The Three Musketeers 3 volume set - Touchstone leads to first volume only
The Ionian Mission
Treason's Harbour
Robinson Crusoe
Complete World of Greek Mythology (not an FS publication)
Little Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs - (not an FS publication - Free)
The Folio Society Calendar 2011 (Free)
A set of 8 gorgeous Christmas Cards (Free)
Folio Magazine 2010-2011 (Free)