War and Peace Group Read 2011 - Vol 2, Part I
Talk 75 Books Challenge for 2011
Join LibraryThing to post.
This topic is currently marked as "dormant"—the last message is more than 90 days old. You can revive it by posting a reply.
2PersephonesLibrary
This part convinced me that Nikolai Rostow isn’t naive, but simply stupid. Why doesn’t he act a little bit more in a considered way as far as Dolochow is concerned? Especially after what has happened to Pierre, he should have been more suspicious! At least he realizes that his behaviour during the talk with his father is really impudent!
Furthermore I think we got to know another important couple: Natascha and Denissow . Of course, Natascha is inconsistent when it comes to her “loves”, but somehow the chemistry is right between the two – it’s definitely better than between Natascha and Boris.
To another character we had to say good-bye: Poor Lisa died while giving birth to her child. I thought of this as a life-and-death-balance, not only because the baby was born, but also because the “assumed-dead” ( or how do you say that in English? ) Andrej resurrected by coming home.
Another thing I noticed is the search for a scapegoat for the defeat in Austerlitz. (Ending of chapter 2) Everything’s blamed except the soldiers and generals. One the one hand it’s somehow true, because military means following orders and therefore the leaders have to be blamed. But on the other hand we saw in the preceding Volume (chapter 16), that one single soldier is enough to panic a whole group. And of course it’s necessary to blame someone, and in this case Kutusow is the scapegoat.
Furthermore I think we got to know another important couple: Natascha and Denissow . Of course, Natascha is inconsistent when it comes to her “loves”, but somehow the chemistry is right between the two – it’s definitely better than between Natascha and Boris.
To another character we had to say good-bye: Poor Lisa died while giving birth to her child. I thought of this as a life-and-death-balance, not only because the baby was born, but also because the “assumed-dead” ( or how do you say that in English? ) Andrej resurrected by coming home.
Another thing I noticed is the search for a scapegoat for the defeat in Austerlitz. (Ending of chapter 2) Everything’s blamed except the soldiers and generals. One the one hand it’s somehow true, because military means following orders and therefore the leaders have to be blamed. But on the other hand we saw in the preceding Volume (chapter 16), that one single soldier is enough to panic a whole group. And of course it’s necessary to blame someone, and in this case Kutusow is the scapegoat.
3Deern
Trying to collect my thoughts on this short part I where so much has happened...
First I want to say that I was disappointed by Lise's sudden death. I would have liked to read more about her, learn something about their background and see her and Andrei interact, because Andrei's treatment of his wife was the only fault he has shown so far.
Nicolai Rostov... I think he is this over-sensitive child, beloved by his parents and all his relatives and overly pampered but with no real (own) self-confidence. He is used to getting affirmations from outside but not from within himself. Those affirmations (and expectations) put much pressure on him and he doesn't really know himself and his abilities well enough. So he daydreams about those situations where he will excel, but then fails most shamefully.
Life has always been too easy for him, success came without effort and everything has always turned out well in the end. And now he gets himself into this dreadful situation and has to admit failure openly. I wonder what will happen to him next, now he has to live with the knowledge of being a disappointment to those he loved and who adored him until this point.
And I wonder if not (unconsciously) he lost all that money in order to finally get rid of that family pressure. To be finally able to show them that he is not so great.
Dolokhov is this kind of vile character I hate in novels. I prefer them not to be all-good or all-bad.
Poor Pierre, to be used so badly by his supposed friend and by his wife. Now she has finally what she (and her father) always wanted - the majority of his money. But Pierre needs a friend - and better soon!
While reading this chapter I was comparing father-son relationships:
Pierre had no real contact with his father and is now rich, but helpless and clueless.
Andrei has this manipulating and strict father and seems to have learned not to show any feelings towards beloved ones (because in the end it becomes obvious that he did love his wife).
Prince Vassily is the scheming type. So far we have not seen too much of his children, but we know that Anatole is unreliable and a good-for-nothing, Helene is cold and manipulating herself and Ippolyte is 'strange'.
Nicolai Rostov seems to be the only son being really beloved by his father, and look what happened to him.
First I want to say that I was disappointed by Lise's sudden death. I would have liked to read more about her, learn something about their background and see her and Andrei interact, because Andrei's treatment of his wife was the only fault he has shown so far.
Nicolai Rostov... I think he is this over-sensitive child, beloved by his parents and all his relatives and overly pampered but with no real (own) self-confidence. He is used to getting affirmations from outside but not from within himself. Those affirmations (and expectations) put much pressure on him and he doesn't really know himself and his abilities well enough. So he daydreams about those situations where he will excel, but then fails most shamefully.
Life has always been too easy for him, success came without effort and everything has always turned out well in the end. And now he gets himself into this dreadful situation and has to admit failure openly. I wonder what will happen to him next, now he has to live with the knowledge of being a disappointment to those he loved and who adored him until this point.
And I wonder if not (unconsciously) he lost all that money in order to finally get rid of that family pressure. To be finally able to show them that he is not so great.
Dolokhov is this kind of vile character I hate in novels. I prefer them not to be all-good or all-bad.
Poor Pierre, to be used so badly by his supposed friend and by his wife. Now she has finally what she (and her father) always wanted - the majority of his money. But Pierre needs a friend - and better soon!
While reading this chapter I was comparing father-son relationships:
Pierre had no real contact with his father and is now rich, but helpless and clueless.
Andrei has this manipulating and strict father and seems to have learned not to show any feelings towards beloved ones (because in the end it becomes obvious that he did love his wife).
Prince Vassily is the scheming type. So far we have not seen too much of his children, but we know that Anatole is unreliable and a good-for-nothing, Helene is cold and manipulating herself and Ippolyte is 'strange'.
Nicolai Rostov seems to be the only son being really beloved by his father, and look what happened to him.
4Deern
New thread for Part II: http://www.librarything.com/topic/111035
5kac522
One small observation: how Andrei returns from a savage war-- basically, "from the dead"--but Lise cannot survive childbirth.
Although we know much about Andrei, I don't feel (at this point) that I know much about his true emotions (except at the time he is almost dead). I feel as though I know Nikolai so much better, through all of his faults and worries.
Although we know much about Andrei, I don't feel (at this point) that I know much about his true emotions (except at the time he is almost dead). I feel as though I know Nikolai so much better, through all of his faults and worries.
6Deern
#5: I agree with you. We get a close look at Nikolai's emotions and also at Pierre's at times, but Andrei remains a mystery. There must be 'something' inside him and I hope we will learn more about him later in the book.
I am still disappointed about the way Lise dies. She started as an interesting character in the very first chapter and in the end it seems she was only needed to bring young Nikolai into this world. She seemed to be scared of Andrei's father, I would have liked to see more interaction between those two.
I am still disappointed about the way Lise dies. She started as an interesting character in the very first chapter and in the end it seems she was only needed to bring young Nikolai into this world. She seemed to be scared of Andrei's father, I would have liked to see more interaction between those two.
7JanetinLondon
Here are some thoughts. I wrote this before reading everyone else's posts, and I see that some of you have already made similar points, but I'm too lazy to edit mine!
I liked this section, especially the Moscow scenes – the dinner, the duel, the card game. Some characters have really been developed:
- Poor Pierre, trapped in a loveless marriage (okay it’s his own fault, but still), possibly being cheated on (is Helene lying when she says not?), too civilian to hang out with the officers, too rich to hang out with the younger set, too young to hang out with the rich patriarchs. Can it really be, though, that someone like him had never fired a gun before? I hope he will be happier when he gets to Petersburg.
- Dolohov is now clearly confirmed as a bad guy, a “cad”. He’s either having an affair with Helene or glad to let everyone think he is, proposing to Sonya (well, maybe he really loves her, but I doubt it), getting his revenge by beating Rostov so badly at cards (surely he is cheating, as it doesn’t sound like a game requiring much skill). I didn’t like him from the start!
- Natasha is being set up as a major character later, and Tolstoy really likes her. She’s smart, intuitive, charming, pretty, etc. Will she wind up with Denisov? What about her childhood love for Boris? (and where is Boris? How come he didn’t get leave when the others did?)
- I’m still confused by Anna Mihalovna. Why does she go around telling
everyone that Dolohov and Helene are having an affair? Does it help her stay in good with anyone? Does it help Boris? Or is she just a busybody, helping Tolstoy with the plot?
I didn’t like the Bolkonsky section so much – it seemed very melodramatic. Andrei is dead, let’s not tell Lisa, everyone rushing around looking worried during the childbirth (I know it was a very dangerous thing in those days, but still), a coach arrives – is it the doctor, no, it’s Andrei, not dead after all, and just in time to tell her he loves her before she dies. I couldn’t feel sad about her death, because I felt like I knew nothing about her. In fact, I thought her whole existence in the book was only to provide a son for Andrei – oh no, not another Nikolai! Now I guess we’ll never find out why they married, and why Andrei seemed to dislike her so much at the beginning of the book.
One other thing I want to mention is the language. Generally I have been ignoring it, reading for character and plot. But one sentence jumped right off the page and made me think about language, and about translation. It’s so full of multiple alliteration that it can’t be accidental. My question is whether Tolstoy did this, or the translator (I am reading Rosemary Edmonds’), and I am wondering how other translators rendered this sentence. Here it is -it’s in section 8, about two-thirds of the way through (and by the way, isn’t it so appropriate given that we are reading it now):
“It was one of those March nights when winter seems determined to resume its sway and lets loose a last desperate onslaught of howling winds and squalls of snow.”
Nathalie, or anyone else reading other translations, would you mind having a look at yours? I think it would be interesting to compare.
I liked this section, especially the Moscow scenes – the dinner, the duel, the card game. Some characters have really been developed:
- Poor Pierre, trapped in a loveless marriage (okay it’s his own fault, but still), possibly being cheated on (is Helene lying when she says not?), too civilian to hang out with the officers, too rich to hang out with the younger set, too young to hang out with the rich patriarchs. Can it really be, though, that someone like him had never fired a gun before? I hope he will be happier when he gets to Petersburg.
- Dolohov is now clearly confirmed as a bad guy, a “cad”. He’s either having an affair with Helene or glad to let everyone think he is, proposing to Sonya (well, maybe he really loves her, but I doubt it), getting his revenge by beating Rostov so badly at cards (surely he is cheating, as it doesn’t sound like a game requiring much skill). I didn’t like him from the start!
- Natasha is being set up as a major character later, and Tolstoy really likes her. She’s smart, intuitive, charming, pretty, etc. Will she wind up with Denisov? What about her childhood love for Boris? (and where is Boris? How come he didn’t get leave when the others did?)
- I’m still confused by Anna Mihalovna. Why does she go around telling
everyone that Dolohov and Helene are having an affair? Does it help her stay in good with anyone? Does it help Boris? Or is she just a busybody, helping Tolstoy with the plot?
I didn’t like the Bolkonsky section so much – it seemed very melodramatic. Andrei is dead, let’s not tell Lisa, everyone rushing around looking worried during the childbirth (I know it was a very dangerous thing in those days, but still), a coach arrives – is it the doctor, no, it’s Andrei, not dead after all, and just in time to tell her he loves her before she dies. I couldn’t feel sad about her death, because I felt like I knew nothing about her. In fact, I thought her whole existence in the book was only to provide a son for Andrei – oh no, not another Nikolai! Now I guess we’ll never find out why they married, and why Andrei seemed to dislike her so much at the beginning of the book.
One other thing I want to mention is the language. Generally I have been ignoring it, reading for character and plot. But one sentence jumped right off the page and made me think about language, and about translation. It’s so full of multiple alliteration that it can’t be accidental. My question is whether Tolstoy did this, or the translator (I am reading Rosemary Edmonds’), and I am wondering how other translators rendered this sentence. Here it is -it’s in section 8, about two-thirds of the way through (and by the way, isn’t it so appropriate given that we are reading it now):
“It was one of those March nights when winter seems determined to resume its sway and lets loose a last desperate onslaught of howling winds and squalls of snow.”
Nathalie, or anyone else reading other translations, would you mind having a look at yours? I think it would be interesting to compare.
8JanetinLondon
#3 - Maybe Dolohov isn't ALL bad - the book does say he loves his mother :)
Also, interesting thoughts about fathers/sons. I think Rostov's better relationship will stand him in good stead - I am hoping he will be okay, and grow up (he's still only 20 or 21) well.
#5 - I think this is an interesting theme, which we have seen a couple of times already - "peace" is more dangerous than "war" in some ways - not only childbirth, but manipulation (into marriage, for example), being cheated (at cards for example), basically being trapped by "expectations".
Also, interesting thoughts about fathers/sons. I think Rostov's better relationship will stand him in good stead - I am hoping he will be okay, and grow up (he's still only 20 or 21) well.
#5 - I think this is an interesting theme, which we have seen a couple of times already - "peace" is more dangerous than "war" in some ways - not only childbirth, but manipulation (into marriage, for example), being cheated (at cards for example), basically being trapped by "expectations".
9Deern
#7: nice coincidence - for the first time ever I took that heavy book with me to the office today because I wanted to set up all those new threads and needed the table of contents. So I can answer that question right away: the sentence sounds quite different in my translation (Pevear & Volokhonsky).
"It was one of those March nights when it is as if winter wants to claim its own back and with desperate malice pours out its last snows and storms".
Generally the P&V translation is great (I guess) and easy to read but in this case I like yours much better. :-)
"It was one of those March nights when it is as if winter wants to claim its own back and with desperate malice pours out its last snows and storms".
Generally the P&V translation is great (I guess) and easy to read but in this case I like yours much better. :-)
10JanetinLondon
#9 - Interesting. I will keep my eye on this, to see if Edmonds tries to be poetic more often. I like mine best too :) In general, I wonder if each generation prefers its own contemporary rather than older translations. For me, though, I like slightly old fashioned sounding translations of old books, to keep reminding me that it wasn't written this year! Thanks for checking it.
11cushlareads
I'm back into this section again and am finding it goes faster now that I am getting to know all the characters. I'm still going, so have tried to avert my eyes from some of the things above, but like Janet I found it hard to really feel sad about Lise's death, except for the whole idea that childbirth was such a terribly dangerous thing then. Some of the characters I feel are still quite wooden, and if it weren't for the fact that I'm reading Tolstoy I would be more critical. When they had their duel I nearly got the giggles because it felt so melodramatic.
And Lise was pregnant for well over 9 months. In July at the start of the book, she was already waddling and people knew about her condition. The baby arrived in March. Weird!
Am on about p 350, will try to go faster over the next week or two but have school holidays coming up...
And Lise was pregnant for well over 9 months. In July at the start of the book, she was already waddling and people knew about her condition. The baby arrived in March. Weird!
Am on about p 350, will try to go faster over the next week or two but have school holidays coming up...
12JanetinLondon
Ha, ha, good point about Lise's pregnancy - I hadn't noticed that! Just confirms that Tolstoy never saw her as an important character.
13Rebeki
I really enjoyed this section and flew through it (because of the lack of "war", I suppose).
I, too, am disappointed that we didn't get to find out more about Lise and Andrei, especially as he had begun to show more tender feelings towards her. They seemed an odd match - she a little frivolous for him - but there was nothing to dislike her, I thought. She was no Hélène.
Speaking of which, it's great that Pierre has parted with her, though he seems to have gone a little crazy. I don't blame him for challenging Dolohov to a duel - I find Dolohov a very unpleasant character.
I was again disappointed in Nikolai, for his treatment of Sonya and for his foolishness in the gambling scene. Nathalie, I think your idea of his wanting to escape the pressure of being so admired by his family is a really interesting one.
I love the idea of Natasha and Denisov as a couple, but she's only 15 (I think) and who knows on whom she'll ultimately settle her affections... (Well, I suppose everyone else does, since you've all actually finished the book!)
Sorry, nothing new or particularly deep in the above, but just some of my impressions.
I, too, am disappointed that we didn't get to find out more about Lise and Andrei, especially as he had begun to show more tender feelings towards her. They seemed an odd match - she a little frivolous for him - but there was nothing to dislike her, I thought. She was no Hélène.
Speaking of which, it's great that Pierre has parted with her, though he seems to have gone a little crazy. I don't blame him for challenging Dolohov to a duel - I find Dolohov a very unpleasant character.
I was again disappointed in Nikolai, for his treatment of Sonya and for his foolishness in the gambling scene. Nathalie, I think your idea of his wanting to escape the pressure of being so admired by his family is a really interesting one.
I love the idea of Natasha and Denisov as a couple, but she's only 15 (I think) and who knows on whom she'll ultimately settle her affections... (Well, I suppose everyone else does, since you've all actually finished the book!)
Sorry, nothing new or particularly deep in the above, but just some of my impressions.
14JanetinLondon
Rebecca, you are really motoring now! I agree, Dolohov really isn't a nice guy. And Nikolai really does need to grow up. He reminds me of my own teenagers, constantly pushing the boundaries, even doing things they know aren't right, and they don't really want to do, as they try to work out how to be adults. The fact that these guys have to deal with the constant threat of war makes us forget just how young they are at this point in the story.
15Rebeki
Thanks, Janet! Though it hardly feels like motoring. I now need to read a book for my real-life reading group before I can get moving again with W&P.
Yes, I suspect Nikolai will do a lot of growing up in the pages to come. I already like him better for his horror at the resigned and non-judgemental way his father greets the news of his gambling debts.
Yes, I suspect Nikolai will do a lot of growing up in the pages to come. I already like him better for his horror at the resigned and non-judgemental way his father greets the news of his gambling debts.
