Chinese Four Great Classical Novels

These novels are considered the greatest of Chinese fiction, and all four are on the 1001 list. I've tried to read these many times, but the novels are just so long and involved that eventually I lose track of the hundreds of characters. Each time I do get farther and farther though, and each time the novels get better.

If anyone would like to join me in reading these in 2014, I would really appreciate it! The more the merrier. No pressure though, I'm planning to read a lot of things in 2014 and I don't want to make deadlines I won't keep.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Published in the 14th century by Luo Guanzhong. It's a military novel about the battles for power after the disintegration of the Han Dynasty. I got a bit of encouragement with this one last summer when I was told that Chinese people don't know who all the characters are either.

The Water Margin. Published in the 14th century by Shi Nai'an (disputed). It's about the adventures of 108 outlaws. They eventually form an army together, but I haven't gotten to that part. The part that inspires Jin Ping Mei (the 5th great classical novel, not on the 1001 list but really should be) is early on.

Monkey. Published in 1592 by Wu Cheng'en. I haven't read any of this one, but it is about a monk, his pilgrimage to India, and his three disciples. One of the disciples is a monkey, hence the title.

A Dream of Red Mansions. Published in the 18th century by Cao Xueqin. It's about the fabulously wealthy Jia family, and supposedly details their downfall except I haven't gotten to that part yet. According to Wikipedia there are only 40 major characters, but there are 100s of minor characters.

I will be starting with Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and I'll be reading the free version of Brewitt-Taylor translation at this website. It has tons fan commentary from people interested in Dynasty Warriors and others, which will make it very slow reading but will hopefully help with my confusion.
http://www.threekingdoms.com/

There is also another free version of Brewitt-Taylor here with tons of illustrations.
http://www.new3k.com/newrotkebook/

To show the madness, I have made a list of the characters in chapter 1 that might be important. There are 120 chapters total. It's difficult to tell what characters I'll see again, but I remember Dong Zhuo, Liu Bei, Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, and Cao Cao are all very important. I forget which of the eunuchs are important and which of the Yellow Turbans

Han Empire
Emperor Ling- The Han Emperor
Chief Eunuch- Cao Jie
Regent Marshal- He Jin
Court Counselor- Cai Yong
Ten Regular Attendants- Zhang Rang, Zhao Zhong, Cheng Kuang, Duan Gui, Feng Xu, Guo Sheng, Hou Lan, Jian Shuo, Cao Jie, Xia Yun
Imperial Commanders- Lu Zhi, Huangfu Song, Zhu Jun, Dong Zhuo
Eunuch- Zhuo Feng

Yellow Turbans
Zhang Jue, Zhang Ba, Zhang Li
Traitor- Tang Zhou
Sent to give Eunuchs gifts- Ma Yuanyi
Chieftain- Cheng Yuanzhi
General- Deng Mao

Youzhou
Imperial Protector- Liu Yan
Commander- Zhou Jing
Liu Bei.
Liu Bei's uncle- Liu Yuanqi
Liu Bei's masters- Zheng Xuan, Lu Zhi
Liu Bei's friend- Gongsun Zan
Zhang Fei.
Guan Yu.
Merchants- Zhang Shiping, Su Shuang

Other
Imperial Protector of Qingzhou- Gong Jing

Cao Cao.
Cao Cao's father- Cao Song
Cao Song's foster father- Cao Teng
People that tell Cao Cao things- Qiao Xuan, He Yong, Xu Shao

Romance is an astounding book. There are only two or three characters that you really need to keep track of and that becomes easier as the novel progresses and others fall by the wayside. The novel has absolutely everything in it.

Well, not robots.

Check out Monkey and Pigsy on YouTube for a preview of that one. The TV show has to be waaaaaay better than the book!

I've read all four of these novels in recent years, and, while I won't be re-reading them any time soon, I thought it might be useful to share some observations with you.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms - I found this to be the most difficult of the four, not just because of the number of characters, but because of the complex and fluid political situation during the first half of the novel. It was hard to keep track of who was fighting for whom or what. But in the second half things settle down into three major power blocs, and the story becomes quite easy to follow. It's well worth the effort, as this is China's Iliad, and its characters are just as iconic. The Romance, not Karl Marx, was Mao's favorite reading material and chief inspiration.

I found this map to be particularly helpful as it shows places with their ancient names, and I kept a printed copy of it with me as I read the book.

The Water Margin (or Outlaws of the Marsh) - This was my favorite of the four. It was hard to put down, and I was sorry when it ended. It is a lively adventure story with some historical basis. The closest counterparts to it in Western literature would be the Arthurian Romances and the story of Robin Hood, but the Chinese work is much earthier and grander. There are lots of characters, but this isn't a problem at all as they are introduced sequentially in the form of various semi-independent adventures, and only a few major ones have to be remembered throughout the work. They are so vividly drawn that this is not a problem.

Monkey (or Journey to the West) - Beware the numerous abridgments of this work, some of which are drastically shortened and simplified. This is a work of mythological fantasy with few ties to the world as we know it. Some background in Buddhism (which I do not have) would help in understanding some references and ideas, but is not essential. This was the easiest of the four works to read because there are only three major characters. For a Western equivalent picture Don Quixote in the world of the Odyssey.

A Dream of Red Mansions - This is an intimate, spiritual story completely unlike the other three. Most of the principal characters are teenage girls, and instead of sword fights you have poetry contests. Almost the entire novel takes place within the boundaries of a single estate outside Beijing. There are several versions in print because the author died before finishing it, and left several manuscripts which differ in details. I read the 5-volume Penguin edition with the ending written by Cao's contemporary, Gao E. I highly recommend it. Gao's writing in the final chapters isn't up to the standards of Cao, but there is one scene in particular that may be the most moving piece of writing I have ever read. There are lots and lots of characters, but the principal ones are easy to remember--after five volumes they have almost become your own family--and the Penguin edition has a nice character list at the back of each volume. There is nothing in Western literature that can compare to this unless you can envision Jane Austen married to Leo Tolstoy.

Austen married to Tolstoy would probably have sorted both of them out right and proper. But just think what their children would have produced!
Great summary StevenTX. Glad to know I've already got the hardest one under my belt!

Does anyone have a preferred edition for Monkey (or Journey to the West)?

I can easily find the Grove Press edition translated by Arthur Waley (9780802130860) and have access to a Turtle Publishing edition translated by Timothy Richard (9780804842723), but both of these are under 300 pages, so presumably abridged. There is also an abridged edition published by University of Chicago Press translated by Anthony C. Yu (9780226971551) in the library system.

I'd love to follow on any of these 4 works if I can at all get hold of a copy here.
I own "A Dream of Red Mansions", read half of it in 2010 (or 11?), loved it - but thanks to a stressful time at work put it aside for too long and will have to restart.

Great advice, as ever, Steven!

There have been group readings in the Ancient China group of some of these.

The Romance of three kingdoms:

http://www.librarything.com/talktopic.php?topic=18182
http://www.librarything.com/topic/27061
http://www.librarything.com/topic/36915
http://www.librarything.com/topic/50299

The Story of the stone (Romance of the red chamber/dream mansions):

http://www.librarything.com/topic/72239
http://www.librarything.com/topic/112287

Wow, those were great summaries! Trying to compare these to Western works is really difficult.

I've picked out the translations I want to read. The Shapiro translation for Water Margin (Outlaws of the Marsh). I've read the first two volumes of the Dent-Young translation before, but all four volumes of the Shapiro translation are only $20 on Amazon.

I want to read the new Yu translation of Monkey (Journey to the West). It appears to be unabridged, different from the old Yu translation, but it's fairly expensive. Maybe by the time I get to it my library will have it, or I can use interlibrary loan.

And the Penguin translation for The Dream of Red Chambers.

The new Jin Ping Mei translation by David Tod Roy was just also finished. I definitely want to read that, but it'll be after I finished Water Margin.

With RoTK, I'm on chapter 7 right now, and still making lists of all the new characters. This helps a lot. Even if there are only a couple of characters you need to know for the whole novel, to make sense of the individual chapters you really do need to know who is who's general, and which side everyone is one. It's really encouraging to know it slows down around half-way through.

I like how RoTK isn't dualist. There isn't a single good side and a single bad side, just various shades of gray and some people that are evil and some people that try not to be. But I also wonder if I think that only because I don't interpret the novel with an ancient Chinese person's morality.

For example, in chapter 4, there is the famous story where Cao Cao overhears his hosts discussing how to butcher a pig. He misinterprets this, thinking that they are talking about killing him, and slaughters the entire household before seeing the pig. While leaving, he runs into the master of the house who left to buy wine and has no idea. He kills the master in cold blood so he won't have to deal with the possible vengeance.

Obviously that was a horrible thing to do, but how damning is this supposed to be? Do the ancient Chinese have the same concept of hospitality as the ancient Greeks? How justified was it, considering Cao Cao thought his life was in danger? Is this a side note or a thing I'm supposed think about every time Cao Cao reappears? Is there even an answer to this question, or is the ambiguity the point?

#6 - Jane Austen for the domesticity, feminine sensitivity, and depth of character; Leo Tolstoy for the scale, emotional intensity, and spirituality.

#7 - The edition I read of Journey to the West (Monkey) was the one from Foreign Language Press translated by W. J. F. Jenner. It's four volumes in a boxed set and totals 2346 pages. I was very pleased with it.

My edition of Outlaws of the Marsh (Water Margin) was also from Foreign Language Press, with a translation by Sidney Shapiro, 4 volumes 2149 pages.

Well, I'm pretty sure this thread has convinced me to push these four to the very back of my list! Maybe someday soon I'll give Monkey a try though, to see if these are really as scary as I imagine.

Is Outlaws of the Marsh the book also translated as All Men are Brothers? If so, I have a copy and have been wanting to read it.

CayenneEllis, you should join us! I'm making the works seem harder then they are so I feel better about my failure.

Anamorphic, yes, that's the same work.

#13 - Yes, that is another variant title. The Wikipedia article has some information on the different versions of the novel and some of the earlier translations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaws_of_the_marsh

This group is dangerous..now I'm tempted by all 4 of these works! But I really should stick to only 1 lengthy tome per year I think.

Still, it looks like my year long reads are sorted for the rest of the decade at least!

A Dream of Red Mansions is one of my favorite works of fiction there is, really, all of the Chinese classics deserve a lot more recognition in English-speaking countries. I was surprised to see a discussion on them.

I own a copy of A Dream of Red Mansions, but haven't gotten around to it yet; the edition I have is three volumes, and I've been thinking I should probably keep it for when I have time off from work, so I'll be able to spend a lot of time reading and finish it somewhat more quickly... However, if there will be a group-read sort of thing going on, I'll try to join in.

I just recieved a copy of the Shapiro translation of Outlaws of the Marsh on Amazon used. I ordered this
one, a four volume set of blue paperbacks. What I got was a three volume set of red paperbacks that is the same IBSN. I don't think it's missing a volume because it has all the 100 chapters Shapiro translated, but it really confused me for a bit. I suppose it must be new or something. The paper quality is also really poor, by which I mean you can read what's on the back of a page through the front.

Over the next fortnight I have 40 hours in the air and 8 hours in Dallas Fort Worth airport so I've try Monkey: Journey to the West while I've got time to kill. I have three versions of this, the longest of which is a 1350 page Kindle version - presumably somewhat abridged compared with StevenTX's 2346 page monster, but long enough for me to at least "tick the box" I feel.

I made a start on it today - pure fantasy and slightly silly, but not a difficult read so far.

40 hours in the air and 8 hours in Dallas Fort Worth airport

Ouch! You'll need some of Monkey's magic to endure that. Give me a wave when you're about 40 miles east of DFW.

#21. Will do. I wish there was an abridged version of these flights!

#20 Puckers, I envy you that you can actually spend all those hours on reading just one book, the 1350 pages of Monkey: Journey to the West. I just finished an abridged version of it, which was sufficient for me. I just don't have the patience to read again and again about meeting and getting rid of monsters and demons. I know there's a lot more to get out of this classic and I hope you did!

#23. I'm about a third through and it is getting repetitious. I'll finish it but likely take a few breaks to maintain some of the entertainment value.

I'm now about 650 pages in to Monkey: A Journey to the West and thought I'd make some observations about the book to date.

The version I'm reading is the one from Amazon for Kindle, which is 1385 pages long. This compares with the 2350 page "unabridged" version that StevenTX refers to in #11 above. I have also got a copy of the Penguin Classics translation by Arthur Waley which is 350 pages long. Comparing the last with my version, they follow closely for the first 150 pages where the background to the main characters is given. I'm now at page 650 in the Kindle version and this story appears around page 280 in Waley. The "missing" pages appear to be the repetitious encounters between the monk and his disciples with various demons as they head west. These chapters follow very similar patterns - the party reach an enormous mountain/river/town, are deceived by a local demon in disguise, but after being captured there is a big fight between the demon and Monkey (who has great supernatural powers) and the demon is subdued (repeat). There are some subtle differences in these encounters, but not much and I can understand why an abridgement by chopping out numerous encounters would be possible and not detract from the overarching plot.

I note that the unabridged version has 100 chapters, and the Kindle version has 100 chapters so it contains all the stories. The 1000 "missing" pages are presumably details in these stories. I regularly noted some remarks which appear editorial e.g. "We will omit a description of the night or how the monks intoned the scriptures..." and assume this is the difference between the versions.

I get the impression from the repetition in the stories that this is not a book to read from cover to cover in one sitting but rather one to dip in and out of like a collection of fables. Maybe someone in 16th century China would get more from this lengthy book than I am.

Hmmm. I normally am very strict about not reading abrigements, but I might have to for this one. I think I'd read the longer abridgment, probably the Kindle version, at least. Does anyone have any suggestions for someone who dislikes abridgments but is terrified of these stories?

Read the abridgement. You'll get the point. There are so many more books to read!

Given that the next 700 pages in the Kindle version are dealt with in 70 pages in Waley's, I'm getting nervous about my endurance ability.....

There is nothing difficult about the stories, and if you do lose the thread the main characters are constantly doing a full recap to the various people they meet along the way.

There has been discussion that several books from 1800s which were originally published as series benefit from being read in a slow manner, one chapter every now and then, instead of going through as quickly as possible. A bit like a tv series, that helps on repetition and constant recaps.

I guess the same would apply here.

That's exactly what it feels like - like watching back to back episodes of "Scooby Doo". Same heroes, different monster ( who turns out to be not really a monster), no character development, nothing learnt for the next encounter, each episode entertaining in its own way, but you could skip the lot and not miss out!

Journey to the West is the only one of the four I've never even started, and by the above comments it looks like I had the right hunch about it. Water Margin/Outlaws of the March was slightly similar—the edition I have is 1605 pages (the FLP Shapiro, but in three volumes with black covers. Confusing!) and I reckoned that it could've been cut to half the length without losing anything crucial. But The Dream of the Red Chamber, I wish it were five times as long...

I finished Journey to the West this evening. Following on from my earlier posts, the second half of the book follows the same repetitive pattern of demonic encounters, only really moving on in the last 50-100 pages as the Journey is concluded.

Reading a longer version certainly gives you a sense of the epic nature of the tale, with the changing seasons and the passage of years constantly described. And you eventually learn that the total number of demonic encounters is a religiously significant total of 81. However I think you could quite happily read one of the shorter abridgments and not miss anything of significance plot-wise.

I thought I'd revive this old thread for the benefit of those looking for guidance on these four Chinese classics.

I've made a start on Romance of the Three Kingdoms. As others have noted there are numerous characters (close to 1000 throughout the book) but provided you don't get bogged down in remembering them all you quickly latch on to the ones that recur regularly.

I'll update with further thoughts as I progress.

oh goody... one of the few that has made my hall of fame! Really interested to hear your thoughts

thanks for bumping this thread - very helpful.

I'm now just over half way through Romance of the Three Kingdoms. The comments above capture much of what I'm experience - hundreds of characters but most seem to (literally) lose their head within a few pages so I'm not bothering to pay much attention to them individually. By this stage of the book China is settling in to three factions (that presumably become the three kingdoms) and there are only a dozen characters that seem to matter.

While there have been a couple of supernatural stories thrown in, the vast bulk of the book revolves around political and military strategy. Its interesting how leaders switch loyalty at the drop of a hat (or a head!) -must have been very confusing for the ordinary soldier as he finds himself buddying up with people he was planning to hack to death 24 hours earlier. There are also no real "goodies" and "baddies" - all leaders are involved in double-crossing and impetuous violent executions.

Certainly the constant battles get a bit repetitious but I'm finding this more engaging than Monkey and interested that much of it is based on actual events and characters from second century China.

I teach English to Chinese children online. One of my students told me about these novels today. He is 12 years old, I think. He told me he read (or is reading?) them in school. I ran across this thread in my search for more information. Now I am considering reading the novels. I am so intrigued!