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1richardbsmith
Mark 9:2-9
Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves.
And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no one on earth could bleach them. And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
Then Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." He did not know what to say, for they were terrified.
Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, "This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!" Suddenly when they looked around, they saw no one with them any more, but only Jesus.
As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen, until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves.
And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no one on earth could bleach them. And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
Then Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." He did not know what to say, for they were terrified.
Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, "This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!" Suddenly when they looked around, they saw no one with them any more, but only Jesus.
As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen, until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
2richardbsmith
Collect
O God, who before the passion of your only-begotten Son revealed his glory upon the holy mountain: Grant to us that we, beholding by faith the light of his countenance, may be strengthened to bear our cross, and be changed into his likeness from glory to glory; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.
O God, who before the passion of your only-begotten Son revealed his glory upon the holy mountain: Grant to us that we, beholding by faith the light of his countenance, may be strengthened to bear our cross, and be changed into his likeness from glory to glory; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.
3richardbsmith
How did Peter and the others recognize Elijah and Moses?
How might Peter and the others have understood the command to secrecy "until the son of man had risen from the dead?"
What did they think about the title of son of man? What did they think about someone rising from the dead?
How might Peter and the others have understood the command to secrecy "until the son of man had risen from the dead?"
What did they think about the title of son of man? What did they think about someone rising from the dead?
4vpfluke
I can only give an elusive answer to a question to the first question that by participating in the mystical body of Christ there is a broader understanding of the same type that comes from ones dreams when you know something without evidence.
I looked up the Greek for Verse 9 and the grammar of the Greek is a bit different from the various translations. The first part uses a present particple phrase rather than a clause, which focuses one to what Jesus ordered. Except that what Jesus ordered is pretty much in the subjunctive. So, I see the forward reference to the resurrection is not really in the assured factual area, but in another more conditional area. Jesus is hinting at the future, not laying out events, so that the future is fully layed out, but unfolds in a way that we can't always determine. These are just intimations on my part.
I looked up the Greek for Verse 9 and the grammar of the Greek is a bit different from the various translations. The first part uses a present particple phrase rather than a clause, which focuses one to what Jesus ordered. Except that what Jesus ordered is pretty much in the subjunctive. So, I see the forward reference to the resurrection is not really in the assured factual area, but in another more conditional area. Jesus is hinting at the future, not laying out events, so that the future is fully layed out, but unfolds in a way that we can't always determine. These are just intimations on my part.
5richardbsmith
Luke omits the command to silence entirely. I am not sure that the use of the subjunctive in Mk and MT is anything more that a function of the grammatical construction.
It is always interesting to see the changes made in the different versions.
Mark basically continues with that line of questioning though - "what is this rising from the dead?" The text does not provide an answer. It only mentions that they had questions about the meaning.
Verse 11 then suggests that their questioning, about the command to silence and the mysterious reference to the rising fom the dead, eventually leads them to some idea about Messiah.
They move from considering what the rising from the dead means in vs 10, to a question about expectations leading to the messiah in vs 11.
It is a big step, covered so quickly and so subtly in Mark's narrative.
It is always interesting to see the changes made in the different versions.
Mark basically continues with that line of questioning though - "what is this rising from the dead?" The text does not provide an answer. It only mentions that they had questions about the meaning.
Verse 11 then suggests that their questioning, about the command to silence and the mysterious reference to the rising fom the dead, eventually leads them to some idea about Messiah.
They move from considering what the rising from the dead means in vs 10, to a question about expectations leading to the messiah in vs 11.
It is a big step, covered so quickly and so subtly in Mark's narrative.
6richardbsmith
vpfluke
This morning, after taking another look at the passage in Mk and Mt, I think you are right that Mark's phrasing has a sense of uncertainty in it. And that hint of uncertainty is not evident in the RSV translation, probably because it is assumed that Mark did not intend to convey uncertainty, that this is an example of Mark's lesser fluency in Greek.
Comparing to Mt, the degree of uncertainty seems to be lessened. Luke omits that issue entirely.
Mk 9.9
"tell no one what you saw until whenever the son of man may be raised from the dead"
Mt 17.9
"you should tell no one this vision until when the son of man may be raised."
Perhaps Luke decided to omit the reference to the raising of the son of man for related reasons?
This morning, after taking another look at the passage in Mk and Mt, I think you are right that Mark's phrasing has a sense of uncertainty in it. And that hint of uncertainty is not evident in the RSV translation, probably because it is assumed that Mark did not intend to convey uncertainty, that this is an example of Mark's lesser fluency in Greek.
Comparing to Mt, the degree of uncertainty seems to be lessened. Luke omits that issue entirely.
Mk 9.9
"tell no one what you saw until whenever the son of man may be raised from the dead"
Mt 17.9
"you should tell no one this vision until when the son of man may be raised."
Perhaps Luke decided to omit the reference to the raising of the son of man for related reasons?
