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1Limelite
How do you interpret the meaning of today's speech by the Pontiff before Congress on the topics of:
Families
Social Justice
Our Common Home (Earth)
"Pro Life"
Gun Control
Historical American Values
The Common Good?
What message did you take away from the words he said on those topics? Since his remarks were intended for his political audience and the people of this country, what legislative positions do you think he supports?
I'm assuming people with no religious beliefs and those who do have them can share their understanding on equal footing.
Families
Social Justice
Our Common Home (Earth)
"Pro Life"
Gun Control
Historical American Values
The Common Good?
What message did you take away from the words he said on those topics? Since his remarks were intended for his political audience and the people of this country, what legislative positions do you think he supports?
I'm assuming people with no religious beliefs and those who do have them can share their understanding on equal footing.
2theoria
Families: who can be against them. Easy applause lines. Presumably not referring to families headed by same sex partners.
Social Justice: the selection of Dorothy Day as a representative of "American values" may have been controversial choice for free market loving conservatives (assuming they know who she was). The Catholic Worker Movement is way too socialist for a Republican listener.
Common Home: action on climate change wouldn't sit well with Republican science deniers (the entire party?). Santorum, Christie, and Jeb! have already told the Pontiff to mind his own business. The tepid Republican response contrasted strongly to their response to ...
Life: one Republican hooted when s/he thought the Pope was going to call for the abolition of abortion. When he said "the death penalty," the hoot turned shriek suddenly stopped. I can imagine there's a lot a disappointment on the religious conservative front, which doesn't associate the death penalty with the inviolable right to life.
Common Good: I don't think the Republican Party believes in this idea. Democrats and Communitarians will respond warmly to it.
Historical American Values: the selection of Lincoln and ML King won't go over well in some conservative circles.
You forgot Immigration: not a good topic for the majority Republican audience. Republicans don't view immigrants as numbers; they are viewed as criminals and job stealers. When the Pope said "When the stranger appears to us ... we must not repeat the sins and errors of the past," he was met with stony silence from Republicans side of the Congress.
Overall, the speech is likely music to the ears of the liberal minded; dismissible by those of the conservative bent. Republican proposed policies would work against nearly everything the Pope encouraged. Fox News spent more than five minutes spinning the Pope's speech to make it a win for Republicans, a futile, but entertaining, exercise.
Social Justice: the selection of Dorothy Day as a representative of "American values" may have been controversial choice for free market loving conservatives (assuming they know who she was). The Catholic Worker Movement is way too socialist for a Republican listener.
Common Home: action on climate change wouldn't sit well with Republican science deniers (the entire party?). Santorum, Christie, and Jeb! have already told the Pontiff to mind his own business. The tepid Republican response contrasted strongly to their response to ...
Life: one Republican hooted when s/he thought the Pope was going to call for the abolition of abortion. When he said "the death penalty," the hoot turned shriek suddenly stopped. I can imagine there's a lot a disappointment on the religious conservative front, which doesn't associate the death penalty with the inviolable right to life.
Common Good: I don't think the Republican Party believes in this idea. Democrats and Communitarians will respond warmly to it.
Historical American Values: the selection of Lincoln and ML King won't go over well in some conservative circles.
You forgot Immigration: not a good topic for the majority Republican audience. Republicans don't view immigrants as numbers; they are viewed as criminals and job stealers. When the Pope said "When the stranger appears to us ... we must not repeat the sins and errors of the past," he was met with stony silence from Republicans side of the Congress.
Overall, the speech is likely music to the ears of the liberal minded; dismissible by those of the conservative bent. Republican proposed policies would work against nearly everything the Pope encouraged. Fox News spent more than five minutes spinning the Pope's speech to make it a win for Republicans, a futile, but entertaining, exercise.
3timspalding
I have a certain amount of hope on this. Yes, the usual suspects bashed him, but he got a respectful listen for ideas that go strongly against some cherished nostrums, left and right. I mean, look, we had the Republican speaker weeping with joy (again, but that's another story) to be in the presence of someone with very different politics. And overall, I think he won the crowd over pretty well. The first line kicked that off.
Some on the right have inoculated themselves against everything he says—as CNN put it recently, he's been given the Obama treatment. But not all. And on the left, I think he's having an impact. It's not necessarily that leftists who like him are going to say "Gosh, maybe this charming fellow is right on abortion," but that, once one sees an transparently holy and well-meaning person who disagrees with you on some issues, well, it makes demonization harder. And if the Catholic left were to again take a real place within the Democratic party, that could only be to the good. (I say this as someone who would not consider myself a member of that Catholic left, fwiw.)
>2 theoria:
Both Day and Merton were controversial choices in their way—the former for politics, the latter for politics and theology. Day is, like the Pope himself, a two-edged sword for the left—she was passionately anti-abortion too. Again, I don't see that aspect of her views changing leftist minds, but I would hope that such examples might prompt people to work together six days a week, even if they disagree on the seventh. As for Merton, as someone said on Twitter, does this mean we can take the Merton books out of the closet again?
The abortion mention was vintage in many ways. The juxtaposition of abortion and the death penalty—which to the pope is no juxtaposition at all—may not change many minds within the hall, but it surely caused some fruitful cognitive dissonance. I'm not a big fan of Gingrich, but, post-talk, he's now saying he's more in favor of that ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/newt-gingrich-death-penalty-pope_56046ecbe4b... ). I also appreciated the Pope's mentioning that punishment must always have a hope of rehabilitation. Given the numbers involved, that's almost more important than the death penalty.
I have to take issue with "Historical American Values: the selection of Lincoln and ML King won't go over well in some conservative circles." The number of Conservatives who hate Lincoln is tiny—to be compared, for example, with leftists who hate MLK for some apparently conventional views on gays. You're never going to please the people who have no sense of context and proportion, and it's not even worth trying.
On immigration, yes, many Republicans see them as criminals. (Fewer as job stealers, although that has populist appeal, and is a worry to those Reagan Democrats who oppose illegal immigration.) I think he was absolutely dead-on.
As for decamping to be with homeless people after, that too is dead on. (I regret it only slightly, because my priest was to be at that lunch!) This guy is fundamentally recentering the Christian "brand." If Christianity is not constantly dwelling in radical, simple love, it's a joyless farrago of ideological opinions wrapped in obnoxious cultural gestures. That is, it's what many Americans think it is and what the worst Christians seem intent on demonstrating. The Pope is modeling a very different thing.
Some on the right have inoculated themselves against everything he says—as CNN put it recently, he's been given the Obama treatment. But not all. And on the left, I think he's having an impact. It's not necessarily that leftists who like him are going to say "Gosh, maybe this charming fellow is right on abortion," but that, once one sees an transparently holy and well-meaning person who disagrees with you on some issues, well, it makes demonization harder. And if the Catholic left were to again take a real place within the Democratic party, that could only be to the good. (I say this as someone who would not consider myself a member of that Catholic left, fwiw.)
>2 theoria:
Both Day and Merton were controversial choices in their way—the former for politics, the latter for politics and theology. Day is, like the Pope himself, a two-edged sword for the left—she was passionately anti-abortion too. Again, I don't see that aspect of her views changing leftist minds, but I would hope that such examples might prompt people to work together six days a week, even if they disagree on the seventh. As for Merton, as someone said on Twitter, does this mean we can take the Merton books out of the closet again?
The abortion mention was vintage in many ways. The juxtaposition of abortion and the death penalty—which to the pope is no juxtaposition at all—may not change many minds within the hall, but it surely caused some fruitful cognitive dissonance. I'm not a big fan of Gingrich, but, post-talk, he's now saying he's more in favor of that ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/newt-gingrich-death-penalty-pope_56046ecbe4b... ). I also appreciated the Pope's mentioning that punishment must always have a hope of rehabilitation. Given the numbers involved, that's almost more important than the death penalty.
I have to take issue with "Historical American Values: the selection of Lincoln and ML King won't go over well in some conservative circles." The number of Conservatives who hate Lincoln is tiny—to be compared, for example, with leftists who hate MLK for some apparently conventional views on gays. You're never going to please the people who have no sense of context and proportion, and it's not even worth trying.
On immigration, yes, many Republicans see them as criminals. (Fewer as job stealers, although that has populist appeal, and is a worry to those Reagan Democrats who oppose illegal immigration.) I think he was absolutely dead-on.
As for decamping to be with homeless people after, that too is dead on. (I regret it only slightly, because my priest was to be at that lunch!) This guy is fundamentally recentering the Christian "brand." If Christianity is not constantly dwelling in radical, simple love, it's a joyless farrago of ideological opinions wrapped in obnoxious cultural gestures. That is, it's what many Americans think it is and what the worst Christians seem intent on demonstrating. The Pope is modeling a very different thing.
4Limelite
>2 theoria:
In my mind, I lump it in Social Justice, since I don't think the Pope intimated social justice only for American citizens, rather the vulnerable citizens worldwide.
In my mind, I lump it in Social Justice, since I don't think the Pope intimated social justice only for American citizens, rather the vulnerable citizens worldwide.
5Limelite
>3 timspalding:
I thought Boehner was weeping with regret because Francis was the first in the string of popes he's invited to speak before Congress, even when not Speaker, who accepted.
Then I thought it was the natural reaction of a maudlin drunk. Then I thought they were the crocodile tears of a pseudo-Christian, real right wing nut hoping to score political points with the Christianist fanatics of his Party. Then I thought his nose was dripping 'cause the line of coke he did just before entering Congress hit him again on the downside. heh heh.
Then when I never saw actual tears, I figured he was faking emotion. Mostly he looked sour and displeased throughout the speech, reluctantly applauding, never leading the applause. Maybe he was sad because when the VP wasn't ignoring and upstaging him, he was shaking his head 'no' at Boehner's whispered aside.
I thought Boehner was weeping with regret because Francis was the first in the string of popes he's invited to speak before Congress, even when not Speaker, who accepted.
Then I thought it was the natural reaction of a maudlin drunk. Then I thought they were the crocodile tears of a pseudo-Christian, real right wing nut hoping to score political points with the Christianist fanatics of his Party. Then I thought his nose was dripping 'cause the line of coke he did just before entering Congress hit him again on the downside. heh heh.
Then when I never saw actual tears, I figured he was faking emotion. Mostly he looked sour and displeased throughout the speech, reluctantly applauding, never leading the applause. Maybe he was sad because when the VP wasn't ignoring and upstaging him, he was shaking his head 'no' at Boehner's whispered aside.
6timspalding
>4 Limelite:
Boehner has a well-known habit of weeping at the drop of a hat. This is from back in 2013!
Politico: Why Does John Boehner Cry So Much?
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2013/12/weeper-of-the-house-john-boehner-...
Mostly he looked sour and displeased throughout the speech, reluctantly applauding, never leading the applause.
I don't know. I didn't watch him. I would note, however, that the leadership had asked that people wait until the end to applaud the pope. That would have saved us from left-right-up-down gyrations at each potential ideological pinprick line.
Boehner has a well-known habit of weeping at the drop of a hat. This is from back in 2013!
Politico: Why Does John Boehner Cry So Much?
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2013/12/weeper-of-the-house-john-boehner-...
Mostly he looked sour and displeased throughout the speech, reluctantly applauding, never leading the applause.
I don't know. I didn't watch him. I would note, however, that the leadership had asked that people wait until the end to applaud the pope. That would have saved us from left-right-up-down gyrations at each potential ideological pinprick line.
7Limelite
>5 Limelite:
Yeah, I know. But he's been on "booze watch" long before that. As for the bigoted old white folks faction that's in control of the Republican Party, they're long sick of him watering down their Tea.
https://boehnerbooze.wordpress.com/
This message referring to the now-Speaker is a laffer on the Fox fans and the rest of the Hillary-haters who insist her private Sec'y of State e-mail account held classified info for which she should be "criminalized."
Yeah, I know. But he's been on "booze watch" long before that. As for the bigoted old white folks faction that's in control of the Republican Party, they're long sick of him watering down their Tea.
https://boehnerbooze.wordpress.com/
This message referring to the now-Speaker is a laffer on the Fox fans and the rest of the Hillary-haters who insist her private Sec'y of State e-mail account held classified info for which she should be "criminalized."
"He is louche, alcoholic, lazy, and without any commitment to any principle," Sidney Blumenthal wrote to Clinton, who was then secretary of state, The Hill reports."The public deserve to know what's on Hillary's private e-mail," howl the Republican witch hunters. "You betcha!" says the scandal-hungry public.
The email — dated Nov. 2, 2010 — was among 7,000 released late Monday by the State Department.
Boehner was elected speaker after that victory. He is now in his third two-year term.
"His hold is insecure," Blumenthal said. "He is not Newt Gingrich, the natural leader of a 'revolution,' riding the crest into power. He is careworn and threadbare, banal and hollow, holding nobody's enduring loyalty.
"Boehner is beholden and somewhat scared of his base. He twitches when they make gestures that might undermine his position. His impulse is to hand out money."
In response, Clinton only said, "Thx, as always, for your insights."
8John5918
>3 timspalding: does this mean we can take the Merton books out of the closet again?
Are Merton's books in the closet in the USA? That's a serious question, as to my knowledge he is well-respected elsewhere in the world. "Merton is widely viewed today as one of the two or three most influential peacemakers in the entire Catholic tradition" (cf NCR article cited below).
>4 Limelite: I lump it in Social Justice, since I don't think the Pope intimated social justice only for American citizens, rather the vulnerable citizens worldwide.
Agreed. Catholic Social Thought is high on this pope's agenda.
As a matter of record, here's a transcript of the speech.
Edited to add: How the Grauniad sees it:
'We were once foreigners': pope attacks Trump brand of migrant demonization
BBC also highlights the migrant issue, which is currently of key interest in Europe, not only the USA:
Pope urges 'humane' US migrant response
BBC also has an article on Dorothy Day, who might not be so well known outside Catholic and US circles:
Pope Francis puts the spotlight on activist Dorothy Day
The National Catholic Reporter in the USA headlines the common good (Francis, citing Day and Merton, pushes Congress to pursue common good) and also runs an article on Day and Merton for those who do not know who they are (Day and Merton: the Catholic radicals Francis cited).
Are Merton's books in the closet in the USA? That's a serious question, as to my knowledge he is well-respected elsewhere in the world. "Merton is widely viewed today as one of the two or three most influential peacemakers in the entire Catholic tradition" (cf NCR article cited below).
>4 Limelite: I lump it in Social Justice, since I don't think the Pope intimated social justice only for American citizens, rather the vulnerable citizens worldwide.
Agreed. Catholic Social Thought is high on this pope's agenda.
As a matter of record, here's a transcript of the speech.
Edited to add: How the Grauniad sees it:
'We were once foreigners': pope attacks Trump brand of migrant demonization
BBC also highlights the migrant issue, which is currently of key interest in Europe, not only the USA:
Pope urges 'humane' US migrant response
BBC also has an article on Dorothy Day, who might not be so well known outside Catholic and US circles:
Pope Francis puts the spotlight on activist Dorothy Day
The National Catholic Reporter in the USA headlines the common good (Francis, citing Day and Merton, pushes Congress to pursue common good) and also runs an article on Day and Merton for those who do not know who they are (Day and Merton: the Catholic radicals Francis cited).
