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1richardbsmith
John 3:14-21
Jesus said to Nicodemus, "14. Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15. that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
"16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
"17. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
"19. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. 21. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God."
Jesus said to Nicodemus, "14. Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15. that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
"16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
"17. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
"19. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. 21. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God."
2richardbsmith
Collect
Gracious Father, whose blessed Son Jesus Christ came down from heaven to be the true bread which gives life to the world: Evermore give us this bread, that he may live in us, and we in him; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.
Gracious Father, whose blessed Son Jesus Christ came down from heaven to be the true bread which gives life to the world: Evermore give us this bread, that he may live in us, and we in him; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.
3richardbsmith
It is interesting to consider where in this passage to place the quotation marks, where to understand the words of Jesus to end and the words of the evangelist to begin as commentary.
I tend to think that the words of Jesus end at verse 12, with the evangelist starting his commentary at verse 13.
The reading above taken from the RCL page has Jesus saying these verses, and adds the intro phrase of "And Jesus said to Nicodemus" to ver 14. The intro phrase is actually at verse 10 in the text.
And in my interpretation all of this weeks reading is interpretation by the evangelist.
I tend to think that the words of Jesus end at verse 12, with the evangelist starting his commentary at verse 13.
The reading above taken from the RCL page has Jesus saying these verses, and adds the intro phrase of "And Jesus said to Nicodemus" to ver 14. The intro phrase is actually at verse 10 in the text.
And in my interpretation all of this weeks reading is interpretation by the evangelist.
4richardbsmith
Jesus did not come to judge, but to save the world. He who believes in Jesus is not judged, but who does not believe is already judged.
What is this judgement?
Is of the quality or quantity of belief?
What does belief consist of? Does honest doubt, earnest questioning, bring judgement and condemnation?
And what of the judgement? It is described here - the judgement is that men love darkness rather than light?
I have never understoon what way is that statement a judgment, at least in the sense of a penalty or a condemnation?
Do you have to do evil to hate the llght? If you believe, then do you not do evil and therefore love the light, because of you doing what is true?
What is this judgement?
Is of the quality or quantity of belief?
What does belief consist of? Does honest doubt, earnest questioning, bring judgement and condemnation?
And what of the judgement? It is described here - the judgement is that men love darkness rather than light?
I have never understoon what way is that statement a judgment, at least in the sense of a penalty or a condemnation?
Do you have to do evil to hate the llght? If you believe, then do you not do evil and therefore love the light, because of you doing what is true?
5cjbanning
>3 richardbsmith:
What difference do you think it makes whether it is Jesus' words (as reported by the Evangelist) or the Evangelist's words? Do you think their function within the text is different?
The vexed question of what we consider pistis to mean certainly does raise itself here. The late date of this Gospel makes it likely that John is using it in a way which is in dialogue with the way(s) the other NT writers use it, though. As always, I do not understand pistis as applying to propositional belief--that is, to explicit self-identity as Christian, or an explicit belief that Jesus is Lord and Savior, etc.
The last couple of verses strike me as a good description of resistable grace--one has a choice whether to step into the light or not. Of course, a Calvinist would probably also see it as a good description of irresistable grace--whether or not one steps into the light depends on one's fundamental character as already established by the Sovereign God.
What difference do you think it makes whether it is Jesus' words (as reported by the Evangelist) or the Evangelist's words? Do you think their function within the text is different?
The vexed question of what we consider pistis to mean certainly does raise itself here. The late date of this Gospel makes it likely that John is using it in a way which is in dialogue with the way(s) the other NT writers use it, though. As always, I do not understand pistis as applying to propositional belief--that is, to explicit self-identity as Christian, or an explicit belief that Jesus is Lord and Savior, etc.
The last couple of verses strike me as a good description of resistable grace--one has a choice whether to step into the light or not. Of course, a Calvinist would probably also see it as a good description of irresistable grace--whether or not one steps into the light depends on one's fundamental character as already established by the Sovereign God.
6richardbsmith
I do think it changes the story to end Jesus' words at 12, with the remainder being the evangelist's interpretation. For one, at least for me, it makes sense of the third person pronouns. Second, it eases, for me, the difficulties in following the reasoning in Jesus' words, to have a statement followed by the narrators interpretation.
One sentence does not flow logically into the next, one point following the prior point, logically. The verses rather go back over the same point, with each verse bringing additional amplification and illumination.
And the presence of the explanation suggests to me more that the Nicodemus story was received from a source tradition which the evangelist includes in his gospel along with his interpretation of the tradition.
That is how I have worked what I have considered to be difficulties with understanding the passage.
One sentence does not flow logically into the next, one point following the prior point, logically. The verses rather go back over the same point, with each verse bringing additional amplification and illumination.
And the presence of the explanation suggests to me more that the Nicodemus story was received from a source tradition which the evangelist includes in his gospel along with his interpretation of the tradition.
That is how I have worked what I have considered to be difficulties with understanding the passage.
7richardbsmith
The questions I asked and those you asked, I cannot answer. But I would like to discuss through them and the words in the passage and in the larger context.
The translation in the OP introduces judgement in verse 19, apparently out of nowhere. "And this is the judgement" would seem to refer to a previous mention of "judgement." But the translation does not provide a prior reference.
But when the Greek text is read, it is evident that the same word is being translated differently - as "condemn" first and as "judgement" second. So to make sense the English, we need I think to translate the word the same throughout the passage.
We need to pick judement or condemnation as the sense of the useage.
"For God did not sent the son into the world so that he might judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through him.
The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one not believing has been judged already.
...... And this is the judgement: that light has come into the world yet mankind loved rather the darkness than the light."
The translation in the OP introduces judgement in verse 19, apparently out of nowhere. "And this is the judgement" would seem to refer to a previous mention of "judgement." But the translation does not provide a prior reference.
But when the Greek text is read, it is evident that the same word is being translated differently - as "condemn" first and as "judgement" second. So to make sense the English, we need I think to translate the word the same throughout the passage.
We need to pick judement or condemnation as the sense of the useage.
"For God did not sent the son into the world so that he might judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through him.
The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one not believing has been judged already.
...... And this is the judgement: that light has come into the world yet mankind loved rather the darkness than the light."
8richardbsmith
Verses 20 and 21 seem to be further amplification of verse 19, of the fact that humanity does not love the light because our deeds are evil. If we did good then we would have loved the light, but we did not and we do not.
Faith in Jesus allows the believer not to be judged.
Jesus is not the judge, but the salvation. The judgement is the light, which all humanity hates. Jesus has been sent to save from that judgement.
But this raises for me how to read other scriptures that do point to Jesus as judge?
Faith in Jesus allows the believer not to be judged.
Jesus is not the judge, but the salvation. The judgement is the light, which all humanity hates. Jesus has been sent to save from that judgement.
But this raises for me how to read other scriptures that do point to Jesus as judge?
9richardbsmith
Another difference that I tend to make in reading this passage.
I understand the "so" in verse 16 to mean "in this way."
For God in this way loved the world (this way is referring to account of how Moses raised the serpent to save those who looked upon it).
For God in this way loved the world, with the result that he gave his only born son, inorder that those believing in him might not perish."
I understand the "so" in verse 16 to mean "in this way."
For God in this way loved the world (this way is referring to account of how Moses raised the serpent to save those who looked upon it).
For God in this way loved the world, with the result that he gave his only born son, inorder that those believing in him might not perish."
10vpfluke
Thayer thinks that the word "so" in John 3:16 has a sense of astonishment. "So" actually starts the sentence in Greek. "may not perish" is in the subjunctive mood, so that not perishing and having eternal life are not guarantees.
An interesting note is that the word in Greek for judgment (or condemnation) is crisis.
An interesting note is that the word in Greek for judgment (or condemnation) is crisis.
11richardbsmith
For some reason it had not registered with me the relation between "crisis" and KRISIS. Funny how connections sometimes are missed.
And a sense of astonishment is another way that "so" could be understood, differently from the idea of "so much" that is how the passage is generally understood. I had not considered that possibility before.
And a sense of astonishment is another way that "so" could be understood, differently from the idea of "so much" that is how the passage is generally understood. I had not considered that possibility before.
