2013 GROUP READ Dicussion - When Christ and His Saints Slept

This is the discussion thread for When Christ and His Saints Slept.

Looking forward to this!

me also

I'll be joining in as well and should be getting the book from the library soon. I've read her welsh trilogy and The Sunne in Splendour and loved them all.

I started the book already thinking that it will take me a while to get through this tome!

I think I'm going to start today :)

I'm in .. buying for the kindle today. Am a little concerned about a comment on Amazon that the kindle version lacks maps ... wondering how important that will be.

I think I'm also going to get a jump start on this today.

I'm in too! I'll pick up my copy from the library this week. Will fit great in my Historical fiction category!

Yayy. I finished up A Tale of Two Cities which is my final 2012 read. Now I just need to decide whether to start When Christ and His Saints Slept or something for one of the CAT challenges. Looking forward to this though.

Clif my copy has only one map of England and northern France (not that it was France back then) and one family tree. However I'm referring to them both a lot but I could probably get by without them or find similar resources on the web somewhere

I am starring this, not that I will be able to keep up with the reading, but so that I can go back and review the comments as I attempt to catch up to everyone else!

#10: Sandra, I'm really hoping to finish AToTC today, I have less hours than you as it's already 1pm Monday in New Zealand.

Good luck, Kerry! Do you (or did you) have many pages to go? It took me a whole month to read (with some quicker books thrown in) so, even though I liked it, I'm glad to be finally finished it.

Yes, too many left. I read the first 50 pages at the start of the month and then put it down for a couple of weeks so only seriously started a couple of days ago. 130pgs left which is doable if I don't have a glass of wine later on, but then it's also New Year's Eve which only happens once a year!

Have to say I am pleasantly surprised how smoothly this is reading. I was afraid it would be a bit dense, but now I'm feeling that I'll be able to join in for the other Sharon Kay Penman reads.

If anyone wants to know more about the event that happens around page 70 and the aftermath, here's a link:

http://plantagenesta.livejournal.com/56472.html

Obviously, I want to avoid any spoilers, but geesh I didn't know anything about this event.

I will ordere the book from Inter Library Loan and will be joining all of you soon.

Well, I have about 200 pages left to go, so I'll be finishing this up this morning. And it will be my first book of 2013 and a great book at that. I have to say though what a horrible time period to live through. Those poor people!

I will definitely be joining for the rest of the Penman reads :)

Glad to hear you enjoyed it, Tanglewood. I just started this last night. I've got the hardcover and found out it's a monster to take to bed. So far so good, though I wonder why the geneology chart at the beginning shows 'issue' rather than a name while sometimes a person mentioned (like Stephen's brother Will in the prologue) is missing from the chart all together. Anyone know?

I assumed it was because there are no historical records of the childs name. There is record that they had a child but the name has been lost in time for some reason. Maybe because the child died young?

Ah, okay. That makes sense. And I'm beginning to think some children are not on the chart because they are not important to this story.

Yeah I think you are right Sandra. Henry for example had 20+ children yet only a few are listed in this family tree.

Nope, it still doesn't make sense to me after all. There are several characters mentioned in the first chapter that are not on the chart, while nameless issue are included.

>20 sandragon:-24 My guess is that whoever made the chart was more interested in making it look good and listing major characters than in including information. I think most of the names are known, even of children who died young and of Henry I's illegitimate children, and dates (or approximations) are also known, but the only dates are of the reigns. In short, I was disappointed in the chart.

I started the book last night, only a few pages, but so far I like it. I can see, though, that this will be my major January reading.

I am about half why through and enjoying the ride. And I will also be joining in on the rest of Penman group reads later on in the year.

I read this book a couple years ago, so I'm not joining in the group read...but I'll be here for the rest of the Plantagenet books later in the year! I'm enjoying the discussion thus far. I don't remember whether my genealogy chart was terrible, but I hardly ever look at those anyway.

I'll be a bit late to the party... had to submit an interlibrary loan request for this one. (Meanwhile, the library had all subsequent volumes in the series. Odd.)

My understanding of the "issue" issue is that the name of the offspring is either unknown or not relevant.

Just finished the book. I denied myself food for the last 100 pages telling myself 'it won't take long'... phew... what shambles!

I'm about 150 pages in. Things are heating up, war on the rampage. So far, so good.

>17 Tanglewood: Thanks for the link. This is an incident that I had not previously known about.

I'm still less than 100 pages in, but I'm enjoying the book a lot. I'm finding the characterizations of Maud and Stephen fascinating. And I'm finding myself much more sympathetic to Stephen than I ever have been before!

32>> ditto

Spoilerish

#17 - I just got to the blinding and *sheesh* wouldn't it have made more sense to punish Pacy, the oath breaker, rather than his innocent daughters?

end spoilerish

I'm almost at the part where King Henry dies, and wondering how it can all go wrong, considering how close Maude and Stephen are.

>34 sandragon:
Also Spoilerish

I know. And wasn't it enough to blind both of them? Why did their noses need to be snipped off as well?

I'm about two thirds of the way through this book, and I can't help but wonder why the hell the common man/woman, doesn't pick up the nearest pitchfork and shove it through any and all of the bloody nobility. They offer the common man nothing but misery, both sides, burning towns, letting the armies loose on towns to rape, rapine and murder. Gods.

>34 sandragon: & 35 Spoilerish I keep wondering what happened to the girls afterwards. A nunnery, perhaps?

also Spoilerish -- about Chapter 8, page 120 or so

I had been confused about Robert of Gloucester, since I was under the impression that he had been a staunch supporter of Empress Maud. Since Ms Penman seems to be very accurate, I assume that she is correct that Robert initially backed Stephen, then changed sides.

end Spoilerish

One of the things I really appreciate about Ms Penman is that she usually sticks to known facts, rather than trying to "improve" them, and then adds fictional thoughts, emotions, conversations, and everyday activities of the people to explain known actions and allegiances. And I like her reporting of battles and other major events through messengers and conversations rather than pages and pages of detailed battlle scenes.

>36 majkia: Because of the feudal system? I can't think of any significant rebellion of the common people until several centuries later. And although it's under attack at the moment, following the Newtown tragedy, the right to bear arms was written into the US Constitution for the express purpose of enabling the common man to protect himself against the government/nobility/those in power -- a revolutionary concept in the late 18th century.

36 & 37 I understand the sentiment and by the end of the book I was thoroughly fed up with both sides because of that. I think if the common people rebelled they might win the day by pure luck and surprise but they would loose soon after. They didn't have the same weapons and armor, the skills, the numbers to match an army meanwhile nobles had the money to purchase all of that. Then the retribution afterwards would be horrific.

I ordered the book from Inter-Library Loan yesterday, so as soon as I get it I will join in. I must be in a Medieval period because I am listening to The Red Queen by Philippa Gregory and am enjoying that story. I am going to have to do some research on the Planteganets for that book so doing the two of the at about the same time will be good.

I am about 70% into the book and it has turned into a very very pleasant surpise. When I scanned the reviews I was like great Medievel this will be a chore, so glad that it is flowing very nicely. Since I have so enjoyed this one I will be changing my maybe for Im in for the next 2 or 3.

Am I the only one here that honestly likes both sides Maud and Stephen. It seems like I should pick a side but I like both of them but for different reasons.

Ann, I agree with you. I see Maude's viewpoint in that her father did select her as the heir but I also see Stephen's side because in those days women weren't educated and were considered basically as property with no ideas or abilities and how could she be a queen and rule when she "hadn't an idea" in her head. I'm not as far along as you are but I am enjoying it immensely.

Am I the only one here that honestly likes both sides Maud and Stephen. It seems like I should pick a side but I like both of them but for different reasons.

Yes, I found that too. Unusual in any novel, as one is usually made out to be the bad guy and the other the good guy. Not here. I liked that a lot.

I love that SKP really fleshes out both sides of the argument so that you sympathize with both Maud and Stephen. In her Welsh trilogy, she even manages to portray King John somewhat sympathetically (well, relatively speaking...)!

I think the whole endless war was crazy and both sides to blame.
I didn't have a favorite either.

I'm also amazed how much more I'm enjoying it past about page, 600. Glad I stuck with it.

Im kinda surpised this hasnt shown up on the 1001 List of Books. Or at least it should because this is alot better then some of the stuff that has made it.

The attitude about women is so different from the way we think now. It is hard to see how Western Civilization made the transition from that to where we are now. This attitude is what is being explored in The Red Queen. The author portrays Margaret Beaufort as a woman who wanted to be a nun and believes that her true calling was to be an Abbesses of a great Abbey. Instead she was married off at 12 and when that husband died, to another man, and then once again. She had no choice in the matter and she knew it. Worse she was only in demand because she had money and was a vessel to carry a bloodline. She was a broodmare and that was it. Makes me glad I wasn't born back then.

I just downloaded the kindle version (if it doesn't physically add height to my stacks of books, does it count as adding to my unread stacks?).

Like all kindles (at least kindle apps for iPhone and iPad), it opens at the first "reading" page. But if you go back to the actual beginning, it DOES have the family tree AND the maps.

>
Clif
Like all kindles (at least kindle apps for iPhone and iPad), it opens at the first "reading" page. But if you go back to the actual beginning, it DOES have the family tree AND the maps.

Just got my copy through ILL today! I was surprised to find that it's "only" 746 pages -- it looks more like a 900-pager to me! I'll be starting this weekend :)

that must be small print. mine is 900 pages.

Or narrow margins maybe?

I recently listened to Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett--so how fun to get a different perspective--(and a different story line, of course) on the same historical events. My guess would be that the WhiteShip is the ship that Jack Jackson's father sailed on. That should not exactly qualify as a spoiler for Pillars.

Mine is small print 741 pages.

#52

You are correct. The ship that sank at the beginning of Pillars of the Earth is The White Ship. Exactly what happened in that tragic event is still one of the great mysteries of history. Subsequent events are as great of an upheaval in English history as we're the Wars of the Roses.

This is such a great book and Im so glad I jumped into this group read because I wouldnt have read it other wise. I had Time and Chance as a maybe but now it is a definite read and cant wait till April to start.

My copy of Time and Chance is 'only' about 500 pages phew! I also read a note from the author who explains that the reasonm why it took her so long to write the second book was that she got glandular fever that knocked her out of the game for 18 months. I've had glandular fever so I can believe it!

I've finally started this. Only about 50 pages in and already totally sucked in to the world Penman describes. She's so good at giving life to these historical characters.

The farther I go, the more I want!

So glad we have 3 more books in this little series.

I got my copy of WCSS from ILL last night. I will start reading it this weekend. I should have probably read it when I was reading Mistress of the Art of Death as that book takes place during the reign of Henry II and the characters in that book keep talking about how England could not afford to have another period in history such as the Civil War between Maud and Stephen. It is also strange that I picked up The Red Queen and am listening to it. It is about the Wars of the Roses and I can't help but think that the thirty year period from 1450 to 1480 was much like the period in the Civil Wars between Maud and Stephen. So it did happen again.

I was astonished at the size of this book. It will be hard to read it in bed because it is so heavy. Can't wait to get started on it.

It isn't surprising that certain characters overlap between WCHSS and Pillars. Now I've just run across Waleran. I have to say that I am not enjoying this book greatly. Everyone else seems be thrilled with it, however, and I will trudge on. LibraryThing is such a wonderful spur to my reading!!

#61 - I found the first half tough going but liked the second half MUCH better. Perhaps you will too?

#62
Yeah, that will probably be true for me, too. But I don't know that I will finish by end of the month at the rate I'm going!! Fluish/cold has my energy level waaay down!

I'm about 140 pages in, just about to start chapter 9. I'm also not gripped by the story, though I'm finding the history interesting. But I'm still hoping to eventually get sucked in like you did, Majkia.

I also find myself sympathetic to both Maude and Stephan in turns. The one thing I'm really liking about this book so far is how there is no obvious side to root for.

only 40 pages left to go!
the second half is definitely better.

I got a good start on this book last night. About 50 pages read. So far I am not enamoured with the writing style. It seems almost glib, but since I have heard about these books from many different sources, and the comments are mosty positive, I think it will prably change. Historically, Maud was considered a termagant. I always thought that was because history, especially history of the Middle Ages, was written by men, who dislike strong women. Maude was a strong woman and even after the death of her father pursued her right to the throne. The thought that she would do so was unthinkable back then and in my opinion brought about her reputation.

Historians also portray Stephen much as Penman does in this book. He was easy going and well liked but viewed as weak and therefore unsuitable as a leader. I think this characterization of him might be more accurate than that of Maud.

And what about the stereotype of Geoffrey? I would think that if Maud was as smart as she appears in the historical record, even with the detractors, she would have found a way to manage him. But who knows for sure? It certainly ens the door very wide for the novelist.

All this brings to mind the new PBS series titled "Makers". This is the once about the movers and shakers of the women's movement. I think that Hilary Clinton might have lots in common with Maud.

Chapter 9 is where I am, also.

I'm still dragging through it. I know that if I had not read Pillars of the Earth I'd be much more charitable towards this. That story I found fascinating. This story ... okay, everyone says it will get better, and I will continue reading it, but I know I won't get it done by Feb unless something picks up. Kudos to all who have finished it!! I think I'm going to put it into the one-chapter-a-time category and begin reading something that grabs me: like (don't laugh too hard) Lessons from the Dying.

:)

I've finished this morning, and enjoyed the book though it is a bit of a slog at times. I'd forgotten that historical fiction can be a little too event based, but at least these historical times came alive on the page.

I really enjoyed too but I'm ready to let the story rest for a few months before I pickup #2.

A part of me wanted to cheat and go ahead with Time and Chance but Im going to behave myself since I have a full reading schudule already for the next couple of months.

I finished last night and am looking forward to the rest of the series. I wasn't as big a fan of this one as The Sunne in Splendour or the Welsh trilogy (I loved the setting and learning the Welsh customs in those), but I still really liked it. I like her historical fiction because I find it a good mix of sticking to the facts with events and battles, but taking some freedom in imagining the characterizations and interactions.

Random story: I recently lent my copy of When Christ and His Saints Slept to a friend, and he called me tonight to gush about how much he loved it! I was definitely excited to spread the Penman love. :) Looking forward to Time and Chance even though I didn't officially participate in the WCaHSS group read.

It is interesting how sometimes reading and life intersect. By that I mean the discovery of Richard III's body in Leicester. This book is all about how the House of Plantagenet cane to rule England and when I woke up Monday morning it was to hear that the last Plantagenet king (actually I think of him as a York king, not Plantagenet, but all the newspaper stories said Plantagenet) was found. I wonder if they will try to do DNA on the bodies of the boys that were found in the Tower of London twenty years ago?

I am now at the halfway mark on this book and am liking it. It is a historical novel that makes no attempt to be historical but concentrates on making it a story. I am surprised at how much of a women's story the author is making this. I knew from history (non-fiction) that both Matilda and Maud played major roles in the Civil War and find this version to be an interesting take on that fact. I remember reading many years ago that as repressed as we tend to think Medieval society was the reality for the privileged classes was often quite different. Women like Eleanor of Aquitaine had a surprising amount of autonomy and power.

I often wonder what the women in this story would think of modern leaders like Margaret Thatcher and Angela Merkel? Or even of Golda Meier? Or what about Dr. Ruth carrying a rifle and being a sniper or women in combat roles in the current military.

Joan of Arc was a woman warrior but she didn't come along until the 1400's and even then she did not actually fight. She lead the French troops into battle but she didn't fight. A few years ago I read a book by Antonia Fraser titled Warrior Queens and was surprised by how many women actually did lead troops into battle. Maybe Maud and Matilda protested too much?

I finished this book this weekend. I found it only average and think that there might be better historical novels that deal with this time period. First of all at 725 pages it is too long. It is really two books rolled into one and I don't think it works as one book. Put simply, it drags. It would have been better to split the book into two - one about the first part of the war with Stephan and Maud and one about Henry II and the last stages of the war.

I did not think that the insertion of the fictional character of Ranulf helped the book. I found it more of a hindrance than a helpful vehicle, but I recognize that probably is a personal preference. There were enough colorful characters of the period that she could have found one of them around which to do a fictionalized life story. There were story lines that went nowhere and these hindered the flow of the novel. An example is the rescue of Ranulf by the Jewish peddlers, and Ranulf's rescue of the Fens orphans. Whatever, happened there? Where was the editor of this book?

I also wanted more detail in the strategies of warfare of the times. For instance, it was not until late in the book that the author explained that the accepted style of warfare was defensive. This is in direct contrast to my modern idea of war as mobile and fluid. Castles were built to be fortified and put under siege. That led me to wonder about the castles - Are we talking about huge stone buildings like we think of castles of today? Or were these heavily fortified wooden structures. It seems to me that the later must have been the case because it often took forty to fifty years to build stone castles and I know from other reading that stone castles reached their zenith in the 15th century right before guns were common. However, the author does not explain that at any point in the book.

Another distraction was the partial use of the common vernacular of the times. The author partially used words common in the 12th Century and the rest of the book was in modern English. An example was the constant use of the word certes. (I am sure that there were other old French words strewn around the book, but I just don't have them at hand right now. For certes that one word bugged me.) For me that just didn't work.

What the book did do, was to make clearer to me the failings of Stephen and the growth of both Maud and Matilda as rulers in their own right. In our modern view we tend to think of the plight of women in this time. That is true, but there were opportunities for women, especially women of wealth and education. I think that perhaps Ken Follett explains that part of life in Medieval Europe a little better than Penman does in his Pillars of the Earth books.

In the historical notes the author says that she had a picture of Katherine Hepburn as Eleanor in "Lion in Winter" in her head as she wrote the last part of this book. I had that same picture only for me it came to mind when the story was about Maud and Geoffrey. Now there is a story. I ended up liking both of these characters and I enjoyed reading about them. Maybe she will do a book about those two and their lives?

For me this was an average endeavor by this author. I would recommend it to people who have an interest in this time period and I will go ahead and read the next book in this series.

75 - I'm disappointed to hear that Ranulf is a fictional character. I know this book is fiction, but it's based on actual history so I assumed all the characters and basic events were real, that only the details were embellished. It's been fun reading about these actual historical people and the kind of people they may have been. Now you've got me wondering if any of the other major characters are fictional. It's kind of spoiled my enjoyment of the book, (but just a tch).

Ranulf was the only major character in the book that was fictional. The others were all real and as far as I know the basic character traits that they displayed were also real.

Thanks, Benita. That makes me feel better. I'm still sorry Ranulf was not a real person, but maybe now I'll stop trying to figure out who and what is fictional.