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1richardbsmith
John 17:6-19
Looking up to heaven, Jesus prayed, "I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything you have given me is from you; for the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
I am asking on their behalf; I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you.
Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and I speak these things in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves.
I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world.
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth."
Looking up to heaven, Jesus prayed, "I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything you have given me is from you; for the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
I am asking on their behalf; I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you.
Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and I speak these things in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves.
I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world.
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth."
2richardbsmith
Collect
O God, the King of glory, you have exalted your only Son Jesus Christ with great triumph to your kingdom in heaven: Do not leave us comfortless, but send us your Holy Spirit to strengthen us, and exalt us to that place where our Savior Christ has gone before; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, in glory everlasting. Amen.
O God, the King of glory, you have exalted your only Son Jesus Christ with great triumph to your kingdom in heaven: Do not leave us comfortless, but send us your Holy Spirit to strengthen us, and exalt us to that place where our Savior Christ has gone before; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, in glory everlasting. Amen.
3richardbsmith
It has always been difficult for me that after the Last Supper in 14.31, and after Jesus announced in 14.31, "Rise, let us go hence," and he then went into a 3 chapter monologue. And then in 18.1 finally rises with the disciples to move across the Kidron Valley.
In this portion of the monologue a couple thoughts come to my mind.
The first is the word "now". It seems to me that now, at that moment, the disciples did not know all that stuff. That suggests to me that "now" refers to the great moment they are about to enter, the time of the crucifixion and more the resurrection.
The second is the underlying theme of separation from the world, that this group is separate. "I am not praying for the world" ; "They are not of the world."
This has always seemed to me to be a distinctly Johannine theme, us against the world.
In this portion of the monologue a couple thoughts come to my mind.
The first is the word "now". It seems to me that now, at that moment, the disciples did not know all that stuff. That suggests to me that "now" refers to the great moment they are about to enter, the time of the crucifixion and more the resurrection.
The second is the underlying theme of separation from the world, that this group is separate. "I am not praying for the world" ; "They are not of the world."
This has always seemed to me to be a distinctly Johannine theme, us against the world.
4ambrithill
The disciples were very weak and defective in knowledge; yet Christ, who knew them better than they knew themselves, passes his word for them that they did believe. --from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the New Testament.
This may also tie in with John 16:29-30,
And perhaps the questioning and rivalry mentioned in Luke 22:23-24 had something to do with Jesus deciding this monologue that begins in John 15 was necessary before they left. Just a thought.
I believe you are correct in the theme of us against the world. Beginning in John 1:10 we see John saying that the world did not know Him.
This may also tie in with John 16:29-30,
And perhaps the questioning and rivalry mentioned in Luke 22:23-24 had something to do with Jesus deciding this monologue that begins in John 15 was necessary before they left. Just a thought.
I believe you are correct in the theme of us against the world. Beginning in John 1:10 we see John saying that the world did not know Him.
5richardbsmith
"I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled."
How do you understand this verse?
Did Judas act in order to fullfil scripture? Which scripture was fulfilled?
Did the fulfilled scripture refer to Judas' betrayal specifically? Did the scripture require that the Messiah be betrayed?
It seems to me that from this perspective in the prayer to the Father that Judas was sacrificed, the one lost so that others might be saved? He is apparently ultimately lost. Jesus, on the other hand, is fully aware that he is leaving this world to which he does not belong and coming to the Father to whom he does belong.
How do you understand this verse?
Did Judas act in order to fullfil scripture? Which scripture was fulfilled?
Did the fulfilled scripture refer to Judas' betrayal specifically? Did the scripture require that the Messiah be betrayed?
It seems to me that from this perspective in the prayer to the Father that Judas was sacrificed, the one lost so that others might be saved? He is apparently ultimately lost. Jesus, on the other hand, is fully aware that he is leaving this world to which he does not belong and coming to the Father to whom he does belong.
6ambrithill
I find that most commentaries believe that the Scripture that was fulfilled is two passages in Psalms.
41:9--Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me.
109:8--Let his days be few, And let another take his office.
The biggest problem I have with this verse is that it has often been used to show double predestination, i.e., Judas had no choice in betraying Jesus. But I must also admit that I do not really know if he had a choice or not, just like I am not sure that Pilate had a choice. What are your thoughts on this?
41:9--Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me.
109:8--Let his days be few, And let another take his office.
The biggest problem I have with this verse is that it has often been used to show double predestination, i.e., Judas had no choice in betraying Jesus. But I must also admit that I do not really know if he had a choice or not, just like I am not sure that Pilate had a choice. What are your thoughts on this?
7richardbsmith
I do not understand the scriptures as historically literal as do you, so my approach is a bit differen. You would be asking me what I think the writer of John intends to convey.
And so I would have a multi layered response.
That said, I am not sure that Judas is lost because there is a specific scripture that needed to be fulfilled that says, "Judas is to be lost." I see no reason that the reference that the scripture would be fulfilled should necessarily point to Judas being lost.
So I take the verse to mean, "When I was with them, I kept them in your name whom you gave me so that scripture would be fulfilled, and I guarded and none of them did I lose except the son of destruction.
At least the clause that scripture might be fulfilled pertains as much to those not lost as to the one lost.
More though I think the fulfillment of scripture points to Jesus keeping those given to him in the Father's name, so that they might carry on the gospel message and thus fulfill scripture.
And so I would have a multi layered response.
That said, I am not sure that Judas is lost because there is a specific scripture that needed to be fulfilled that says, "Judas is to be lost." I see no reason that the reference that the scripture would be fulfilled should necessarily point to Judas being lost.
So I take the verse to mean, "When I was with them, I kept them in your name whom you gave me so that scripture would be fulfilled, and I guarded and none of them did I lose except the son of destruction.
At least the clause that scripture might be fulfilled pertains as much to those not lost as to the one lost.
More though I think the fulfillment of scripture points to Jesus keeping those given to him in the Father's name, so that they might carry on the gospel message and thus fulfill scripture.
8richardbsmith
It is also interesting that the version in the OP has Judas as being destined to be lost. The verse is more plainly translated as son of perdition or destruction. The versions that give the rendering of "destined to be lost" are giving an interpretative translation.
Destined to be lost suggests God's predestination a bit more than might be suggested by "son of perdition or destruction."
Destined to be lost suggests God's predestination a bit more than might be suggested by "son of perdition or destruction."
9richardbsmith
As far as how things worked out, with the crucifixion, with Judas, with Pilate. I do not think they were predestined specifically.
Things were going to work out through our choices, despite of our choices, regardless of our choices.
The working out of God's plan is established. The specifics remain to be accomplished.
Things were going to work out through our choices, despite of our choices, regardless of our choices.
The working out of God's plan is established. The specifics remain to be accomplished.
10ambrithill
I like the thought, "Things were going to work out through our choices, despite of our choices, regardless of our choices." I think that this is many ways shows the greatness of a God who can accomplish His plans through us while allowing us choices. It is actually quite incomprehensible, at least to my brain.
