Tutored read: Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister
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1lyzard
“All women together ought to let flowers fall upon the tomb of Aphra Behn…for it was she who earned them the right to speak their minds.”
— Virginia Woolf
2lyzard
Hello, all! Welcome to the tutored read of Aphra Behn's Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister.
For those of you who may not be familiar with the concept, a tutored read is a slightly more specialised kind of group read, which allows for a slower pace if needed and gives an opportunity for detailed questions and answers. The read is led by the tutor and the nominated "tutee", but anyone can ask whatever questions they need to. The only "rule" is that other participants do not post questions beyond where the tutee indicates that they are up to, in order to avoid spoilers, and that when asking a question the chapter* to which it refers is indicated in bold at the beginning of the post.
(*Of course, this book doesn't have chapters as such, so we will have to sort out an alternative!)
When Heather (souloftherose) and I were first discussing reading this book together, I suggested a tutored read for two reasons. Firstly, 17th-century prose can be difficult if you are unaccustomed to it; words held different meanings, and there were few hard rules of spelling, grammar or punctuation (although sometimes this aspect of the text is "cleaned up" in modern editions). Secondly, Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And A Sister is not only based upon a notorious scandal of the 1680s, which Behn's readers would have recognised at once, but it also deals very deeply with the explosive political situation of the time. Without an understanding of both of those aspects of the story, the text can be a bit impenetrable.
Just for the record, I am certainly no expert in any of this myself! I fell into this area more or less by accident: I have a blog project where I'm looking at the development of the English novel from the 1660s onwards, and I've ended up having to take a crash-course in 17th-century history and politics in order to understand a lot of the period's fiction, which was heavily politicised.
Another important thing to understand about Love-Letters is that it is *not* "a novel" as such. It is actually three distinct short novels on the same theme that were originally published individually. They were first bundled together in a single volume in 1693, four years after Aphra Behn's death. At that time the three volumes retained their individual titles; in subsequent editions, published in the first decades of the 18th century, the individual titles were omitted and the book described simply as being "in three parts". And this is how modern editions, including the Virago edition, also treat the text.
The three shorts novels that comprise Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister are:
Love-Letters Between A Noble-Man And His Sister (1684)
Love Letters Between A Noble Man And His Sister. Mixt With The History Of Their Adventures. The Second Part By The Same Hand (1685)
The Amours Of Philander And Silvia: Being The Third And Last Part Of The Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister (1687)
Now---as I have indicated, 17th-century prose can be tough, and is something of an acquired taste. Furthermore, bundling these three novels together creates quite a lengthy work. Consequently, no-one should feel "obliged" to go the distance if they're struggling or they just don't like it. I would therefore suggest that we work through to the end of the first volume and then see whether people: (i) want to press on; (ii) want to take a break before tackling Volume 2; or (iii) want to quit. This may be a tutored read, but it isn't school, and everyone is quite free to throw in the towel if they decide that this book isn't for them. :)
For those of you who may not be familiar with the concept, a tutored read is a slightly more specialised kind of group read, which allows for a slower pace if needed and gives an opportunity for detailed questions and answers. The read is led by the tutor and the nominated "tutee", but anyone can ask whatever questions they need to. The only "rule" is that other participants do not post questions beyond where the tutee indicates that they are up to, in order to avoid spoilers, and that when asking a question the chapter* to which it refers is indicated in bold at the beginning of the post.
(*Of course, this book doesn't have chapters as such, so we will have to sort out an alternative!)
When Heather (souloftherose) and I were first discussing reading this book together, I suggested a tutored read for two reasons. Firstly, 17th-century prose can be difficult if you are unaccustomed to it; words held different meanings, and there were few hard rules of spelling, grammar or punctuation (although sometimes this aspect of the text is "cleaned up" in modern editions). Secondly, Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And A Sister is not only based upon a notorious scandal of the 1680s, which Behn's readers would have recognised at once, but it also deals very deeply with the explosive political situation of the time. Without an understanding of both of those aspects of the story, the text can be a bit impenetrable.
Just for the record, I am certainly no expert in any of this myself! I fell into this area more or less by accident: I have a blog project where I'm looking at the development of the English novel from the 1660s onwards, and I've ended up having to take a crash-course in 17th-century history and politics in order to understand a lot of the period's fiction, which was heavily politicised.
Another important thing to understand about Love-Letters is that it is *not* "a novel" as such. It is actually three distinct short novels on the same theme that were originally published individually. They were first bundled together in a single volume in 1693, four years after Aphra Behn's death. At that time the three volumes retained their individual titles; in subsequent editions, published in the first decades of the 18th century, the individual titles were omitted and the book described simply as being "in three parts". And this is how modern editions, including the Virago edition, also treat the text.
The three shorts novels that comprise Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister are:
Love-Letters Between A Noble-Man And His Sister (1684)
Love Letters Between A Noble Man And His Sister. Mixt With The History Of Their Adventures. The Second Part By The Same Hand (1685)
The Amours Of Philander And Silvia: Being The Third And Last Part Of The Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister (1687)
Now---as I have indicated, 17th-century prose can be tough, and is something of an acquired taste. Furthermore, bundling these three novels together creates quite a lengthy work. Consequently, no-one should feel "obliged" to go the distance if they're struggling or they just don't like it. I would therefore suggest that we work through to the end of the first volume and then see whether people: (i) want to press on; (ii) want to take a break before tackling Volume 2; or (iii) want to quit. This may be a tutored read, but it isn't school, and everyone is quite free to throw in the towel if they decide that this book isn't for them. :)
3lyzard
Background to Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister:
The early English novel:
The English novel, as we would understand it, emerged in the second half of the 17th century. The English were a bit slow in this respect: other countries, particularly Spain and France, had adopted fiction as an acceptable form of literature quite early, but in England it seems that the Puritan streak made people uncomfortable with outright fiction: telling stories = telling lies. Most early English fiction is allegorical; that was okay, because it was not pretending to be "real" or "true". When people began writing fiction as such, the stories tended to be first-person accounts of adventures that claimed to be true, whether they were or not (and the vast majority were not). People were wary of fiction that admitted to being wholly made up. This tendency persisted well into the 18th century, with devices such as the "found manuscript" or the author posing as the editor of a set of letters remaining a common way of working around the discomfort of fiction.
During the 1680s, two forms of "true" stories were hugely popular in England. It became common practice to publish people's letters---particularly the correspondence of prominent public figures. This form of literature was so very popular, that many publishers began hiring writers to fake sets of letters, which were then supposedly "discovered" in the wake of someone's death. (Aphra Behn herself was a victim of this.)
Publishing letters was another form of literature that got its start outside of England, and in the late 1660s a short set of letters were published in France as the Lettres Portugaises. These subsequently appeared in England as Five Love-Letters From A Nun To A Cavalier, and are known today as The Love Letters Of A Portuguese Nun. These letters, supposedly written by a nun to the French officer with whom she had had an affair, and who had abandoned her, were a stunning success across Europe; arguments persist to this day over whether they are authentic or a clever literary ruse, and in either case, who wrote them. Either way, they kicked off a secondary stream of published letters: in contrast to the "public" sort of letter, dealing with current events and politics, private letters dealing with personal, intimate matters became popular; though these, even more than the public letters, tended to be faked.
Meanwhile, the complicated and dangerous political situation in England that coincided with the reign of Charles II saw the roman à clef, the "romance with a key", become popular. Stories dealing with the political situation, and often violently attacking various public figures including the royal family, were set in a different country and presented real people in disguise, as a way of getting around the censor. Writers from both sides of the political divide used this method to publish propaganda which would have had serious legal ramifications if written straight.
For more than twenty years, from the 1660s through the 1680s, these two forms of "true fiction" ran in parallel in English publishing. Then, in 1684, Aphra Behn had a stroke of genius: she blended together the two literary forms, the (supposedly) private letters made public and the political roman à clef, and in doing so invented the epistolary novel.
Aphra Behn:
Aphra Behn is a remarkable literary figure. She was the first English woman to support herself as a professional writer, and she had success as a poet, a playwright, a translator and as a writer of fiction. It infuriates me that there are still people who want to underrate her achievements, and leave her out of the timeline of the English novel. (Apologies in advance: I have a bee in my bonnet about this, and tend to bang on about it much more than I should!)
Aphra was a poet by choice, but unfortunately poetry didn't pay any better in the late 17th century than it does now, so to earn her living she had to turn to other forms of writing. She began writing plays and had considerable popular success. However, as with actresses, there was an automatic assumption that any woman connected with the stage was immoral, and she was repeatedly attacked and slandered for her work. In the mid-1680s, with the political situation in England becoming more and more dangerous, new plays were no longer being commissioned, and Aphra had to find yet another way to earn some money. From 1684 onwards she published a series of short fictions that were either based on real events or claimed to be.
Aphra Behn was, politically, a committed Tory---meaning that she supported the traditional rule by monarchy and deplored contemporary attempts to limit the powers of the king. Like the vast majority of English writers of her time, when she started writing fiction she used it as a way of expressing her political beliefs and supporting her side of the political argument. Part of the brilliance of the first volume of Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister is her recognition that the true story on which she based it fed into both of the English reading's public's main passions, sex and politics: the scandal in question was even more scandalous for crossing the political divide.
History and politics:
Briefly---or as briefly as I can---when Charles II was invited back to the throne of England in 1660, it was on the understanding that he would rule a Protestant country as a Protestant. Charles may have been a closet Catholic (the jury is still out on that point), but he was a pragmatist and wanted to be king, therefore he presented himself as a Protestant. However, Charles had no legitimate heir; the heir to the throne was his brother, James, who was Catholic. This became a matter of increasing contention, and there were attempts made to force Charles to exclude James from the succession in favour either of James' daughters, Mary and Anne, who had been raised Protestant, or in favour of Charles' illegitimate son*, James Scott, the Duke of Monmouth ("the Exclusion Crisis"). These failed, and when Charles died early in 1685 he was succeeded by James. There was an attempt to overthrow James in the early months of his reign ("the Monmouth Rebellion"), which was a disastrous failure.
(*It is extremely likely that Monmouth was not Charles' biological son at all, but Charles recognised him as such.)
During this time there was violent conflict between the Tories, who supported the monarchy and believed in the divine right of kings, and who therefore supported Charles and James even though the latter was a Catholic, and a new political party known as the Whigs, who (in the earliest instance of "an opposition" as we would now understand it) fought to reduce the power of the monarchy and increase the powers of Parliament, and tried but failed to keep James off the throne.
The scandal:
The true story at the heart of Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister is the affair between, and subsequent elopement of, Forde, Lord Grey of Werke, and the Lady Henrietta Berkeley, the seventeen-year-old daughter of the Earl of Berkeley, who also happened to be the sister of Grey's wife, Lady Mary. Technically, therefore, under the laws of the time, the affair was incestuous.
The Berkeleys were passionate Tories and supporters of the monarchy, while Lord Grey was a Whig involved with the attempts to put Monmouth on the throne.
The two were lovers for a year before Henrietta's family discovered what was going on and "imprisoned" her at a family estate in the country. Henrietta managed to escape, and she and Grey lived together secretly in London. The matter became public when the Earl posted a series of advertisements in the London Gazette:
“Whereas the Lady Henrietta Berkeley has been absent from her Fathers house since the 20th of August last past, and is not yet known where she is, nor whether she is alive or dead; These are to give notice, That whoever shall find her, so that she may be brought back to her Father, the Earl of Berkeley, they shall have 200 Pounds Reward. She is a young Lady of a fair Complexion, fair Haired, full Breasted, and indifferent tall.”
The Earl later brought charges against Grey - that he “…did conspire the ruin and utter destruction of the lady Henrietta Berkeley, daughter of the right honourable George earl of Berkeley…and solicited her to commit whoredom and adultery with my lord Grey, who was before married to the lady Mary, another daughter of the earl of Berkeley, and sister to the lady Henrietta…”. During the trial Henrietta claimed that she had married William Turner, a servant of Grey's, and was therefore no longer subject to her father's authority, but Grey and the servants who helped him elope with her were convicted anyway. Setting a pattern for the rest of Grey's life, he bought his way out of trouble while his servants went to jail.
Subsequently, Grey involved himself in a plot against Charles and James ("the Rye House Plot") which failed, and he was convicted of treason and sentenced to death. However, before his execution he escaped from the Tower of London, probably by bribing his guards, and when he fled England he took Henrietta with him.
These events took place across 1681 - 1683, and in 1684, Aphra Behn published Love-Letters Between A Noble-Man And His Sister.
The early English novel:
The English novel, as we would understand it, emerged in the second half of the 17th century. The English were a bit slow in this respect: other countries, particularly Spain and France, had adopted fiction as an acceptable form of literature quite early, but in England it seems that the Puritan streak made people uncomfortable with outright fiction: telling stories = telling lies. Most early English fiction is allegorical; that was okay, because it was not pretending to be "real" or "true". When people began writing fiction as such, the stories tended to be first-person accounts of adventures that claimed to be true, whether they were or not (and the vast majority were not). People were wary of fiction that admitted to being wholly made up. This tendency persisted well into the 18th century, with devices such as the "found manuscript" or the author posing as the editor of a set of letters remaining a common way of working around the discomfort of fiction.
During the 1680s, two forms of "true" stories were hugely popular in England. It became common practice to publish people's letters---particularly the correspondence of prominent public figures. This form of literature was so very popular, that many publishers began hiring writers to fake sets of letters, which were then supposedly "discovered" in the wake of someone's death. (Aphra Behn herself was a victim of this.)
Publishing letters was another form of literature that got its start outside of England, and in the late 1660s a short set of letters were published in France as the Lettres Portugaises. These subsequently appeared in England as Five Love-Letters From A Nun To A Cavalier, and are known today as The Love Letters Of A Portuguese Nun. These letters, supposedly written by a nun to the French officer with whom she had had an affair, and who had abandoned her, were a stunning success across Europe; arguments persist to this day over whether they are authentic or a clever literary ruse, and in either case, who wrote them. Either way, they kicked off a secondary stream of published letters: in contrast to the "public" sort of letter, dealing with current events and politics, private letters dealing with personal, intimate matters became popular; though these, even more than the public letters, tended to be faked.
Meanwhile, the complicated and dangerous political situation in England that coincided with the reign of Charles II saw the roman à clef, the "romance with a key", become popular. Stories dealing with the political situation, and often violently attacking various public figures including the royal family, were set in a different country and presented real people in disguise, as a way of getting around the censor. Writers from both sides of the political divide used this method to publish propaganda which would have had serious legal ramifications if written straight.
For more than twenty years, from the 1660s through the 1680s, these two forms of "true fiction" ran in parallel in English publishing. Then, in 1684, Aphra Behn had a stroke of genius: she blended together the two literary forms, the (supposedly) private letters made public and the political roman à clef, and in doing so invented the epistolary novel.
Aphra Behn:
Aphra Behn is a remarkable literary figure. She was the first English woman to support herself as a professional writer, and she had success as a poet, a playwright, a translator and as a writer of fiction. It infuriates me that there are still people who want to underrate her achievements, and leave her out of the timeline of the English novel. (Apologies in advance: I have a bee in my bonnet about this, and tend to bang on about it much more than I should!)
Aphra was a poet by choice, but unfortunately poetry didn't pay any better in the late 17th century than it does now, so to earn her living she had to turn to other forms of writing. She began writing plays and had considerable popular success. However, as with actresses, there was an automatic assumption that any woman connected with the stage was immoral, and she was repeatedly attacked and slandered for her work. In the mid-1680s, with the political situation in England becoming more and more dangerous, new plays were no longer being commissioned, and Aphra had to find yet another way to earn some money. From 1684 onwards she published a series of short fictions that were either based on real events or claimed to be.
Aphra Behn was, politically, a committed Tory---meaning that she supported the traditional rule by monarchy and deplored contemporary attempts to limit the powers of the king. Like the vast majority of English writers of her time, when she started writing fiction she used it as a way of expressing her political beliefs and supporting her side of the political argument. Part of the brilliance of the first volume of Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister is her recognition that the true story on which she based it fed into both of the English reading's public's main passions, sex and politics: the scandal in question was even more scandalous for crossing the political divide.
History and politics:
Briefly---or as briefly as I can---when Charles II was invited back to the throne of England in 1660, it was on the understanding that he would rule a Protestant country as a Protestant. Charles may have been a closet Catholic (the jury is still out on that point), but he was a pragmatist and wanted to be king, therefore he presented himself as a Protestant. However, Charles had no legitimate heir; the heir to the throne was his brother, James, who was Catholic. This became a matter of increasing contention, and there were attempts made to force Charles to exclude James from the succession in favour either of James' daughters, Mary and Anne, who had been raised Protestant, or in favour of Charles' illegitimate son*, James Scott, the Duke of Monmouth ("the Exclusion Crisis"). These failed, and when Charles died early in 1685 he was succeeded by James. There was an attempt to overthrow James in the early months of his reign ("the Monmouth Rebellion"), which was a disastrous failure.
(*It is extremely likely that Monmouth was not Charles' biological son at all, but Charles recognised him as such.)
During this time there was violent conflict between the Tories, who supported the monarchy and believed in the divine right of kings, and who therefore supported Charles and James even though the latter was a Catholic, and a new political party known as the Whigs, who (in the earliest instance of "an opposition" as we would now understand it) fought to reduce the power of the monarchy and increase the powers of Parliament, and tried but failed to keep James off the throne.
The scandal:
The true story at the heart of Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister is the affair between, and subsequent elopement of, Forde, Lord Grey of Werke, and the Lady Henrietta Berkeley, the seventeen-year-old daughter of the Earl of Berkeley, who also happened to be the sister of Grey's wife, Lady Mary. Technically, therefore, under the laws of the time, the affair was incestuous.
The Berkeleys were passionate Tories and supporters of the monarchy, while Lord Grey was a Whig involved with the attempts to put Monmouth on the throne.
The two were lovers for a year before Henrietta's family discovered what was going on and "imprisoned" her at a family estate in the country. Henrietta managed to escape, and she and Grey lived together secretly in London. The matter became public when the Earl posted a series of advertisements in the London Gazette:
“Whereas the Lady Henrietta Berkeley has been absent from her Fathers house since the 20th of August last past, and is not yet known where she is, nor whether she is alive or dead; These are to give notice, That whoever shall find her, so that she may be brought back to her Father, the Earl of Berkeley, they shall have 200 Pounds Reward. She is a young Lady of a fair Complexion, fair Haired, full Breasted, and indifferent tall.”
The Earl later brought charges against Grey - that he “…did conspire the ruin and utter destruction of the lady Henrietta Berkeley, daughter of the right honourable George earl of Berkeley…and solicited her to commit whoredom and adultery with my lord Grey, who was before married to the lady Mary, another daughter of the earl of Berkeley, and sister to the lady Henrietta…”. During the trial Henrietta claimed that she had married William Turner, a servant of Grey's, and was therefore no longer subject to her father's authority, but Grey and the servants who helped him elope with her were convicted anyway. Setting a pattern for the rest of Grey's life, he bought his way out of trouble while his servants went to jail.
Subsequently, Grey involved himself in a plot against Charles and James ("the Rye House Plot") which failed, and he was convicted of treason and sentenced to death. However, before his execution he escaped from the Tower of London, probably by bribing his guards, and when he fled England he took Henrietta with him.
These events took place across 1681 - 1683, and in 1684, Aphra Behn published Love-Letters Between A Noble-Man And His Sister.
4lyzard
Phew!!
Sorry about that, people, but without a good grasp of the background you do miss an awful lot of what is going on in this book!
The other thing to mention is that Aphra Behn does use the "found manuscript" device in the first volume, and she repositions the story as taking place in France in the 1620s ("the Huguenot Rebellions", aka "the Rohan Wars").
This was not meant to actually fool anyone, it was simply a way of protecting the author. At the time of the publication of Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister, everyone in England would have recognised who the disguised characters were meant to be, and which were the real events being referred to, so unlike many romans à clef of the time this book doesn't carry an actual key. Therefore, I'll set up a post explaining who and what is being referred to, and add to it as we move through the book so it is there for a reference.
Sorry about that, people, but without a good grasp of the background you do miss an awful lot of what is going on in this book!
The other thing to mention is that Aphra Behn does use the "found manuscript" device in the first volume, and she repositions the story as taking place in France in the 1620s ("the Huguenot Rebellions", aka "the Rohan Wars").
This was not meant to actually fool anyone, it was simply a way of protecting the author. At the time of the publication of Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister, everyone in England would have recognised who the disguised characters were meant to be, and which were the real events being referred to, so unlike many romans à clef of the time this book doesn't carry an actual key. Therefore, I'll set up a post explaining who and what is being referred to, and add to it as we move through the book so it is there for a reference.
5lyzard
Key to Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister:
Characters:
"Philander" = Forde, Lord Grey of Werke; a prominent Whig and a supporter of the Duke of Monmouth
"Sylvia" = Lady Henrietta Berkeley, sister-in-law of Lord Grey
"Myrtilla" - Lady Mary Grey, wife of Lord Grey and sister to Henrietta; possibly the mistress of the Duke of Monmouth
"Cesario, Prince of Condé" = James Scott, Duke of Monmouth, the illegitimate son of Charles II; a Protestant
"Brilliard" = William Turner, who Henrietta claimed to have married to free herself from her father's authority
"Beralti" = the Earl of Berkeley, father to Lady Henrietta and Lady Mary
Other references:
"The rebellion of the Protestant Huguenot" = the Rye House Plot, an attempt to assassinate both Charles II and his brother, James.
Characters:
"Philander" = Forde, Lord Grey of Werke; a prominent Whig and a supporter of the Duke of Monmouth
"Sylvia" = Lady Henrietta Berkeley, sister-in-law of Lord Grey
"Myrtilla" - Lady Mary Grey, wife of Lord Grey and sister to Henrietta; possibly the mistress of the Duke of Monmouth
"Cesario, Prince of Condé" = James Scott, Duke of Monmouth, the illegitimate son of Charles II; a Protestant
"Brilliard" = William Turner, who Henrietta claimed to have married to free herself from her father's authority
"Beralti" = the Earl of Berkeley, father to Lady Henrietta and Lady Mary
Other references:
"The rebellion of the Protestant Huguenot" = the Rye House Plot, an attempt to assassinate both Charles II and his brother, James.
6lyzard
All right---I think we're ready to make a start on the actual book---which might seem shorter to you than my introduction!
Before we do start, can I ask what text everyone is using? If we are all using the 1987 Virago edition, we can position ourselves in the text by page number, otherwise we will need people to list the first few words of the letters being discussed.
Before we do start, can I ask what text everyone is using? If we are all using the 1987 Virago edition, we can position ourselves in the text by page number, otherwise we will need people to list the first few words of the letters being discussed.
7lauralkeet
Hi Liz! Thank you so much for the background posts on this book. I started it a couple of days ago, mostly because I had nothing else to read until I could get to the library and pick up a book I'd requested. I've read about 40 pages and it's been rather slow going, but then I've also had a hellishly busy work week.
I like the approach you suggested we take, and am happy to read this at a slower pace in order to really "get" it I've done that with the first two volumes of Proust (reading ~10-15 pages/day), and it's worked well to have another book on the go at the same time (something I don't normally do).
I'm reading the Virago edition.
I like the approach you suggested we take, and am happy to read this at a slower pace in order to really "get" it I've done that with the first two volumes of Proust (reading ~10-15 pages/day), and it's worked well to have another book on the go at the same time (something I don't normally do).
I'm reading the Virago edition.
9rainpebble
Hello Liz. I too appreciate all you have put into preparing us for this read. My edition is the 1987 Virago. I most likely won't begin for a couple of days. Need to get my house in order.
I do have a quick question. Regarding Charles' illegitimate son*, James Scott, the Duke of Monmouth, was Monmouth the supposed son of one Lucy Walter?
I am looking forward to reading Behn in this type of group read. Thank you.
belva
I do have a quick question. Regarding Charles' illegitimate son*, James Scott, the Duke of Monmouth, was Monmouth the supposed son of one Lucy Walter?
I am looking forward to reading Behn in this type of group read. Thank you.
belva
10lyzard
Great to have you here, Belva! There's no hurry about the pace of your read - go at your own speed and ask questions if / when you need to.
Yes, Monmouth was the son of Lucy Walter. The timing of the affair was a bit weird and it was widely suspected that Charles was not the real father. I believe some DNA research done lately suggests that he was after all, so possibly it was a premature birth that caused the suspicion; though certainly Lucy Walter was involved with other men and Charles couldn't have been sure. At the time he accepted paternity he had little hope of being restored to the English throne, and could never have imagined the long-term ramifications of his acknowledgement.
Yes, Monmouth was the son of Lucy Walter. The timing of the affair was a bit weird and it was widely suspected that Charles was not the real father. I believe some DNA research done lately suggests that he was after all, so possibly it was a premature birth that caused the suspicion; though certainly Lucy Walter was involved with other men and Charles couldn't have been sure. At the time he accepted paternity he had little hope of being restored to the English throne, and could never have imagined the long-term ramifications of his acknowledgement.
11CDVicarage
I've got the Project Gutenberg version on my kindle but if you give the first few words of the letter being referred to as well as the page number I'm sure I'll be able to follow. I'd love a Virago copy.
12souloftherose
Hi Liz. Thanks so much for the detailed introductions and background. I've got the Virago edition and will make a start today. I'll post the first sentence of each letter as well as the page number so that hopefully everyone reading along can keep track of where we are. I'm not sure I've ever read a roman a clef before (or if I have then I didn't realise I was) and I definitely haven't read anything from the 17th century before.
13lyzard
Welcome, Kerry! Lovely to have you join us - no trouble to indicate where we're up to with the opening words of each letter.
Hi, Heather! You're certainly plunging into the deep end! :)
Hi, Heather! You're certainly plunging into the deep end! :)
14lyzard
Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister opens with an "Argument", which, while it purports to give an overview of the story to follow, in fact would have served to alert contemporary readers to the disguises being used within the story. Most of our false names and some of our false events are mentioned in the Argument, so I will work through them in the Key above.
15lyzard
Fun fact: Aphra Behn's choice of "Philander" as a name for her anti-hero is the origin of the expression "to philander", to treat sexual relationships lightly, to pursue a number of different women.
16BeyondEdenRock
I have the Virago edition, and I've always loved the idea of reading it, but it has scared me a little. So I'd love to read with you.
17souloftherose
And kicking off:
The Argument
p1-2 of VMC edition, opening sentence: 'In the time of the rebellion of the true Protestant Huguenot in Paris,...'
>5 lyzard: Liz, thank you for the key - my first question was going to be about the Protestant Huguenot rebellion :-)
So, 17th century prose. I ended up making some notes trying to summarise the Argument in order to understand it. Here is what I got:
Philander loved Myrtilla
Myrtilla loved Cesario
Myrtilla consented to marry Philander (why?)
Philander grew tired of Myrtilla (because she still loved Cesario)
Philander loved Myrtilla's sister, Sylvia
Philander and Sylvia run away
They are about to be apprehended so Sylvia marries a cadet of Philander's for form's sake
Philander was taken prisoner (mixed up with Huguenot rebellion) but escaped and ran away with Sylvia (again)
Questions:
1. Did I miss anything?
2. 'till being found out and like to be apprehended, (one for the rape, the other for the flight) she is forced to marry a cadet, a creature of Philander's'
Does rape mean what we would think of as seduction? Is cadet a military term or a serving man? Why did Sylvia have to marry the cadet and who 'forced' her?
3. 'still the League went forward, and all things were ready for a war in Paris;'
What was the League? Does this relate to the Huguenot rebellion?
The Argument
p1-2 of VMC edition, opening sentence: 'In the time of the rebellion of the true Protestant Huguenot in Paris,...'
>5 lyzard: Liz, thank you for the key - my first question was going to be about the Protestant Huguenot rebellion :-)
So, 17th century prose. I ended up making some notes trying to summarise the Argument in order to understand it. Here is what I got:
Philander loved Myrtilla
Myrtilla loved Cesario
Myrtilla consented to marry Philander (why?)
Philander grew tired of Myrtilla (because she still loved Cesario)
Philander loved Myrtilla's sister, Sylvia
Philander and Sylvia run away
They are about to be apprehended so Sylvia marries a cadet of Philander's for form's sake
Philander was taken prisoner (mixed up with Huguenot rebellion) but escaped and ran away with Sylvia (again)
Questions:
1. Did I miss anything?
2. 'till being found out and like to be apprehended, (one for the rape, the other for the flight) she is forced to marry a cadet, a creature of Philander's'
Does rape mean what we would think of as seduction? Is cadet a military term or a serving man? Why did Sylvia have to marry the cadet and who 'forced' her?
3. 'still the League went forward, and all things were ready for a war in Paris;'
What was the League? Does this relate to the Huguenot rebellion?
18souloftherose
First letter p3 of VMC edition, opening sentence: 'Though I parted from you resolved to obey your impossible commands...'
4. 'after a thousand conflicts between love and honour, I found the god (too mighty for the idol) reign absolute monarch in my soul, and soon banished that tyrant hence.'
I read this several times and I'm still lost. Who or what is the god, the idol and the tyrant? Is one love, one honour and one Sylvia?
5. 'Sylvia came in view! her irresistible Idea'
Does idea mean image?
6. 'her dress all negligent'
I don't think he means that she hadn't put the dress on properly....
7. 'let us love like the first race of men, nearest allied to God, promiscuously they loved, and possessed, father and daughter, brother and sister met, and reaped the joys of love without control, and counted it religious coupling, and 'twas encouraged too by heaven itself'
What is Philander referring to here?
4. 'after a thousand conflicts between love and honour, I found the god (too mighty for the idol) reign absolute monarch in my soul, and soon banished that tyrant hence.'
I read this several times and I'm still lost. Who or what is the god, the idol and the tyrant? Is one love, one honour and one Sylvia?
5. 'Sylvia came in view! her irresistible Idea'
Does idea mean image?
6. 'her dress all negligent'
I don't think he means that she hadn't put the dress on properly....
7. 'let us love like the first race of men, nearest allied to God, promiscuously they loved, and possessed, father and daughter, brother and sister met, and reaped the joys of love without control, and counted it religious coupling, and 'twas encouraged too by heaven itself'
What is Philander referring to here?
19lyzard
>16 BeyondEdenRock: Welcome, Jane! We are very pleased to have you with us. Feel free to ask questions if you need to.
20lyzard
>17 souloftherose:
And we are away! :)
The Argument
The Rye House Plot is a strange incident. It was a failed assassination plot, and because it failed it is hard to be sure who was involved or what was supposed to happen. Some historians believe that it was a "beat up" by Charles and James to rid themselves of their remaining Whig enemies. Either way, Monmouth was implicated but (presumably) allowed to escape to the Continent by Charles; three leading Whigs were executed and a fourth committed suicide. Lord Grey was condemned to death but escaped: he was an extremely rich man and had a long history of buying his way out of trouble.
1. No, that's about right!
Myrtilla wouldn't have had any choice about who she married. Sylvia will shortly be threatened with such a marriage.
The "cadet" is called Brilliard in the text. In reality he was William Turner, a hanger-on of Grey's. It is not clear whether he and Henrietta were in fact married as they claimed, and in fact Turner may have been married already.
2. Yes, "rape" in this sense means carried off; there is no implication of anything happening against Sylvia's will.
3. "League" means an association of plotters: they were in league against the king.
In fact (if we get to Volume 3), we will see how art and fiction collided. Aphra is using the Huguenot Rebellion as a smokescreen for the Rye House Plot and so makes a vague reference to preparations for war, but her suggestion ultimately came true in her own story in a very startling way.
And we are away! :)
The Argument
The Rye House Plot is a strange incident. It was a failed assassination plot, and because it failed it is hard to be sure who was involved or what was supposed to happen. Some historians believe that it was a "beat up" by Charles and James to rid themselves of their remaining Whig enemies. Either way, Monmouth was implicated but (presumably) allowed to escape to the Continent by Charles; three leading Whigs were executed and a fourth committed suicide. Lord Grey was condemned to death but escaped: he was an extremely rich man and had a long history of buying his way out of trouble.
1. No, that's about right!
Myrtilla wouldn't have had any choice about who she married. Sylvia will shortly be threatened with such a marriage.
The "cadet" is called Brilliard in the text. In reality he was William Turner, a hanger-on of Grey's. It is not clear whether he and Henrietta were in fact married as they claimed, and in fact Turner may have been married already.
2. Yes, "rape" in this sense means carried off; there is no implication of anything happening against Sylvia's will.
3. "League" means an association of plotters: they were in league against the king.
In fact (if we get to Volume 3), we will see how art and fiction collided. Aphra is using the Huguenot Rebellion as a smokescreen for the Rye House Plot and so makes a vague reference to preparations for war, but her suggestion ultimately came true in her own story in a very startling way.
21lyzard
>18 souloftherose:
First letter
4. "Love and honour" = the god and the idol. The implication is that honour (which would prevent Philander having anything to do with Sylvia) is an idol, a false god; while love, which compels Philander to pursue Sylvia, is the real god that should be worshipped.
The idol, honour, is "a tyrant" because it stops Philander doing what he wants; love is the "mighty god" which allows him to overcome the hindering thoughts of honour.
5. You raise a very important textual point here, and I want to say a bit more about it (see following).
6. No, it means she was in an attractive state of dishabille - not hiding much, in other words! :)
7. There are various references in the Old Testament to incestuous relationships that were not considered sinful; this tends to be "explained away" as God needing the planet populated and since there were only a handful of people to do it, incest had to be permitted. Once there were enough people, incest became a sin.
Philander is twisting this aspect of the Bible to argue that incest, i.e. a sexual affair between himself and Sylvia, would not be a sin, but rather living as God originally intended - "reap(ing) the joys of love without control".
First letter
4. "Love and honour" = the god and the idol. The implication is that honour (which would prevent Philander having anything to do with Sylvia) is an idol, a false god; while love, which compels Philander to pursue Sylvia, is the real god that should be worshipped.
The idol, honour, is "a tyrant" because it stops Philander doing what he wants; love is the "mighty god" which allows him to overcome the hindering thoughts of honour.
5. You raise a very important textual point here, and I want to say a bit more about it (see following).
6. No, it means she was in an attractive state of dishabille - not hiding much, in other words! :)
7. There are various references in the Old Testament to incestuous relationships that were not considered sinful; this tends to be "explained away" as God needing the planet populated and since there were only a handful of people to do it, incest had to be permitted. Once there were enough people, incest became a sin.
Philander is twisting this aspect of the Bible to argue that incest, i.e. a sexual affair between himself and Sylvia, would not be a sin, but rather living as God originally intended - "reap(ing) the joys of love without control".
22lyzard
There are a few important textual things to note about these early letters.
First, see how the written word is a powerful weapon. Philander is manipulating Sylvia through the power of his writing. Remember that he is an experienced, older man and she is an inexperienced seventeen-year-old girl. Watch the way his arguments and pleadings shift around as he tries to figure out what will work best on her.
Second, Heather raises the point about Philander referring to the "irresistible idea" of Sylvia. This is something that recurs again and again, so that we get the sense that the fantasy in his head is more powerful than the reality. It's the fantasy that fuels his letters.
Third, as we go forward, you might like to count the number of times that Philander claims that he is "dying of love", and how often relations between the sexes are compared to warfare or a battle - women exist to be "conquered", for example.
This power struggle between the sexes was something Aphra Behn returned to again and again in her writing. Love was a painful game in which one party won and the other lost. Most commonly, women were viewed as being under an obligation to let men have their way: if they didn't they were cold and cruel and could expect to see their spurned would-be lovers dead at their feet of unsatisfied passion; but if they did the game was over, and they could expect their lover to move on to the next target.
Most famously we have this exchange from Aphra's play, The Rover:
Wilmore: “Thy lodging, sweetheart, thy lodging, or I’m a dead man!”
Hellena: “Why must we be either guilty of fornication or murder if we converse with you men? And is there no difference between leave to love me, and leave to lie with me?”
First, see how the written word is a powerful weapon. Philander is manipulating Sylvia through the power of his writing. Remember that he is an experienced, older man and she is an inexperienced seventeen-year-old girl. Watch the way his arguments and pleadings shift around as he tries to figure out what will work best on her.
Second, Heather raises the point about Philander referring to the "irresistible idea" of Sylvia. This is something that recurs again and again, so that we get the sense that the fantasy in his head is more powerful than the reality. It's the fantasy that fuels his letters.
Third, as we go forward, you might like to count the number of times that Philander claims that he is "dying of love", and how often relations between the sexes are compared to warfare or a battle - women exist to be "conquered", for example.
This power struggle between the sexes was something Aphra Behn returned to again and again in her writing. Love was a painful game in which one party won and the other lost. Most commonly, women were viewed as being under an obligation to let men have their way: if they didn't they were cold and cruel and could expect to see their spurned would-be lovers dead at their feet of unsatisfied passion; but if they did the game was over, and they could expect their lover to move on to the next target.
Most famously we have this exchange from Aphra's play, The Rover:
Wilmore: “Thy lodging, sweetheart, thy lodging, or I’m a dead man!”
Hellena: “Why must we be either guilty of fornication or murder if we converse with you men? And is there no difference between leave to love me, and leave to lie with me?”
23macsbrains
I was just passing by and this thread had completely intrigued me! I love this idea of a tutored read, and even though I have never had much interest in history of this period, or of its literature, I have already been reading along and have learned so much!
I probably won't be speaking up, because by nature I just like to participate quietly, but I'd just like to thank @lyzard for taking the time out for tutoring us, and all the rest of you for making this thread already the most interesting conversation I've read in a while.
I probably won't be speaking up, because by nature I just like to participate quietly, but I'd just like to thank @lyzard for taking the time out for tutoring us, and all the rest of you for making this thread already the most interesting conversation I've read in a while.
24lyzard
Thank you! That's wonderful to hear. :)
Participating quietly is just fine, but I hope you will ask any questions you might have if you need to - that's what we're here for!
Participating quietly is just fine, but I hope you will ask any questions you might have if you need to - that's what we're here for!
25SleepySheep
Well I think I will try to join in on this one, mostly just reading along and checking in here - lyzard, thank you so much for all of the background info you've provided. I think this is a really amazing idea for a read-along or group read, however you see it; I often find myself with questions regarding books I'm reading and no idea how to pose them or who to pose them to.
I'm going to search for the book tomorrow at some local shops, hoping to find the Virago edition but not sure how much luck I'll have seeing as it's not a very big town - the library doesn't have any version of this book, unfortunately :(
I might look for an e-book version, either way I'll be watching the posts here. Thanks again for putting all of this together :)
I'm going to search for the book tomorrow at some local shops, hoping to find the Virago edition but not sure how much luck I'll have seeing as it's not a very big town - the library doesn't have any version of this book, unfortunately :(
I might look for an e-book version, either way I'll be watching the posts here. Thanks again for putting all of this together :)
26lyzard
Glad to have you! If you do want the Virago edition of Love-Letters and can't find one in a shop, there are copies available quite inexpensively online. (I know, I just ordered one---my academic library won't let me hang onto the copy I have permanently, I suppose!)
27rainpebble
>25 SleepySheep::
Rachel; Amazon has the Kindle version which you can download free but I do not know if it is the entire book. However their paperback version which does state to be volumes I - III can be ordered for $11.39 U.S. and received by the 16th, which is Tuesday. Good luck with the hunt.
Rachel; Amazon has the Kindle version which you can download free but I do not know if it is the entire book. However their paperback version which does state to be volumes I - III can be ordered for $11.39 U.S. and received by the 16th, which is Tuesday. Good luck with the hunt.
28SleepySheep
Thank you both - I did download the kindle version and after my search tomorrow I may go ahead and order it online. At least I can get started on it now with the ebook!
29lauralkeet
Very helpful explanations on the first letter, Liz. A correction to what I said earlier: I made it to page 58 before the tutored read began. I won't go any further for the time being; instead I will follow this thread, catch up on what I missed, and get into the rhythm & style of this book.
30souloftherose
Lovely to have so many others reading along! Please do chip in with questions/comments.
>21 lyzard: Love and honour - thank you, that helped me with one of the succeeding letters too.
>22 lyzard: Thanks for the explanation of the idea and the battle between the sexes. Even after only a few letters I wasn't feeling that Philander would be someone I would want to trust with anything important (like, you know, my virtue and reputation). Very interesting to hear this was a theme Behn revisited in her other works.
>21 lyzard: Love and honour - thank you, that helped me with one of the succeeding letters too.
>22 lyzard: Thanks for the explanation of the idea and the battle between the sexes. Even after only a few letters I wasn't feeling that Philander would be someone I would want to trust with anything important (like, you know, my virtue and reputation). Very interesting to hear this was a theme Behn revisited in her other works.
31souloftherose
No questions on the two letters from Sylvia to Philander.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p7 of VMC edition with 'Twice last night, oh unfaithful and unloving Sylvia!'
8. 'And she that would not venture fame, honour, and a marriage-vow for the glory of young Cesario's heart, merits not the noble victim;' p9
At first I thought he was saying that because Myrtilla wasn't willing to risk her marriage vows by having an affair with Cesario they shouldn't pity Myrtilla. But then later in the letter it sounds like Myrtilla is having an affair with Cesario. What does this passage refer to?
9. 'But for a wife! that stranger to my soul, and whom we wed for interest and necessity, - a wife, light, loose, unregarding property, who for a momentary appetite will expose her fame, without the noble end of loving on; she that will abuse my bed, and yet return again to the loathed conjugal embrace, back to the arms so hated, and even strong fancy of the absent youth beloved, cannot so much as render supportable.'
Is Philander complaining about wives who have an affair but pretend that nothing has happened to their husbands? Is this what Myrtilla is doing?
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p11 of VMC edition with 'When I had sealed the enclosed, Brilliard told me you were this morning come from Bellfont'
10. Brilliard is the aforementioned cadet. Where was Bellfont?
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p7 of VMC edition with 'Twice last night, oh unfaithful and unloving Sylvia!'
8. 'And she that would not venture fame, honour, and a marriage-vow for the glory of young Cesario's heart, merits not the noble victim;' p9
At first I thought he was saying that because Myrtilla wasn't willing to risk her marriage vows by having an affair with Cesario they shouldn't pity Myrtilla. But then later in the letter it sounds like Myrtilla is having an affair with Cesario. What does this passage refer to?
9. 'But for a wife! that stranger to my soul, and whom we wed for interest and necessity, - a wife, light, loose, unregarding property, who for a momentary appetite will expose her fame, without the noble end of loving on; she that will abuse my bed, and yet return again to the loathed conjugal embrace, back to the arms so hated, and even strong fancy of the absent youth beloved, cannot so much as render supportable.'
Is Philander complaining about wives who have an affair but pretend that nothing has happened to their husbands? Is this what Myrtilla is doing?
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p11 of VMC edition with 'When I had sealed the enclosed, Brilliard told me you were this morning come from Bellfont'
10. Brilliard is the aforementioned cadet. Where was Bellfont?
32Smiler69
Hello everyone! I've just read your full introduction Liz, but skipped over Heather's initial questions, as I'm just about to pull the novel from my stacks and attempt to catch up. I'll be reading from the 1987 Virago edition as well.
33lyzard
>31 souloftherose: Okay - a bit more background information - just a bit, I promise!
Around the time of Lord Grey's affair with Henrietta, it was widely rumoured that his wife, Lady Mary, was having an affair with the Duke of Monmouth. Obviously, since Grey was one of Monmouth's main supporters, this was a fairly weird situation---and it was suggested by some that Grey had pimped his wife out in order to get a hold over Monmouth. Some people thought things were even weirder than that---that in fact there was no affair, and that Grey had started the rumours of it himself to justify his behaviour with Henrietta (while also giving himself a hold over Monmouth, since he could pose as "injured" and claim that Monmouth owed him).
Behn makes use of this uncertainty and gossip here, since whatever did or did not go on between Lady Mary and Monmouth, in her text we have Philander using Myrtilla's supposed infidelity to convince Sylvia that neither one of them needs to feel bad about cheating.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p7 of VMC edition with 'Twice last night, oh unfaithful and unloving Sylvia!'
8. By that he means that since Myrtilla loved Cesario, she *ought* to have sex with him, even though it means violating her marriage-vows. Otherwise her love for him doesn't deserve the name.
9. Yes, or so Philander says.
Here Philander argues that Myrtilla doesn't have the courage of her love---she should have spurned him (Philander) and gloried in her love for Cesario. Instead she hid her affair by continuing to pretend love for Philander, and even having sex with him. Philander claims to be disgusted not by the affair, but the lies and pretence.
See how the real-life gossip is woven into the text here: Philander tells Sylvia that he knew all about Myrtilla's affair with Cesario and didn't care, because he (Philander) was already in love with her (Sylvia). He was even glad of it, since it freed him from any need to consider "honour".
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p11 of VMC edition with 'When I had sealed the enclosed, Brilliard told me you were this morning come from Bellfont'
10. Yes, Brilliard is the stand-in for William Turner, who may or may not have been married to Henrietta.
Bellfont is probably being used as a stand-in for The Durdans, the Berkeley family estate, which was situated near Epsom outside of London.
Around the time of Lord Grey's affair with Henrietta, it was widely rumoured that his wife, Lady Mary, was having an affair with the Duke of Monmouth. Obviously, since Grey was one of Monmouth's main supporters, this was a fairly weird situation---and it was suggested by some that Grey had pimped his wife out in order to get a hold over Monmouth. Some people thought things were even weirder than that---that in fact there was no affair, and that Grey had started the rumours of it himself to justify his behaviour with Henrietta (while also giving himself a hold over Monmouth, since he could pose as "injured" and claim that Monmouth owed him).
Behn makes use of this uncertainty and gossip here, since whatever did or did not go on between Lady Mary and Monmouth, in her text we have Philander using Myrtilla's supposed infidelity to convince Sylvia that neither one of them needs to feel bad about cheating.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p7 of VMC edition with 'Twice last night, oh unfaithful and unloving Sylvia!'
8. By that he means that since Myrtilla loved Cesario, she *ought* to have sex with him, even though it means violating her marriage-vows. Otherwise her love for him doesn't deserve the name.
9. Yes, or so Philander says.
Here Philander argues that Myrtilla doesn't have the courage of her love---she should have spurned him (Philander) and gloried in her love for Cesario. Instead she hid her affair by continuing to pretend love for Philander, and even having sex with him. Philander claims to be disgusted not by the affair, but the lies and pretence.
See how the real-life gossip is woven into the text here: Philander tells Sylvia that he knew all about Myrtilla's affair with Cesario and didn't care, because he (Philander) was already in love with her (Sylvia). He was even glad of it, since it freed him from any need to consider "honour".
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p11 of VMC edition with 'When I had sealed the enclosed, Brilliard told me you were this morning come from Bellfont'
10. Yes, Brilliard is the stand-in for William Turner, who may or may not have been married to Henrietta.
Bellfont is probably being used as a stand-in for The Durdans, the Berkeley family estate, which was situated near Epsom outside of London.
34lyzard
Also regarding:
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p7 of VMC edition with 'Twice last night, oh unfaithful and unloving Sylvia!'
This letter is a good example of what I was saying earlier (#22) about Philander. First we get a lengthy recapitulation of his dreams and fantasies about Sylvia; and that of course leads to:
...a man, that did not only love first, but resolved to die in that agreeable flame...
The dream and the dying both tend to one thing, of course: the entire letter is an argument for why Henrietta should surrender her virginity to him, rather than wait for a husband chosen by her father:
...methought my Sylvia yielded, with a faint struggle and a soft resistance; I heard her broken sighs, her tender whispering voice, that trembling cried,---"Oh! Can you be so cruel?--- Have you the heart--- Will you undo a maid, because she loves you? Oh! Will you ruin me, because you may?--- My faithless--- My unkind---" then sighed, and yielded, and made me happier than a triumphing god! But this was still a dream...
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p7 of VMC edition with 'Twice last night, oh unfaithful and unloving Sylvia!'
This letter is a good example of what I was saying earlier (#22) about Philander. First we get a lengthy recapitulation of his dreams and fantasies about Sylvia; and that of course leads to:
...a man, that did not only love first, but resolved to die in that agreeable flame...
The dream and the dying both tend to one thing, of course: the entire letter is an argument for why Henrietta should surrender her virginity to him, rather than wait for a husband chosen by her father:
...methought my Sylvia yielded, with a faint struggle and a soft resistance; I heard her broken sighs, her tender whispering voice, that trembling cried,---"Oh! Can you be so cruel?--- Have you the heart--- Will you undo a maid, because she loves you? Oh! Will you ruin me, because you may?--- My faithless--- My unkind---" then sighed, and yielded, and made me happier than a triumphing god! But this was still a dream...
35lyzard
>32 Smiler69: Welcome, Ilana!
Don't worry about catching up, just take your time and go at your own pace.
Don't worry about catching up, just take your time and go at your own pace.
37lyzard
People may be interested in this webpage about the history of The Durdans - particularly this quote!---
The whole country was shocked by the runaway romance of Henrietta Berkeley and Forde, Lord Grey. He was a peer destined for high office, and a well-known seducer; she was a hot-blooded teenager, and an earl's daughter. She was also his sister-in-law, which gave them ample opportunity to spend time together at the Durdans. When the news became public, Henrietta fled from the house wearing only a nightgown and petticoat, and took refuge with her lover in London.
The whole country was shocked by the runaway romance of Henrietta Berkeley and Forde, Lord Grey. He was a peer destined for high office, and a well-known seducer; she was a hot-blooded teenager, and an earl's daughter. She was also his sister-in-law, which gave them ample opportunity to spend time together at the Durdans. When the news became public, Henrietta fled from the house wearing only a nightgown and petticoat, and took refuge with her lover in London.
38Smiler69
Well, I've read up to page 15 today, and as you saw Liz, I mentioned on my thread that so far I found Aphra Behn's 17th century prose easier to make out than you had led us to believe. I did not really have questions, and didn't have a notebook by my side as I was reading anyway, but even if I had, all I would have done would have been to take down sections to quote back here so I could proclaim loudly was a horrid manipulator Philander is. So horribly manipulative in fact, that I have the feeling I am reading the letters of one of the characters in Dangerous Liaisons!
What a nerve he has to reiterate that he's primarily attached to his image of her. Typical man though, in my experience.
Heather is asking all the questions I'd want to ask, and the pace so far seems good to me. And I also see Liz why you said it might be possible to finish the first section this month. It really is very short!
As an aside, I did take the time to read the introduction in the Virago edition which was also instructive.
What a nerve he has to reiterate that he's primarily attached to his image of her. Typical man though, in my experience.
Heather is asking all the questions I'd want to ask, and the pace so far seems good to me. And I also see Liz why you said it might be possible to finish the first section this month. It really is very short!
As an aside, I did take the time to read the introduction in the Virago edition which was also instructive.
39macsbrains
This Philander guy is a piece of work. No wonder the word philanderer made it into our vocabularies!
40souloftherose
>33 lyzard:, >34 lyzard: & >37 lyzard: Thanks Liz.
Like Ilana, I'm finding the prose easier than I thought and read up to p37 yesterday although I still have quite a few questions. If they get overwhelming please tell me to slow down!
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p14 of VMC edition with 'Not yet? - not yet? oh ye dull tedious hours'
All questions from the postscript
11. 'If Dorillus come not with a letter'
Is Dorillus a servant? In the Virago text all the proper nouns are in italics. Was this the custom at the time?
12. 'knowing how you are involv'd in the interest you have espoused with the young Cesario'
This 'interest' is the Rye House Plot? Was Monmouth (allegedly) hoping to become king by eliminating Charles II and James II?
13. 'if Sylvia could command, Philander should be loyal as he's noble; and what generous maid would not suspect his vows to a mistress, who breaks 'em with his prince and master!'
If his vows to Charles II can't be trusted how can she trust his promises to her?
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p17 of VMC edition with 'As I was going to send away this enclos'd, Dorillus came with two letters'
14. 'Tell me not, thou charming beguiler, that Myrtilla was to blame; was it fault in her, and will it be virtue in me?'
Philander is excusing his desire to seduce Sylvia by saying that Myrtilla is having an affair (or has fallen in love with Cesario) and Sylvia is pointing out that she will be doing the same thing if she gives in to Philander?
15. 'Nay, like young Paris fled with the fair prize, your fond, your eager passion made it a rape.'
I think Paris is the young man who carried off Helen of Troy in The Iliad but I don't understand the relevance to what's happened between Philander and Sylvia. Or is it referring to what happened between Philander and Myrtilla?
Like Ilana, I'm finding the prose easier than I thought and read up to p37 yesterday although I still have quite a few questions. If they get overwhelming please tell me to slow down!
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p14 of VMC edition with 'Not yet? - not yet? oh ye dull tedious hours'
All questions from the postscript
11. 'If Dorillus come not with a letter'
Is Dorillus a servant? In the Virago text all the proper nouns are in italics. Was this the custom at the time?
12. 'knowing how you are involv'd in the interest you have espoused with the young Cesario'
This 'interest' is the Rye House Plot? Was Monmouth (allegedly) hoping to become king by eliminating Charles II and James II?
13. 'if Sylvia could command, Philander should be loyal as he's noble; and what generous maid would not suspect his vows to a mistress, who breaks 'em with his prince and master!'
If his vows to Charles II can't be trusted how can she trust his promises to her?
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p17 of VMC edition with 'As I was going to send away this enclos'd, Dorillus came with two letters'
14. 'Tell me not, thou charming beguiler, that Myrtilla was to blame; was it fault in her, and will it be virtue in me?'
Philander is excusing his desire to seduce Sylvia by saying that Myrtilla is having an affair (or has fallen in love with Cesario) and Sylvia is pointing out that she will be doing the same thing if she gives in to Philander?
15. 'Nay, like young Paris fled with the fair prize, your fond, your eager passion made it a rape.'
I think Paris is the young man who carried off Helen of Troy in The Iliad but I don't understand the relevance to what's happened between Philander and Sylvia. Or is it referring to what happened between Philander and Myrtilla?
41souloftherose
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p21 of VMC edition with 'I tremble with the apprehension of what you ask: how shall I comply with your fond desires?'
16. 'which all about me now are very far from conceiving, except Melinda, my faithful confidante, adn too fatal counsellor;'
Is Melinda a servant? A friend?
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p28 of VMC edition with 'Say, fond love, whither thou wilt lead me?'
17. 'should any accident happen to prevent my seeing you to-night, I were undone for ever, and you must expect to find me strech'd out, dead and cold under this oak'
I forgot your comment about keeping count of the 'dying of love' remarks until this point but this definitely counts!
18. 'for, if you do, by heaven I will forget all considerations and respect, and force myself with all the violence of raging love into the presence of my cruel Sylvia; own her mine and ravish my delight; nor shall the happy walls of Bellfont be of strength sufficient to secure her'
What is he threatening here? I don't know if I'm reading too much into the language but it doesn't sound pleasant (or romantic).
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p30 of VMC edition with 'Approach, approach, you sacred Queen of Night'
19. 'let the deity descend to his beloved Thetis's arms'
Who was Thetis? The name sounds Greek?
20. 'But all his life has been one continued miracle; all good, all gracious, calm and merciful: and this good, this god-like King, is mark'd out for slaughter, design'd a sacrifice to the private revenge of a few ambitious knaves and rebels, whose pretence is the public good and doomed to be basely murdered.'
Initially I was quite confused by this because I thought Sylvia was against the plot but I think she's using a type of rhetoric to show how wrong assassinating the King is?
And that took me to the end of the Queen of Night letter.
16. 'which all about me now are very far from conceiving, except Melinda, my faithful confidante, adn too fatal counsellor;'
Is Melinda a servant? A friend?
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p28 of VMC edition with 'Say, fond love, whither thou wilt lead me?'
17. 'should any accident happen to prevent my seeing you to-night, I were undone for ever, and you must expect to find me strech'd out, dead and cold under this oak'
I forgot your comment about keeping count of the 'dying of love' remarks until this point but this definitely counts!
18. 'for, if you do, by heaven I will forget all considerations and respect, and force myself with all the violence of raging love into the presence of my cruel Sylvia; own her mine and ravish my delight; nor shall the happy walls of Bellfont be of strength sufficient to secure her'
What is he threatening here? I don't know if I'm reading too much into the language but it doesn't sound pleasant (or romantic).
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p30 of VMC edition with 'Approach, approach, you sacred Queen of Night'
19. 'let the deity descend to his beloved Thetis's arms'
Who was Thetis? The name sounds Greek?
20. 'But all his life has been one continued miracle; all good, all gracious, calm and merciful: and this good, this god-like King, is mark'd out for slaughter, design'd a sacrifice to the private revenge of a few ambitious knaves and rebels, whose pretence is the public good and doomed to be basely murdered.'
Initially I was quite confused by this because I thought Sylvia was against the plot but I think she's using a type of rhetoric to show how wrong assassinating the King is?
And that took me to the end of the Queen of Night letter.
42lyzard
>38 Smiler69: & 39 & >40 souloftherose:
I'm glad that you're both finding it accessible. I think this novel out of the three is the easiest to read, because although it's presented as letters, the text is mostly dialogue. Behn was a playwright, of course, and used to using conversation to tell a story. I think when (if?) we move past this straight epistolary section of the work and into greater stretches of third-person prose, it does get a bit more difficult, though. We'll see. :)
Ilana, I think that reference to Dangerous Liaisons is exactly on the mark and may not be coincidental - Love-Letters was an enormously popular work in France as well as in England, and it is quite possible that de Laclos was influenced by it.
"A piece of work" is exactly the right description for him! :)
I'm glad that you're both finding it accessible. I think this novel out of the three is the easiest to read, because although it's presented as letters, the text is mostly dialogue. Behn was a playwright, of course, and used to using conversation to tell a story. I think when (if?) we move past this straight epistolary section of the work and into greater stretches of third-person prose, it does get a bit more difficult, though. We'll see. :)
Ilana, I think that reference to Dangerous Liaisons is exactly on the mark and may not be coincidental - Love-Letters was an enormously popular work in France as well as in England, and it is quite possible that de Laclos was influenced by it.
"A piece of work" is exactly the right description for him! :)
43lyzard
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p14 of VMC edition with 'Not yet? - not yet? oh ye dull tedious hours'
The slight obscurity of the letters here is very interesting to me. As I've said, this was pretty much the first true epistolary novel, and yet we find Behn succeeding where many later, much more experienced novelists fail---she doesn't have here correspondents telling each other things that they must already know, in order to inform the reader. Instead, she leaves it to the reader to try and infer the details.
So with an opening 'I think'---
11. Philander and Sylvia have been forced to take some of the servants into their confidence; presumably bribery is involved. It sounds to me as if Dorillus is the gardener at Bellfont, and that he has his own cottage where letters can be left and received, and possibly where Philander and Sylvia can meet.
Yes, at this time there was often capitalisation and/or italicising of proper nouns; though as you say, it was a "custom", as there really were no "rules". In original 17th century texts, this sort of thing comes and goes and gets very confusing. :)
NOW---having had nothing but sex and seduction for the first five letters, we have reached the point where politics intrude. The postscript to Sylvia's letter indicates that she has heard (to her horror) that Philander is involved with Cesario and the plot to overthrow the king. What follows from Henrietta is Behn putting forward the Tory / royalist side of the real-life struggle that was going on.
12. Yes. The Rye House Plot is all a bit obscure because it didn't happen, but the official story was that Charles and James were to be ambushed and assassinated on their way back from the races at Newmarket. However, there was a fire at Newmarket and the races were called off, Charles and James left early and the plot came to nothing. Afterwards, supposedly, evidence came to light; Monmouth, who was implicated, was allowed to escape to the Continent, while the other ring-leaders, including Lord Grey, were rounded up.
Because Behn has transferred her story to early 17th century France, the details don't jibe perfectly, and we hear vaguely of a plot to overthrow the king; in England, it was James they wanted removed, not Charles (unless it became necessary).
Henrietta, coming of a Tory / royalist family, is horrified to learn that Philander is involving himself with Cesario and the plot against the king, because it is dangerous and because it is WRONG.
what generous maid would not suspect his vows to a mistress, who breaks 'em with his prince and master!
Oh, Henrietta! You should have taken your own advice...!
The slight obscurity of the letters here is very interesting to me. As I've said, this was pretty much the first true epistolary novel, and yet we find Behn succeeding where many later, much more experienced novelists fail---she doesn't have here correspondents telling each other things that they must already know, in order to inform the reader. Instead, she leaves it to the reader to try and infer the details.
So with an opening 'I think'---
11. Philander and Sylvia have been forced to take some of the servants into their confidence; presumably bribery is involved. It sounds to me as if Dorillus is the gardener at Bellfont, and that he has his own cottage where letters can be left and received, and possibly where Philander and Sylvia can meet.
Yes, at this time there was often capitalisation and/or italicising of proper nouns; though as you say, it was a "custom", as there really were no "rules". In original 17th century texts, this sort of thing comes and goes and gets very confusing. :)
NOW---having had nothing but sex and seduction for the first five letters, we have reached the point where politics intrude. The postscript to Sylvia's letter indicates that she has heard (to her horror) that Philander is involved with Cesario and the plot to overthrow the king. What follows from Henrietta is Behn putting forward the Tory / royalist side of the real-life struggle that was going on.
12. Yes. The Rye House Plot is all a bit obscure because it didn't happen, but the official story was that Charles and James were to be ambushed and assassinated on their way back from the races at Newmarket. However, there was a fire at Newmarket and the races were called off, Charles and James left early and the plot came to nothing. Afterwards, supposedly, evidence came to light; Monmouth, who was implicated, was allowed to escape to the Continent, while the other ring-leaders, including Lord Grey, were rounded up.
Because Behn has transferred her story to early 17th century France, the details don't jibe perfectly, and we hear vaguely of a plot to overthrow the king; in England, it was James they wanted removed, not Charles (unless it became necessary).
Henrietta, coming of a Tory / royalist family, is horrified to learn that Philander is involving himself with Cesario and the plot against the king, because it is dangerous and because it is WRONG.
what generous maid would not suspect his vows to a mistress, who breaks 'em with his prince and master!
Oh, Henrietta! You should have taken your own advice...!
44lyzard
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p17 of VMC edition with 'As I was going to send away this enclos'd, Dorillus came with two letters'
14. Yes, Philander has used the wrong tactics here---in trying to blame it on Myrtilla (Henrietta's sister, after all), he has made Henrietta stop and wonder how exactly they are any different (i.e. less wrong). Even more to the point, she recognises that all of Philander's love and passion and "dying" were once directed at Myrtilla: ...all the oaths, vows, protestations, tears and prayers you make and pay at my feet, are but the faint repetitions, the feeble echoes of what you sigh'd out at hers...
15. Yes, it was Paris who carried away Helen of Troy and sparked the Trojan War.
Henrietta seems to be suggesting that Philander's passion for Myrtilla was such that it overwhelmed her, even though she didn't really love him, she loved Cesario.
We need to be careful how we interpret the word "rape": it did not necessarily mean what we would take it to mean, but was used to convey any aspect of violence or compulsion within a relationship, even where it wasn't against one party's will.
The other important thing in this letter is that, carrying on from the earlier postscript mention above (#43), Henrietta compares her situation in love, with Philander's situation in politics. She returns to the earlier argument of honour vs love, comparing honour to loyalty to the king, and love to the brewing rebellion under Cesario:
...like states luxurious grown with ease, {love} ungratefully rebels against the sovereign power {i.e. honour} that made it great and happy...
14. Yes, Philander has used the wrong tactics here---in trying to blame it on Myrtilla (Henrietta's sister, after all), he has made Henrietta stop and wonder how exactly they are any different (i.e. less wrong). Even more to the point, she recognises that all of Philander's love and passion and "dying" were once directed at Myrtilla: ...all the oaths, vows, protestations, tears and prayers you make and pay at my feet, are but the faint repetitions, the feeble echoes of what you sigh'd out at hers...
15. Yes, it was Paris who carried away Helen of Troy and sparked the Trojan War.
Henrietta seems to be suggesting that Philander's passion for Myrtilla was such that it overwhelmed her, even though she didn't really love him, she loved Cesario.
We need to be careful how we interpret the word "rape": it did not necessarily mean what we would take it to mean, but was used to convey any aspect of violence or compulsion within a relationship, even where it wasn't against one party's will.
The other important thing in this letter is that, carrying on from the earlier postscript mention above (#43), Henrietta compares her situation in love, with Philander's situation in politics. She returns to the earlier argument of honour vs love, comparing honour to loyalty to the king, and love to the brewing rebellion under Cesario:
...like states luxurious grown with ease, {love} ungratefully rebels against the sovereign power {i.e. honour} that made it great and happy...
45lyzard
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p21 of VMC edition with 'I tremble with the apprehension of what you ask: how shall I comply with your fond desires?'
16. Melinda is Sylvia's maid, also in the secret and also being bribed.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p28 of VMC edition with 'Say, fond love, whither thou wilt lead me?'
(NB: two Q16s; you should fix the numbering in your earlier post to avoid confusion.)
17 Oh, yes!---if Henrietta doesn't let Philander have sex with her tonight, HE WILL DIE!!!!
Poor baby.
18. On the other hand, sometimes a rape *is* a rape.
This goes back to what I was saying about relationships being described in terms of warfare. It was a very violent time, and even supposedly love relationships could be violent, or conceived in terms of violence---to the point where it can be impossible to recognise anything we would be inclined to call "love".
It was not uncommon to find first sex couched in terms of "I know you want it even if you won't admit it, so I'll just take it". Here, Philander's head is filled with visions of "conquest", in which Sylvia either "surrenders" or is "ravished". Note that Sylvia saying "no" makes her "cruel" (and therefore deserving of anything she gets).
I cannot live another night without it; I die by heaven...
By heaven?
16. Melinda is Sylvia's maid, also in the secret and also being bribed.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p28 of VMC edition with 'Say, fond love, whither thou wilt lead me?'
(NB: two Q16s; you should fix the numbering in your earlier post to avoid confusion.)
17 Oh, yes!---if Henrietta doesn't let Philander have sex with her tonight, HE WILL DIE!!!!
Poor baby.
18. On the other hand, sometimes a rape *is* a rape.
This goes back to what I was saying about relationships being described in terms of warfare. It was a very violent time, and even supposedly love relationships could be violent, or conceived in terms of violence---to the point where it can be impossible to recognise anything we would be inclined to call "love".
It was not uncommon to find first sex couched in terms of "I know you want it even if you won't admit it, so I'll just take it". Here, Philander's head is filled with visions of "conquest", in which Sylvia either "surrenders" or is "ravished". Note that Sylvia saying "no" makes her "cruel" (and therefore deserving of anything she gets).
I cannot live another night without it; I die by heaven...
By heaven?
46lyzard
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p30 of VMC edition with 'Approach, approach, you sacred Queen of Night'
19. The mention of Thetis (a sea-nymph from Greek mythology) introduces quite a complicated set of analogies.
Thetis was the mother of Achilles, so this reintroduces the Trojan War theme and another round of war references in this love affair.
Thetis was also instrumental in defending Zeus against a rebellion by some of the other Olympian gods, which echoes Sylvia's loyalty to the king, who is also facing a rebellion.
Most simply, the setting of the sun with its apparent sinking into the sea is couched in terms of a sexual union between "the God of Day" and Thetis the sea-nymph.
20. There's a comma missing in that sentence, which alters the sense of it - it should be ...design'd a sacrifice to the private revenge of a few ambitious knaves and rebels, whose pretence is the public good, and doomed to be basely murdered...
In this letter Aphra Behn makes explicit the Tory / royalist position, which held that monarchs were divinely anointed and that interfering in the monarchical succession in any way was not just treasonous, but blasphemous, as it went against the will of God:
...this king, this great, this good, this royal forgiver? This, who was born a king, and born your king; and holds his crown by right of nature, by right of law, by right of heaven itself...
This was the time of the Divine Right of Kings; the Stuarts were very great believers in their own pseudo-divinity. Of course, the problem was the gap between theory and practice: you'd go a long way to find anyone less "god-like" than Charles Stuart. Being a good monarchist required the ability to look the other way and to simply ignore all the blunders, sins and general bastardry emanating from the throne.
To reiterate, the Whigs wanted the Catholic James removed from the succession; more broadly, they wanted the power to decide who sat on the throne. They wanted power to rest with Parliament, not with an accident of birth.
The trouble with the Whig position is that they didn't really want Monmouth; he was simply all they had by way of a Protestant replacement for James. It was argued by the Tories, and probably with some truth, that the main attraction of Monmouth was that he was ambitious but weak and easily manipulated: that the Whigs intended setting up a puppet monarchy with themselves the power behind the throne.
In this letter, Behn also gives us the Tory view of Monmouth:
...not one other merit has he, since in piety, chastity, sobriety, charity and honour, he as little excels, as in gratitude, obedience and loyalty. What then, my dear Philander? Is it his weakness? Ah, there's the argument: you all propose, and think to govern so soft a king: but believe me, oh unhappy Philander! Nothing is more ungovernable than a fool; nothing more obstinate, wilful, conceited and cunning...
19. The mention of Thetis (a sea-nymph from Greek mythology) introduces quite a complicated set of analogies.
Thetis was the mother of Achilles, so this reintroduces the Trojan War theme and another round of war references in this love affair.
Thetis was also instrumental in defending Zeus against a rebellion by some of the other Olympian gods, which echoes Sylvia's loyalty to the king, who is also facing a rebellion.
Most simply, the setting of the sun with its apparent sinking into the sea is couched in terms of a sexual union between "the God of Day" and Thetis the sea-nymph.
20. There's a comma missing in that sentence, which alters the sense of it - it should be ...design'd a sacrifice to the private revenge of a few ambitious knaves and rebels, whose pretence is the public good, and doomed to be basely murdered...
In this letter Aphra Behn makes explicit the Tory / royalist position, which held that monarchs were divinely anointed and that interfering in the monarchical succession in any way was not just treasonous, but blasphemous, as it went against the will of God:
...this king, this great, this good, this royal forgiver? This, who was born a king, and born your king; and holds his crown by right of nature, by right of law, by right of heaven itself...
This was the time of the Divine Right of Kings; the Stuarts were very great believers in their own pseudo-divinity. Of course, the problem was the gap between theory and practice: you'd go a long way to find anyone less "god-like" than Charles Stuart. Being a good monarchist required the ability to look the other way and to simply ignore all the blunders, sins and general bastardry emanating from the throne.
To reiterate, the Whigs wanted the Catholic James removed from the succession; more broadly, they wanted the power to decide who sat on the throne. They wanted power to rest with Parliament, not with an accident of birth.
The trouble with the Whig position is that they didn't really want Monmouth; he was simply all they had by way of a Protestant replacement for James. It was argued by the Tories, and probably with some truth, that the main attraction of Monmouth was that he was ambitious but weak and easily manipulated: that the Whigs intended setting up a puppet monarchy with themselves the power behind the throne.
In this letter, Behn also gives us the Tory view of Monmouth:
...not one other merit has he, since in piety, chastity, sobriety, charity and honour, he as little excels, as in gratitude, obedience and loyalty. What then, my dear Philander? Is it his weakness? Ah, there's the argument: you all propose, and think to govern so soft a king: but believe me, oh unhappy Philander! Nothing is more ungovernable than a fool; nothing more obstinate, wilful, conceited and cunning...
47lyzard
Phew!
Now, after all that, I think we might have a short Intermission, so we can all catch our breaths a bit.
At this time, can I ask how everyone (including our lurkers) is getting along? And if anyone has any more questions regarding these first fourteen letters (i.e. up to and including the "Queen of Night" letter, up to pg 37 in the Virago edition), please ask them now.
Now, after all that, I think we might have a short Intermission, so we can all catch our breaths a bit.
At this time, can I ask how everyone (including our lurkers) is getting along? And if anyone has any more questions regarding these first fourteen letters (i.e. up to and including the "Queen of Night" letter, up to pg 37 in the Virago edition), please ask them now.
48lauralkeet
The Queen of the Night letter nearly sent me over the edge when I first read it a few days ago. Your explanation helps, but rereading it seems Behn deviated pretty far from Sylvia/Henrietta's character to make her political points. The letter doesn't sound at all like a 17-year-old girl involved in a seduction. Behn sort of covers for that in the opening sentence of Philander's reply.
I'm curious how much time is supposed to have elapsed between letters. These next few letters (from page 37) seem rather rapid-fire, with letters going to and fro in the space of a few hours. Am I reading this correctly?
I'm curious how much time is supposed to have elapsed between letters. These next few letters (from page 37) seem rather rapid-fire, with letters going to and fro in the space of a few hours. Am I reading this correctly?
49lyzard
What you say is quite true, but at this stage English fiction was rarely just fiction; it was written with a purpose. Although it is unrealistic to have this coming from Henrietta / Sylvia inasmuch as she is a seventeen-year-old girl, within the text she is the representative of the Tory / royalist side (which her family were known to be) as so the political arguments are put in her mouth (possibly with a subtext of, "It's so obvious even an inexperienced girl can see it!").
Yes, at this point Philander knows he has Sylvia on the verge of surrender so he is keeping up the pressure with a flurry of letters - and perhaps making sure she hasn't much time to think about either his politics or his marriage.
Yes, at this point Philander knows he has Sylvia on the verge of surrender so he is keeping up the pressure with a flurry of letters - and perhaps making sure she hasn't much time to think about either his politics or his marriage.
50souloftherose
>45 lyzard: "(NB: two Q16s; you should fix the numbering in your earlier post to avoid confusion.)"
Oops, I've fixed the numbering now.
The style of the arguments used by Philander and Sylvia is reminding me a lot of Richardson's Clarissa. Do we know if Richardson had read Love-Letters?
I think a bit of a breather is probably a good thing. For all that I sometimes find the arguments hard to follow I'm also finding it quite difficult not to read just one more letter when I'm reading.
Oops, I've fixed the numbering now.
The style of the arguments used by Philander and Sylvia is reminding me a lot of Richardson's Clarissa. Do we know if Richardson had read Love-Letters?
I think a bit of a breather is probably a good thing. For all that I sometimes find the arguments hard to follow I'm also finding it quite difficult not to read just one more letter when I'm reading.
51lyzard
Oh, dear - you've pushed a button! :)
Yes, absolutely Richardson was influenced by Behn. The problem is that even while he was drawing upon her writing, in his role as self-appointed literary moral arbiter he was publicly condemning her, personally, as "immoral" and "vile" and warning readers away from her.
Over the course of the 18th century and into the 19th, Aphra became effectively "unmentionable" in polite circles, and so her writing dropped out of the canon despite being very influential over the first half of the 18th century. (It remained so in Europe, particularly in France: Oroonoko became a standard text amongst the abolitionists and other philosophical writers, and Ilana has pointed out the likely connection between Love-Letters and Dangerous Liaisons.) It wasn't until the early 20th century that people began to consider her writing again, and not until the 1980s that she was restored to the timeline of the English novel. (And there are still people who want to give you an argument on that point.)
Yes, absolutely Richardson was influenced by Behn. The problem is that even while he was drawing upon her writing, in his role as self-appointed literary moral arbiter he was publicly condemning her, personally, as "immoral" and "vile" and warning readers away from her.
Over the course of the 18th century and into the 19th, Aphra became effectively "unmentionable" in polite circles, and so her writing dropped out of the canon despite being very influential over the first half of the 18th century. (It remained so in Europe, particularly in France: Oroonoko became a standard text amongst the abolitionists and other philosophical writers, and Ilana has pointed out the likely connection between Love-Letters and Dangerous Liaisons.) It wasn't until the early 20th century that people began to consider her writing again, and not until the 1980s that she was restored to the timeline of the English novel. (And there are still people who want to give you an argument on that point.)
52Smiler69
Well, if I understand you correctly Liz, as she is the mother of the English novel as we know it, Aphra Behn can probably be named as an influence for almost all the early English literature we know of, whether those authors acknowledged their debt to her or not, am I correct?
Like Laura, I too was surprised that a seventeen-year-old would hold such a strong political discourse and views with that Queen of the Night letter, but then, I found the bulk of her correspondence sounded very mature even before that, except for that part of "woe is me, poor innocent little virgin that I am!" (not a direct quote). Any comments on that Liz?
I have every intention of keeping up with Heather as well as I can. So far I've found her pace quite comfortable, and continue to be surprised by how clear the prose seems to me. Perhaps by comparison the rest of the books won't seem so bad either?
Like Laura, I too was surprised that a seventeen-year-old would hold such a strong political discourse and views with that Queen of the Night letter, but then, I found the bulk of her correspondence sounded very mature even before that, except for that part of "woe is me, poor innocent little virgin that I am!" (not a direct quote). Any comments on that Liz?
I have every intention of keeping up with Heather as well as I can. So far I've found her pace quite comfortable, and continue to be surprised by how clear the prose seems to me. Perhaps by comparison the rest of the books won't seem so bad either?
53lyzard
I think so, but there are still quite a lot of academics who are reluctant to admit it for whatever reason, and who continue to insist that it all started with Daniel Defoe.
With respect to Henrietta / Sylvia's age, we should probably keep in mind that at this time, girls were routinely married off in their early and mid-teens, so it is not out of the question that a seventeen-year-old would consider herself an adult and ready for an adult love affair. The literature of the time often featured very young central characters with no sense of "age inappropriateness": I know of one work from 1682 that has its seventeen-year-old heroine bemoaning her status as old maid, and one from a couple of years later that has its anti-hero embarking on a career of seduction and murder at sixteen. It was a live fast / die young age, so we probably need to adjust our thinking a bit.
Whether girls at the time really took such an interest in politics is another matter; although as an aristocrat and a member of a politically prominent family, it is not out of the question that Henrietta / Sylvia was very aware of the dangerous conflicts of the time. However, this aspect is not necessarily meant to be realistic: she is Behn's mouthpiece.
I'm glad you're finding this easy to read. Of course, when it comes to 17th century prose generally, Behn is a better writer than many who picked up the pen at this time (particularly the others with a political purpose). It's remarkable to think that this was her first attempt at fiction. I do think, though, that these letters are a bit easier than some of the third-person prose of the later volumes. We'll see. :)
With respect to Henrietta / Sylvia's age, we should probably keep in mind that at this time, girls were routinely married off in their early and mid-teens, so it is not out of the question that a seventeen-year-old would consider herself an adult and ready for an adult love affair. The literature of the time often featured very young central characters with no sense of "age inappropriateness": I know of one work from 1682 that has its seventeen-year-old heroine bemoaning her status as old maid, and one from a couple of years later that has its anti-hero embarking on a career of seduction and murder at sixteen. It was a live fast / die young age, so we probably need to adjust our thinking a bit.
Whether girls at the time really took such an interest in politics is another matter; although as an aristocrat and a member of a politically prominent family, it is not out of the question that Henrietta / Sylvia was very aware of the dangerous conflicts of the time. However, this aspect is not necessarily meant to be realistic: she is Behn's mouthpiece.
I'm glad you're finding this easy to read. Of course, when it comes to 17th century prose generally, Behn is a better writer than many who picked up the pen at this time (particularly the others with a political purpose). It's remarkable to think that this was her first attempt at fiction. I do think, though, that these letters are a bit easier than some of the third-person prose of the later volumes. We'll see. :)
54lauralkeet
I agree with your comment about a 17yo being considered adult. It was indeed a live fast / die young era, and therefore important for procreation to occur as soon as possible.
55lyzard
Okay---I guess if there are no other questions or comments, we can proceed as soon as Heather is ready to go.
56souloftherose
Sorry, I didn't mean the breather to last this long and I have read a bit further and have some questions to post but I was going to post them this morning before work until I failed to set my alarm and overslept by half an hour. Luckily the cat woke me up (which is the only time I have ever been grateful to her for doing that) so I did make it to work on time...
>51 lyzard: Thank you for explaining some of the reasons why Aphra Behn has been overlooked. Once we finish this tutored read I would like to try reading some biographies about Aphra Behn. I've got Maureen Duffy's The Passionate Shepherdess and Janet Todd's The Secret Life of Aphra Behn on my list - I think it was Duffy's biography that kickstarted the reinterest in Behn? (She also wrote the introduction to the VMC edition of Love-Letters.)
>51 lyzard: Thank you for explaining some of the reasons why Aphra Behn has been overlooked. Once we finish this tutored read I would like to try reading some biographies about Aphra Behn. I've got Maureen Duffy's The Passionate Shepherdess and Janet Todd's The Secret Life of Aphra Behn on my list - I think it was Duffy's biography that kickstarted the reinterest in Behn? (She also wrote the introduction to the VMC edition of Love-Letters.)
57souloftherose
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p37 of VMC edition with 'How comes my charming Sylvia so skilled in the mysteries of State?'
More politics
21. 'when three kingdoms shall lie unpossess'd, and be exposed, as it were, amongst the rafflig crowd, who knows but the chance may be mind, as well as any other's, who has but the same hazard and throw for it?'
I've just finished watching a very helpful TV programme on the Stuarts (hepful both for Love-Letters and some background on the Scottish referendum) so I think the three kingdoms referred to are England and Wales (I still don't really know why this counts as one kingdom), Scotland and Ireland. Philander seems to be suggesting that if the assassination plot comes off he might have a chance at the throne. Was this based on what people thought Grey had intended?
22. 'Cesario has no more right to it than Philander'
Really? Cesario is Monmouth who is the eldest illegitimate son of Charles II - that might not give him a legal right but there's some kind of connection between Cesario and the throne. There doesn't seem to be one for Lord Grrey.
23. 'Cesario must pardon me, if I think his politics are shallow as his parts, and that his own interest has undone him;'
Ouch. What are Cesario's 'parts'? Philander seems like he's being quite unfair to Ceasrio - he's almost admitted he wants the same things as Cesario and then says Cesario is silly for wanting those things.
More politics
21. 'when three kingdoms shall lie unpossess'd, and be exposed, as it were, amongst the rafflig crowd, who knows but the chance may be mind, as well as any other's, who has but the same hazard and throw for it?'
I've just finished watching a very helpful TV programme on the Stuarts (hepful both for Love-Letters and some background on the Scottish referendum) so I think the three kingdoms referred to are England and Wales (I still don't really know why this counts as one kingdom), Scotland and Ireland. Philander seems to be suggesting that if the assassination plot comes off he might have a chance at the throne. Was this based on what people thought Grey had intended?
22. 'Cesario has no more right to it than Philander'
Really? Cesario is Monmouth who is the eldest illegitimate son of Charles II - that might not give him a legal right but there's some kind of connection between Cesario and the throne. There doesn't seem to be one for Lord Grrey.
23. 'Cesario must pardon me, if I think his politics are shallow as his parts, and that his own interest has undone him;'
Ouch. What are Cesario's 'parts'? Philander seems like he's being quite unfair to Ceasrio - he's almost admitted he wants the same things as Cesario and then says Cesario is silly for wanting those things.
58souloftherose
Things are a wee bit busy between now and Sunday so the pace of reading/posting questions might slow down a bit until then.
59lyzard
>56 souloftherose: & >58 souloftherose: Not a problem, Heather! I've been grateful for the Kitty Alarm Clock myself upon occasion; although more commonly she wakes me at the crack of dawn on Saturdays, and snores through the alarm on weekdays. :)
Maureen Duffy's study was the breakthrough work on Behn, but if you were only looking to read one book on Aphra you would probably want to go with The Secret Life Of Aphra Behn - recent research has cleared up some of the mysteries and misapprehensions that were extant when the earlier books were written.
Maureen Duffy's study was the breakthrough work on Behn, but if you were only looking to read one book on Aphra you would probably want to go with The Secret Life Of Aphra Behn - recent research has cleared up some of the mysteries and misapprehensions that were extant when the earlier books were written.
60lyzard
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p37 of VMC edition with 'How comes my charming Sylvia so skilled in the mysteries of State?'
21. In this letter we return to the suggestion that the supporters of Monmouth weren't really his supporters at all, but were in it for what they could get for themselves. Grey in particular was viewed as dangerous and self-interested.
Again this is the Tory view of the situation - if you interfered with God's choice for the monarchy, you could end up with just anyone on the throne, which would be a disaster.
22. That's a slap at Monmouth rather than Grey, emphasising not only his illegitimacy, but that Charles had openly refused to name Monmouth as his heir. As far as the Tories were concerned that should have been the end of it.
23. "Parts" means intelligence, talents, abilities, character - again coming back to the idea that Monmouth was being used by his so-called followers, that he would simply be a figurehead monarch with the real brains being behind the throne.
Grey / Philander isn't saying that Monmouth / Cesario is silly for wanting those things, but that he doesn't have the brains or the ability to win them and hold them for himself.
21. In this letter we return to the suggestion that the supporters of Monmouth weren't really his supporters at all, but were in it for what they could get for themselves. Grey in particular was viewed as dangerous and self-interested.
Again this is the Tory view of the situation - if you interfered with God's choice for the monarchy, you could end up with just anyone on the throne, which would be a disaster.
22. That's a slap at Monmouth rather than Grey, emphasising not only his illegitimacy, but that Charles had openly refused to name Monmouth as his heir. As far as the Tories were concerned that should have been the end of it.
23. "Parts" means intelligence, talents, abilities, character - again coming back to the idea that Monmouth was being used by his so-called followers, that he would simply be a figurehead monarch with the real brains being behind the throne.
Grey / Philander isn't saying that Monmouth / Cesario is silly for wanting those things, but that he doesn't have the brains or the ability to win them and hold them for himself.
61sparemethecensor
Hi all,
I'm a bit late to the party, but discovering this thread over the weekend, I was so impressed that I knew I had to join in. Tonight, I'll download the book to my Kindle from Project Gutenberg and start reading. I need to go back and read the other posts and discussion in more depth.
I'm really looking forward to joining you!
Thank you for creating this -- what a great idea. This is exactly what I need to get the most out of this book.
I'm a bit late to the party, but discovering this thread over the weekend, I was so impressed that I knew I had to join in. Tonight, I'll download the book to my Kindle from Project Gutenberg and start reading. I need to go back and read the other posts and discussion in more depth.
I'm really looking forward to joining you!
Thank you for creating this -- what a great idea. This is exactly what I need to get the most out of this book.
63Smiler69
All caught up again. Heather is doing a good job of asking all the questions that occur to me. And of course, you Liz, are providing very satisfactory answers. I'll read a couple more letter to be more or less at the same spot when she posts again this weekend.
64souloftherose
>60 lyzard: Ah, thank you. I'd forgotten about the difference between the Whig and Tory veiws and misunderstood what Philander was trying to say.
>61 sparemethecensor: Welcome! Please feel free to add any questions you might have.
>61 sparemethecensor: Welcome! Please feel free to add any questions you might have.
65souloftherose
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p41 of VMC edition with 'My charmer, I wait your commands in the meadow behind the grove'
24. 'Writ in a pair of tablets'
I'm struggling to visualise the tablets - do you know what these were?
25. 'I love my Sylvia to death and madness' and ''till the porr panting overloaded victim dies with the pressing weight'
More death (promises, promises).
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p42 of VMC edition with 'I have received your tablets, of which I have the key'
26. 'I have received your tablets, of which I have the key'
There's a lock? Or does she mean they're in code?
27. 'either the loss of Philander, my life, or my honour, or all together'
Now Sylvia's doing it!
28. 'Ah Philander, could you not have stay'd ten short years longer'
Does this mean Philander has been married to Myrtilla for 10 years? That seems like quite a difference in age between Myrtilla and Sylvia - was that common? How old would we expect Philander to be - in his 30s?
24. 'Writ in a pair of tablets'
I'm struggling to visualise the tablets - do you know what these were?
25. 'I love my Sylvia to death and madness' and ''till the porr panting overloaded victim dies with the pressing weight'
More death (promises, promises).
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p42 of VMC edition with 'I have received your tablets, of which I have the key'
26. 'I have received your tablets, of which I have the key'
There's a lock? Or does she mean they're in code?
27. 'either the loss of Philander, my life, or my honour, or all together'
Now Sylvia's doing it!
28. 'Ah Philander, could you not have stay'd ten short years longer'
Does this mean Philander has been married to Myrtilla for 10 years? That seems like quite a difference in age between Myrtilla and Sylvia - was that common? How old would we expect Philander to be - in his 30s?
66souloftherose
To Monsieur, the Count of _ starting p45 of VMC edition
29. 'I had only time to hide the papers, and to get rid of him, having given him an assignation to-night in the garden grove'
There will be a lot going on to-night (it's like Shakespeare!)
30. 'I implore you, madam, not to discover my weakness to Madam, the Duchess'
So Melinda pretended these were her letters to Alexis (gardener?). Are Madam and the Duchess different people here? Madam the Countess seems to be Sylvia's mother but the Duchess is also referred to as Madam the Duchess at the end of the letter.
No questions on the next two letters. I'm up to:
'Oh I faint with the dear
thought of thy approach'
on p50 of the VMC edition.
29. 'I had only time to hide the papers, and to get rid of him, having given him an assignation to-night in the garden grove'
There will be a lot going on to-night (it's like Shakespeare!)
30. 'I implore you, madam, not to discover my weakness to Madam, the Duchess'
So Melinda pretended these were her letters to Alexis (gardener?). Are Madam and the Duchess different people here? Madam the Countess seems to be Sylvia's mother but the Duchess is also referred to as Madam the Duchess at the end of the letter.
No questions on the next two letters. I'm up to:
'Oh I faint with the dear
thought of thy approach'
on p50 of the VMC edition.
67lyzard
>66 souloftherose: Which is an excellent place to stop for a moment! (I'll explain why shortly.)
68lyzard
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p41 of VMC edition with 'My charmer, I wait your commands in the meadow behind the grove'
24. That's like a small dispatch case or diary, for writing and storing letters. I think "pair" means that it opened to the right and left from a central lockable point - so (as per #26) the key would have been a literal key.
25. Philander makes me go Alanis Morissette all over: You told me / You'd hold me / Until you died / But you're still alive...
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p42 of VMC edition with 'I have received your tablets, of which I have the key'
26. This is a later design, but it gives you an idea of the kind of thing:
27. Well...she's either going to lose Philander or her honour, depending on whether she says no or yes; and if her father finds out what's going on, he'll kill her*, so...
(*Hopefully not literally!)
28. Yes - though there's not necessarily a huge age gap between the sisters, since girls were married off from fifteen onwards - perhaps eight or nine years. With a higher infant mortality rate it wasn't uncommon for an age gap to be left by lost siblings in between.
Philander would be somewhat older, yes. (In actuality Grey was twenty-seven when the two eloped, so it sounds like he married young too - probably a family arrangement made when both parties were too young to know their own minds.)
24. That's like a small dispatch case or diary, for writing and storing letters. I think "pair" means that it opened to the right and left from a central lockable point - so (as per #26) the key would have been a literal key.
25. Philander makes me go Alanis Morissette all over: You told me / You'd hold me / Until you died / But you're still alive...
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p42 of VMC edition with 'I have received your tablets, of which I have the key'
26. This is a later design, but it gives you an idea of the kind of thing:
27. Well...she's either going to lose Philander or her honour, depending on whether she says no or yes; and if her father finds out what's going on, he'll kill her*, so...
(*Hopefully not literally!)
28. Yes - though there's not necessarily a huge age gap between the sisters, since girls were married off from fifteen onwards - perhaps eight or nine years. With a higher infant mortality rate it wasn't uncommon for an age gap to be left by lost siblings in between.
Philander would be somewhat older, yes. (In actuality Grey was twenty-seven when the two eloped, so it sounds like he married young too - probably a family arrangement made when both parties were too young to know their own minds.)
69lyzard
To Monsieur, the Count of _ starting p45 of VMC edition
29. Oh, yes! In this volume and the next there are a couple of sex-farce scenes you can easily imagine being played out on stage - reminding us, of course, that at this point in her career Aphra was a playwright rather than a novelist.
30. Alexis is the son of Dorillus, the gardener at Bellfont who Philander and Sylvia are using to carry their letters. Yes, Melinda is pretending that the intercepted letter is from her to Alexis; we know from Philander's earlier letter (the one starting "How comes my charming Sylvia..") that the two of them usually disguise their handwriting, so Melinda can get away with this.
The Countess is Sylvia's mother; the Duchess is a visitor.
29. Oh, yes! In this volume and the next there are a couple of sex-farce scenes you can easily imagine being played out on stage - reminding us, of course, that at this point in her career Aphra was a playwright rather than a novelist.
30. Alexis is the son of Dorillus, the gardener at Bellfont who Philander and Sylvia are using to carry their letters. Yes, Melinda is pretending that the intercepted letter is from her to Alexis; we know from Philander's earlier letter (the one starting "How comes my charming Sylvia..") that the two of them usually disguise their handwriting, so Melinda can get away with this.
The Countess is Sylvia's mother; the Duchess is a visitor.
70lyzard
I found this when I was trying to find an illustration of what Philander's tablets would have looked like, and just had to share!
71lyzard
Okay---I suggested a slight pause at this point just to emphasise that the next letter, beginning "With much ado, with many a sigh..." is very important and needs to be read very carefully...
:D
:D
72Smiler69
Good think I had paused on page 50 too last night... will follow directives faithfully then.
73lauralkeet
>70 lyzard: love the edition of Cosmo Girle!
>71 lyzard: very important and needs to be read very carefully... Okay, okay, I'll re-read it. I read up to p58 before the tutored read began, and I stopped because I wanted to synchronize my reading with this thread. I think I was starting to flag a bit around pp 50-57, and rereading will also help me get reacquainted with our lovebirds.
>71 lyzard: very important and needs to be read very carefully... Okay, okay, I'll re-read it. I read up to p58 before the tutored read began, and I stopped because I wanted to synchronize my reading with this thread. I think I was starting to flag a bit around pp 50-57, and rereading will also help me get reacquainted with our lovebirds.
74lauralkeet
>73 lauralkeet: I must have been sleepy the first time I read the letter beginning on p50, and am now very glad to have re-read it. Wow! And then, as Heather did earlier, I kept saying "well just one more letter" but stopped at top of p65. I want to wait for the recap here to make sure I haven't missed something important.
76lauralkeet
*nudge, nudge, wink, wink*
77souloftherose
Apologies again for going AWOL over the weekend...
>70 lyzard: Wow at Cosmo Girle! 'To yield or not to yield' seems very apt for the letters so far.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p50 of VMC edition with 'With much ado, with many a sigh, a panting heart'
31. 'I have recovered Dorillus his farm'
Does Philander mean he's returned to the farm or he's returned the farm to Dorillus (i.e. he's not staying at the farm anymore)?
32. 'for yet my Sylvia is a maid'
!!!
33. 'the loose and silken counterscarps'
Some type of clothing?
34. 'Snatched my (till then) never failing power, and left me dying on thy charming bosom'
Not really a question but it was one of the phrases Philander used to try to explain what happened (or rather, what didn't happen) which made me smile
35. 'he wanted power to seize the trembling prey'
Another example of relationships described as warfare or more violently than we're used to?
36. 'I rushed upon her, who, all fainting, lay beneath my useless weight, for on a sudden all my power was fled'
and
'occasioned your recovery from that dear trance'
Does the fainting and passivity reflect the ideal behaviour of a woman being seduced at the time? Or is to indicate how unusually overwhelmed with passion Sylvia is?
37. 'you found it necessary I should depart, your fear had so prevailed, and that in Melinda's night-gown and head-dress'
I want to see this on the stage! Especially after reading the account of what happened in the garden.
38. 'I left the expecting love, I suppose, ranging the grove for his fled nymph, and I doubt will fall heavy on poor Melinda'
Poor Melinda indeed!
39. 'for if you do, by all I adore in heaven and earth I'll end my life here where I received it.'
Ending with the obligatory death threat...
>70 lyzard: Wow at Cosmo Girle! 'To yield or not to yield' seems very apt for the letters so far.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p50 of VMC edition with 'With much ado, with many a sigh, a panting heart'
31. 'I have recovered Dorillus his farm'
Does Philander mean he's returned to the farm or he's returned the farm to Dorillus (i.e. he's not staying at the farm anymore)?
32. 'for yet my Sylvia is a maid'
!!!
33. 'the loose and silken counterscarps'
Some type of clothing?
34. 'Snatched my (till then) never failing power, and left me dying on thy charming bosom'
Not really a question but it was one of the phrases Philander used to try to explain what happened (or rather, what didn't happen) which made me smile
35. 'he wanted power to seize the trembling prey'
Another example of relationships described as warfare or more violently than we're used to?
36. 'I rushed upon her, who, all fainting, lay beneath my useless weight, for on a sudden all my power was fled'
and
'occasioned your recovery from that dear trance'
Does the fainting and passivity reflect the ideal behaviour of a woman being seduced at the time? Or is to indicate how unusually overwhelmed with passion Sylvia is?
37. 'you found it necessary I should depart, your fear had so prevailed, and that in Melinda's night-gown and head-dress'
I want to see this on the stage! Especially after reading the account of what happened in the garden.
38. 'I left the expecting love, I suppose, ranging the grove for his fled nymph, and I doubt will fall heavy on poor Melinda'
Poor Melinda indeed!
39. 'for if you do, by all I adore in heaven and earth I'll end my life here where I received it.'
Ending with the obligatory death threat...
78souloftherose
>76 lauralkeet: Indeed!
79lyzard
>77 souloftherose: Not a problem, Heather - understood, in fact!
Personally I like: "Adultery: The Raging Lusts In A World Of Miseries."
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p50 of VMC edition with 'With much ado, with many a sigh, a panting heart'
31. No, it means he's back at Dorullus' farm. Actually it wasn't clear before that Dorillus owned a farm; it is likely he's tenant of Sylvia's family.
32. Oh, yes, indeed... :)
33. That's actually another bit of perverse war imagery. Counterscarps are part of the fortifications around a moat, intended to prevent attackers from gaining access to the building beyond. Hence, "that fenced the sacred fort."
34. It beats "This never happened to me before!!" - although he basically says that, too.
35. The idea - idea again - of Sylvia as his victim, his prey, is very powerful and a significant aspect of his fantasy. (I will return to this point in a minute.)
36. It was a way of reducing the woman's culpability. If she fainted, she wasn't responsible for what happened next. (Or what didn't happen next!)
37. Yes, it's very easy to imagine this as a play, isn't it?
38. Depends. She might think those, ahem, "presents" worth the acceptance too.
39. I wish he'd get on with it! :)
Personally I like: "Adultery: The Raging Lusts In A World Of Miseries."
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p50 of VMC edition with 'With much ado, with many a sigh, a panting heart'
31. No, it means he's back at Dorullus' farm. Actually it wasn't clear before that Dorillus owned a farm; it is likely he's tenant of Sylvia's family.
32. Oh, yes, indeed... :)
33. That's actually another bit of perverse war imagery. Counterscarps are part of the fortifications around a moat, intended to prevent attackers from gaining access to the building beyond. Hence, "that fenced the sacred fort."
34. It beats "This never happened to me before!!" - although he basically says that, too.
35. The idea - idea again - of Sylvia as his victim, his prey, is very powerful and a significant aspect of his fantasy. (I will return to this point in a minute.)
36. It was a way of reducing the woman's culpability. If she fainted, she wasn't responsible for what happened next. (Or what didn't happen next!)
37. Yes, it's very easy to imagine this as a play, isn't it?
38. Depends. She might think those, ahem, "presents" worth the acceptance too.
39. I wish he'd get on with it! :)
80lyzard
There's a few other points I want to make here.
Aphra Behn was friends with the Earl of Rochester, who was also a poet. The two of them had an interesting professional relationship in which they would write "at" one another, or pick a topic and both write on it. Most famously they both wrote a poem about this sort of situation. Rochester's The Imperfect Enjoyment is from the male perspective and is full of the man furiously blaming the woman for what (didn't) happen, while Behn's The Disappointment was considered quite scandalous* for concentrating on the woman's desire and her subsequent frustration.
(*As Aphra constantly complained, what was fine for a man to write about was automatically scandalous if a woman did.)
Interestingly, there are echoes of The Imperfect Enjoyment in how Philander describes the situation---the same sense of violence and the use of military imagery.
At the time the power imbalance between the sexes was quite extreme, and Behn tended to use moments like this to even the score a little, at least in the artistic sense. It was also a warning. When a situation like this was used in a context of political allegory, it was usually intended to suggest a broader sort of "failure"---broken promises, inadequate leadership. By having the stand-in for Lord Grey stricken by impotence, Behn is again warning against the likely consequences of a Monmouth monarchy.
So though we are certainly meant to snicker at Philander's failure, there are some more serious implications behind this bit of farce. (To put it in modern parlance, "His mouth is writing cheques that his butt can't cash.")
But purely in story terms, again we get a sense of the conflict between the reality of Sylvia and the fantasy of Sylvia. On one hand we have this vision of Sylvia as "the trembling prey", on the other we have the scattering of twisted battle terms - "love's long sieges", "loose and silken counterscarps", "the sacred fort". Clearly he is still taken up with his image of Sylvia as something to be "vanquish'd". He harps on her "fainting" and "trembling", how "defenceless" she is. And then what happens?
I saw the ravishing maid as much inflamed as I; she burnt with equal fire, with equal languishment: not all her care could keep the sparks concealed, but it broke out in every word and look...
In other words, Sylvia meets him halfway, with a passion equal to his own---and it puts him off. His fantasy and his reality part company. He doesn't want an equal partner, he wants a victim to be "overcome". Confronted by an eager, aroused woman, he can't perform.
Aphra Behn was friends with the Earl of Rochester, who was also a poet. The two of them had an interesting professional relationship in which they would write "at" one another, or pick a topic and both write on it. Most famously they both wrote a poem about this sort of situation. Rochester's The Imperfect Enjoyment is from the male perspective and is full of the man furiously blaming the woman for what (didn't) happen, while Behn's The Disappointment was considered quite scandalous* for concentrating on the woman's desire and her subsequent frustration.
(*As Aphra constantly complained, what was fine for a man to write about was automatically scandalous if a woman did.)
Interestingly, there are echoes of The Imperfect Enjoyment in how Philander describes the situation---the same sense of violence and the use of military imagery.
At the time the power imbalance between the sexes was quite extreme, and Behn tended to use moments like this to even the score a little, at least in the artistic sense. It was also a warning. When a situation like this was used in a context of political allegory, it was usually intended to suggest a broader sort of "failure"---broken promises, inadequate leadership. By having the stand-in for Lord Grey stricken by impotence, Behn is again warning against the likely consequences of a Monmouth monarchy.
So though we are certainly meant to snicker at Philander's failure, there are some more serious implications behind this bit of farce. (To put it in modern parlance, "His mouth is writing cheques that his butt can't cash.")
But purely in story terms, again we get a sense of the conflict between the reality of Sylvia and the fantasy of Sylvia. On one hand we have this vision of Sylvia as "the trembling prey", on the other we have the scattering of twisted battle terms - "love's long sieges", "loose and silken counterscarps", "the sacred fort". Clearly he is still taken up with his image of Sylvia as something to be "vanquish'd". He harps on her "fainting" and "trembling", how "defenceless" she is. And then what happens?
I saw the ravishing maid as much inflamed as I; she burnt with equal fire, with equal languishment: not all her care could keep the sparks concealed, but it broke out in every word and look...
In other words, Sylvia meets him halfway, with a passion equal to his own---and it puts him off. His fantasy and his reality part company. He doesn't want an equal partner, he wants a victim to be "overcome". Confronted by an eager, aroused woman, he can't perform.
81lauralkeet
>80 lyzard: he can't perform.
Aha, that's the confirmation I was looking for. I could tell their assignation did not go ... Erm ... Quite as he hoped, but I wasn't completely sure whether there was a performance issue. Serves him right.
Aha, that's the confirmation I was looking for. I could tell their assignation did not go ... Erm ... Quite as he hoped, but I wasn't completely sure whether there was a performance issue. Serves him right.
83souloftherose
>80 lyzard: 'In other words, Sylvia meets him halfway, with a passion equal to his own---and it puts him off.'
Ah, thank you Liz. I'd picked up on the performance issue but wasn't really sure what had caused it.
Ah, thank you Liz. I'd picked up on the performance issue but wasn't really sure what had caused it.
84lyzard
We-ee-ell... It's not explicit; Philander himself probably doesn't realise what happened; but I think the language that Behn uses in describing his difficulties encourages us to interpret it that way.
85Smiler69
>83 souloftherose: Yes, thanks for pointing that part out Liz, I did pick it up when Philander mentioned it in his letter, but it didn't jump out at me as it should. Knowing Aphra Behn's feminist point of view, it makes perfect sense to me that she would have chosen this to be the reason for his lack of ability to perform. It also makes sense within the text, since as you put it, the actual woman he confronts has little to do with the fantasy of the helpless victim he's dreamt up in his mind. I was not exactly shocked, but quite amazed at just how explicit it was in the text how clear it was made that he had failed to meet expectations, as it were.
86lauralkeet
>85 Smiler69: I was amazed too, Ilana, to the point where I questioned my interpretation -- did that really happen? I guess I've come to this with some sort of bias or assumptions about literature from this period.
Oh, and does anyone else have Meat Loaf's "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" running through their head? :)
Oh, and does anyone else have Meat Loaf's "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" running through their head? :)
87Smiler69
>86 lauralkeet: does anyone else have Meat Loaf's "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" running through their head?
Hmmm... had to look it up on YouTube as I'm not familiar with this band. I wouldn't have associated them with 17th century literature myself mind you... ;-)
Back to the initial point, I haven't read much early literature yet, not from the 18th century either, other than Les Liaisons Dangereuses, which is now among my all-time favourites, but I do intend to read Fanny Hill some time soon and apparently that is filled with quite graphic sexual details. I guess the censors were not always on duty in those days!
eta: oops, make that censors with a c!
Hmmm... had to look it up on YouTube as I'm not familiar with this band. I wouldn't have associated them with 17th century literature myself mind you... ;-)
Back to the initial point, I haven't read much early literature yet, not from the 18th century either, other than Les Liaisons Dangereuses, which is now among my all-time favourites, but I do intend to read Fanny Hill some time soon and apparently that is filled with quite graphic sexual details. I guess the censors were not always on duty in those days!
eta: oops, make that censors with a c!
88lyzard
Except in the song she tells him to stop. :)
The publishing world was a very different place in the 17th century - and it was very different from country to country, too. In England there was not a censor, as such, but everything had to receive a licence to be published. BUT---remember that at the time "fiction" was quite a new thing. Licensing was a political watchdog, on the whole, intended to keep attacks upon the king and his supporters to a minimum, and chiefly focused on political pamphlets. The idea that someone could use fiction to make a political point was quite new; and if you read some of the other romans à clef of the time, it is astonishing what they were allowed to get away with. That said, things tightened up after the Rye House Plot and there was a crackdown on political writing.
Aphra herself got into trouble for one of her plays. She was a royalist, so on the whole she was allowed to write politically, and a couple of her plays from the early 1680s were very explicitly political. However, she overstepped with one of them, when she added an epilogue attacking Monmouth for his disloyalty to Charles. It was bad timing, since Charles and Monmouth had just made up after one of their estrangements, and Charles wasn't feeling tolerant---so Aphra and the actress who spoke her lines got arrested. But basically it was just a slap on the wrist, a warning to be more careful. Of course, by the time Aphra wrote the first volume of Love-Letters, less vulnerable anyway because it was prose and not drama, it was after the Rye House Plot and Charles had lost interest in defending Monmouth.
All that said, there was occasional censorship - or refusal of a licence - on the grounds of sexual or scatological content. Most famously, when Richard Head first submitted The English Rogue for licensing in 1664 it was rejected for being "too much smutty". The book as published still contains a lot of sexual content, though the descriptions are not at all graphic.
So it needs to be remembered that things were *less* uptight generally at this time; or rather, people got uptight about politics, not sex. Across the 18th century, there is still plenty of sex in English writing, but it gradually became unacceptable for women to write about it---there was a profound shift in the social mores across that century. On the other hand, Henry Fielding could get away with turning Tom Jones and his bed-hopping into a comedy, and feature in Amelia a syphilitic character who goes around deliberately infecting women.
At the same time, Fanny Hill is outright pornography; it was an underground book, a banned book; John Cleland got arrested for writing it, and various book dealers got arrested for selling it.
The publishing world was a very different place in the 17th century - and it was very different from country to country, too. In England there was not a censor, as such, but everything had to receive a licence to be published. BUT---remember that at the time "fiction" was quite a new thing. Licensing was a political watchdog, on the whole, intended to keep attacks upon the king and his supporters to a minimum, and chiefly focused on political pamphlets. The idea that someone could use fiction to make a political point was quite new; and if you read some of the other romans à clef of the time, it is astonishing what they were allowed to get away with. That said, things tightened up after the Rye House Plot and there was a crackdown on political writing.
Aphra herself got into trouble for one of her plays. She was a royalist, so on the whole she was allowed to write politically, and a couple of her plays from the early 1680s were very explicitly political. However, she overstepped with one of them, when she added an epilogue attacking Monmouth for his disloyalty to Charles. It was bad timing, since Charles and Monmouth had just made up after one of their estrangements, and Charles wasn't feeling tolerant---so Aphra and the actress who spoke her lines got arrested. But basically it was just a slap on the wrist, a warning to be more careful. Of course, by the time Aphra wrote the first volume of Love-Letters, less vulnerable anyway because it was prose and not drama, it was after the Rye House Plot and Charles had lost interest in defending Monmouth.
All that said, there was occasional censorship - or refusal of a licence - on the grounds of sexual or scatological content. Most famously, when Richard Head first submitted The English Rogue for licensing in 1664 it was rejected for being "too much smutty". The book as published still contains a lot of sexual content, though the descriptions are not at all graphic.
So it needs to be remembered that things were *less* uptight generally at this time; or rather, people got uptight about politics, not sex. Across the 18th century, there is still plenty of sex in English writing, but it gradually became unacceptable for women to write about it---there was a profound shift in the social mores across that century. On the other hand, Henry Fielding could get away with turning Tom Jones and his bed-hopping into a comedy, and feature in Amelia a syphilitic character who goes around deliberately infecting women.
At the same time, Fanny Hill is outright pornography; it was an underground book, a banned book; John Cleland got arrested for writing it, and various book dealers got arrested for selling it.
89Smiler69
Oh my! I didn't know Fanny Hill was quite as bad as that... maybe I should think twice about reading it. Does is actually have any literary merit?
90lyzard
Its main claim to fame is that it was the first pornographic work written as a novel, with a story. (Though of course it was also famous for its, ahem, illustrations.) I don't think it has much literary merit, as such, but it this case it's possibly not the kind of thing one person can judge for another. Personally I find it all rather tedious.
But as long as you enjoy descriptions of very large penises, you'll be fine! :D
But as long as you enjoy descriptions of very large penises, you'll be fine! :D
91Smiler69
>90 lyzard: No, my interest in sex vanished completely when I started taking anti-depressants, wouldn't you know! One less book to bother with, I guess!
92lyzard
There certainly wouldn't be much left of it if you took the sex scenes out, that's for sure. :)
93Smiler69
Lol! And here I was honestly thinking it was actual literature which just happened to have lots of sex in it!
94souloftherose
>88 lyzard: Thanks for the background Liz.
>90 lyzard: 'But as long as you enjoy descriptions of very large penises, you'll be fine! :D' *snort*
No questions on the next very short letter from Philander to Sylvia.
Letter from Cesario to Philander, starting p58 of VMC edition with 'I'll allow you, my dear, to be very fond of so much beauty as the world must own adorns the lovely Sylvia''
40. 'I'll allow you, my dear, to be very fond of so much beauty as the world must own adorns the lovely Sylvia'
So Cesario knows about the love affair? I hadn't realised that. Isn't that a bit dangerous?
41. There are a lot of very affectionate phrases in this letter which made it almost sound like a love letter ('my dear', 'in my arms'). Was this normal for the time?
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p58 of VMC edition with 'Ah! What have I done, Philander, and where shall I hide my guilty blushing face?''
42. Sylvia's main concern is the letter seems to be that she has lost her honour by allowing Philander to seduce her (or nearly seduce her). She took so long to refer to the performance issues that I was wondering if she had even noticed!
43. 'nor ever believe thy dear deluding vows; never thy charming perjured oaths, after a violation like to this'
Because he'd promised not to seduce her?
44. 'I am the aggressor still; else why is not every living maid undone that does but touch or see thee? Tell me why? No, the fault is in me, and thou art innocent.'
I think this ties in with your comment in >80 lyzard:. Would this have been considered scandalous or blameworthy behaviour by Sylvia?
45. 'when you saw the store, and found the prize no richer, with what contempt, (yes false, dear man) with what contemot you view'd the unvalu'd trophy'
Does Sylvia think Philander stopped because she was too easily seduced?
>90 lyzard: 'But as long as you enjoy descriptions of very large penises, you'll be fine! :D' *snort*
No questions on the next very short letter from Philander to Sylvia.
Letter from Cesario to Philander, starting p58 of VMC edition with 'I'll allow you, my dear, to be very fond of so much beauty as the world must own adorns the lovely Sylvia''
40. 'I'll allow you, my dear, to be very fond of so much beauty as the world must own adorns the lovely Sylvia'
So Cesario knows about the love affair? I hadn't realised that. Isn't that a bit dangerous?
41. There are a lot of very affectionate phrases in this letter which made it almost sound like a love letter ('my dear', 'in my arms'). Was this normal for the time?
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p58 of VMC edition with 'Ah! What have I done, Philander, and where shall I hide my guilty blushing face?''
42. Sylvia's main concern is the letter seems to be that she has lost her honour by allowing Philander to seduce her (or nearly seduce her). She took so long to refer to the performance issues that I was wondering if she had even noticed!
43. 'nor ever believe thy dear deluding vows; never thy charming perjured oaths, after a violation like to this'
Because he'd promised not to seduce her?
44. 'I am the aggressor still; else why is not every living maid undone that does but touch or see thee? Tell me why? No, the fault is in me, and thou art innocent.'
I think this ties in with your comment in >80 lyzard:. Would this have been considered scandalous or blameworthy behaviour by Sylvia?
45. 'when you saw the store, and found the prize no richer, with what contempt, (yes false, dear man) with what contemot you view'd the unvalu'd trophy'
Does Sylvia think Philander stopped because she was too easily seduced?
95lyzard
Letter from Cesario to Philander, starting p58 of VMC edition with 'I'll allow you, my dear, to be very fond of so much beauty as the world must own adorns the lovely Sylvia''
40. Yes, it's very dangerous, particularly for Sylvia.
So another of Philander's sterling qualities is that he likes to talk about his love affairs - even when he's busy trying to seduce his wife's young sister. On the other hand, note that Cesario is quite off-hand about the situation.
The other thing to take away here is that Philander, already betraying his king, is now neglecting the promises he made to Cesario.
41. It was normal in Aphra Behn's writing. There often is a note of homoeroticism in the relations between her men, and we will see more of this going forward. It tends to suggest a society where the "real" relationships were between men and women were just a trivial diversion.
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p58 of VMC edition with 'Ah! What have I done, Philander, and where shall I hide my guilty blushing face?''
42. She's taken up with the embarrassments of her own situation, not really thinking about his. Or rather, she's blaming herself for his.
43. Yes, although we might question whether she really believed he ever intended keeping that promise.
44. Yes---in a way she has bought into his (or possibly we could say, society's) view of the relative positions of man and woman. Instead of being shy, timid, shrinking, the very fact that she is experiencing desire puts her in the wrong (in her own mind).
45. No, she has concluded miserably that what he found under her clothing wasn't sufficient exciting.
I still think the answer lies elsewhere, and actually Sylvia herself says it. As well as calling herself "the aggressor" (as per your quote in 44), she goes on to talk about "my furious passion", "my unknown shameful flame":
I have wishes, new, unwonted wishes, at every thought of thee I find a strange disorder in my blood, that pants and burns in every vein...
40. Yes, it's very dangerous, particularly for Sylvia.
So another of Philander's sterling qualities is that he likes to talk about his love affairs - even when he's busy trying to seduce his wife's young sister. On the other hand, note that Cesario is quite off-hand about the situation.
The other thing to take away here is that Philander, already betraying his king, is now neglecting the promises he made to Cesario.
41. It was normal in Aphra Behn's writing. There often is a note of homoeroticism in the relations between her men, and we will see more of this going forward. It tends to suggest a society where the "real" relationships were between men and women were just a trivial diversion.
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p58 of VMC edition with 'Ah! What have I done, Philander, and where shall I hide my guilty blushing face?''
42. She's taken up with the embarrassments of her own situation, not really thinking about his. Or rather, she's blaming herself for his.
43. Yes, although we might question whether she really believed he ever intended keeping that promise.
44. Yes---in a way she has bought into his (or possibly we could say, society's) view of the relative positions of man and woman. Instead of being shy, timid, shrinking, the very fact that she is experiencing desire puts her in the wrong (in her own mind).
45. No, she has concluded miserably that what he found under her clothing wasn't sufficient exciting.
I still think the answer lies elsewhere, and actually Sylvia herself says it. As well as calling herself "the aggressor" (as per your quote in 44), she goes on to talk about "my furious passion", "my unknown shameful flame":
I have wishes, new, unwonted wishes, at every thought of thee I find a strange disorder in my blood, that pants and burns in every vein...
96souloftherose
And I am glad that week is over!
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p65 of VMC edition with 'As my page was coming with the enclosed''
46. 'Come in your chariot'
Did they have chariots then? Or is Sylvia imagining this as more romantic?
No questions on the next few letters between Sylvia and Philander (although lots of eye-rolling)
Letter from Henrietta to Sylvia (To the Lady), starting on p70 of the VMC edition with 'Dear Child'
47. 'Long foreseeing the misery whereto you must arrive, by this fatal correspondence with my unhappy lord'
I didn't think she knew! How long has she known??
48. 'Consider, oh young noble maid, the infamy of being a prostitute!'
Would Sylvia really be considered a prostitute for having an affair with Philander or is Henrietta exaggerating? Sylvia's not being paid (as far as I understand)
49. 'by whom he has a dear and lovely off-spring'
Well, this letter's just one surprise after another! Henrietta and Philander have a child?
50. 'He once thought me as lovely, lay at my feet, and sighed away his soul'
Yep. And in ten years time he'll find another 17 year old as lovely....
51. 'The griefs and dishonour of our noble parents, who have been eminent for virtue and piety'
Ha! Guess she doesn't know about her father's tryst with Melinda.
No comments on the next letter to Philander.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p73 of VMC edition with 'Yes, my adorable Sylvia, I will pursue you no further'
52. 'make what haste you can, you will find there stretched out the mangled carcase of the lost Philander'
Don't fall for it Sylvia!
No questions on the next short letter from Sylvia to Philander.
Currently on p74 of VMC edition.
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p65 of VMC edition with 'As my page was coming with the enclosed''
46. 'Come in your chariot'
Did they have chariots then? Or is Sylvia imagining this as more romantic?
No questions on the next few letters between Sylvia and Philander (although lots of eye-rolling)
Letter from Henrietta to Sylvia (To the Lady), starting on p70 of the VMC edition with 'Dear Child'
47. 'Long foreseeing the misery whereto you must arrive, by this fatal correspondence with my unhappy lord'
I didn't think she knew! How long has she known??
48. 'Consider, oh young noble maid, the infamy of being a prostitute!'
Would Sylvia really be considered a prostitute for having an affair with Philander or is Henrietta exaggerating? Sylvia's not being paid (as far as I understand)
49. 'by whom he has a dear and lovely off-spring'
Well, this letter's just one surprise after another! Henrietta and Philander have a child?
50. 'He once thought me as lovely, lay at my feet, and sighed away his soul'
Yep. And in ten years time he'll find another 17 year old as lovely....
51. 'The griefs and dishonour of our noble parents, who have been eminent for virtue and piety'
Ha! Guess she doesn't know about her father's tryst with Melinda.
No comments on the next letter to Philander.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p73 of VMC edition with 'Yes, my adorable Sylvia, I will pursue you no further'
52. 'make what haste you can, you will find there stretched out the mangled carcase of the lost Philander'
Don't fall for it Sylvia!
No questions on the next short letter from Sylvia to Philander.
Currently on p74 of VMC edition.
97lyzard
I am glad that week is over!
Know all about weeks like those. :(
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p65 of VMC edition with 'As my page was coming with the enclosed''
46. She would mean a light carriage that he drives himself.
The most important thing about those few letters is that again, having made all sorts of promises to Cesario, Philander then just ignores his obligations. Sylvia ought to be thinking about the implications of that behaviour.
Letter fromHenrietta Myrtilla to Sylvia (To the Lady), starting on p70 of the VMC edition with 'Dear Child'
47. We don't know. But she probably recognises the symptoms in both of them.
48. She means having sex unmarried, being someone's mistress.
49. They've been married ten years, remember.
In fact, Lord Grey and Lady Mary had two daughters.
50. Ten years' time? You're an optimist! :)
51. Fooling around with servants doesn't count in that respect, for some reason. And, as always, a woman's transgression is infinitely more "dishonourable" than a man's.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p73 of VMC edition with 'Yes, my adorable Sylvia, I will pursue you no further'
52. Yes, you'd hope that even an inexperienced 17-year-old wouldn't fall for that crap, but... {*eye-roll*}
Know all about weeks like those. :(
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p65 of VMC edition with 'As my page was coming with the enclosed''
46. She would mean a light carriage that he drives himself.
The most important thing about those few letters is that again, having made all sorts of promises to Cesario, Philander then just ignores his obligations. Sylvia ought to be thinking about the implications of that behaviour.
Letter from
47. We don't know. But she probably recognises the symptoms in both of them.
48. She means having sex unmarried, being someone's mistress.
49. They've been married ten years, remember.
In fact, Lord Grey and Lady Mary had two daughters.
50. Ten years' time? You're an optimist! :)
51. Fooling around with servants doesn't count in that respect, for some reason. And, as always, a woman's transgression is infinitely more "dishonourable" than a man's.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p73 of VMC edition with 'Yes, my adorable Sylvia, I will pursue you no further'
52. Yes, you'd hope that even an inexperienced 17-year-old wouldn't fall for that crap, but... {*eye-roll*}
98lauralkeet
Welcome back Heather! I read up to page 86 this week. I can't say I had specific questions while reading, but I enjoy the learning more about details you pick up in the text. I'm currently nearing the end of my other book, a mystery, and will likely give that my full attention until I finish, but I'm looking forward to getting back to Philander & Sylvia.
99souloftherose
>97 lyzard: 'They've been married ten years, remember.' Yes, it would be more unusual if they didn't have any children but because none had been mentioned I think I'd assumed that meant there weren't any.
I think this goes back to your comment in >43 lyzard: 'she doesn't have here correspondents telling each other things that they must already know, in order to inform the reader. Instead, she leaves it to the reader to try and infer the details.'
>98 lauralkeet: Thanks Laura. I'm up to p84 now and have another batch of questions for Liz coming up.
I think this goes back to your comment in >43 lyzard: 'she doesn't have here correspondents telling each other things that they must already know, in order to inform the reader. Instead, she leaves it to the reader to try and infer the details.'
>98 lauralkeet: Thanks Laura. I'm up to p84 now and have another batch of questions for Liz coming up.
100souloftherose
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p74 of VMC edition with 'Oh, my charming Philander!'
A duel! How exciting!
53. 'he saw Foscario pass him unattended'
Has Foscario been mentioned before?
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p76 of VMC edition with 'Ah, Syvlia, how have you in oe day destroyed that repose'
54. 'how was I welcomed? With your confirming billet'
Which letter? The one where Sylvia tells him to go to Cesario?
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p79 of VMC edition with 'And can you be jealous of me, Philander?'
55. 'But it is a brother I pursue, it is a sister gives her honour up, and none but Canace, that ever I read in story, was ever found so wretched as to love a brother with so criminal a flame, and possible I may meet her fate. I have a father too as great as AEolus'
Who were Canace and AEolus?
No questions on the next two letters - now on p84 of the VMC edition.
A duel! How exciting!
53. 'he saw Foscario pass him unattended'
Has Foscario been mentioned before?
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p76 of VMC edition with 'Ah, Syvlia, how have you in oe day destroyed that repose'
54. 'how was I welcomed? With your confirming billet'
Which letter? The one where Sylvia tells him to go to Cesario?
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p79 of VMC edition with 'And can you be jealous of me, Philander?'
55. 'But it is a brother I pursue, it is a sister gives her honour up, and none but Canace, that ever I read in story, was ever found so wretched as to love a brother with so criminal a flame, and possible I may meet her fate. I have a father too as great as AEolus'
Who were Canace and AEolus?
No questions on the next two letters - now on p84 of the VMC edition.
101lyzard
>99 souloftherose: I think at this time, and particularly amongst the aristocracy, children were neither seen nor heard. I any event they tend to be regarded as "just something that happens", so they are very often not mentioned.
But yes, Myrtilla might well use their child as another argument / weapon.
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p74 of VMC edition with 'Oh, my charming Philander!'
The problem here is that the relationship is supposed to be a deathly secret, with Sylvia's honour, at least, at stake; yet all Philander is concerned about is his own "imaginary" version of events - does he REALLY think Sylvia has just been stringing him along?? - which leads him to betray the situation to Foscario by his violent reaction to him.
53. No, we haven't heard of him before but it is not surprising that Sylvia's parents are beginning to think about arranging her marriage.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p76 of VMC edition with 'Ah, Sylvia, how have you in one day destroyed that repose'
54. No, the one where she just tells him to go away ("Ask me not, my dearest brother...", pg 72 VCM), written in reaction to the letter from Myrtilla.
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p79 of VMC edition with 'And can you be jealous of me, Philander?'
55. These are characters from Greek mythology; Canace was the daughter of Aeolus, the lord of the winds. She was also the lover of her own brother (blood brother, not legal brother), Macareus, and bore his child. Her father found out and forced her to commit suicide.
Sylvia is imagining herself possibly meeting a similar fate (for a similar transgression), if her father finds out.
But yes, Myrtilla might well use their child as another argument / weapon.
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p74 of VMC edition with 'Oh, my charming Philander!'
The problem here is that the relationship is supposed to be a deathly secret, with Sylvia's honour, at least, at stake; yet all Philander is concerned about is his own "imaginary" version of events - does he REALLY think Sylvia has just been stringing him along?? - which leads him to betray the situation to Foscario by his violent reaction to him.
53. No, we haven't heard of him before but it is not surprising that Sylvia's parents are beginning to think about arranging her marriage.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting p76 of VMC edition with 'Ah, Sylvia, how have you in one day destroyed that repose'
54. No, the one where she just tells him to go away ("Ask me not, my dearest brother...", pg 72 VCM), written in reaction to the letter from Myrtilla.
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting p79 of VMC edition with 'And can you be jealous of me, Philander?'
55. These are characters from Greek mythology; Canace was the daughter of Aeolus, the lord of the winds. She was also the lover of her own brother (blood brother, not legal brother), Macareus, and bore his child. Her father found out and forced her to commit suicide.
Sylvia is imagining herself possibly meeting a similar fate (for a similar transgression), if her father finds out.
102lauralkeet
>100 souloftherose: >101 lyzard: Thanks for clearing up the Foscario question. I checked the character list on this thread, and flipped around the book a bit, and didn't find any mention so assumed he was an ancillary figure. But I'm glad you confirmed that, Liz.
103lauralkeet
Just popping in to say I finished part I today. Things really got moving after page 84 (nudge nudge again), and perhaps I also got into the rhythm of the language, because I found it fairly easy going. And it was all quite dramatic!
104souloftherose
Nearly there - I'm now on p98 and would have finished Part I yesterday if I hadn't been so sleepy....
No questions, just comments:
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting on p84 of VMC edition with 'After the happy night'
56. 'After the happy night'
*wink, wink, nudge, nudge*
57. 'still warm and fragrant with the sweet remains that thou hast left behind thee on the pillow'
Ew.
58. 'if ever I see repentance in thy face, a coldness in they eyes (which heaven divert) by that bright heaven I will die'
Do either of them survive until the end of the book? If so, I will be very disappointed.
No comments on the next few letters until...
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p92 of VMC edition with 'My adorable Sylvia'
59. 'Know my angel, that passing thourgh the garden this morning, I met erasto - I fear he saw me near enough to know me, and will give an account of it; let me know what happens;
Aargh! And you didn't think it might be worth staying to check she was ok?!? And who wouldn't leave early when she asked you to??
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p94 of VMC edition with 'Raving and mad at the news your billet brought me'
60. 'Oh Sylvia, faithless, perjured, charming Sylvia'
How is any of this her fault?? (This applies to the whole letter really)
No questions, just comments:
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting on p84 of VMC edition with 'After the happy night'
56. 'After the happy night'
*wink, wink, nudge, nudge*
57. 'still warm and fragrant with the sweet remains that thou hast left behind thee on the pillow'
Ew.
58. 'if ever I see repentance in thy face, a coldness in they eyes (which heaven divert) by that bright heaven I will die'
Do either of them survive until the end of the book? If so, I will be very disappointed.
No comments on the next few letters until...
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p92 of VMC edition with 'My adorable Sylvia'
59. 'Know my angel, that passing thourgh the garden this morning, I met erasto - I fear he saw me near enough to know me, and will give an account of it; let me know what happens;
Aargh! And you didn't think it might be worth staying to check she was ok?!? And who wouldn't leave early when she asked you to??
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p94 of VMC edition with 'Raving and mad at the news your billet brought me'
60. 'Oh Sylvia, faithless, perjured, charming Sylvia'
How is any of this her fault?? (This applies to the whole letter really)
105lauralkeet
>104 souloftherose: I love your "ew" comment !! I also liked the "Sylvia's father freaks out" letter (I don't have my book with me so I'm not sure the page #), especially his shock at her disheveled bed.
This was all surprisingly titillating. Like the horror in Hitchcock films, where you don't see everything and that almost makes it more scary, these scenes in some ways are more erotic than modern, graphic descriptions.
This was all surprisingly titillating. Like the horror in Hitchcock films, where you don't see everything and that almost makes it more scary, these scenes in some ways are more erotic than modern, graphic descriptions.
106lyzard
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting on p84 of VMC edition with 'After the happy night'
57. Yes, I don't think she means what it sounds like she means! :D
58. Unfortunately, the more people talk about dying the less they tend to do it...
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p92 of VMC edition with 'My adorable Sylvia'
59. Does he ever do anything she asks him to? His not hanging around I can excuse as there was a chance he had not been spotted, but as you say, he shouldn't have still been there.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p94 of VMC edition with 'Raving and mad at the news your billet brought me'
60. EVERYTHING is ALWAYS the woman's fault; don't tell me you don't know that!?
57. Yes, I don't think she means what it sounds like she means! :D
58. Unfortunately, the more people talk about dying the less they tend to do it...
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p92 of VMC edition with 'My adorable Sylvia'
59. Does he ever do anything she asks him to? His not hanging around I can excuse as there was a chance he had not been spotted, but as you say, he shouldn't have still been there.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p94 of VMC edition with 'Raving and mad at the news your billet brought me'
60. EVERYTHING is ALWAYS the woman's fault; don't tell me you don't know that!?
107lyzard
The whole business with Sylvia's father here just makes my hair stand on end. First he reads a letter not just revealing that his daughter is having an affair, but describing her losing her virginity to her own brother-in-law, and then he gets to her room where she hasn't made the bed - !!!!
Behn's attempts to describe female desire, particularly the earlier passages of Sylvia's anticipation, are pretty much unique not just for this time but for centuries afterwards. Her insistence not just upon the reality but the strength of that desire was one of the things that got her into trouble with public opinion, and increasingly so into the future where changing social mores saw "woman" slowly evolve into a sexless construct. The fact that Sylvia cannot even pretend to herself that she feels guilty or remorseful is another challenging aspect of this writing; what we're given is human reaction outside a framework of ethics and/or religion.
Behn's attempts to describe female desire, particularly the earlier passages of Sylvia's anticipation, are pretty much unique not just for this time but for centuries afterwards. Her insistence not just upon the reality but the strength of that desire was one of the things that got her into trouble with public opinion, and increasingly so into the future where changing social mores saw "woman" slowly evolve into a sexless construct. The fact that Sylvia cannot even pretend to herself that she feels guilty or remorseful is another challenging aspect of this writing; what we're given is human reaction outside a framework of ethics and/or religion.
108Smiler69
'still warm and fragrant with the sweet remains that thou hast left behind thee on the pillow'
I guess our interpretation of that shows our modern sensibilities! I thought "Ew!" too!
EVERYTHING is ALWAYS the woman's fault
Yeah, no kidding.
I'm loving the pace Heather is setting; it's allowing me to keep up, otherwise I'd probably struggle. I'm just as sleepy as she is lately it seems!
I guess our interpretation of that shows our modern sensibilities! I thought "Ew!" too!
EVERYTHING is ALWAYS the woman's fault
Yeah, no kidding.
I'm loving the pace Heather is setting; it's allowing me to keep up, otherwise I'd probably struggle. I'm just as sleepy as she is lately it seems!
109Smiler69
Liz, I'm rushing to finish the first volume—well, not really rushing since I've only less than 20 pages to go, but I realize we won't be able to count it toward the September TIOLI anyway since, for the purposes of my challenge, in order for it to meet the parameters, we really were talking about the complete Virago edition (which had 0 reviews and more than 15 mentions). The individual volumes aren't even listed on LT and therefore have had zero mentions and wouldn't fit in my challenge... :-(
This just dawned on me at the last moment, more or less. Ah well. Doesn't take away from the book, but too bad about the TIOLI!
This just dawned on me at the last moment, more or less. Ah well. Doesn't take away from the book, but too bad about the TIOLI!
110lyzard
Ah, yes! - the old "I can't fit my own challenge!" conundrum - I'm sure we've all been there at one time or another! There is nothing more exasperating!! :D
You would be correct in manually adding the first volume as an individual book, and listing it in another challenge, if you wanted to - it was published originally as a standalone work.
Otherwise, at least the collected work does fit a couple of challenges this month.
You would be correct in manually adding the first volume as an individual book, and listing it in another challenge, if you wanted to - it was published originally as a standalone work.
Otherwise, at least the collected work does fit a couple of challenges this month.
111Smiler69
You would be correct in manually adding the first volume as an individual book, and listing it in another challenge, if you wanted to
Such as September TIOLI #7: Read a book that you didn't know was a sequel or part of a series when you acquired it?
Such as September TIOLI #7: Read a book that you didn't know was a sequel or part of a series when you acquired it?
112lauralkeet
I didn't realize there were no reviews for this book yet. We must remedy that! I'm also surprised to see the average rating is oly 2.5. Mind you, if I were reading this untutored I might have abandoned it, and even so it's not going to make my "favorites" list, but 2.5 seems harsh.
113lyzard
>111 Smiler69: Heh! Yes, you could certainly do that---though I do promise I wasn't thinking of my challenge when I said that!!
>112 lauralkeet: Laura, that's exactly why I suggested a tutored read. I worked through it myself several years ago for my blog and researched whatever seemed to need it, and was astonished at how much I'd missed on my first "cold" read years back. It's such an important book, but on the other hand so very deeply rooted in its own time---it makes it very difficult.
>112 lauralkeet: Laura, that's exactly why I suggested a tutored read. I worked through it myself several years ago for my blog and researched whatever seemed to need it, and was astonished at how much I'd missed on my first "cold" read years back. It's such an important book, but on the other hand so very deeply rooted in its own time---it makes it very difficult.
115souloftherose
>107 lyzard: Fascinating comments Liz. You're highlighting a lot of things that I don't think I would have picked up on my own.
>111 Smiler69: I finished volume I yesterday and I would be happy moving the book to TIOLI #7, Ilana.
A few final questions/comments to come this evening.
>111 Smiler69: I finished volume I yesterday and I would be happy moving the book to TIOLI #7, Ilana.
A few final questions/comments to come this evening.
116Smiler69
>115 souloftherose: Ok Heather, so I guess I'll do a manual entry for the first volume as well as for the other two today. When I've done that I'll move us both to challenge #7 and mark us as COMPLETED, so you needn't worry about that part. Then it's just a matter of fitting in the other two volumes into the appropriate challenges.
Are we moving straight into the second part? I sort of started reading it yesterday, but then though Liz might have some introductory words for us which might be helpful, so decided to hold off for now.
Are we moving straight into the second part? I sort of started reading it yesterday, but then though Liz might have some introductory words for us which might be helpful, so decided to hold off for now.
117lauralkeet
>116 Smiler69: Are we moving straight into the second part? I'm ready, too, whenever Heather & Liz are.
118souloftherose
>116 Smiler69: Thank you! (I was going to cheat by not creating a work for the separate volumes but just making it clear it was volume I only in the TIOLI challenge).
>116 Smiler69: & >117 lauralkeet: 'Are we moving straight into the second part?' Er, so this might be a good time to mention that I'm about to head off to a remote(ish) Scottish island for 10 days holiday (unlikely to be mobile phone signal or wifi). Sorry!
If anyone wants to take on the mantle of tutee they would be more than welcome to do so and I can catch up when I'm back.
>116 Smiler69: & >117 lauralkeet: 'Are we moving straight into the second part?' Er, so this might be a good time to mention that I'm about to head off to a remote(ish) Scottish island for 10 days holiday (unlikely to be mobile phone signal or wifi). Sorry!
If anyone wants to take on the mantle of tutee they would be more than welcome to do so and I can catch up when I'm back.
119Smiler69
>118 souloftherose: I was going to cheat by not creating a work for the separate volumes but just making it clear it was volume I only in the TIOLI challenge
Heather, I'm totally happy to follow your lead on that one if it saves me work! :-)
Also totally happy to wait for you to get back to continue with part 2 as have quite a bit of planned reading to do this month and don't at all mind a break before moving on. I do hope you plan on taking and sharing lots of pics of your Scottish Isle adventure!
Heather, I'm totally happy to follow your lead on that one if it saves me work! :-)
Also totally happy to wait for you to get back to continue with part 2 as have quite a bit of planned reading to do this month and don't at all mind a break before moving on. I do hope you plan on taking and sharing lots of pics of your Scottish Isle adventure!
120souloftherose
>119 Smiler69: 'Heather, I'm totally happy to follow your lead on that one if it saves me work! :-)' Let's do it! I've moved the two entries to TIOLI #7.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p101 of VMC edition with 'My life, my Sylvia, my eternal joy, art thou safe!'
61. 'just as we were fainting with loss of blood in each other's arms'
I loved this scene, it really made me smile.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p104 of VMC edition with 'From the Bastille'
62. 'I am, my Sylvia, arrested at the suit of Monsieur the Count, your father, for a rape on my lovely maid.'
As in >20 lyzard:, does the reference to rape mean the abduction of Sylvia rather than sex against her will or is there meant to be some form of violence implied? Would Sylvia be able to/allowed to testify if Philander was brought to trial?
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting on p105 of VMC edition with 'I am not at all surprised, my Philander'
63. 'I know she has plied him with her softening eloquence, her prayers and tears, to win him to consent to make a public business of it'
I can understand Myrtilla's spite and rage but why would she want this made public? Surely she would want it hushed up? Or will she do anything at this stage to stop Sylvia and Philander from being together?
Does Myrtilla care for Philander more than he realises?
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p110 of VMC edition with 'My eternal joy, my affliction is inexpressible at the news you send me'
64. 'to marry, Sylvia; yes, thou must marry'
I wish there were more options for women of the time than either being controlled by your father or being controlled by your husband. Although I suppose this shows that technically there were more options as in Sylvia's case: she will be controlled by her husband's master instead.
The problem is that Philander is at complete liberty to leave Sylvia at some later date if he wants to and she will still be married to Brilliard with no other rights. Bah.
Does this book have a happy ending??
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p101 of VMC edition with 'My life, my Sylvia, my eternal joy, art thou safe!'
61. 'just as we were fainting with loss of blood in each other's arms'
I loved this scene, it really made me smile.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p104 of VMC edition with 'From the Bastille'
62. 'I am, my Sylvia, arrested at the suit of Monsieur the Count, your father, for a rape on my lovely maid.'
As in >20 lyzard:, does the reference to rape mean the abduction of Sylvia rather than sex against her will or is there meant to be some form of violence implied? Would Sylvia be able to/allowed to testify if Philander was brought to trial?
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting on p105 of VMC edition with 'I am not at all surprised, my Philander'
63. 'I know she has plied him with her softening eloquence, her prayers and tears, to win him to consent to make a public business of it'
I can understand Myrtilla's spite and rage but why would she want this made public? Surely she would want it hushed up? Or will she do anything at this stage to stop Sylvia and Philander from being together?
Does Myrtilla care for Philander more than he realises?
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p110 of VMC edition with 'My eternal joy, my affliction is inexpressible at the news you send me'
64. 'to marry, Sylvia; yes, thou must marry'
I wish there were more options for women of the time than either being controlled by your father or being controlled by your husband. Although I suppose this shows that technically there were more options as in Sylvia's case: she will be controlled by her husband's master instead.
The problem is that Philander is at complete liberty to leave Sylvia at some later date if he wants to and she will still be married to Brilliard with no other rights. Bah.
Does this book have a happy ending??
121Smiler69
>120 souloftherose: Does this book have a happy ending??
Now you know what she'll reply to that, don't you? ;-)
Thanks for moving us to the appropriate TIOLI.
Now you know what she'll reply to that, don't you? ;-)
Thanks for moving us to the appropriate TIOLI.
122lyzard
(Yike! Okay, last things first...)
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p101 of VMC edition with 'My life, my Sylvia, my eternal joy, art thou safe!'
61. Oh, but again, Philander is MUCH more interested in dramatising himself (even to the point of getting injured) than he is in keeping Sylvia's secrets. Way to broadcast your affair to the world at large, Philander!
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p104 of VMC edition with 'From the Bastille'
62. No, basically what it means is "unlawful sex" - unlawful because of the in-law relationship between them (legally incestuous, as we discussed at the outset), and because it is adulterous.
Note that it is the Count who brings the suit---basically the charge is that Philander has damaged the Count's "property".
I'll come back to your question about Sylvia in a second...
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting on p105 of VMC edition with 'I am not at all surprised, my Philander'
63. There are a couple of possible answers to that. It might just be payback on Myrtilla's part, or just her way of making sure that the world knows it's Philander who's the bad guy. Remember I was saying with regard to the so-called affair between Lady Mary and the Duke of Monmouth (referenced here as Myrtilla's affair with Cesario), that no-one was sure if there *was* an affair, or whether Lord Grey had started the rumours himself to excuse his own behaviour? If Lady Mary / Myrtilla had been damaged by gossip, pressing her father to go public might have been her way of vindicating herself.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p110 of VMC edition with 'My eternal joy, my affliction is inexpressible at the news you send me'
64. Yes, it was only a matter of whose authority she was subject to.
Of course, the weird thing here is that when Henrietta Berkeley died, it was mentioned in her obituary that she "was never married". It is unknown whether her marriage to William Turner was a fake, or whether her family just preferred to pretend it never happened.
Does this book have a happy ending??
Well, just for Ilana, I will say---WAIT AND SEE. :)
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p101 of VMC edition with 'My life, my Sylvia, my eternal joy, art thou safe!'
61. Oh, but again, Philander is MUCH more interested in dramatising himself (even to the point of getting injured) than he is in keeping Sylvia's secrets. Way to broadcast your affair to the world at large, Philander!
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p104 of VMC edition with 'From the Bastille'
62. No, basically what it means is "unlawful sex" - unlawful because of the in-law relationship between them (legally incestuous, as we discussed at the outset), and because it is adulterous.
Note that it is the Count who brings the suit---basically the charge is that Philander has damaged the Count's "property".
I'll come back to your question about Sylvia in a second...
Letter from Sylvia to Philander, starting on p105 of VMC edition with 'I am not at all surprised, my Philander'
63. There are a couple of possible answers to that. It might just be payback on Myrtilla's part, or just her way of making sure that the world knows it's Philander who's the bad guy. Remember I was saying with regard to the so-called affair between Lady Mary and the Duke of Monmouth (referenced here as Myrtilla's affair with Cesario), that no-one was sure if there *was* an affair, or whether Lord Grey had started the rumours himself to excuse his own behaviour? If Lady Mary / Myrtilla had been damaged by gossip, pressing her father to go public might have been her way of vindicating herself.
Letter from Philander to Sylvia, starting on p110 of VMC edition with 'My eternal joy, my affliction is inexpressible at the news you send me'
64. Yes, it was only a matter of whose authority she was subject to.
Of course, the weird thing here is that when Henrietta Berkeley died, it was mentioned in her obituary that she "was never married". It is unknown whether her marriage to William Turner was a fake, or whether her family just preferred to pretend it never happened.
Does this book have a happy ending??
Well, just for Ilana, I will say---WAIT AND SEE. :)
123lyzard
Would Sylvia be able to/allowed to testify if Philander was brought to trial?
The transcripts of the trial are actually available online if you're interested.
Henrietta was in court for the trial and Grey's defence wanted her called as a witness (there was a legal brawl over who was actually concerned in stealing her away from her parents' house; five servants were on trial as well as Lord Grey). The Attorney-General objected to her being sworn on the witness on the grounds that her general behaviour had been so "criminal", getting her to testify would be tantamount to suborning perjury. The defence were trying to prove that she had run away from home, rather than been "abducted". In the end she was sworn and did testify, and insisted Grey had nothing to do with her leaving her parents' house, and refused to name the people who had helped her run away.
At the end of the trial, the Earl of Berkeley demanded that Henrietta be returned to him, and that was when Henrietta declared that she was married to William Turner and therefore could not be compelled to return to her parents. Turner then also testified that they were married, while the prosecution claimed he was already married to someone else. (It seems he was living with a woman and had children with her, but no-one could prove they were married.) There was then a rather undignified verbal spat over who "owned" Henrietta, which turned physical at the end of the trial with parties on both sides drawing their swords on each other over custody of her. In the end the judge ruled that she and Turner could leave together if they wanted, even though everyone knew that meant she'd be going straight back to Lord Grey.
The transcripts of the trial are actually available online if you're interested.
Henrietta was in court for the trial and Grey's defence wanted her called as a witness (there was a legal brawl over who was actually concerned in stealing her away from her parents' house; five servants were on trial as well as Lord Grey). The Attorney-General objected to her being sworn on the witness on the grounds that her general behaviour had been so "criminal", getting her to testify would be tantamount to suborning perjury. The defence were trying to prove that she had run away from home, rather than been "abducted". In the end she was sworn and did testify, and insisted Grey had nothing to do with her leaving her parents' house, and refused to name the people who had helped her run away.
At the end of the trial, the Earl of Berkeley demanded that Henrietta be returned to him, and that was when Henrietta declared that she was married to William Turner and therefore could not be compelled to return to her parents. Turner then also testified that they were married, while the prosecution claimed he was already married to someone else. (It seems he was living with a woman and had children with her, but no-one could prove they were married.) There was then a rather undignified verbal spat over who "owned" Henrietta, which turned physical at the end of the trial with parties on both sides drawing their swords on each other over custody of her. In the end the judge ruled that she and Turner could leave together if they wanted, even though everyone knew that meant she'd be going straight back to Lord Grey.
124lyzard
As for what happens next, I'm happy either to continue on or to take a break, whichever people prefer.
125lauralkeet
Heather, your holiday "off the grid" sounds wonderful. Enjoy!
I'm happy to wait for Heather's return too -- like Ilana I'm not lacking in reading material. Liz, if you have background for us on Part II perhaps you could share that with us while Heather is on holiday. Then I might have a peek at Part II but not go too far.
I'm happy to wait for Heather's return too -- like Ilana I'm not lacking in reading material. Liz, if you have background for us on Part II perhaps you could share that with us while Heather is on holiday. Then I might have a peek at Part II but not go too far.
126lyzard
Sounds like a plan!
Heather, what dates will you be away? As Laura suggests, I can set up a new thread around the time you're due back with the background information, and people can make a start when they want.
Heather, what dates will you be away? As Laura suggests, I can set up a new thread around the time you're due back with the background information, and people can make a start when they want.
127Smiler69
This first part has been a smashing success, I'd say. Thanks Liz, once again for making it so interesting.
Happy to see we're all literally on the same page. Now I'm back to square one as far as feeling nervous about the next part Liz, because you've made it sound like the rest would be so much more difficult, but I'm thinking you just set us up so we'd find it much easier compared to those manipulated expectations!
Happy to see we're all literally on the same page. Now I'm back to square one as far as feeling nervous about the next part Liz, because you've made it sound like the rest would be so much more difficult, but I'm thinking you just set us up so we'd find it much easier compared to those manipulated expectations!
128lyzard
:D
No, it wasn't that, honest! From my own experience 17th century prose can be difficult, although Behn is a better writer than many of her contemporaries. Volume 1 is, I think, the easiest of the three, because the exchange of letters acts like a dialogue, which of course as a playwright is what Behn was used to writing. Still, I've known people to struggle with it; it's great that you guys have found it so accessible.
However, Volume 2 switches to a combination of third-person prose and first-person letters. Prose at this time tended to be marked by very long sentences and paragraphs, in which modern readers sometimes lose their way. So you may or may not find it more difficult than Volume 1; I shall refrain from making any pronouncements on the subject! :)
No, it wasn't that, honest! From my own experience 17th century prose can be difficult, although Behn is a better writer than many of her contemporaries. Volume 1 is, I think, the easiest of the three, because the exchange of letters acts like a dialogue, which of course as a playwright is what Behn was used to writing. Still, I've known people to struggle with it; it's great that you guys have found it so accessible.
However, Volume 2 switches to a combination of third-person prose and first-person letters. Prose at this time tended to be marked by very long sentences and paragraphs, in which modern readers sometimes lose their way. So you may or may not find it more difficult than Volume 1; I shall refrain from making any pronouncements on the subject! :)
129lyzard
Found this while I was refreshing my memory about Lord Grey's trial - transcripts of the case were still being sold more than 30 years afterwards, apparently:
130souloftherose
>122 lyzard: 'WAIT AND SEE. :)'
Bah!
>126 lyzard: We're leaving this evening (if I can wake myself up and get packing) and returning on Tuesday 14th.
Bah!
>126 lyzard: We're leaving this evening (if I can wake myself up and get packing) and returning on Tuesday 14th.
131lyzard
Okay...I guess I should throw in a very quick, "DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY MORE COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS??"
Anyone? Anyone?
Anyone? Anyone?
132lauralkeet
Nope. :)
