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1sandstone78
It's May already! And that means our group read has come to the third Book of the Raksura, The Siren Depths!
All his life, Moon roamed the Three Worlds, a solitary wanderer forced to hide his true nature — until he was reunited with his own kind, the Raksura, and found a new life as consort to Jade, sister queen of the Indigo Cloud court. But now a rival court has laid claim to him, and Jade may or may not be willing to fight for him. Beset by doubts, Moon must travel in the company of strangers to a distant realm where he will finally face the forgotten secrets of his past, even as an old enemy returns with a vengeance. The Fell, a vicious race of shape-shifting predators, menaces groundlings and Raksura alike. Determined to crossbreed with the Raksura for arcane purposes, they are driven by an ancient voice that cries out from . . . .The siren depths.Well! That sounds ominous, doesn't it?
I am, shamefully, not through The Serpent Sea yet myself, but I'll get there! How's everyone else doing? Feel free to continue spoiler discussion for The Serpent Sea here or in our Serpent Sea thread, and I'll join when I get there! Discussion for The Cloud Roads is back in our March thread. The next book in the series, Stories of the Raksura volume 1 comprised of a long story and a shorter story together, doesn't come out until September, so we'll pick up then. In the meantime, I might run group reads for a couple of standalones- Melissa Scott's Burning Bright will be in June, but I'm open to either a duology or two more standalones for July/August if my availability holds.
For now, The Siren Depths! I'm guessing that's a Fell on the cover?
3zjakkelien
I re-read this one right after re-reading The serpent sea. Like the first time I read the trilogy, this one is my favorite. It shows a lot about Raksuran society, which I really like. It has some more about the Fell and halfbreeds, and I was ok with that, but the Raksura remain favorites.
4kceccato
On p. 35 now.
Thoughts so far:
1) I wish I hadn't waited so long to read this after I finished The Serpent Sea. My memory of the previous book isn't as strong as I wish it were; I only recall being a bit impatient with the "leviathan city" plot because it took the focus away from Raskuran culture and didn't give Jade enough to do. Please, oh please, Third Book, let Jade have at least one or two Moments of Awesome!
2) Moon is an easy hero to root for, a guy anxious to prove himself, one who acts from compassion and thinks doing the right and good thing is far more important than how it appears to others. He could easily make my "Favorite Male Characters" list.
3) Pearl is as unpleasant as ever. I don't dislike her because she's mean to Jade, or even because she's mean to Moon. I dislike her because she undervalues the Arbora -- not at all something a wise queen would do.
Thoughts so far:
1) I wish I hadn't waited so long to read this after I finished The Serpent Sea. My memory of the previous book isn't as strong as I wish it were; I only recall being a bit impatient with the "leviathan city" plot because it took the focus away from Raskuran culture and didn't give Jade enough to do. Please, oh please, Third Book, let Jade have at least one or two Moments of Awesome!
2) Moon is an easy hero to root for, a guy anxious to prove himself, one who acts from compassion and thinks doing the right and good thing is far more important than how it appears to others. He could easily make my "Favorite Male Characters" list.
3) Pearl is as unpleasant as ever. I don't dislike her because she's mean to Jade, or even because she's mean to Moon. I dislike her because she undervalues the Arbora -- not at all something a wise queen would do.
5zjakkelien
>4 kceccato: Your point 1 is exactly how I felt! I get impatient with it, wishing we could go back to Raksuran society...
Your point 2: what I like about Moon and Jade is that in any other book, their roles would be reversed. I find it very well done, and carried out with respect to both of them.
I also love the relationship between Aeriat and Arbora, the warriors instinct to protect the Arbora, the Arbora wisdom and practicality, the way they interact. The Arbora's willingness to accept Moon for who he is, even if he doesn't follow custom. The Arbora are the heart of the society, I think.
I've always thought that if I had to choose a fantasy world to live in, it would be a Tayledras Vale, but I'm starting to think that a Raksuran court would not be so bad either!
Your point 2: what I like about Moon and Jade is that in any other book, their roles would be reversed. I find it very well done, and carried out with respect to both of them.
I also love the relationship between Aeriat and Arbora, the warriors instinct to protect the Arbora, the Arbora wisdom and practicality, the way they interact. The Arbora's willingness to accept Moon for who he is, even if he doesn't follow custom. The Arbora are the heart of the society, I think.
I've always thought that if I had to choose a fantasy world to live in, it would be a Tayledras Vale, but I'm starting to think that a Raksuran court would not be so bad either!
6kceccato
Have read some more on this -- not as quickly as I would like, since it has to take its turn with other books in my rotation, but it continues to interest and engage me.
Wells presents a complex portrait of a matriarchal society, neither inherently good nor inherently bad. There is no unspoken implication that females really shouldn't be in charge -- yet I can't help noticing that, with the exception of Jade, the queens are a pretty despicable lot. There's Pearl the overbearing narcissist, Tempest the bigoted bully, Onyx the bigoted bully II, and Malachite, who (my impression is) can't be trusted. Then of course we have the Fell queens, who are pure evil. My only hope for a sympathetic queen other than Jade is Celadon, Moon's sister. To those who have read it: does Celadon prove to be halfway decent, and break the general pattern of queenly nastiness? Any ideas on why decent queens are so rare?
Wells presents a complex portrait of a matriarchal society, neither inherently good nor inherently bad. There is no unspoken implication that females really shouldn't be in charge -- yet I can't help noticing that, with the exception of Jade, the queens are a pretty despicable lot. There's Pearl the overbearing narcissist, Tempest the bigoted bully, Onyx the bigoted bully II, and Malachite, who (my impression is) can't be trusted. Then of course we have the Fell queens, who are pure evil. My only hope for a sympathetic queen other than Jade is Celadon, Moon's sister. To those who have read it: does Celadon prove to be halfway decent, and break the general pattern of queenly nastiness? Any ideas on why decent queens are so rare?
7zjakkelien
>6 kceccato: Yes, Celadon is completely decent, and (spoiler about your remark about Malachite) although I do not like Malachite's behaviour all the time (I think she's rather high-handed), she is ultimately decent.
And wasn't there another good queen, the head of Emerald Twilight?
And wasn't there another good queen, the head of Emerald Twilight?
8kceccato
7: I don't remember much about Ice (from The Serpent Sea), although both her daughters, Halcyon and Tempest, are horrible.
Good to know about Celadon, though.
Good to know about Celadon, though.
9Sakerfalcon
I've just started this today and am a few pages in but hooked already.
10zjakkelien
>8 kceccato: Well, isn't she the one who contacts Moon's family , which may not work out so well in the beginning, but which was well meant?
11kceccato
10: It's been a regrettable while since I read The Serpent Sea. Hopefully more of it will come back to me as I read The Siren Depths.
These books are worth re-reading. They'll be on my shelf for a while.
These books are worth re-reading. They'll be on my shelf for a while.
12sandstone78
I am still back in The Serpent Sea, but I have to comment that I like Wells' cities a lot- they are possibly my favorite feature of her work so far, and the one that stands out most to me. The Turning City, the Indigo Cloud Court, Emerald Twilight Court, and the leviathan city, along with the tiered city of Charisat in City of Bones and the pirates' asteroid in Razor's Edge, feel like viable, distinct places with their own interesting and unique cultures. I like that she often shows things like how people make a living, shop, and eat as well as the lives and intrigue of the rich and powerful.
I second Wells being a re-readable author for sure- I'm already interested in rereading City of Bones, but it will have to wait until I finish the Ile-Rien and Emilie books because I want to read those too.
>6 kceccato: While I think Wells avoids most of the pitfalls inherent in a "discrimiflip" setup like the "flip" of expectations where male consorts are subject to social pressures more commonly expected of women, I think that this kind of thing is almost a corollary to any discrimiflip- the sympathy of the narrative remains with the victim of the discrimination, and the ones doing the discriminating are demonized. The problem with this is that the ones doing the discrimination are often the ones who are poorly represented or villainized in fiction already- see things like Save the Pearls or Out for really egregious examples.
In this case, instead of a story focusing on men with women sidelined as trophy objects, we get poor oppressed men and villainous women who heinously treat them as trophy objects (except the understanding and accepting love interest.) I do think that Wells avoids some of the pitfalls inherent in this setup with the reigning queen at Emerald Twilight and making it clear, at least to some degree, in The Cloud Roads that Pearl wasn't one-dimensionally horrible. (Though it's hard to call her a good ruler based on what I've seen of her, it's at least acknowledged that she's facing tough circumstances and her flaws have been exacerbated by Fell influence.)
I wish, however, that we got more female characters. Right now in The Serpent Sea, I feel like there's a bit of a drought- right at halfway through where I'm at (I'm listening to the audiobook on my commute), Moon and Stone are in the leviathan city trying to figure out what to do about the magister (also a dude.) I wanted more Jade, and was disappointed that she was left behind, though I can accept the justification that the seed thieves might have bolted seeing her since they know what Raksura looked like from the carvings.
(Though that justification is getting flimsier and flimsier, considering that Stone and Moon keep flying around the city in their Raksuran forms, taking no precautions to avoid being seen other than "well, it's dark and/or foggy, nobody will notice"! Also, I can't quite figure out the part about Raksura not wearing shoes being a big deal, when Raksuran groundling forms already stand out as distinctly different from other groundling forms in the area- if the Magister has seen live Raksura in groundling form, he'll recognize them as Raksura because the Raksuran groundling form is distinctly different from other groundlings who live in the area.
It seems to me that there's still an inconsistency in the books where Wells treats Raksuran groundling form as being like a universal "normal" groundling form able to blend in to groundling civilizations when from the groundlings we see it's no such thing...)
I second Wells being a re-readable author for sure- I'm already interested in rereading City of Bones, but it will have to wait until I finish the Ile-Rien and Emilie books because I want to read those too.
>6 kceccato: While I think Wells avoids most of the pitfalls inherent in a "discrimiflip" setup like the "flip" of expectations where male consorts are subject to social pressures more commonly expected of women, I think that this kind of thing is almost a corollary to any discrimiflip- the sympathy of the narrative remains with the victim of the discrimination, and the ones doing the discriminating are demonized. The problem with this is that the ones doing the discrimination are often the ones who are poorly represented or villainized in fiction already- see things like Save the Pearls or Out for really egregious examples.
In this case, instead of a story focusing on men with women sidelined as trophy objects, we get poor oppressed men and villainous women who heinously treat them as trophy objects (except the understanding and accepting love interest.) I do think that Wells avoids some of the pitfalls inherent in this setup with the reigning queen at Emerald Twilight and making it clear, at least to some degree, in The Cloud Roads that Pearl wasn't one-dimensionally horrible. (Though it's hard to call her a good ruler based on what I've seen of her, it's at least acknowledged that she's facing tough circumstances and her flaws have been exacerbated by Fell influence.)
I wish, however, that we got more female characters. Right now in The Serpent Sea, I feel like there's a bit of a drought- right at halfway through where I'm at (I'm listening to the audiobook on my commute), Moon and Stone are in the leviathan city trying to figure out what to do about the magister (also a dude.) I wanted more Jade, and was disappointed that she was left behind, though I can accept the justification that the seed thieves might have bolted seeing her since they know what Raksura looked like from the carvings.
(Though that justification is getting flimsier and flimsier, considering that Stone and Moon keep flying around the city in their Raksuran forms, taking no precautions to avoid being seen other than "well, it's dark and/or foggy, nobody will notice"! Also, I can't quite figure out the part about Raksura not wearing shoes being a big deal, when Raksuran groundling forms already stand out as distinctly different from other groundling forms in the area- if the Magister has seen live Raksura in groundling form, he'll recognize them as Raksura because the Raksuran groundling form is distinctly different from other groundlings who live in the area.
It seems to me that there's still an inconsistency in the books where Wells treats Raksuran groundling form as being like a universal "normal" groundling form able to blend in to groundling civilizations when from the groundlings we see it's no such thing...)
13kceccato
12: The "discrimflip" is one of the reasons I try to avoid most stories which feature a matriarchy. Rarely, if ever, have I read a sympathetically-depicted matriarchal society. The closest I've come was in Wells' The Wizard Hunters, and that matriarchy played a very small role in the book.
If a male writer creates a matriarchal society, 98% of the time, watch out: what you'll get is a nightmarish vision of What Will Happen If You Put "Them" In Charge. Female writers' motives for creating unpleasant matriarchies are slightly more complex -- Let's See How You Like It. Yet in both cases, what we see is much the same: women abusing authority, as if they inherently cannot be trusted with it.
At least the vision of matriarchy presented in the Raksura books is a little more complex and not one-dimensionally oppressive. Wise and good female rulers do appear. My biggest problem with the queens, as I think more about it, is their inevitable, invariable hostility toward each other. It would seem that no matter what the blood tie between them -- sisters, mother-daughter -- two queens absolutely, positively cannot be friends. There can be no regard or sympathy between them. Female friendships aren't entirely absent from the Raksura world, though we can't get a very close look at them since Moon is our protagonist; queen Jade and warrior Balm are close friends, and female Arbora befriend each other. But apparently, no two queens can get along, at all, no matter how sympathetic one or both of them might be.
If a male writer creates a matriarchal society, 98% of the time, watch out: what you'll get is a nightmarish vision of What Will Happen If You Put "Them" In Charge. Female writers' motives for creating unpleasant matriarchies are slightly more complex -- Let's See How You Like It. Yet in both cases, what we see is much the same: women abusing authority, as if they inherently cannot be trusted with it.
At least the vision of matriarchy presented in the Raksura books is a little more complex and not one-dimensionally oppressive. Wise and good female rulers do appear. My biggest problem with the queens, as I think more about it, is their inevitable, invariable hostility toward each other. It would seem that no matter what the blood tie between them -- sisters, mother-daughter -- two queens absolutely, positively cannot be friends. There can be no regard or sympathy between them. Female friendships aren't entirely absent from the Raksura world, though we can't get a very close look at them since Moon is our protagonist; queen Jade and warrior Balm are close friends, and female Arbora befriend each other. But apparently, no two queens can get along, at all, no matter how sympathetic one or both of them might be.
14jjwilson61
>13 kceccato: Female writers' motives for creating unpleasant matriarchies are slightly more complex -- Let's See How You Like It.
Couldn't you interpret that as You Can't Trust Anyone With Power instead? And I suspect that most books have an element of bad Matriarchy or Patriarchy because it's a source of conflict that's useful to the plot.
Couldn't you interpret that as You Can't Trust Anyone With Power instead? And I suspect that most books have an element of bad Matriarchy or Patriarchy because it's a source of conflict that's useful to the plot.
15Sakerfalcon
I've just got up to where Moon arrives at Opal Night and I had to force myself to put the book down and go to sleep. The world, characters and plot are all utterly fascinating.
17sandstone78
I thoroughly enjoyed this one! It was hard to put down, and while I think it brought Moon's story arc to a satisfying close, I'm glad to know that more stories are forthcoming. I was a little disappointed that the events in The Serpent Sea didn't really have any repercussions for anything, beyond possibly Chime's powers being discovered then and used again here I think, and the subplot with Moon thinking he was infertile really didn't go anywhere- it just seemed to get lost in the shuffle, to the extent I was surprised when it showed up again near the end. Back to The Serpent Sea, though, I really thought Rift might show up again at some point- the whole deal with him was just odd to me (I posted about this in the Serpent Sea thread, but fairly late.)
I was pleased to finally have a positive portrayal of a same-sex relationship with Moon and Chime mentioned in passing as sleeping together, that went a long way toward erasing the uncomfortable undertones in the earlier books, and will definitely help on rereading. I really liked the crossbreed characters, and was glad to see some sorely needed depth with them, and even a little bit with the Fell with the progenitor there at the end in the underwater fortress. I think there's more room to explore the Fell and their alien, destructive society in future works still for sure.
The end with the monster struck me as very slightly anticlimactic, possibly because I wasn't quite sure how it worked that the ancestors wanted the monster to suffer, but it had been put into a deep sleep instead and woken up? It seems like if it was sealed asleep it wouldn't be suffering, though, but it seemed so easy to kill that the ancestors not knowing how to kill it makes no sense. Maybe I read that part too fast and missed or misread something?
Given the deaths of the teacher (Petal?) in The Cloud Roads and Flower in The Serpent Sea, I really expected Delin to end up dead at the end of this one, and was bracing myself- and very thankful that didn't happen!
What are your feelings about the series as a whole, everyone? I think it started off a little rocky, but was definitely a worthwhile read- The Siren Depths was definitely the standout book to me.
>16 kceccato: I saw your review before you finished, and tried to pay attention to Lithe's role in the climax- it seemed to me that she did have a critical part to play in the action, dissolving the barrier with her mentors' powers so the water could rush in and destroy the creature? I would like to see more of the crossbreeds in general, though, and hope they show back up in future works. I'm not sure whether I'm more eager to revisit Indigo Cloud or Opal Night, actually.
I was pleased to finally have a positive portrayal of a same-sex relationship with Moon and Chime mentioned in passing as sleeping together, that went a long way toward erasing the uncomfortable undertones in the earlier books, and will definitely help on rereading. I really liked the crossbreed characters, and was glad to see some sorely needed depth with them, and even a little bit with the Fell with the progenitor there at the end in the underwater fortress. I think there's more room to explore the Fell and their alien, destructive society in future works still for sure.
The end with the monster struck me as very slightly anticlimactic, possibly because I wasn't quite sure how it worked that the ancestors wanted the monster to suffer, but it had been put into a deep sleep instead and woken up? It seems like if it was sealed asleep it wouldn't be suffering, though, but it seemed so easy to kill that the ancestors not knowing how to kill it makes no sense. Maybe I read that part too fast and missed or misread something?
Given the deaths of the teacher (Petal?) in The Cloud Roads and Flower in The Serpent Sea, I really expected Delin to end up dead at the end of this one, and was bracing myself- and very thankful that didn't happen!
What are your feelings about the series as a whole, everyone? I think it started off a little rocky, but was definitely a worthwhile read- The Siren Depths was definitely the standout book to me.
>16 kceccato: I saw your review before you finished, and tried to pay attention to Lithe's role in the climax- it seemed to me that she did have a critical part to play in the action, dissolving the barrier with her mentors' powers so the water could rush in and destroy the creature? I would like to see more of the crossbreeds in general, though, and hope they show back up in future works. I'm not sure whether I'm more eager to revisit Indigo Cloud or Opal Night, actually.
18Sakerfalcon
I found the resolution to the main plot to be rather rushed, and the big bad kinda came out of nowhere - no connection to anything else that had come before. But still, this was the best of the trilogy (none of which were less than good) and for me provided satisfying answers to questions raised in the first book.
I was very pleased that the backstory of Moon, his "mother" and "siblings" was as I had hoped and not what Stone suggested in The cloud roads. I too liked the acceptance of same-sex relationships and, especially, the positive portrayal of crossbreed characters. It was nice to see Delin back, even in a small role, and to meet some other groundling races. I do think that Malachite turned out to be awesome, if cranky - a bad enemy but an excellent ally. I have to admit that some of the politics relating to the different bloodlines at Opal Night were a bit confusing to me, but I still enjoyed exploring the colony, and also the glimpse we got of Emerald Twilight.
I did enjoy the first book, perhaps because having read some of Wells' other books I trusted her to ultimately resolve the things that seemed problematic - as indeed she did. The serpent sea felt like it went off on a tangent - an enjoyable one but it ignored the things I wanted to see. Fortunately The siren depths got back on track and now I am eagerly awaiting the novellas. The Three Worlds is a fascinating creation, not least because of its diversity of non-human races and the unique flora, fauna and habitats.
I realised that I have now read all the books by Wells that I own. Now I need to work through the stacks of unread titles by some other authors - Freda Warrington, Melissa Scott, Catherynne Valente among others.
I was very pleased that the backstory of Moon, his "mother" and "siblings" was as I had hoped and not what Stone suggested in The cloud roads. I too liked the acceptance of same-sex relationships and, especially, the positive portrayal of crossbreed characters. It was nice to see Delin back, even in a small role, and to meet some other groundling races. I do think that Malachite turned out to be awesome, if cranky - a bad enemy but an excellent ally. I have to admit that some of the politics relating to the different bloodlines at Opal Night were a bit confusing to me, but I still enjoyed exploring the colony, and also the glimpse we got of Emerald Twilight.
I did enjoy the first book, perhaps because having read some of Wells' other books I trusted her to ultimately resolve the things that seemed problematic - as indeed she did. The serpent sea felt like it went off on a tangent - an enjoyable one but it ignored the things I wanted to see. Fortunately The siren depths got back on track and now I am eagerly awaiting the novellas. The Three Worlds is a fascinating creation, not least because of its diversity of non-human races and the unique flora, fauna and habitats.
I realised that I have now read all the books by Wells that I own. Now I need to work through the stacks of unread titles by some other authors - Freda Warrington, Melissa Scott, Catherynne Valente among others.
