Group Read: The Law and the Lady

Stasia and I are going to read The Law and the Lady by Wilkie Collins.

We're going to use this thread to keep track of our progress and make any comments about the book.

Anyone is welcome to join us if you like.

You're doing this in March? I'd love to join in, if that's okay.

Yep, I think we're starting March 1st. You are certainly welcome to join! :)

Thank you! I have a copy (the Penguin edition) on branch transfer at my library, so I should get it on Tuesday.

This is great, guys - I'm looking forward to it!

I'd love to join, too. Wilkie Collins is one of my favorite authors. I've got a free version downloaded on my Sony eReader so I'm all set.

Sounds interesting. I just downloaded the free Kindle version.

Wow, this is great! It's good to see more interest in Wilkie Collins. :) I've only read 3 of his books, but I've loved every one.

I guess we'll have to come up with a good reading schedule. I was hoping to start and complete the entire book in the month of March (I have another planned read in April), so we'd have to finish in about 4 weeks. Is that okay for everyone? Thoughts please!

I'm also reading Pride and Prejudice in March but I think I can handle both of these books. ;)

I think there's 50 chapters in this book so to finish in a month we'd have to read 13 chapters a week, approx.

That plan sounds good to me!

I've survived Armadale - I can survive anything. :)

In my library, Wilkie Collins runs second to Anthony Trollope in "proportion of books owned", but I have not read and know nothing about The Law And The Lady. I'm looking forward to going in quite cold.

Aaaand I've just received confirmation from my library that my copy will be available first thing on Tuesday - excellent!

Hmmm...I've never heard of Armadale - is it a tough book to 'survive'?? ;) Really long? Hard to follow?

I think I'm going to LOVE Trollope, but I've only read one book so far...The Warden. One of these days I'll continue with that series.

I love a certain style of old fashioned books (can't really describe it), and Wilkie Collins fits in that style. So does Trollope, I think. And Collins weaves a good mystery.

Collins' longest novel, and featuring (from memory) five different characters called "Allan Armadale". So, yeah. :)

Any help you need with Trollope, you've come to the right place! And I know exactly what you mean about the style.

Okay, this starts tomorrow, March 1st. According to our schedule, the goal is to read chapters 1 through 13, by Monday March 7th.

Enjoy! And feel free to post any comments or impressions your reading inspires. :)

I just took a look at my electronic copy and Part II begins with chapter 15. I think I'll aim for completing chapters 1 through 14 the first week.

Thanks for heading this up, Angela!

That's fine. 13 was only a rough estimate...to finish 50 chapters in 4 weeks.

I have the ebook version without a table of contents, so I don't have access to the 'parts'. If you get a chance, could you post a list of the parts here, and how many chapters each one contains?

There seem to be just 2 parts, with part 2 beginning with chapter 15.

Whoo hoo! Just picked up my copy from the library. I just need to mentally clear the decks by finishing my current non-fiction read, and then I can settle in.

I've read the assigned section for this week - Part One. It was a fast read, faster than I expected, and it was interesting to be swept into an old fashioned world...a world where women were treated very differently than men.

So far I really like the character of Valeria, and the Major (Fitz David?) is quite a hoot!

Valeria represented quite an empowered woman at the time, I imagine. Good for Wilkie Collins for doing that - I'm sure he was popular with intelligent female readers at that time period.

But does anyone else want to smack Eustace???

But does anyone else want to smack Eustace???

Hard and often. :)

I'm a fair way into the novel, so there may be SPOILERS in what I say here, although I'll try to keep my comments oblique.

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I think that is Collins' point, though, that women were culturally perceived as weak and unable to stand up to stresses and distresses; and that they were, in effect, encouraged to be so. Keeping yourself distant from "unpleasantness" in any form was often treated as a woman's first duty, hence all the pre-conceptions about what Valeria's reaction should be to her situation, and the horror when she decides to get her hands dirty. The notion that a woman was "tainted" by any contact with reality was one of the major barriers to female advancement - to be "nice" (i.e. marriageable) you had also to be ignorant of the world.

I'm dying to discuss what must have been the inspiration for this novel, but as others probably aren't up to the same point I am, I'll shut up now. :) (It may discuss the novel's background in the introduction, but I made a point of not reading it.)

I've finished Part One. So far it's made me think of all those Victoria Holt novels I read as a teenager. Young, naive woman falls in love and marries man, only to discover he's hiding a secret. The difference here seems to be that Valeria doesn't believe her husband is capable of doing what he is suspected to have done, while Victoria Holt's heroines usually were afraid that their husbands had done something terrible, and that their own lives might be in danger.

I agree that the Major is a hoot, and I also got a kick out of his "protege", the aspiring singer. I think the scene between the two women is my favorite up to this point in the book.

Okay, so we're ready to begin week 2 of our reading!

In order to stay on schedule to finish in a month, by the end of this week we should be half finished with the book, or approximately 25 chapters.

Happy reading, everyone! Feel free to post any comments or thoughts here on your reading for the first half of the book. :)

I'm pretty deep into the book myself now, too.

Once we meet the character of Dexter, I found myself mesmerized and it was hard to stop reading. Dexter literally LEAPS off the page - he's an exhausting character, but an interesting one.

Valeria remains a delightful character, imho, but Eustace still bothers me. He seems to be too concerned about being 'honorable'...I mean, it's a good quality but he carries it too far for me to like him very much. Maybe that will change.

I keep seeing parallels in this book to Jane Eyre. It's got a little of that gothic feel. Mysterious. Secretive. Handicapped, slightly mad person. Character who runs away. Courageous female lead.

Of course, there's an element of humor here that JE doesn't have. But I love JE and I love old fashioned mysteries like this one, and I'm very glad this group read gave me the opportunity to try this for the first time.

One more thought. I keep thinking that it was a little too easy for the guilty person to be 'discovered'...so I've been waiting for a plot twist. I'm wondering if the real murderer will be someone unexpected.

Or maybe not, because this was one of the earliest murder mysteries. Either way, I'm intrigued.

Okay, I've finished reading this now, but I'll keep my comments on a leash for the benefit of others. :)

Two general things strike me about this novel. One is the tension between its declarations of "proper" wifely behaviour and how Valeria actually behaves. We see this quite a lot in Collins' novels - his understanding and, I think, appreciation of the gap between the dictates of social convention and how women really thought and felt. Valeria's protestations and self-condemnations get less and less convincing the further we go along. My concern for this marriage isn't The Terrible Secret: it's how Eustace will cope with the knowledge that his wife is much smarter and stronger-minded than he is.

The other thing I'm interested in is the use of Eustace's diary. I'm interested generally in the phenomenon of "the diary novel" in the 19th century, and the use of the diary to say things that otherwise couldn't be said, via these supposedly "private" writings. Collins uses this device several times in his novels, for example Marian's diary in The Woman In White. It's particularly interesting here because it's a rare example of a man's diary, and a man's unguarded personal writing, being the pivot.

I have about a hundred pages to go. I was trying to reign myself in, but once I get started on this novel it's hard for me to stop reading. I will probably finish this soon because I really want to know how it ends!

Thanks for your thoughts. I was going to comment on them but since I don't know the ending I decided to wait until I finish too. :) I did think it was unusual to see inside a man's diary - when it was first mentioned I thought it must have been the diary of his wife. (Oh, and I agree that Eustace is 'unworthy' of his wife. I think everyone in the novel feels that way too!)

I was trying to stick to the reading schedule and stuck to 15 chapters last week even though I wanted to keep reading. Since everyone else seems to be plowing right ahead, I think I'll go ahead and read to my heart's content! I'm really enjoying this one!

Okay...I have to apologize to the other readers in our group read. I wanted to read this over the entire month of March. Well...once I got into it, I couldn't stop myself, and I finished already! It was just that good. :)

Here's my review. I tried not to include any spoilers:

Valeria meets Eustace, a man who seems to have few friends and lots of secrets. They fall passionately in love and are soon married. On their honeymoon Valeria finds out that Eustace married her under an assumed name...and that he was never acquitted of the murder of his first wife. Eustace immediately leaves her to protect her from his shame and disgrace.

Her happiness crumbles, but she steadfastly believes in his innocence. She makes it her life's goal to prove he did NOT murder his wife, to clear his name. But if he didn't murder his wife, then who did? Women were not supposed to investigate these matters in those days, so she faces lots of opposition, even from her friends.

Valeria is a wonderful, strong female lead and the reader can't help but cheer her on in her battles. Along her journey she meets some eccentric characters that brighten the novel, such as Major Fitz-David - a 'major' flirt, and the brilliant, eccentric disabled man named Dexter.

I loved this book. After Part One I could NOT put it down...I needed to find out how it ended.

It's hard to say anything bad about this book. The only negative to me was reading the views of society at the time. Women and disabled people were not treated with the respect they deserved, and it bothers me to read that. However, Valeria fights against those stereotypes and I greatly enjoyed her small victories.

This book has a little of everything...mystery, suspense, insanity, secret diaries, romance, etc. If you enjoy books like Jane Eyre and The Woman in White, you'll probably love this book too.

25- Lyzard...

I was thinking about what you said...about being concerned about their marriage. Surprisingly, I'm not. I expect Eustace realizes at the end that he's found a real jewel of a woman...much stronger and determined that he is. There's a chance he could be intimidated by this, but if he really loves her, odds are he'll put her up on a pedestal, adoring her instead of being intimidated. If he feels lucky to have won such a prize, he'll do all he can to hold on to her and they should have a good relationship.

At least, that's what I'm telling myself. :) I have seen that happen a few times in real life, anyway.

I'd certainly like to believe that's how it goes, but the harping on Eustace's "morbid sensibilities" doesn't fill me with confidence. :)

True...

Anyway - we can agree that's how it SHOULD work out.

Yes, absolutely! :)

Okay, if anyone is still reading this, this is our 3rd week out of 4 (planned). By the end of this week, you should be on chapter 36 or 37, to finish the book during week 4. :)

Still reading, and I'm on target to finish by the end of the month!

I started to say something about the background to this novel, but stopped for fear of spoilers. Is anyone here participating but not yet up to Valeria's search of the Major's library?

(I am trying to be discreet! :) )

>36 lyzard: I passed that point last week. I'm at least halfway through.

36- I think it's safe to go ahead and post it. If you're not sure, though, you can always post a spoiler warning before your comments.

(I think it may just be the 3 of us in this group read.) Looking forward to your thoughts!

Lori (thornton37814) is also reading this. I know she's completed the first section of the book (ch. 1-14), so she will have read the chapter where Valeria searches the library.

39- Great! Thanks for the update. :) I know Stasia is not able to read along with us right now as planned...but I'm glad the 4 of us have been able to help each other along.

Yes, that's a great shame about Stasia.

Okay - I hope by now this doesn't involve spoilers, but what I wanted to do was just chat a bit about the background to this novel, which draws very heavily upon the Madeleine Smith murder case.

Are others familiar with the story? If not, don't read on!

Briefly, Madeleine Smith was tried for the arsenic poisoning of her lover in the 1850s, and received the infamous ' not proven' verdict. She was the daughter of a very respectable middle-class Scottish family, who had conducted a secret love affair with a man who was either French or of French extraction, and who was, I think, working class. Meanwhile, Madeleine's family produced a very desirable and wealthy suitor for her, and either Madeleine was tiring of her lover or realised she was being offered a great opportunity (or both), but she tried to break off the affair. Her lover then turned to blackmail and threatened to show her letters to her family. Before he could, he died of what was found to be arsenic poisoning. Madeline's letters were found, including some angry ones she'd written towards the end, and she was arrested and tried.

Madeleine was in possession of arsenic, but the defence argued that she was using it as a skin-whitening agent, as here. The jury's excuse for letting her off was that the prosecution was unable to prove that she and her lover had been in actual contact during the lask weeks of his life, but it was fairly clear that it was really a case of the jury not wanting to condemn a pretty young woman from a good family, and particularly not when the victim was a nasty foreigner getting above his station.

What's fascinating to me is the way Wilkie Collins takes every point of the Smith case and inverts it. For one thing, pretty much everyone believed Madeleine *was* guilty, so she was probably extremely grateful for the 'not proven' verdict! And although there was of course a great scandal, Madeleine afterwards lived a fairly normal and quite public life - she married and had children, and gained a reputation as a painter (her husband was an artist), and was regarded more as a minor celebrity than a pariah.

And I wonder if in The Law And The Lady, Collins is not merely outraged by the "pernicious Scottish verdict", but by the fact that, in his view, a murderer was walking around free and happy; and if in Eustace, we have his opinion of how someone in that situation *should* behave?

Thanks for sharing that background information! I'd love to read more about the Smith case at some point.

I wonder what Madeleine Smith thought of Collins's novel?!

I wondered that too!

I should also have mentioned, David Lean made a film about the case in (I think) 1950, just called "Madeleine", with Ann Todd and Andre Morel. It's quite good, but frustrates some people by leaving the verdict open.

It was a funny experience reading the book, because as soon as Mrs Macallen's bad complexion was mentioned, I went, "Ah-HA! Madeleine Smith!" - feeling very smug, you understand :) - but of course that's only a springboard for the rest.

41- Wow, thanks for that background info. I had never heard of Madeleine Smith. I did wonder whether there was any case like this in real life back in Collins' time.

That does add a whole new depth to the novel. Appreciate that you took the time to share that. :)

I'm somewhere around chapter 34 or 35 now. The info on the Madeleine Smith case is interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I'm glad you found it interesting.

I'm finding myself pondering a subset of novels written about this time that have a gap between what they say and what they do, with respect to their female characters. There was a lot of debate at this time and onwards about changing roles for women and whether or not they represented The End Of Civilisation As We Know It - and of course this was reflected in the novels of the period.

What's interesting to me is that the novels that start out with a declaration from a female character that she is, or intends to be, "advanced", or a "New Woman" (or whatever expression is used), almost invariably end in disaster and a reassertion of traditional values. But on the other hand, there are a clutch of novels that do the opposite, that have the female lead declaring her belief in traditional values and then behaving in a way that contradicts her words. I've begun to keep a suspicious eye out for speeches along those lines.

I would put The Law And The Lady in that category. Valeria seems to be striving throughout to create and preserve a most traditional marriage, but to get to that point she continually defies and acts contrary to the advice of the male authority figures surrounding her - as well as flatly refusing to do what Eustace (who presumably she has promised to obey) demands of her. She keeps apologising and telling us how wrong she is - but she keeps going ahead, too.

Wilkie Collins often did create strong and interesting female characters, but Valeria strikes me as more than usually subversive.

You're right about Valeria, but I liked her in spite of that. I kept feeling that if I was in her place, I probably would have acted similarly.

(Although I don't know if I would have married a man who would tell me nothing about his past. I probably would have tried to pry it out of him first...;)

Oh, I like her! - I just don't believe a lot of what she says.

The question seems to be, how far does Valeria herself believe what she says? Is she fooling herself, or is she deliberately putting a smokescreen between herself and the reader?

I finished this morning. Still need to post review.

I finished the book earlier today. The quality of the writing isn't quite as good as that in his better known novels. I think what will stick with me are the characters, especially Miserrimus Dexter, Major FitzDavid, and the would-be opera singer.

Congratulations to everyone for finishing!

48- I don't know either. It would be interesting if we could have an author interview with Wilkie Collins and ask him these things...

50- You're right. Those are the characters who were the most alive and memorable to me also. Although I liked Valeria for her stubbornness. ;)

If anyone is lurking here and still reading along, we finish the book this week!

>>50 cbl_tn: I agree that the writing here isn't as strong as in some of Collins' other novels, which I think is why I immediately latched onto the "bigger picture" aspects of the background and the intention, instead of working through plot and character first. It's sticking with me, though, in the sense that I am still making up my mind about Valeria... :)

I definitely thought the characters were the strength of the novel.

I have now posted a lengthy review of The Law And The Lady over at my blog.

Thanks very much for the opportunity to read this novel - it was a lot of fun!

>54 lyzard: Great review! It was a fun book, wasn't it?!

Thank you! Yes, it was great. I've read a bunch of Wilkie Collins' novels but I knew nothing about this one, and it was exciting to go in quite "cold" and just discover it.

This was a great book and a great group read. Thank you all for helping me read this. :)